It is easy to deny reality when you can make the consequences someone else's problem or blame them on Those Guys Who Aren't Like You and Me. Rats are remarkably difficult to ignore. And they are completely unimpressed by rhetoric.
The area I live in is not poor and has good sanitation. But a combination of older buildings, new construction, mild winters, lush plant growth, and reductions in vector control spending boosted the rat population, and our neighborhood developed a plague. Our house and several of our neighbors' got colonies.
Prayer did not work. Neither did checking the mezuzot. Our local Chabad rabbi knew a good exterminator who gave us some excellent advice. No trap worked more than once (clever little vermin) Cutting back plants, hours spent making ingress more difficult, rat-proof food containers, removing construction supplies, bait stations, and the tireless work of the dog and cat who otherwise didn't like each other got rid of the problem.
The rationalist approach was absolutely effective.
I never heard of this “Mouse Rebbe”, Reb Shaya’le, before. It sounds like a great fairy tale - Like something the Brothers Grimm might have written.
It dawns on me - in the tale of the Pied Piper of Hamelin, the piper first leads the mice away by playing his flute. When the town’s folk refuse to pay him, he leads their children away with the flute.
I think, these “rebbe - miracle” type stories are similar - simply intended to lead the masses away from rationality and emet, and cause them to act like children following blindly and blissfully into the mountains.
G-D is G-D, Torah is Torah; these miracle/rebbe type stories are neither. The Catholic Church requires 2 “confirmed” miracles from each saint. There are over 10,000 “saints”- every belief system has miracles and wonders and stories and fables; We shouldn’t be overly concerned with them.
You seem new here and probably a nice and friendly person. But WADR, you aren't up to date, neither precisely what the rationalist position is, nor precisely what the anti-rationalist position is. (I'm not even sure if the terms are accurate either.) There's a lot of nuance left for you to pick up, after which it will be simple why to go to the doctor.
Kind of reminds me of the guy who calls himself a rationalist, and insists that all animals evolved naturally from amoebae, but still makes a bracha "osei meaiseh bereishis" on seeing a parrot...
In short, the belief in nonsense is a rhetorical weapon to bully people into obedience. It's not like the leadership actually believes its propaganda. And I use that term in its precise meaning "Pro propaganda fides."
Somehow I doubt that this particular סגולה is pervasively practiced in בני ברק or the rest of the Charedi world. One thing for sure, it ain't just the Charedi world who are posting pics of R' Shayale all over the place. We all know that RCK was very much opposed to such silliness. You should demonstrated that the
Shayale סגולה is promoted by Charedi leadership before engaging in this rather speculative article. (An interesting study would be the difference between the leadership and masses when it come to the practice of "folk magic".)
" First is that having a clean environment is less of a priority for charedim, as can clearly be seen when comparing different neighborhoods in Beit Shemesh. Second is that Bnei Brak is one of the poorest cities in Israel, which in turn is due to having a very low number of people who are professionally employed. "
Maybe it's because the population is very high. That translates into more garbage. Plus wasted food is more likely to come from certain sources than others. Restaurants, hotels, schools, ganim etc.. are going to throw out tons of food. Kids (כן ירבו) are less likely to eat everything on their plate then the adults who've learned about portion control.
I'm not sure you're correct about poverty either. While the population is poor, the municipality receives a lot of income from commerce and industry- revenues that are not available to Kiryat Sefer & Beitar Illit.
I'm not sure I'd blame just population. They do have less of a concern for sanitation in Bnei Brak (probably due to the 'mystical' world view) which I don't condone. That's why this hishtadlus is important.
What does the average citizen have to do with sanitation? All they need to do is throw out the garbage into the trash bin, and not into the streets. I find it very to hard to believe that any significant numbers of Charedi are just dumping uneaten food into the streets. If there aren't enough bins for the size of the population, or if garbage collection is not frequent enough, it's the municipalities failure. Not the citizens.
You're obviously correct that it is also a failure of municipality and population, but I'm not referring to the individual citizens but to a broader culture of not caring too much about cleanliness. That doesn't contribute to the mess? Also, the municipality usually represents the people; if the people cared the local government would often respond in kind.
But this is all tangential anyways, we are probably mostly on the same page here.
My point is just that sometimes focusing on the right things, such as Torah and Avoda, can lead to small issues in others, such as lack of cleanliness, which is used as an obvious target point to our opponents that *they* have it right. I'm of the approach that we can admit our faults while understanding that even so, we have it way better in the long run. If I'm wrong about my facts in this instance and it really isn't at all due to the lack of caring, all the merrier.
"if the people cared the local government would often respond in kind. "
If that's your main point, then the message of somehow blaming Bnei Brak residents for their misfortune is rather diluted. Furthermore, it could well be that the residents themselves are more sanitary than the rest of the population. But if their voting patterns are dictated by דעת תורה, rather than the state of city services, then a certain political party has a monopoly on power and doesn't have the motivation to do their job properly.
Unless I see some evidence that the residents are callously dumping garbage in places when sanitation services can't remove it, I'm not buying into this particular critique of the Charedi world.
And hence the term "Dirty Jew" was created. Although considered a racist slur, David Duke and Natan Slifkin maintain it is an accurate portrayal of their hygiene, and should not be taken as offensive.
There is no limit as to the amount of stuff you will make up to justify your pathetic life.
Charedim believe in Reb Shaya segulos?!?!?!? Who?! Where is your source? Yes, there are some who believe in it. But does that make it a kashe on the Mayor who doesn't?
I would love to hear the rationalist solution for the problems that hurricanes cause? Perhaps nuking the hurricane before it touches land?
It would depend on how you define rationalist, but for many people here, it means following whatever is scientifically accepted by the media, and climate change is the thing. I don't think sources are necessary.
Accepting science and the laws of science does not negate the influence of G-d at some level. Hashem has His method which is beyond our comprehension how He interacts with the laws of science he created to manage our world from the entire universe to the smallest amoeba. Hence of varying views of Rishonim.
If you think rationalist accept what the media picks & chooses to print, then you are doing nothing but demonizing.
I agree with your first paragraph, and as far as your second, I think I explained in my previous comment that it depends how you define rationalist, but for many people here it means accepting what the media says. I'd say more people than who believe the mouse Rebbe charm.
If I'm not mistaken, Beitar Illit, a thoroughly ultra-orthodox area, won an award several years in a row for being a clean city. The governing municipality clearly placed a priority on cleanliness. Sad it took rat attacks for making it so in Bnei Brak. But I get your rationalist v. mystical point.
Nosson, your hit piece on Bene Berak Charedim is disgusting. You are exactly like JESUS the talmid of Rebbe Yehoshua ben Perachia, who, unfortunately, was pushed away with two hands and went off the deep end generating a hatred toward all the Chachomim. I also am in the rational tract, but I respect Torah Jews who are not because the bottom line is kiyum of Torah and Mitzvos, and the various traditional hashkofos are secondary. I implore you to do teshuvah. I also hope you do not generate a new religion as in the case of Jesus' later following, which is contrary to your true beliefs, as in the case of Jesus, which makes him turn over in his grave! (I doubt if it will happen)
Yeshu was a common name then, (Josephus mentions quite a few different people with that name) and with the lack of documented history things and people got mixed up.
"I also hope you do not generate a new religion as in the case of Jesus' later following, which is contrary to your true beliefs, as in the case of Jesus, which makes him turn over in his grave! (I doubt if it will happen)"
If he does, we can be sure you'll write a thrilling historical novel about it, right?
At the end Rebbetzin David finds the CS extending himself kindly to an individual on the fence lest he join the other camp. See also how RC Brisker's warm departure from Bialik when Bialik was being kicked out of Volozhin caused many years later that Moshe Dayan exempted Yeshivah students from the IDF. RA Kotler tried to do the same with a relatively unknown person only that an Askan thwarted his plan (as told to me by the grandson of that contrite Askan, to whom RAK gently read the riot).
Those episodes happen not to tell us what to do if/after the person indeed jumps way off ship, whether to remain kind, or to become harsh, blunt etc.
Indeed, please do write a piece on these scammers but why the reticence in naming the miscreants?
“… Many readers may not know this, but there were at least five Ponzi schemes and frauds exposed in just the past few weeks.
One of them – seemingly the best known one – is alleged to be a whopping $45 million dollars stolen by a thief in Toms River who then fled to Israel. Another one was in Flatbush, where around $10 million dollars was allegedly embezzled. A third involved investors from many Jewish communities around the United States and Israel, and a fourth took place in Williamsburg, where around $50 million was stolen. There’s also a fifth, but I can’t talk about that publicly just yet….”
Uh, everything he says is based on verbatim quotes from you. If you really believe in s'char v'onesh, hashgacha, etc, try to actually write that, instead of the most inflammatory, kefira-sounding things that come to your head. But it is far more likely he is correctly representing your true beliefs, exactly like you wrote them.
"Natan says that it doesn’t really mean we are supposed to cry out to Hashem. How’s Hashem gonna help anything? It just means that we are supposed to do some self-introspection to figure out that we’re supposed to do social distancing or wear masks."
If this is a 'verbatim quote' , please do link to it.......Where precisely does Slifkin write ".......It just means that we are supposed to do some self-introspection to figure out that we’re supposed to do social distancing or wear masks......."
Each element or your 'verbatim quote' please, for example, - where does Slifkin write "....How’s Hashem gonna help anything......"
Yeah- "Some still asked that according to this, why does Rambam call for fasting and prayer? The answer is that according to Rambam, fasting and praying is what helps people (A) be human beings, feeling connected to the community and so on, and (B) contemplate where they went wrong." This is complete, unambiguous kefira, just like it says in the post.
In Jerusalem, the city has recently removed most of the large green dumpsters, and replaced them with underground garbage canisters. There used to be a lot of cats that would enjoy rummaging through the dumpsters for food scraps. Now, they're sort of dependent on residents to leave food scraps out for them.
Underground garbage canisters might help the rat problem in Bnei Brak. On the other hand, maybe importing Jerusalem's hungry feral cats to Bnei Brak might also help.
Your posts are generally good, this one is so full of spite, it is really nauseating. I am sure if there was a rat problem in Shechem or Kiryat Shmona you wouldn't write such a post about it.
Spite? I really don't think so. And if there is, it's nothing to do with rats - it's because of the selectivity of their rationalism. Of course I wouldn't write such a post about Kiryat Shemona - Kiryat Shemona doesn't exempt itself from IDF service with anti-rationalist excuses.
Your the one who is guilty of this "selectivity of their rationalism." You believe that angels exist and that God exists and that He is in charge (right?) and that He turned the Nile river into blood and on and on, but some other things are just *impossible* and *irrational*. We have Torah sources; you just make up whatever makes sense to you.
You are correct, and we fully agree, that precautions of science and nature and other such measures are necessary in the practical real world, but obviously they are not in charge; Hashem is. They are just hishtadlus. So when hishtadlus clashes with other important ideals, the other ideals often win. Case in point, every secularist is sending to the army, and the chareidi service is not necessary at this point (besides that the learning *is* our help). To bring in rats is a very outsider's simplistic view of our doctrine, which is disingenuous to the discussion, and it makes it a bad faith article whose objective is just to bash and point out a weakness only to those who never got it in the first place.
My only other option is that you truly don't understand our side, and in that case a little reading up on our basics tents of faith is in order. And you'll see that everything you're saying is totally against a straw man, whom I don't mind if you hate.
" and the chareidi service is not necessary at this point "
That's not accurate. That's like saying "service of left handed redheads are not necessary at this point". In what way, is Charedi service inferior to secular service that they are not needed?
There are certainly people who reside in Bnei Brak whom rats will not approach. Charedi does not equate with universal tzidkus, that everyone would merit such protection. To you, it does.
I hope when I have a chance to cite how RC Shmulevitz weighed in on a perhaps unique instance of that. (It's somewhere in מוח ולב which I don't have access to, also in שיחות מוסר which I'll try to find.)
The inanimate mahn in the midbar somehow could make the determination. Surely a rat can.
Always the clever retorts. I don't know Michael Sedley, and you don't care. Any response would be irrelevant and a waste of time. We all have our troubles, tailor-made to our circumstances and choices. Whether rodent, financial, health, or something else.
Sorry, I didn't mean to be so flippant, I was making a joke trying to understand your comment.
One of the biggest theological questions of all time is "צדיק ורע לו"
There have been many approaches how to understand this problem - but from the phrase "There are certainly people who reside in Bnei Brak whom rats will not approach" I thought that you were implying that there are Tzadikim that will not experience problems like rats.
Is this your opinion? That a true Tzadik will not have evil things happen to them?
Does this also mean that is something bad happens to someone (whether "rodent, financial, health, or something else") we can conclude that it is a punishment for something that individual did and that at some level they deserved it?
I'm just trying to understand your opinion here, not attack you or your philosophy,
"Rats can make rationalists out of anyone." Well, you can't spell "rationalist" without "rat."
It is easy to deny reality when you can make the consequences someone else's problem or blame them on Those Guys Who Aren't Like You and Me. Rats are remarkably difficult to ignore. And they are completely unimpressed by rhetoric.
The area I live in is not poor and has good sanitation. But a combination of older buildings, new construction, mild winters, lush plant growth, and reductions in vector control spending boosted the rat population, and our neighborhood developed a plague. Our house and several of our neighbors' got colonies.
Prayer did not work. Neither did checking the mezuzot. Our local Chabad rabbi knew a good exterminator who gave us some excellent advice. No trap worked more than once (clever little vermin) Cutting back plants, hours spent making ingress more difficult, rat-proof food containers, removing construction supplies, bait stations, and the tireless work of the dog and cat who otherwise didn't like each other got rid of the problem.
The rationalist approach was absolutely effective.
I never heard of this “Mouse Rebbe”, Reb Shaya’le, before. It sounds like a great fairy tale - Like something the Brothers Grimm might have written.
It dawns on me - in the tale of the Pied Piper of Hamelin, the piper first leads the mice away by playing his flute. When the town’s folk refuse to pay him, he leads their children away with the flute.
I think, these “rebbe - miracle” type stories are similar - simply intended to lead the masses away from rationality and emet, and cause them to act like children following blindly and blissfully into the mountains.
G-D is G-D, Torah is Torah; these miracle/rebbe type stories are neither. The Catholic Church requires 2 “confirmed” miracles from each saint. There are over 10,000 “saints”- every belief system has miracles and wonders and stories and fables; We shouldn’t be overly concerned with them.
He was largely unknown till recently, when he became very very popular.
See here:
https://www.feldheim.com/reb-shayale-kerestirer
For those who laugh at and make fun of rationalists, next time someone is, G-d forbid, seriously sick, don’t go to a doctor.
You seem new here and probably a nice and friendly person. But WADR, you aren't up to date, neither precisely what the rationalist position is, nor precisely what the anti-rationalist position is. (I'm not even sure if the terms are accurate either.) There's a lot of nuance left for you to pick up, after which it will be simple why to go to the doctor.
Bravo!
You know what else? When Chareidim have a leak in their toilet, they call a plumber. What a bunch of hypocrites!
(Unless there's something in the world called nuance, but na...)
Kind of reminds me of the guy who calls himself a rationalist, and insists that all animals evolved naturally from amoebae, but still makes a bracha "osei meaiseh bereishis" on seeing a parrot...
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/have-you-ever-said-these-brachot?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2
I guess there's enough hypocrisy to go around.
I suppose some microbiologists can reveal some amazing things about the little blobs. Maybe we should say a bracha on amoebae.
In short, the belief in nonsense is a rhetorical weapon to bully people into obedience. It's not like the leadership actually believes its propaganda. And I use that term in its precise meaning "Pro propaganda fides."
This post seems antisemitic, associating those Ultra Orthodox Jews with rats and disease.
Somehow I doubt that this particular סגולה is pervasively practiced in בני ברק or the rest of the Charedi world. One thing for sure, it ain't just the Charedi world who are posting pics of R' Shayale all over the place. We all know that RCK was very much opposed to such silliness. You should demonstrated that the
Shayale סגולה is promoted by Charedi leadership before engaging in this rather speculative article. (An interesting study would be the difference between the leadership and masses when it come to the practice of "folk magic".)
" First is that having a clean environment is less of a priority for charedim, as can clearly be seen when comparing different neighborhoods in Beit Shemesh. Second is that Bnei Brak is one of the poorest cities in Israel, which in turn is due to having a very low number of people who are professionally employed. "
Maybe it's because the population is very high. That translates into more garbage. Plus wasted food is more likely to come from certain sources than others. Restaurants, hotels, schools, ganim etc.. are going to throw out tons of food. Kids (כן ירבו) are less likely to eat everything on their plate then the adults who've learned about portion control.
I'm not sure you're correct about poverty either. While the population is poor, the municipality receives a lot of income from commerce and industry- revenues that are not available to Kiryat Sefer & Beitar Illit.
I'm not sure I'd blame just population. They do have less of a concern for sanitation in Bnei Brak (probably due to the 'mystical' world view) which I don't condone. That's why this hishtadlus is important.
What does the average citizen have to do with sanitation? All they need to do is throw out the garbage into the trash bin, and not into the streets. I find it very to hard to believe that any significant numbers of Charedi are just dumping uneaten food into the streets. If there aren't enough bins for the size of the population, or if garbage collection is not frequent enough, it's the municipalities failure. Not the citizens.
You're obviously correct that it is also a failure of municipality and population, but I'm not referring to the individual citizens but to a broader culture of not caring too much about cleanliness. That doesn't contribute to the mess? Also, the municipality usually represents the people; if the people cared the local government would often respond in kind.
But this is all tangential anyways, we are probably mostly on the same page here.
My point is just that sometimes focusing on the right things, such as Torah and Avoda, can lead to small issues in others, such as lack of cleanliness, which is used as an obvious target point to our opponents that *they* have it right. I'm of the approach that we can admit our faults while understanding that even so, we have it way better in the long run. If I'm wrong about my facts in this instance and it really isn't at all due to the lack of caring, all the merrier.
"if the people cared the local government would often respond in kind. "
If that's your main point, then the message of somehow blaming Bnei Brak residents for their misfortune is rather diluted. Furthermore, it could well be that the residents themselves are more sanitary than the rest of the population. But if their voting patterns are dictated by דעת תורה, rather than the state of city services, then a certain political party has a monopoly on power and doesn't have the motivation to do their job properly.
Unless I see some evidence that the residents are callously dumping garbage in places when sanitation services can't remove it, I'm not buying into this particular critique of the Charedi world.
And hence the term "Dirty Jew" was created. Although considered a racist slur, David Duke and Natan Slifkin maintain it is an accurate portrayal of their hygiene, and should not be taken as offensive.
What a bizarre thing to say. No wonder you post under a pseudonym.
Which Rav do u show your comments to prior to posting?
Huh
You’re comment is far from proper.
There is no limit as to the amount of stuff you will make up to justify your pathetic life.
Charedim believe in Reb Shaya segulos?!?!?!? Who?! Where is your source? Yes, there are some who believe in it. But does that make it a kashe on the Mayor who doesn't?
I would love to hear the rationalist solution for the problems that hurricanes cause? Perhaps nuking the hurricane before it touches land?
What a pathetic life!
Rationalists believe everything depends on climate change. If you drive an electric car, somehow hurricanes stop coming.
What are u talking about? Provide a source that that is what rationalists believe.
It would depend on how you define rationalist, but for many people here, it means following whatever is scientifically accepted by the media, and climate change is the thing. I don't think sources are necessary.
Accepting science and the laws of science does not negate the influence of G-d at some level. Hashem has His method which is beyond our comprehension how He interacts with the laws of science he created to manage our world from the entire universe to the smallest amoeba. Hence of varying views of Rishonim.
If you think rationalist accept what the media picks & chooses to print, then you are doing nothing but demonizing.
I agree with your first paragraph, and as far as your second, I think I explained in my previous comment that it depends how you define rationalist, but for many people here it means accepting what the media says. I'd say more people than who believe the mouse Rebbe charm.
If I'm not mistaken, Beitar Illit, a thoroughly ultra-orthodox area, won an award several years in a row for being a clean city. The governing municipality clearly placed a priority on cleanliness. Sad it took rat attacks for making it so in Bnei Brak. But I get your rationalist v. mystical point.
Corroborated here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beitar_Illit#Awards
Nosson, your hit piece on Bene Berak Charedim is disgusting. You are exactly like JESUS the talmid of Rebbe Yehoshua ben Perachia, who, unfortunately, was pushed away with two hands and went off the deep end generating a hatred toward all the Chachomim. I also am in the rational tract, but I respect Torah Jews who are not because the bottom line is kiyum of Torah and Mitzvos, and the various traditional hashkofos are secondary. I implore you to do teshuvah. I also hope you do not generate a new religion as in the case of Jesus' later following, which is contrary to your true beliefs, as in the case of Jesus, which makes him turn over in his grave! (I doubt if it will happen)
You mean the Yeshu who lived in 160 B.C.E, which is when Rebbe Yehoshua ben Perachia lived?
Actually, it's all a big machlokas. Tosfos Harosh writes there were two yeshus, tosfos writes somewhere 'ein zu yesihu hanotzri'. Great confusion.
Yeshu was a common name then, (Josephus mentions quite a few different people with that name) and with the lack of documented history things and people got mixed up.
תוס' הרא"ש סוטה מז. ד"ה כדאמרינן... ששנים היו. ולרמב"ן בויכוחו אנו חולקים על המצאו בתקופת הרומיים אלא היה בתקופת היוונים
"I also hope you do not generate a new religion as in the case of Jesus' later following, which is contrary to your true beliefs, as in the case of Jesus, which makes him turn over in his grave! (I doubt if it will happen)"
If he does, we can be sure you'll write a thrilling historical novel about it, right?
Maybe. I wrote a full three part book about Jesus of old. The Three Faces of Jesus. Lost Gospels of the New Testament
Where is that available?
Really? I don't see anything on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/s?i=stripbooks&rh=p_27%3ASender+Zeyv&s=relevancerank&text=Sender+Zeyv&ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1
Citation?
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Byx6sZjO1KzmNmQzNDA5ZDctMDIzYS00YjYyLWI1ZjctOGE1Nzk3ODA5NzU3/view?usp%3Dsharing%26resourcekey%3D0-bgHSUWFwsqbatQ6_lqmcPw&sa=D&source=editors&ust=1686845975726687&usg=AOvVaw0fwC40TBv9iRObhlOuD6s_
At the end Rebbetzin David finds the CS extending himself kindly to an individual on the fence lest he join the other camp. See also how RC Brisker's warm departure from Bialik when Bialik was being kicked out of Volozhin caused many years later that Moshe Dayan exempted Yeshivah students from the IDF. RA Kotler tried to do the same with a relatively unknown person only that an Askan thwarted his plan (as told to me by the grandson of that contrite Askan, to whom RAK gently read the riot).
Those episodes happen not to tell us what to do if/after the person indeed jumps way off ship, whether to remain kind, or to become harsh, blunt etc.
comparing believing in the power of Torah to using pictures of Rav Shayele ?
CThere is a thirs option well tested in Medieval Europe...a pied piper.
R Dr Natan , would you consider writing a piece on the following ?https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/2199063/mailbag-ponzi-schemes-and-investors-in-our-community-a-warning-to-all-involved.html
Indeed, please do write a piece on these scammers but why the reticence in naming the miscreants?
“… Many readers may not know this, but there were at least five Ponzi schemes and frauds exposed in just the past few weeks.
One of them – seemingly the best known one – is alleged to be a whopping $45 million dollars stolen by a thief in Toms River who then fled to Israel. Another one was in Flatbush, where around $10 million dollars was allegedly embezzled. A third involved investors from many Jewish communities around the United States and Israel, and a fourth took place in Williamsburg, where around $50 million was stolen. There’s also a fifth, but I can’t talk about that publicly just yet….”
Some of these are easily googleable.
Be sure to see the response from mecharker!
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/qanon-natan
Be sure to remember that he constantly misrepresents my views!
I linked to everything I quoted you, so the reader can judge for themselves.
Uh, everything he says is based on verbatim quotes from you. If you really believe in s'char v'onesh, hashgacha, etc, try to actually write that, instead of the most inflammatory, kefira-sounding things that come to your head. But it is far more likely he is correctly representing your true beliefs, exactly like you wrote them.
Firstly, not everything is based on 'verbatim quotes'. And even to the extent that is true, there is something called 'context'.
"Israel killed Palestinian" is absolutely correct.
"Who was a terrorist" changes the picture a little.
Yeah, it is true. And guess what? The context makes it even worse.
"Natan says that it doesn’t really mean we are supposed to cry out to Hashem. How’s Hashem gonna help anything? It just means that we are supposed to do some self-introspection to figure out that we’re supposed to do social distancing or wear masks."
If this is a 'verbatim quote' , please do link to it.......Where precisely does Slifkin write ".......It just means that we are supposed to do some self-introspection to figure out that we’re supposed to do social distancing or wear masks......."
Each element or your 'verbatim quote' please, for example, - where does Slifkin write "....How’s Hashem gonna help anything......"
Yeah- "Some still asked that according to this, why does Rambam call for fasting and prayer? The answer is that according to Rambam, fasting and praying is what helps people (A) be human beings, feeling connected to the community and so on, and (B) contemplate where they went wrong." This is complete, unambiguous kefira, just like it says in the post.
He does link to it in his post. That statement is hyperlinked, literally in the next paragraph.
See also here https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/qanon-natan#footnote-4-115635675 where he provides a verbatim quote and links to it as well.
Am I misrepresenting you here? - https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/bnei-braks-rats/comment/17294191
Are you not misrepresenting us?
https://www.pointepestcontrol.net/top-5-rattiest-cities-in-the-world/#:~:text=London%2C%20England%3A&text=Now%20imagine%20all%20of%20the,that%20call%20London%20their%20home.
New low for Slifkin.
Beitar is a beautiful clean town.
Correlation does not equate causation. Plenty of places in the world where a chareidi has never stepped foot are very dirty.
In Jerusalem, the city has recently removed most of the large green dumpsters, and replaced them with underground garbage canisters. There used to be a lot of cats that would enjoy rummaging through the dumpsters for food scraps. Now, they're sort of dependent on residents to leave food scraps out for them.
Underground garbage canisters might help the rat problem in Bnei Brak. On the other hand, maybe importing Jerusalem's hungry feral cats to Bnei Brak might also help.
Starve the J'm cats for a few days, then send'm to B'b. Problem solved!
(And don't forget to send along some pictures of R Shayaleh :) )
Your posts are generally good, this one is so full of spite, it is really nauseating. I am sure if there was a rat problem in Shechem or Kiryat Shmona you wouldn't write such a post about it.
Spite? I really don't think so. And if there is, it's nothing to do with rats - it's because of the selectivity of their rationalism. Of course I wouldn't write such a post about Kiryat Shemona - Kiryat Shemona doesn't exempt itself from IDF service with anti-rationalist excuses.
Your the one who is guilty of this "selectivity of their rationalism." You believe that angels exist and that God exists and that He is in charge (right?) and that He turned the Nile river into blood and on and on, but some other things are just *impossible* and *irrational*. We have Torah sources; you just make up whatever makes sense to you.
You are correct, and we fully agree, that precautions of science and nature and other such measures are necessary in the practical real world, but obviously they are not in charge; Hashem is. They are just hishtadlus. So when hishtadlus clashes with other important ideals, the other ideals often win. Case in point, every secularist is sending to the army, and the chareidi service is not necessary at this point (besides that the learning *is* our help). To bring in rats is a very outsider's simplistic view of our doctrine, which is disingenuous to the discussion, and it makes it a bad faith article whose objective is just to bash and point out a weakness only to those who never got it in the first place.
My only other option is that you truly don't understand our side, and in that case a little reading up on our basics tents of faith is in order. And you'll see that everything you're saying is totally against a straw man, whom I don't mind if you hate.
" and the chareidi service is not necessary at this point "
That's not accurate. That's like saying "service of left handed redheads are not necessary at this point". In what way, is Charedi service inferior to secular service that they are not needed?
In any case, necessity is not the only criteria for determining an obligation to serve. See the Chazon Ish: https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=41158&st=&pgnum=151
I don't think he believes those things. See our upcoming post.
Looking forward!
There are certainly people who reside in Bnei Brak whom rats will not approach. Charedi does not equate with universal tzidkus, that everyone would merit such protection. To you, it does.
I love this response.
Sounds like rats are able to determine who is a Tazadik and who isn't.
Does this mean that by definition, any individual who has a rat problem cannot be classified as a Tzadik?
I hope when I have a chance to cite how RC Shmulevitz weighed in on a perhaps unique instance of that. (It's somewhere in מוח ולב which I don't have access to, also in שיחות מוסר which I'll try to find.)
The inanimate mahn in the midbar somehow could make the determination. Surely a rat can.
Always the clever retorts. I don't know Michael Sedley, and you don't care. Any response would be irrelevant and a waste of time. We all have our troubles, tailor-made to our circumstances and choices. Whether rodent, financial, health, or something else.
Sorry, I didn't mean to be so flippant, I was making a joke trying to understand your comment.
One of the biggest theological questions of all time is "צדיק ורע לו"
There have been many approaches how to understand this problem - but from the phrase "There are certainly people who reside in Bnei Brak whom rats will not approach" I thought that you were implying that there are Tzadikim that will not experience problems like rats.
Is this your opinion? That a true Tzadik will not have evil things happen to them?
Does this also mean that is something bad happens to someone (whether "rodent, financial, health, or something else") we can conclude that it is a punishment for something that individual did and that at some level they deserved it?
I'm just trying to understand your opinion here, not attack you or your philosophy,
I think it's said that Hashem is more exacting with the tzaddik when he trips up.
I have no doubt there are people who walk among us that no animal will harm. That doesn't mean they don't suffer in other ways.