Very well put. I remember thinking, when John Paul II visited in 2000, that if I'd gone back a hundred years and told my Polish grandparents, "A hundred years from now, the Pope- who will be Polish- will visit Israel. The airport will be covered with signs in Hebrew. He will be greeted by an honor guard of Jewish soldiers, and will meet the Jewish president and Jewish prime minister and the chief rabbis. Escorted by Jewish police, he will go to the Kotel and put in a note asking Hashem to forgive the Christians for how they have treated Jews."
I bet my grandparents would say, "Oh, so you're saying that in a hundred years, Mashiach will be here?"
Me, I said birkat kohanim and read the haftarah on the Har HaBayit this morning. Impossible even a couple of years ago. There's much to say Hallel for today.
If you told Jews 500 years ago that in 500 years, the majority of Jews wouldn't keep Shabbos or Kashrus, wouldn't know that Hashem gave the Torah to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai, and that non-religious Jews would be in charge of most of Eretz Yisroel engaged in constant war with neighbouring Muslims, whilst also having gay pride parades in Eretz Yisroel, they might have a different reaction.
I'm sorry, this is a remarkably silly and childish response. First, you seem to have little knowledge of the religious situation of European Jews in 1900, and even less of the religious situation in Israel. (Not "Eretz Yisroel." Come on.) The former was not at all as idyllic as you think, and the latter is far better than your slander. I'm not talking about America (or, based on your English, Britain): In Israel the majority of Jews keep Shabbat and kashrut and know full well about Sinai.
Moreover, for context: The great-grandparents I referred to, together with their siblings and most of their descendants, were a few decades away from being shot in the back of the head and dumped into pits. Do you think they would have been at all *disappointed* that a number of their descendants were at that moment alive and well in Palestine? Do you think that for a minute they wouldn't have wished they were there as well? That there would have been a Jewish state to take them in? Give me a break.
Finally, as Ephraim indicated, you've completely misread my post: Of *course* Mashiach hasn't come. You don't have to tell me that. But *on the facts I listed*, all of which are true, then any European Jew would have thought Mashiach had come, and they wouldn't have asked about Sinai. There's inherent value to Jewish sovereignty even without perfection, as the Rambam says. To ignore the positive is just, well, cynicism. (Oscar Wilde: "A cynic is someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.")
1900 is post-Haskalah. Pre-Haskalah Jews would have been horrified at the spiritual decline of Klal Yisroel that was coming.
I don't disagree with your 2nd paragraph.
You said "I bet my grandparents would say, "Oh, so you're saying that in a hundred years, Mashiach will be here?"" They would only think that if you painted the rosy picture that you did.
More whataboutism. Nachum was talking about 1900. But no, it's not good enough for that generation to be (hypothetically) thrilled at current miracles. No, you've got to satisfy the expulsion generation too. A generation you have no clue about. A generation that according to ר' ברוך הלוי עפשטיין in his ברוך שאמר that was so rebellious that they murdered their parents. A generation in which masses converted to Christianity- and not just to save their lives. A generation where residents of ירושלים were brutalized by the rulers. Not only are you clueless about that generation, you are clueless about ארץ ישראל and ירושלים at the time.
The very fact that you as a member our generation- pampered materially and spiritually (and yes, I'm not including our contemporaries who were trapped in the Soviet sphere and the like) are less thrilled then Nachum's grandparents just indicates that you have so it good and want more. It's okay that you want more- since you're wants are pure. But you've got no perspective. There is a wide gap between גנאי and שבח- both materially (עבדים-בני חורין) and spiritually (עע"ז - הר סיני) - you're stuck in גנאי and have failed to grasp every דיינו in between.
500 is לאו דוקא. The same applies to 400 years ago, and indeed to 300 years ago, since the Haskalah started about 250 years ago.
Regardless, I should stated my point בפירוש. My point is that previous generations would not have thought that we are living in ימות המשיח if you tell them the whole picture, the יתרונות and the חסרונות.
Many (most?) of the early maskilim were traditional and would have been dismayed to hear that "the majority of Jews wouldn't keep Shabbos or Kashrus, wouldn't know that Hashem gave the Torah to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai". Don't conflate Haskala with Reform.
" My point is that previous generations would not have thought that we are living in ימות המשיח if you tell them the whole picture, the יתרונות and the חסרונות."
So you agree with Nachum? He didn't include the whole picture in his hypothetical story.
Beautifully articulated! Someone asked me why Yom HaZikaron and Yom Ha'Atzmaut come one after another. I believe its because we have to look to our past, to appreciate where we have come from, as painful as that may be. And we must look to our future! It is replete with hope. Am Yisrael chai!!!
Sorry but don't have any other place to comment.In your "Disposing of Nosson" you say you will never republish your old "Chraedi ideological books because they are flawed. Why not with the critical essay on the book. Sounds interesting to me.
1. We're the people who keep pushing people to behave unnaturally - meaning with morals, selflessness and sacrifices - and that is what define as being good. Most people hate others who cause their lives to be difficult. It's alot easier to just do whatever you want and not care what that means.
2. We are oldest nation with a legacy that God chose us. That drives people nuts, i.e. you think you're special?
3. Or it makes people envious. Why them, not us?
4. As an adjunct to #3, those people who recognize that we're oddly proportionally more successful, are jealous of that success.
The reasons why people hate Jews are always related to the most destructive emotions humans harbor. If they were rational, they'd want to be more friendly with the people who've brought success to almost every society they were allowed to participate in.
I don’t think so. You were often killed, but Jews were less likely to be totally destitute or deeply ignorant than others. Almost all Jewish men have been able to read and write, the people has had an interesting and subtle culture and jobs often more interesting and lucrative than those of the surrounding peasantry.
History is horrible, yours too, but in comparison with the average human existence in the surrounding peoples, I would say that the Jewish existence was objectively better and subjectively much better.
First, "urbanized" doesn't mean "rich." Second, no, Jews weren't as urbanized as you suppose. And of course a lot of that urbanism was forced, in ghettoes. Not exactly a ticket for success.
Your reference to Venetians is odd, considering that Venice is a city.
One of Yisrael HaYom's columnists wrote a devastating piece on that attitude last week, pointing out that the exact same public figures who call not to celebrate traditional holidays insist on celebrating, well, other things:
Celebrations are tempered by some mourning. Some years more than others. Some can't do both- the people mentioned by the article you linked, and the commenters here.
Very well put. I remember thinking, when John Paul II visited in 2000, that if I'd gone back a hundred years and told my Polish grandparents, "A hundred years from now, the Pope- who will be Polish- will visit Israel. The airport will be covered with signs in Hebrew. He will be greeted by an honor guard of Jewish soldiers, and will meet the Jewish president and Jewish prime minister and the chief rabbis. Escorted by Jewish police, he will go to the Kotel and put in a note asking Hashem to forgive the Christians for how they have treated Jews."
I bet my grandparents would say, "Oh, so you're saying that in a hundred years, Mashiach will be here?"
Me, I said birkat kohanim and read the haftarah on the Har HaBayit this morning. Impossible even a couple of years ago. There's much to say Hallel for today.
If you told Jews 500 years ago that in 500 years, the majority of Jews wouldn't keep Shabbos or Kashrus, wouldn't know that Hashem gave the Torah to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai, and that non-religious Jews would be in charge of most of Eretz Yisroel engaged in constant war with neighbouring Muslims, whilst also having gay pride parades in Eretz Yisroel, they might have a different reaction.
I'm sorry, this is a remarkably silly and childish response. First, you seem to have little knowledge of the religious situation of European Jews in 1900, and even less of the religious situation in Israel. (Not "Eretz Yisroel." Come on.) The former was not at all as idyllic as you think, and the latter is far better than your slander. I'm not talking about America (or, based on your English, Britain): In Israel the majority of Jews keep Shabbat and kashrut and know full well about Sinai.
Moreover, for context: The great-grandparents I referred to, together with their siblings and most of their descendants, were a few decades away from being shot in the back of the head and dumped into pits. Do you think they would have been at all *disappointed* that a number of their descendants were at that moment alive and well in Palestine? Do you think that for a minute they wouldn't have wished they were there as well? That there would have been a Jewish state to take them in? Give me a break.
Finally, as Ephraim indicated, you've completely misread my post: Of *course* Mashiach hasn't come. You don't have to tell me that. But *on the facts I listed*, all of which are true, then any European Jew would have thought Mashiach had come, and they wouldn't have asked about Sinai. There's inherent value to Jewish sovereignty even without perfection, as the Rambam says. To ignore the positive is just, well, cynicism. (Oscar Wilde: "A cynic is someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.")
1900 is post-Haskalah. Pre-Haskalah Jews would have been horrified at the spiritual decline of Klal Yisroel that was coming.
I don't disagree with your 2nd paragraph.
You said "I bet my grandparents would say, "Oh, so you're saying that in a hundred years, Mashiach will be here?"" They would only think that if you painted the rosy picture that you did.
"Pre-Haskalah Jews would have been horrified at the spiritual decline of Klal Yisroel that was coming."
There already was a spiritual decline at that period. It just didn't have an ideology or movement (that could be named) behind it.
And in the various periods before that, there were other spiritual declines. The modern era is not without its parallels.
I think they'd also be pretty horrified at the Holocaust, something that seems not to affect you.
פשיטא
"If you told Jews 500 years ago..."
More whataboutism. Nachum was talking about 1900. But no, it's not good enough for that generation to be (hypothetically) thrilled at current miracles. No, you've got to satisfy the expulsion generation too. A generation you have no clue about. A generation that according to ר' ברוך הלוי עפשטיין in his ברוך שאמר that was so rebellious that they murdered their parents. A generation in which masses converted to Christianity- and not just to save their lives. A generation where residents of ירושלים were brutalized by the rulers. Not only are you clueless about that generation, you are clueless about ארץ ישראל and ירושלים at the time.
The very fact that you as a member our generation- pampered materially and spiritually (and yes, I'm not including our contemporaries who were trapped in the Soviet sphere and the like) are less thrilled then Nachum's grandparents just indicates that you have so it good and want more. It's okay that you want more- since you're wants are pure. But you've got no perspective. There is a wide gap between גנאי and שבח- both materially (עבדים-בני חורין) and spiritually (עע"ז - הר סיני) - you're stuck in גנאי and have failed to grasp every דיינו in between.
500 is לאו דוקא. The same applies to 400 years ago, and indeed to 300 years ago, since the Haskalah started about 250 years ago.
Regardless, I should stated my point בפירוש. My point is that previous generations would not have thought that we are living in ימות המשיח if you tell them the whole picture, the יתרונות and the חסרונות.
"since the Haskalah started about 250 years ago."
Many (most?) of the early maskilim were traditional and would have been dismayed to hear that "the majority of Jews wouldn't keep Shabbos or Kashrus, wouldn't know that Hashem gave the Torah to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai". Don't conflate Haskala with Reform.
" My point is that previous generations would not have thought that we are living in ימות המשיח if you tell them the whole picture, the יתרונות and the חסרונות."
So you agree with Nachum? He didn't include the whole picture in his hypothetical story.
But I *didn't*. And they wouldn't have cared.
Rashi, Beraishis 11:9:
וְכִי אֵיזוֹ קָשָׁה, שֶׁל דּוֹר הַמַּבּוּל אוֹ שֶׁל דּוֹר הַפַּלָּגָה? אֵלּוּ לֹא פָשְׁטוּ יָד בָּעִקָּר וְאֵלּוּ פָשְׁטוּ יָד בָּעִקָּר לְהִלָּחֵם בּוֹ, וְאֵלּוּ נִשְׁטְפוּ וְאֵלּוּ לֹא נֶאֱבְדוּ מִן הָעוֹלָם? אֶלָּא שֶׁדּוֹר הַמַּבּוּל הָיוּ גַּזְלָנִים וְהָיְתָה מְרִיבָה בֵינֵיהֶם, לְכָךְ נֶאֱבְדוּ; וְאֵלּוּ הָיוּ נוֹהֲגִים אַהֲבָה וְרֵעוּת בֵּינֵיהֶם, שֶׁנֶּ' שָׂפָה אֶחָת וּדְבָרִים אֲחָדִים, לָמַדְתָּ שֶׁשָּׂנְאוּי הַמַּחֲלֹקֶת וְגָדוֹל הַשָּׁלֹום:
Maybe learn a little history.
True. Neither דור המבול nor דור הפלגה were ימות המשיח.
God sometimes puts peace above following halacha is my point.
Very good historical perspective
Beautifully articulated! Someone asked me why Yom HaZikaron and Yom Ha'Atzmaut come one after another. I believe its because we have to look to our past, to appreciate where we have come from, as painful as that may be. And we must look to our future! It is replete with hope. Am Yisrael chai!!!
Sorry but don't have any other place to comment.In your "Disposing of Nosson" you say you will never republish your old "Chraedi ideological books because they are flawed. Why not with the critical essay on the book. Sounds interesting to me.
>they would be certain that this must mean that the Messianic Era had arrived.
We are certainly in ikvesa dmeshicha. A terrifying time to be alive.
Fabulous post! Loved time traveling with you!
Correction: The 1st Crusade only started in 1096.
Why are we so cursed. Our history is horrible.
1. We're the people who keep pushing people to behave unnaturally - meaning with morals, selflessness and sacrifices - and that is what define as being good. Most people hate others who cause their lives to be difficult. It's alot easier to just do whatever you want and not care what that means.
2. We are oldest nation with a legacy that God chose us. That drives people nuts, i.e. you think you're special?
3. Or it makes people envious. Why them, not us?
4. As an adjunct to #3, those people who recognize that we're oddly proportionally more successful, are jealous of that success.
The reasons why people hate Jews are always related to the most destructive emotions humans harbor. If they were rational, they'd want to be more friendly with the people who've brought success to almost every society they were allowed to participate in.
The tochecha has an answer, if that's what you're looking for.
Also keep in mind that we are hardly the only people to suffer in history. Most of Europe was decimated by WW1 and WW2 for instance.
I don’t think so. You were often killed, but Jews were less likely to be totally destitute or deeply ignorant than others. Almost all Jewish men have been able to read and write, the people has had an interesting and subtle culture and jobs often more interesting and lucrative than those of the surrounding peasantry.
History is horrible, yours too, but in comparison with the average human existence in the surrounding peoples, I would say that the Jewish existence was objectively better and subjectively much better.
Most Jews were pretty destitute, and *were* peasants.
Do you think that any population has been more urbanized than Jews in the last 2000 years? Well, Venezians, I suppose. Anybody else?
First, "urbanized" doesn't mean "rich." Second, no, Jews weren't as urbanized as you suppose. And of course a lot of that urbanism was forced, in ghettoes. Not exactly a ticket for success.
Your reference to Venetians is odd, considering that Venice is a city.
That is precisely the joke! :-)
One of Yisrael HaYom's columnists wrote a devastating piece on that attitude last week, pointing out that the exact same public figures who call not to celebrate traditional holidays insist on celebrating, well, other things:
https://www.israelhayom.co.il/magazine/hashavua/article/15679913
(To be fair, Tel Aviv *has* cancelled their Pride parade.)
I know people who have a hard time celebrating, for obvious and understandable personal reasons. They never tell others not to.
"I know people who have a hard time celebrating,"
אַ֭עֲלֶה אֶת־יְרוּשָׁלַ֑͏ִם עַ֝֗ל רֹ֣אשׁ שִׂמְחָתִֽי׃
Celebrations are tempered by some mourning. Some years more than others. Some can't do both- the people mentioned by the article you linked, and the commenters here.