Yes, these folks must stop taking money and not balancing the responsibilities of a great country. They must be educated in science and grow up to add rather than detract from the hard work of secular Israelis. Either train for the army or stop taking money from those who earn it in helping Israel become the most amazing country in the world! 💙🤍💪🏻🇮🇱
It isn't necessarily science. There are many good and vital jobs in various sectors of the economy. It is the subsidising of voluntary unemployment that has to stop.
In my readings of the ultra orthodox education, I find that mathematics and science are limited in their higher education. Algebra and biology, chemistry and physics are taught in nonreligious schools not for the explicit knowledge they bring, but the logic, critical thinking and problem solving implicitly learned from these subjects. Logical and critical thinking are so necessary in the 21st century more than ever, and without students spending time on these basic sciences, humans will evolve into sheep… continually falling for disinformation.
Also limited. Although getting better, because girls do not have the son of bittul Toireh. They have no obligation to learn anything in Torah beyond their halachic confines.
Critical thinking is incompatible with unquestionable authority. It is the second greatest threat to everything from MAGATry and doctrinaire Maoism to theocracy. There is a reason why boys in Islamist madrassas and Charedi yeshivot are kept far away from it except in highly constrained, extremely limited areas.
They would probably counter that teaching Gemara (like they currently do for men) teaches critical thinking as well as, if not better than, most science and mathematics programs.
It is more than just science. That have to be willing to obey the law, engage in real economic work, be citizens, deal with people outside their sects as human beings with the same rights and worth, and learn things that are uncomfortable. They also have to root out the culture of entitlement and bigotry. It's a talk order, but the survival of Israel, their own subculture, and possibly Judaism requires it
The 'Rak Lo Bibi' camp prefers to die on that hill rather than compromise and pass laws that would make the charedim integrate more into the israeli society.
It goes without saying that budget cuts are coming for all sectors. Who is responsible for the fact that a high proportion of haredi males poorly prepaired for the labor market (often unwilling to enter it) whose families chose to construct their lifestyle around government assistance? Not the secular or traditional Israelis. Not the dati leumi. Choices.
The problem does not seem complicated: chareidi self-segregation in Israel exists because it is subsidized by other Israelis. What is not obvious to me is why Israelis -- assuming a majority are no longer on board with this -- seem incapable of electing politicians who will end these policies.
If Bibi wasn't the machiavellian in that regard, then the Charedim would join the left and get their exemptions and payouts from them.
On the other hand, if the Charedi support for Bibi is genuine and Bibi is not the political genius, then the Charedim would remain with the right and get their exemptions and payouts from them.
I am no expert on Israeli politics, but I would think if Likud remained unresponsive to a large majority of the Israeli public, it would risk a loss of votes in the next election. I would also think Likud would see Israel's negative net migration as a risk to the long-term viability of the State, i.e., irrespective of political machinations, citizens always have the option of casting the ultimate vote with their feet.
Certainly anyone who continues to support Likud in the next election (whenever that is) is welcome to leave their jobs and families and serve in miluim full time so our children can get in with their lives.
After all, if the 66,000 charedim currently evading service aren’t needed, obviously there is no manpower shortage and there is no need for our kids need to serve months every year.
This all will change as soon as they feel things affecting them. Cut government funding and it'll change overnight. Theological talk is a waste of time, someone else can come up with a different theology.
It's easy to live a self-encompassing delusional life as long as it doesn't affect you. Theology always explains after the fact.
Well, being honest, there's a lot of spending cut to be made in all sectors of society, nos just charedim. The argument to be made is to cut the gov. budget in all sectors.
If you only focus on charedim in this respect, it's a bigoted opinion.
Not all spending is equal -- some sectors are more deserving of scrutiny based on their impact and merit.
The Charedi sector disproportionately relies on subsidies or contributes less to the economy, so it’s fair to focus on that without being “bigoted.” Calling it bigotry shuts down the conversation instead of addressing the real issue: whether the spending is justified.
Not every critique needs to include all sectors to be valid
The numbers are very well documented by many gov and nonprofit agencies.
Here's a summary:
Employment Rates: As of 2021, approximately 51% of Haredi men aged 25–64 were employed, significantly lower than the 87% employment rate among other Jewish men in Israel.
Income Levels: In 2018, the average net monthly income for Haredi households was ILS 13,160, compared to ILS 18,603 for non-Haredi Jewish households. Notably, 27% of the Haredi household income came from government transfer payments, whereas such payments constituted only 12% for non-Haredi Jewish households.
Tax Contributions: On average, non-Haredi Jewish households paid ILS 4,371 in direct taxes per month, while Haredi households contributed significantly less, at ILS 1,517.
Poverty Rates: The poverty rate among Haredi families is notably high, with approximately 45% living below the poverty line, compared to 13% among other Jewish families.
i looked at the reports. It is scary if nothing changes. The report predicts by 2060 there will be almost 6 million Ultra orthdox. If half are charedi then we will be supporting 3 million people, who are not productive, but live off the rest. Mind boggling!
P.S. Also think of all the people coming to collect for wedding of their kids!
I don't remember the exact numbers and I don't care. My point is that it is not so convenient for your purposes to report that, so you (and everyone on your side) leaves it out.
So even ignoring what Charedim would have to say about it and taking your naturalistic perspective I ask you this: If that is your biassed modus operandi, why should your stats be taken seriously, what else are you leaving out?
According to Haviv Rettig Gur in a recent Times of Israel podcast on this subject, the average charedi family takes 3000Nis monthly from the state, whereas the average non charedi family contributes the same amount.
Translated: "We won't changed a thing. You have to sacrifice more." That dog won't hunt. Charedim are already disproportionately the beneficiaries of everyone else's labor and money. They need to shoulder the same burden as everyone else
Whether spending needs to be cut overall, something to leave to actual economists, it is clear that the special privileges the Charedim enjoy need to be slashed. A healthy organism can stand a certain parasite load, but the Charedi lifestyle is arguably the greatest existential threat to Israel. They must join the real world before they put Jewry into another 2000 years of galus
"Whether spending needs to be cut overall, something to leave to actual economists". No, this is settled, it needs to be cut. We can't discuss if the earth is flat all time. We know it is spherical. We know taxes need to be low.
Just fyi, the breathless reports of “charedim are drafting” include those like my nephew, who is chardal, learned at yeshiva gedola and then switched to hesder, but the timing didnt work out, and he qualified for Chetz - and when he went to enlist (remember, this is a kid who would have served anyway) he was slotted into the new charedi Hasmonean brigade, over his loud protestations - to pad the unit, presumably. He is not happy being a political pawn. How long he will last in a unit which forbids smartphones I couldn’t tell you.
Also, friends with sons in Chetz pre war told me the vast majority were absolutely not charedim - but chardal or yeshivish. It’s all a scam. Only time will tell if enough of the Israeli electorate in the future cares enough about this unethical (and frankly immoral) state of affairs to avoid political parties which pander to charedi blackmail.
Update: so far so good! The smartphone hasn’t really been an issue, and he said the other guys are solid. So hoping it works out for him in the long term.
Charedi, noun: a wretched parasite in need of excising, yet buried so deep in the host’s flesh that doing so would be fatal for the host. Utterly uninterested in applying his faculties toward any productive tasks, and content instead to leech money out of his less pious coreligionists’ pockets and convert it into hordes of mewling brats.
Not to be confused with the Israeli, who is by nature hardworking, amiable and witty.
"This needs to happen as soon as possible, before they drag the rest of the country down with them into catastrophe"
You are not really realizing what you are saying. This will drag the county to demise. It wont be long that the chlonim jump on the band wagon and say we are also not going -- for this reason or that . Maybe they will simply say the charedim don't go, I also wont go. Or a Father or Mothers will tell his son or daughter, I am too scared for you to go - don't go.
What Happens then??
A Dati Liumei parents can also say, I have weak nerves and I am too scared for you to go, i will suffer please don't go - let others that don't have such a weak parent go.. How can Israel arrest those and not the charedim?.......All will be lost then.
Army-wise, make the army voluntary, reduce the amount of people doing nothing and pay more to the soldiers.
Politics-wise, stop saying 'Rak Lo Bibi', reach an agreement and cut the subsidies for everyone (including charedim). Once you have this, they will either leave Israel or enter the workforce.
It's as if October 7 never happened to Slifkin. Somehow, he missed the Haredi's record IDF recruitment, and the animosities within Israeli society reduced in the face of the existential threat of the Jihadists.
See:
Israel’s Two Big Lies
Excerpt:
...Haim Ramon, a longtime Labor Party politician...One stat in particular left Ramon feeling dazed: Since Oct. 7, the Knesset revealed, 4,000 young Haredi men showed up of their own volition and asked to volunteer to fight, an initiative that would’ve doubled the number of Haredi soldiers overnight and proven a potential way out of the political impasse.
Unlike Natan Slifkin, who wants to punish the Haredi with economic boycotts, etc., Rabbi Dr. Kenneth Brander, the author of this article, has some positive, cooperative solutions to promote Haredi service to Israeli society.
1% of what everyone else has done. That is not a record you should be proud of. It should mortally shame you. Not merely standing idly by the blood of your neighbor but sneering as you drink it
Record number???? Out of how many potential recruits? 6-700 out of over 66000 and you call that a record? Dear friends of our sat shiva for a kid we watched grow up here in Boca. He left several kids. He needed backup. There was none because they were ‘sitting and learning’.
Just fyi, the breathless reports of “charedim are drafting” include those like my nephew, who is chardal, learned at yeshiva gedola and then switched to hesder, but the timing didnt work out, and he qualified for Chetz - and when he went to enlist (remember, this is a kid who would have served anyway) he was slotted into the new charedi Hasmonean brigade, over his loud protestations - to pad the unit, presumably. He is not happy being a political pawn. How long he will last in a unit which forbids smartphones I couldn’t tell you.
Also, friends with sons in Chetz pre war told me the vast majority were absolutely not charedim - but chardal or yeshivish. It’s all a scam. Only time will tell if enough of the Israeli electorate in the future cares enough about this unethical (and frankly immoral) state of affairs to avoid political parties which pander to charedi blackmail.
It's been shown with numbers up thread. Try to keep up. More to the point, would it make a bit of difference to you or the Charedi communities at large if you were forced to admit it? Would you suddenly start to work? Join the Army? Act like citizens with responsibilities to Yisrael? Treat everyone else with respect?
Yes - I see now he is combining the hyperlink from "as well as"which I didn't realize was showing as source for how much chareim cost. My question to you Mr Nuran, is what about my comment makes you assume I disagree with the author? All I did was ask for his source. Yet you insult me by saying try to keep up and then ask me if I would treat everyone else with respect...Your behavior in this post is very much like the chareidi commentators...
Yes, these folks must stop taking money and not balancing the responsibilities of a great country. They must be educated in science and grow up to add rather than detract from the hard work of secular Israelis. Either train for the army or stop taking money from those who earn it in helping Israel become the most amazing country in the world! 💙🤍💪🏻🇮🇱
It isn't necessarily science. There are many good and vital jobs in various sectors of the economy. It is the subsidising of voluntary unemployment that has to stop.
In my readings of the ultra orthodox education, I find that mathematics and science are limited in their higher education. Algebra and biology, chemistry and physics are taught in nonreligious schools not for the explicit knowledge they bring, but the logic, critical thinking and problem solving implicitly learned from these subjects. Logical and critical thinking are so necessary in the 21st century more than ever, and without students spending time on these basic sciences, humans will evolve into sheep… continually falling for disinformation.
The ultra-orthodox girls' schools teach science and mathematics.
Barely up to modern standards
Also limited. Although getting better, because girls do not have the son of bittul Toireh. They have no obligation to learn anything in Torah beyond their halachic confines.
Critical thinking is incompatible with unquestionable authority. It is the second greatest threat to everything from MAGATry and doctrinaire Maoism to theocracy. There is a reason why boys in Islamist madrassas and Charedi yeshivot are kept far away from it except in highly constrained, extremely limited areas.
Extremism in most everything is unwise. You will find irrationality in both extreme MAGA and TDS.
They would probably counter that teaching Gemara (like they currently do for men) teaches critical thinking as well as, if not better than, most science and mathematics programs.
It is more than just science. That have to be willing to obey the law, engage in real economic work, be citizens, deal with people outside their sects as human beings with the same rights and worth, and learn things that are uncomfortable. They also have to root out the culture of entitlement and bigotry. It's a talk order, but the survival of Israel, their own subculture, and possibly Judaism requires it
70% of the country are Zionist and agree on the major issues. The only reason that 70% is not the government is Bibi.
Or their own hatred of Bibi. Let's be realistic here.
Such a sectarian view.
The 'Rak Lo Bibi' camp prefers to die on that hill rather than compromise and pass laws that would make the charedim integrate more into the israeli society.
It goes without saying that budget cuts are coming for all sectors. Who is responsible for the fact that a high proportion of haredi males poorly prepaired for the labor market (often unwilling to enter it) whose families chose to construct their lifestyle around government assistance? Not the secular or traditional Israelis. Not the dati leumi. Choices.
The problem does not seem complicated: chareidi self-segregation in Israel exists because it is subsidized by other Israelis. What is not obvious to me is why Israelis -- assuming a majority are no longer on board with this -- seem incapable of electing politicians who will end these policies.
Because Bibi is a genius at splitting the nation and using charedi political support to remain in power.
Or because Bibi has genuine support and the charedi support, for better or for worse (for worse, really) happens to come with that.
Being cynical *all* the time is not a good look; nor is calling for an end to democracy.
I'm not whether the debate is relevant.
If Bibi wasn't the machiavellian in that regard, then the Charedim would join the left and get their exemptions and payouts from them.
On the other hand, if the Charedi support for Bibi is genuine and Bibi is not the political genius, then the Charedim would remain with the right and get their exemptions and payouts from them.
Well stated, sir!
I am no expert on Israeli politics, but I would think if Likud remained unresponsive to a large majority of the Israeli public, it would risk a loss of votes in the next election. I would also think Likud would see Israel's negative net migration as a risk to the long-term viability of the State, i.e., irrespective of political machinations, citizens always have the option of casting the ultimate vote with their feet.
Welcome to the world of coalition governments, voting for slates, and all the rest.
Certainly anyone who continues to support Likud in the next election (whenever that is) is welcome to leave their jobs and families and serve in miluim full time so our children can get in with their lives.
After all, if the 66,000 charedim currently evading service aren’t needed, obviously there is no manpower shortage and there is no need for our kids need to serve months every year.
I guess we are all a bit irrational sometimes.
Which politicians? Who would you vote for?
This all will change as soon as they feel things affecting them. Cut government funding and it'll change overnight. Theological talk is a waste of time, someone else can come up with a different theology.
It's easy to live a self-encompassing delusional life as long as it doesn't affect you. Theology always explains after the fact.
Well, being honest, there's a lot of spending cut to be made in all sectors of society, nos just charedim. The argument to be made is to cut the gov. budget in all sectors.
If you only focus on charedim in this respect, it's a bigoted opinion.
Not all spending is equal -- some sectors are more deserving of scrutiny based on their impact and merit.
The Charedi sector disproportionately relies on subsidies or contributes less to the economy, so it’s fair to focus on that without being “bigoted.” Calling it bigotry shuts down the conversation instead of addressing the real issue: whether the spending is justified.
Not every critique needs to include all sectors to be valid
Do you have numbers?
The numbers are very well documented by many gov and nonprofit agencies.
Here's a summary:
Employment Rates: As of 2021, approximately 51% of Haredi men aged 25–64 were employed, significantly lower than the 87% employment rate among other Jewish men in Israel.
Income Levels: In 2018, the average net monthly income for Haredi households was ILS 13,160, compared to ILS 18,603 for non-Haredi Jewish households. Notably, 27% of the Haredi household income came from government transfer payments, whereas such payments constituted only 12% for non-Haredi Jewish households.
Tax Contributions: On average, non-Haredi Jewish households paid ILS 4,371 in direct taxes per month, while Haredi households contributed significantly less, at ILS 1,517.
Poverty Rates: The poverty rate among Haredi families is notably high, with approximately 45% living below the poverty line, compared to 13% among other Jewish families.
Sources:
https://en.idi.org.il/media/20567/annual-statistical-report-on-ultra-orthodox-haredi-society-in-israel-2022-executive-summary.pdf
https://iyun.org.il/en/sedersheni/the-charedi-economy-conundrum/
that is awful. How can this 'derech' be justified?
i looked at the reports. It is scary if nothing changes. The report predicts by 2060 there will be almost 6 million Ultra orthdox. If half are charedi then we will be supporting 3 million people, who are not productive, but live off the rest. Mind boggling!
P.S. Also think of all the people coming to collect for wedding of their kids!
Wow. And thanks
Noticeably omitted are employment rates of women.
I don't remember the exact numbers and I don't care. My point is that it is not so convenient for your purposes to report that, so you (and everyone on your side) leaves it out.
So even ignoring what Charedim would have to say about it and taking your naturalistic perspective I ask you this: If that is your biassed modus operandi, why should your stats be taken seriously, what else are you leaving out?
I meant global numbers, how much does the Charedi budget represent?
According to Haviv Rettig Gur in a recent Times of Israel podcast on this subject, the average charedi family takes 3000Nis monthly from the state, whereas the average non charedi family contributes the same amount.
היי
Translated: "We won't changed a thing. You have to sacrifice more." That dog won't hunt. Charedim are already disproportionately the beneficiaries of everyone else's labor and money. They need to shoulder the same burden as everyone else
The argument should be to cut spending, not make everyone else pay more.
Unless you're socialist, in that case you would make that argument.
Whether spending needs to be cut overall, something to leave to actual economists, it is clear that the special privileges the Charedim enjoy need to be slashed. A healthy organism can stand a certain parasite load, but the Charedi lifestyle is arguably the greatest existential threat to Israel. They must join the real world before they put Jewry into another 2000 years of galus
"Whether spending needs to be cut overall, something to leave to actual economists". No, this is settled, it needs to be cut. We can't discuss if the earth is flat all time. We know it is spherical. We know taxes need to be low.
Just fyi, the breathless reports of “charedim are drafting” include those like my nephew, who is chardal, learned at yeshiva gedola and then switched to hesder, but the timing didnt work out, and he qualified for Chetz - and when he went to enlist (remember, this is a kid who would have served anyway) he was slotted into the new charedi Hasmonean brigade, over his loud protestations - to pad the unit, presumably. He is not happy being a political pawn. How long he will last in a unit which forbids smartphones I couldn’t tell you.
Also, friends with sons in Chetz pre war told me the vast majority were absolutely not charedim - but chardal or yeshivish. It’s all a scam. Only time will tell if enough of the Israeli electorate in the future cares enough about this unethical (and frankly immoral) state of affairs to avoid political parties which pander to charedi blackmail.
Update: so far so good! The smartphone hasn’t really been an issue, and he said the other guys are solid. So hoping it works out for him in the long term.
Charedi, noun: a wretched parasite in need of excising, yet buried so deep in the host’s flesh that doing so would be fatal for the host. Utterly uninterested in applying his faculties toward any productive tasks, and content instead to leech money out of his less pious coreligionists’ pockets and convert it into hordes of mewling brats.
Not to be confused with the Israeli, who is by nature hardworking, amiable and witty.
"This needs to happen as soon as possible, before they drag the rest of the country down with them into catastrophe"
You are not really realizing what you are saying. This will drag the county to demise. It wont be long that the chlonim jump on the band wagon and say we are also not going -- for this reason or that . Maybe they will simply say the charedim don't go, I also wont go. Or a Father or Mothers will tell his son or daughter, I am too scared for you to go - don't go.
What Happens then??
A Dati Liumei parents can also say, I have weak nerves and I am too scared for you to go, i will suffer please don't go - let others that don't have such a weak parent go.. How can Israel arrest those and not the charedim?.......All will be lost then.
Not sure why you think I don't realize all that.
It's very simple actually.
Army-wise, make the army voluntary, reduce the amount of people doing nothing and pay more to the soldiers.
Politics-wise, stop saying 'Rak Lo Bibi', reach an agreement and cut the subsidies for everyone (including charedim). Once you have this, they will either leave Israel or enter the workforce.
It's as if October 7 never happened to Slifkin. Somehow, he missed the Haredi's record IDF recruitment, and the animosities within Israeli society reduced in the face of the existential threat of the Jihadists.
See:
Israel’s Two Big Lies
Excerpt:
...Haim Ramon, a longtime Labor Party politician...One stat in particular left Ramon feeling dazed: Since Oct. 7, the Knesset revealed, 4,000 young Haredi men showed up of their own volition and asked to volunteer to fight, an initiative that would’ve doubled the number of Haredi soldiers overnight and proven a potential way out of the political impasse.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-two-big-lies
Haredi police officer serves in honor of her slain husband
Eliyahu Harush was one of 20 police officers who died fighting Hamas terrorists in Sderot on Oct. 7.
https://www.jns.org/haredi-police-officer-serves-in-honor-of-her-slain-husband/?_sc=NTAyMDI0NiMzNTIzMg%3D%3D&utm_campaign=Oct+7+Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=brevo
The haredi draft is everyone’s challenge
Unlike Natan Slifkin, who wants to punish the Haredi with economic boycotts, etc., Rabbi Dr. Kenneth Brander, the author of this article, has some positive, cooperative solutions to promote Haredi service to Israeli society.
https://www.jns.org/the-haredi-draft-is-everyones-challenge/?_sc=NTAyMDI0NiMzNTIzMg%3D%3D&utm_campaign=Evening+Syndicate+Sunday+7212024&utm_medium=email&utm_source=brevo
There was no amazing charedi recruitment after Oct 7, and no creation of achdus. The Tablet article was false.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/if-only-it-were-a-lie
Thanks for your input, Natan.
1% of what everyone else has done. That is not a record you should be proud of. It should mortally shame you. Not merely standing idly by the blood of your neighbor but sneering as you drink it
Thanks for your input.
Record number???? Out of how many potential recruits? 6-700 out of over 66000 and you call that a record? Dear friends of our sat shiva for a kid we watched grow up here in Boca. He left several kids. He needed backup. There was none because they were ‘sitting and learning’.
Thanks for your input, Harold.
"Anecdote" is not the same as "data".
Thanks for your input, Nachum.
Just fyi, the breathless reports of “charedim are drafting” include those like my nephew, who is chardal, learned at yeshiva gedola and then switched to hesder, but the timing didnt work out, and he qualified for Chetz - and when he went to enlist (remember, this is a kid who would have served anyway) he was slotted into the new charedi Hasmonean brigade, over his loud protestations - to pad the unit, presumably. He is not happy being a political pawn. How long he will last in a unit which forbids smartphones I couldn’t tell you.
Also, friends with sons in Chetz pre war told me the vast majority were absolutely not charedim - but chardal or yeshivish. It’s all a scam. Only time will tell if enough of the Israeli electorate in the future cares enough about this unethical (and frankly immoral) state of affairs to avoid political parties which pander to charedi blackmail.
Thanks fo your input, Liora.
What is your source for "the charedi community costs the rest of Israel tens of billions of shekels annually"?
Have you tried finding a source?
Start with the following:
https://www.calcalist.co.il/local_news/article/bkyruivfo
https://www.maariv.co.il/business/economic/israel/article-1114494
The average Charedi household pays far less, and receives far more.
I'm sure you know how to search for things on the internet. Spend a few minutes and come back with your results.
It's been shown with numbers up thread. Try to keep up. More to the point, would it make a bit of difference to you or the Charedi communities at large if you were forced to admit it? Would you suddenly start to work? Join the Army? Act like citizens with responsibilities to Yisrael? Treat everyone else with respect?
Yes - I see now he is combining the hyperlink from "as well as"which I didn't realize was showing as source for how much chareim cost. My question to you Mr Nuran, is what about my comment makes you assume I disagree with the author? All I did was ask for his source. Yet you insult me by saying try to keep up and then ask me if I would treat everyone else with respect...Your behavior in this post is very much like the chareidi commentators...
Israel govt budget reports. Easily accessible online