Wow, we are really scraping the bottom of the barrel when we are in a war, and we have to be "grateful" that other Jews are even saying Tehillim and donating blood.
By the way, this should be labelled as a "clarification", not as an apology- you have nothing to apologize for. Keep your thoughts coming, and keep them strong. Those of us here in Israel, who are experiencing the exact dichotomy you so aptly describe, are behind you all the way.
I am an Oleh Chadash and agree that your opinion is 100% valid.
In the lottery of life I was either too young or too old to be drafted (by the US Army).
Both my sons, on the other hand, served as lone soldiers in the IDF and made Aliyah after their service in the 2nd Lebanon war. My youngest was in Nahal Charedi and spent 6 years in Hesder.
This week I volunteered to pack underwear, socks, and t-shirts (tens of thousands of items) at a base near Haifa. Haredim could easily volunteer next to me on that assembly line, or the one I worked at where we packed the (kosher) food for thousands of troops.
Or perhaps, if they won’t step foot on an army base, all of their able bodies are needed to pick the produce that’s rotting in the fields. If they care so much about Chalav Yisroel load up a bus and milk the cows before they die!
Why don't they? Maybe you should write a post about that. If the army would focus 0n adults above 28 perhaps they would have a lot more success drafting chareidim.
For the same reason that every other military recruits and drafts young people and extend the draft age as far as it needs to get the needed manpower. Are you aware of that?
It is not blind following. It is for the same real reasons There are physical, mental and practical reasons that 18-22yo are going to do much better in combat and other highly stressful roles. And to remind you again, there are plenty of people who thing that Torah is a top priority but also serve. What it takes to be Chareidi is also subject to question. Seems to be axiomatic in Israel, that you can't be Chareidi and have secular education, yet the Charedi/Yeshivish here in America are able to do it. The Gerrer and others used to do national service (not sure what they do now). There are lots of possibilities if there was a will do to it, but there isn't.
But wouldn't recruiting more people make a significant difference? You could increase the number of forces by a factor of 2 or more. How would we defend ourselves in a multi-front war, against not just Hamas, but also Hezbollah and Iran and a third Intifada and an uprising among Israeli Arabs?
You seems to be confused. Everyone eligible goes at a young age and then they are all subject to being called up. If they need more people they have to either make more people draft eligible (which is what you oppose) or else they have to call up older and older age reserves which has less benefit and higher cost, but yes that is what they might have to do if the war expands. The expansion you suggest is exactly what you oppose. Starting a recruitment drive among the few 28+ yo that were not eligible at 18 is not going to yield results; if they were useful they would have gotten them before. And they will be very limited as soldiers.
Because it's not true? It wasn't true in the American colonies either. His point is valid about the hypocrisy of using slavery metaphors when you hold slaves. But those from the anti-slavery parts of the North who also favored independence made the same observations about their colleagues. The first Massachusetts constitution was rejected in part because of insufficient anti-slavery provisions.
So you say the North weren't hypocrites, but concede the South were. OK, point still made.
Admit this much, and you too Nachum, if you're reading: The worst fear of any Israeli is God Forbid to be a Fraiyer. God Forbid that A should have something B doesn't. I cant tell you how many deals don't get done in Israel b/c of the overarching fear that someone God Forbid might get a nickel more than the other party. So admit that your obsession with the Charedim is totally selfish, and has nothing to with "responsibility" or "duty" or any of the baloney you keep peddling. Its nothing more than pure jealousy, that the Charedim shouldn't "get away" with something you think you can't, that you shouldn't be a Fraiyer. Can we at least admit that? If so, we will be a little bit closer to resolution.
Well no, your point was that the people who are complaining are people who didn't serve and the others really don't have such an issue with it. That wasn't true in colonial America and it is not true with respect to the IDF exemptions for Charedim.
Your second argument is petty clearly wrong as it could be used to justify any and all unfair or discriminatory policies.
If you were around soon after the war started, I noted that my charedi nephew in basic training was given such an assignment, and that Natan, out of work since the museum closed, should consider such himself if he was bereft of productive work (if museum work can be considered such) and had things to complain about. He chose to continue to complain.
"But the charedi community, for the most part, is simply not experiencing this to anything like the same degree."
You write this in terms of soldiers enrolment in the army and risking their lives.
As a non Israeli Charedi it also occured to me that many of the reservists are abandoning their families and jobs. Leaving the bulk of the family responsibilities to their wives. Leaving the economical burden to their co workers. I wonder what Shabbos davening looks like. Is the shul noticeably emptier?
Meanwhile in Charedi world it all goes on as usual. The Kollel families have their husbands to help out. The shuls are as full as ever. The rebbeim in schools all appear for duty.
This is not a comment on whether the charedim should be doing what they're doing.
It's an observation on how hard it must be for those who are struggling with the absence of their menfolk to view another Israeli community who don't have that same struggle.
Our shul is noticeably emptier than usual, both on Shabbat and during the week, almost everyone has a son in the army right now. And during the week a lot of people come in uniform going directly from minyan back to their base.
When we pray for the welfare of soldiers, it is not only a general prayer for all soldiers, but a prayer for the guy who normally sits next to you, or the son of a neighbor, or a work-colleague who is literally risking his life right now.
I have no idea whether this is also the feeling in Haredi kollels and shuls
Conversely, we are seeing remarkable achdus amount Israel, whether it's chasidim in Ashdod dancing in the street near the home of the girl soldier who was saved, or non frum chayalim singing songs of emunah and bitochon, or charedim bringing food and supplies to the soldiers (Mr Graucher, etc)
Times are bleak and it's pockets of positivity like this that can encourage and inspire us.
for all my fellow chareidim here, slifkin has a point, that absolutely no chareidim are serving and he sees that as a flaw. he's probably not wrong. same as why chareidim as a society never ever go to work. sure, a few, maybe even a large percentage should be devoted to torah, but why the distain for hishtadlus? it's not like this in america as far as work is concerned. people go to work. but in israel its like a badge of shame and horror so no one does it. right now i wouldn't worry about any real issues like slifkin often does in his doomsday predictions, but its for sure not the nest way for so many (reb elya ber shlita once flipped the famous netziv story had he become a shoemaker they would've asked him in shamayim where his haamek she'ala was - they're going to ask some people who are in the beis midrash where they're shoes are;)
even in america the 'chareidim' (yeshivish) who go to work understand that it's second tier but they proudly put on that hat and become supporters who are machshiv nothing more than torah. we know hundreds of those. but in israel, as israel always was, everything has to be extreme. either full time learner or hater. so slifkin is calling it out. i see nothing wrong with his point. (if only he would admit the positives sometimes; it would come off a lot better)
but the real reason we find this issue - i'll admit it's an issue - is because we are the people who promote kulo torah, which is, no question, the lechatchila. see reb moshe igros yd vol. 4 siman 36 at length. we believe that this is the approach for the klal, and the individuals who don't fit in should ask advice from their rabbeim. most yeshivish/chareidi rabbeim will advise people to go to work at some point if that's where they're up to
but the 18 who never tasted torah fully need to be kulo torah to even know where they fit before making the proper decision to not make this huge decision uninformed. so that's our chinuch. which leads to many (in israel) ignoring life's responsibilities without proper justification.
the army, which is at 18 specifically is obviously more complicated than work for this reason
That's very nice of you that you issued that apology, wasn't expecting that. Still, the rest of your post is deeply erroneous. You say "And what I noticed is that, by and large, the people who criticize my posts live in the US, or are charedi. Whereas, by and large, the people who appreciate my posts are in the IDF and/or have children in the IDF."
"In a recent post, a certain blogger set out to define what he believes to be the Datti Leumi position vis a vis the Charedim on the current war.
...
Most of the people that I am currently serving with, as well as many of my friends and acquaintances are Datti Leumi, and they certainly do not feel the way that this blogger contends that they do. Many of them have great admiration for full time Torah learners and realize the vital role that they play in both the moral and physical continuity of the Jewish people. Even among those who don’t share this appreciation of full time Torah learners, they tend to realize that this is a sincerely held position, that even if they feel is incorrect, is still deserving of respect.
....
n general there are 2 groups among the Datti Leumi who are truly resentful of charedim. The larger one is the hard left of the Datti Leumi community, that practices a “light” form of Judaism and is generally secular in their worldview. Their resentment of charedim is largely the result of a universal phenomena in which people resent those who are accomplishing that which they ostensibly believe in but are not themselves willing to make the effort to accomplish. This is a well known historical phenomena that has always caused resentment by the less authentically religious towards the more authentically religious. This resentment is unrelated to Army Service as they are equally resentful of the chardalim, who serve in the army with distinction.
....
The second group, and the one that is relevant to our discussion, is the community of largely English speaking immigrants to Israel, that adheres to a Datti Leumi ideology. Among this community, almost universally those that bitterly resent the non service of charedim in the army have themselves not served
....
Those around me (the religious ones, not speaking of the secular soldiers) are mostly from the Datti Leumi community, and generally share my opinion. Many have expressed it to me without being provoked. So no, our blogger’s position, while it is "a thing" among certain anglo immigrants, is not very mainstream among the Datti Leumi community, especially its more sincerely religious elements."
"But the charedi community, for the most part, is simply not experiencing this to anything like the same degree. We put our children’s lives on the line for them, and they do not do the same for us."
This is pure demagoguery. The IDF isn't fighting in Gaza to 'protect charedim.' Nor should they be. They're fighting to keep Israel safe from marauding terrorists who unleashed a brutal murderous attack on a bunch of non-charedi communities. Your demands for a charedi pound of flesh is understandable on an emotional level, but doesn't hold up to any sort of logical scrutiny. How many dead charedi soldiers would it take to assuage your rage and qualify as 'true achdus' to you?
The terrorists did not "unleash[] a brutal murderous attack on a bunch of non-charedi communities."
They attacked Israeli communities - they did not care whether they were Religious, Charedi, non-Haredi, Arab, or anything else.
If G-d forbid they had made it to Haredi communities in Ashdod or anywhere else they would have massacred Haredi babies as brutally as they attacked any other babies. The only thing that stopped them from murdering Haredim in Ashdod, or Bnei Brak, or anywhere else is that the IDF stopped them before they got there.
Whether you like it or not The IDF IS fighting in Gaza to 'protect charedim together with all other Israelis. We are in this battle together, and the only thing that is keeping you alive (assuming that you are in Israel) is the IDF. If for one minute the IDF decided not to protect the city you live in, you would be dead - that is the simple truth.
On Simchas Torah, my son's yeshiva didn't interrupt their simcha once for any of the sirens. He said they lost count at eight. I later heard there were around a dozen. They just kept dancing.
When you live as if Torah really protects, it protects. IDF or no IDF. The rest of us need to do some amount of hishtadlus.
Is there a traditional Jewish source that says the location of where the torah is learned makes any difference? Why should God care where the person is learning? Seems to me it should be like tefilah. That is so long as your having in mind. In fact it seems to me that moving to a makom Sakana goes against וְנִשְׁמַרְתֶּ֥ם מְאֹ֖ד לְנַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶ֑ם
as there is no need to move to extended whatever spiritual protection torah provides.
Yea, I was thinking that if a mezuza protects a home it should be on a second floor window, where a burglar is more likely to break in, than the front door, especially the rest of the doors inside the house. And bathrooms don't need protection? Obviously we don't really believe a mezuzah protects a home.
Always with the snark. Knowing nothing about it, if Otef Aza were closer hashkafically to my son's yeshiva, neither group would need to move closer physically.
A Jew who doesn't keep Shabbos puts himself outside the fold in various ways, so to speak. You can charge them interest, no different than the goyim. You keep Shabbos. The protection that Charedim's Limud Torah confers also devolves to you to some degree, even though you resent them and are terrible in many other ways.
Nothing happens to nobody that wasn't decreed from on high. Sometimes there is clarity as to why. More often not.
On my son's Yishuv, they *had* to interrupt their Simcha because 70 out of 100 men got called up to reserve duty. By Mincha there was barely a minyan of men still home.
If someone had -G-d forbid- walked into a building adjacent to your son's yeshiva with a gun and started shooting, would they still have continued dancing? What if the gunman walked into your son's Yeshiva? At what point would they have considered it their problem as well?
These kind of hypothetical questions are stupid and rude. Natan regularly speculates about highly improbable worst-case scenarios decades into the future with no justification other than, it could be. Who said anything about anyone's problems either? They live and breathe "Torah protects" and acted like it. No one knew what was going on. I live much closer to Gaza and we only had two sirens that day, and none since B"H. Fewer than many, including Natan in RBS.
Here's a more appropriate question for you. If there were no call ups in your yishuv, but a dozen sirens, what would your men have done? Danced or headed for the mamad? I speculate the latter, each and every time.
1-I repeat, sirens (missiles) are not the issue. Everyone can decide for themselves whether they want to go to a mamad or ignore the risk. Nevertheless, I don't see great virtue in the latter.
2- My question is neither hypothetical, stupid nor rude. If there were no call ups on my son's yishuv or anywhere else, what do you think would have happened in the last month?
Honestly not sure what I said that you disagree with. I was responding to the statement in the post 'We put our children’s lives on the line for them, and they do not do the same for us.' That statement was demagogic. I of course don't deny that Hamas would have massacred charedim given the opportunity. It doesn't follow that the IDF is somehow putting itself on the line *for charedim.*
Sorry if I am having trouble understanding you - I may be letting emotions take control of me, right now the funeral of Lavi Lipshitz who was killed yesterday in Gaza is walking past my home. He was a good friend of my daughter.
However, I still do not understand what you mean by claiming that the phrase "We put our children’s lives on the line for them, and they do not do the same for us." is demagogic.
Lavi Lipshitz gave up his life yesterday defending all Israelis, including Haredim. I have many friends, work colleagues, and neighbors who have children inside Gaza right now risking their lives for my children and your children, and all other citizens of Israel.
I am not sure where you live, but do you think that the typical Haredi mother in Israel is unable to sleep with worry about her son or husband or neighbor who is actively putting his life at risk right now to protect all citizens of Israel?
You are confusing a community with an individual. That mother with a son in 8200 may have other children fighting and belongs to a community where the parents cannot sleep at night.
Whereas in the chareidi community life continues as usual. Simchos, children (married or unmarried) coming for shabbos, yeshivos, schools, everything. No mother loses sleep about their children being killed. Do you not get it?
Im not sure why group worrying at night exempts an individual from her responsibility for worrying? Does a chareidi mother who worries about a friends child also get an exemption? What about a secular israeli mother who by nature doesnt worry much?
"I am not sure where you live, but do you think that the typical Haredi mother in Israel is unable to sleep with worry about her son or husband or neighbor who is actively putting his life at risk right now to protect all citizens of Israel?"
Probably not. And I live in America. I'm deeply concerned about my Israeli relatives though.
Well, as a religious Jew who might be forced to send his religious sons to a secular army, and who is (as a taxpaying citizen) sharing the financial burden of those in academia, I think that we have a right to know the parameters of this obligation.
I'm going to make some comments here, but as a fat American with only one child so far who was eligible to the Israeli draft (who did not pursue an exemption), I understand that I don't same skin in the game.
If you're claiming that it is a concrete chiyuv, which obligates us to close our gemaras and expose sons and daughters to a virulent secular environment
There are religious people in the IDF from a variety of backgrounds. I have spoken to some and they do not characterize the IDF and a virulent secular environment.
, while others serve in cushy army radio divisions or the Intelligence Corps unit 8200 instead,
All armies require radio, intelligence (and I'm sure some are risky) and many non-combatant staff positions. You do have to fill those positions or you don't have an effective army and lives are lost.
and fund those in academia, as concrete halachah, then I think that you should provide some concrete specifics.
1. Is this obligation dependent upon time?
Does the obligation to serve in a Milchemes Mitzvah even apply when the State of Israel is not on an active war footing? Does it apply on Shabbos? During Yom Kippur?
Yes, of course. The 1973 War started on Yom Kippur.
If yes - then why does the IDF allow many soldiers to go home on the weekends and holidays when we are under constant obligation to be vigilant for any massive sneak attack by our sworn Arab enemies?
For the same reason that soldiers sleep at night. To have an effective fighting force, you have to use people and not robots and they need time off, so you rotate things around while keeping as effective force as possible at all times. The IDF is a 24x7 operation.
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Freelance Kiruv Maniac (Mr. Hyde)July 17, 2013 at 11:50 PM
"There are religious people in the IDF from a variety of backgrounds. I have spoken to some and they do not characterize the IDF and a virulent secular environment."
Without meaning to insult the people you have spoken to, I believe that those who are devoutly religious and are unwilling to compromise their religious principles do indeed find much resistance and even harassment in their attempt to have their standards accommodated.
Haven't you heard of the three religious soldiers who were court-marshaled for merely walking out of an IDF ceremony when a female soldier started singing?
The Chareidi soldier is in for much worse.
"All armies require radio, intelligence (and I'm sure some are risky) and many non-combatant staff positions. You do have to fill those positions or you don't have an effective army and lives are lost."
This response is humorous because you don't know what "army radio" means in Israel. I'm referring to "Galgalatz" which is a popular rock station geared to entertain secular soldiers. Trust me, it has nothing to do with army communications and intelligence!
"Yes, of course. The 1973 War started on Yom Kippur."
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I meant this past Yom Kippur of 2012.
"For the same reason that soldiers sleep at night. To have an effective fighting force, you have to use people and not robots and they need time off, so you rotate things around while keeping as effective force as possible at all times. The IDF is a 24x7 operation."
You are assuming that the IDF keeps up its level pf preparedness on a constant basis--even through Shabbat and Holidays.
My impression is that the IDF routinely releases many many religious soldiers form active duty on Shabbos and Yom Tov at the expense of maintaining heightened preparedness, simply because the country is NOT currently on a war footing and we are not currently engaged in a Milchemes Mitzvah. That is the point I'm making.
Check out the facts and get back to me.
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EDIT- Internal italics unfortunately omitted. Beyond my technical expertise. Comments are preserved at the link.
You probably should make it clear that the IDF are fighting and dying to protect Charedim along with everyone else before you go on with whatever point you are trying to make.
The IDF are fighting and dying to protect Charedim along with everyone else. The IDF are fighting and dying to protect Charedim along with everyone else....
You are completely wrong. The IDF is fighting to protect *all* Israelis including Charedim. The Charedim (as a rule, not all) are free-riders. As are all of us who sit in the US who also benefit, albeit more indirectly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-rider_problem
Right. I'm a free rider on the US Army, the NYPD, the Navy Seals, the Shin Bet, the Mossad, Shomrim, and probably US border patrol every once in a while when they're in the mood. I like to wrack up the free rider frequent flyer miles.
As to the substance (such that is) of your comment, given that you seem to have confabulated the basis for the alleged need for more soldiers, there really isn't any reason to respond to it.
But since I'm a divisive, hate-filled, charedi-sympathizer, I'll just note that there's no free rider issue problem in this case. Even granting (SOLELY for the sake of argument!) that charedim are all a bunch of leeches who contribute nothing to anyone, you would have to assume that the chayalim in Gaza are there because of some economic benefit, rather than, say, a sense of responsibility, for it to be relevant.
It would be quite an odd time to be making that sort of argument.
That's not the free-rider problem and you have the thing entirely backwards. The US Army and the others you mention are volunteer forces. You pay for them in tax dollars and they voluntarily take your money to do their jobs. They also probably do it out of principle, and in that sense we get a bargain out of them since they do it despite losing something the bargain, but they are volunteers.
Israel relies on a draft. There is simply an agreement that everyone will sacrifice years of life and safety for the good of the entire country. To the degree that Charedim don't participate, they are free riding because they get the benefit of the protection without giving up years of life or safety in the bargain. Because they are doing it to save the country and not in their own interest and not for any sufficient monetary compensation is precisely why it is a free ride. You get something but you don't contribute. In the US, its is less of a free ride, but we get still benefit from Israel being there open to us at any time we'd like to come and we pay nothing compared to the people who serve.
"That's not the free-rider problem and you have the thing entirely backwards. The US Army and the others you mention are volunteer forces. You pay for them in tax dollars and they voluntarily take your money to do their jobs. "
Completely irrelevant. Which part of the free rider problem involves the voluntary versus compelled nature of the good provided?
"Israel relies on a draft. There is simply an agreement that everyone will sacrifice years of life and safety for the good of the entire country. "
This is nutty on so many different levels. Who made this 'agreement' exactly??? And for all your rambling, you haven't explained why having charedim in the country creates a free rider *problem.* If they all went to Uganda en masse, the IDF would somehow be less in need of their services???
"In the US, its is less of a free ride, but we get still benefit from Israel being there open to us at any time we'd like to come and we pay nothing compared to the people who serve."
I see. Sounds super rational and logical. I guess I free ride on India too. They take in all the backpacking Israelis so I can come take those Israelis' place in Israel.
"Completely irrelevant. Which part of the free rider problem involves the voluntary versus compelled nature of the good provided?"
Because they if it is voluntary, they are compensated. You don't "free ride" off of farmers or doctors even though they provide you with food and health care and you avoid backbreaking labor in the field or studying medicine for 8 years. You pay for that. When it is compelled, then they are giving up something in return for nothing (or much less than what it would take to compensate them). They do that as part of an agreement that everyone else does the same so we are all better off. If you don't participate, then you are a free rider.
"This is nutty on so many different levels. Who made this 'agreement' exactly???"
Ummm, the people through their elected leaders and then of course the vast majority of the country who actually go along with sacrificing year of life and safety for it it? There are problems with majoritarian rule and minority rights, but there is no political party this is advocating for disbanding the IDF, so that is not an issue. Everyone wants the army to continue protecting them. They just don't want to give up their own years of life and safety for that. They want others to do that.
"And for all your rambling, you haven't explained why having charedim in the country creates a free rider *problem.* If they all went to Uganda en masse, the IDF would somehow be less in need of their services???"
Yes and if every group but the Charedim left en masse, then you would also need the IDF to continue to provide protection. I'm not sure what you think that you are proving with that?
"I see. Sounds super rational and logical. I guess I free ride on India too."
I think that comparison explains a lot about what Israel means to you.
"Ummm, the people through their elected leaders and then of course the vast majority of the country who actually go along with sacrificing year of life and safety for it it?"
When was this 'agreement' signed onto in the first place? And are the Arab parties signed on to it too? Inquiring minds would like to know.
"There are problems with majoritarian rule and minority rights, but there is no political party this is advocating for disbanding the IDF, so that is not an issue."
You're equating ending a mandatory draft with disbanding the IDF . The 2 are not the same. The US army didn't cease to exist when they stopped drafting people.
"Yes and if every group but the Charedim left en masse, then you would also need the IDF to continue to provide protection. I'm not sure what you think that you are proving with that?"
I'm proving that their presence obviously isn't creating a free rider problem. Any more than all the draft dodging potential Ugandan olim would be
"I think that comparison explains a lot about what Israel means to you."
Thanks for sharing your insights into my psyche. They're not particularly *good* insights, but I'll take what I can get.
I can't speak for him, but here are some facts: When he came to Israel he was a Charedi. By the time he switched over to being an RZ he was past the age when the IDF wants you. His daughter volunteered to join the IDF when she could have done national service.
That's wonderful. The country doesn't want everyone to stop doing their day jobs to join the IDF now. But if you want to go over there, there are plenty of volunteer opportunities for you.
"How would we defend ourselves in a multi-front war, against not just Hamas, but also Hezbollah and Iran and a third Intifada and an uprising among Israeli Arabs? " (You forgot to mention the possibility that Iran may ח"ו go nuclear soon.)
Do you know anyone in the world that has the answer to this burning question? Do really believe that increasing the size of the army by a third will make that much of a difference in such a dire situation?
Perhaps it is time to reflect on who put us in such a dire situation.
Perhaps it is time to reflect on the idea that אין לנו להשען אלא אלא על אבינו, אבינו שבשמים.
Uh, yes, I think a 50% difference in the size of the army would make a significant difference. And I don't see why having them in yeshiva instead would help.
I doubt it would make a significant difference, they can't even equip the people they have now, let alone in a hypothetical "what-if" scenario. Where is your quantitative analysis of how much of a difference they would make in the "what-if" scenario? And it wouldn't be a 50% increase, maybe you mean in another generation.
A large increase in economic output by educating another sector of society for gainful employment would also help a lot even if the army were its optimal size. We are relying on aid from other countries to stay afloat and that both comes with strings and may not last forever. In addition, right now, the callups leave the economy with gaping holes. The more gainfully employed, the less devastating the effect of callups.
There are plenty of very dedicated and believing Jews who serve so I don't know who "we" is. Defending the country is not a hypothetical and neither are the economic needs. So no, it think that your statement is demonstrably false.
I didn't say someone who serves is not religious. I said that someone who attacks all those who learn based on hypothetical scenarios, which is what you did, obviously does not understand the value of Torah and the fact that only immediate and extreme demands can necessitate closing yeshivos.
So those who learn full time and have cleared out of Yeshiva because they were called up to fight don't believe in the Torah? There is a war going on which is an immediate an extreme demand which is why those Yeshivas are emptied out from those called up. What hypothetical are you talking about? The emergency is happening *right now* and right now the country is in trouble and relies on the US for resupply and protection while it remains in an unsustainable economic position.
Do we need to keep going around in circles? I never criticized people going to the army. I responded to what you wrote "A large increase in economic output by educating another sector of society for gainful employment would also help a lot even if the army were its optimal size" etc.
Evidently, it is not such an emergency that would necessitate calling up museum curators. Or maybe it is, but they are still not doing that for some reason.
agree with yehoshua here. you guys need to learn to come from our perspective, which like it or not is a valid Jewish perspective. we can argue that i think mine is the only valid and you think yours is the only valid but let's say that there are two sets both valid. if you wish to change our system, you must take into account what we believe. which is torah is really important. it is what we are here for.. it is how we get close to God. and as reb moshe says in his tshuva YD vol 4 siman 36, klal yorole needs gedolei yisroel and we are at a big lack even with the yeshiva system. every inividual chareidi who appreciates torah has an achrayos to keep it alive and thriving, paskening, teaching, living it. we need a system to cater to the idea of kulo torah even if there will be floaters as there are in every society.
if you argue on our grounds, appreciating our POV, we can probably brainstorm with the good minds here to try to implement.
if slifkin can't even admit that torah is important "And I don't see why having them in yeshiva instead would help." we are just talking past each other and the hate will continue, despite him thinking he is helping the cause. those who disagree will continue to and those who agree will continue to; he's preaching to the choir unless he changes his tune to acknowledge us where we are coming from
"you must take into account what we believe. which is torah is really important. it is what we are here for.. it is how we get close to God. and as reb moshe says in his tshuva YD vol 4 siman 36, klal yorole needs gedolei yisroel and we are at a big lack even with the yeshiva system."
Do you understand that there is a whole segment of Israeli society who believe all that and then go out to fight when there is a war AND that if they didn't do so, Israel would be in big trouble? In fact they serve in the IDF precicesly *because* they believe in the importance of Torah.
You bleating the same thing again and again without regard for the complete lack of logic in your argument just reflects your obvious intellectual limitations.
RNS is upset the whole charedi community does not enlist because even limmud torah is no ptur. This logic would require him to enlist even though he is part of a community that as a whole do serve. His allegiance to others who are the army does not magically provide him an exemption.
Nowhere in the sugyot is there an exemption over a certain age
An exemption in the halachic sense. If he does not have an exemption (and he claims fealty to halacha), then he has no right to push for the enlistment of others
Once again Noson has gone into Jesus mode (and those who agree with him are, nebuch, his "apostles"). When you apologize for something you've done wrong, you may at the same time offer an excuse for your error, that you were foolish, or you were influenced by others, etc. But when you qualify your apology with reasoning why you were really right or partially right, then your apology is no apology at all. You are the same as all the pundits (fools and reshayim) that say, "What Hamas did on Oct. 7 was horrible... BUT, the occupation for 75 years, the Israeli have been brutally persecuting the Palestinians, yada yada yada." At least Hamas is honest by saying, "ya we did it and we will do it again."
Just like all the pro-Hamas protesters around the world are motivated by antisemitism, Noson is just motivated by pathological hatred of Chareidim for what was done to him 19 years ago. His rants have NOTHING to do with any theological or rational position, they are only a product of his hatred.
"R Adlerstein... made the point that Charedi life goes on more or less as usual, while the lives of other groups are very disrupted (where disrupted is a vast understatement)."
this is an important sentence. when this whole thing first broke out, i admit i was shaken up and very, very moved. my life was not the same. but times moves on and i find myself back to normal, which shouldn't be. i live in america so its a whole different story. but we should NOT be continuing the same old. it's achzarius even now to not remember those mothers/wives/children who's kids/husbands/fathers were sent to fight. 16 times whatever number of mothers and wives and children are never going to see there father husband or son again! many people just lost friends and cousins and brothers. we can't let time cool us off even if we are not serving personally for whatever reason.
Wow, we are really scraping the bottom of the barrel when we are in a war, and we have to be "grateful" that other Jews are even saying Tehillim and donating blood.
By the way, this should be labelled as a "clarification", not as an apology- you have nothing to apologize for. Keep your thoughts coming, and keep them strong. Those of us here in Israel, who are experiencing the exact dichotomy you so aptly describe, are behind you all the way.
No, we should be grateful that people are keeping museums open.
By the way, when this says "Liked by Natan Slifkin", that means he endorses the second part, that he has nothing to apologize for?
I am an Oleh Chadash and agree that your opinion is 100% valid.
In the lottery of life I was either too young or too old to be drafted (by the US Army).
Both my sons, on the other hand, served as lone soldiers in the IDF and made Aliyah after their service in the 2nd Lebanon war. My youngest was in Nahal Charedi and spent 6 years in Hesder.
This week I volunteered to pack underwear, socks, and t-shirts (tens of thousands of items) at a base near Haifa. Haredim could easily volunteer next to me on that assembly line, or the one I worked at where we packed the (kosher) food for thousands of troops.
Or perhaps, if they won’t step foot on an army base, all of their able bodies are needed to pick the produce that’s rotting in the fields. If they care so much about Chalav Yisroel load up a bus and milk the cows before they die!
Rant over.
Please explain why RNS has not joined the army yet?
Cut it out. The IDF doesn't take people past a certain age- a pretty low age- unless you try really, really hard, and even then it's not combat.
Why don't they? Maybe you should write a post about that. If the army would focus 0n adults above 28 perhaps they would have a lot more success drafting chareidim.
For the same reason that every other military recruits and drafts young people and extend the draft age as far as it needs to get the needed manpower. Are you aware of that?
SInce when do we copy other nations blindly?
Yidden have priorities and training our children to spend the prime of their youth engrossed in Torah study is our top priority.
Until Israeli society recognizes this they will never be able to work with the chareidim.
It is not blind following. It is for the same real reasons There are physical, mental and practical reasons that 18-22yo are going to do much better in combat and other highly stressful roles. And to remind you again, there are plenty of people who thing that Torah is a top priority but also serve. What it takes to be Chareidi is also subject to question. Seems to be axiomatic in Israel, that you can't be Chareidi and have secular education, yet the Charedi/Yeshivish here in America are able to do it. The Gerrer and others used to do national service (not sure what they do now). There are lots of possibilities if there was a will do to it, but there isn't.
But wouldn't recruiting more people make a significant difference? You could increase the number of forces by a factor of 2 or more. How would we defend ourselves in a multi-front war, against not just Hamas, but also Hezbollah and Iran and a third Intifada and an uprising among Israeli Arabs?
You seems to be confused. Everyone eligible goes at a young age and then they are all subject to being called up. If they need more people they have to either make more people draft eligible (which is what you oppose) or else they have to call up older and older age reserves which has less benefit and higher cost, but yes that is what they might have to do if the war expands. The expansion you suggest is exactly what you oppose. Starting a recruitment drive among the few 28+ yo that were not eligible at 18 is not going to yield results; if they were useful they would have gotten them before. And they will be very limited as soldiers.
Whats wrong with not combat? The new chareidi recruits are cooks and drivers...
Samuel Johnson, in England, asked about the pre-1776 Americans, "How is it that the loudest yelps for liberty are heard from the drivers of negroes?"
We might ask the same: "How is it that the loudest complaints against charedim are heard from those who never served themselves?"
Because it's not true? It wasn't true in the American colonies either. His point is valid about the hypocrisy of using slavery metaphors when you hold slaves. But those from the anti-slavery parts of the North who also favored independence made the same observations about their colleagues. The first Massachusetts constitution was rejected in part because of insufficient anti-slavery provisions.
So you say the North weren't hypocrites, but concede the South were. OK, point still made.
Admit this much, and you too Nachum, if you're reading: The worst fear of any Israeli is God Forbid to be a Fraiyer. God Forbid that A should have something B doesn't. I cant tell you how many deals don't get done in Israel b/c of the overarching fear that someone God Forbid might get a nickel more than the other party. So admit that your obsession with the Charedim is totally selfish, and has nothing to with "responsibility" or "duty" or any of the baloney you keep peddling. Its nothing more than pure jealousy, that the Charedim shouldn't "get away" with something you think you can't, that you shouldn't be a Fraiyer. Can we at least admit that? If so, we will be a little bit closer to resolution.
Well no, your point was that the people who are complaining are people who didn't serve and the others really don't have such an issue with it. That wasn't true in colonial America and it is not true with respect to the IDF exemptions for Charedim.
Your second argument is petty clearly wrong as it could be used to justify any and all unfair or discriminatory policies.
So? He could volunteer for the chevra kadisha and assist in the identification of bodies.
You must be a truly vile person
If you were around soon after the war started, I noted that my charedi nephew in basic training was given such an assignment, and that Natan, out of work since the museum closed, should consider such himself if he was bereft of productive work (if museum work can be considered such) and had things to complain about. He chose to continue to complain.
I am Shockpuppet, after all.
It takes a lot of guts and humility to publicly admit one is wrong - qualities rarely seen in public. יישר כח
"But the charedi community, for the most part, is simply not experiencing this to anything like the same degree."
You write this in terms of soldiers enrolment in the army and risking their lives.
As a non Israeli Charedi it also occured to me that many of the reservists are abandoning their families and jobs. Leaving the bulk of the family responsibilities to their wives. Leaving the economical burden to their co workers. I wonder what Shabbos davening looks like. Is the shul noticeably emptier?
Meanwhile in Charedi world it all goes on as usual. The Kollel families have their husbands to help out. The shuls are as full as ever. The rebbeim in schools all appear for duty.
This is not a comment on whether the charedim should be doing what they're doing.
It's an observation on how hard it must be for those who are struggling with the absence of their menfolk to view another Israeli community who don't have that same struggle.
Right. My niece has five small children and hasn't seen her husband since Simchat Torah.
BTW this article is the 2nd top in substack ls religious category
cool! how do you check that?
Came up in notes.
well said.
Our shul is noticeably emptier than usual, both on Shabbat and during the week, almost everyone has a son in the army right now. And during the week a lot of people come in uniform going directly from minyan back to their base.
When we pray for the welfare of soldiers, it is not only a general prayer for all soldiers, but a prayer for the guy who normally sits next to you, or the son of a neighbor, or a work-colleague who is literally risking his life right now.
I have no idea whether this is also the feeling in Haredi kollels and shuls
Conversely, we are seeing remarkable achdus amount Israel, whether it's chasidim in Ashdod dancing in the street near the home of the girl soldier who was saved, or non frum chayalim singing songs of emunah and bitochon, or charedim bringing food and supplies to the soldiers (Mr Graucher, etc)
Times are bleak and it's pockets of positivity like this that can encourage and inspire us.
slifkin, thx for the clarification and apology.
for all my fellow chareidim here, slifkin has a point, that absolutely no chareidim are serving and he sees that as a flaw. he's probably not wrong. same as why chareidim as a society never ever go to work. sure, a few, maybe even a large percentage should be devoted to torah, but why the distain for hishtadlus? it's not like this in america as far as work is concerned. people go to work. but in israel its like a badge of shame and horror so no one does it. right now i wouldn't worry about any real issues like slifkin often does in his doomsday predictions, but its for sure not the nest way for so many (reb elya ber shlita once flipped the famous netziv story had he become a shoemaker they would've asked him in shamayim where his haamek she'ala was - they're going to ask some people who are in the beis midrash where they're shoes are;)
even in america the 'chareidim' (yeshivish) who go to work understand that it's second tier but they proudly put on that hat and become supporters who are machshiv nothing more than torah. we know hundreds of those. but in israel, as israel always was, everything has to be extreme. either full time learner or hater. so slifkin is calling it out. i see nothing wrong with his point. (if only he would admit the positives sometimes; it would come off a lot better)
but the real reason we find this issue - i'll admit it's an issue - is because we are the people who promote kulo torah, which is, no question, the lechatchila. see reb moshe igros yd vol. 4 siman 36 at length. we believe that this is the approach for the klal, and the individuals who don't fit in should ask advice from their rabbeim. most yeshivish/chareidi rabbeim will advise people to go to work at some point if that's where they're up to
but the 18 who never tasted torah fully need to be kulo torah to even know where they fit before making the proper decision to not make this huge decision uninformed. so that's our chinuch. which leads to many (in israel) ignoring life's responsibilities without proper justification.
the army, which is at 18 specifically is obviously more complicated than work for this reason
(i wrote a lot of this below https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-retraction-and-apology-and-a-non/comment/42887229 but it's really my response to the whole post so i'm doubling it)
the torah protects idea is of course true, but that isn't the reason why we don't join the army: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/do-charedim-really-believe-that-torah/comment/42848369 let's be more nuanced here
You are exactly on point.
That's very nice of you that you issued that apology, wasn't expecting that. Still, the rest of your post is deeply erroneous. You say "And what I noticed is that, by and large, the people who criticize my posts live in the US, or are charedi. Whereas, by and large, the people who appreciate my posts are in the IDF and/or have children in the IDF."
-That's funny, my Religious Zionist friend in the IDF, may God keep him and everybody else safe, says the opposite. https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2
"In a recent post, a certain blogger set out to define what he believes to be the Datti Leumi position vis a vis the Charedim on the current war.
...
Most of the people that I am currently serving with, as well as many of my friends and acquaintances are Datti Leumi, and they certainly do not feel the way that this blogger contends that they do. Many of them have great admiration for full time Torah learners and realize the vital role that they play in both the moral and physical continuity of the Jewish people. Even among those who don’t share this appreciation of full time Torah learners, they tend to realize that this is a sincerely held position, that even if they feel is incorrect, is still deserving of respect.
....
n general there are 2 groups among the Datti Leumi who are truly resentful of charedim. The larger one is the hard left of the Datti Leumi community, that practices a “light” form of Judaism and is generally secular in their worldview. Their resentment of charedim is largely the result of a universal phenomena in which people resent those who are accomplishing that which they ostensibly believe in but are not themselves willing to make the effort to accomplish. This is a well known historical phenomena that has always caused resentment by the less authentically religious towards the more authentically religious. This resentment is unrelated to Army Service as they are equally resentful of the chardalim, who serve in the army with distinction.
....
The second group, and the one that is relevant to our discussion, is the community of largely English speaking immigrants to Israel, that adheres to a Datti Leumi ideology. Among this community, almost universally those that bitterly resent the non service of charedim in the army have themselves not served
....
Those around me (the religious ones, not speaking of the secular soldiers) are mostly from the Datti Leumi community, and generally share my opinion. Many have expressed it to me without being provoked. So no, our blogger’s position, while it is "a thing" among certain anglo immigrants, is not very mainstream among the Datti Leumi community, especially its more sincerely religious elements."
"But the charedi community, for the most part, is simply not experiencing this to anything like the same degree. We put our children’s lives on the line for them, and they do not do the same for us."
This is pure demagoguery. The IDF isn't fighting in Gaza to 'protect charedim.' Nor should they be. They're fighting to keep Israel safe from marauding terrorists who unleashed a brutal murderous attack on a bunch of non-charedi communities. Your demands for a charedi pound of flesh is understandable on an emotional level, but doesn't hold up to any sort of logical scrutiny. How many dead charedi soldiers would it take to assuage your rage and qualify as 'true achdus' to you?
The terrorists did not "unleash[] a brutal murderous attack on a bunch of non-charedi communities."
They attacked Israeli communities - they did not care whether they were Religious, Charedi, non-Haredi, Arab, or anything else.
If G-d forbid they had made it to Haredi communities in Ashdod or anywhere else they would have massacred Haredi babies as brutally as they attacked any other babies. The only thing that stopped them from murdering Haredim in Ashdod, or Bnei Brak, or anywhere else is that the IDF stopped them before they got there.
Whether you like it or not The IDF IS fighting in Gaza to 'protect charedim together with all other Israelis. We are in this battle together, and the only thing that is keeping you alive (assuming that you are in Israel) is the IDF. If for one minute the IDF decided not to protect the city you live in, you would be dead - that is the simple truth.
Yes, but chareidim will say the torah learning protected them.
When things work out, torah learning protects.
When things go wrong, torah learning still protects but it was a "time of hester ponim' or 'Hashem has his cheshbonos, we don't understand'.
Go figure.
On Simchas Torah, my son's yeshiva didn't interrupt their simcha once for any of the sirens. He said they lost count at eight. I later heard there were around a dozen. They just kept dancing.
When you live as if Torah really protects, it protects. IDF or no IDF. The rest of us need to do some amount of hishtadlus.
Great! Why don't they move to Otef Aza to share their protection?
Is there a traditional Jewish source that says the location of where the torah is learned makes any difference? Why should God care where the person is learning? Seems to me it should be like tefilah. That is so long as your having in mind. In fact it seems to me that moving to a makom Sakana goes against וְנִשְׁמַרְתֶּ֥ם מְאֹ֖ד לְנַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶ֑ם
as there is no need to move to extended whatever spiritual protection torah provides.
Yea, I was thinking that if a mezuza protects a home it should be on a second floor window, where a burglar is more likely to break in, than the front door, especially the rest of the doors inside the house. And bathrooms don't need protection? Obviously we don't really believe a mezuzah protects a home.
Always with the snark. Knowing nothing about it, if Otef Aza were closer hashkafically to my son's yeshiva, neither group would need to move closer physically.
A Jew who doesn't keep Shabbos puts himself outside the fold in various ways, so to speak. You can charge them interest, no different than the goyim. You keep Shabbos. The protection that Charedim's Limud Torah confers also devolves to you to some degree, even though you resent them and are terrible in many other ways.
Nothing happens to nobody that wasn't decreed from on high. Sometimes there is clarity as to why. More often not.
It wasn't just sirens.
On my son's Yishuv, they *had* to interrupt their Simcha because 70 out of 100 men got called up to reserve duty. By Mincha there was barely a minyan of men still home.
If someone had -G-d forbid- walked into a building adjacent to your son's yeshiva with a gun and started shooting, would they still have continued dancing? What if the gunman walked into your son's Yeshiva? At what point would they have considered it their problem as well?
These kind of hypothetical questions are stupid and rude. Natan regularly speculates about highly improbable worst-case scenarios decades into the future with no justification other than, it could be. Who said anything about anyone's problems either? They live and breathe "Torah protects" and acted like it. No one knew what was going on. I live much closer to Gaza and we only had two sirens that day, and none since B"H. Fewer than many, including Natan in RBS.
Here's a more appropriate question for you. If there were no call ups in your yishuv, but a dozen sirens, what would your men have done? Danced or headed for the mamad? I speculate the latter, each and every time.
1-I repeat, sirens (missiles) are not the issue. Everyone can decide for themselves whether they want to go to a mamad or ignore the risk. Nevertheless, I don't see great virtue in the latter.
2- My question is neither hypothetical, stupid nor rude. If there were no call ups on my son's yishuv or anywhere else, what do you think would have happened in the last month?
"When you live as if Torah really protects, it protects".
Until it's suddenly a time of 'hester ponim' or Hashem 'has his cheshbonos'.
Thanks for quoting me!
Honestly not sure what I said that you disagree with. I was responding to the statement in the post 'We put our children’s lives on the line for them, and they do not do the same for us.' That statement was demagogic. I of course don't deny that Hamas would have massacred charedim given the opportunity. It doesn't follow that the IDF is somehow putting itself on the line *for charedim.*
Sorry if I am having trouble understanding you - I may be letting emotions take control of me, right now the funeral of Lavi Lipshitz who was killed yesterday in Gaza is walking past my home. He was a good friend of my daughter.
However, I still do not understand what you mean by claiming that the phrase "We put our children’s lives on the line for them, and they do not do the same for us." is demagogic.
Lavi Lipshitz gave up his life yesterday defending all Israelis, including Haredim. I have many friends, work colleagues, and neighbors who have children inside Gaza right now risking their lives for my children and your children, and all other citizens of Israel.
I am not sure where you live, but do you think that the typical Haredi mother in Israel is unable to sleep with worry about her son or husband or neighbor who is actively putting his life at risk right now to protect all citizens of Israel?
Michael, a mother whos son is in 8200 can also sleep at night, that is not fair but I am not sure what your point is
You are confusing a community with an individual. That mother with a son in 8200 may have other children fighting and belongs to a community where the parents cannot sleep at night.
Whereas in the chareidi community life continues as usual. Simchos, children (married or unmarried) coming for shabbos, yeshivos, schools, everything. No mother loses sleep about their children being killed. Do you not get it?
Im not sure why group worrying at night exempts an individual from her responsibility for worrying? Does a chareidi mother who worries about a friends child also get an exemption? What about a secular israeli mother who by nature doesnt worry much?
Also the child in 8200 is still not there to be with his or her family.
"right now the funeral of Lavi Lipshitz who was killed yesterday in Gaza is walking past my home. He was a good friend of my daughter."
I'm sorry to hear that. This interview was truly heartbreaking. https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/s1svbp0m6
"I am not sure where you live, but do you think that the typical Haredi mother in Israel is unable to sleep with worry about her son or husband or neighbor who is actively putting his life at risk right now to protect all citizens of Israel?"
Probably not. And I live in America. I'm deeply concerned about my Israeli relatives though.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/idf-exemptions-the-crucial-distinction/comment/42498235
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-soldiers-are-really-doing-stuff-82e/comment/41870656
You have trouble understanding him because he is arguments are not coherent. It is not your emotions.
Just gonna leave this https://slifkinchallenge.blogspot.com/2013/06/parameters-please.html?showComment=1372719565374 here:
David OhsieJuly 2, 2013 at 1:59 AM
Well, as a religious Jew who might be forced to send his religious sons to a secular army, and who is (as a taxpaying citizen) sharing the financial burden of those in academia, I think that we have a right to know the parameters of this obligation.
I'm going to make some comments here, but as a fat American with only one child so far who was eligible to the Israeli draft (who did not pursue an exemption), I understand that I don't same skin in the game.
If you're claiming that it is a concrete chiyuv, which obligates us to close our gemaras and expose sons and daughters to a virulent secular environment
There are religious people in the IDF from a variety of backgrounds. I have spoken to some and they do not characterize the IDF and a virulent secular environment.
, while others serve in cushy army radio divisions or the Intelligence Corps unit 8200 instead,
All armies require radio, intelligence (and I'm sure some are risky) and many non-combatant staff positions. You do have to fill those positions or you don't have an effective army and lives are lost.
and fund those in academia, as concrete halachah, then I think that you should provide some concrete specifics.
1. Is this obligation dependent upon time?
Does the obligation to serve in a Milchemes Mitzvah even apply when the State of Israel is not on an active war footing? Does it apply on Shabbos? During Yom Kippur?
Yes, of course. The 1973 War started on Yom Kippur.
If yes - then why does the IDF allow many soldiers to go home on the weekends and holidays when we are under constant obligation to be vigilant for any massive sneak attack by our sworn Arab enemies?
For the same reason that soldiers sleep at night. To have an effective fighting force, you have to use people and not robots and they need time off, so you rotate things around while keeping as effective force as possible at all times. The IDF is a 24x7 operation.
Reply
Freelance Kiruv Maniac (Mr. Hyde)July 17, 2013 at 11:50 PM
"There are religious people in the IDF from a variety of backgrounds. I have spoken to some and they do not characterize the IDF and a virulent secular environment."
Without meaning to insult the people you have spoken to, I believe that those who are devoutly religious and are unwilling to compromise their religious principles do indeed find much resistance and even harassment in their attempt to have their standards accommodated.
Haven't you heard of the three religious soldiers who were court-marshaled for merely walking out of an IDF ceremony when a female soldier started singing?
The Chareidi soldier is in for much worse.
"All armies require radio, intelligence (and I'm sure some are risky) and many non-combatant staff positions. You do have to fill those positions or you don't have an effective army and lives are lost."
This response is humorous because you don't know what "army radio" means in Israel. I'm referring to "Galgalatz" which is a popular rock station geared to entertain secular soldiers. Trust me, it has nothing to do with army communications and intelligence!
"Yes, of course. The 1973 War started on Yom Kippur."
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I meant this past Yom Kippur of 2012.
"For the same reason that soldiers sleep at night. To have an effective fighting force, you have to use people and not robots and they need time off, so you rotate things around while keeping as effective force as possible at all times. The IDF is a 24x7 operation."
You are assuming that the IDF keeps up its level pf preparedness on a constant basis--even through Shabbat and Holidays.
My impression is that the IDF routinely releases many many religious soldiers form active duty on Shabbos and Yom Tov at the expense of maintaining heightened preparedness, simply because the country is NOT currently on a war footing and we are not currently engaged in a Milchemes Mitzvah. That is the point I'm making.
Check out the facts and get back to me.
Reply
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EDIT- Internal italics unfortunately omitted. Beyond my technical expertise. Comments are preserved at the link.
Shaul probably doesn’t understand it but his comment is pure gaslighting. It doesn’t even begin to make sense.
"who unleashed a brutal murderous attack on a bunch of non-charedi communities"
Disgusting attitude, that charedim should not care or contribute as long as the people dying are not charedi
Disgusting misrepresentation of what I said.
No. What you said was disgusting and divisive.
Nope.
You probably should make it clear that the IDF are fighting and dying to protect Charedim along with everyone else before you go on with whatever point you are trying to make.
Special for you, I'll do it twice.
The IDF are fighting and dying to protect Charedim along with everyone else. The IDF are fighting and dying to protect Charedim along with everyone else....
.....Now insert my original comments.
"The IDF isn't fighting in Gaza to 'protect charedim.'"
"The IDF are fighting and dying to protect Charedim along with everyone else."
???
Read my whole comment. It wasn't terribly complicated.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-retraction-and-apology-and-a-non/comment/42860032
You are completely wrong. The IDF is fighting to protect *all* Israelis including Charedim. The Charedim (as a rule, not all) are free-riders. As are all of us who sit in the US who also benefit, albeit more indirectly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-rider_problem
Right. I'm a free rider on the US Army, the NYPD, the Navy Seals, the Shin Bet, the Mossad, Shomrim, and probably US border patrol every once in a while when they're in the mood. I like to wrack up the free rider frequent flyer miles.
As to the substance (such that is) of your comment, given that you seem to have confabulated the basis for the alleged need for more soldiers, there really isn't any reason to respond to it.
But since I'm a divisive, hate-filled, charedi-sympathizer, I'll just note that there's no free rider issue problem in this case. Even granting (SOLELY for the sake of argument!) that charedim are all a bunch of leeches who contribute nothing to anyone, you would have to assume that the chayalim in Gaza are there because of some economic benefit, rather than, say, a sense of responsibility, for it to be relevant.
It would be quite an odd time to be making that sort of argument.
That's not the free-rider problem and you have the thing entirely backwards. The US Army and the others you mention are volunteer forces. You pay for them in tax dollars and they voluntarily take your money to do their jobs. They also probably do it out of principle, and in that sense we get a bargain out of them since they do it despite losing something the bargain, but they are volunteers.
Israel relies on a draft. There is simply an agreement that everyone will sacrifice years of life and safety for the good of the entire country. To the degree that Charedim don't participate, they are free riding because they get the benefit of the protection without giving up years of life or safety in the bargain. Because they are doing it to save the country and not in their own interest and not for any sufficient monetary compensation is precisely why it is a free ride. You get something but you don't contribute. In the US, its is less of a free ride, but we get still benefit from Israel being there open to us at any time we'd like to come and we pay nothing compared to the people who serve.
"That's not the free-rider problem and you have the thing entirely backwards. The US Army and the others you mention are volunteer forces. You pay for them in tax dollars and they voluntarily take your money to do their jobs. "
Completely irrelevant. Which part of the free rider problem involves the voluntary versus compelled nature of the good provided?
"Israel relies on a draft. There is simply an agreement that everyone will sacrifice years of life and safety for the good of the entire country. "
This is nutty on so many different levels. Who made this 'agreement' exactly??? And for all your rambling, you haven't explained why having charedim in the country creates a free rider *problem.* If they all went to Uganda en masse, the IDF would somehow be less in need of their services???
"In the US, its is less of a free ride, but we get still benefit from Israel being there open to us at any time we'd like to come and we pay nothing compared to the people who serve."
I see. Sounds super rational and logical. I guess I free ride on India too. They take in all the backpacking Israelis so I can come take those Israelis' place in Israel.
"Completely irrelevant. Which part of the free rider problem involves the voluntary versus compelled nature of the good provided?"
Because they if it is voluntary, they are compensated. You don't "free ride" off of farmers or doctors even though they provide you with food and health care and you avoid backbreaking labor in the field or studying medicine for 8 years. You pay for that. When it is compelled, then they are giving up something in return for nothing (or much less than what it would take to compensate them). They do that as part of an agreement that everyone else does the same so we are all better off. If you don't participate, then you are a free rider.
"This is nutty on so many different levels. Who made this 'agreement' exactly???"
Ummm, the people through their elected leaders and then of course the vast majority of the country who actually go along with sacrificing year of life and safety for it it? There are problems with majoritarian rule and minority rights, but there is no political party this is advocating for disbanding the IDF, so that is not an issue. Everyone wants the army to continue protecting them. They just don't want to give up their own years of life and safety for that. They want others to do that.
"And for all your rambling, you haven't explained why having charedim in the country creates a free rider *problem.* If they all went to Uganda en masse, the IDF would somehow be less in need of their services???"
Yes and if every group but the Charedim left en masse, then you would also need the IDF to continue to provide protection. I'm not sure what you think that you are proving with that?
"I see. Sounds super rational and logical. I guess I free ride on India too."
I think that comparison explains a lot about what Israel means to you.
"Ummm, the people through their elected leaders and then of course the vast majority of the country who actually go along with sacrificing year of life and safety for it it?"
When was this 'agreement' signed onto in the first place? And are the Arab parties signed on to it too? Inquiring minds would like to know.
"There are problems with majoritarian rule and minority rights, but there is no political party this is advocating for disbanding the IDF, so that is not an issue."
You're equating ending a mandatory draft with disbanding the IDF . The 2 are not the same. The US army didn't cease to exist when they stopped drafting people.
"Yes and if every group but the Charedim left en masse, then you would also need the IDF to continue to provide protection. I'm not sure what you think that you are proving with that?"
I'm proving that their presence obviously isn't creating a free rider problem. Any more than all the draft dodging potential Ugandan olim would be
"I think that comparison explains a lot about what Israel means to you."
Thanks for sharing your insights into my psyche. They're not particularly *good* insights, but I'll take what I can get.
Please explain why RNS has not joined the army yet?
I can't speak for him, but here are some facts: When he came to Israel he was a Charedi. By the time he switched over to being an RZ he was past the age when the IDF wants you. His daughter volunteered to join the IDF when she could have done national service.
David, thanks, but please don't respond to this line of personal attack unless he explains why it's relevant to the content of my arguments.
If limmud hatorah doesn't provide a ptur from a milchemes mitzva, I don't see why running a museum or blog should.
Ok, so let's say you're right and I'm a hypocrite. When there's 150,000 museum directors, this will be a problem. In the meanwhile, not so much.
I personally know a 50 year old englishman who just joined the army. I am sure if RNS was determined they would take him on as a cook or driver?
Or the chevra kadisha.
That's wonderful. The country doesn't want everyone to stop doing their day jobs to join the IDF now. But if you want to go over there, there are plenty of volunteer opportunities for you.
So you dont mind if RNS continues his valuable blog instead of army service, but fulll time learners should enlist?
"How would we defend ourselves in a multi-front war, against not just Hamas, but also Hezbollah and Iran and a third Intifada and an uprising among Israeli Arabs? " (You forgot to mention the possibility that Iran may ח"ו go nuclear soon.)
Do you know anyone in the world that has the answer to this burning question? Do really believe that increasing the size of the army by a third will make that much of a difference in such a dire situation?
Perhaps it is time to reflect on who put us in such a dire situation.
Perhaps it is time to reflect on the idea that אין לנו להשען אלא אלא על אבינו, אבינו שבשמים.
Uh, yes, I think a 50% difference in the size of the army would make a significant difference. And I don't see why having them in yeshiva instead would help.
"a significant difference" doesn't answer my question. There is no answer to the question I began my comment with other than the last sentence.
אין לנו על מי להשען אלא על אבינו שבשמים
Your last sentence here shows that there is no way to have a conversation with you.
Why dont you join then?
Proof that rationalists don't think rationally.
I doubt it would make a significant difference, they can't even equip the people they have now, let alone in a hypothetical "what-if" scenario. Where is your quantitative analysis of how much of a difference they would make in the "what-if" scenario? And it wouldn't be a 50% increase, maybe you mean in another generation.
They can. This was just full mobilization, and full mobilization is going to strain logistics to the maximum.
There would also be a significantly bigger economic engine to pay for all that.
A large increase in economic output by educating another sector of society for gainful employment would also help a lot even if the army were its optimal size. We are relying on aid from other countries to stay afloat and that both comes with strings and may not last forever. In addition, right now, the callups leave the economy with gaping holes. The more gainfully employed, the less devastating the effect of callups.
Do you agree that this is just a question of believing in the Torah or not?
For those who believe in the Torah these kind of hypothetical arguments have little value.
We only take people out of learning for a concrete and clear הצלת ישראלץ
There are plenty of very dedicated and believing Jews who serve so I don't know who "we" is. Defending the country is not a hypothetical and neither are the economic needs. So no, it think that your statement is demonstrably false.
I didn't say someone who serves is not religious. I said that someone who attacks all those who learn based on hypothetical scenarios, which is what you did, obviously does not understand the value of Torah and the fact that only immediate and extreme demands can necessitate closing yeshivos.
So those who learn full time and have cleared out of Yeshiva because they were called up to fight don't believe in the Torah? There is a war going on which is an immediate an extreme demand which is why those Yeshivas are emptied out from those called up. What hypothetical are you talking about? The emergency is happening *right now* and right now the country is in trouble and relies on the US for resupply and protection while it remains in an unsustainable economic position.
Do we need to keep going around in circles? I never criticized people going to the army. I responded to what you wrote "A large increase in economic output by educating another sector of society for gainful employment would also help a lot even if the army were its optimal size" etc.
Why do you keep changing the topic?
Evidently, it is not such an emergency that would necessitate calling up museum curators. Or maybe it is, but they are still not doing that for some reason.
agree with yehoshua here. you guys need to learn to come from our perspective, which like it or not is a valid Jewish perspective. we can argue that i think mine is the only valid and you think yours is the only valid but let's say that there are two sets both valid. if you wish to change our system, you must take into account what we believe. which is torah is really important. it is what we are here for.. it is how we get close to God. and as reb moshe says in his tshuva YD vol 4 siman 36, klal yorole needs gedolei yisroel and we are at a big lack even with the yeshiva system. every inividual chareidi who appreciates torah has an achrayos to keep it alive and thriving, paskening, teaching, living it. we need a system to cater to the idea of kulo torah even if there will be floaters as there are in every society.
if you argue on our grounds, appreciating our POV, we can probably brainstorm with the good minds here to try to implement.
if slifkin can't even admit that torah is important "And I don't see why having them in yeshiva instead would help." we are just talking past each other and the hate will continue, despite him thinking he is helping the cause. those who disagree will continue to and those who agree will continue to; he's preaching to the choir unless he changes his tune to acknowledge us where we are coming from
"you must take into account what we believe. which is torah is really important. it is what we are here for.. it is how we get close to God. and as reb moshe says in his tshuva YD vol 4 siman 36, klal yorole needs gedolei yisroel and we are at a big lack even with the yeshiva system."
Do you understand that there is a whole segment of Israeli society who believe all that and then go out to fight when there is a war AND that if they didn't do so, Israel would be in big trouble? In fact they serve in the IDF precicesly *because* they believe in the importance of Torah.
The people who actually believe that also believe the chareidim are helping, utterly unlike Slifkin's attitude (even if many/most disagree with the chareidi approach) https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2
I am still waiting to hear why RNS has not joined the IDF yet, can someone explain?
I’m still waiting for you to move on after this has been answered numerous times….
RNS has been strangely silent... I would like him to address it and explain to his readers why he chose not to enlist
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-retraction-and-apology-and-a-non/comment/42874331?r=1w6tvf&utm_medium=ios
Why does RNS magically receive an exemption if he affiliates with the dati leumi community?
You bleating the same thing again and again without regard for the complete lack of logic in your argument just reflects your obvious intellectual limitations.
Why do you think that R Slifkin is magically getting any exemption?
RNS is upset the whole charedi community does not enlist because even limmud torah is no ptur. This logic would require him to enlist even though he is part of a community that as a whole do serve. His allegiance to others who are the army does not magically provide him an exemption.
Nowhere in the sugyot is there an exemption over a certain age
"RNS is upset the whole charedi community does not enlist". I don't think that he ever said such a thing. You appear confused.
So, again, what makes you think that he is getting any exemption?
An exemption in the halachic sense. If he does not have an exemption (and he claims fealty to halacha), then he has no right to push for the enlistment of others
I am really sorry for beating you. No doubt I was provoked by something you did, but here is an honest apology.
A summary of the non-apology written above.
Once again Noson has gone into Jesus mode (and those who agree with him are, nebuch, his "apostles"). When you apologize for something you've done wrong, you may at the same time offer an excuse for your error, that you were foolish, or you were influenced by others, etc. But when you qualify your apology with reasoning why you were really right or partially right, then your apology is no apology at all. You are the same as all the pundits (fools and reshayim) that say, "What Hamas did on Oct. 7 was horrible... BUT, the occupation for 75 years, the Israeli have been brutally persecuting the Palestinians, yada yada yada." At least Hamas is honest by saying, "ya we did it and we will do it again."
Just like all the pro-Hamas protesters around the world are motivated by antisemitism, Noson is just motivated by pathological hatred of Chareidim for what was done to him 19 years ago. His rants have NOTHING to do with any theological or rational position, they are only a product of his hatred.
"We put our children’s lives on the line for them, and they do not do the same for us"
Bingo
anyone know whats open now I am craving good ice cream or something cold?
oh, nate, nate, nate. why are you up so late?
i was reading @zookeepers books. so good real talk shel, im starving though whats open. delivery would be ideal
nate is it a coincidence you share a name with the zoo-ologist himself?
no
expound
can i come over now for some microwave popcorn and a movie? (sorry we are texting in the comment section, whatsapp is down)
like im actually starving.
fellow chareidim, especially americans:
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-retraction-and-apology-and-a-non/comment/42903528
"R Adlerstein... made the point that Charedi life goes on more or less as usual, while the lives of other groups are very disrupted (where disrupted is a vast understatement)."
this is an important sentence. when this whole thing first broke out, i admit i was shaken up and very, very moved. my life was not the same. but times moves on and i find myself back to normal, which shouldn't be. i live in america so its a whole different story. but we should NOT be continuing the same old. it's achzarius even now to not remember those mothers/wives/children who's kids/husbands/fathers were sent to fight. 16 times whatever number of mothers and wives and children are never going to see there father husband or son again! many people just lost friends and cousins and brothers. we can't let time cool us off even if we are not serving personally for whatever reason.