Thanks for writing this. This is exactly how I feel. Since 7th October 2023, my 2 sons and my son-in-law have all done around 250 days of active service each. My SIL is in at the moment and when he finishes PG, my 2 sons will have to leave their families and jobs to do 10 weeks of miluim. I thought I was doing a lot when I had to do 40 days a year, every year, when I was a combat reservist. Back then we also moaned about the fact that the burden wasn't being shared equally. Today though, the feeling is that we can't carry on like this any longer. I find it difficult to get on with my brother at the moment whose sons and sons-in-law have avoided military service by going to Yeshivah. I had it out with him a few months ago. I know that he is not too comfortable with the whole situation as he was in a combat unit (as was our late father who fought in the War of Independence) but still I find it difficult to relate to my nephews and nephews in law as I hold them partially responsible for the fact that my own sons and SIL have to shoulder the burden that they have shirked.
it is obviously extremely hard to have a son fighting, and risking his life, and I am extremely sympathetic and grateful. But the fact that your son is doing it is not logically a reason why a Charedi has to make the same sacrifice and have the same worry about their sons. Your argument is not logical; its purely emotional. Charedim are not forcing your son to serve; their perspective is that anyone who wants to learn Torah all day should be able to. They're completely consistent. Your world chooses to combine learning and service, and you do that because you want to, and you believe it's right. If it's too painful to have sons fighting, then send them to Yeshivas that aren't Hesder. Or start pushing to stop the draft entirely. But you obviously feel that it's worth it, and that's your right, but Charedim are entitled to feel differently as long as they're not being inconsistent. It is illogical when you scapegoat the Charedim for not having the same worries about their kids that you do for yours. That might resonate emotionally, but is actually not compelling at all.
I am amazed by your comment. The country needs hundreds of thousands of soldiers. Charedim also want there to be an army with hundreds of thousands of soldiers. By what right do they demand that everyone else except them provides for this? Is Moshe Rabbeinu's argument to the Bnei Gad one of emotion rather than logic and values?
Meanwhile, Charedim, by their refusal to serve, are forcing everyone else to serve for much longer.
You're right they want there to be an army, but they're not demanding that any Hesder students are drafted. The idea of Hesder came internally, it wasn't forced by the Charedim. So they're not being inconsistent. They have no problem with your son having the same exemption as they have.
So it's not like they have no worries for their sons, but they want yours to risk their lives.
BTW, I think many of them (I subscribe to this also) don't think anyone should be forcibly drafted, even Chilonim.
If there are financial incentives, as there are now, many people would still serve. Even now, DL don't have to serve, they can learn Torah all day instead, but they choose to serve, because they view it as a Mitzvah. So not much would change if there's no draft.
So who should serve in the army? There is a reason why most small countries in the world have compulsory military service.
Does it bother that 1/4 of the country feels no need to make any physical contribution to the country whatsoever, all while demanding free handouts? That doesn't sound very consistent to me.
Thank you, Simcha. I can definitely understand how this can seem insensitive and hypocritical to those being drafted. But the article is clear that this was just a very tone deaf political decision by ONE member of Kenneset, and NOT the position of the Hareidi public as a whole, and not necessarily that politician's hashkafa about which sectors of society should serve and which not. He was simply do a technical function of being a mouthpiece for the DEFENSE MINISTER who wasn't available at that time to speak.
"Meir Porush responded in the Knesset plenum on behalf of Defense Minister Yoav Gallant and the government."
Serving in the draft should not be one, as it's not in most countries. It is a communist concept to force all citizens to spend 3 years of their life serving the state.
Nearly all small countries have compulsory military service. Especially ones that are surrounded by enemies who outnumber them. It has nothing to do with communism.
I agree with Yehuda that your logic succumbs to irrational emotion whenever you start talking about the Chareidi "demand that everyone else except them" serve in the IDF. There are no such demands coming from that sector. Ever. Of course you can argue against the moral integrity of their conscientious-objector orientation, in terms of national responsibility. But the constant slip into demonizing them as being deviously coercive to get the rest of the country to die for them is not only downright wrong, but intellectually sloppy.
How on earth can you possibly dispute this? They want there to be an army, they want there to be mandatory conscription, their own MKs vote for this, but they simultaneously want a universal exemption for their community.
Screw consistency. This is a life or death situation. Any abled bodied young male who sits idly by and allows others to fight and be killed deserves nothing but contempt.
If correct, you're comment is the ultimate proof that charedim in Israel do not consider themselves part of the collective of Am Yisrael b'artzo.
If you live here you have collective responsibilities and obligations. If you only think you have to look out for your own sectors interests, if you dont feel the responsibility, then you are not part of the klal.
But the Charedi are being inconsistent, and your position is a myopic distorted fiction. To be consistent, and for your argument to hold water, the Charedi should pay their own way, and not rely on welfare from the Israeli government (or the equivalent Medicaid and welfare in the US). If they refuse the responsibility that comes with Israeli citizenship, then they shouldn't be demanding the financial benefits. Simply put, they are simultaneously draft dodgers, welfare queens, and self-serving abusers of Jewish law and morality
More than that, the traditional understanding of the שבט לוי type exemption as expressed by the רמב"ם is limited to those elite individuals who cast off worldly concerns and don't take community money.
without all the ugly hyperbole, this is the only sound claim against those who principally don't serve in the IDF - that perhaps commensurate with their lack of contribution to the nation in this realm, they should forfeit government benefits in other realms.
I accept your criticism about "ugly hyperbole." If I was a more gifted writer, perhaps I could have skipped them and yet made my point even more emphatically memorable with a simple and accurate description. Such blogs serve more to express feelings than to actually change anyone's. Better to try than remain silent.
Its not inconsistent. They argue that anyone who wants to learn (or maybe anyone), should be able to get these benefits without serving. They have no problem with DL using that logic also,
From personal experience, the harsh attitude of the Haredim toward anyone not like them has nothing to do with the state. Here’s the story: A few years before the big snowfall we had in Safed in 2015, a large portion of the tenants in our building changed. Haredim moved in, and non-Haredim moved out—though some, like us, remained. One morning, all of Safed woke up to 50 cm of snow. One tenant, a ger tzedek from the U.S., acted as any decent person should—and as is customary in America—by starting to shovel the snow from the building’s entrances, through the shared courtyard, and out to the street. After working alone for over an hour, he knocked on his neighbors’ doors and asked them to join. Their shared response to him was: ‘You’re here to serve us.
"Haredi society makes second-class citizens of themselves regarding their responsibilities as citizens, while arrogating to themselves the rights and privileges of other citizens who fulfil those responsibilities, often without receiving many of the benefits."
After several hours of reflection on the accusation that I am a liar, it occurred to me to judge "LEKAF ZEHUT" the one who calls me such. And the obligation is to publicize it.
(1) These are Haredim who have internet access and visit Rabbi Natan’s blog. Therefore, they live as Western Haredim who serve God through Torah and derech eretz.
(2) Since they are unfamiliar with Haredim who behave this way toward non-Haredim—and this contradicts halacha, morality, and derech eretz—they must conclude that my words are lies.
(3) Since this blog continuously cites Rabbi Natan precisely on this issue, I will present several cases from recent years in Safed that anyone can easily verify in the city’s own records.
(A) Several decades ago, a woman from France bought a ruin at the edge of the Old City, near "HaNasi" Street. She renovated the building at her own expense and donated it to the Safed municipality so that, with the help of the "Rashi" Foundation, they could establish a shelter for "underprivileged children." Some of these children had no electricity at home, some also no gas, and some had no place to do homework or prepare for tests and exams. Some also had learning difficulties. They set up an institution that provided meals, counselors, social workers, teachers, and more for all the neighborhood children in need.
Then came an election. Opposite this institution lived an admor. Apparently, a deal was struck with one candidate before the elections. On election night, municipal workers came and removed all the building's contents; The admor’s Hasidim converted the former help place into a Beit Midrash, with "Aron Kodesh", "sifrei Torah", and more. The next day, the staff and children came to the usual place for help, meals, and study, only to find...
The Rashi Foundation contacted the municipality, which ignored the appeal. The foundation threatened to withdraw all support for Safed unless the issue was resolved. Since the Rashi Foundation assists children studying for matriculation exams—and not Haredim, whose curriculum does not include matriculation—this was no threat to the municipal coalition. And so, the Rashi Foundation withdrew all its support from the Safed municipality.
(B) At the time of the second story, I was the neighborhood chairman. At its edge was a non-Haredi kindergarten. Due to demographic changes in Safed, the number of children in the kindergarten dwindled. The municipality decided to close it and send the children to a kindergarten 30 minutes away on foot by children. Up to this point, the process was "reasonable." However:
(1) The kindergarten to which our neighborhood children were transferred had fewer children than ours.
(2) Its area was smaller than that of our neighborhood kindergarten.
(3) Our neighborhood kindergarten was handed over to a certain Hasidic group, which opened a Talmud Torah there. It had fewer children than the closed kindergarten.
(4) None of the children in the new Talmud Torah lived in our neighborhood. Yet the municipality, funded by taxpayers—including residents of our neighborhood—provided transportation for the Talmud Torah children, whose parents did not pay as much in municipal taxes as our residents. Here, everyone worked; there, no one did.
(5) However, the municipality did not provide transportation for the children of our neighborhood whose kindergarten was closed.
(C) To avoid listing many more cases of theft and thereby branding Safed’s Haredi leadership as presumptive thieves (=HAZAKA), I will stop here. For additional stories about theft perpetrated by Haredim in Safed, feel free to visite Safed and speak with anyone non-haredi.
In other words: You decided to tell the entire forum: 'I am a liar and a malicious slanderer of Haredim. How do you know? Were you here and heard them say different things? Were you here and do you know that I wasn’t present? No. Rather: You know all the Haredim in my neighborhood and you know they are good-hearted people who don’t live at the expense of others. And therefore, you write: You are 100% a liar!
In this post of yours, you have lowered the bar to a level never before seen here: calling someone a 'liar' simply because they testify to something that doesn’t seem logical to the commenter. This is hateful speech directed at a private individual—toward me—and is utterly unconstructive. It is a coercive and silencing behavior, perfectly aligned with the very article in question. The condescension and dismissal of Haredim by Religious Zionists
In matters of literal life and death? How would you feel if it’s your 39 year old son with 5 kids who was killed in action?
60,000 eligible and only 600 enlisted?
What percentage are doing ביקור חולים to these injured תלמידי חכמים? Or ניחום אבלים?
Or worse….לווית המת?
These aren’t ’kitchen table’ issues about the economy or taxes or even medicine. These do not interfere with the observance of a halachic life (unless one does not do anything to prevent loss of life. e.g. don’t call 911 or hatzala on any holiday)
It’s about your ability to live life in a free society that tolerates idiotic and bigoted opinions. That doesn’t mean they should not be noted to be stupid and evil. It hopefully will stir those with the ability to discern and critically think that a change of attitude and life is needed.
That last sentence is ‘code word’ for Haredim to respond that it means a direct threat to halachic life.
It boils down to: can one be שומר מצוות and a soldier? A Doctor? A lawyer? Do I need a rebbe to tell me what I should do to support my family? (Oops, that last one is out of bounds 😄)
You're mistaken about the idea that Dati voters are abandoning Smotrich in favour of Bennett or Lieberman. In reality, both of them are widely despised in the Dati community and are seen as political traitors. While Smotrich may currently be unpopular, any loss of support is more likely to benefit Ben Gvir than centrists or left-leaning figures — meaning we’ll just end up right back where we started.
Frankly, I think the real frustration among Dati voters should be directed inward, toward elements of their own communities — the ones who actually serve, work, and fight for a government that continues to sell them out. At least the average Charedi genuinely believes he's doing the right thing by listening to his Rabbanim. The Dati camp, on the other hand, keeps propping up a system that's actively harming them.
Yes, let's have a purge of anyone who doesn't vote as we do! Surely they can't have good reasons for doing so.
I don't think "traitor" is a word anyone associates with Lieberman. Religious voters tend not to like him because he has a regular practice of provoking religion.
You also seen unaware that Ben-Gvir and his people are less tolerant of draft-dodging than Smotrich.
I don't think this detracts from your main points, which I can't argue with, but one thing: If the Anglo-Charedim you know are taking "ski vacations to Georgia" (or whatever), they're not exactly representative even of Anglo-Charedi olim, and are *certainly* not representative of native Israeli charedim at all, almost all of whom couldn't take trips abroad if they wanted to (and they generally don't).
Again, it doesn't really affect your point, but we should realize that we look at things from our own perspective.
It was an example, if they don't take time in Georgia they do it in Gan Sacker, what matters is the point of taking time off while others are fighting.
No, I've been to the Alps once, decades ago, for a family event for relatives who live in Switzerland, and it wasn't skiing season. They are lovely, though.
Though not quite the same thing, imagine how you, as a tax paying, and/or law abiding citizen of your country or city would feel were to find out that your neighbor was shirking their responsibilities in the same areas. Would you continune associating with them?
Further, how many of the 'chareidim' are misquoting and/or misinterpreting halacha to excuse their failure to participate in the national defense of Israel? To me, that's chilul Hashem. While it may not be my place to punish them for their violation of 'al ta-amod al dam reyecha', it's certainly my place to not take their actions as acceptable. Silence is accession, and I will not accede to their (lack of) actions.
You say you cant punish them - Why is it not the states duty to punish them for not serving like everyone else.
I wonder if Bennet and Lieberman could do anything about it? OR do we have to just hold out and wait for when the others in society say "the charedim are not going we are also not going" - then it hits the fan big time and everyone will realize something must be done.
Saul - note my comment "While it may not be my place to punish them for their violation of 'al ta-amod al dam reyecha' ... " (I believe that to be Hashems provice), I did not say we can't punish them for violations of Israeli secular law. There's an expression "No play, no pay". I would be inclined to cut off their benefits.
And, at the risk of going off topic a bit, being that the Supreme Court ALSO doesn't play by the rules, I would also cut off THEIR salaries. What would you say about that? Money talks and B..S walks, as per the popular expression.
Without a constitution, where the supreme court will be bound by the set of laws and rights. the supreme court is the arbitrator what is right , what is democratic and they to protect those from discriminations. Want to keep the supreme court in check write a constitution.
If you cant - don't cry wolf when you are leaving ALL Isreali citizens rights to a group of people.
And what makes them qualified to decide what is right on every issue? All they have is a narrow legal education. Have they studied ethics, political systems, finance etc.? What makes their opinion on what is right better than mine? What are the guard rails for the Supreme Court? The answer is none.
If you think you have a better sense of ethics or what is right then by all means run for the supreme court.
If you make it great, keep in mind most charedim think or imagine they are smarter then the supreme court. You will have a lot of competition. However if none of you make it, as just maybe the rest of Israel does not see it the way you see it - you are obligated have to listen to them -
Run for Supreme Court? Where do you live? Do you know how the Supreme Court justices are chosen? The sitting justices have a veto on any new justices. The Supreme Court justices are selected in a completely undemocratic process which results in a uniformly left wing court which has values that are anathema to a large part of the country.
The Supreme Court in Israel already has overturned a basic law which according to them is constitutional. So yes they have already overturned constitutional laws.
That is the situation in Israel. Tell me how did they get these powers? Was there even a debate about the judicial revolution? No. It passed in the middle of the night 32-19 by MKs who didn’t understand what they were voting for.
Why? Because the political reality is that that the hareidi parties have a voice in the government. Those running the government, as a whole, believe that the hareidi position is reasonable enough for the health of the State. Obviously most of you don't. But that doesnt mean you should entertain punishing them for exercising their political rights/
To some people who want to stay in power the Charedi position is reasonable. What about the rest of society why do they have to risk their lives at the front and cry bitter tears when a loved one falls. To them that is blatant discrimination. I have to risk my life and you don't?
Sad and unfortunate but that os their decision to make. Will you be stopping to take Chareidi groups at the museum or is Chareidi money still green enough?
Here's a fun fact we learned in a tour at the Bank of Israel: The 50 NIS bill is green for the same reason as the old 1 NIS bill was: Both the Rambam (on the latter) and Tchernichovsky (on the former) were doctors, and green is the color of medicine. And that's hardly all: The old 500 shekel bill was red because Lord Rothschild had wineries; the old 5 NIS bill was blue because Levi Eshkol built the National Water Carrier; the old 10 NIS and new 100 NIS bills are gold because of the names of Golda Meir and Leia Goldberg; and more. Fun!
Have you not heard of the military draft, AKA conscription? Does the word "cantonist" ring a bell, maybe? Would the Chareidim flee into the forests if the government got their act together? Would they cut off their fingers?
I think Chareidim do see it that way. After all, there is a conscious effort in Tzahal to Israelify the soldiers.
I think they are indeed seeing today's issues through the glasses of 150 years ago.
But then, the entire Chareidi strategy to Orthodoxy is designed for Chutz laAretz, where the "them" aren't Jews. They haven't dealt with the transition from isolating from a Them who aren't Jewish to one where Jewish Unity and perishah min hatzibbur (which no less than a kind of heresy, according to Rambam, Hil' Teshuvah 3:6,11) are involved.
(Just as Mod-O has yet to deal with a new strategy in a world where Post-Modernism, not Modernism, holds sway. Or with the realization that they and Dati Le'umi actually embrace entirely different strategies...)
And if I may be so bold, neither MO nor, to a lesser extent, DL poskim seem to wish to adapt to very different circumstances either. (And I am *not* talking about trendy social issues but ordinary halakhic questions.)
MO posqim really can't. They live next door to an imploding Conservative movement, which is a very loud an obvious warning scaring people away from fitting pesaq to the times.
The whole reason why we accepted the pesaq that declared swordfish treif is still with us.
DL is an interesting social group, because the lack of any real competition from a Conservative movement, it goes much farther left than Mod-O. (Or Micha Berger's personal ability to say "eilu va'eilu".) Contrast much of DL from the treatment YCT / Open Orthodoxy receives from the YU crowd.
Yes, obviously things are different in Israel. Swordfish is certified by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate- I've eaten it. Ditto locusts, non-glatt meat, kitniyot, etc. But every now and then even in Israel you see some reluctance to take "bold" steps (that aren't really so bold). And I'm not talking about au currant, post-modern things, like women leading tefillot or gay stuff- what you include under "left." Much of what I have in mind specifically relates to the State of Israel, or at the very least the practical results of it, for example different edot living side-by-side for the first time. Say, the text of Nachem. Or kitniyot-related matters, and so on.
By the way, even in the US Conservative Judaism should have little impact on these matters. I remember a blog back in the day having two extensive discussions, one on tekhelet and one on when to start saying v'ten tal u-matar, and then one of the blog hosts asked a friend of his who sits on the Conservative halakha committee about these issues, and the latter answered that of course they never came up. Conservativism will deal with things that apply to their people, like driving on Shabbat or intermarriage. They're mostly happy to let Nachem stay as it is.
Certainly not. The original commenter stated that it was "their decision to make." I merely reminded him that a functioning state has the unrestricted ability to conscript soldiers. If that were the case in Israel,, it would not be "their (the conscripts') decision to make."
What does this mean? " . . . and are more-or-less trapped in their way of life." I cannot fathom that an adult with agency is trapped in any way of life.
I fully understand the deep emotional pain and frustration that many are carrying right now, and I don’t want to minimize that in any way. But I do think it’s worth pointing out that withdrawing from friendships without communicating directly — and then asking someone else to explain or justify that withdrawal — can come across as emotionally immature. Communication is the way to go. I imagine different people have different feelings, some are at peace with the "mixed" relationships and some/many are not. Should every chareidi person assume his DL friends despise him? Can't it be more nuanced than that?
Is this just part of your general attempt to marginalize chareidi society and you are doing your part to make sure all DL people break contact with chareidim?
Oy. Your first part sounded fair enough. I also feel its wrong that men with exemptions from the army are allowed to travel abroad for anything but clear family needs. But then you descend into your "we're better Jews than them" shebang. Haval, Haval.
1. Pinning the D'L world down to Giyus Chareidim is simply not understanding them. There are a bunch of issues that are higher on the priority list then Giyus Chareidim. Also emotionally, the way Bagatz and Shabak behave, create much more revulsion and anger then Chareidim not participating in this war.
2. We went through some trauma's that are much deeper and much more significant then Giyus Chareidim. Oslo and Hitnatkut for example. These are trauma's and pain that keep hitting as back, and in which the media, the ppl in power keep stepping on time and time again.
Yes, Giyus Chareidim is though, especially seeing the so called Olam Hatorah ignoring big parts of the Torah, and ignoring the plight of Am Israel. But please don't speak in name of the Dati Leumi world as if this is the only thing he cares about.
"The people of Israel are in a long-term struggle for survival."
The physical survival of the people of Israel has been promised many times in the Torah and by the prophets of Israel, and it is therefore heretical to say that their physical survival as a people is in danger.
It is classic zionist propaganda to try to obfuscate the difference between the holy "am Yisroel" and the heretical "medina" by writing "people of Israel" instead of "state of Israel".
The people of Israel are not in any physical struggle for survival; they are in a purely spiritual struggle as always, and any apparent physical danger is the result of spiritual shortcomings. See second paragraph of kriyas shama, the tochacha in parshas Bechukosay, and the Ramban at the end of pharshas Bo, as well as many other places in the written and oral Torah.
Good grief. Sometimes I wonder if you are actually a non-charedi trolling as a charedi in order to depict charedim in the worst possible light.
The survival of the Jewish People AS A WHOLE is not in danger. After all, there's millions of Jews in America! But there is absolutely no guarantee from Hashem that hundreds of thousands of Jews in Israel will not be killed. Heck, if you believe that the creation of Israel guaranteed the safety of everyone in it, then you should be calling it Reishis tzmichas geulaseinu!
That is not what you wrote. You wrote "The people of Israel," which means the people of Israel as a whole, "are in a long term struggle for survival."
If that is not what you meant, please write more clearly. The actual meaning of what you wrote is not something beyond what you would normally write, so there was no reason for a reader to assume you meant what you explained in your comment here.
כלל ישראל as a whole has a הבטחה of נצחיות, but that doesn't mean millions of jew can't be killed. Of course our physical survival is at stake.
How do you separate a country from its people? Of course the government sucks and needs major improvement but that doesn't mean that right now fighting for the country as a whole isn't necessary to save jews, regardless of who currently holds the levers of power. If you think that there is no physical struggle than your head is in the clouds and you should wake up very fast.
"but that doesn't mean millions of jew can't be killed."
That is not what he wrote. He wrote "The people of Israel," which means the people of Israel as a whole, "are in a long term struggle for survival. See my reply to his comment.
"How do you separate a country from its people?"
The people of Israel have lived without a land for almost 2000 years. The people of Israel have no land; when they behave, G-d allows them to dwell in His land.
I was reffering to the current situation. Right now fighting for the country is fighting for the Jewish settlement here. One cannot fight for the jews in the land of Israel without fighting for Israel the country.
Things functioned reasonably well until Aharon Barak upset the applecart and no one stopped him.
Writing a constitution sounds nice, but until the Supreme Court is reset, even that won't succeed. The court needs to be pushed back to its proper functions as the laws stand now. The judical reform was all about that effort, but was blocked by a TOTALLY out of control and unrestrained court. There needs to be some means of putting things back to normal, some process that they cannot overrule and/or ignore. Money talks.
As an oleh who moved here at 59, I am not judging others for not serving. Especially other olim, even those who came at ages when they could have served. After all, they could have stayed back in their prior home and also not served. Their cup is half full, in that sense.
And as for born chareidim, are they any less tinoqos shenishbu (roughly: products of a flawed upbringing, and not considered by halakahah to be fully culpable) than the guy who spends his Shabbatot surfing off Hilton Beach in Tel Aviv?
It's the sense of entitlement that gets me. Not buying the line that they shouldn't be serving... Who wouldn't believe their own leaders giving them a rationale for avoiding something they don't want to do? But those among the Chareidim talk about their own mesiras nefesh or protective effects exceeding that of those in the army.... Stolen glory of the heroism of those who are actually willing to die for the safety of others...
But frankly, this country's whole culture is biased in favor of Koach haNetilah (the Will to Take) over Koach haNesinah (the Will to Give). Just wait in line for your turn once and it's obvious. The Dati Le'umi community also sees Avodat Hashem and Bitachon like a Divine Kaspomat (ATM) system. Kach ideology and Smotritch are nothing if not Koach haNetilah as a political movement.
It's particularly anomalous in the Chareidi case. A community that is founded in part by ignoring the expiration date on Rav Dessler's idea that we need to invest as many young men as possible into yeshiva to have the few that will replace the gedolim lost in the Shoah are so far from such core foundational parts of his ideology.
"But frankly, this country's whole culture is biased in favor of Koach haNetilah (the Will to Take) over Koach haNesinah (the Will to Give)."
That's the stereotype, but of course there are many, many Israelis who don't feel that way. A few pushy people can ruin an image.
"The Dati Le'umi community also sees Avodat Hashem and Bitachon like a Divine Kaspomat (ATM) system. Kach ideology and Smotritch are nothing if not Koach haNetilah as a political movement."
OK, you completely lost me there. I don't see any of that.
"Rav Dessler's idea that we need to invest as many young men as possible into yeshiva to have the few that will replace the gedolim lost in the Shoah"
Which would be a little more believable if (leaving aside that their view of what Europe was like is largely a myth) we've ever seen a single gadol produced from that system. So far we haven't, and it's been eighty years. Meanwhile, the MO and DL worlds have produced plenty of gedolim.
"Which would be a little more believable if (leaving aside that their view of what Europe was like is largely a myth) we've ever seen a single gadol produced from that system"
That's because those gedolim matured under the pre-Dessler system. Wait another decade before the post-war generation becomes nonagenarian and assumes the leadership.
Nachum, you know from other media where I am in life as I write this. As an Oleh of all of 3-1/2 months, I am very frustrated with people who don't know what waiting one's turn on line is. Or the assertiveness needed to get help from alleged "customer-support" or government "ombudsmen" or even social workers. Nothing ordered ever arrives exactly as ordered, or services rendered....
(It's why native borns are called Sabras, after all.)
The amount of assertiveness and constant vigilance needed to get anything done in this country -- while not becoming an aggressive person oneself! -- makes one miss the old country.
This country is "looking out for number one" writ FAR FAR larger than where I came from.
---
There is very little "ana avda deQBH" in Israeli religious talk. Even as the DL community takes pride in their willingness to pay a steep price for the People and the Land, they still expect Chassidic Style Bitachon getting Hashem to provide their happiness. Plenty of Segulah talk. Judaism in Israel speaks like we think "Avodas Hashem" means doing the rituals that gets *Him* to do avodah for *me*!
A simple anecdotal "evidence": How many DL weddings have you been to lately where "Tamid Ohev Oti" (a/k/a "Od Yoter Tov") was not played?
And what is more Koach haNetilah than voting for Smotrich, or even the Gush Emunim hashkafah? Not just turning the "grabbing" of land, but turning into *the* core value which drives more votes than fostering Shemiras Shabbos or kashrus, or even basic Ethical Monotheism.
The US has more gashmi problems with Koach haNetilah.
But the idea of Yahadus as aimed at building an Olam haYedidus (as R Wolbe put it in Bein Sheish leAsor) simply isn't heard. Even by the very people who are moserei nefesh for chessed.
What can I say -- we are the "me generation" and those raised in its shadow.
There was once an article on Cracked.com that gave me a valuable piece of advice: When you move to a new country, there's a tendency to blame things on the new surroundings. The author, who moved from Australia to California, described how he once dropped some eggs and automatically said, "That would never happen in Australia!" before realizing how silly that is.
So one thing to remember is that people can be just as ugly anywhere in the world. And hoo boy is that true of Jews, especially Orthodox ones. And you, congratulations, have moved to a *country full of* Jews, with a *lot* of religious ones. It's just that they don't blend into a large gentle gentile minority here.
The other thing, of course, is that different countries are different countries. Not necessarily better or worse, different. For example, you're an Ashkenazi Jew? Congratulations, you're a minority. (You're from a Western country? You're in a *tiny* minority.) Multiply that by ten million people, and you're going to see a *lot* of differences.
And, of course, language and attitude differences make a difference. I remember my shock when my then-roommate, American born and raised and a gentle guy, began screaming at the cable company rep within seconds of his call starting...before I realized that that's what happens.
Now to the rest:
Maybe people don't talk about being avadim of Hashem here so much. (Nor do they do elsewhere. When asked his profession by a prominent American charedi rabbi, my father responded "eved Hashem" and it went right over the rabbi's head.) But Eretz Yisrael is acquired by yissurim. People *live* it. All those soldiers are being avadim of Hashem. I think a bit of over-correction to the "Tamid ohev oti" (which is even popular in secular circles) is more than called for. We need it. And we need a lot of "Yihye tov." The alternative is unthinkable. That's why Israel is literally officially one of the happiest countries on Earth- number 8, I believe.
I *really* have to protest the following, though:
"Not just turning the "grabbing" of land, but turning into *the* core value which drives more votes than fostering Shemiras Shabbos or kashrus, or even basic Ethical Monotheism"
This is a cliche of the highest order. Yes, even Norman Lamm zt"l would say it, but that doesn't make it true. And that's leaving aside that the Torah requires us to give our lives to conquer Israel, or the fact that the "grabbing" of land literally saves lives, which, last I checked, is the supreme value in Judaism, far more than some "basic ethics". People vote based on a host of issues and determine what's important. The fact that they are not on board with giving up land as much as some American MO and Israeli DL gedolim of the past generation or two were does not make them bad people, or indicate that they are uninterested in spreading religion.
"There was once an article on Cracked.com that gave me a valuable piece of advice: When you move to a new country, there's a tendency to blame things on the new surroundings. The author, who moved from Australia to California, described how he once dropped some eggs and automatically said, "That would never happen in Australia!" before realizing how silly that is."
It's really an old Yiddish joke but from kind of the opposite perspective. When many Polish Jews moved to Germany after WW1, they were eager to show their family and friends back home in Poland how much more advanced and ‘vorgeschritten’ their lives are in Germany. One such teenager wrote to a friend “Vi ken mehn tzigleychen Poylin tzi Daitshland? Tzvelf yuhr in Poylin geleybt nisht gevoren Bar Mitzve, eyn yuhr in Daitshland shoyn gevoren Bar Mitzve!” = “How can one compare (backwards)Poland to (progressive/futuristic)Germany? Twelve years I lived in Poland I never became Bar Mitzvah, one year in Germany already I’m Bar Mitzvah!”
Your first part is simply objectively wrong -- it's not the same everywhere. Wait for a bus in Israel, in the US and in England and get back to me. Or wait on line at a mom-n-pop store checkout.
Sorry, it's not true. There is a very real difference, and in this area, Israeli culture is inferior.
An American learning at Kol haTorah was being called back to the US by his parents. They said there were plenty of yeshivos closer to home. So, he asked R SZ Auerbach zt"l what he should do. RSZA replied that he had to do a cheshbon hanefesh: Which kind of nisyonos was he more equipped to handle -- those bein adam laMaqom or those bein adam lachaveiro?
I thought at the time that this was the issue RSZA was referring to. Having moved here and busy dealing with a government where even the social workers in the welfare system act like an American state's DMV, I am all the more sure.
----
And your need to really protest my latter point... The current HaTziyonut haDatit doesn't have the platform Mizrachi did. And during that transition, the DL world somehow forgot to hold on to the Rabbanut.
But the thing about Koach haNetilah which led me to give it a Nietzschian translation of "Will to Take" is that it's not about receiving, it's bedavka about taking, about Magia Li, about how strongly one puts oneself first and sees the rest of the world in terms of resources. The way a useful resource, like Pres Trump, can be confused with his being a good person. (Although if his administration keeps on leaking Israeli attack plans to the NY Times, that'll change.)
-----
In short, I question your objectivity more than my own. No surprises there.
You were fortunate to live in a certain area of America and unfortunate not to live in others in Israel. As to government employees, I assume DMV-level competence from all to begin, including in the Rabbinate.
The Mizrachi, for decades, was basically the religious adjunct of Labor governments. They got funding for their institutions and were happy. If anything (and this is *not* a political thing), there is a *lot* more kiruv going on by DL now than there was before. Saying "Oh, things were much better then..."...well, you know what Kohelet says about that.
As to the Rabbinate, that has nothing to do with any supposed focus on "settlements" but with Shas coming into existence and Aguda joining governments.
Respectfully, it sounds like you might not have lived here long enough to see the full picture. I understand that right now your life revolves around standing in line to get a piece of paper from a particular government clerk so you can stand in line to hand it to the one sitting across the hall. That phase will become a much less dominant part of your life...
Israelis are culturally different, but not less cultured... The same person who may cut the line at the Makolet to buy a package of pitot will give it away to the poor guy standing outside the store. There it is all polite and cultured [and often fake], here it is hot sweaty and real.
Yes, it is a weird place where everyone pushes ahead of an old man to get in the bus, and then (if he can get on at all) stand to offer him a seat.
But you do have to be vigilant on line at the maqolet or bus stop. And it is not just the government, it is every service industry from medicine to home repair. You spend so much of more your waking hours with a need to be vigilant and assertive... You see me as not having been here long enough to get it (although I am repeating an observation I made during visits that had me not making Aliyah until after 7.10). Bit I see it as you having acclimated to the bothersome.
Of course the Israeli is spending more energy on making sure "I get mine" than someone who remains in the countries us "Anglos" came from. It is the only way to get things done at all.
Yesterday an old man with a cane shoved his way on to the train, blocking the rest of us from getting off, and yelled at an old woman for being upset at him.
One of the soldiers he shoved then helped him into a seat.
I'm afraid you might be dealing with a lot of new situations in a new language. Give it thirty or forty years and you'll be fine. :-)
How does telling a story about someone shoving his way onto the train NOT make my point? My whole point is that Israeli culture is weaker on things like line waiting, stronger on Chassidic-version Bitachon, more enamored of Segulos, and I will add now another example, having a more robust black and gray market, all of which are symptoms of a downward spiral into development of Koach haNetilah. (Being symptoms of the past iterations and causes of the next one.) In relation to what I was saying, It doesn't matter if the person looking out for themselves to the expense of others, in contrast to maavir al midosav, is the youth or the older man.
You also seem to have missed where I said in response to Chana Rachel that my Aliyah was delayed by my disliking what I became when I had to push back so often. This wasn't an opinion formed because "kol hahaschalos qashos", as it predates even planning to begin.
(What actually caused me to change my mind would take this conversation yet further from the point. If you are curious, you can reach me privately.)
To relate my point back to what it was saying about RNS's post... One who lives in a country with so much emphasis (compared to many other cultures) on making sure I get what I can and am not a frier shouldn't be surprised when another community takes that approach when it comes to not serving if they don't have to. Even if your community isn't weak on Koach haNesinah when it comes to building the Medinah. All it takes is not having that building a central value.
Thanks for writing this. This is exactly how I feel. Since 7th October 2023, my 2 sons and my son-in-law have all done around 250 days of active service each. My SIL is in at the moment and when he finishes PG, my 2 sons will have to leave their families and jobs to do 10 weeks of miluim. I thought I was doing a lot when I had to do 40 days a year, every year, when I was a combat reservist. Back then we also moaned about the fact that the burden wasn't being shared equally. Today though, the feeling is that we can't carry on like this any longer. I find it difficult to get on with my brother at the moment whose sons and sons-in-law have avoided military service by going to Yeshivah. I had it out with him a few months ago. I know that he is not too comfortable with the whole situation as he was in a combat unit (as was our late father who fought in the War of Independence) but still I find it difficult to relate to my nephews and nephews in law as I hold them partially responsible for the fact that my own sons and SIL have to shoulder the burden that they have shirked.
it is obviously extremely hard to have a son fighting, and risking his life, and I am extremely sympathetic and grateful. But the fact that your son is doing it is not logically a reason why a Charedi has to make the same sacrifice and have the same worry about their sons. Your argument is not logical; its purely emotional. Charedim are not forcing your son to serve; their perspective is that anyone who wants to learn Torah all day should be able to. They're completely consistent. Your world chooses to combine learning and service, and you do that because you want to, and you believe it's right. If it's too painful to have sons fighting, then send them to Yeshivas that aren't Hesder. Or start pushing to stop the draft entirely. But you obviously feel that it's worth it, and that's your right, but Charedim are entitled to feel differently as long as they're not being inconsistent. It is illogical when you scapegoat the Charedim for not having the same worries about their kids that you do for yours. That might resonate emotionally, but is actually not compelling at all.
I am amazed by your comment. The country needs hundreds of thousands of soldiers. Charedim also want there to be an army with hundreds of thousands of soldiers. By what right do they demand that everyone else except them provides for this? Is Moshe Rabbeinu's argument to the Bnei Gad one of emotion rather than logic and values?
Meanwhile, Charedim, by their refusal to serve, are forcing everyone else to serve for much longer.
You're right they want there to be an army, but they're not demanding that any Hesder students are drafted. The idea of Hesder came internally, it wasn't forced by the Charedim. So they're not being inconsistent. They have no problem with your son having the same exemption as they have.
So it's not like they have no worries for their sons, but they want yours to risk their lives.
BTW, I think many of them (I subscribe to this also) don't think anyone should be forcibly drafted, even Chilonim.
They absolutely want everyone else to be forcibly drafted. Because otherwise there's no army and we're all dead.
If there are financial incentives, as there are now, many people would still serve. Even now, DL don't have to serve, they can learn Torah all day instead, but they choose to serve, because they view it as a Mitzvah. So not much would change if there's no draft.
So who should serve in the army? There is a reason why most small countries in the world have compulsory military service.
Does it bother that 1/4 of the country feels no need to make any physical contribution to the country whatsoever, all while demanding free handouts? That doesn't sound very consistent to me.
that is total conjecture
"You're right they want there to be an army, but they're not demanding that any Hesder students are drafted. "
This isn't true. UTJ demanded that Hesder students be drafted.
please share detailed, solid sources for this claim
Thank you, Simcha. I can definitely understand how this can seem insensitive and hypocritical to those being drafted. But the article is clear that this was just a very tone deaf political decision by ONE member of Kenneset, and NOT the position of the Hareidi public as a whole, and not necessarily that politician's hashkafa about which sectors of society should serve and which not. He was simply do a technical function of being a mouthpiece for the DEFENSE MINISTER who wasn't available at that time to speak.
"Meir Porush responded in the Knesset plenum on behalf of Defense Minister Yoav Gallant and the government."
Are there responsibilities for the rights to be a citizen of any country?
Serving in the draft should not be one, as it's not in most countries. It is a communist concept to force all citizens to spend 3 years of their life serving the state.
Nearly all small countries have compulsory military service. Especially ones that are surrounded by enemies who outnumber them. It has nothing to do with communism.
interesting
I agree with Yehuda that your logic succumbs to irrational emotion whenever you start talking about the Chareidi "demand that everyone else except them" serve in the IDF. There are no such demands coming from that sector. Ever. Of course you can argue against the moral integrity of their conscientious-objector orientation, in terms of national responsibility. But the constant slip into demonizing them as being deviously coercive to get the rest of the country to die for them is not only downright wrong, but intellectually sloppy.
How on earth can you possibly dispute this? They want there to be an army, they want there to be mandatory conscription, their own MKs vote for this, but they simultaneously want a universal exemption for their community.
Screw consistency. This is a life or death situation. Any abled bodied young male who sits idly by and allows others to fight and be killed deserves nothing but contempt.
If correct, you're comment is the ultimate proof that charedim in Israel do not consider themselves part of the collective of Am Yisrael b'artzo.
If you live here you have collective responsibilities and obligations. If you only think you have to look out for your own sectors interests, if you dont feel the responsibility, then you are not part of the klal.
But the Charedi are being inconsistent, and your position is a myopic distorted fiction. To be consistent, and for your argument to hold water, the Charedi should pay their own way, and not rely on welfare from the Israeli government (or the equivalent Medicaid and welfare in the US). If they refuse the responsibility that comes with Israeli citizenship, then they shouldn't be demanding the financial benefits. Simply put, they are simultaneously draft dodgers, welfare queens, and self-serving abusers of Jewish law and morality
More than that, the traditional understanding of the שבט לוי type exemption as expressed by the רמב"ם is limited to those elite individuals who cast off worldly concerns and don't take community money.
without all the ugly hyperbole, this is the only sound claim against those who principally don't serve in the IDF - that perhaps commensurate with their lack of contribution to the nation in this realm, they should forfeit government benefits in other realms.
I accept your criticism about "ugly hyperbole." If I was a more gifted writer, perhaps I could have skipped them and yet made my point even more emphatically memorable with a simple and accurate description. Such blogs serve more to express feelings than to actually change anyone's. Better to try than remain silent.
Its not inconsistent. They argue that anyone who wants to learn (or maybe anyone), should be able to get these benefits without serving. They have no problem with DL using that logic also,
Have you ever heard of this thing called "Hamas"?
From personal experience, the harsh attitude of the Haredim toward anyone not like them has nothing to do with the state. Here’s the story: A few years before the big snowfall we had in Safed in 2015, a large portion of the tenants in our building changed. Haredim moved in, and non-Haredim moved out—though some, like us, remained. One morning, all of Safed woke up to 50 cm of snow. One tenant, a ger tzedek from the U.S., acted as any decent person should—and as is customary in America—by starting to shovel the snow from the building’s entrances, through the shared courtyard, and out to the street. After working alone for over an hour, he knocked on his neighbors’ doors and asked them to join. Their shared response to him was: ‘You’re here to serve us.
????
Who would say such a thing! Its certainly nothing "hareidi"
Except it reflects how a lot of them act and think, without doubt.
It reflects no one other than that guy.
You really think no one from Dati Leumi world would make a comment like that? You guys are not Malachim either.
No, Dati Leumi people do not look on other Israelis as second-class citizens. For one, we interact with them on far too regular a basis to think that.
That's in general terms. I'm sure there are a few DL people who would say that, though, just like a few Charedim might.
You may want to adjust your comment because this entire blog refers to chareidim as 2nd class citizens
They are second class citizens. They do not take on the responsibilities of citizenship, neither ideologically nor in practice.
"Haredi society makes second-class citizens of themselves regarding their responsibilities as citizens, while arrogating to themselves the rights and privileges of other citizens who fulfil those responsibilities, often without receiving many of the benefits."
Mmm-kay?
Ok that definitely didn't happen. Nobody talks like that. Try again
After several hours of reflection on the accusation that I am a liar, it occurred to me to judge "LEKAF ZEHUT" the one who calls me such. And the obligation is to publicize it.
(1) These are Haredim who have internet access and visit Rabbi Natan’s blog. Therefore, they live as Western Haredim who serve God through Torah and derech eretz.
(2) Since they are unfamiliar with Haredim who behave this way toward non-Haredim—and this contradicts halacha, morality, and derech eretz—they must conclude that my words are lies.
(3) Since this blog continuously cites Rabbi Natan precisely on this issue, I will present several cases from recent years in Safed that anyone can easily verify in the city’s own records.
(A) Several decades ago, a woman from France bought a ruin at the edge of the Old City, near "HaNasi" Street. She renovated the building at her own expense and donated it to the Safed municipality so that, with the help of the "Rashi" Foundation, they could establish a shelter for "underprivileged children." Some of these children had no electricity at home, some also no gas, and some had no place to do homework or prepare for tests and exams. Some also had learning difficulties. They set up an institution that provided meals, counselors, social workers, teachers, and more for all the neighborhood children in need.
Then came an election. Opposite this institution lived an admor. Apparently, a deal was struck with one candidate before the elections. On election night, municipal workers came and removed all the building's contents; The admor’s Hasidim converted the former help place into a Beit Midrash, with "Aron Kodesh", "sifrei Torah", and more. The next day, the staff and children came to the usual place for help, meals, and study, only to find...
The Rashi Foundation contacted the municipality, which ignored the appeal. The foundation threatened to withdraw all support for Safed unless the issue was resolved. Since the Rashi Foundation assists children studying for matriculation exams—and not Haredim, whose curriculum does not include matriculation—this was no threat to the municipal coalition. And so, the Rashi Foundation withdrew all its support from the Safed municipality.
(B) At the time of the second story, I was the neighborhood chairman. At its edge was a non-Haredi kindergarten. Due to demographic changes in Safed, the number of children in the kindergarten dwindled. The municipality decided to close it and send the children to a kindergarten 30 minutes away on foot by children. Up to this point, the process was "reasonable." However:
(1) The kindergarten to which our neighborhood children were transferred had fewer children than ours.
(2) Its area was smaller than that of our neighborhood kindergarten.
(3) Our neighborhood kindergarten was handed over to a certain Hasidic group, which opened a Talmud Torah there. It had fewer children than the closed kindergarten.
(4) None of the children in the new Talmud Torah lived in our neighborhood. Yet the municipality, funded by taxpayers—including residents of our neighborhood—provided transportation for the Talmud Torah children, whose parents did not pay as much in municipal taxes as our residents. Here, everyone worked; there, no one did.
(5) However, the municipality did not provide transportation for the children of our neighborhood whose kindergarten was closed.
(C) To avoid listing many more cases of theft and thereby branding Safed’s Haredi leadership as presumptive thieves (=HAZAKA), I will stop here. For additional stories about theft perpetrated by Haredim in Safed, feel free to visite Safed and speak with anyone non-haredi.
In other words: You decided to tell the entire forum: 'I am a liar and a malicious slanderer of Haredim. How do you know? Were you here and heard them say different things? Were you here and do you know that I wasn’t present? No. Rather: You know all the Haredim in my neighborhood and you know they are good-hearted people who don’t live at the expense of others. And therefore, you write: You are 100% a liar!
In this post of yours, you have lowered the bar to a level never before seen here: calling someone a 'liar' simply because they testify to something that doesn’t seem logical to the commenter. This is hateful speech directed at a private individual—toward me—and is utterly unconstructive. It is a coercive and silencing behavior, perfectly aligned with the very article in question. The condescension and dismissal of Haredim by Religious Zionists
In matters of literal life and death? How would you feel if it’s your 39 year old son with 5 kids who was killed in action?
60,000 eligible and only 600 enlisted?
What percentage are doing ביקור חולים to these injured תלמידי חכמים? Or ניחום אבלים?
Or worse….לווית המת?
These aren’t ’kitchen table’ issues about the economy or taxes or even medicine. These do not interfere with the observance of a halachic life (unless one does not do anything to prevent loss of life. e.g. don’t call 911 or hatzala on any holiday)
It’s about your ability to live life in a free society that tolerates idiotic and bigoted opinions. That doesn’t mean they should not be noted to be stupid and evil. It hopefully will stir those with the ability to discern and critically think that a change of attitude and life is needed.
That last sentence is ‘code word’ for Haredim to respond that it means a direct threat to halachic life.
It boils down to: can one be שומר מצוות and a soldier? A Doctor? A lawyer? Do I need a rebbe to tell me what I should do to support my family? (Oops, that last one is out of bounds 😄)
Yes I think you are a liar and vicious slanderer of Chareidim. Sue me.
You're mistaken about the idea that Dati voters are abandoning Smotrich in favour of Bennett or Lieberman. In reality, both of them are widely despised in the Dati community and are seen as political traitors. While Smotrich may currently be unpopular, any loss of support is more likely to benefit Ben Gvir than centrists or left-leaning figures — meaning we’ll just end up right back where we started.
Frankly, I think the real frustration among Dati voters should be directed inward, toward elements of their own communities — the ones who actually serve, work, and fight for a government that continues to sell them out. At least the average Charedi genuinely believes he's doing the right thing by listening to his Rabbanim. The Dati camp, on the other hand, keeps propping up a system that's actively harming them.
Yes, let's have a purge of anyone who doesn't vote as we do! Surely they can't have good reasons for doing so.
I don't think "traitor" is a word anyone associates with Lieberman. Religious voters tend not to like him because he has a regular practice of provoking religion.
You also seen unaware that Ben-Gvir and his people are less tolerant of draft-dodging than Smotrich.
Huh? Ben gvir is as responsible for the charedi situation as gafni and Netanyahu.
Yes, because he's in the coalition. So is, say, Dan Illouz.
I don't think this detracts from your main points, which I can't argue with, but one thing: If the Anglo-Charedim you know are taking "ski vacations to Georgia" (or whatever), they're not exactly representative even of Anglo-Charedi olim, and are *certainly* not representative of native Israeli charedim at all, almost all of whom couldn't take trips abroad if they wanted to (and they generally don't).
Again, it doesn't really affect your point, but we should realize that we look at things from our own perspective.
It was an example, if they don't take time in Georgia they do it in Gan Sacker, what matters is the point of taking time off while others are fighting.
Oh, of course. Practically the same. I'm just commenting that there are different types.
Have you ever been to Arosa?
No, I've been to the Alps once, decades ago, for a family event for relatives who live in Switzerland, and it wasn't skiing season. They are lovely, though.
Though not quite the same thing, imagine how you, as a tax paying, and/or law abiding citizen of your country or city would feel were to find out that your neighbor was shirking their responsibilities in the same areas. Would you continune associating with them?
Further, how many of the 'chareidim' are misquoting and/or misinterpreting halacha to excuse their failure to participate in the national defense of Israel? To me, that's chilul Hashem. While it may not be my place to punish them for their violation of 'al ta-amod al dam reyecha', it's certainly my place to not take their actions as acceptable. Silence is accession, and I will not accede to their (lack of) actions.
You say you cant punish them - Why is it not the states duty to punish them for not serving like everyone else.
I wonder if Bennet and Lieberman could do anything about it? OR do we have to just hold out and wait for when the others in society say "the charedim are not going we are also not going" - then it hits the fan big time and everyone will realize something must be done.
Saul - note my comment "While it may not be my place to punish them for their violation of 'al ta-amod al dam reyecha' ... " (I believe that to be Hashems provice), I did not say we can't punish them for violations of Israeli secular law. There's an expression "No play, no pay". I would be inclined to cut off their benefits.
And, at the risk of going off topic a bit, being that the Supreme Court ALSO doesn't play by the rules, I would also cut off THEIR salaries. What would you say about that? Money talks and B..S walks, as per the popular expression.
Without a constitution, where the supreme court will be bound by the set of laws and rights. the supreme court is the arbitrator what is right , what is democratic and they to protect those from discriminations. Want to keep the supreme court in check write a constitution.
If you cant - don't cry wolf when you are leaving ALL Isreali citizens rights to a group of people.
And what makes them qualified to decide what is right on every issue? All they have is a narrow legal education. Have they studied ethics, political systems, finance etc.? What makes their opinion on what is right better than mine? What are the guard rails for the Supreme Court? The answer is none.
If you think you have a better sense of ethics or what is right then by all means run for the supreme court.
If you make it great, keep in mind most charedim think or imagine they are smarter then the supreme court. You will have a lot of competition. However if none of you make it, as just maybe the rest of Israel does not see it the way you see it - you are obligated have to listen to them -
Run for Supreme Court? Where do you live? Do you know how the Supreme Court justices are chosen? The sitting justices have a veto on any new justices. The Supreme Court justices are selected in a completely undemocratic process which results in a uniformly left wing court which has values that are anathema to a large part of the country.
The Supreme Court has made it clear that they will overturn a constitution if they wish.
Overturn a democratic constitution by a huge majority of the people?! What exactly are you drinking?
Can the American Supreme court overturn our constitution??
The Supreme Court in Israel already has overturned a basic law which according to them is constitutional. So yes they have already overturned constitutional laws.
That is the situation in Israel. Tell me how did they get these powers? Was there even a debate about the judicial revolution? No. It passed in the middle of the night 32-19 by MKs who didn’t understand what they were voting for.
With the Supreme Court, you can start at the very top.
Why? Because the political reality is that that the hareidi parties have a voice in the government. Those running the government, as a whole, believe that the hareidi position is reasonable enough for the health of the State. Obviously most of you don't. But that doesnt mean you should entertain punishing them for exercising their political rights/
To some people who want to stay in power the Charedi position is reasonable. What about the rest of society why do they have to risk their lives at the front and cry bitter tears when a loved one falls. To them that is blatant discrimination. I have to risk my life and you don't?
Sad and unfortunate but that os their decision to make. Will you be stopping to take Chareidi groups at the museum or is Chareidi money still green enough?
What a strange, silly thing to say.
I can't answer for Natan, but supplying a service or product is not the same as being a friend.
Only the 50 ₪ bill is green.
Seriously, though, how does NOT exposing them to positive experiences in the broader community help?
And anyway.... Better RNS get their money than some yeshiva that has more bachurim on the roles than in the benches.
Here's a fun fact we learned in a tour at the Bank of Israel: The 50 NIS bill is green for the same reason as the old 1 NIS bill was: Both the Rambam (on the latter) and Tchernichovsky (on the former) were doctors, and green is the color of medicine. And that's hardly all: The old 500 shekel bill was red because Lord Rothschild had wineries; the old 5 NIS bill was blue because Levi Eshkol built the National Water Carrier; the old 10 NIS and new 100 NIS bills are gold because of the names of Golda Meir and Leia Goldberg; and more. Fun!
Wow, fascinating!
Thanks!
Fascinating! Thank you!
BS"D
Have you not heard of the military draft, AKA conscription? Does the word "cantonist" ring a bell, maybe? Would the Chareidim flee into the forests if the government got their act together? Would they cut off their fingers?
Are you implying the IDF is the same as the Russian army of 200 years ago?
I think Chareidim do see it that way. After all, there is a conscious effort in Tzahal to Israelify the soldiers.
I think they are indeed seeing today's issues through the glasses of 150 years ago.
But then, the entire Chareidi strategy to Orthodoxy is designed for Chutz laAretz, where the "them" aren't Jews. They haven't dealt with the transition from isolating from a Them who aren't Jewish to one where Jewish Unity and perishah min hatzibbur (which no less than a kind of heresy, according to Rambam, Hil' Teshuvah 3:6,11) are involved.
(Just as Mod-O has yet to deal with a new strategy in a world where Post-Modernism, not Modernism, holds sway. Or with the realization that they and Dati Le'umi actually embrace entirely different strategies...)
All very true.
And if I may be so bold, neither MO nor, to a lesser extent, DL poskim seem to wish to adapt to very different circumstances either. (And I am *not* talking about trendy social issues but ordinary halakhic questions.)
MO posqim really can't. They live next door to an imploding Conservative movement, which is a very loud an obvious warning scaring people away from fitting pesaq to the times.
The whole reason why we accepted the pesaq that declared swordfish treif is still with us.
DL is an interesting social group, because the lack of any real competition from a Conservative movement, it goes much farther left than Mod-O. (Or Micha Berger's personal ability to say "eilu va'eilu".) Contrast much of DL from the treatment YCT / Open Orthodoxy receives from the YU crowd.
Yes, obviously things are different in Israel. Swordfish is certified by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate- I've eaten it. Ditto locusts, non-glatt meat, kitniyot, etc. But every now and then even in Israel you see some reluctance to take "bold" steps (that aren't really so bold). And I'm not talking about au currant, post-modern things, like women leading tefillot or gay stuff- what you include under "left." Much of what I have in mind specifically relates to the State of Israel, or at the very least the practical results of it, for example different edot living side-by-side for the first time. Say, the text of Nachem. Or kitniyot-related matters, and so on.
By the way, even in the US Conservative Judaism should have little impact on these matters. I remember a blog back in the day having two extensive discussions, one on tekhelet and one on when to start saying v'ten tal u-matar, and then one of the blog hosts asked a friend of his who sits on the Conservative halakha committee about these issues, and the latter answered that of course they never came up. Conservativism will deal with things that apply to their people, like driving on Shabbat or intermarriage. They're mostly happy to let Nachem stay as it is.
The Conservative movement is still imploding? I think the implosion ended years ago.
Certainly not. The original commenter stated that it was "their decision to make." I merely reminded him that a functioning state has the unrestricted ability to conscript soldiers. If that were the case in Israel,, it would not be "their (the conscripts') decision to make."
OK, I didn't see the connection.
The continued reposting of the same content albeit in different forms, is getting lame - even for an audience which is in agreement.
Is somebody forcing you to read my posts?
It's the ‘Chas v’chalilah, my children serve in the army or sherut leumi’ comments that break me.
When I hear that, I’m done!
I can think of many more things that are worse!!
What does this mean? " . . . and are more-or-less trapped in their way of life." I cannot fathom that an adult with agency is trapped in any way of life.
Deliberate lack of education helps.
That explains some. Thanks.
I fully understand the deep emotional pain and frustration that many are carrying right now, and I don’t want to minimize that in any way. But I do think it’s worth pointing out that withdrawing from friendships without communicating directly — and then asking someone else to explain or justify that withdrawal — can come across as emotionally immature. Communication is the way to go. I imagine different people have different feelings, some are at peace with the "mixed" relationships and some/many are not. Should every chareidi person assume his DL friends despise him? Can't it be more nuanced than that?
Is this just part of your general attempt to marginalize chareidi society and you are doing your part to make sure all DL people break contact with chareidim?
Oy. Your first part sounded fair enough. I also feel its wrong that men with exemptions from the army are allowed to travel abroad for anything but clear family needs. But then you descend into your "we're better Jews than them" shebang. Haval, Haval.
@Natan Slifkin
1. Pinning the D'L world down to Giyus Chareidim is simply not understanding them. There are a bunch of issues that are higher on the priority list then Giyus Chareidim. Also emotionally, the way Bagatz and Shabak behave, create much more revulsion and anger then Chareidim not participating in this war.
2. We went through some trauma's that are much deeper and much more significant then Giyus Chareidim. Oslo and Hitnatkut for example. These are trauma's and pain that keep hitting as back, and in which the media, the ppl in power keep stepping on time and time again.
Yes, Giyus Chareidim is though, especially seeing the so called Olam Hatorah ignoring big parts of the Torah, and ignoring the plight of Am Israel. But please don't speak in name of the Dati Leumi world as if this is the only thing he cares about.
"The people of Israel are in a long-term struggle for survival."
The physical survival of the people of Israel has been promised many times in the Torah and by the prophets of Israel, and it is therefore heretical to say that their physical survival as a people is in danger.
It is classic zionist propaganda to try to obfuscate the difference between the holy "am Yisroel" and the heretical "medina" by writing "people of Israel" instead of "state of Israel".
The people of Israel are not in any physical struggle for survival; they are in a purely spiritual struggle as always, and any apparent physical danger is the result of spiritual shortcomings. See second paragraph of kriyas shama, the tochacha in parshas Bechukosay, and the Ramban at the end of pharshas Bo, as well as many other places in the written and oral Torah.
Good grief. Sometimes I wonder if you are actually a non-charedi trolling as a charedi in order to depict charedim in the worst possible light.
The survival of the Jewish People AS A WHOLE is not in danger. After all, there's millions of Jews in America! But there is absolutely no guarantee from Hashem that hundreds of thousands of Jews in Israel will not be killed. Heck, if you believe that the creation of Israel guaranteed the safety of everyone in it, then you should be calling it Reishis tzmichas geulaseinu!
That is not what you wrote. You wrote "The people of Israel," which means the people of Israel as a whole, "are in a long term struggle for survival."
If that is not what you meant, please write more clearly. The actual meaning of what you wrote is not something beyond what you would normally write, so there was no reason for a reader to assume you meant what you explained in your comment here.
So read what he says as saying "half the people of israel".
Gdalya says, "I'm alright, Jack!"
כלל ישראל as a whole has a הבטחה of נצחיות, but that doesn't mean millions of jew can't be killed. Of course our physical survival is at stake.
How do you separate a country from its people? Of course the government sucks and needs major improvement but that doesn't mean that right now fighting for the country as a whole isn't necessary to save jews, regardless of who currently holds the levers of power. If you think that there is no physical struggle than your head is in the clouds and you should wake up very fast.
"but that doesn't mean millions of jew can't be killed."
That is not what he wrote. He wrote "The people of Israel," which means the people of Israel as a whole, "are in a long term struggle for survival. See my reply to his comment.
"How do you separate a country from its people?"
The people of Israel have lived without a land for almost 2000 years. The people of Israel have no land; when they behave, G-d allows them to dwell in His land.
I was reffering to the current situation. Right now fighting for the country is fighting for the Jewish settlement here. One cannot fight for the jews in the land of Israel without fighting for Israel the country.
Say what you want. You may be right.
But HE said what he said and that is a gross and misleading statement of zionist propaganda that is and has been swallowed and parroted by many.
Things functioned reasonably well until Aharon Barak upset the applecart and no one stopped him.
Writing a constitution sounds nice, but until the Supreme Court is reset, even that won't succeed. The court needs to be pushed back to its proper functions as the laws stand now. The judical reform was all about that effort, but was blocked by a TOTALLY out of control and unrestrained court. There needs to be some means of putting things back to normal, some process that they cannot overrule and/or ignore. Money talks.
The Supreme Court hasn't really had an affect on this issue one way or the other.
As an oleh who moved here at 59, I am not judging others for not serving. Especially other olim, even those who came at ages when they could have served. After all, they could have stayed back in their prior home and also not served. Their cup is half full, in that sense.
And as for born chareidim, are they any less tinoqos shenishbu (roughly: products of a flawed upbringing, and not considered by halakahah to be fully culpable) than the guy who spends his Shabbatot surfing off Hilton Beach in Tel Aviv?
It's the sense of entitlement that gets me. Not buying the line that they shouldn't be serving... Who wouldn't believe their own leaders giving them a rationale for avoiding something they don't want to do? But those among the Chareidim talk about their own mesiras nefesh or protective effects exceeding that of those in the army.... Stolen glory of the heroism of those who are actually willing to die for the safety of others...
But frankly, this country's whole culture is biased in favor of Koach haNetilah (the Will to Take) over Koach haNesinah (the Will to Give). Just wait in line for your turn once and it's obvious. The Dati Le'umi community also sees Avodat Hashem and Bitachon like a Divine Kaspomat (ATM) system. Kach ideology and Smotritch are nothing if not Koach haNetilah as a political movement.
It's particularly anomalous in the Chareidi case. A community that is founded in part by ignoring the expiration date on Rav Dessler's idea that we need to invest as many young men as possible into yeshiva to have the few that will replace the gedolim lost in the Shoah are so far from such core foundational parts of his ideology.
"But frankly, this country's whole culture is biased in favor of Koach haNetilah (the Will to Take) over Koach haNesinah (the Will to Give)."
That's the stereotype, but of course there are many, many Israelis who don't feel that way. A few pushy people can ruin an image.
"The Dati Le'umi community also sees Avodat Hashem and Bitachon like a Divine Kaspomat (ATM) system. Kach ideology and Smotritch are nothing if not Koach haNetilah as a political movement."
OK, you completely lost me there. I don't see any of that.
"Rav Dessler's idea that we need to invest as many young men as possible into yeshiva to have the few that will replace the gedolim lost in the Shoah"
Which would be a little more believable if (leaving aside that their view of what Europe was like is largely a myth) we've ever seen a single gadol produced from that system. So far we haven't, and it's been eighty years. Meanwhile, the MO and DL worlds have produced plenty of gedolim.
"Which would be a little more believable if (leaving aside that their view of what Europe was like is largely a myth) we've ever seen a single gadol produced from that system"
That's because those gedolim matured under the pre-Dessler system. Wait another decade before the post-war generation becomes nonagenarian and assumes the leadership.
Nachum, you know from other media where I am in life as I write this. As an Oleh of all of 3-1/2 months, I am very frustrated with people who don't know what waiting one's turn on line is. Or the assertiveness needed to get help from alleged "customer-support" or government "ombudsmen" or even social workers. Nothing ordered ever arrives exactly as ordered, or services rendered....
(It's why native borns are called Sabras, after all.)
The amount of assertiveness and constant vigilance needed to get anything done in this country -- while not becoming an aggressive person oneself! -- makes one miss the old country.
This country is "looking out for number one" writ FAR FAR larger than where I came from.
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There is very little "ana avda deQBH" in Israeli religious talk. Even as the DL community takes pride in their willingness to pay a steep price for the People and the Land, they still expect Chassidic Style Bitachon getting Hashem to provide their happiness. Plenty of Segulah talk. Judaism in Israel speaks like we think "Avodas Hashem" means doing the rituals that gets *Him* to do avodah for *me*!
A simple anecdotal "evidence": How many DL weddings have you been to lately where "Tamid Ohev Oti" (a/k/a "Od Yoter Tov") was not played?
And what is more Koach haNetilah than voting for Smotrich, or even the Gush Emunim hashkafah? Not just turning the "grabbing" of land, but turning into *the* core value which drives more votes than fostering Shemiras Shabbos or kashrus, or even basic Ethical Monotheism.
The US has more gashmi problems with Koach haNetilah.
But the idea of Yahadus as aimed at building an Olam haYedidus (as R Wolbe put it in Bein Sheish leAsor) simply isn't heard. Even by the very people who are moserei nefesh for chessed.
What can I say -- we are the "me generation" and those raised in its shadow.
There was once an article on Cracked.com that gave me a valuable piece of advice: When you move to a new country, there's a tendency to blame things on the new surroundings. The author, who moved from Australia to California, described how he once dropped some eggs and automatically said, "That would never happen in Australia!" before realizing how silly that is.
So one thing to remember is that people can be just as ugly anywhere in the world. And hoo boy is that true of Jews, especially Orthodox ones. And you, congratulations, have moved to a *country full of* Jews, with a *lot* of religious ones. It's just that they don't blend into a large gentle gentile minority here.
The other thing, of course, is that different countries are different countries. Not necessarily better or worse, different. For example, you're an Ashkenazi Jew? Congratulations, you're a minority. (You're from a Western country? You're in a *tiny* minority.) Multiply that by ten million people, and you're going to see a *lot* of differences.
And, of course, language and attitude differences make a difference. I remember my shock when my then-roommate, American born and raised and a gentle guy, began screaming at the cable company rep within seconds of his call starting...before I realized that that's what happens.
Now to the rest:
Maybe people don't talk about being avadim of Hashem here so much. (Nor do they do elsewhere. When asked his profession by a prominent American charedi rabbi, my father responded "eved Hashem" and it went right over the rabbi's head.) But Eretz Yisrael is acquired by yissurim. People *live* it. All those soldiers are being avadim of Hashem. I think a bit of over-correction to the "Tamid ohev oti" (which is even popular in secular circles) is more than called for. We need it. And we need a lot of "Yihye tov." The alternative is unthinkable. That's why Israel is literally officially one of the happiest countries on Earth- number 8, I believe.
I *really* have to protest the following, though:
"Not just turning the "grabbing" of land, but turning into *the* core value which drives more votes than fostering Shemiras Shabbos or kashrus, or even basic Ethical Monotheism"
This is a cliche of the highest order. Yes, even Norman Lamm zt"l would say it, but that doesn't make it true. And that's leaving aside that the Torah requires us to give our lives to conquer Israel, or the fact that the "grabbing" of land literally saves lives, which, last I checked, is the supreme value in Judaism, far more than some "basic ethics". People vote based on a host of issues and determine what's important. The fact that they are not on board with giving up land as much as some American MO and Israeli DL gedolim of the past generation or two were does not make them bad people, or indicate that they are uninterested in spreading religion.
"There was once an article on Cracked.com that gave me a valuable piece of advice: When you move to a new country, there's a tendency to blame things on the new surroundings. The author, who moved from Australia to California, described how he once dropped some eggs and automatically said, "That would never happen in Australia!" before realizing how silly that is."
It's really an old Yiddish joke but from kind of the opposite perspective. When many Polish Jews moved to Germany after WW1, they were eager to show their family and friends back home in Poland how much more advanced and ‘vorgeschritten’ their lives are in Germany. One such teenager wrote to a friend “Vi ken mehn tzigleychen Poylin tzi Daitshland? Tzvelf yuhr in Poylin geleybt nisht gevoren Bar Mitzve, eyn yuhr in Daitshland shoyn gevoren Bar Mitzve!” = “How can one compare (backwards)Poland to (progressive/futuristic)Germany? Twelve years I lived in Poland I never became Bar Mitzvah, one year in Germany already I’m Bar Mitzvah!”
Your first part is simply objectively wrong -- it's not the same everywhere. Wait for a bus in Israel, in the US and in England and get back to me. Or wait on line at a mom-n-pop store checkout.
Sorry, it's not true. There is a very real difference, and in this area, Israeli culture is inferior.
An American learning at Kol haTorah was being called back to the US by his parents. They said there were plenty of yeshivos closer to home. So, he asked R SZ Auerbach zt"l what he should do. RSZA replied that he had to do a cheshbon hanefesh: Which kind of nisyonos was he more equipped to handle -- those bein adam laMaqom or those bein adam lachaveiro?
I thought at the time that this was the issue RSZA was referring to. Having moved here and busy dealing with a government where even the social workers in the welfare system act like an American state's DMV, I am all the more sure.
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And your need to really protest my latter point... The current HaTziyonut haDatit doesn't have the platform Mizrachi did. And during that transition, the DL world somehow forgot to hold on to the Rabbanut.
But the thing about Koach haNetilah which led me to give it a Nietzschian translation of "Will to Take" is that it's not about receiving, it's bedavka about taking, about Magia Li, about how strongly one puts oneself first and sees the rest of the world in terms of resources. The way a useful resource, like Pres Trump, can be confused with his being a good person. (Although if his administration keeps on leaking Israeli attack plans to the NY Times, that'll change.)
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In short, I question your objectivity more than my own. No surprises there.
You were fortunate to live in a certain area of America and unfortunate not to live in others in Israel. As to government employees, I assume DMV-level competence from all to begin, including in the Rabbinate.
The Mizrachi, for decades, was basically the religious adjunct of Labor governments. They got funding for their institutions and were happy. If anything (and this is *not* a political thing), there is a *lot* more kiruv going on by DL now than there was before. Saying "Oh, things were much better then..."...well, you know what Kohelet says about that.
As to the Rabbinate, that has nothing to do with any supposed focus on "settlements" but with Shas coming into existence and Aguda joining governments.
Respectfully, it sounds like you might not have lived here long enough to see the full picture. I understand that right now your life revolves around standing in line to get a piece of paper from a particular government clerk so you can stand in line to hand it to the one sitting across the hall. That phase will become a much less dominant part of your life...
Israelis are culturally different, but not less cultured... The same person who may cut the line at the Makolet to buy a package of pitot will give it away to the poor guy standing outside the store. There it is all polite and cultured [and often fake], here it is hot sweaty and real.
Yes, it is a weird place where everyone pushes ahead of an old man to get in the bus, and then (if he can get on at all) stand to offer him a seat.
But you do have to be vigilant on line at the maqolet or bus stop. And it is not just the government, it is every service industry from medicine to home repair. You spend so much of more your waking hours with a need to be vigilant and assertive... You see me as not having been here long enough to get it (although I am repeating an observation I made during visits that had me not making Aliyah until after 7.10). Bit I see it as you having acclimated to the bothersome.
Of course the Israeli is spending more energy on making sure "I get mine" than someone who remains in the countries us "Anglos" came from. It is the only way to get things done at all.
Yesterday an old man with a cane shoved his way on to the train, blocking the rest of us from getting off, and yelled at an old woman for being upset at him.
One of the soldiers he shoved then helped him into a seat.
I'm afraid you might be dealing with a lot of new situations in a new language. Give it thirty or forty years and you'll be fine. :-)
How does telling a story about someone shoving his way onto the train NOT make my point? My whole point is that Israeli culture is weaker on things like line waiting, stronger on Chassidic-version Bitachon, more enamored of Segulos, and I will add now another example, having a more robust black and gray market, all of which are symptoms of a downward spiral into development of Koach haNetilah. (Being symptoms of the past iterations and causes of the next one.) In relation to what I was saying, It doesn't matter if the person looking out for themselves to the expense of others, in contrast to maavir al midosav, is the youth or the older man.
You also seem to have missed where I said in response to Chana Rachel that my Aliyah was delayed by my disliking what I became when I had to push back so often. This wasn't an opinion formed because "kol hahaschalos qashos", as it predates even planning to begin.
(What actually caused me to change my mind would take this conversation yet further from the point. If you are curious, you can reach me privately.)
To relate my point back to what it was saying about RNS's post... One who lives in a country with so much emphasis (compared to many other cultures) on making sure I get what I can and am not a frier shouldn't be surprised when another community takes that approach when it comes to not serving if they don't have to. Even if your community isn't weak on Koach haNesinah when it comes to building the Medinah. All it takes is not having that building a central value.
>we think "Avodas Hashem" means doing the rituals that gets *Him* to do avodah for *me*!
Interesting thought