Yes, these folks must stop taking money and not balancing the responsibilities of a great country. They must be educated in science and grow up to add rather than detract from the hard work of secular Israelis. Either train for the army or stop taking money from those who earn it in helping Israel become the most amazing country in the world! 💙🤍💪🏻🇮🇱
It isn't necessarily science. There are many good and vital jobs in various sectors of the economy. It is the subsidising of voluntary unemployment that has to stop.
In my readings of the ultra orthodox education, I find that mathematics and science are limited in their higher education. Algebra and biology, chemistry and physics are taught in nonreligious schools not for the explicit knowledge they bring, but the logic, critical thinking and problem solving implicitly learned from these subjects. Logical and critical thinking are so necessary in the 21st century more than ever, and without students spending time on these basic sciences, humans will evolve into sheep… continually falling for disinformation.
Also limited. Although getting better, because girls do not have the son of bittul Toireh. They have no obligation to learn anything in Torah beyond their halachic confines.
And are discouraged when not actively forbidden from pursuing it. And if they do there are all sorts of religious reasons the observant are not supposed to interact with much less listen to them.
Critical thinking is incompatible with unquestionable authority. It is the second greatest threat to everything from MAGATry and doctrinaire Maoism to theocracy. There is a reason why boys in Islamist madrassas and Charedi yeshivot are kept far away from it except in highly constrained, extremely limited areas.
Worldwide the Overton Window has shifted so far Right and propaganda funded by Oligarchs and Right Wing Authoritarians is,so pervasive that a hatred of expertise and facts has become almost the norm.
Left wing doesn’t suppress facts? Only right wing? My father’s post Auschwitz wisdom was that ‘there is no difference between a brown shirt or a red shirt’. (359° is very close to 2°)
They would probably counter that teaching Gemara (like they currently do for men) teaches critical thinking as well as, if not better than, most science and mathematics programs.
It is more than just science. That have to be willing to obey the law, engage in real economic work, be citizens, deal with people outside their sects as human beings with the same rights and worth, and learn things that are uncomfortable. They also have to root out the culture of entitlement and bigotry. It's a talk order, but the survival of Israel, their own subculture, and possibly Judaism requires it
The 'Rak Lo Bibi' camp prefers to die on that hill rather than compromise and pass laws that would make the charedim integrate more into the israeli society.
It goes without saying that budget cuts are coming for all sectors. Who is responsible for the fact that a high proportion of haredi males poorly prepaired for the labor market (often unwilling to enter it) whose families chose to construct their lifestyle around government assistance? Not the secular or traditional Israelis. Not the dati leumi. Choices.
The problem does not seem complicated: chareidi self-segregation in Israel exists because it is subsidized by other Israelis. What is not obvious to me is why Israelis -- assuming a majority are no longer on board with this -- seem incapable of electing politicians who will end these policies.
If Bibi wasn't the machiavellian in that regard, then the Charedim would join the left and get their exemptions and payouts from them.
On the other hand, if the Charedi support for Bibi is genuine and Bibi is not the political genius, then the Charedim would remain with the right and get their exemptions and payouts from them.
I am no expert on Israeli politics, but I would think if Likud remained unresponsive to a large majority of the Israeli public, it would risk a loss of votes in the next election. I would also think Likud would see Israel's negative net migration as a risk to the long-term viability of the State, i.e., irrespective of political machinations, citizens always have the option of casting the ultimate vote with their feet.
Certainly anyone who continues to support Likud in the next election (whenever that is) is welcome to leave their jobs and families and serve in miluim full time so our children can get in with their lives.
After all, if the 66,000 charedim currently evading service aren’t needed, obviously there is no manpower shortage and there is no need for our kids need to serve months every year.
This all will change as soon as they feel things affecting them. Cut government funding and it'll change overnight. Theological talk is a waste of time, someone else can come up with a different theology.
It's easy to live a self-encompassing delusional life as long as it doesn't affect you. Theology always explains after the fact.
Well, being honest, there's a lot of spending cut to be made in all sectors of society, nos just charedim. The argument to be made is to cut the gov. budget in all sectors.
If you only focus on charedim in this respect, it's a bigoted opinion.
Not all spending is equal -- some sectors are more deserving of scrutiny based on their impact and merit.
The Charedi sector disproportionately relies on subsidies or contributes less to the economy, so it’s fair to focus on that without being “bigoted.” Calling it bigotry shuts down the conversation instead of addressing the real issue: whether the spending is justified.
Not every critique needs to include all sectors to be valid
The numbers are very well documented by many gov and nonprofit agencies.
Here's a summary:
Employment Rates: As of 2021, approximately 51% of Haredi men aged 25–64 were employed, significantly lower than the 87% employment rate among other Jewish men in Israel.
Income Levels: In 2018, the average net monthly income for Haredi households was ILS 13,160, compared to ILS 18,603 for non-Haredi Jewish households. Notably, 27% of the Haredi household income came from government transfer payments, whereas such payments constituted only 12% for non-Haredi Jewish households.
Tax Contributions: On average, non-Haredi Jewish households paid ILS 4,371 in direct taxes per month, while Haredi households contributed significantly less, at ILS 1,517.
Poverty Rates: The poverty rate among Haredi families is notably high, with approximately 45% living below the poverty line, compared to 13% among other Jewish families.
The same way the yeshiva students in Shanghai during WWII justified taking funds from both the Aguda fundraising campaigns as well as from the general pool of the Joint. People were freezing and hungry while the yeshiva guys had coats and butter.
Same way the yeshiva guys avoided the draft into the Czar’s army and the rabbis ensured that the children of the poor and of widows were impressed by the Jewish grabbers.
Nothing new here. This is deeply embedded in the Lithuanian, Latvian, Russian yeshiva culture.
Were the grabbers the management level shnorrer's?
I've come to conclude that they are an odd coddled collective and your comment was conclusive furthering my conclusions conclusively 😂
I was shocked a bit as a secular American Zionist Jew with the son in 9th grade yeshiva how anti-zionist the general vibe was, good boys for sure but nowhere near as go team Israel as I would have expected
i looked at the reports. It is scary if nothing changes. The report predicts by 2060 there will be almost 6 million Ultra orthdox. If half are charedi then we will be supporting 3 million people, who are not productive, but live off the rest. Mind boggling!
P.S. Also think of all the people coming to collect for wedding of their kids!
The numbers were revised significantly downward this week, as a study showed that charedi birthrates have dropped significantly. (The average is still six kids.) So they'll "only" be about 20% of the population by then, but that's still way too much for a non-working population.
According to estimates by economist Dan Ben David pre war, the charedi birthrate was at that point 6.5, and by 2050 half of children in the country would be charedi.
I don't remember the exact numbers and I don't care. My point is that it is not so convenient for your purposes to report that, so you (and everyone on your side) leaves it out.
So even ignoring what Charedim would have to say about it and taking your naturalistic perspective I ask you this: If that is your biassed modus operandi, why should your stats be taken seriously, what else are you leaving out?
I didn't speak about women employment because it's not relevant. It's not as though it exceeds female employment in other sectors, and it certainly doesn't balance out male underemployment. So your claim is nonsense.
"Noticeably omitted are employment rates of women."
While that comment is valid, on the other hand, having women working is not sufficient, in my opinion, to counter-argue the point of insufficient employment in the Haredi sector.
In order to make ends meet, the husbands and wives of my four children all work. I don't see how they could manage with only one worker in the family. And they live in the USA. Living in Israel, the cost of living is higher (so I believe); having only one worker in the family simply isn't sufficient to make ends meet. That's the sorry state of the world today.
"on the other hand, having women working is not sufficient, in my opinion, to counter-argue the point of insufficient employment in the Haredi sector.
I did not mean to say that it was, only that it tells a very different story than Slifkin likes to tell - that Charedim are lazy. So he will tell you that they do not work (ignoring the large proportion of working women) and that "so many" people are not really learning (true but grossly exaggerated), etc. etc. He also omits the mesirus nefesh of the Charedim who live at a very low standard of living in order to live up to the value of learning Torah. Many of these people even came from a much higher standard of living in the diaspora and gave that up to spend their time learning Torah - not because they're lazy.
3.
"I don't see how they could manage with only one worker in the family. And they live in the USA. Living in Israel, the cost of living is higher (so I believe); having only one worker in the family simply isn't sufficient to make ends meet."
I used to live there. And I can tell you that either
(A) one does not need as much money to live in Israel (despite the apparent high cost of living)
or
(b) financial miracles in day to day living (sometimes apparent and often hidden) are happening all the time (and not because of dependence on government handouts.
Either way, I can tell you that it is financially easier to live a kollel life on less money here than there.
(BTW, Yeshiva and Cheder and girl's school tuition is far far cheaper here too, and when you have lots of children, that makes a huge difference.)
The enlistment of yeshiva students into the IDF is not only a moral issue but also a significant economic one. Enlisting just 20%-25% of Haredim of draft age could save the Israeli economy over 4.2 billion shekels annually.
[...]
the [current] total estimated cost to the economy, which currently stands at at least 5.8 billion shekels per year
Israel's budget for 2024 was around: NIS 500 billion. Although significant, and assuming those numbers are ok and it should be addressed, I think there are other places where to save/generate money.
What everyone should be asking is to make the army voluntary and better paid. This will end the problem of having to enlist people against their will and will benefit the ones who do want to enlist by paying them a good salary (including giving them conquered places like Gaza, Lebanon and Syria (Jordan soon)). Once the salary of a soldier becomes good enough you'll see the non-learners charedim going in droves.
Other places:
- Health & Education should be privatized
- We shouldn't have so many ministries
- We should allow competition to do its magic in the market.
According to Haviv Rettig Gur in a recent Times of Israel podcast on this subject, the average charedi family takes 3000Nis monthly from the state, whereas the average non charedi family contributes the same amount.
Translated: "We won't changed a thing. You have to sacrifice more." That dog won't hunt. Charedim are already disproportionately the beneficiaries of everyone else's labor and money. They need to shoulder the same burden as everyone else
Whether spending needs to be cut overall, something to leave to actual economists, it is clear that the special privileges the Charedim enjoy need to be slashed. A healthy organism can stand a certain parasite load, but the Charedi lifestyle is arguably the greatest existential threat to Israel. They must join the real world before they put Jewry into another 2000 years of galus
"Whether spending needs to be cut overall, something to leave to actual economists". No, this is settled, it needs to be cut. We can't discuss if the earth is flat all time. We know it is spherical. We know taxes need to be low.
Just fyi, the breathless reports of “charedim are drafting” include those like my nephew, who is chardal, learned at yeshiva gedola and then switched to hesder, but the timing didnt work out, and he qualified for Chetz - and when he went to enlist (remember, this is a kid who would have served anyway) he was slotted into the new charedi Hasmonean brigade, over his loud protestations - to pad the unit, presumably. He is not happy being a political pawn. How long he will last in a unit which forbids smartphones I couldn’t tell you.
Also, friends with sons in Chetz pre war told me the vast majority were absolutely not charedim - but chardal or yeshivish. It’s all a scam. Only time will tell if enough of the Israeli electorate in the future cares enough about this unethical (and frankly immoral) state of affairs to avoid political parties which pander to charedi blackmail.
Update: so far so good! The smartphone hasn’t really been an issue, and he said the other guys are solid. So hoping it works out for him in the long term.
Charedi, noun: a wretched parasite in need of excising, yet buried so deep in the host’s flesh that doing so would be fatal for the host. Utterly uninterested in applying his faculties toward any productive tasks, and content instead to leech money out of his less pious coreligionists’ pockets and convert it into hordes of mewling brats.
Not to be confused with the Israeli, who is by nature hardworking, amiable and witty.
"This needs to happen as soon as possible, before they drag the rest of the country down with them into catastrophe"
You are not really realizing what you are saying. This will drag the county to demise. It wont be long that the chlonim jump on the band wagon and say we are also not going -- for this reason or that . Maybe they will simply say the charedim don't go, I also wont go. Or a Father or Mothers will tell his son or daughter, I am too scared for you to go - don't go.
What Happens then??
A Dati Liumei parents can also say, I have weak nerves and I am too scared for you to go, i will suffer please don't go - let others that don't have such a weak parent go.. How can Israel arrest those and not the charedim?.......All will be lost then.
Army-wise, make the army voluntary, reduce the amount of people doing nothing and pay more to the soldiers.
Politics-wise, stop saying 'Rak Lo Bibi', reach an agreement and cut the subsidies for everyone (including charedim). Once you have this, they will either leave Israel or enter the workforce.
It's as if October 7 never happened to Slifkin. Somehow, he missed the Haredi's record IDF recruitment, and the animosities within Israeli society reduced in the face of the existential threat of the Jihadists.
See:
Israel’s Two Big Lies
Excerpt:
...Haim Ramon, a longtime Labor Party politician...One stat in particular left Ramon feeling dazed: Since Oct. 7, the Knesset revealed, 4,000 young Haredi men showed up of their own volition and asked to volunteer to fight, an initiative that would’ve doubled the number of Haredi soldiers overnight and proven a potential way out of the political impasse.
Unlike Natan Slifkin, who wants to punish the Haredi with economic boycotts, etc., Rabbi Dr. Kenneth Brander, the author of this article, has some positive, cooperative solutions to promote Haredi service to Israeli society.
1% of what everyone else has done. That is not a record you should be proud of. It should mortally shame you. Not merely standing idly by the blood of your neighbor but sneering as you drink it
Record number???? Out of how many potential recruits? 6-700 out of over 66000 and you call that a record? Dear friends of our sat shiva for a kid we watched grow up here in Boca. He left several kids. He needed backup. There was none because they were ‘sitting and learning’.
Just fyi, the breathless reports of “charedim are drafting” include those like my nephew, who is chardal, learned at yeshiva gedola and then switched to hesder, but the timing didnt work out, and he qualified for Chetz - and when he went to enlist (remember, this is a kid who would have served anyway) he was slotted into the new charedi Hasmonean brigade, over his loud protestations - to pad the unit, presumably. He is not happy being a political pawn. How long he will last in a unit which forbids smartphones I couldn’t tell you.
Also, friends with sons in Chetz pre war told me the vast majority were absolutely not charedim - but chardal or yeshivish. It’s all a scam. Only time will tell if enough of the Israeli electorate in the future cares enough about this unethical (and frankly immoral) state of affairs to avoid political parties which pander to charedi blackmail.
It's been shown with numbers up thread. Try to keep up. More to the point, would it make a bit of difference to you or the Charedi communities at large if you were forced to admit it? Would you suddenly start to work? Join the Army? Act like citizens with responsibilities to Yisrael? Treat everyone else with respect?
Yes - I see now he is combining the hyperlink from "as well as"which I didn't realize was showing as source for how much chareim cost. My question to you Mr Nuran, is what about my comment makes you assume I disagree with the author? All I did was ask for his source. Yet you insult me by saying try to keep up and then ask me if I would treat everyone else with respect...Your behavior in this post is very much like the chareidi commentators...
Yes, these folks must stop taking money and not balancing the responsibilities of a great country. They must be educated in science and grow up to add rather than detract from the hard work of secular Israelis. Either train for the army or stop taking money from those who earn it in helping Israel become the most amazing country in the world! 💙🤍💪🏻🇮🇱
It isn't necessarily science. There are many good and vital jobs in various sectors of the economy. It is the subsidising of voluntary unemployment that has to stop.
In my readings of the ultra orthodox education, I find that mathematics and science are limited in their higher education. Algebra and biology, chemistry and physics are taught in nonreligious schools not for the explicit knowledge they bring, but the logic, critical thinking and problem solving implicitly learned from these subjects. Logical and critical thinking are so necessary in the 21st century more than ever, and without students spending time on these basic sciences, humans will evolve into sheep… continually falling for disinformation.
The ultra-orthodox girls' schools teach science and mathematics.
Barely up to modern standards
Also limited. Although getting better, because girls do not have the son of bittul Toireh. They have no obligation to learn anything in Torah beyond their halachic confines.
And I am betting it's learning a bunch of facts. The essence of science is corrosive to blind obedience and limits on what can be thought.
And are discouraged when not actively forbidden from pursuing it. And if they do there are all sorts of religious reasons the observant are not supposed to interact with much less listen to them.
Critical thinking is incompatible with unquestionable authority. It is the second greatest threat to everything from MAGATry and doctrinaire Maoism to theocracy. There is a reason why boys in Islamist madrassas and Charedi yeshivot are kept far away from it except in highly constrained, extremely limited areas.
Extremism in most everything is unwise. You will find irrationality in both extreme MAGA and TDS.
Worldwide the Overton Window has shifted so far Right and propaganda funded by Oligarchs and Right Wing Authoritarians is,so pervasive that a hatred of expertise and facts has become almost the norm.
Left wing doesn’t suppress facts? Only right wing? My father’s post Auschwitz wisdom was that ‘there is no difference between a brown shirt or a red shirt’. (359° is very close to 2°)
They would probably counter that teaching Gemara (like they currently do for men) teaches critical thinking as well as, if not better than, most science and mathematics programs.
It is more than just science. That have to be willing to obey the law, engage in real economic work, be citizens, deal with people outside their sects as human beings with the same rights and worth, and learn things that are uncomfortable. They also have to root out the culture of entitlement and bigotry. It's a talk order, but the survival of Israel, their own subculture, and possibly Judaism requires it
70% of the country are Zionist and agree on the major issues. The only reason that 70% is not the government is Bibi.
Or their own hatred of Bibi. Let's be realistic here.
Such a sectarian view.
The 'Rak Lo Bibi' camp prefers to die on that hill rather than compromise and pass laws that would make the charedim integrate more into the israeli society.
It goes without saying that budget cuts are coming for all sectors. Who is responsible for the fact that a high proportion of haredi males poorly prepaired for the labor market (often unwilling to enter it) whose families chose to construct their lifestyle around government assistance? Not the secular or traditional Israelis. Not the dati leumi. Choices.
The problem does not seem complicated: chareidi self-segregation in Israel exists because it is subsidized by other Israelis. What is not obvious to me is why Israelis -- assuming a majority are no longer on board with this -- seem incapable of electing politicians who will end these policies.
Because Bibi is a genius at splitting the nation and using charedi political support to remain in power.
Or because Bibi has genuine support and the charedi support, for better or for worse (for worse, really) happens to come with that.
Being cynical *all* the time is not a good look; nor is calling for an end to democracy.
I'm not whether the debate is relevant.
If Bibi wasn't the machiavellian in that regard, then the Charedim would join the left and get their exemptions and payouts from them.
On the other hand, if the Charedi support for Bibi is genuine and Bibi is not the political genius, then the Charedim would remain with the right and get their exemptions and payouts from them.
Well stated, sir!
I am no expert on Israeli politics, but I would think if Likud remained unresponsive to a large majority of the Israeli public, it would risk a loss of votes in the next election. I would also think Likud would see Israel's negative net migration as a risk to the long-term viability of the State, i.e., irrespective of political machinations, citizens always have the option of casting the ultimate vote with their feet.
Welcome to the world of coalition governments, voting for slates, and all the rest.
Certainly anyone who continues to support Likud in the next election (whenever that is) is welcome to leave their jobs and families and serve in miluim full time so our children can get in with their lives.
After all, if the 66,000 charedim currently evading service aren’t needed, obviously there is no manpower shortage and there is no need for our kids need to serve months every year.
I guess we are all a bit irrational sometimes.
Which politicians? Who would you vote for?
This all will change as soon as they feel things affecting them. Cut government funding and it'll change overnight. Theological talk is a waste of time, someone else can come up with a different theology.
It's easy to live a self-encompassing delusional life as long as it doesn't affect you. Theology always explains after the fact.
Well, being honest, there's a lot of spending cut to be made in all sectors of society, nos just charedim. The argument to be made is to cut the gov. budget in all sectors.
If you only focus on charedim in this respect, it's a bigoted opinion.
Not all spending is equal -- some sectors are more deserving of scrutiny based on their impact and merit.
The Charedi sector disproportionately relies on subsidies or contributes less to the economy, so it’s fair to focus on that without being “bigoted.” Calling it bigotry shuts down the conversation instead of addressing the real issue: whether the spending is justified.
Not every critique needs to include all sectors to be valid
Do you have numbers?
The numbers are very well documented by many gov and nonprofit agencies.
Here's a summary:
Employment Rates: As of 2021, approximately 51% of Haredi men aged 25–64 were employed, significantly lower than the 87% employment rate among other Jewish men in Israel.
Income Levels: In 2018, the average net monthly income for Haredi households was ILS 13,160, compared to ILS 18,603 for non-Haredi Jewish households. Notably, 27% of the Haredi household income came from government transfer payments, whereas such payments constituted only 12% for non-Haredi Jewish households.
Tax Contributions: On average, non-Haredi Jewish households paid ILS 4,371 in direct taxes per month, while Haredi households contributed significantly less, at ILS 1,517.
Poverty Rates: The poverty rate among Haredi families is notably high, with approximately 45% living below the poverty line, compared to 13% among other Jewish families.
Sources:
https://en.idi.org.il/media/20567/annual-statistical-report-on-ultra-orthodox-haredi-society-in-israel-2022-executive-summary.pdf
https://iyun.org.il/en/sedersheni/the-charedi-economy-conundrum/
that is awful. How can this 'derech' be justified?
The same way the yeshiva students in Shanghai during WWII justified taking funds from both the Aguda fundraising campaigns as well as from the general pool of the Joint. People were freezing and hungry while the yeshiva guys had coats and butter.
Same way the yeshiva guys avoided the draft into the Czar’s army and the rabbis ensured that the children of the poor and of widows were impressed by the Jewish grabbers.
Nothing new here. This is deeply embedded in the Lithuanian, Latvian, Russian yeshiva culture.
Were the grabbers the management level shnorrer's?
I've come to conclude that they are an odd coddled collective and your comment was conclusive furthering my conclusions conclusively 😂
I was shocked a bit as a secular American Zionist Jew with the son in 9th grade yeshiva how anti-zionist the general vibe was, good boys for sure but nowhere near as go team Israel as I would have expected
They also cut off a finger to avoid being drafted into the czar's army. (No joke.)
i looked at the reports. It is scary if nothing changes. The report predicts by 2060 there will be almost 6 million Ultra orthdox. If half are charedi then we will be supporting 3 million people, who are not productive, but live off the rest. Mind boggling!
P.S. Also think of all the people coming to collect for wedding of their kids!
The numbers were revised significantly downward this week, as a study showed that charedi birthrates have dropped significantly. (The average is still six kids.) So they'll "only" be about 20% of the population by then, but that's still way too much for a non-working population.
According to estimates by economist Dan Ben David pre war, the charedi birthrate was at that point 6.5, and by 2050 half of children in the country would be charedi.
Wow. And thanks
Noticeably omitted are employment rates of women.
I don't remember the exact numbers and I don't care. My point is that it is not so convenient for your purposes to report that, so you (and everyone on your side) leaves it out.
So even ignoring what Charedim would have to say about it and taking your naturalistic perspective I ask you this: If that is your biassed modus operandi, why should your stats be taken seriously, what else are you leaving out?
I didn't speak about women employment because it's not relevant. It's not as though it exceeds female employment in other sectors, and it certainly doesn't balance out male underemployment. So your claim is nonsense.
I was actually responding to Ezra Brand's comment. But I guess it applies to you too.
It may not exceed female employment in other sectors, but it does a certain significant amount of balancing that you would prefer to hide.
I wasn't going to repeat this again on this post, but since you addressed me:
"if the charedi community had any leadership with wisdom and responsibility"
See Sanhedrin 99b:
אפיקורוס. אמר רב יוסף כגון הני דאמרי מאי אהנו לן רבנן? לדידהו קרו לדידהו תנו
What do the Rabbanan help us. They learn for their own sake. They teach for their own sake.
"Noticeably omitted are employment rates of women."
While that comment is valid, on the other hand, having women working is not sufficient, in my opinion, to counter-argue the point of insufficient employment in the Haredi sector.
In order to make ends meet, the husbands and wives of my four children all work. I don't see how they could manage with only one worker in the family. And they live in the USA. Living in Israel, the cost of living is higher (so I believe); having only one worker in the family simply isn't sufficient to make ends meet. That's the sorry state of the world today.
1.
"While that comment is valid,..."
Thank you .
2.
"on the other hand, having women working is not sufficient, in my opinion, to counter-argue the point of insufficient employment in the Haredi sector.
I did not mean to say that it was, only that it tells a very different story than Slifkin likes to tell - that Charedim are lazy. So he will tell you that they do not work (ignoring the large proportion of working women) and that "so many" people are not really learning (true but grossly exaggerated), etc. etc. He also omits the mesirus nefesh of the Charedim who live at a very low standard of living in order to live up to the value of learning Torah. Many of these people even came from a much higher standard of living in the diaspora and gave that up to spend their time learning Torah - not because they're lazy.
3.
"I don't see how they could manage with only one worker in the family. And they live in the USA. Living in Israel, the cost of living is higher (so I believe); having only one worker in the family simply isn't sufficient to make ends meet."
I used to live there. And I can tell you that either
(A) one does not need as much money to live in Israel (despite the apparent high cost of living)
or
(b) financial miracles in day to day living (sometimes apparent and often hidden) are happening all the time (and not because of dependence on government handouts.
Either way, I can tell you that it is financially easier to live a kollel life on less money here than there.
(BTW, Yeshiva and Cheder and girl's school tuition is far far cheaper here too, and when you have lots of children, that makes a huge difference.)
I meant global numbers, how much does the Charedi budget represent?
Here's some recent numbers I found, regarding just the cost of reserve duty, my translations from the Hebrew:
Without drafting Haredim, the damage from the Reserve Duty Law: approximately 6 billion shekels per year.
https://www.themarker.com/news/politics/2024-03-18/ty-article/.premium/0000018e-4cb2-d7ea-a5de-7cb75a3d0000
The enlistment of yeshiva students into the IDF is not only a moral issue but also a significant economic one. Enlisting just 20%-25% of Haredim of draft age could save the Israeli economy over 4.2 billion shekels annually.
[...]
the [current] total estimated cost to the economy, which currently stands at at least 5.8 billion shekels per year
https://www.israelhofsheet.org.il/2024/03/25/%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%97%D7%99%D7%A8-%D7%94%D7%9B%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%9C%D7%99-%D7%A9%D7%A0%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%9D-%D7%A2%D7%9C-%D7%90%D7%99-%D7%92%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A1-%D7%91%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%94%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%91/
Israel's budget for 2024 was around: NIS 500 billion. Although significant, and assuming those numbers are ok and it should be addressed, I think there are other places where to save/generate money.
What everyone should be asking is to make the army voluntary and better paid. This will end the problem of having to enlist people against their will and will benefit the ones who do want to enlist by paying them a good salary (including giving them conquered places like Gaza, Lebanon and Syria (Jordan soon)). Once the salary of a soldier becomes good enough you'll see the non-learners charedim going in droves.
Other places:
- Health & Education should be privatized
- We shouldn't have so many ministries
- We should allow competition to do its magic in the market.
Post the results of what your research concluded when you get a chance, all of this is easily answerable probably on the device that you are holding
According to Haviv Rettig Gur in a recent Times of Israel podcast on this subject, the average charedi family takes 3000Nis monthly from the state, whereas the average non charedi family contributes the same amount.
היי
Translated: "We won't changed a thing. You have to sacrifice more." That dog won't hunt. Charedim are already disproportionately the beneficiaries of everyone else's labor and money. They need to shoulder the same burden as everyone else
The argument should be to cut spending, not make everyone else pay more.
Unless you're socialist, in that case you would make that argument.
Whether spending needs to be cut overall, something to leave to actual economists, it is clear that the special privileges the Charedim enjoy need to be slashed. A healthy organism can stand a certain parasite load, but the Charedi lifestyle is arguably the greatest existential threat to Israel. They must join the real world before they put Jewry into another 2000 years of galus
"Whether spending needs to be cut overall, something to leave to actual economists". No, this is settled, it needs to be cut. We can't discuss if the earth is flat all time. We know it is spherical. We know taxes need to be low.
Just fyi, the breathless reports of “charedim are drafting” include those like my nephew, who is chardal, learned at yeshiva gedola and then switched to hesder, but the timing didnt work out, and he qualified for Chetz - and when he went to enlist (remember, this is a kid who would have served anyway) he was slotted into the new charedi Hasmonean brigade, over his loud protestations - to pad the unit, presumably. He is not happy being a political pawn. How long he will last in a unit which forbids smartphones I couldn’t tell you.
Also, friends with sons in Chetz pre war told me the vast majority were absolutely not charedim - but chardal or yeshivish. It’s all a scam. Only time will tell if enough of the Israeli electorate in the future cares enough about this unethical (and frankly immoral) state of affairs to avoid political parties which pander to charedi blackmail.
Update: so far so good! The smartphone hasn’t really been an issue, and he said the other guys are solid. So hoping it works out for him in the long term.
Charedi, noun: a wretched parasite in need of excising, yet buried so deep in the host’s flesh that doing so would be fatal for the host. Utterly uninterested in applying his faculties toward any productive tasks, and content instead to leech money out of his less pious coreligionists’ pockets and convert it into hordes of mewling brats.
Not to be confused with the Israeli, who is by nature hardworking, amiable and witty.
"This needs to happen as soon as possible, before they drag the rest of the country down with them into catastrophe"
You are not really realizing what you are saying. This will drag the county to demise. It wont be long that the chlonim jump on the band wagon and say we are also not going -- for this reason or that . Maybe they will simply say the charedim don't go, I also wont go. Or a Father or Mothers will tell his son or daughter, I am too scared for you to go - don't go.
What Happens then??
A Dati Liumei parents can also say, I have weak nerves and I am too scared for you to go, i will suffer please don't go - let others that don't have such a weak parent go.. How can Israel arrest those and not the charedim?.......All will be lost then.
Not sure why you think I don't realize all that.
It's very simple actually.
Army-wise, make the army voluntary, reduce the amount of people doing nothing and pay more to the soldiers.
Politics-wise, stop saying 'Rak Lo Bibi', reach an agreement and cut the subsidies for everyone (including charedim). Once you have this, they will either leave Israel or enter the workforce.
It's as if October 7 never happened to Slifkin. Somehow, he missed the Haredi's record IDF recruitment, and the animosities within Israeli society reduced in the face of the existential threat of the Jihadists.
See:
Israel’s Two Big Lies
Excerpt:
...Haim Ramon, a longtime Labor Party politician...One stat in particular left Ramon feeling dazed: Since Oct. 7, the Knesset revealed, 4,000 young Haredi men showed up of their own volition and asked to volunteer to fight, an initiative that would’ve doubled the number of Haredi soldiers overnight and proven a potential way out of the political impasse.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-two-big-lies
Haredi police officer serves in honor of her slain husband
Eliyahu Harush was one of 20 police officers who died fighting Hamas terrorists in Sderot on Oct. 7.
https://www.jns.org/haredi-police-officer-serves-in-honor-of-her-slain-husband/?_sc=NTAyMDI0NiMzNTIzMg%3D%3D&utm_campaign=Oct+7+Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=brevo
The haredi draft is everyone’s challenge
Unlike Natan Slifkin, who wants to punish the Haredi with economic boycotts, etc., Rabbi Dr. Kenneth Brander, the author of this article, has some positive, cooperative solutions to promote Haredi service to Israeli society.
https://www.jns.org/the-haredi-draft-is-everyones-challenge/?_sc=NTAyMDI0NiMzNTIzMg%3D%3D&utm_campaign=Evening+Syndicate+Sunday+7212024&utm_medium=email&utm_source=brevo
There was no amazing charedi recruitment after Oct 7, and no creation of achdus. The Tablet article was false.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/if-only-it-were-a-lie
Thanks for your input, Natan.
1% of what everyone else has done. That is not a record you should be proud of. It should mortally shame you. Not merely standing idly by the blood of your neighbor but sneering as you drink it
Thanks for your input.
Record number???? Out of how many potential recruits? 6-700 out of over 66000 and you call that a record? Dear friends of our sat shiva for a kid we watched grow up here in Boca. He left several kids. He needed backup. There was none because they were ‘sitting and learning’.
Thanks for your input, Harold.
"Anecdote" is not the same as "data".
Thanks for your input, Nachum.
Just fyi, the breathless reports of “charedim are drafting” include those like my nephew, who is chardal, learned at yeshiva gedola and then switched to hesder, but the timing didnt work out, and he qualified for Chetz - and when he went to enlist (remember, this is a kid who would have served anyway) he was slotted into the new charedi Hasmonean brigade, over his loud protestations - to pad the unit, presumably. He is not happy being a political pawn. How long he will last in a unit which forbids smartphones I couldn’t tell you.
Also, friends with sons in Chetz pre war told me the vast majority were absolutely not charedim - but chardal or yeshivish. It’s all a scam. Only time will tell if enough of the Israeli electorate in the future cares enough about this unethical (and frankly immoral) state of affairs to avoid political parties which pander to charedi blackmail.
Thanks fo your input, Liora.
What is your source for "the charedi community costs the rest of Israel tens of billions of shekels annually"?
Have you tried finding a source?
Start with the following:
https://www.calcalist.co.il/local_news/article/bkyruivfo
https://www.maariv.co.il/business/economic/israel/article-1114494
The average Charedi household pays far less, and receives far more.
I'm sure you know how to search for things on the internet. Spend a few minutes and come back with your results.
It's been shown with numbers up thread. Try to keep up. More to the point, would it make a bit of difference to you or the Charedi communities at large if you were forced to admit it? Would you suddenly start to work? Join the Army? Act like citizens with responsibilities to Yisrael? Treat everyone else with respect?
Yes - I see now he is combining the hyperlink from "as well as"which I didn't realize was showing as source for how much chareim cost. My question to you Mr Nuran, is what about my comment makes you assume I disagree with the author? All I did was ask for his source. Yet you insult me by saying try to keep up and then ask me if I would treat everyone else with respect...Your behavior in this post is very much like the chareidi commentators...
Israel govt budget reports. Easily accessible online