Aren't most topics taught in schools useless for actually earning a living? Is not learning about photosynthesis and Pythagoras theorom really something that hareidim can't make up for later?
Moshe Rabbeinu demanded that Reuven, Gad, and Menashe help conquer the Land before retiring to east of the Jordan. Sounds like a draft to me, one that Chazal would surely not oppose.
And if a draft to conquer the Land is kosher, kal vachomer one to DEFEND it is.
Sadly, it seems to that your secular education failed to provide you with adequate critical thinking. Maybe try joining a kollel?
The draft Moshe Rabbeinu demanded was an army compromised of exclusively of religious “fanatics”. You sure you know what a קל וחומר is? דיו לבוא מן הדין להיות כנדון…
Lou, you've said that chareidim aren't allowed to enter the workforce (or aren't allowed to earn more than they do--it's unclear) because of the draft. If that were true, then everyone subject to the draft would likewise be barred from the workforce (or from earning more than chareidim do). Obviously that is not true; there are millions doing so.
Furthermore, chareidim have the same entree to the workforce as everyone else, but for the waiting period they impose on themselves by CHOOSING to take the draft exemption.
It's learning how to learn. The specifics tend not to matter so much, but the rigor of secular subjects isn't the same when learning Torah. It's different skills.
Most "difficult" sugyos r difficult only because u have to reconcile too many independent axioms. Sure, if u have to find common ground among the unproven postulates that God created the world and he ALSO is good, just, fair, honest, merciful, infallible, consistent, and wrote the Torah, which usually needs interpretation to understand what it says, then OF COURSE many sugyos r difficult. If u grant many fewer assumptions, then all problems and sugyos r quite easy to understand. If we assume God created the world, but that he did not give innumerable laws, moral or otherwise, then it is easy to explain his failing to intervene during the holocaust.
I recall that a certain Rosh Yeshiva made that point to encourage his students. He said the basic corpus of Torah literature- T'nach + Meforshim, Midrash, Shas + meforshim, the fundamental halachic codes and important שו"ת while taking years to master, is still far less material that what a PhD in English Literature would have to know.
No, Dov. Understanding the basics of the natural world is an important skill necessary to being a good citizen and a good employee. I have met Haredim who, unfortunately, do not understand the role and function of blood in human life.
Yes. Blood is the red fluid circulating in your vascular system, delivering oxygen to tissues, removing waste products, and maintaining blood pressure. It contains special cells that perform many additional functions as well.
Then what bearing does that have on being a good citizen? When W Harvey was ridiculed as a "circulator", and earlier, were there no good citizens/employees?
1) That even the most rudimentary education towards learning a trade would permanently and pervasively ruin everybody. There is no one who could survive the heretical onslaught which is the Pythagorean theorem.
Everyone will fail!
2) That even the most sophisticated education for an exclusive profession can be attained later in life by someone who has neglected the most rudimentary education.
Is it relevant to the "Torah protects; ignorance (of secular knowledge) is bliss" camp that it is one thing for them to hold these beliefs; it is quite another to demand that the great majority of the Israel join them in that belief and subsidize them.
To put this in a broader context, one of the bedrocks of a liberal democratic system is that I have a right to believe whatever I want - as long as I don't try to impose those beliefs on others by, for example, demanding that they pay for them. And yet that is exactly what the Charedi camp is trying to do.
Of course, they may respond by rejecting the premise - that Israel is a liberal democracy. Which admittedly highlights a contradiction built in to the democratic experiment: it allows those who reject the fundamental principles of the system to take advantage of the system by participating in it, and subverting it. But the Chareidim should at least be honest about their demand that their fellow citizens finance what 80% of the country sees as beliefs that will destroy the state.
A journalist called Charedim "parasites"? Drop everything, OMG!!!----Political opponents have called them this name for at least fifty years, why does it shock you? This is what happens in politics - your opponents call you names. I got new for you: the Charedim also call the Chilonim names. Only a fool (and yes, there are some fools, but not that many) sits there worrying about how his political opponents try to spin them.
"One can only pray that somehow the budget will fail to pass and the government will collapse."
This is a political issue -- it's about the distribution of Government funds. Israel is still a democracy -- votes count, more than prayer. The willingness of Likud to accept the haredi demands, to maintain the coalition and keep Bibi out of jail, are worrisome to an outsider.
I know this has been brought up in the past, and I'm not calling anyone names, but the idea seems quite relevant:
Sanhedrin 99b - אפיקורוס כגון מאן אמר רב יוסף כגון הני דאמרי מאי אהנו לן רבנן לדידהו קרו לדידהו תנו
who is an example of an apikorus? Rav Yosef says: It is referring to one who conducts himself like those who say: In what manner have the Sages benefited us with all their Torah study? They read the Bible for their own benefit and they study the Mishna for their own benefit.
רש"י: מאי אהני לן - והם אינן יודעין שעולם מתקיים עליהם
The Gemara then goes on to say that such a person is actually worse than an אפיקורוס because he is denying flat out psukim, but we can start here.
Vehemence is a neutral thing. It itself is nothing negative; when used for the good it's good, otherwise otherwise.
For the record, רבנן means the תלמידי הישיבה when in the context of אמרו לי' רבנן לרבא/ לרב פפא/וכולי... and סברי רבנן למימר.
In particular, רבנן in Sanhedrin 99b that דוד quoted means תלמידי הישיבה. People did not say מאי אהנו לן רבנן about the Rabbonim and leaders because they surely were אהנו to the people during their constant interactions with them. Rather, it refers to the תלמידים, the so-called leidikgeyers.
But I can't even begin to address your vehemence. I feel pain that circumstances and/or thoughtless people/institutions brought you to where you are. You should only know goodness.
I identify as charedi, and, essentially, I agree with the points you are making.
However, I think we should be trying to find the best way of solving this whilst taking into consideration why the chareidi leadership are making the decisions they are, and to engage with them regarding the serious problems they are bringing to the state of Israel.
There is little point in criticizing their approach, if they won't agree to make any changes. After all, even if, for example, a left wing government were in charge, and they withdrew all funding for chareidi schools would that really bring about any educational change in chareidi institutions? It would likely only bring increased poverty and groing hatred/distrust between the chareidi community and the rest of the Israeli population.
As far as I can see, the best way to solve these problems is to engage with the chareidi community, understand the reasons for what they are doing, explain the problems it's causing and working together to find solutions/compromise etc.
Once one subtracts non-working and working-off-the-books haredim, Arabs, retirees, and minimal income households, how many taxpaying households are there in Israel, between whom this billion dollar bill will be split? Maybe 350,000, meaning $3,000 per taxpaying family?
Does it count towards their ma'asser money, given the amazing Torah they'll be enabling?
זכרון says that overall the budget is ~130bn. If that passes fact-checking, the allotment to Chareidim is 2%-3% Then at most you can count 2%-3% of your taxes toward Maaser.
Also, is the 130bn divided among the 350k taxpaying households and how much per each?
An elephant in the room is how much of the budget goes to secular entertainment (in general & per capita) and how that's a 'necessary' expense while the 2%-3% (if that is the correct figure) Chareidi allotment will bring the country to ruin.
I was looking for a needle, not a haystack in which I didn't find what I'm looking for, namely, what the total budget is. Never mind that the article leaves the reader dull and witless about what the Chareidi perspective is, or that there even can be one. Maybe there's something of that in the comments, which I may or may not have time to read. Thanks anyway. Good Yom Tov to all.
Too bad you ignored the haystack, which explains why the billion dollars is only a small part of government's subsidies to haredim and how the billion invested will harm the country financially for the near future.
It is very confusing that each side of the debate claims to be the only 1 consistent with Chazal's teachings. Obviously, each side can invoke passages that support their contention. It is unconvincing to Haredim for u to tell them that the anti-education faction goes against Chazal.
If petitionary prayers do not yield fulfillment to your requests (most of the time), then even the placebo comfort they might provide to the intelligent pray-er does not exist either. Then, what value do they have?
Overall a fabulous comment, but your hope that he desist from fortune telling can't be expected from a Baal Yesurim until you address them. If you have, or anyone has, any ideas how to do that, let us know.
Torah didn't protect R' Akiva or his 24000 disciples. Why do you think your Torah learning merits physical protection when theirs didn't? Do you think they weren't learning enough Torah, or that your Torah is greater than theirs? If Torah learning cannot even guarantee that you won't be tortured to death with iron combs, what does it mean to say that "Torah protects"?
You guys bring a lot of Gemara citations to support your view, but I think this is quite unnecessary. "Torah protects" is a prediction about the physical world. If "Torah protects" is really true, then we should be able to independently discover that this protection effect exists, even if the Gemara said nothing about it! But if the protection effect is indistinguishable from statistical noise, then again, what does it mean to say that "Torah protects"?
It's hard to make the argument that Torah learning offers physical protection per se, but I absolutely agree that "Shomrei Torah impart tremendous benefit." The benefit is that there is a strong cohort of people who are ensuring that Torah, Judaism and the Jewish people continue to exist. I don't have numbers offhand, but if you look at non-religious Jews (maybe even Modern Orthodox Jews), a couple of generations down, you will most likely find non-Jewish grandchildren. I'm not saying everyone should be charedi (I'm not), and I'm not saying charedim are doing everything right (who is?), but without a mass of devout Jews (in Israel or elsewhere) how long would the Jewish people survive?
No one is denying the deep value of limmud Torah. It's a core value of keeping Torah umitzvot, and yes, it has sustained us for the last 2,000 years. But you are putting forward an assertion that only those who study Torah full-time, (and take money for it) can be considered "devout". That's a massive insult to hardworking people who support their families and are also kovea itim for Torah every day.
That is not what I asserted at all. I asserted that charedi Jews present a significant mass of devout Jews and devout Jews are essential to the continued transmission of the Jewish people and of Judaism.
There is one other demographic tragedy when discussing American Jewry. The history of American Jewry since the first Jews set food on N America and for each successive wave of immigration has been one of initially following mitzvot, intergration, assimilation, intermarriage, disappearance.
Even allowing for patrilineal descent, the number of non-Jews who are members of or active with Jewish congregations has grown enormously in recent years. I'm not trying to detract from whatever connection those individuals may feel with Jewish life, or with their Jewish family members, but I am not kidding myself for a second that they will be the ones sustaining Torah and Judaism for future generations. One thing I will say is that there is more Torah learning than ever today in non-religious congregations because, I think, many denominations have come to realize that without Torah, Judaism loses much of its meaning.
WADR, your simplistic comment comes from the freethinking paradigm. Bounce it off a frum thinker and they'll tell you how it's been addressed throughout the ages. It's just too basic not to have been dealt with. In Yiddish lore, "Antplekt America." Or go through the archives of the comments of this blog and you'll find your answer too.
That's false in some cases and doubtful in others (especially what we now know about genetics.) But in any event, if you are reduced to redefining "protects" merely to " reduces incidence of", you can redefine the same thing for Torah.
Yes. And also, Torah did not merely fail to protect Rabbi Akiva. Torah put a target on his back. Torah got him killed. If he listened to Natan Slifkin's advice, perhaps he would not have been killed.
"As I said before, I am able to admit my community's faults"
LOL. You are not. You simply use the no true Scotsman argument. Any woman for example, that wears a long glamorous lace top sheital (even not lace-top) is not real chareidi (as they ignore clear pronouncements of da'as torah). Any man that misses zemanei tefillah on a regular basis is not real chareidi. Any man involved in stealing benefits is not real chareidi. Any man who spends considerable time gossiping about 'yenem's money/business ' is not real chareidi. When you have finished, you might find maybe only Kiryat Seifer contain some real chareidim.
You said that the latest windfall would support שומרי תורה ומצות. But what does not teaching a trade have to do with following הלכה? Your response is a non sequitur and doesn't justify your earlier statement.
happygoluckypersonage, it's not a zero sum game. It's possible for both the chareidim AND the government to run afoul of the Sages' values sometimes, and to adhere to them at others. In fact, that seems to be what's happening.
Aren't most topics taught in schools useless for actually earning a living? Is not learning about photosynthesis and Pythagoras theorom really something that hareidim can't make up for later?
There's a reason why charedim who enter the workforce earn vastly less than non-charedim. It's because they have a vastly inferior education.
"There's a reason why charedim who enter the workforce earn vastly less than non-charedim."
Because they aren't allowed to because of the anti-Chazal draft?
Moshe Rabbeinu demanded that Reuven, Gad, and Menashe help conquer the Land before retiring to east of the Jordan. Sounds like a draft to me, one that Chazal would surely not oppose.
And if a draft to conquer the Land is kosher, kal vachomer one to DEFEND it is.
Sadly, it seems to that your secular education failed to provide you with adequate critical thinking. Maybe try joining a kollel?
The draft Moshe Rabbeinu demanded was an army compromised of exclusively of religious “fanatics”. You sure you know what a קל וחומר is? דיו לבוא מן הדין להיות כנדון…
Lou, you've said that chareidim aren't allowed to enter the workforce (or aren't allowed to earn more than they do--it's unclear) because of the draft. If that were true, then everyone subject to the draft would likewise be barred from the workforce (or from earning more than chareidim do). Obviously that is not true; there are millions doing so.
Furthermore, chareidim have the same entree to the workforce as everyone else, but for the waiting period they impose on themselves by CHOOSING to take the draft exemption.
This discussion is for those who accept the basic values of Judaism. Since that isn't you, please refrain from commenting.
Are you against the weaker minded learning a trade?
Most charedim know nothing about טומאת התהום, מיגו להוציא or חזקה דמעיקרא too.
Virtually all Chareidim are familiar with מיגו להוציא and חזקה דמעיקרא by the time they finish high school.
It's learning how to learn. The specifics tend not to matter so much, but the rigor of secular subjects isn't the same when learning Torah. It's different skills.
CBH - I'd love for you to join my Chabura! We were dealing with some rather difficult sugyos, maybe you can help us out...
Most "difficult" sugyos r difficult only because u have to reconcile too many independent axioms. Sure, if u have to find common ground among the unproven postulates that God created the world and he ALSO is good, just, fair, honest, merciful, infallible, consistent, and wrote the Torah, which usually needs interpretation to understand what it says, then OF COURSE many sugyos r difficult. If u grant many fewer assumptions, then all problems and sugyos r quite easy to understand. If we assume God created the world, but that he did not give innumerable laws, moral or otherwise, then it is easy to explain his failing to intervene during the holocaust.
No comparison. Limudei kodesh r MUCH easier than advanced secular study.
I recall that a certain Rosh Yeshiva made that point to encourage his students. He said the basic corpus of Torah literature- T'nach + Meforshim, Midrash, Shas + meforshim, the fundamental halachic codes and important שו"ת while taking years to master, is still far less material that what a PhD in English Literature would have to know.
Don't both have ranges of difficulty?
No, Dov. Understanding the basics of the natural world is an important skill necessary to being a good citizen and a good employee. I have met Haredim who, unfortunately, do not understand the role and function of blood in human life.
"the role and function of blood in human life."
Can you be more specific?
Yes. Blood is the red fluid circulating in your vascular system, delivering oxygen to tissues, removing waste products, and maintaining blood pressure. It contains special cells that perform many additional functions as well.
Am I going too fast?
Then what bearing does that have on being a good citizen? When W Harvey was ridiculed as a "circulator", and earlier, were there no good citizens/employees?
U r both remarkable exceptions that less talented people can never accomplish.
There are two mutually exclusive principles here:
1) That even the most rudimentary education towards learning a trade would permanently and pervasively ruin everybody. There is no one who could survive the heretical onslaught which is the Pythagorean theorem.
Everyone will fail!
2) That even the most sophisticated education for an exclusive profession can be attained later in life by someone who has neglected the most rudimentary education.
Everyone will succeed!
Is it relevant to the "Torah protects; ignorance (of secular knowledge) is bliss" camp that it is one thing for them to hold these beliefs; it is quite another to demand that the great majority of the Israel join them in that belief and subsidize them.
To put this in a broader context, one of the bedrocks of a liberal democratic system is that I have a right to believe whatever I want - as long as I don't try to impose those beliefs on others by, for example, demanding that they pay for them. And yet that is exactly what the Charedi camp is trying to do.
Of course, they may respond by rejecting the premise - that Israel is a liberal democracy. Which admittedly highlights a contradiction built in to the democratic experiment: it allows those who reject the fundamental principles of the system to take advantage of the system by participating in it, and subverting it. But the Chareidim should at least be honest about their demand that their fellow citizens finance what 80% of the country sees as beliefs that will destroy the state.
A journalist called Charedim "parasites"? Drop everything, OMG!!!----Political opponents have called them this name for at least fifty years, why does it shock you? This is what happens in politics - your opponents call you names. I got new for you: the Charedim also call the Chilonim names. Only a fool (and yes, there are some fools, but not that many) sits there worrying about how his political opponents try to spin them.
"One can only pray that somehow the budget will fail to pass and the government will collapse."
This is a political issue -- it's about the distribution of Government funds. Israel is still a democracy -- votes count, more than prayer. The willingness of Likud to accept the haredi demands, to maintain the coalition and keep Bibi out of jail, are worrisome to an outsider.
Its called a mature and well thought out investment.
Studying the crocodiles abdomen may give one the title "doctor" but hey, in the next world it wont get one very far.
On the other hand studying Torah may mean eating class 2 zucchini for 70 years but the million year afterlife will be so much more enjoyable.
Its called a well thought out and mature investment
I know this has been brought up in the past, and I'm not calling anyone names, but the idea seems quite relevant:
Sanhedrin 99b - אפיקורוס כגון מאן אמר רב יוסף כגון הני דאמרי מאי אהנו לן רבנן לדידהו קרו לדידהו תנו
who is an example of an apikorus? Rav Yosef says: It is referring to one who conducts himself like those who say: In what manner have the Sages benefited us with all their Torah study? They read the Bible for their own benefit and they study the Mishna for their own benefit.
רש"י: מאי אהני לן - והם אינן יודעין שעולם מתקיים עליהם
The Gemara then goes on to say that such a person is actually worse than an אפיקורוס because he is denying flat out psukim, but we can start here.
When the talmud refers to 'Rabbanan' it does not mean 'stam' people in kollel. It mean real rabbonim, leaders of communities. Manhigim.
Not groups of avreichim trying to find the next chumrah or possul the next eiruv.
Vehemence is a neutral thing. It itself is nothing negative; when used for the good it's good, otherwise otherwise.
For the record, רבנן means the תלמידי הישיבה when in the context of אמרו לי' רבנן לרבא/ לרב פפא/וכולי... and סברי רבנן למימר.
In particular, רבנן in Sanhedrin 99b that דוד quoted means תלמידי הישיבה. People did not say מאי אהנו לן רבנן about the Rabbonim and leaders because they surely were אהנו to the people during their constant interactions with them. Rather, it refers to the תלמידים, the so-called leidikgeyers.
But I can't even begin to address your vehemence. I feel pain that circumstances and/or thoughtless people/institutions brought you to where you are. You should only know goodness.
It means understanding the importance of the Torah's role and of those who learn it, and that it keeps the world running and safe.
Well, if you read Lehovin, you would know the government also spends tons of money to brainwash Chareidim, which is exactly like the nazis.
https://daastorah.substack.com/p/the-vaccine-is-kefira
I identify as charedi, and, essentially, I agree with the points you are making.
However, I think we should be trying to find the best way of solving this whilst taking into consideration why the chareidi leadership are making the decisions they are, and to engage with them regarding the serious problems they are bringing to the state of Israel.
There is little point in criticizing their approach, if they won't agree to make any changes. After all, even if, for example, a left wing government were in charge, and they withdrew all funding for chareidi schools would that really bring about any educational change in chareidi institutions? It would likely only bring increased poverty and groing hatred/distrust between the chareidi community and the rest of the Israeli population.
As far as I can see, the best way to solve these problems is to engage with the chareidi community, understand the reasons for what they are doing, explain the problems it's causing and working together to find solutions/compromise etc.
Any thoughts?
Once one subtracts non-working and working-off-the-books haredim, Arabs, retirees, and minimal income households, how many taxpaying households are there in Israel, between whom this billion dollar bill will be split? Maybe 350,000, meaning $3,000 per taxpaying family?
Does it count towards their ma'asser money, given the amazing Torah they'll be enabling?
זכרון says that overall the budget is ~130bn. If that passes fact-checking, the allotment to Chareidim is 2%-3% Then at most you can count 2%-3% of your taxes toward Maaser.
Also, is the 130bn divided among the 350k taxpaying households and how much per each?
An elephant in the room is how much of the budget goes to secular entertainment (in general & per capita) and how that's a 'necessary' expense while the 2%-3% (if that is the correct figure) Chareidi allotment will bring the country to ruin.
See yesterday's Times of Israel analysis, rather than have me encapsulate it for you.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-new-state-budget-favors-haredim-and-hurts-them/
I was looking for a needle, not a haystack in which I didn't find what I'm looking for, namely, what the total budget is. Never mind that the article leaves the reader dull and witless about what the Chareidi perspective is, or that there even can be one. Maybe there's something of that in the comments, which I may or may not have time to read. Thanks anyway. Good Yom Tov to all.
Too bad you ignored the haystack, which explains why the billion dollars is only a small part of government's subsidies to haredim and how the billion invested will harm the country financially for the near future.
It is very confusing that each side of the debate claims to be the only 1 consistent with Chazal's teachings. Obviously, each side can invoke passages that support their contention. It is unconvincing to Haredim for u to tell them that the anti-education faction goes against Chazal.
If petitionary prayers do not yield fulfillment to your requests (most of the time), then even the placebo comfort they might provide to the intelligent pray-er does not exist either. Then, what value do they have?
Overall a fabulous comment, but your hope that he desist from fortune telling can't be expected from a Baal Yesurim until you address them. If you have, or anyone has, any ideas how to do that, let us know.
Torah didn't protect R' Akiva or his 24000 disciples. Why do you think your Torah learning merits physical protection when theirs didn't? Do you think they weren't learning enough Torah, or that your Torah is greater than theirs? If Torah learning cannot even guarantee that you won't be tortured to death with iron combs, what does it mean to say that "Torah protects"?
You guys bring a lot of Gemara citations to support your view, but I think this is quite unnecessary. "Torah protects" is a prediction about the physical world. If "Torah protects" is really true, then we should be able to independently discover that this protection effect exists, even if the Gemara said nothing about it! But if the protection effect is indistinguishable from statistical noise, then again, what does it mean to say that "Torah protects"?
Even I can make a prediction more accurate than "Torah protects." For example, "HGLP will not respond to these arguments"!
I was wrong. I am disappointed, happy.
He will.
It's hard to make the argument that Torah learning offers physical protection per se, but I absolutely agree that "Shomrei Torah impart tremendous benefit." The benefit is that there is a strong cohort of people who are ensuring that Torah, Judaism and the Jewish people continue to exist. I don't have numbers offhand, but if you look at non-religious Jews (maybe even Modern Orthodox Jews), a couple of generations down, you will most likely find non-Jewish grandchildren. I'm not saying everyone should be charedi (I'm not), and I'm not saying charedim are doing everything right (who is?), but without a mass of devout Jews (in Israel or elsewhere) how long would the Jewish people survive?
No one is denying the deep value of limmud Torah. It's a core value of keeping Torah umitzvot, and yes, it has sustained us for the last 2,000 years. But you are putting forward an assertion that only those who study Torah full-time, (and take money for it) can be considered "devout". That's a massive insult to hardworking people who support their families and are also kovea itim for Torah every day.
That is not what I asserted at all. I asserted that charedi Jews present a significant mass of devout Jews and devout Jews are essential to the continued transmission of the Jewish people and of Judaism.
Another comment demonizing dati leumi. As if chareidim don’t go off the derech.
There is one other demographic tragedy when discussing American Jewry. The history of American Jewry since the first Jews set food on N America and for each successive wave of immigration has been one of initially following mitzvot, intergration, assimilation, intermarriage, disappearance.
Even allowing for patrilineal descent, the number of non-Jews who are members of or active with Jewish congregations has grown enormously in recent years. I'm not trying to detract from whatever connection those individuals may feel with Jewish life, or with their Jewish family members, but I am not kidding myself for a second that they will be the ones sustaining Torah and Judaism for future generations. One thing I will say is that there is more Torah learning than ever today in non-religious congregations because, I think, many denominations have come to realize that without Torah, Judaism loses much of its meaning.
So why can't you just say that instead of saying things that are nonsensical?
1939-1945. 6,000,000
WADR, your simplistic comment comes from the freethinking paradigm. Bounce it off a frum thinker and they'll tell you how it's been addressed throughout the ages. It's just too basic not to have been dealt with. In Yiddish lore, "Antplekt America." Or go through the archives of the comments of this blog and you'll find your answer too.
See also https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/storks-chicks-and-refuseniks/comment/15333193, דיבור המתחיל "A good idea."
If the vaccine didn't stop Covid, what did it mean to say "the Vaccine protects"?
If eating healthy can't stop leukemia, what does it mean "Eating healthy protects"?
If exercise can't stop a heat attack, what does it mean to say "Exercise protects"?
Becausese although they don't 'stop', they reduce incidence of.
That's false in some cases and doubtful in others (especially what we now know about genetics.) But in any event, if you are reduced to redefining "protects" merely to " reduces incidence of", you can redefine the same thing for Torah.
Yes. And also, Torah did not merely fail to protect Rabbi Akiva. Torah put a target on his back. Torah got him killed. If he listened to Natan Slifkin's advice, perhaps he would not have been killed.
A more accurate comparison: "The IDF couldn't even prevent its own Commander-in-Chief and 24,000 of its soldiers from being taken captive"!
What does not teaching a trade have to שומרי תורה ומצות?
How does teaching a trade detract from שומרי תורה ומצות?
"As I said before, I am able to admit my community's faults"
LOL. You are not. You simply use the no true Scotsman argument. Any woman for example, that wears a long glamorous lace top sheital (even not lace-top) is not real chareidi (as they ignore clear pronouncements of da'as torah). Any man that misses zemanei tefillah on a regular basis is not real chareidi. Any man involved in stealing benefits is not real chareidi. Any man who spends considerable time gossiping about 'yenem's money/business ' is not real chareidi. When you have finished, you might find maybe only Kiryat Seifer contain some real chareidim.
You said that the latest windfall would support שומרי תורה ומצות. But what does not teaching a trade have to do with following הלכה? Your response is a non sequitur and doesn't justify your earlier statement.
happygoluckypersonage, it's not a zero sum game. It's possible for both the chareidim AND the government to run afoul of the Sages' values sometimes, and to adhere to them at others. In fact, that seems to be what's happening.