"someone who in the past expressed an intent to “get to” Rabin shortly before he was assassinated"
He was 15 years old, for God's sake. Writing this is called a "bad faith argument."
"a person who has been convicted in Israel of multiple crimes"
He has never, in fact, been convicted once. And the "crimes" he has been accused of are not any that should exist in any free country. But then you write, "As someone who has been cancelled in a rather extreme way, I have no problem with it" and we see where you're coming from. You know what? Some of us *do* value unfettered free speech. Dumb Americans with their inherent rights, I know. But look what's happening in the UK right now and tell me it's better.
"Ben Gvir said “Hague Shmague”; two thousand years ago, he would have said “Rome Shmome.”"
Ha ha. Do I really have to point out the logical fallacy here? The Romans had an *army*. The Romans were also willing to let the Jews do their crazy stuff in peace so long as their rule wasn't threatened.
The Hague has no army and is made of Jew-haters who care not how much we butter them up.
So far I see bad faith, a falsehood, an appeal to (unjust) authority, and a historically ill-founded fallacy. Do I have to keep searching?
The left's fantasies have led to thousands of deaths. The right's have not (although granted they haven't really been tried). I'll take that track record.
Well done. For a while, I was an almost unqualified fan of R’ Slifkin’s essays; even when I disagreed, I felt his statements came from a place of striving for rigorous objectivity & intellectual honesty.
Increasingly, I see that when it’s any of his pet peeves (hareidim, Bibi, hareidim in the IDF, etc.), he’s at best disingenuous, making statements & countering other people‘s positions with declarations that are anything but good-faith arguments.
You’re full of as much garbage as BG. He’s been convicted numerous times, 8 and counting. He spouts ignorance and hatred with every breath and he’s significantly responsible for the delay in the return of the hostages.
"looking it up I see he may have been convicted once, of "racism" "
Lol, may have been? Nice find, right at the top of his Wikipedia page, not exactly obscure, after accusing the OP of falsehood.
If you're going to accuse someone of lying, you should get basic facts straight. Saying he 'may have been' convicted when it is literally listed in the opening of his Wikipedia page makes you look extremely sloppy at best.
And not for racism, for incitement, see next.
" which is of course something that should not be a crime in any free country"
You're being obtuse. The discussion is explicitly about incitement, not "being a racist", as stated explicitly many times. Do you think it should be legal for a neo-Nazi group to stage a big "peaceful" rally in Boro Park, chanting "death to Jews"? Because when that happens, Jewish right-wingers are very excited to bring out their inner Kahanist, and start being violent. I'd much rather the police / gov have the monopoly on violence and prevent such rallies, then have mob rule, which is what happens in third-world countries
He made a significant contribution to the refusal of the government to capitulate to extortionist demands by Hamas that would cause the death and kidnapping of far more Israelis in exchange for the promise of releasing hostages. Another Shalit deal. Another foolish short term action that would make meaningless the sacrifice and death of our soldiers and their families and leave us once again at the mercy of a revived Hamas, חו"ח.
"he’s significantly responsible for the delay in the return of the hostages"
Do you seriously believe that Hamas will:
-Return all the hostages?
-Not raise its demands for their release (for example, demand to stay in power)?
-Not continue kidnapping Israelis once it sees how easily Israeli society can be blackmailed?
There has never been a war where the main goal was to bring back prisoners. The goal is to defeat the enemy. If you don’t defeat them, the next hostages could be your children.
This comment is full of substance-free assertions, besides for one, which is blatantly false:
"He has never, in fact, been convicted once. And the "crimes" he has been accused of are not any that should exist in any free country".
If you look at his Wikipedia entry, you'll see right there at the top:
"Ben-Gvir is a settler in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, whose "political background lies in Kahanism - a violently racist movement that supports the expulsion of Palestinians from their lands". He has a long history of anti-Arab activism leading to dozens of indictments and at least eight convictions of crimes including incitement to racism and support for, as well as possession of propaganda of, a terrorist organization (the now illegal political party Kach"
Plenty. Germany, for instance, criminalizes possession of Nazi propaganda.
Many European democracies have similar laws when it comes to materials promoting terrorism, racism, or Holocaust denial.
Even in the US, which has unusually broad free speech protections, material tied to active support for terrorist groups can trigger legal consequences under anti-terror laws.
Pretending that banning certain kinds of extremist propaganda is unique to authoritarian regimes just isn't accurate
Pretending to miss the point makes you into another Slifkin.
Fact is, Ben-Gvir was indicted and convicted for phony crimes, crimes that shouldn't exist, and don't hurt anyone. Just like I have no problem associating with someone who was charged with jay-walking, the crime of 'possessiono f propaganda' as well as 'incitement to racism' (which includes the ba'al kore of every shul) should not create any moral qualms about association with such people.
I personally do not like Ben-Gvir, but his criminality is not the issue.
Pretending to miss the point? the grandfather comment accused the OP of "falsehood", writing "He has never, in fact, been convicted once". The only falsehood was his.
And then you rhetorically asked " which free country has laws against 'possession of propaganda'", and I showed that it's quite common even in the most developed Western countries.
"Far-right activist Itamar Ben-Gvir was convicted Monday in a Jerusalem court of incitement to racism and supporting a terrorist organization. The self-declared Kahane spokesman was found guilty for carrying signs that read, "Expel the Arab enemy" and "Rabbi Kahane was right: The Arab MKs are a fifth column." He was acquitted on similar charges for chanting "Death to the Arabs" after a Jerusalem bombing"
Rather than a youthful indiscretion, Ben Gvir's support of Jewish terrorism ran well into his forties, which is when he removed Baruch Goldstein's portrait from his living room. And most suspect that he didn't do it because of a change of heart ...
In any case, Ben Gvir is indeed despised as a dangerous self-centered buffoon, a provocateur with zero executive experience or talent, by most Israelis, left, center or right. People are free to invite him, but the notion that they MUST invite him is plain ridiculous.
Nice try, but you should work on basic reading comprehension. The grandfather comment explicitly wrote "despised.. by most Israelis". Obviously he has some supporters, but he's objectively an extremely polarizing figure
Huh? When I say "leftists" and "thousands" I am of course referring to Israel. Hitler killed millions of people.
But yes, fascism is at its root a left-wing ideology. And you don't just get to wave off Stalin and Mao, who of course murdered far more people than the fascists.
Let's cut to the chase. The left wing media portrayed Trump as Hitler and Ben Gvir as a greater threat to humanity than Sinwar. Ben Gvir never killed any Arab or Jew (whereas Sinwar did many of both) so there is no question that the media bias is extremely slanted.
People should be aware of relevant facts in terms of what Ben Gvir has actually done in his current position. If you're an honest person you should read this article and appreciate the enormity of this accomplishment:
For those who can't read this article in Hebrew, I'll summarize briefly: A monumental objective of his was to overhall the jail system. It is well documented that terrorists in Israeli jail received better food, had LCD TV's in every room, were provided the opportunity to complete academic studies. So much so that there have been Palesitinians who snuck into israeli prisons in order to complete studies and enjoy some of the benefits. Each Palestinian terrorist received 6 fresh pitas daily (together with other food), they also had a canteen account where they could order whatever meats they please, financed by the PA to the tune of 200 million sheqel. Rabbi Slifkin - you have a problem with charedim getting money and not sering in the army. I have a bigger problem with terrorists getting far better food than I did as a soldier. The terrorists were allowed to organize and be represented, they were treated as equals by the prison services. Anything to keep them happy with the ridiculous notion that that would buy peace. In short the same left wing leaning policies that led to October 7th. Besides for the moral disgrace that murderers of Jews got to live the good life, it had dire security ramifications. This meant that Sinwar was able to continue to be a leader while in prison and intelligence officers couldn't get information from inmates because they were organized and represented and nobody wanted to rock the boat. Nobody until Ben Gvir came along. He has successfully overhauled that disgraceful system and put an end to the "summer camp" atmosphere in the jails. Besides for many other security benefits, this has the basic effect of changing the incentive to be or not to be a terrorist. Whereas a year ago, a palestinian could slaughter some jews, turn himself over to the police and then complete his Bagrut or bachelors degree, he now could sit in a prison cell and not get treated royally and not accomplish anything. So, as far as I can tell, the bottom line is Ben Gvir has done more to fight terrorism and increase security than any other minister that I am aware of.
Excellent point, in addition he armed the civil defense forces that he organized which is elemental and foundational going forward, at that point Biden had arms embargoed regular arms sales just like in 1948 for civilians. I'm recalling 1200 weapons hopefully many many more have arrived with plentiful ammunition.
"bottom line is Ben Gvir has done more to fight terrorism and increase security than any other minister that I am aware of".
Simply because he removed benefits from Israeli prisons? There's a reason why those benefits existed before, and it's not because everyone before him were a bunch of bleeding heart woke leftists (as the OP discusses). Just another simplistic/ reductive Right-wing take
I think it’s hard to be objective and think about whether somebody who you disagree with is actually doing something right but I suggest the following framework:
1. Is the overarching goal sensible. The media will argue it’s futile, naïve etc. but at the end of the day if somebody is trying to do something sensible (like make a penalty less luxurious so the criminals have some disincentive). Such objectives as punishing cold blooded murderers seem pretty common sense so you can at least acknowledge that.
2. Is it doable? Is it worth it? how important is it? all these questions come second and they are even more subjective (so the answer is predictable based on who provides it…..). Of course the media at first made fun of BG claiming that somehow shutting the fresh pita bakeries would increase expenses (this didn’t make sense to me – if it was cheaper to get fresh pitas, why did the army give me Berman / Angel sliced bread at every meal). Then the other classic left wing defeatist attitude would say: “big deal, it’s not that important” or a favorite: “was it really worth the price”? as if it’s insane to try to remedy any type of situation. I think this is just and it is very significant. At least I have not seen any other policy / operational change that is as meaningful.
This also speaks specifically to fixing the October 7th problem. I’ve heard plenty on the left criticize Bibi for allowing Oct. 7th to happen but would they have done any better? The simple lesson from Oct. 7th is that, contrary to the policies of the Israeli institutions, and these are as much bottom up (from the army to the cabinet) as they are top down, or more so, giving more leeway, goodwill, resources and good faith to our enemies results in getting stabbed in the back rather than what they expect (relative peace).
Allowing Gazans into the kibbutzim to work and treating them as friends and neighbors resulted in detailed plans of attack against those kibbutzim enabling the more efficient slaughter of their naïve residents.
Treating prisoners as guests and allowing them to maintain their rank and position, with organizational structure intact did not convince them to become friends of Israel. It just emboldened them to go on with their terrorist lives from inside the Israeli prisons. One of the most meaningful moves was to treat all inmates equally and not group them by organization. So long as they were organized, they stayed part of their party which meant terrorists couldn’t get interrogated effectively and the wardens were servants of the inmates.
So contrary to the article- BG isn’t correct because he is generally to the right, he specifically addresses the exact failures that made us fail miserably.
Look into how he formed and armed a civilian defense Force which would avoid further fuck ups by the politicized IDF and politicized deep state in need of Court overhaul immediately so that consequences can ensue and the fuckery can be circumcised.
There are a few major reasons why Western liberal countries provide more than the bare minimum for dangerous prisoners / terrorists etc:
1) If you treat prisoners like animals, they come out worse. Many prisoners eventually get released. Societies that degrade prisoners tend to face higher recidivism (re-offending) rates.
2) Legal standards - Many Western countries are bound by constitutions, human rights laws, and court rulings that set minimum standards for prisoner treatment.
3) International image - Countries that don't want to be pariahs can’t afford to have Abu Ghraib-style abuses happening in their domestic prisons. There’s a reputational cost
What's described in the Maariv article seems well in excess of what any of these reasons would justify and I can't imagine Hamas recidivism is positively affected by such positive conditions...
He also noticed that Palestinian prisoners would often intentionally waste water when taking showers, and just leave the water running after they finished taking a shower. (They'll do anything to harm Israel, even while in jail.) Ben Gvir limited each person's shower time to 4 minutes, after which the water turns off.
However, there was an indication that this might have backfired (to an extent): released hostages related that when the terrorists holding them heard that Ben Gvir is limiting food or showers to Palestinian terrorists in jail, the Hamas terrorists would say to the hostages, "Ben Gvir is limiting the food, so you don't get any food. He is limiting their shower time, so you don't get to take a shower." etc. etc.
In their official "report," the Shabak blamed the entire attack on Ben Gvir being mean to prisoners and to Jews visiting the Har HaBayit, which is just mendacious and evil.
In a similar vein, in the Wikipedia article on the "new" Hamas Charter from 2017, there were people (e.g., Anna Baltzer) who interpreted October 7th as being out of frustration: Hamas was trying so hard to become more moderate, and even revised their Charter to show that. Israel just refused to reciprocate and end the occupation! So, Hamas was left with no choice but to attack!
Really great piece, a lot of important, underrated points.
Very true (and also happen to be clever turns of phrase):
"There is no “Left” left, it collapsed after the Second Intifada."
" There’s a common fallacy that since the Left was wrong and the Right was right, then the more Right you are, the more right you are."
Very well said, good analogy from history:
"Believing in the luxury of unlimited “Jewish Strength” is naive and dangerous. It’s the exact same mistake made by zealous Jews two thousand years ago that led to the Destruction of Judaea. Ben Gvir said “Hague Shmague”; two thousand years ago, he would have said “Rome Shmome.”"
Powerful:
"What about the alleged problem of cancelling people? As someone who has been cancelled in a rather extreme way, I have no problem with it. Everyone has the right to protest that which they find objectionable. Free speech does not require that objectionable people be given the honor of a platform. Free speech does mean that people are allowed to object to that which they find objectionable."
I disagree with Rabbi Slifkin saying that Ben Gvir is somehow "acceding" to Rabbi Lenzer's claims about the Lubavitcher Rebbe being Moshiach. I'm an active member of a Chabad shul in Jerusalem, and there is a handful of congregants who engage in rhetoric like that. I don't protest against it, because, in my opinion and from my experience, it's simply not worth arguing about. If I were in Ben Gvir's position in 770, I would react much the same as he did.
I've watched the video to which the link leads, and it's of Ben Gvir standing alongside a Chabad representative who's giving him some kavod (and a "Moshiach kit"). The closest I can come to the idea that the speaker is saying the Rebbe is living in 770 is "משיח פה". If I were in that situation, I'd also feel I had no choice but to smile and nod.
Explains how such infantile children gravitate to this blogger.
Worse things happened to others,including my own family,but they were adult enough to keep moving onward.(Unless your whole raison d'etre is spending a generation parasitically milking every the little contretemp - note:a parasite hummm)
Furthermore,Slifkin & fan club have little problem cancelling anybody who is too much for them eg Chananya Weissman
Ain't going to fall for yet another nigh endless attempt to snag us in here.
But you're welcome to carry on.
Sorry dears. Be our guest.
Am pretty sure (yes, correct) that none of you folk will be getting much olam haba.
Blog owner Slifkin inclusive of course.
Just a tad of reality.
That remains irrespective whatever are the other decent facets (assuming there are) there may be of the rest of your milieus' terrestrial sojourn.
So enjoy this world. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
iirc Don't try turn promptly to your favorite childish(again) whataboutisms re:other demographics whataboutisms ,that you folk bring on inevitably when in a cinch here (& elsewhere)
So enjoy this world then. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
Ain't going to fall for yet another nigh endless attempt to snag us in here.
But you're welcome to carry on.
Sorry dears. Be our guest.
Am pretty sure (yes, correct) that none of you folk will be getting much olam haba.
Blog owner Slifkin inclusive of course.
Just a tad of reality.
That remains irrespective whatever are the other decent facets (assuming there are) there may be of the rest of your milieus' terrestrial sojourn.
So enjoy this world. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
iirc Don't try turn promptly to your favorite childish(again) whataboutisms re:other demographics whataboutisms ,that you folk bring on inevitably when in a cinch here (& elsewhere)
So enjoy this world then. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
Ain't going to fall for yet another nigh endless attempt to snag us in here.
But you're welcome to carry on.
Sorry dears. Be our guest.
Am pretty sure (yes, correct) that none of you folk will be getting much olam haba.
Blog owner Slifkin inclusive of course.
Just a tad of reality.
That remains irrespective whatever are the other decent facets (assuming there are) there may be of the rest of your milieus' terrestrial sojourn.
So enjoy this world. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
iirc Don't try turn promptly to your favorite childish(again) whataboutisms re:other demographics whataboutisms ,that you folk bring on inevitably when in a cinch here (& elsewhere)
So enjoy this world then. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
Ain't going to fall for yet another nigh endless attempt to snag us in here.
But you're welcome to carry on.
Sorry dears. Be my guest.
Am pretty sure (yes,that is correct) that none of you folk will be getting that much olam haba.
Blog owner Slifkin inclusive of course.
Just a tad of reality.
That remains irrespective whatever are the other decent facets (assuming there is) there may be of terrestrial sojourn.
So enjoy this world. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
iirc Don't try turn promptly to your favorite childish(again) whataboutisms re:other demographics whataboutisms ,that you folk bring on inevitably when in a cinch here (& elsewhere)
So enjoy this world then. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
Ain't going to fall for yet another nigh endless attempt to snag us in here.
But you're welcome to carry on.
Sorry dears. Be my guest.
Am pretty sure (yes,that is correct) that none of you folk will be getting that much olam haba.
Blog owner Slifkin inclusive of course.
Just a tad of reality.
That remains irrespective whatever are the other decent facets (assuming there is) there may be of terrestrial sojourn.
So enjoy this world. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
iirc Don't try turn promptly to your favorite childish(again) whataboutisms re:other demographics whataboutisms ,that you folk bring on inevitably when in a cinch here (& elsewhere)
So enjoy this world then. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
Of course he doesn't buy into it. But by nodding along, he's giving it a pass. Can you imagine him nodding along to a speech about how the Palestinians are also indigenous to Israel?
Eh. The reality is that the vast majority of Orthodox Jews just don't care one way or another about chabad messianism. Much to the chagrin of David Berger. And unlike Palestinian nationalism, chabad messianism is mostly harmless, in a practical sense
Chabad, or at least much of the movement, appears to be self-correcting from claims that the late Rebbe was "Moshiach". Even more impressive, with some exceptions, they are recovering from the incredible loss of a living Rebbe who was an individual of tremendous scholarship, tzidkut, and sensitivity.
They aren't all singing "Yechi" when they open the ark, and they don't all expect the late Rebbe to rise from his grave in the near future to usher Moshiach ben David. Chabad drifted close to the rocks, but Rabbi Berger's claims of major heresy appear to have been premature. B"H'.
I'm basing this on scrutiny of the writings of Rabbi Simon Jacobson, among others, who were particularly close to what the Rebbe actually said, and who are connected to 770. Things they say to other Chabadniks, specifically on how they ought to regard the Rebbe and his legacy today. The Chabad Tsfat been a center for the Meshichistim for decades already. For their own teachings, for those of the Rebbe and the larger body of Chabad scholarship, not so much.
As always, some things are easier to sell to the ignorant.
Did you know that many, many soldiers wore the Chabad Mashiach flag as a patch on their uniforms? (Herzi HaLevi infamously ripped one off, and now regulations have forbidden any non-military patch, which is fine with me.) Did they mean it? Of course not. People do all sorts of things.
Rabbi Slifkin, with all due respect, I saw that you wrote a pamphlet many years ago trying to prove from the Gemara and Rishonim that the Rebbe cannot be Moshiach. Many Chabad rabbis have written similar pamphlets (the most notable being Rabbi Yehezkel Sofer, who lives in my neighborhood. He first wrote a short pamphlet, but then expanded it to a 300-page book!).
I have found that these arguments all fall on deaf ears, with the משיחיסט camp. Why? Because they are not seeking validation from traditional sources, but are basing their belief that the Rebbe can still be Moshiach, based on statements of the Rebbe himself. For example, there are quotes from the Rebbe where he refers to his father-in-law as "the Moshiach of the generation"--from which the משיחיסטים derive that there is nothing awry with believing that the Rebbe can still be Moshiah, even after he passed away. There is also a footnote where he wrote משיח (מנחם שמו) which Chassidim interpreted as him hinting that he is Moshiach. This is all of the "proof" that they require.
If I were in 770 receiving the same "Moshiach kit", I would have probably acted the same as Itamar Ben Gvir, because I feel it's not wise to make a controversy out of it.
I'm aware of that argument. The Ohr HaChaim makes a similar oblique reference to himself being Moshiah (משיח ה' שמו חיים) on Devarim 15:7. We don't see people still saying that the Ohr HaChaim could still be Moshiach!
The argument the משיחיסטים give is that, although most of the time, a person is supposed to serve Hashem according to what his intellect directs him to do, on occasion, a person is enjoined to serve Hashem even if something transcends his intellectual ability to understand. The משיחיסט camp would argue that this is one of those instances.
Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak Wilshansky o.b.m. recently passed away. He was the Rosh Yeshiva of the Chabad yeshiva in Tzfat, which is pretty much the "headquarters" of the משיחיסט camp. He once said, "I know that saying that the Rebbe is still Moshiach even after Gimmel Tammuz looks crazy--but the Rebbe himself said, "I am crazy about Moshiach!"" Rationalist arguments aren't going to work very well against that type of mindset.
The more moderate Chabadnikim that I know argue that the Rebbe was "the Moshiach of the generation". Once he passes away, that title is bestowed on someone else. One Chabad rabbi that I know argued thusly: Moshiach is supposed to build the Beis HaMikdash, and gather all the exiles. If someone builds 90% of the Beis HaMikdash, or gathers only 90% percent of all Jews and brings them to Israel, but then passes away, then it's a sign that the person was unfortunately not Moshiach. These are the two requirements that Moshiach must fulfill.
I don't get the BGDS... My parents were JDL founders, I grew up respecting Rav Kahane... Those same parents were JFK Democrats. None of us are racist, very much the opposite... And , yes, I can say that avout Itamar as well. Let the man speak; if you don't like what he has to say, get up and leave. He has a very legitimate constituency; I don't get the hysteria and panic here... Just seems like wokeism on steroids.
>the more Right you are, the more right you are. But that’s as much of a logical fallacy as those who claim that since tzniyut involves covering up parts of the body, then a burqa is the ultimate expression of tzniyut.
Of course that's not what tzniyut is really about. The Roman Slave is a classical nude sculpture that 19th century ministers loved to have replicas of on their desks, as it shows how a completely nude person can still be modest.
Let us say that in 1939 there was an Israel (or a jewish army) and it would have had airplanes to bomb the camps/factories/etc. but it would have been seen as violating international law and the intl. community required that the Jews send soldiers to fight, risking not getting to the camps on time and losing the soldiers' lives.
Don't you think the moral thing to do would have been to bomb all those places instead of sending soldiers?
Don't you think that between how Israel is fighting and going ALL by itself there is a middle?
I don't see anyone addressing the issue if it were 1939, so I assume you wouldn't have bombed the Germans and you would have complied with Intl. law and let the Holocaust continue.
Addressing your issue: Of course there are drawbacks but there are also windows of opportunities. We had the chance in 1948, 1967 and October 8th. 2023. Now it's too late but there are ways, like not providing food and electricity, or taking more land than what Israel takes.
It's the same argument with Judea & Samaria (J&S). The same thing the enemy did from Gaza they are going to do in J&S. Why are we waiting to do sth.?
It seems to me that still more nuance, as well as precision, are needed to evaluate the character and effectiveness of MK Ben Gvir.
"Incitement to racism" is very broad, not to mention subjective, for a criminal charge for a society that considers itself a liberal democracy that supposedly values both free speech and tolerance.
With the additional nuance of the deep state in Israel targeting extra judiciously through administrative detention and worse the youth of the hilltop and those who settle the land.
- "Deep state" is a conspiracy theory. I've read Bar's affidavit. Under oath, he discloses how the PM wanted him to use the state to persecute political opponents. If "deep state" is opposing this, then long live the deep state.
- The court isn't self-appointed. Educate yourself on the Committee for Judges Appointments regulations.
- Blocking roads is called demonstrations. What the police perpetrates is unheard-of violence against the demonstrators.
"Recognize that those who oppose Ben Gvir include people who have skin in the game, who are smart and educated and right-wing and religious, and who sincerely believe — with reason — that Ben Gvir and 'Jewish Strength' are a dangerous threat to Israel’s survival. It has nothing (necessarily) to do with being woke, liberal, left, not understanding Arabs or not caring about Jewish lives."
Thank you for writing this — and for being a voice of honesty and reason. Your words matter more than you know.
Shocking how uncivil this comment chain has become - I'm guessing that most of the folks shouting at each other aren't nearly as far apart as the virulent expression would indicate. FWIW, I went to hear Ben-Gvir in Cedarhurst this Shabbos and he presented reasonably well, though I don't have enough background to evaluate him properly.
His appeal is clearly based on the fact that he doesn't mince words and is willing to take the strong line, rather than cater to the faux-empathy that has contaminated so much of politics.
I'm not a fan or not a fan of him - I don't know enough and I like (the rare) people who can be both strong and nuanced and empathetic (like Pierre Polievre) - but I don't like the hand-wringing and moral hesitation that hamstrings governments all over and he certainly has none of that, so I definitely understand the appeal.
Now don't jump down my throat - I'm not for or against.
"Meanwhile, Ben Gvir is propping up a government that enables and finances a quarter of draft-age soldiers to be exempt simply because they are charedi."
Let's start with a simple fact: Charedi yeshiva students do not want to be drafted, and the vast majority will avoid it at any cost. Have you seen the data published by Kan Bet radio (https://www.inn.co.il/news/667420)? Out of around 10,000 who received draft orders, only a few hundred were actually recruited — and even specially adapted units like Netzach Yehuda are struggling with a shortage of soldiers. Neither Ben Gvir nor any other politician will change these numbers, because you can't fight deeply ingrained ideologies.
Let’s imagine a parallel scenario and push it to the extreme: suppose we live in a country where the government abruptly outlaws circumcision and penalizes those who defy the ban. How many observant Jews do you think would actually stop performing circumcisions on their children? While I support universal service, the ultra-Orthodox will never comply. Besides, Israel isn’t Putin’s Russia—there’s no threat of violent roundups forcing soldiers to draft offices or shipping them off to war.
"someone who in the past expressed an intent to “get to” Rabin shortly before he was assassinated"
He was 15 years old, for God's sake. Writing this is called a "bad faith argument."
"a person who has been convicted in Israel of multiple crimes"
He has never, in fact, been convicted once. And the "crimes" he has been accused of are not any that should exist in any free country. But then you write, "As someone who has been cancelled in a rather extreme way, I have no problem with it" and we see where you're coming from. You know what? Some of us *do* value unfettered free speech. Dumb Americans with their inherent rights, I know. But look what's happening in the UK right now and tell me it's better.
"Ben Gvir said “Hague Shmague”; two thousand years ago, he would have said “Rome Shmome.”"
Ha ha. Do I really have to point out the logical fallacy here? The Romans had an *army*. The Romans were also willing to let the Jews do their crazy stuff in peace so long as their rule wasn't threatened.
The Hague has no army and is made of Jew-haters who care not how much we butter them up.
So far I see bad faith, a falsehood, an appeal to (unjust) authority, and a historically ill-founded fallacy. Do I have to keep searching?
The left's fantasies have led to thousands of deaths. The right's have not (although granted they haven't really been tried). I'll take that track record.
Well done. For a while, I was an almost unqualified fan of R’ Slifkin’s essays; even when I disagreed, I felt his statements came from a place of striving for rigorous objectivity & intellectual honesty.
Increasingly, I see that when it’s any of his pet peeves (hareidim, Bibi, hareidim in the IDF, etc.), he’s at best disingenuous, making statements & countering other people‘s positions with declarations that are anything but good-faith arguments.
You’re full of as much garbage as BG. He’s been convicted numerous times, 8 and counting. He spouts ignorance and hatred with every breath and he’s significantly responsible for the delay in the return of the hostages.
Looking it up I see he may have been convicted once, of "racism," which is of course something that should not be a crime in any free country.
After successfully defending himself before Bagatz for the umpteenth time, Aharon Barak himself told him to just go to law school already, and he did.
The only block to the return of the hostages is Hamas. And maybe Ronen Bar, who refuses to even consider a rescue operation.
"looking it up I see he may have been convicted once, of "racism" "
Lol, may have been? Nice find, right at the top of his Wikipedia page, not exactly obscure, after accusing the OP of falsehood.
If you're going to accuse someone of lying, you should get basic facts straight. Saying he 'may have been' convicted when it is literally listed in the opening of his Wikipedia page makes you look extremely sloppy at best.
And not for racism, for incitement, see next.
" which is of course something that should not be a crime in any free country"
You're being obtuse. The discussion is explicitly about incitement, not "being a racist", as stated explicitly many times. Do you think it should be legal for a neo-Nazi group to stage a big "peaceful" rally in Boro Park, chanting "death to Jews"? Because when that happens, Jewish right-wingers are very excited to bring out their inner Kahanist, and start being violent. I'd much rather the police / gov have the monopoly on violence and prevent such rallies, then have mob rule, which is what happens in third-world countries
He made a significant contribution to the refusal of the government to capitulate to extortionist demands by Hamas that would cause the death and kidnapping of far more Israelis in exchange for the promise of releasing hostages. Another Shalit deal. Another foolish short term action that would make meaningless the sacrifice and death of our soldiers and their families and leave us once again at the mercy of a revived Hamas, חו"ח.
"he’s significantly responsible for the delay in the return of the hostages"
Do you seriously believe that Hamas will:
-Return all the hostages?
-Not raise its demands for their release (for example, demand to stay in power)?
-Not continue kidnapping Israelis once it sees how easily Israeli society can be blackmailed?
There has never been a war where the main goal was to bring back prisoners. The goal is to defeat the enemy. If you don’t defeat them, the next hostages could be your children.
This comment is full of substance-free assertions, besides for one, which is blatantly false:
"He has never, in fact, been convicted once. And the "crimes" he has been accused of are not any that should exist in any free country".
If you look at his Wikipedia entry, you'll see right there at the top:
"Ben-Gvir is a settler in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, whose "political background lies in Kahanism - a violently racist movement that supports the expulsion of Palestinians from their lands". He has a long history of anti-Arab activism leading to dozens of indictments and at least eight convictions of crimes including incitement to racism and support for, as well as possession of propaganda of, a terrorist organization (the now illegal political party Kach"
So which free country has laws against 'possession of propaganda'?
Plenty. Germany, for instance, criminalizes possession of Nazi propaganda.
Many European democracies have similar laws when it comes to materials promoting terrorism, racism, or Holocaust denial.
Even in the US, which has unusually broad free speech protections, material tied to active support for terrorist groups can trigger legal consequences under anti-terror laws.
Pretending that banning certain kinds of extremist propaganda is unique to authoritarian regimes just isn't accurate
Pretending to miss the point makes you into another Slifkin.
Fact is, Ben-Gvir was indicted and convicted for phony crimes, crimes that shouldn't exist, and don't hurt anyone. Just like I have no problem associating with someone who was charged with jay-walking, the crime of 'possessiono f propaganda' as well as 'incitement to racism' (which includes the ba'al kore of every shul) should not create any moral qualms about association with such people.
I personally do not like Ben-Gvir, but his criminality is not the issue.
Pretending to miss the point? the grandfather comment accused the OP of "falsehood", writing "He has never, in fact, been convicted once". The only falsehood was his.
And then you rhetorically asked " which free country has laws against 'possession of propaganda'", and I showed that it's quite common even in the most developed Western countries.
Not exactly jaywalking:
https://m.jpost.com/israel/ben-gvir-convicted-of-inciting-to-racism:
"Far-right activist Itamar Ben-Gvir was convicted Monday in a Jerusalem court of incitement to racism and supporting a terrorist organization. The self-declared Kahane spokesman was found guilty for carrying signs that read, "Expel the Arab enemy" and "Rabbi Kahane was right: The Arab MKs are a fifth column." He was acquitted on similar charges for chanting "Death to the Arabs" after a Jerusalem bombing"
https://www.dictionary.com/ will help with the translation of the word 'analogy'.
Rather than a youthful indiscretion, Ben Gvir's support of Jewish terrorism ran well into his forties, which is when he removed Baruch Goldstein's portrait from his living room. And most suspect that he didn't do it because of a change of heart ...
In any case, Ben Gvir is indeed despised as a dangerous self-centered buffoon, a provocateur with zero executive experience or talent, by most Israelis, left, center or right. People are free to invite him, but the notion that they MUST invite him is plain ridiculous.
He's so despised he's got the support of at least a half-million voters. But they don't count, because...let's not go there.
Nice try, but you should work on basic reading comprehension. The grandfather comment explicitly wrote "despised.. by most Israelis". Obviously he has some supporters, but he's objectively an extremely polarizing figure
Huh? When I say "leftists" and "thousands" I am of course referring to Israel. Hitler killed millions of people.
But yes, fascism is at its root a left-wing ideology. And you don't just get to wave off Stalin and Mao, who of course murdered far more people than the fascists.
Nah, fascism is primarily a nationalist ideology. Not everything fits neatly into the highly reductive left-right duality
"Communism killed 100 million people, and all I got was this lousy Che' t-shirt."
Lol
Let's cut to the chase. The left wing media portrayed Trump as Hitler and Ben Gvir as a greater threat to humanity than Sinwar. Ben Gvir never killed any Arab or Jew (whereas Sinwar did many of both) so there is no question that the media bias is extremely slanted.
People should be aware of relevant facts in terms of what Ben Gvir has actually done in his current position. If you're an honest person you should read this article and appreciate the enormity of this accomplishment:
https://m.maariv.co.il/journalists/article-1191132?utm_source=whatsapp
For those who can't read this article in Hebrew, I'll summarize briefly: A monumental objective of his was to overhall the jail system. It is well documented that terrorists in Israeli jail received better food, had LCD TV's in every room, were provided the opportunity to complete academic studies. So much so that there have been Palesitinians who snuck into israeli prisons in order to complete studies and enjoy some of the benefits. Each Palestinian terrorist received 6 fresh pitas daily (together with other food), they also had a canteen account where they could order whatever meats they please, financed by the PA to the tune of 200 million sheqel. Rabbi Slifkin - you have a problem with charedim getting money and not sering in the army. I have a bigger problem with terrorists getting far better food than I did as a soldier. The terrorists were allowed to organize and be represented, they were treated as equals by the prison services. Anything to keep them happy with the ridiculous notion that that would buy peace. In short the same left wing leaning policies that led to October 7th. Besides for the moral disgrace that murderers of Jews got to live the good life, it had dire security ramifications. This meant that Sinwar was able to continue to be a leader while in prison and intelligence officers couldn't get information from inmates because they were organized and represented and nobody wanted to rock the boat. Nobody until Ben Gvir came along. He has successfully overhauled that disgraceful system and put an end to the "summer camp" atmosphere in the jails. Besides for many other security benefits, this has the basic effect of changing the incentive to be or not to be a terrorist. Whereas a year ago, a palestinian could slaughter some jews, turn himself over to the police and then complete his Bagrut or bachelors degree, he now could sit in a prison cell and not get treated royally and not accomplish anything. So, as far as I can tell, the bottom line is Ben Gvir has done more to fight terrorism and increase security than any other minister that I am aware of.
Excellent point, in addition he armed the civil defense forces that he organized which is elemental and foundational going forward, at that point Biden had arms embargoed regular arms sales just like in 1948 for civilians. I'm recalling 1200 weapons hopefully many many more have arrived with plentiful ammunition.
"bottom line is Ben Gvir has done more to fight terrorism and increase security than any other minister that I am aware of".
Simply because he removed benefits from Israeli prisons? There's a reason why those benefits existed before, and it's not because everyone before him were a bunch of bleeding heart woke leftists (as the OP discusses). Just another simplistic/ reductive Right-wing take
I think it’s hard to be objective and think about whether somebody who you disagree with is actually doing something right but I suggest the following framework:
1. Is the overarching goal sensible. The media will argue it’s futile, naïve etc. but at the end of the day if somebody is trying to do something sensible (like make a penalty less luxurious so the criminals have some disincentive). Such objectives as punishing cold blooded murderers seem pretty common sense so you can at least acknowledge that.
2. Is it doable? Is it worth it? how important is it? all these questions come second and they are even more subjective (so the answer is predictable based on who provides it…..). Of course the media at first made fun of BG claiming that somehow shutting the fresh pita bakeries would increase expenses (this didn’t make sense to me – if it was cheaper to get fresh pitas, why did the army give me Berman / Angel sliced bread at every meal). Then the other classic left wing defeatist attitude would say: “big deal, it’s not that important” or a favorite: “was it really worth the price”? as if it’s insane to try to remedy any type of situation. I think this is just and it is very significant. At least I have not seen any other policy / operational change that is as meaningful.
This also speaks specifically to fixing the October 7th problem. I’ve heard plenty on the left criticize Bibi for allowing Oct. 7th to happen but would they have done any better? The simple lesson from Oct. 7th is that, contrary to the policies of the Israeli institutions, and these are as much bottom up (from the army to the cabinet) as they are top down, or more so, giving more leeway, goodwill, resources and good faith to our enemies results in getting stabbed in the back rather than what they expect (relative peace).
Allowing Gazans into the kibbutzim to work and treating them as friends and neighbors resulted in detailed plans of attack against those kibbutzim enabling the more efficient slaughter of their naïve residents.
Treating prisoners as guests and allowing them to maintain their rank and position, with organizational structure intact did not convince them to become friends of Israel. It just emboldened them to go on with their terrorist lives from inside the Israeli prisons. One of the most meaningful moves was to treat all inmates equally and not group them by organization. So long as they were organized, they stayed part of their party which meant terrorists couldn’t get interrogated effectively and the wardens were servants of the inmates.
So contrary to the article- BG isn’t correct because he is generally to the right, he specifically addresses the exact failures that made us fail miserably.
Look into how he formed and armed a civilian defense Force which would avoid further fuck ups by the politicized IDF and politicized deep state in need of Court overhaul immediately so that consequences can ensue and the fuckery can be circumcised.
Why did those benefits exist Ezra?
There are a few major reasons why Western liberal countries provide more than the bare minimum for dangerous prisoners / terrorists etc:
1) If you treat prisoners like animals, they come out worse. Many prisoners eventually get released. Societies that degrade prisoners tend to face higher recidivism (re-offending) rates.
2) Legal standards - Many Western countries are bound by constitutions, human rights laws, and court rulings that set minimum standards for prisoner treatment.
3) International image - Countries that don't want to be pariahs can’t afford to have Abu Ghraib-style abuses happening in their domestic prisons. There’s a reputational cost
"Whoever is kind to the cruel will end up being cruel to the kind."
It's amazing how people can keep saying this after Sinwar. Israel is heading directly into the abiss.
What's described in the Maariv article seems well in excess of what any of these reasons would justify and I can't imagine Hamas recidivism is positively affected by such positive conditions...
He also noticed that Palestinian prisoners would often intentionally waste water when taking showers, and just leave the water running after they finished taking a shower. (They'll do anything to harm Israel, even while in jail.) Ben Gvir limited each person's shower time to 4 minutes, after which the water turns off.
However, there was an indication that this might have backfired (to an extent): released hostages related that when the terrorists holding them heard that Ben Gvir is limiting food or showers to Palestinian terrorists in jail, the Hamas terrorists would say to the hostages, "Ben Gvir is limiting the food, so you don't get any food. He is limiting their shower time, so you don't get to take a shower." etc. etc.
Let's not forget who took the hostages.
In their official "report," the Shabak blamed the entire attack on Ben Gvir being mean to prisoners and to Jews visiting the Har HaBayit, which is just mendacious and evil.
In a similar vein, in the Wikipedia article on the "new" Hamas Charter from 2017, there were people (e.g., Anna Baltzer) who interpreted October 7th as being out of frustration: Hamas was trying so hard to become more moderate, and even revised their Charter to show that. Israel just refused to reciprocate and end the occupation! So, Hamas was left with no choice but to attack!
"the right wing were protesting Oslo they depicted Rabin as an SS-officer"
Seriously? You do know who did that, don't you?
Probably he does not.
The "they" you're talking about were just two teenagers.
https://www.maariv.co.il/news/israel/Article-667061
Really great piece, a lot of important, underrated points.
Very true (and also happen to be clever turns of phrase):
"There is no “Left” left, it collapsed after the Second Intifada."
" There’s a common fallacy that since the Left was wrong and the Right was right, then the more Right you are, the more right you are."
Very well said, good analogy from history:
"Believing in the luxury of unlimited “Jewish Strength” is naive and dangerous. It’s the exact same mistake made by zealous Jews two thousand years ago that led to the Destruction of Judaea. Ben Gvir said “Hague Shmague”; two thousand years ago, he would have said “Rome Shmome.”"
Powerful:
"What about the alleged problem of cancelling people? As someone who has been cancelled in a rather extreme way, I have no problem with it. Everyone has the right to protest that which they find objectionable. Free speech does not require that objectionable people be given the honor of a platform. Free speech does mean that people are allowed to object to that which they find objectionable."
Ha, I too liked "no 'Left' left" and "the more Right you are, the more right you are" (though I doubt these are original coinages).
Why do we humans love wordplay so much?
At least one person has:
https://open.substack.com/pub/nonzionism/p/crunch-time?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=33pit
I disagree with Rabbi Slifkin saying that Ben Gvir is somehow "acceding" to Rabbi Lenzer's claims about the Lubavitcher Rebbe being Moshiach. I'm an active member of a Chabad shul in Jerusalem, and there is a handful of congregants who engage in rhetoric like that. I don't protest against it, because, in my opinion and from my experience, it's simply not worth arguing about. If I were in Ben Gvir's position in 770, I would react much the same as he did.
I've watched the video to which the link leads, and it's of Ben Gvir standing alongside a Chabad representative who's giving him some kavod (and a "Moshiach kit"). The closest I can come to the idea that the speaker is saying the Rebbe is living in 770 is "משיח פה". If I were in that situation, I'd also feel I had no choice but to smile and nod.
Rabbi Dr. Slifkin -
You say you've been cancelled.
Indeed, you've been the target of a vicious cancellation *attempt.*
But you have not been cancelled.
No one can cancel you, Rabbi Slifkin.
Explains how such infantile children gravitate to this blogger.
Worse things happened to others,including my own family,but they were adult enough to keep moving onward.(Unless your whole raison d'etre is spending a generation parasitically milking every the little contretemp - note:a parasite hummm)
Furthermore,Slifkin & fan club have little problem cancelling anybody who is too much for them eg Chananya Weissman
Unfortunate that such infantile children gravitate to critiquing this blogger, would be nice to have actual substantive debates here
Ain't going to fall for yet another nigh endless attempt to snag us in here.
But you're welcome to carry on.
Sorry dears. Be our guest.
Am pretty sure (yes, correct) that none of you folk will be getting much olam haba.
Blog owner Slifkin inclusive of course.
Just a tad of reality.
That remains irrespective whatever are the other decent facets (assuming there are) there may be of the rest of your milieus' terrestrial sojourn.
So enjoy this world. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
iirc Don't try turn promptly to your favorite childish(again) whataboutisms re:other demographics whataboutisms ,that you folk bring on inevitably when in a cinch here (& elsewhere)
So enjoy this world then. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
Ain't going to fall for yet another nigh endless attempt to snag us in here.
But you're welcome to carry on.
Sorry dears. Be our guest.
Am pretty sure (yes, correct) that none of you folk will be getting much olam haba.
Blog owner Slifkin inclusive of course.
Just a tad of reality.
That remains irrespective whatever are the other decent facets (assuming there are) there may be of the rest of your milieus' terrestrial sojourn.
So enjoy this world. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
iirc Don't try turn promptly to your favorite childish(again) whataboutisms re:other demographics whataboutisms ,that you folk bring on inevitably when in a cinch here (& elsewhere)
So enjoy this world then. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
Ain't going to fall for yet another nigh endless attempt to snag us in here.
But you're welcome to carry on.
Sorry dears. Be our guest.
Am pretty sure (yes, correct) that none of you folk will be getting much olam haba.
Blog owner Slifkin inclusive of course.
Just a tad of reality.
That remains irrespective whatever are the other decent facets (assuming there are) there may be of the rest of your milieus' terrestrial sojourn.
So enjoy this world. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
iirc Don't try turn promptly to your favorite childish(again) whataboutisms re:other demographics whataboutisms ,that you folk bring on inevitably when in a cinch here (& elsewhere)
So enjoy this world then. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
Ain't going to fall for yet another nigh endless attempt to snag us in here.
But you're welcome to carry on.
Sorry dears. Be my guest.
Am pretty sure (yes,that is correct) that none of you folk will be getting that much olam haba.
Blog owner Slifkin inclusive of course.
Just a tad of reality.
That remains irrespective whatever are the other decent facets (assuming there is) there may be of terrestrial sojourn.
So enjoy this world. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
iirc Don't try turn promptly to your favorite childish(again) whataboutisms re:other demographics whataboutisms ,that you folk bring on inevitably when in a cinch here (& elsewhere)
So enjoy this world then. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
Ain't going to fall for yet another nigh endless attempt to snag us in here.
But you're welcome to carry on.
Sorry dears. Be my guest.
Am pretty sure (yes,that is correct) that none of you folk will be getting that much olam haba.
Blog owner Slifkin inclusive of course.
Just a tad of reality.
That remains irrespective whatever are the other decent facets (assuming there is) there may be of terrestrial sojourn.
So enjoy this world. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
iirc Don't try turn promptly to your favorite childish(again) whataboutisms re:other demographics whataboutisms ,that you folk bring on inevitably when in a cinch here (& elsewhere)
So enjoy this world then. There little purpose in my pouring cold water.
My point was not about Rabbi Slifkin in particular. My point was that no one can "cancel" another human being just because they wish it to be so.
Idiocy to think Ben Gevir buys into the Rebbe is Mashiach nonsense - he's just a good politician......
Of course he doesn't buy into it. But by nodding along, he's giving it a pass. Can you imagine him nodding along to a speech about how the Palestinians are also indigenous to Israel?
Eh. The reality is that the vast majority of Orthodox Jews just don't care one way or another about chabad messianism. Much to the chagrin of David Berger. And unlike Palestinian nationalism, chabad messianism is mostly harmless, in a practical sense
Chabad, or at least much of the movement, appears to be self-correcting from claims that the late Rebbe was "Moshiach". Even more impressive, with some exceptions, they are recovering from the incredible loss of a living Rebbe who was an individual of tremendous scholarship, tzidkut, and sensitivity.
They aren't all singing "Yechi" when they open the ark, and they don't all expect the late Rebbe to rise from his grave in the near future to usher Moshiach ben David. Chabad drifted close to the rocks, but Rabbi Berger's claims of major heresy appear to have been premature. B"H'.
I'm basing this on scrutiny of the writings of Rabbi Simon Jacobson, among others, who were particularly close to what the Rebbe actually said, and who are connected to 770. Things they say to other Chabadniks, specifically on how they ought to regard the Rebbe and his legacy today. The Chabad Tsfat been a center for the Meshichistim for decades already. For their own teachings, for those of the Rebbe and the larger body of Chabad scholarship, not so much.
As always, some things are easier to sell to the ignorant.
Mostly harmless….that’s how humans are described in the HGTTG….
That extra word took years of research on the part of Ford Prefect. Don't denigrate it.
Did you know that many, many soldiers wore the Chabad Mashiach flag as a patch on their uniforms? (Herzi HaLevi infamously ripped one off, and now regulations have forbidden any non-military patch, which is fine with me.) Did they mean it? Of course not. People do all sorts of things.
Meh, I too often smile and nod along absently when Chabad folks are talking to me...
Rabbi Slifkin, with all due respect, I saw that you wrote a pamphlet many years ago trying to prove from the Gemara and Rishonim that the Rebbe cannot be Moshiach. Many Chabad rabbis have written similar pamphlets (the most notable being Rabbi Yehezkel Sofer, who lives in my neighborhood. He first wrote a short pamphlet, but then expanded it to a 300-page book!).
I have found that these arguments all fall on deaf ears, with the משיחיסט camp. Why? Because they are not seeking validation from traditional sources, but are basing their belief that the Rebbe can still be Moshiach, based on statements of the Rebbe himself. For example, there are quotes from the Rebbe where he refers to his father-in-law as "the Moshiach of the generation"--from which the משיחיסטים derive that there is nothing awry with believing that the Rebbe can still be Moshiah, even after he passed away. There is also a footnote where he wrote משיח (מנחם שמו) which Chassidim interpreted as him hinting that he is Moshiach. This is all of the "proof" that they require.
If I were in 770 receiving the same "Moshiach kit", I would have probably acted the same as Itamar Ben Gvir, because I feel it's not wise to make a controversy out of it.
I'm aware of that argument. The Ohr HaChaim makes a similar oblique reference to himself being Moshiah (משיח ה' שמו חיים) on Devarim 15:7. We don't see people still saying that the Ohr HaChaim could still be Moshiach!
The argument the משיחיסטים give is that, although most of the time, a person is supposed to serve Hashem according to what his intellect directs him to do, on occasion, a person is enjoined to serve Hashem even if something transcends his intellectual ability to understand. The משיחיסט camp would argue that this is one of those instances.
Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak Wilshansky o.b.m. recently passed away. He was the Rosh Yeshiva of the Chabad yeshiva in Tzfat, which is pretty much the "headquarters" of the משיחיסט camp. He once said, "I know that saying that the Rebbe is still Moshiach even after Gimmel Tammuz looks crazy--but the Rebbe himself said, "I am crazy about Moshiach!"" Rationalist arguments aren't going to work very well against that type of mindset.
The more moderate Chabadnikim that I know argue that the Rebbe was "the Moshiach of the generation". Once he passes away, that title is bestowed on someone else. One Chabad rabbi that I know argued thusly: Moshiach is supposed to build the Beis HaMikdash, and gather all the exiles. If someone builds 90% of the Beis HaMikdash, or gathers only 90% percent of all Jews and brings them to Israel, but then passes away, then it's a sign that the person was unfortunately not Moshiach. These are the two requirements that Moshiach must fulfill.
Nicely said, especially the burka analogy.
I don't get the BGDS... My parents were JDL founders, I grew up respecting Rav Kahane... Those same parents were JFK Democrats. None of us are racist, very much the opposite... And , yes, I can say that avout Itamar as well. Let the man speak; if you don't like what he has to say, get up and leave. He has a very legitimate constituency; I don't get the hysteria and panic here... Just seems like wokeism on steroids.
I'm so tzniyus I never leave my condo
hahaaa. I'm so tzanua I shower in my underclothes
I'm so machmer the angels cry and separate when I stroll into heaven.
>the more Right you are, the more right you are. But that’s as much of a logical fallacy as those who claim that since tzniyut involves covering up parts of the body, then a burqa is the ultimate expression of tzniyut.
touche`
Of course that's not what tzniyut is really about. The Roman Slave is a classical nude sculpture that 19th century ministers loved to have replicas of on their desks, as it shows how a completely nude person can still be modest.
Let us say that in 1939 there was an Israel (or a jewish army) and it would have had airplanes to bomb the camps/factories/etc. but it would have been seen as violating international law and the intl. community required that the Jews send soldiers to fight, risking not getting to the camps on time and losing the soldiers' lives.
Don't you think the moral thing to do would have been to bomb all those places instead of sending soldiers?
Don't you think that between how Israel is fighting and going ALL by itself there is a middle?
"Don't you think the moral thing to do would have been to bomb all those places instead of sending soldiers?"
That's exactly what Israel did, and continues to do
After sending leaflets and making calls to evacuate the buildings. That's not the way to defeat the enemy.
Tell me, do you think that there are any drawbacks to killing lots of civilians in Gaza?
I don't see anyone addressing the issue if it were 1939, so I assume you wouldn't have bombed the Germans and you would have complied with Intl. law and let the Holocaust continue.
Addressing your issue: Of course there are drawbacks but there are also windows of opportunities. We had the chance in 1948, 1967 and October 8th. 2023. Now it's too late but there are ways, like not providing food and electricity, or taking more land than what Israel takes.
It's the same argument with Judea & Samaria (J&S). The same thing the enemy did from Gaza they are going to do in J&S. Why are we waiting to do sth.?
not exactly - the point is they should've bombed the factories / camps while the Jews were there.......
thank you for always providing much-needed nuance. Seems harder and harder these days
It seems to me that still more nuance, as well as precision, are needed to evaluate the character and effectiveness of MK Ben Gvir.
"Incitement to racism" is very broad, not to mention subjective, for a criminal charge for a society that considers itself a liberal democracy that supposedly values both free speech and tolerance.
With the additional nuance of the deep state in Israel targeting extra judiciously through administrative detention and worse the youth of the hilltop and those who settle the land.
If you need deep State explained to you check in with Ronen Bar
The self-appointed court
The civil administration persecuting youth
The police who perpetrate the kaplanista's blocking highways for months
Do you need to be taken more seriously?
- "Deep state" is a conspiracy theory. I've read Bar's affidavit. Under oath, he discloses how the PM wanted him to use the state to persecute political opponents. If "deep state" is opposing this, then long live the deep state.
- The court isn't self-appointed. Educate yourself on the Committee for Judges Appointments regulations.
- Blocking roads is called demonstrations. What the police perpetrates is unheard-of violence against the demonstrators.
You're deflecting for the deep state, the court is unlike any other court and it is self-appointed and criminal and enabling other criminals.
Dear Natan,
Can you hear my applause all the way from Haifa?
"Recognize that those who oppose Ben Gvir include people who have skin in the game, who are smart and educated and right-wing and religious, and who sincerely believe — with reason — that Ben Gvir and 'Jewish Strength' are a dangerous threat to Israel’s survival. It has nothing (necessarily) to do with being woke, liberal, left, not understanding Arabs or not caring about Jewish lives."
Thank you for writing this — and for being a voice of honesty and reason. Your words matter more than you know.
Shocking how uncivil this comment chain has become - I'm guessing that most of the folks shouting at each other aren't nearly as far apart as the virulent expression would indicate. FWIW, I went to hear Ben-Gvir in Cedarhurst this Shabbos and he presented reasonably well, though I don't have enough background to evaluate him properly.
His appeal is clearly based on the fact that he doesn't mince words and is willing to take the strong line, rather than cater to the faux-empathy that has contaminated so much of politics.
I'm not a fan or not a fan of him - I don't know enough and I like (the rare) people who can be both strong and nuanced and empathetic (like Pierre Polievre) - but I don't like the hand-wringing and moral hesitation that hamstrings governments all over and he certainly has none of that, so I definitely understand the appeal.
Now don't jump down my throat - I'm not for or against.
For those who deny there is a religious Zionist alternative to Ben-Gvir, listen to:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/orthodox-conundrum/id1289716034?i=1000698513535
The Chamberlains of life.
"Meanwhile, Ben Gvir is propping up a government that enables and finances a quarter of draft-age soldiers to be exempt simply because they are charedi."
Let's start with a simple fact: Charedi yeshiva students do not want to be drafted, and the vast majority will avoid it at any cost. Have you seen the data published by Kan Bet radio (https://www.inn.co.il/news/667420)? Out of around 10,000 who received draft orders, only a few hundred were actually recruited — and even specially adapted units like Netzach Yehuda are struggling with a shortage of soldiers. Neither Ben Gvir nor any other politician will change these numbers, because you can't fight deeply ingrained ideologies.
Sure you can. Make sanctions instead of finanical benefits and you'll get thousands of recruits.
Let’s imagine a parallel scenario and push it to the extreme: suppose we live in a country where the government abruptly outlaws circumcision and penalizes those who defy the ban. How many observant Jews do you think would actually stop performing circumcisions on their children? While I support universal service, the ultra-Orthodox will never comply. Besides, Israel isn’t Putin’s Russia—there’s no threat of violent roundups forcing soldiers to draft offices or shipping them off to war.