Nice gotcha, but it's just cynicism. People who donate to yeshivos generally don't have such a cynical outlook, and earnestly believe that supporting Torah is important. I don't know, maybe you can convince some like-minded cynics on the edge who might have given a few dollars here and there to yeshivos, but I doubt a significant amount is coming from them,
Correct. Yeshivas and related institutions are - like museums - built and supported by the wealthy. And people who give 6-figure donations are usually committed to a cause, and don't suddenly switch their life's direction on a dime. All the "arguments" NS writes above have been heard for decades and decades. If they haven't swayed anyone thus far, its unlikely they will do so now.
>"don't suddenly switch their life's direction on a dime"
This isn't life's direction, this is where to give money to. And times of crises are inflection points. See Bill Ackman and other major Jewish donors to Harvard and Penn, who have made major changes to giving, due to very problematic reactions to the war
Correct, it does happen, like Bill Ackman, (whose concerns were more about "diversity" than the war.) And I agree times of crisis are inflection points, as you nicely phrased it. But the crisis has to represent something new. Charedim have been called "parasites" by their haters for decades and decades, ditto their position on the army. They haven't changed at all. The donors themselves personally would have to have changed for this to be an inflection point. But all we've seen here is just more of the same talk about charedim.
I mostly agree with your points. I'd just push back a bit on "They haven't changed at all. The donors themselves personally would have to have changed". It's not so much that the donors would have to have changed, but that the world changed. Anecdotally, a lot of people who can be termed Haredi-sympathizers (in the non-pejorative sense, simply meaning, people who are not really Haredi, but support them to some extent), have been disappointed at how Haredim haven't changed at all even in the face of the world changing, meaning the current war
Well, we can't know if such sympathizers as you describe have in fact been disappointed in great numbers, insignificant numbers, or if the proposition is simply not true. To the extent they exist, I would tell them to focus on the same strengths of Charedim that attracted their support in the first place: that they play the long game, and do not simply change with every political event, including crises. Moreover, I would point out, there *has* been some evolution on their part - three thousand voluntary recruits, the number I have seen, is not something to sneeze at. Nor are the hundreds of thousands of man-hours spent on volunteering and social assistance and family attention, and the millions of dollars in aid.
True, but this is more comparable to somebody trying to convince Bill Ackman to stop giving money to Harvard because education actually doesn't actually improve the world. Like- "Tell 'em Bill, when they come collecting, that instead of a donation, you'll sign up for a college course on their behalf, har har har, chortle chortle chortle. That'l show 'em, darn right!" And seriously thinking that Bill would be convinced by this.
That's why it's an analogy, but not a bad analogy. A worse analogy is yours, comparing chareidi yeshivos promoting Torah study to Harvard publicly being ok with calls for genocide- but that's not the point. The point is that mockery and cynicism will not convince people who are already very committed to a cause. G-d knows that wealthy donors are already very aware of mockery and cynicism of Torah study and metaphysical stuff, yet they still give. זדים הליצוני עד מאד מתורתך לא נטיתי. And that's all the last paragraph of this post is.
>"A worse analogy is yours, comparing chareidi yeshivos promoting Torah study to Harvard publicly being ok with calls for genocide"
You're taking it too far. I was simply pushing back on the assumption that donors never shift gears, and illustrating that times of crisis cause donors to rethink who they give money to.
"mockery and cynicism" - you see it as that, but it wasn't intended that way. It's simply making the philosophical point that Haredim see study as having metaphysical value, and a donor can have metaphysical effect with their own prayer
Moshe, please do not compare NOW to "after" anything. We r in the midst of our own updated disaster. As long as innocent Yidn r imprisoned and abused in underground camps, almost every yeshiva bochur, especially the hangers-on, should be carrying certified-kosher bottled water to front-line troops.
The point that I got from the first half of the article is that once apon a time a hora’as sha’ah to learn was needed but now things are different. So I would like clarity if Natan does indeed ascribe to that position. From the fact that Natan didn't answer makes me assume that he would not have advocated for learning after the Holocaust. Which makes the article a bit misleading. All assumptions of course. Could be wrong.
Moshe--Do not be an impatient AK! Give Natan, a busy man, time to respond. But as I said, why r u comparing a CURRENT on-going disaster to the post-holocaust after-the-fact period? Maybe Natan believes in a temporary pause of learning DURING a crisis with a resumption AFTER the period.
Yeshiva deferments were widely supported in those days even by some secualr zionsits, due to the need to rebuild what was lost. however, you are probalby aware ofthe fact that in places like yeshvos chevron, there were lots of bochrim who served in the haganah.
Your declaration is absolutely on- target and appropriate. Large swaths of us with family members in the army, myself included, have this dichotomy at the forefront, and we will be voting with our dollars and shekels going forward.
And I think it's absolutely justified to point out that if you claim that Torah learning protects, then certainly this maxim extends to financial protection as well and you need no further help. I will say a prayer for you just as you (supposedly) say a prayer for me.
Dan, cause Haredim r insecure that their positions r not supported by fact, studies, science, or anything else. If u dare pull the curtain, they r lost. That is why they view every word questioning them as a slippery slope.
A big part of distinguishing between criticism and mockery is the respect that comes along with it. Rabbi doctor does not respect Chareidim at all. His desire for us to change is without acknowledging our values to begin with. That is mockery, not criticism, my friend.
Did you read the last paragraph? It has absolutely nothing to do with not accepting criticism. But there are also ways to criticize. Its really just about being a bit of a mensch.
Young Jews r losing life and limb trying to save other Jews from freezing underground prisons where unspeakable things r going on, R"L. Anybody who claims learners r accomplishing just as much is a shameless liar.
Using politics to get one's way is shameless. In the US, political parties use medically-necessary abortion and contraception to advance their partisan agenda, while in Israel they use learning and draft exemptions to get into office. The secular do not have to give in and play dead in the name of promoting achdut.
Zundel, I am not naive, and I understand playing politics. Dirty politics, however, is something else, where u sacrifice people's lives and well-being to achieve your own ends. When educated politicians sacrifice a woman's life by denying a legitimate termination to get votes, a line has been crossed.
Did I write anything against abortion? I personally think the government should not legislate morality at all, and leave abortion legal. Let people make their own religious decisions.
But that has nothing to do with achdus. The demand to exempt the Lomdei Torah from the draft isn't because of achdus. The demand to stop delegitimizing everything to do with Charedim, because of a difference of opinion, is because of achdus.
The demand to stop delegitimizing everything to do with Charedim, because of a difference of opinion, is because of achdus. In times of Milchama/Pikuach Nefesh, it's not pashut to say "difference of opinion" .... Efshar there is simply right and wrong ....
Look If you are going to assume the chareidim aren't genuine in their belief,then there is really nothing to talk about.
I'm not asking them to play dead ,but there is a way to do things ,but calling them shameful liars is certainly not going to get you anywhere.It will just make things worse.
A termination of an ectopic pregnancy is a medically-indicated life-threatening emergency, and several US cases have been blocked.
Tip: when u perhaps wrongfully disagree with something u never heard of, unnecessarily dismissing it with a laugh makes u look that much more ignorant when u r disproved. Play it safe, and do not mock.
I know the details full well. Pretty much every case the pro-abortion crowd has been waving around as a fig leaf for their real beliefs- which is unlimited legal abortion for any reason right up to (and beyond) delivery- is a gross distortion of the facts.
And you have the chutzpah to bring it up- completely out of context, tellingly- as the *anti*-abortion side using it for political purposes. Remove the beam from between thy eyes.
You may question the requisite of the last paragraph, but to characterise Rav Slifkin’s comment as hatred is idiotic. It’s surely sarcastic, but hateful? It appears that you cannot differentiate the dissimilarity between dislike and hatred. I don’t hate Chareidim, but I do dislike their refusal to physically join in support of their country by refusing to share life-threatening burdens of defending the land against murderous terrorists. All under the pretext of Torah supremacy and precedence above all else. You’re not lauding Torah integrity. In reality you’re extolling interpretative unfalsifiability to promote cowardice.
Is your reading comprehension so limited that you neglect the focus of Rav Slifkin’s dislike of Chareidi society? “… It also means that when supporting people or funding Torah institutions, priority must be given to those people and institutions that integrate Torah study with army service, and education towards professional careers that will strengthen the economy, rather than those which reject army service and secular education…”
It’s evident that he inspires you to casually ignore his criticism of their twisted Torah inspired phobia against taking up arms to defend their country. Yeshivas and kollelim should not be supported by RZ, Chilonim and Druzim who risk their lives to defend chareidi gutlessness.
I really can't understand why you are relentlessly attacking me, I actually thought, atleast according to his position, the rest of the article was actually fair.What gives you the right to assume otherwise?
I am fully entitled to respond to any point of the article I would like, I was not ignoring nor invalidating anything written up to that point.You however seem to have focused on the word hatred and ignored everything else I wrote.
Again I was just pointing out he ended it off with an unnecessary "low blow", pretty low class to be honest.Certainly we would except better from people preeching Torah values.
I think that when we have levaya after levaya. And the only response is “only support kolleilm” or “IDF are garbage men”. A strong response is necessary. It might have been sharp, but it was needed to be said!
Its absolutely insane that the responses I'm getting are not related to my comment at all , it seems anything in any form anti chareidi is completely justified.
Please point out exactly the point in my comment that you referring to so I can adequately respond.
"A strong response is necessary" -there have been plenty of responses. Just go read the last 20 posts or so.This has nothing to do with what Im saying here.
“IDF are garbage men” -I cant understand why people wont believe that this is an extreme approach , please dont bring it up as a generalization.
There is no fine point between dislike and hatred. It’s a wide breach. I hate Hamas, Hezbolah and the Iranian Ayatollahs and hope that brain cancer befalls every last one of them, but I can’t say the same of chareidim. But I do hold the same sentiments about Neturri Karta.
And BTW, there’s no fine line between cyanide and spinach.I certainly hate the former but dislike the latter.
Agreed, I was with you until the last paragraph. We definitely need a positive statement on this, but the swipe at the end only serves to increase cynicism
I hear and trust that that is how you meant it, that's not how it landed for me, nor apparently the first commenter. I would recommend to maybe check with a few other people how it lands for then and consider softening the language
K but do you also agree that torah has a special place in chazal's heart - over דרך ארץ? The way I understand it is that torah without derech eretz is an issue and reflects poorly on the learner of torah, but derech eretz without torah is not a jewish thing at all. So while other things are important to ASSIST torah, torah is the main thing. Is that wrong?
But it's hard to distinguish your "encouragement" from general mockery and cynicism of religion. What comes to mind is the story of Soviet teacher telling the kids to pray to God for candy, and no candy magically appears, and then to ask Stalin for candy, and the teacher hands out candy. The point is that mockery of spiritual power is a feature of general mockery of religion. Those who would swayed by normal mockery of religion have probably left a long time ago, because of how prevalent it is all over the internet and media. And those who remain, especially supporters of Torah, probably won't be swayed by yours.
There is no "mockery of religion" on this site. Asserting that notion is simply fear-mongering Rather it is just milchamta shel torah/legitimate critiques/different perspectives than others may have.
I respectfully disagree. I think this post is a classic example of mockery of religion. It mocks the belief that Torah study and spiritual pursuits protect the nation. I believe that this is Torah belief, not a chareidi belief, but even if not, it is a mockery of a community's religious beliefs. Even worse mockery is that it implies the community that professes this belief doesn't really believe it. And I see many other similar posts on this site.
Hmm.... I guess one person's mockery is another person's honest critique .... Take note in the Gemara where Amoraim can be quite harsh with each other ... are those comments considered mockery?
You have it backwards. A genuine hashkafa is positive, belief IN something. It's not merely negative, the non-belief in something. The current iteration of this blog isnt about zionism or eretz yisrael, and dont even try to pretend otherwise. Its purely and only negative, against the community you failed to join. That's not a genuine hashkafa, man.
No winds can help a ship that doesn't know where it's sailing. Israel is that ship. What bothers Slifkin is that his kids and grandkids will be fighting in Gaza, Lebanon and West Bank forever. It's a dire predicament for a soft Anglo eccentric, who doesn't share the messianic DL vision. One can sympathize with the poor chap.
> "No winds can help a ship that doesn't know where it's sailing. Israel is that ship."
Internal Israeli politics are essentially irrelevant to the current war. Realists have recognized the situation for a century. Compare this quote (my translation):
"Dayan's words expressed a realistic worldview, rooted in Arthur Ruppin's approach in 1936, who said, "The Arabs do not agree with our enterprise. If we wish to continue our enterprise against their will, blood sacrifices are inevitable. We are destined to be in constant warfare with the Arabs. It may be an undesirable situation, but it is the reality."
From the Hebrew Wikipedia entry "ההספד לרועי רוטברג "
Let's get down to basics - not all Charedi students are fit for lifelong learning, the society is not self sustaining and it does not wish to contribute to the welfare of the Israeli state in a tangible way. Why should it be subsidized during a war that threatens Israel's security and existence?
These are miluimnikim who were away from families / home / jobs for 3 1/2 months, and were sent home being told "rest up, we'll see you back here soon".
In other words, they were not sent home because they were not needed, they were sent home because they may be needed even more if/when things heat up in the north
As Y. Leibowitz put it: "In a normal nation the nation creates a state, in Israel the state tries to create a nation". The army is one of the instruments for this purpose. This is the core of the problem.
using the term shmad in this context reveals your real position. You think Zionism is like christianity and the IDF is like the Czar's army. You have also admitted that this is not about talmud torah, but about not want your kdis to go the army even if they are not learning. The talmud Torah thing is to a significant degree a front. You jsut want to live in EY while pissing onthe hand that God has provided to feed you and keep you from being slaughter by Hamas.
First, you didn't get the joke. Leibowitz was a heretical crank; his psuedo-aphorisms are similar to those of Yogi Bera, but without the laughs. The stupid quote you provide is a prime example. A priori it doesn't make sense.
Also it's rude to include a link without summarizing what's in it.
I understand nobody wants to die, but politics has nothing to do with nothing right now! Jews of all (and no) religious and political persuasions r dying while trying to rescue other Jews of the same or other persuasions, some of whom r being sexually tortured. At the same time, some other Jews r debating what to do about an egg that was hatched on a Festival.
"we outlived Graetz". In general, the popular meme in the right-wing Jewish world of "we've outlived Greece/Rome/maskilim" is mostly nonsensical. To focus on maskilim, they were extremely successful. The vast majority of Jews are not ultra-Orthodox, and essentially are closer to haskalah than to ultra-orthodoxy. So yes, ultra-Orthodoxy survived, but so did haskalah, and if anything, it's been more successful for the last 150 years.
(All this includes major overgeneralizations, but the overgeneralizations make sense in the context of the meme)
Nice link, to the opinion of someone who plays no role in formulating government or IDF policy.
Sort of like what's going on at the Hague, trying to prove Israel is engaged in genocide by quoting statements from politicians who have no voice in IDF or government policy -- there's a War Cabinet for that.
No, idoctrination has always been part of the army service. Yair Golan wants more of it and is singling out the DL that don't fit the mold. If haredim were in the army, they would be subjected to brainwashing just like everyone else.
Nice gotcha, but it's just cynicism. People who donate to yeshivos generally don't have such a cynical outlook, and earnestly believe that supporting Torah is important. I don't know, maybe you can convince some like-minded cynics on the edge who might have given a few dollars here and there to yeshivos, but I doubt a significant amount is coming from them,
Correct. Yeshivas and related institutions are - like museums - built and supported by the wealthy. And people who give 6-figure donations are usually committed to a cause, and don't suddenly switch their life's direction on a dime. All the "arguments" NS writes above have been heard for decades and decades. If they haven't swayed anyone thus far, its unlikely they will do so now.
>"don't suddenly switch their life's direction on a dime"
This isn't life's direction, this is where to give money to. And times of crises are inflection points. See Bill Ackman and other major Jewish donors to Harvard and Penn, who have made major changes to giving, due to very problematic reactions to the war
Correct, it does happen, like Bill Ackman, (whose concerns were more about "diversity" than the war.) And I agree times of crisis are inflection points, as you nicely phrased it. But the crisis has to represent something new. Charedim have been called "parasites" by their haters for decades and decades, ditto their position on the army. They haven't changed at all. The donors themselves personally would have to have changed for this to be an inflection point. But all we've seen here is just more of the same talk about charedim.
I mostly agree with your points. I'd just push back a bit on "They haven't changed at all. The donors themselves personally would have to have changed". It's not so much that the donors would have to have changed, but that the world changed. Anecdotally, a lot of people who can be termed Haredi-sympathizers (in the non-pejorative sense, simply meaning, people who are not really Haredi, but support them to some extent), have been disappointed at how Haredim haven't changed at all even in the face of the world changing, meaning the current war
Well, we can't know if such sympathizers as you describe have in fact been disappointed in great numbers, insignificant numbers, or if the proposition is simply not true. To the extent they exist, I would tell them to focus on the same strengths of Charedim that attracted their support in the first place: that they play the long game, and do not simply change with every political event, including crises. Moreover, I would point out, there *has* been some evolution on their part - three thousand voluntary recruits, the number I have seen, is not something to sneeze at. Nor are the hundreds of thousands of man-hours spent on volunteering and social assistance and family attention, and the millions of dollars in aid.
Positive changes need to be noted, mentioned, reinforced, and followed up on, especially regarding a society that is basically conservative.
True, but this is more comparable to somebody trying to convince Bill Ackman to stop giving money to Harvard because education actually doesn't actually improve the world. Like- "Tell 'em Bill, when they come collecting, that instead of a donation, you'll sign up for a college course on their behalf, har har har, chortle chortle chortle. That'l show 'em, darn right!" And seriously thinking that Bill would be convinced by this.
Not a good analogy. Harvard doesn't claim, like the Haredim do, that study metaphysically causes good things for the world
This is not only a chareidi claim.
That's why it's an analogy, but not a bad analogy. A worse analogy is yours, comparing chareidi yeshivos promoting Torah study to Harvard publicly being ok with calls for genocide- but that's not the point. The point is that mockery and cynicism will not convince people who are already very committed to a cause. G-d knows that wealthy donors are already very aware of mockery and cynicism of Torah study and metaphysical stuff, yet they still give. זדים הליצוני עד מאד מתורתך לא נטיתי. And that's all the last paragraph of this post is.
>"A worse analogy is yours, comparing chareidi yeshivos promoting Torah study to Harvard publicly being ok with calls for genocide"
You're taking it too far. I was simply pushing back on the assumption that donors never shift gears, and illustrating that times of crisis cause donors to rethink who they give money to.
"mockery and cynicism" - you see it as that, but it wasn't intended that way. It's simply making the philosophical point that Haredim see study as having metaphysical value, and a donor can have metaphysical effect with their own prayer
Natan - had you been around right after the holocaust, would you have advocated for torah learning?
Moshe, please do not compare NOW to "after" anything. We r in the midst of our own updated disaster. As long as innocent Yidn r imprisoned and abused in underground camps, almost every yeshiva bochur, especially the hangers-on, should be carrying certified-kosher bottled water to front-line troops.
The point that I got from the first half of the article is that once apon a time a hora’as sha’ah to learn was needed but now things are different. So I would like clarity if Natan does indeed ascribe to that position. From the fact that Natan didn't answer makes me assume that he would not have advocated for learning after the Holocaust. Which makes the article a bit misleading. All assumptions of course. Could be wrong.
Moshe--Do not be an impatient AK! Give Natan, a busy man, time to respond. But as I said, why r u comparing a CURRENT on-going disaster to the post-holocaust after-the-fact period? Maybe Natan believes in a temporary pause of learning DURING a crisis with a resumption AFTER the period.
I didn't compare anything. That's your assumption. All I did was ask Natan what his position is.
Yeshiva deferments were widely supported in those days even by some secualr zionsits, due to the need to rebuild what was lost. however, you are probalby aware ofthe fact that in places like yeshvos chevron, there were lots of bochrim who served in the haganah.
Your declaration is absolutely on- target and appropriate. Large swaths of us with family members in the army, myself included, have this dichotomy at the forefront, and we will be voting with our dollars and shekels going forward.
And I think it's absolutely justified to point out that if you claim that Torah learning protects, then certainly this maxim extends to financial protection as well and you need no further help. I will say a prayer for you just as you (supposedly) say a prayer for me.
If you mean it sincerely, I think chareidim would be very happy to have your sincere prayers!
No it's not, because those that believe in prayer are sincere about it. You and R Slifkin are not.
I can't understand why this mockery is being accepted.Enough anti chareidi arguments have been made, mockery is completely unnecessary.
Why is criticism always characterized by haredim as mockery?
Dan, cause Haredim r insecure that their positions r not supported by fact, studies, science, or anything else. If u dare pull the curtain, they r lost. That is why they view every word questioning them as a slippery slope.
A big part of distinguishing between criticism and mockery is the respect that comes along with it. Rabbi doctor does not respect Chareidim at all. His desire for us to change is without acknowledging our values to begin with. That is mockery, not criticism, my friend.
Always?
Did you read the last paragraph? It has absolutely nothing to do with not accepting criticism. But there are also ways to criticize. Its really just about being a bit of a mensch.
Young Jews r losing life and limb trying to save other Jews from freezing underground prisons where unspeakable things r going on, R"L. Anybody who claims learners r accomplishing just as much is a shameless liar.
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-783287?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Hamas+kills+21+IDF+soldiers+in+building+collapse&utm_campaign=January+23%2C+2024
Anyone here to creating deeper divisions in klal Yisrael, while not actually solving any issues is as shameless.
Using politics to get one's way is shameless. In the US, political parties use medically-necessary abortion and contraception to advance their partisan agenda, while in Israel they use learning and draft exemptions to get into office. The secular do not have to give in and play dead in the name of promoting achdut.
Huh?!
Politics is the way things are done. Not using politics means not getting anything done.
If you want a democracy, politics comes along with it.
Zundel, I am not naive, and I understand playing politics. Dirty politics, however, is something else, where u sacrifice people's lives and well-being to achieve your own ends. When educated politicians sacrifice a woman's life by denying a legitimate termination to get votes, a line has been crossed.
Did I write anything against abortion? I personally think the government should not legislate morality at all, and leave abortion legal. Let people make their own religious decisions.
But that has nothing to do with achdus. The demand to exempt the Lomdei Torah from the draft isn't because of achdus. The demand to stop delegitimizing everything to do with Charedim, because of a difference of opinion, is because of achdus.
The demand to stop delegitimizing everything to do with Charedim, because of a difference of opinion, is because of achdus. In times of Milchama/Pikuach Nefesh, it's not pashut to say "difference of opinion" .... Efshar there is simply right and wrong ....
Look If you are going to assume the chareidim aren't genuine in their belief,then there is really nothing to talk about.
I'm not asking them to play dead ,but there is a way to do things ,but calling them shameful liars is certainly not going to get you anywhere.It will just make things worse.
And what do Haredim call us? Worse than goyim, because at least u know a goy is out to cheat u.
Oh so they started it? Really? That's your argument, come on.
Either way that's an extreme example and a ridiculous generalisation.
That is absolutely not what the mainstream Chareidi view is.
And who is us?
This is literally like fighting propaganda.
נאה דורש נאה מקיים.
The anti-abortion forces in the US have succeeded in effectively outlawing medically necessary abortions in about a third of the United States.
Nonsense.
"Medically necessary," ha ha.
A termination of an ectopic pregnancy is a medically-indicated life-threatening emergency, and several US cases have been blocked.
Tip: when u perhaps wrongfully disagree with something u never heard of, unnecessarily dismissing it with a laugh makes u look that much more ignorant when u r disproved. Play it safe, and do not mock.
I know the details full well. Pretty much every case the pro-abortion crowd has been waving around as a fig leaf for their real beliefs- which is unlimited legal abortion for any reason right up to (and beyond) delivery- is a gross distortion of the facts.
And you have the chutzpah to bring it up- completely out of context, tellingly- as the *anti*-abortion side using it for political purposes. Remove the beam from between thy eyes.
The last paragraph is so unnecessary.
And you wonder why people accuse you of hatred. Why cant you just share your opinion whithout bashing others?
This is just one big backhanded insult.Seriously, I would expect you at least have the Derech Eretz you believe others lack.
@Shim,
You may question the requisite of the last paragraph, but to characterise Rav Slifkin’s comment as hatred is idiotic. It’s surely sarcastic, but hateful? It appears that you cannot differentiate the dissimilarity between dislike and hatred. I don’t hate Chareidim, but I do dislike their refusal to physically join in support of their country by refusing to share life-threatening burdens of defending the land against murderous terrorists. All under the pretext of Torah supremacy and precedence above all else. You’re not lauding Torah integrity. In reality you’re extolling interpretative unfalsifiability to promote cowardice.
Wow that was harsh.I didn't even mention anything about chareidim not going to the army.
I never classified it as hatred,as I said it's a backhanded insult ,or mockery, completely unnecessary.
And based on that I understand why people would believe he hates them.
Irrelevant of views on the chareidim,that type of insult is completely unnecessary.
@Shim,
Is your reading comprehension so limited that you neglect the focus of Rav Slifkin’s dislike of Chareidi society? “… It also means that when supporting people or funding Torah institutions, priority must be given to those people and institutions that integrate Torah study with army service, and education towards professional careers that will strengthen the economy, rather than those which reject army service and secular education…”
It’s evident that he inspires you to casually ignore his criticism of their twisted Torah inspired phobia against taking up arms to defend their country. Yeshivas and kollelim should not be supported by RZ, Chilonim and Druzim who risk their lives to defend chareidi gutlessness.
Harsh, perhaps but certainly not hatred.
I really can't understand why you are relentlessly attacking me, I actually thought, atleast according to his position, the rest of the article was actually fair.What gives you the right to assume otherwise?
I am fully entitled to respond to any point of the article I would like, I was not ignoring nor invalidating anything written up to that point.You however seem to have focused on the word hatred and ignored everything else I wrote.
Again I was just pointing out he ended it off with an unnecessary "low blow", pretty low class to be honest.Certainly we would except better from people preeching Torah values.
I think that when we have levaya after levaya. And the only response is “only support kolleilm” or “IDF are garbage men”. A strong response is necessary. It might have been sharp, but it was needed to be said!
Its absolutely insane that the responses I'm getting are not related to my comment at all , it seems anything in any form anti chareidi is completely justified.
Please point out exactly the point in my comment that you referring to so I can adequately respond.
"A strong response is necessary" -there have been plenty of responses. Just go read the last 20 posts or so.This has nothing to do with what Im saying here.
“IDF are garbage men” -I cant understand why people wont believe that this is an extreme approach , please dont bring it up as a generalization.
So much for the theory that shakla ve-tarya trains people in the ability to debate effectively.
I will happily engage ,if there is a point you feel that I have either missed avoided or misrepresented.
If there is a specific issue with my debating style I would appreciate if you were to at least point it out.
I see no value in just leaving some condescending statement.
True, fair point, there is a fine line between dislike and hatred. But where do you draw the line?
@ Jerry,
There is no fine point between dislike and hatred. It’s a wide breach. I hate Hamas, Hezbolah and the Iranian Ayatollahs and hope that brain cancer befalls every last one of them, but I can’t say the same of chareidim. But I do hold the same sentiments about Neturri Karta.
And BTW, there’s no fine line between cyanide and spinach.I certainly hate the former but dislike the latter.
I love your examples!
I hope neturei karta have a refua sheleima.
יתמו חטאים
Agreed, I was with you until the last paragraph. We definitely need a positive statement on this, but the swipe at the end only serves to increase cynicism
It's not a "swipe." It's encouraging people to think about whether their purported hashkafah is genuine.
I hear and trust that that is how you meant it, that's not how it landed for me, nor apparently the first commenter. I would recommend to maybe check with a few other people how it lands for then and consider softening the language
To me it seems that anyone who does NOT like the wording is in essence admiting that the torah does all hashkafa is incorrect.
This is just twisted,is it so hard to admit he said something he shouldn't have?
That's a straw man.
I think the wording is actually quite clear and serious, and there's no indication that's it's anything other than that
Ezra, do you think Torah is important?
Yes, along with דרך ארץ, in the broad sense. As in the phrase תורה עם דרך ארץ
K but do you also agree that torah has a special place in chazal's heart - over דרך ארץ? The way I understand it is that torah without derech eretz is an issue and reflects poorly on the learner of torah, but derech eretz without torah is not a jewish thing at all. So while other things are important to ASSIST torah, torah is the main thing. Is that wrong?
But it's hard to distinguish your "encouragement" from general mockery and cynicism of religion. What comes to mind is the story of Soviet teacher telling the kids to pray to God for candy, and no candy magically appears, and then to ask Stalin for candy, and the teacher hands out candy. The point is that mockery of spiritual power is a feature of general mockery of religion. Those who would swayed by normal mockery of religion have probably left a long time ago, because of how prevalent it is all over the internet and media. And those who remain, especially supporters of Torah, probably won't be swayed by yours.
There is no "mockery of religion" on this site. Asserting that notion is simply fear-mongering Rather it is just milchamta shel torah/legitimate critiques/different perspectives than others may have.
I respectfully disagree. I think this post is a classic example of mockery of religion. It mocks the belief that Torah study and spiritual pursuits protect the nation. I believe that this is Torah belief, not a chareidi belief, but even if not, it is a mockery of a community's religious beliefs. Even worse mockery is that it implies the community that professes this belief doesn't really believe it. And I see many other similar posts on this site.
Hmm.... I guess one person's mockery is another person's honest critique .... Take note in the Gemara where Amoraim can be quite harsh with each other ... are those comments considered mockery?
You have it backwards. A genuine hashkafa is positive, belief IN something. It's not merely negative, the non-belief in something. The current iteration of this blog isnt about zionism or eretz yisrael, and dont even try to pretend otherwise. Its purely and only negative, against the community you failed to join. That's not a genuine hashkafa, man.
You are certainly not going to convince anyone with that type of encouragement.
No winds can help a ship that doesn't know where it's sailing. Israel is that ship. What bothers Slifkin is that his kids and grandkids will be fighting in Gaza, Lebanon and West Bank forever. It's a dire predicament for a soft Anglo eccentric, who doesn't share the messianic DL vision. One can sympathize with the poor chap.
> "No winds can help a ship that doesn't know where it's sailing. Israel is that ship."
Internal Israeli politics are essentially irrelevant to the current war. Realists have recognized the situation for a century. Compare this quote (my translation):
"Dayan's words expressed a realistic worldview, rooted in Arthur Ruppin's approach in 1936, who said, "The Arabs do not agree with our enterprise. If we wish to continue our enterprise against their will, blood sacrifices are inevitable. We are destined to be in constant warfare with the Arabs. It may be an undesirable situation, but it is the reality."
From the Hebrew Wikipedia entry "ההספד לרועי רוטברג "
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%94%D7%94%D7%A1%D7%A4%D7%93_%D7%9C%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%A2%D7%99_%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%98%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%92
Dayan said in 1936, for the last 30 years Israel was paying for the ''New Middle East' vision. And things will only get worse.
Israel doesn't know how to deal with the Arab problem. It doesn't have a plan and doesn't know where it's sailing.
My point is that that's nothing new. It's been the known reality for the last hundred years
A large part of the Israeli political edtablishment and the public have rejected this reality with predictable results.
How would you deal with it in a way that will work?
It bothers us all, and the lives of fellow Jews should bother you as well.
Can you not fathom that we can believe in something fully and deeply, and yet its implementation is unbearably painful?
Let's get down to basics - not all Charedi students are fit for lifelong learning, the society is not self sustaining and it does not wish to contribute to the welfare of the Israeli state in a tangible way. Why should it be subsidized during a war that threatens Israel's security and existence?
The Charedim already get so much for free. Now they’re getting to live rent free in Slifkins head.
Are there no good therapists or psychiatrists in all of Israel that can treat your obsessive disorder??
Amazing article!
I wish changes would actually happen!
They really need chareidim now?? Why were 25k sent home recently?
These are miluimnikim who were away from families / home / jobs for 3 1/2 months, and were sent home being told "rest up, we'll see you back here soon".
In other words, they were not sent home because they were not needed, they were sent home because they may be needed even more if/when things heat up in the north
good one Natan!
I think you'll find the peasants revolting.
Slifkin hit a new bottom.
He's teaching at a Cheder now?
No, he sends his kids to the DL שמד factories.
https://www.now14.co.il/%D7%99%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A8-%D7%92%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%9F-%D7%A6%D7%94%D7%9C-%D7%A6%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9A-%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%A0%D7%9A-%D7%90%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%93%D7%AA/
As Y. Leibowitz put it: "In a normal nation the nation creates a state, in Israel the state tries to create a nation". The army is one of the instruments for this purpose. This is the core of the problem.
using the term shmad in this context reveals your real position. You think Zionism is like christianity and the IDF is like the Czar's army. You have also admitted that this is not about talmud torah, but about not want your kdis to go the army even if they are not learning. The talmud Torah thing is to a significant degree a front. You jsut want to live in EY while pissing onthe hand that God has provided to feed you and keep you from being slaughter by Hamas.
Not worthy of a reply.
First, you didn't get the joke. Leibowitz was a heretical crank; his psuedo-aphorisms are similar to those of Yogi Bera, but without the laughs. The stupid quote you provide is a prime example. A priori it doesn't make sense.
Also it's rude to include a link without summarizing what's in it.
Great summation of Leibowitz. As a political philosopher, let alone an historian, he was not worth much.
I understand nobody wants to die, but politics has nothing to do with nothing right now! Jews of all (and no) religious and political persuasions r dying while trying to rescue other Jews of the same or other persuasions, some of whom r being sexually tortured. At the same time, some other Jews r debating what to do about an egg that was hatched on a Festival.
Do not tell me it is raining!
And those people debating the laws of muktza and nolad are holding up the world!
Funny, but we outlived Graetz who first poked fun at the egg that was laid on Yomtov. We will outlive his successors too.
EVERYBODY outlives people who die before they do, proving nothing!
"we outlived Graetz". In general, the popular meme in the right-wing Jewish world of "we've outlived Greece/Rome/maskilim" is mostly nonsensical. To focus on maskilim, they were extremely successful. The vast majority of Jews are not ultra-Orthodox, and essentially are closer to haskalah than to ultra-orthodoxy. So yes, ultra-Orthodoxy survived, but so did haskalah, and if anything, it's been more successful for the last 150 years.
(All this includes major overgeneralizations, but the overgeneralizations make sense in the context of the meme)
I'm just explaining the charedi point and why it makes sense in their framework of reference.
Yakov, EVERYTHING makes perfect sense if u personally gain from your presented point of view. That is why we have judges to sort it all out.
Nice link, to the opinion of someone who plays no role in formulating government or IDF policy.
Sort of like what's going on at the Hague, trying to prove Israel is engaged in genocide by quoting statements from politicians who have no voice in IDF or government policy -- there's a War Cabinet for that.
No, idoctrination has always been part of the army service. Yair Golan wants more of it and is singling out the DL that don't fit the mold. If haredim were in the army, they would be subjected to brainwashing just like everyone else.
" idoctrination has always been part of the army service"
No. That's just a paranoid fantasy.
Did you serve in any army? This is all just conjecture on your part.
Thank you for helping me realize I wasted my time replying to you.
What a hateful comment.The anti chareidi rhetoric is shameful.
You don't even have a troll to hide behind.
Did you read the comment I was addressing?
Instead of getting insulted, and throwing the race card. Let’s examine our ways and see if change is necessary. Which it definitely is.
Im not throwing out any cards , he literally just said and insult . Nothing more.
Your comment equally applies to him. Im not sure how you would like someone to respoond to someone who calls a cheder rebbi new low.
Its a terrible comment irrelevant of your other views.
no problem. callout the insults, thena dress the issues behind them. other wise you just pulling a convient card to avoid repsonibility.
Ouch!
I love it.