Tuesday, January 19, 2021

The Chassidic Wedding Murders

What a wedding!

Yes, the enormous Bobov murder wedding took place last night in New York - the one that they pretended would not be taking place. They managed to conceal the illegal event from the police. Hooray!

Many thousands of guests were present, including people from Israel and London. While other people all around the world are limiting their events and mourning their losses, there was no indication at this wedding that anything is wrong in the world. Everyone was singing and dancing, and, of course, nobody was wearing masks; after all, masks are for goyim. These are holy people, who won't eat fish together with meat due to the danger, and won't hold weddings during Sefiras Ha'Omer because of a plague thousands of years ago!

With the festivities over, the guests will be returning to their homes around the world, presumably not quarantining (since laws are for goyim), and spreading all the Covid variants that they picked up at the wedding. This in turn will spread sickness, death, and economic hardship. Ah, what a zechus!

A number of people complained about my previous post, in which I protested this event. Some said that I shouldn't be criticizing the chassidim when there are so many others who flout the restrictions. There are several important responses to be made to this.

First is that, as I wrote yesterday but they apparently ignored, the wedding was many orders of magnitude more dangerous than all the other restriction-flouting activities. The cumulative effect of crowding thousands of people, including guests from abroad, indoors, maskless, while singing, is vastly more dangerous than anything else. Other events may or may not transfer the virus; this event is guaranteed to.

Second is that other situations of rule-flouting are done by individuals making decisions out of personal desire. This, on the other hand, was a community event, directed by community rabbinic leaders. They formally arranged this lethal, illegal event, along with the lies to cover it up. The only people who can't see a world of difference between the two are the sort of extreme tribalists who likewise can't (or won't) see a difference between random hoodlums looting during a BLM protest and a president inciting an insurrection.

Another type of counter-claim was that the chassidim are all immune anyway, since they've been crowding together all year and they've all already had Covid. But this is simply not true. Not every Bobover chassid has had Covid - yet every chassid felt pressured to come. And the new strains of Covid are much more contagious and could infect even those who had the original strain many months ago (which is exactly what happened in Stamford Hill, London, where the chassidic community believed themselves to have formed herd immunity, and then recently suffered many casualties). And the presence of international guests means that the new strains of Covid get spread to different countries and communities. Furthermore, the statistics from Israel are very clear: the sickness and mortality rate in the charedi communities is many times higher than in the rest of the country (in comparable age groups). Finally, it's just absurd to justify such a decision being made without the input of medical professionals. And it doesn't address the chillul Hashem aspect, nor the illegality and lying involved.

There are those who object to others making a fuss about what chassidim do. Dudi Zilbershlag, a prominent chassidic media personality in Israel, said that everyone should keep the rules, but nobody should make a fuss about others who break them. This is an exceptionally strange argument. Without even getting onto the notion of Kol Yisrael areivim zeh lazeh, there is simple self-interest involved. This is not 19th century Europe; the chassidim do not live in a bubble. Most of us have been very severely affected by the pandemic, in one way or another. Of course we are upset and angry when a major chassidic sect defiantly holds a super-spreader event which will have enormous ramifications on our own lives!

Astonishingly, one person wrote to me that by bringing attention to such a wedding, I am inciting antisemitism and strengthening myths about Jews spreading plague. As I replied to him, if he's concerned about inciting antisemitism, he should be trying to stop Jews spreading plague at weddings, not the people trying to prevent such crimes.

Some felt that "murder" was too strong a term. I've stated my opposition to referring to anti-vaxxers as murderers. But in this case, where death is a very likely result of such an event, I believe that it is an appropriate term. And I'm not the only person to feel that way - there are prominent people in the charedi world saying the same. Avi Mimron, lead broadcaster on the Bnei Brak radio station Kol Chai, just gave a fiery tirade about how charedim who disregard the risks are "murderers who should flee to Arei Miklat." Yehuda Meshi-Zahav, the famous charedi former anti-Zionist militant turned national hero, recently suffered the loss of his mother to Covid. In a blistering condemnation of certain elements of the charedi rabbinic leadership, he referred to them as being guilty of bloodshed.

Bobov are not the only chassid sects holding crowded weddings. Another one took place in Bnei Brak this week. Here's a riddle: What do you call an Israeli policeman who tries to save lives by breaking up a dangerous crowded Chassidic wedding? Answer: A Nazi!

So, bottom line, what do we do about all the communities which simply couldn't care less about how their actions perpetuate the pandemic? Especially since, from their perspective, they are being moser nefesh to defend their precious, fragile way of life from threats by the virus and by the goyim. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I suspect that, as usual, the only direct path to influence is via the money.

 

In the next post, I shall address a very important and obvious question about this event that hardly anyone is asking. If you'd like to subscribe to this blog via email, use the form on the right of the page, or send me an email and I will add you.

 

58 comments:

  1. Reading this article in essence you are not wrong but what seems very obvious is that your hate of chassidim came regardless of whether they're flouting the rules or not.

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    1. Fascinating. So everything that I write is true, but only someone who hates chassidim would write such truths?

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    2. While we shouldnt hate anyone there is some justification for tremendous dislike for people who claim to be the guardians of Torah but violate the Torah with tremendous chillul Hashem. The fact that you arent disgusted by the constant sickening behavior of chassidim shows that either you dont really believe what they are doing is wrong which shows that you dont really understand the concept of chilul Hashem, neshmartem es nofshoseychem, sakana nefashos etc or you think that chareidim / chassidim truly know better than the rest of the world. 

      When it comes to zionism, tzniyus, and chillul Shabbos the chareidim are ready to take to the streets to fight. But when it comes to actually sakanas nifashos not only do they not fight against it they encourage and reward the bad behavior that leads to more deaths. 

      שקשה עליהם טהרת כלים יותר משפיכות דמים

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    3. "While we shouldn't hate anyone there is some justification for tremendous dislike for very bad people"

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  2. What a bizarre, childish cult.
    When the Artscroll "historians" kvetch about anti Semitism in America 100 years from now, I hope they keep this in mind.

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  3. Marcel, who hates who? Why do Haredim insist on flouting the restrictions? I suggest you listen to Yehuda Meshi-Zahav sitting Shiva for his mother, killed by the Corona which she got from a family member at Chanukah. https://twitter.com/Democrat_TV/status/1351581783280807937 and here: https://twitter.com/klaiman14/status/1351591430377136139

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    1. Hi Winkie. Fancy running into you here!! (Your Eli Betarit friend..)

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  4. Your claim about the new strain strains your credibility.

    As far as I have read, re-infection is extremely rare, even between strains. Those who caught the virus last April are not getting infected now, even from the new strain.

    That does not affect the rest of your post.

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    1. @ZD, I read that those who were infected in April are getting re-infected and suffering worse than they did in April.

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    2. Do you have a link? Because at the beginning re-infection was a fear, and any suspicion was widely reported, and now we are not hearing about re-infection at all.
      I am not talking about long covid, which is something else.

      Put it this way. Virtually all of my friends and acquaintances were sick at the end of March and the beginning of April. Those who tested for anti-bodies tested positive. None of them got sick again, after months of 'normal life'.

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    3. Reinfection is rare, but that does not mean it doesn't happen. As time passes from the point that a person was infected, reinfection becomes less and less rare. It's called "breakthrough infection." Hopefully a good portion of people will have much longer-term protective immunity, but WE DON'T KNOW this equation yet for this virus. It's rather mindboggling that chassidim believe they can "Decide" the characteristics of this pathogen and just assume breakthrough infections will never become a widespread phenomenon. In east coast cities that were hit early, many months have passed since then, and it is happening to people now who had the virus then. To what extent, at what percentages, to what degree of greater (or lesser) severity NO ONE has characterized and no one understands yet. But chassidim have decided, and that's that.

      And btw none of that requires a new strain. I'm just talking the same run of the mill virus that started at the end of 2019. The new strains may impact the phenomenon or may not.

      One thing we do know is that every seroprevalence study (antibody surveillance) after the March outbreak consistently showed LOW levels of community protection with only about 30% having been infected in the worst hotspots (and even lower in areas not hit as hard). The idea that "We all got it already" is a complete lie and a delusional farce that is completely disproven by all facts available to us.

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    4. @ZD and Student, Possible. I have heard that those infected in the spring became re-infected in the fall. I heard that re-infection was possibly worse.

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    5. Student v - it is not just rare, it is extremely rare. When a couple of cases happened, they were trumped all over the news. And then they weren't any more. If it was happening in any significant amounts, we would hear about it. So if someone had a positive test, or clear unambiguous symptoms, and then has a positive test for antibodies, there is no credible reason for them to be careful any more. It just makes no sense.

      If you have a link showing that the threat of reinfection is serious and rampant, please post it. Because I haven't found one. I may change my mind and behavior if I see a reason to.

      I read an interview with a member of the Federal response team, in which the person was asked about people with antibodies. The answer was, "as a matter of public policy, we couldn't give antibody passports, because that would just encourage covid parties". Meaning, the science is sound, but we cannot encourage it. Which makes sense. But a person who has tested positive for antibodies who goes to a chasuna or to Shul, is not a rodef, murderer, or any other perjorative.

      I don't know about the community in Bobov, but I hardly think there are any studies of individual Charedi communities. If Bobov, or any other Chassidus, had mass testing for antibodies, and found a significantly high percentage of positives, your study wouldn't disprove that.

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    6. @Zd, That is interesting because I thought people who were infected could get re-infected and possibly feel worse. From WebMD, I trust them, "If you get infected, it’s almost certain that you will have some immunity to coronavirus... However, it’s likely that the immunity will... wax and wane with time. Because of this, you’ll likely be susceptible to a future, but milder form of COVID-19 respiratory illness."

      Link: https://www.webmd.com/lung/qa/can-you-be-reinfected-if-you-have-already-had-the-coronavirus

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    7. Here's a link claiming that more ppl are getting covid twice: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/more-people-are-getting-covid-19-twice-suggesting-immunity-wanes-quickly-some

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  5. Love when people quote the lying propaganda bent media as an authoritative source....

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  6. Love when people quote the lying propaganda bent media as an authoritative source of information.....

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  7. "The only people who can't see a world of difference between the two are the sort of extreme tribalists who likewise can't (or won't) see a difference between random hoodlums looting during a BLM protest and a president inciting an insurrection."

    I agree that the BLM riots were bad. It's debated whether the capitol riots were an "insurrection." It is possible that the Dems planned this to happen just as Hitler planned the burning of the Reichstag and blamed it on Jews and communists. Furthermore, the protestors didn't act like violent insurrectionists. they calmly, casually walked through the halls of the Capitol building like tourists. Lastly, the buffalo head, barbarian man is a well-known antifa guy. The storming seems like a setup.

    Whether or not it was a setup or insurrection, we could blame Trump for raising the temperature to boiling point but we can't (and shouldn't) blame him for inciting insurrection.

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    1. The Capitol insurrection as an Antifa false flag? Straight out of JAnon.

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    2. An antifa with an antisemitic Wotanist tatoo on the chest? Maybe do your homework a little.

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    3. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jan/07/facebook-posts/face-painted-man-horned-fur-cap-capitol-riot-suppo/

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    4. @Naftush and Jew Well. Actually, antifa stormed the capitol, not conservatives. That guy with the buffalo head, the barbarian, he's a well-known antifa guy. Most of them were antifa but not all of them. The whole thing was a setup. Conservatives wouldn’t attack cops. Meanwhile, six months of riots. I don't think they were conservatives.

      Today is a sad day for America. The biden regime is here. They just stool the election. There were most certainly huge massive amounts of fraud. There is a lot of evidence. I believe there was a lot of fraud. Trump won the night and then, all of the sudden he loses? G-d bless America because we're going to need it.

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    5. Also, I have hard clams (and seen pictures) of nazis in the capital crowd who rioted the capitol. It's important to remember that they could be anyone. Just because they're in a conservative crowd does not mean conservatives support their views. A couple of years ago, there was a KKK man in a Trump rally.[1] Trump coldly stared him down till the police removed him. Trump condemned this man. See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1evyptWWgDE&ab_channel=CNN

      Racist Nazis do not represent conservatives. Do you know who they do represent? The Left. Because the word socialism is in the name Nazi. So they might as well be antifa. Paradox? Contradiction? Nope. Not in the slightest. As Winston Churchill said: "The fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists."

      [1] The KKK was founded by Dems.

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    6. Most people are unaware that the word word socialism is in the name Nazi. The National Socialist German Workers' Party. That's the full name, and the word "socialism" is in it. The Left are Socialist. They're communists. They're literally nazis. They're the exact thing they hate the most. I've been saying it for a long time but I'll keep saying it. They're going to start burning books and then we make full circle.

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    7. Sigh. @Turk Hill I'm starting to think you're beyond hope. Strange thing to find an actually rationalist religious jew who so uncritically swallows everything he's fed by professional political liers, just because it fits with his ideology.
      But I'll try: this guy was clearly a QAnon follower, not antifa. There really was a guy identified as antifa who's been identified, John Earle Sullivan, but at the same time there were dozens of QAnon followers, Tea Party adherents, known neo-nazis and white supremacists and so on. The fact that you believe Trump won the election doesn't make it so.
      Even if Trump doesn't support the KKK, they sure as hell support him. They do not represent all conservatives, but they exist in the conservative sphere. The fact that KKK was founded 150 years ago by democrats doesn't say anything about who they support today, as the two parties have radically evolved since then. Same about nazis. Just because nazis believed they were being ''socialist'' doesn't mean they had anything to do with actual socialism, just like the only ''democratic'' thing in the Democratic Republic of Germany was its name. Go and ask any neo-nazi activist what he wants and I'll give you a million dollars if he says ''socialism''.

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    8. @Jew Well, But neo-nazis do want socialism. And yes, KKK was founded by Dems. It was the radical Republicans who ended slavery, preserved the Union, led Reconstruction, overrode vetoes of President Andrew Johnson on the Civil Rights Act, and supported the Civil Rights movement, while the Dems were against Civil Rights. More important, Hollywood has convinced the public that they care for blacks when in reality, just fifty years earlier, they were against the Civil Rights movement. If they really cared for black communities, why didn't they do anything about it then?

      And your conflating European standards with American standards. By American standards, fascism is closer to communism. Since the right in Europe supports big government, and since fascism relied on big government over all aspects of life, from nationalized healthcare to government overseeing industry, which is abhorrent to small government, free-market capitalism, we would describe them as a left-wing group. You would be deeply mistaken to equate nazism with the American right since we are for small government. Whether neo-nazis or kkk support Trump in any way, shape, or form is irrelevant as they belong with the BLM and antifa activists, not with true patriots.

      PS I would like to think I am a conservative because I am a rational person. Most religious Jews are conservative while most atheist Jews accept liberal policies. See Ben Shapiro's explanation here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5IqH7oJ9h4&ab_channel=TruthRevoltOriginals

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  8. I am all for having weddings. I think people need joy in their lives, especially during these dark times. But I am against groups huddled together inside. There could be a potential problem here.

    The person who wrote to you about inciting antisemitism is karma for saying as much about Trump inciting insurrection. Joking aside, and on a more serious note, "Jews spreading plague," and other anti-Semitism nonsense is what RNS is trying to prevent by bringing the event to our attention. For example, in 1817 there was an outbreak in India of cholera. A second flare-up happened in 1831 and attacked Europe. A great rabbi, Rabbi Akiba Eiger (1761-1837) advocated for and established social-distances guidelines for his shul. He was ahead of his time. He saved many lives. Why do so many non-Jewish governments not adopt his approach today? Why didn't the chassidim adopt his methods? Why didn't Mayor Bill de Blasio and Governor Cuomo’s restrictions made it possible for police to promote social-distances guidelines instead of dispersing sukkahs in New York City? I think it was because he was Jewish.

    Similarly, many Jews wash their hands in the morning and before eating. Non-Jews did not practice hygiene. For example, when the Spanish came to America the native inhabitants were shocked by their smell. Similarly, many blacks were shocked by the stench of European slave traders. Both blacks and Aztec peoples practiced safe hygiene and regularly washed while Europeans would sometimes bathe once in several years during the middle ages! It was called the "Dark ages" for a reason. Despite that, Jews always kept clean and this showed when during the Black Plague (1347-1351), 200 million people died, many Jews were spared. The daily washing is attributed to protecting Jews from bacteria and this saved many Jewish lives. But there was one problem. Instead of copying the procedure, many non-Jews accused Jews of poising the wells and interpreted the fewer deaths of Jews to mean that Jews must have caused the Black Plague. This led to anti-Semitism. Pandemics can harm Jews in other ways than anti-Semitism but it can be the cause of it.

    Thus, RNS is helping to prevent anti-Semitism. They should have held the wedding outside where they could practice safe social-distances guidelines as Rabbi Akiba Eiger recommended 200 years ago.

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    1. TH,
      I've heard these claims concerning the plague for decades. Given that there's a lot of info that's been lost to history, do we actually know that Jews were less effected? (Consider that biting fleas were a major vector- does bathing prevent flea bites?)

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    2. @Ephraim, I' don't know, but it seems that most Jews were spared from the plagues. This may be because Jews wash themselves more often than non-Jews. I think it is.

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  9. I have the perfect solution.

    Anyone who cries Nazi should be deported to Poland where they can (a) visit Auschwitz and realise what a Nazi really is (b) keep far away from other Jews in Israel who care about covid.

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    1. I'll leave this for those who actually know חושן משפט. Can a cop sue these slanderers in בית דין for מוציא שם רע? Legitimate & halachic lawsuits would be more economically sound than deportation.

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    2. There is virtually no claim in BD about מוציא שם רע. Even in the classic case, where somebody publicized falsely that someone's products for sale are defective, causing him financial loss, there is no monetary claim.
      And certainly when he merely called the other person a derogatory name, which may cause pain, but no financial loss.

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  10. Again, Rabbi Slifkin. If you use the term "murderer" here, what term do you have left for things we all know are far worse than what is happening here? (Such as someone who premeditatedly shoots a passerby in the street?)

    Surely you agree people here, as stupid as they may be behaving, do not intend to kill others. The term murder implies intent. If you blur the linguistic line out of a sense of passion for the subject, what term do you have left for people who actually do kill with intent?

    I just don't see the need to stay up this tree. Its bad enough to be guilty of reckless endangerment and breach of law and public policy, and perhaps be guilty of accidentally leading to deaths of others. Do you not see a difference between those descriptions and the absolute and purposeful nature of the act of murder?

    Prominent people in the charedi world

    You try to hide behind others who also use fiery language. But in so doing, you reveal how much more measured and reasonable their language is than yours. They mention arei miklat - which is for accidental homicide only. They realize that this does not rise to the situation of willful homicide - murder - which would not be related to arei miklat, but rather, din rodef.

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    1. It's not an accident. People are responsible when they do something dangerous that is likely to cause harm to others, even if it's not intended. And if people are killed as a result, that's called 2nd degree murder (not premeditated)

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  11. Maybe Trump will pardon them -- and they won't get sick, nor infect others?

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  12. "Some felt that "murder" was too strong a term."
    Kikar reports that R' Dovid Yosef said that covid scoffers have "blood on their hands". So we now have a growing list of gedolim who are using such strong terms.

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  13. "Murderers" is too mild. You should use the R word ("Rodfim").

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    1. And Avi, you are willing to live with the legal consequences of a halakhic categorization as rodfim?

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    2. they certainly are rodfim. Maybe not murderers since they don't intend it, but rodfim for sure. Any God-fearing jew with an once of sense should keep away from them and their likes. And other people should too!

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    3. Is that the halakha of rodef? To stay away from them?

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    4. yes, of course. You shouldn't go near them and if they come for you you can kill them first. If you go out of your way to kill them, then YOU are being rodef.
      Not sure killing them is going to help you very much in a plague seting though. But the point is there's no need for intent to be called a rodef.

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  14. Shame on all of them.
    Gere, Satmar, Bobov, Belz etc. They all have their hands dipped in blood and all are mechallel Shem Shamayim bfarhesiya. There is no teshuva for this terrible behavior. All these sects should have funding pulled from them and their Yeshivos locked.

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    1. afaik, Ger took this thing seriously. Don't know about the others.

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    2. Ger and Slonim have both been very careful since the beginning of this Pandemic.
      Satmar, Bobov, Belz, Viznutz, and Brestlev - not so much

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  15. God forbid I should defend these criminals with blood-stained hands.
    However the plague explanation for the death of Rabbi Akiva's talmidim is not the only hypothesis. For example, Dr. Henry Abrahamson often mentions the Bar Kochba's revolt to explain it. And I guess chasidim probably believe in a makkat bechoros type of scenario, unrelated to any plague.

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    1. It is not the only hypothesis, but it is the one that chassidim claim to believe. You won't find many of them who say it was anything other than a plague that killed off the students because of a lacking in their middos

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    2. To the contrary I think they believe the talmidim died directly from God's hands without need for any biological plague. And what they mourn, of course, isn't the loss of these people, but the loss of Torah study that followed.
      As an aside, there were more tragic plagues in jewish history, which don't have such a powerful impact on our calendar. So I too don't think it has anything to do with the plague.
      Which of course doesn't mean there aren't enough reasons not to hold populous weddings these days.

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    3. Does not the textual source describe it as a "plague?" What is the distinction between a plague "directly from God's hands" and a "biological plague" ?????? God no longer runs the world but did in those days?

      They believe there was a plague where people got sick and died.

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    4. The Gemara writes that it was Askara - generally translated as diphtheria, although I don't know if it is accurate.

      Charedim generally believe the Gemara they learn.

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    5. אמרו: שנים עשר אלף זוגים תלמידים היו לו לרבי עקיבא מגבת עד אנטיפרס וכולן מתו בפרק אחד, מפני שלא נהגו כבוד זה בזה. והיה העולם שמם, עד שבא רבי עקיבא אצל רבותינו שבדרום ושׁנאה (לימדה) להם, רבי מאיר, רבי יהודה, רבי יוסי, רבי שמעון ורבי אלעזר בן שמוע, והם הם העמידו תורה אותה שעה. תנא כולם מתו מפסח עד עצרת. אמר רב חמא בר אבא ואיתימא ר' חייא בר אבין כולם מתו מיתה רעה מאי היא אמר רב נחמן אסכרה.
      The Gemara starts by saying they died, then it says how they died. It doesn't say ''plague'' but אסכרה which is a disease of the lungs, could be diphteria or tuberculosis.
      But the term ''plague'' suppposes spread by infection from people to people, and that's exactly what we're trying to avoid nowadays. On the other hand, the talmidim could have died alone without infection from other people, and I'm sure this way is more appealing to chasidim. Of course God still runs the world and that is another reason for chasidim to disregard the rules. God is of course going to spare them because they're the his saintly people who believe in him against all the outside world.

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  16. Rabbi Slifkin, perhaps you can answer a simpler question: what do you gain by misusing the term "murderer" and applying it in this context?

    Is it too much to expect rational, measured rhetoric during a pandemic, even on a rationalist blog such as this?

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  17. Why do you insist on completely discrediting yourself by saying "Muh the President incited an insurrection"
    Your message is far too important to set yourself up as a straw man like this. Your important message about Covid and the failure of community leaders won't be heard by people who are against political violence of ALL kinds and aren't imbibing the narratives of CNN and are sickened by them.

    It's amazing to me that you can't see how self-defeating this is

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  18. if someone mamash hates chareidim , they should applaud these types of activities at it would be expected to lead to more chareidi deaths. oh, the counter -ta'anah will be that people protest these acts because of the collateral damage to innocent non hareidim...

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    1. @lechatchila, That's disgusting. No one hates chareidim. And even if someone did, they should not cheer the virus. That's disgusting. We need to respect everyone.

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  19. Amazing! All we heard was about the capitol until tonight. Again, Portland and Seattle break into a "peaceful" protest, despite their man, Biden won, and for what? It's so hilarious. These BLM and antifa people look like the nazi blackshirts. This is exactly what the blackshirts did, too. They walked around at night and if you didn't like them they burned your business and killed you. You cannot make them happy. You could give them a million dollars and they won't be happy. literally on day one of his inauguration and they're already rioting. They couldn't even wait a day!

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  20. It's not Chassidic weddings that is the problem. The newly appointed self-described "doctor" of American Leftism, Tanny Rachel Levine, caused unnecessary deaths when he ordered the elderly into nursing homes during a pandemic, while dutifully removing his own mother, an act of sheer hypocrisy! This is not fair. How is he any better than Governor Cuomo's tragic order causing unnecessary deaths when he ordered people into nursing homes? Not to mention that Levine abandoned his own family when he, and I say "he" because he is a man, decided he wanted to be a woman, suddenly. And this is who Joe Biden appointed as the national assistant secretary for health!?

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  21. In other words, it's not Chassidic Wedding we should be worried about.

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  22. Nebech. It's been a month and half since the 'murders' and the bodies still haven't turned up.

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