I have many Chabad friends and none of them are Anti-Zionist. In fact many of them care deeply about our chayalim. They pray for them, they donate. In fact there are Chabadniks serving in the IDF and doing National Service. Unlike the Charedi who separate themselves from the rest of Am Yisrael, Chabad does the opposite, engaging with Jews from the most secular who know nothing about Judaism to those on the opposite side of spectrum. The beauty of Chabad is that they don’t judge and believe all Jews have a Jewish spark in them.
There are many Chabaniks serving, yes. (Many of the charedim serving are actually Chabad.) But it's a small percentage of Chabadniks overall, let's not forget that.
Until you walk into a Chabad house as a frum Jew. At that point, they may see you as a useless prospect (since there’s no kiruv work to do), and—though I’m sure it’s unintentional—they’ll often ignore you at best. Sometimes it can even feel like they see you as a leech. I know you may not agree with this, but this has been my experience in multiple locations. Don’t get me wrong—I appreciate their work, use their services, and make sure to support them—but this is a very real point that often goes unacknowledged.
None of my Chabad friends or acquaintances see me as a ‘useless prospect’ and I’m a Modern Orthodox Jew. I am sorry that, that’s your experience. I am very ignored from the Charedi sector though, which has been my experience. In fact to them I am invisible.😼
I would consider myself a "misnaged ben misngadim" and had little contact w/ Chabad growing up (as ignorant bochurim, we always derided them for ignoring z'manim and plying "fringe" folks w/ alcohol...) but, since growing up, I have "walked into" many a Chabad house as a frum Jew (on college campuses, traveling to far flung locations throughout the world, etc) and have never encountered anything other than kindness, hospitality, and genuine ahavas yisrael.
My mind is going to Chabadniks. I would personally classify them as "non-zionist in name only," because as far as I can tell, their hashgagak is practically aligned with the continued existence and support for the State of Israel, and to the extent they disagree, it is because the state of Israel is not expressing Judaism enough.
Practically speaking, from what I understand, although they wouldn't want to be in Frontline combat units, they would want to be there with the soldiers.
"because as far as I can tell, their hashgagak is practically aligned with the continued existence and support for the State of Israel, and to the extent they disagree, it is because the state of Israel is not expressing Judaism enough."
Chabad hashkafa is actually deeply anti-Zionist; the degree Israel "expresses Judaism" has nothing to do with it (as it has nothing to do with it for most charedim). Chabad basically accepted Israel as a reality under the last Rebbe and does a lot for it, but sometimes the original ideology comes bubbling out.
"although they wouldn't want to be in Frontline combat units"
Look at what you wrote there. What gives them the right to decide that? Every non-charedi Jew in Israel doesn't even have that option. Why should someone have the right to decide how he serves (or if he does at all) due to his form of headcovering?
I am usually very turned off by your harsh approach to charedim, despite my own frustration with so much in their community. However, I found this post to be a positive exception. I will say that the problem with your idea is how it plays out: You tell your charedi cousin that you can't come to the wedding unless they acknowledge the soldiers/war, etc. His response undoubtedly would be either to ask the mesader kidushin if this is acceptable or to anticipate the answer. Too often, the answer will be no, even if your cousin agrees with the idea. Is it helpful to put him and your relationship and your whole family's relationships (everyone in the family will surely have strong opinions about this and will often end up fighting with each other, including dati leumi among themselves and charedim among themselves, at risk of sinas chinam that can last for years? What if this idea is promoted and a husband and wife fight about whether to skip her cousin's or friend's wedding? Ultimately, this is a deeply terrible idea.
If you want to do something at weddings, print a brochure with pictures and stories of weddings of chayalim showing the emotion, Emunah and heroism that is solely positive but that is titled something like Mazel tov on your simcha. Please remember others whose simcha is not as pleasant. Then put this on the windshields of all the cars in the parking lot (or if most people didn't come in cars, hand them out or put them out as best you can without even slightly risking a scene that will at all mar the simcha). But NEVER EVER get in a fight with anyone, even if they go taking them off the windshields or whatever. Weddings MUST be 100% about the chosson and kallah first. The success of their marriage, in enough situations, really depends on it.
Imagine going to a wedding 10 years after the destruction of the second beis hamikdash. Different family members belonged to different factions before the destruction. Recently, they started a tradition of putting ashes on the forehead of the chosson. I'm sure everyone has their opinion on whose was to blame for the churban, maybe we shouldn't adopt that practice, there will be too many fights at the wedding.
Your analogy doesn't work. It takes place AFTER the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash. Here we are talking about an ongoing and worsening threat which charedim are refusing to help with.
I guess my point wasn't clear. I was responding to what the person above me claimed, that it wasn't a good idea to introduce a divisive practice at a wedding. I was wondering if the introduction of practices to remember the churban while the wound was still raw also may have been divisive, because of the sectarianism that preceded the churban
To be fair, I don't exactly know when this minhag was enacted; my analogy was for illustration purposes. But historically, the Jews troubles did not end with the churban, the sacking of beitar would be about 50 years after the churban
I'm not sure what your point is but your example doesn't work. As I said, the wedding is all about the chosson and kallah and is led by the mesader kidushin. If that's what they choose, it's nobody's business. They can stay home if they want and it's their own decision. Many people getting married have to juggle keeping family happy (e.g., what kind of mechitza at dancing?). You really think in a mixed dati leumi/charedi family the best time to push people's buttons is at someone's wedding you're supposed to love and care for and want to have a happy marriage? Why not find a way to make the point without boycotts and other inflammatory decisions?
I have a better idea. Tell your charedi hosts you will come but you don't eat their hechahers and will only eat Rabbanut. Of course, no charedi wedding hall will get them Rabbanut meals and they will find the whole idea crazy and try to.comvince you otherwise. Then you get the opportunity to ask them if it's crazier than the special meals they have always insisted upon at your functions and if it's crazier than those who think they are closest to Hashem refusing to fight for Am Yisrael
My husband has been saying this for years. Why are we always accommodating chareidim who want a higher hechsher, but they don't accommodate us if we say we don't want to eat a chareidi hechsher? And why does everyone else think we would be the crazy ones in this scenario?
Simple. Because in the frum world, stricter is seen as “safer,” so accommodating up is normal, but rejecting a chareidi hechsher is treated like rejecting kashrus itself.
Just for the record, all kosher food in Israel has a Rabbanut hekhsher. You're asking for food that *only* has a Rabbanut hekhsher, which complicates things considerably.
Totally awful and callous idea. Not attending a wedding of a close relative - think, brother, nephew, aunt - because of politics, is a horrible idea that will strain the relationship for years. You are responsible for all the relationships which are broken up because of this terrible advice. And it will not do anything to make Charedim change. It will only harden them more, and view DL as enemies, and make them more militantly opposed to serving. That's human nature.
You’re missing one very important point: for many charedim, there’s no independent analysis. They look to the gedolim, accept what they say, and that’s the end of the story. They will live and die by that guidance. As frustrating as it is, you have to accept this unfortunate reality. I remind myself of this whenever I feel anger toward charedim—they truly fit the definition of tinok shenishba.
Bottom line, the only real way to influence them is by affecting their bottom line—but as you know, that’s unlikely to happen, since Dati and secular politicians continue to enable the situation.
Practically speaking, I don’t donate large amounts to their causes; I’ll give a token $2 to be polite (no point in telling them off), and I focus on speaking to Dati and secular people about how damaging the situation is, hoping that change will come from that direction.
I think that there's absolutely a point to not giving any token donation and using the opportunity to share some thoughts that may never have occurred to them. For example, tell them that if they believe that learning/davening replaces material help, you will learn/davven for their cause rather than giving money to it.
Yes and no. People still continue to think, and can't help but think, despite any dependence on דעת תורה. And דעת תורה is a capricious thing. So a certain Charedi gadol recently cited Rav Yechezkel Abramsky to support his assertion that Charedim can take extreme measures to flee from the country. But did he cite RYA's very strong words against non-learners who don't serve? Does post-modern דעת תורה defer to Rav Shach's דעת תורה that non-learner must serve? Does RCK, three years after his passing, still rate? He wrote on "ולא שבט לוי בלבד" that the Rambam is talking about a person who doesn't take gov't money. (And Rav Meshulam Dovid implies the same thing.)
Cite דעת תורה in order to negate it. At the least it make awaken those תינוקות שנשבו who still have the ability to think just a little.
Il note that more recently than with צדוקים the Chasam Sofer advocated separating from maskilim who were undermining certain aspects of Torah. Also had a serious risk that it arguably pushed the Maskilim further away.
I would argue machlokes is a super powerful tool but only use if the positive results are likely to work, otherwise it's too dangerous and destructive to a already stressful family situation.
Il note that more recently than with צדוקים the Chasam Sofer advocated separating from maskilim who were undermining certain aspects of Torah. Also had a serious risk that it arguably pushed the Maskilim further away.
I would argue machlokes is a super powerful tool but only use if the positive results are likely to work, otherwise it's too dangerous and destructive to a already stressful family situation.
Il note that more recently than with צדוקים the Chasam Sofer advocated separating from maskilim who were undermining certain aspects of Torah. Also had a serious risk that it arguably pushed the Maskilim further away.
I would argue machlokes is a super powerful tool but only use if the positive results are likely to work, otherwise it's too dangerous and destructive to a already stressful family situation.
Il note that more recently than with צדוקים the Chasam Sofer advocated separating from maskilim who were undermining certain aspects of Torah. Also had a serious risk that it arguably pushed the Maskilim further away.
I would argue machlokes is a super powerful tool but only use if the positive results are likely to work, otherwise it's too dangerous and destructive to a already stressful family situation.
Il note that more recently than with צדוקים the Chasam Sofer advocated separating from maskilim who were undermining certain aspects of Torah. Also had a serious risk that it arguably pushed the Maskilim further away.
I would argue machlokes is a super powerful tool but only use if the positive results are likely to work, otherwise it's too dangerous and destructive to a already stressful family situation.
Il note that more recently than with צדוקים the Chasam Sofer advocated separating from maskilim who were undermining certain aspects of Torah. Also had a serious risk that it arguably pushed the Maskilim further away.
I would argue machlokes is a super powerful tool but only use if the positive results are likely to work, otherwise it's too dangerous and destructive to a already stressful family situation.
לא נמנעו בית שמאי לישה נשים מבית הלל its not that I don't agree, its more that i see it as super risky. In reference to Saducees of old that has a absolute effect of cutting them out albeit justifiably so. Now maybe in this situation it's also justified. Either way serious risk , is there a benefit yes potentially but still questionable vs the risk.
Your advocacy of a social break from Chareidim is wrong and misguided. The Charediim don't serve in the army because they fear they may become non-observant due their exposure to a secular lifestyle. I happen to share your opinion that every Jew must serve, especially given the accommodations available to the frum community within the army. Nonetheless, any social disconnection is morally abhorrent. The Chareidim are not Saducees. Your advocacy of disconnection is dangerous to the entire Jewish People.
Their disconnection may or may not be worse, but your weddings suggestion is creepy -The Bar Kamtza story was about weddings. I have no problem with jail, travel bans even losing the right to vote for draft evasion. But I cannot condone tearing our People apart.
I live in the States. Were I to live in Israel, I, as well as my kids would definitely serve (I hope). I did learn in what you would call Charedi (I hate that label) yeshivos, but have a broader worldview than Israeli Charedim. Many of my friends feel the same way as I do. I am absolutely opposed to any sort of protests or demonstrations regarding the draft and I actively try to convince others to refrain from any public opposition. I sincerely hope that the Agudah in the USA does not get hijacked by extremists who support protests. I happen to like you, but cannot condone what you wrote in this post.
We still have your Purim donation letter on our door. And we do not contribute to loved ones' kollel campaigns and explain why.
I have many Chabad friends and none of them are Anti-Zionist. In fact many of them care deeply about our chayalim. They pray for them, they donate. In fact there are Chabadniks serving in the IDF and doing National Service. Unlike the Charedi who separate themselves from the rest of Am Yisrael, Chabad does the opposite, engaging with Jews from the most secular who know nothing about Judaism to those on the opposite side of spectrum. The beauty of Chabad is that they don’t judge and believe all Jews have a Jewish spark in them.
There are many Chabaniks serving, yes. (Many of the charedim serving are actually Chabad.) But it's a small percentage of Chabadniks overall, let's not forget that.
Until you walk into a Chabad house as a frum Jew. At that point, they may see you as a useless prospect (since there’s no kiruv work to do), and—though I’m sure it’s unintentional—they’ll often ignore you at best. Sometimes it can even feel like they see you as a leech. I know you may not agree with this, but this has been my experience in multiple locations. Don’t get me wrong—I appreciate their work, use their services, and make sure to support them—but this is a very real point that often goes unacknowledged.
None of my Chabad friends or acquaintances see me as a ‘useless prospect’ and I’m a Modern Orthodox Jew. I am sorry that, that’s your experience. I am very ignored from the Charedi sector though, which has been my experience. In fact to them I am invisible.😼
I would consider myself a "misnaged ben misngadim" and had little contact w/ Chabad growing up (as ignorant bochurim, we always derided them for ignoring z'manim and plying "fringe" folks w/ alcohol...) but, since growing up, I have "walked into" many a Chabad house as a frum Jew (on college campuses, traveling to far flung locations throughout the world, etc) and have never encountered anything other than kindness, hospitality, and genuine ahavas yisrael.
My mind is going to Chabadniks. I would personally classify them as "non-zionist in name only," because as far as I can tell, their hashgagak is practically aligned with the continued existence and support for the State of Israel, and to the extent they disagree, it is because the state of Israel is not expressing Judaism enough.
Practically speaking, from what I understand, although they wouldn't want to be in Frontline combat units, they would want to be there with the soldiers.
"because as far as I can tell, their hashgagak is practically aligned with the continued existence and support for the State of Israel, and to the extent they disagree, it is because the state of Israel is not expressing Judaism enough."
Chabad hashkafa is actually deeply anti-Zionist; the degree Israel "expresses Judaism" has nothing to do with it (as it has nothing to do with it for most charedim). Chabad basically accepted Israel as a reality under the last Rebbe and does a lot for it, but sometimes the original ideology comes bubbling out.
"although they wouldn't want to be in Frontline combat units"
Look at what you wrote there. What gives them the right to decide that? Every non-charedi Jew in Israel doesn't even have that option. Why should someone have the right to decide how he serves (or if he does at all) due to his form of headcovering?
I am usually very turned off by your harsh approach to charedim, despite my own frustration with so much in their community. However, I found this post to be a positive exception. I will say that the problem with your idea is how it plays out: You tell your charedi cousin that you can't come to the wedding unless they acknowledge the soldiers/war, etc. His response undoubtedly would be either to ask the mesader kidushin if this is acceptable or to anticipate the answer. Too often, the answer will be no, even if your cousin agrees with the idea. Is it helpful to put him and your relationship and your whole family's relationships (everyone in the family will surely have strong opinions about this and will often end up fighting with each other, including dati leumi among themselves and charedim among themselves, at risk of sinas chinam that can last for years? What if this idea is promoted and a husband and wife fight about whether to skip her cousin's or friend's wedding? Ultimately, this is a deeply terrible idea.
If you want to do something at weddings, print a brochure with pictures and stories of weddings of chayalim showing the emotion, Emunah and heroism that is solely positive but that is titled something like Mazel tov on your simcha. Please remember others whose simcha is not as pleasant. Then put this on the windshields of all the cars in the parking lot (or if most people didn't come in cars, hand them out or put them out as best you can without even slightly risking a scene that will at all mar the simcha). But NEVER EVER get in a fight with anyone, even if they go taking them off the windshields or whatever. Weddings MUST be 100% about the chosson and kallah first. The success of their marriage, in enough situations, really depends on it.
Imagine going to a wedding 10 years after the destruction of the second beis hamikdash. Different family members belonged to different factions before the destruction. Recently, they started a tradition of putting ashes on the forehead of the chosson. I'm sure everyone has their opinion on whose was to blame for the churban, maybe we shouldn't adopt that practice, there will be too many fights at the wedding.
Your analogy doesn't work. It takes place AFTER the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash. Here we are talking about an ongoing and worsening threat which charedim are refusing to help with.
I guess my point wasn't clear. I was responding to what the person above me claimed, that it wasn't a good idea to introduce a divisive practice at a wedding. I was wondering if the introduction of practices to remember the churban while the wound was still raw also may have been divisive, because of the sectarianism that preceded the churban
To be fair, I don't exactly know when this minhag was enacted; my analogy was for illustration purposes. But historically, the Jews troubles did not end with the churban, the sacking of beitar would be about 50 years after the churban
I'm not sure what your point is but your example doesn't work. As I said, the wedding is all about the chosson and kallah and is led by the mesader kidushin. If that's what they choose, it's nobody's business. They can stay home if they want and it's their own decision. Many people getting married have to juggle keeping family happy (e.g., what kind of mechitza at dancing?). You really think in a mixed dati leumi/charedi family the best time to push people's buttons is at someone's wedding you're supposed to love and care for and want to have a happy marriage? Why not find a way to make the point without boycotts and other inflammatory decisions?
I think my comparison, while not perfect, is reasonably clear. Maybe sleep on it before regurgitating your point.
I have a better idea. Tell your charedi hosts you will come but you don't eat their hechahers and will only eat Rabbanut. Of course, no charedi wedding hall will get them Rabbanut meals and they will find the whole idea crazy and try to.comvince you otherwise. Then you get the opportunity to ask them if it's crazier than the special meals they have always insisted upon at your functions and if it's crazier than those who think they are closest to Hashem refusing to fight for Am Yisrael
My husband has been saying this for years. Why are we always accommodating chareidim who want a higher hechsher, but they don't accommodate us if we say we don't want to eat a chareidi hechsher? And why does everyone else think we would be the crazy ones in this scenario?
Simple. Because in the frum world, stricter is seen as “safer,” so accommodating up is normal, but rejecting a chareidi hechsher is treated like rejecting kashrus itself.
Just for the record, all kosher food in Israel has a Rabbanut hekhsher. You're asking for food that *only* has a Rabbanut hekhsher, which complicates things considerably.
Totally awful and callous idea. Not attending a wedding of a close relative - think, brother, nephew, aunt - because of politics, is a horrible idea that will strain the relationship for years. You are responsible for all the relationships which are broken up because of this terrible advice. And it will not do anything to make Charedim change. It will only harden them more, and view DL as enemies, and make them more militantly opposed to serving. That's human nature.
You’re missing one very important point: for many charedim, there’s no independent analysis. They look to the gedolim, accept what they say, and that’s the end of the story. They will live and die by that guidance. As frustrating as it is, you have to accept this unfortunate reality. I remind myself of this whenever I feel anger toward charedim—they truly fit the definition of tinok shenishba.
Bottom line, the only real way to influence them is by affecting their bottom line—but as you know, that’s unlikely to happen, since Dati and secular politicians continue to enable the situation.
Practically speaking, I don’t donate large amounts to their causes; I’ll give a token $2 to be polite (no point in telling them off), and I focus on speaking to Dati and secular people about how damaging the situation is, hoping that change will come from that direction.
I think that there's absolutely a point to not giving any token donation and using the opportunity to share some thoughts that may never have occurred to them. For example, tell them that if they believe that learning/davening replaces material help, you will learn/davven for their cause rather than giving money to it.
A small point, but you can be polite without giving anything at all.
" there’s no independent analysis."
Yes and no. People still continue to think, and can't help but think, despite any dependence on דעת תורה. And דעת תורה is a capricious thing. So a certain Charedi gadol recently cited Rav Yechezkel Abramsky to support his assertion that Charedim can take extreme measures to flee from the country. But did he cite RYA's very strong words against non-learners who don't serve? Does post-modern דעת תורה defer to Rav Shach's דעת תורה that non-learner must serve? Does RCK, three years after his passing, still rate? He wrote on "ולא שבט לוי בלבד" that the Rambam is talking about a person who doesn't take gov't money. (And Rav Meshulam Dovid implies the same thing.)
Cite דעת תורה in order to negate it. At the least it make awaken those תינוקות שנשבו who still have the ability to think just a little.
Il note that more recently than with צדוקים the Chasam Sofer advocated separating from maskilim who were undermining certain aspects of Torah. Also had a serious risk that it arguably pushed the Maskilim further away.
I would argue machlokes is a super powerful tool but only use if the positive results are likely to work, otherwise it's too dangerous and destructive to a already stressful family situation.
Il note that more recently than with צדוקים the Chasam Sofer advocated separating from maskilim who were undermining certain aspects of Torah. Also had a serious risk that it arguably pushed the Maskilim further away.
I would argue machlokes is a super powerful tool but only use if the positive results are likely to work, otherwise it's too dangerous and destructive to a already stressful family situation.
Il note that more recently than with צדוקים the Chasam Sofer advocated separating from maskilim who were undermining certain aspects of Torah. Also had a serious risk that it arguably pushed the Maskilim further away.
I would argue machlokes is a super powerful tool but only use if the positive results are likely to work, otherwise it's too dangerous and destructive to a already stressful family situation.
Il note that more recently than with צדוקים the Chasam Sofer advocated separating from maskilim who were undermining certain aspects of Torah. Also had a serious risk that it arguably pushed the Maskilim further away.
I would argue machlokes is a super powerful tool but only use if the positive results are likely to work, otherwise it's too dangerous and destructive to a already stressful family situation.
Il note that more recently than with צדוקים the Chasam Sofer advocated separating from maskilim who were undermining certain aspects of Torah. Also had a serious risk that it arguably pushed the Maskilim further away.
I would argue machlokes is a super powerful tool but only use if the positive results are likely to work, otherwise it's too dangerous and destructive to a already stressful family situation.
Il note that more recently than with צדוקים the Chasam Sofer advocated separating from maskilim who were undermining certain aspects of Torah. Also had a serious risk that it arguably pushed the Maskilim further away.
I would argue machlokes is a super powerful tool but only use if the positive results are likely to work, otherwise it's too dangerous and destructive to a already stressful family situation.
לא נמנעו בית שמאי לישה נשים מבית הלל its not that I don't agree, its more that i see it as super risky. In reference to Saducees of old that has a absolute effect of cutting them out albeit justifiably so. Now maybe in this situation it's also justified. Either way serious risk , is there a benefit yes potentially but still questionable vs the risk.
Your advocacy of a social break from Chareidim is wrong and misguided. The Charediim don't serve in the army because they fear they may become non-observant due their exposure to a secular lifestyle. I happen to share your opinion that every Jew must serve, especially given the accommodations available to the frum community within the army. Nonetheless, any social disconnection is morally abhorrent. The Chareidim are not Saducees. Your advocacy of disconnection is dangerous to the entire Jewish People.
That's not the reason that they don't serve. And their disconnection is much, much worse than not going to weddings.
Their disconnection may or may not be worse, but your weddings suggestion is creepy -The Bar Kamtza story was about weddings. I have no problem with jail, travel bans even losing the right to vote for draft evasion. But I cannot condone tearing our People apart.
Do you have kids in the IDF? If not, then I don't think you sufficiently appreciate how the people have already been torn apart.
I live in the States. Were I to live in Israel, I, as well as my kids would definitely serve (I hope). I did learn in what you would call Charedi (I hate that label) yeshivos, but have a broader worldview than Israeli Charedim. Many of my friends feel the same way as I do. I am absolutely opposed to any sort of protests or demonstrations regarding the draft and I actively try to convince others to refrain from any public opposition. I sincerely hope that the Agudah in the USA does not get hijacked by extremists who support protests. I happen to like you, but cannot condone what you wrote in this post.
Like I said, if you lived here, you would have a better understanding of the seriousness of the situation.