Meanwhile some people are moved that it shows "love and concern of a charedi rabbi" for soldiers who have sacrificed so much. Well, whoop-de-doo! Talk about setting a low bar. Anyone with a shred of a neshama would feel love and concern for someone who got their limbs blown off to protect you!
I don't appreciate that attitude. The bar is low is a fact. There are people in the chareidi community who proclaim that even today's Zionists are "Nazis." I think we should celebrate progress not diminish it
It's not just "feeling love and concern." It's breaking the vice grip of the gedolim on this and saying something publicly that that exposes him to condemnation. Including that there are tzadikim and talmidei chachamim in the dati world who fight in the army. And you quote him falsely. He never says "we don’t need to do what they do", as in army service. He says we don't need to be like them in their hashkafos. He's not getting into whether they should serve in the army. He's obviously on a panel speaking about a specific topic. You should be concluding "if only all charedi rabbanim were like him..." Instead, you can't even find the decency to show love and respect to the Rav who most brilliantly represents a bridge between the charedi and dati leumi communities, just because he's not a flame throwing anti charedi like you are. You are ready to throw him under the bus, r'l, without a problem until you realize well, maybe his audience is not who you thought.
The problem is that you're only listening to Rav Weiss and you're not paying attention to those sitting next to you in the audience. Of course, that's not possible if you're watching via youtube, but the intended audience is there- somewhere. And the message wasn't for you; it was for them.
I discern an exasperation with those (he's "not mentioning names") who have put down soldiers, or don't offer any הכרת הטוב- or worse. So he's addressing that issue and he's insisting that not only should the soldiers be given the respect (and sometimes awe) from a distance, but they should be recognized and thanked close up.
The clip was short, and I don't know what else he said. I think your disappointment is off base.
Rav Asher Weiss definitely means well and he definitely knows the audience he's speaking to. He's one of the only major Charedi rabbis that frequently speaks to dati leumi crowds and yeshivot. And he has publically repudiated the distasteful attitude towards soldiers as exhibited by some of his contemporaries:
As an aside, he once shared that one of the most moving moments of his life was when he passed a soldier who was standing guard near Haifa in the morning and he observed the soldier putting on Tefillin. He broke down in tears as it suddenly hit him how far we had come as Jews in a Jewish State.
He's definitely not the rabbi to criticise. If anyone is bound to bring about that gradual change that is very much needed in the Charedi community, it is sages of his ilk.
I'm not hearing the video the way you are. He calls the DL soldier a Talmid Chacham, he is thanking him for sacrificing a huge part of his life for the nation, not just for his halachic questions, and he even explicitly says that even if he was no longer religious he would be praiseworthy. You are right that he's does not say "you all need to go out and enlist now", but this is precisely the path that will help reform the social mores to where enlisting is an acceptable alternative.
My friend, can we relax a bit? You're right, Rav Asher Weiss shlita did not say what David Ohsie said. You're absolutely right to correct him. But can't we assume it was a mistake, like he watched the video once and wrote his impression rather than what was actually said (happens to me all the time...)?
"I just watched the video, Rav Asher Weiss didn't say he would still be praiseworthy, he said that even if he left religion no one could blame him." This corrects the record, which is the main goal of responding. What does the accusation of lying, and the 'unless you just want to say that yourself' add?
Thank you for your comment on civility. I don't think that what I said was wrong. I was not quoting him. It seems certainly correct that he was not conditioning his praise of the soldier on his religiosity based on his comments about understanding if he left religion. It seems obvious to me that he is saying this because he has such admiration for is sacrifice for the nation. If you have another interpretation of his short statement, I'd like to hear it.
Your interpretation of what he said may be correct, but its an interpretation. You wrote 'he explicitly said' something, which others will read as you saying "he said the following words," even if you didnt mean it that way.
My wife showed me this video last night, along with another of the soldier in question saying a bracha under the chuppa of one of his buddies. We were both very moved, but also both had pretty much the same reaction you did: We found it troubling, and said it wasn't at all what we would have said (or at least *all* of what we would have said), but at the same time it's a lot better than what it usually being said to these sorts of audiences. We'll see.
In that context, I have to share a pleasant thought I just had, seeing that Gallant has plans to draft a few thousand charedim who aren't actually learning, to start. If (and this is a big if) he (and, more importantly, Bibi) is being honest and if (big if) this actually happens, again, it's not ideal, but it may be a much bigger step than you might think, for this reason: The charedim have dug their heels in *so* deep, refusing to even consider the drafting of dropouts, that any step is a blow against their absolutist stance- which may then, please God, lead to the whole thing falling down. "We absolutely refuse to have our dropouts drafted! It would be a disaster!" "We've just drafted your dropouts. No disaster. What's your excuse now?"
It's not like they won't pivot immediately, but the facts will remain.
Speculation: There are two possible fallouts from this.
1) What will the reaction of those who were promised that draft was a modern day cantonist decree- יהרג ועל יעבר- to be met with the halachic imperative to make ירידה? When none of that will happen, will there be disenchantment or reassessment of uncompromising purism?
2) This new Charedi enlistment will start small. There should more than enough recruits among the non-learners. Indeed, we can expect a surplus. Some will serve, and some will continue in Yeshiva learning, wanting in diligence. But who decides? What system will be utilized for the selection? A lottery or strict objective criteria? Or some combination of family influence, protexia or money? Or paleskin khappers?
Strong criticism is not the same as inappropriate language. A ben torah is supposed to be refined at all times. Not that we see it on these pages, but of course real benei torah do not frequent blogs.
Try legilimency in addition to insults. If that doesn't work, the imperius curse could be a last resort option, though I've heard tell they ban people from the comments section for that...
No, I'm only making procedural comments right now, not substantive ones. I prefer not to bandy substance with cowards who hide behind ever-changing avatars, particularly those that are rather peculiar marriages of pop and yeshivish culture. Reb Meir Simcha and Voldemort juxtaposed is certainly signature, I'll give you that though.
There are 2 separate issues which are related, one Charedim refusing to serve, the other is Charedim not even acknowledging the fact that there are religious soldiers risking their lives every day so that we can live in this country (or live anywhere in effect).
Although these are related issues, they need to be addressed separately - and you have written about them separately.
This video seems to go a very long way to address the second issue, lack of acknowledgement that there are religious soldiers in the army. The fact that it didn't address the first issue does not diminish the importance of at least acknowledging and having Hakartot HaTov for the hundreds of thousands of soldiers (and the families) who are literally risking their lives so other people can sit in the Beit Midrash and learn.
My bigger question is how mainstream this video is. I know people from the DL community who regard themselves as Talmidim of Rav Weiss in this video, I do not know how much influence he has within the mainstream Charedi world.
Nachum, we have heard you make these comments earlier. By official estimates, there are 1.3 million Haredim In the State of Israel alone. You seem to be a reasonably-minded person (if a bit bit focused on this crusade). Still, does it make any sense to claim: "THEY don't acknowledge soldiers". Is it indeed possible that not all Haredim think and speak the same way on this issue?
Perhaps you should keep your critique to theoreticals and ideology, and not be so quick to generalize and publicly delegitimize entire groups of Jews (Yeshivish, Chasidic and Sefardi), many of whom are just as sincere, intelligent and G-d fearing as you.
You'd accomplish a lot more on this blog if you wrote articles on what the IDF needs to change to make the environment acceptable for Chareidi. It will be a lot more successful than what you are doing now.
If Chareidim felt their standards of Kedusha and Kashrus were kept the enlistment numbers would skyrocket.
Not true. There is already a charedi hesder yeshiva, and another two opening, and there is not "skyrocketing" enlistment. Chareid opposition is not about kedusha and kashrus.
Here I can put my money where my mouth is. I will bet 10 to 1 odds in your favor for a hundred thousand dollars,. Even if the Army makes and follows all the demands of the charedim they will still not go to the army. Anyone willing to take up my challenge???
The reason the charedim don't want to go serve, has nothing to do with Torah learning, nothing to do with their lifestyle, it is simply a case of "GETTING OUT OF DOING THEIR DUTY TO THEIR COUNTRY" why risk your life, if to can hoodwink society and get others to do the hard work. while you stay safe in your sheltered environment.
Notice how they move from reason to reason........
* Torah protects - if they couldn't find sources, they would say Shabbos or Tiffilah protects
* We have some that go to the army - why bother the rest, you are only out to get us
* The army wants only to shmad us - we wont let it happen
* They army does not need more soldiers - it is a smoke screen
* When the army appoints frum commanders - we will go (sure)
* The army does not want us - we are a burden to them
Here are the newer latest ones.....
* We are nebach to "shvach" (weak) to fight,- how can we hold a rifle straight
* The chlonim also don't go - see 10 % of Tel Aviv get out of it
* The Gidolim know better than everyone else what is right - honor street cleaners instead
More coming - just stay tuned
It is so foolish to argue with them - they simply are not going! The only thing that might change their minds - is a hard jail cell, like the rest of society are offered if they refuse.
Good summary of their tapdance routine. After the war, we will see a massive backlash against those who refused to serve and separated themselves from the כלל. It would be smart for haredi politicians and supposed leaders to at least appear more moderate, but that is not their way.
I disagree. I think their refusal to serve has everything to do with their desire to preserve the insular chareidi lifestyle (which, as their behavior readily demonstrates, cannot withstand exposure to the outside world).
In order to avoid the continuing fiasco of hillul Hashem, the Roshei Yeshivot should be running to the army to begin working together on wqays to draft yeshiva students.
Since the Haredim claim the crown of Torah for themselves, they are the ones who should be really worried about hillul Hashem. Maybe they should tuck in their tzitzit and bare their heads before proclaiming their refusal to serve in order to lessen the hillul Hashem involved.
Right but the army which has a shortage should be running to accomodate them which they're not. it's been decades and there are still religious issues in religious units.
Can you define "kedusha" and "kashrus"? (It's called "kashrut" in Israel, by the way.) IDF kashrut is already up to charedi standards and is strict especially in religious units, which- shocker!- exist. As to "kedusha," that's pretty vague, but I assume you mean giiiiirrrllllzzz. So let me assure you, your average charedi encounters a lot less "kedusha" walking down the streets of an Israeli city in summertime than he's ever going to encounter in the IDF. And as best I know no charedi keeps himself from walking down the streets.
chareidim will only trust their badaatzim and in the שטח there are definetly issues. people bring their own food and cook in the kitchen. there's a בסיס טירונות which very often tries to get ביניישים to put חיילות on the stretcher as part of a תרגיל. it's been years and they often make the same mistakes with religious soldiers.
If it's a completely religious unit, cooking one's own food will not be an issue.
And yes, at some point a line is going to have to be drawn. Demanding one's own badatz is, I'm sorry, a sign of halakhic immaturity, and yes, nebach you'll have to go with one form of mehadrin instead of another when you interact with other people.
Right i was arguing from the chareidi perspective where they dont eat unless its a kashrus they trust. The army should be willing to make concessions to chareidi standards just like they do for טבעונים if theres a manpower shortage. I agree chareidim should draft but its not like the army has been super accommodating of high religious standards. You have friends in the army? Hesder guys?
"Demanding one's own badatz is, I'm sorry, a sign of halakhic immaturity"
Might be. But it's also a sign of policy immaturity if the government refuses to provide badatz food knowing that this is a major obstacle to charedi army integration.
I do think Nachal Charedi already provides badatz food though, presumably the same would be true of other charedi units.
Its a huge issue in hesder! Ask a חייל בייניש! You still interact with other units. Its not the whole גדוד which is religious! How big do you think these units are? Ive seen מוצבים. There are definitely many חילונים!
of course he will! nobody's thinking of צניעות in battle. it's פיקוח נפש! we don't train on שבת but we obviuosly guard and fight on שבת. training is a different story entirely
I don't know what you're talking about. Thousands of yir'ei shamayim do not walk down the streets in areas where they might encounter a lack of tzniyut.
Yeah and these are not cute little "chumras" btw. The gemara calls someone who goes on a path with a lady barefoot or showing her knees or arms (the gemara only mentions that the women are washing clothes; the rishonim explain that their normally covered body parts are uncovered then) when he could avoid it- a *rasha*! That's strong language is there is any.
We're talking to a community who don't cover their arms as par for the course. So yes we need accommodations on both sides.
My Israeli family is sick of what people like you are saying. My nephew who is completely orthodox has served months since October 7. First up north abd now in Gaza.
I think you do a significant disservice to every other post of yours on the subject by criticizing Rav Asher Weiss for this video. This needs to be praised, not criticized.
Not everything that doesn't line up exactly with one's views should be fodder for criticism. There is so much goodness here that ought to be praised.
I don't think that you understood what I'm saying. I'm saying that the video is praiseworthy for a charedi audience, but not for a non-charedi audience.
I saw this video yesterday and my reaction during the first part was like many of you here that finally a Chareidi/ Chassidic (R.Asher is a Klausenburger Chassid) finally has broken the iron curtain. but then disappointment set in. although he praises the young man he however puts in a kudo - this is not us! thr tone of condesension as if the real Chareidim el Dvar Hashem are us but "they" are not as bad as we think! the arrogance and complete disregard to the halachik imperative to join in this milchemet mitzva made me sick. BTW on an earlier post a commenter tried to disavow that this is a milchemet mitzva by saying you need sanhedrin for it to be that, is incorrect. it is the opposite michemt mitzva does not need sanhedrin, milchemet reshut does see Rambam hil Melachim 5:2. my argument with him was fundemental about what halacha is so i did not bother to correct him.
I suspect that Rav Asher Weiss also believes the same as you.
But he is trying to tread a very fine line by extolling the virtues of our soldiers, while at the same time showing some allegiance to the Chareidi camp.
If he follows Torah Hashkofo, then he should really be saying that now is not the time to be focusing on increasing our learning. (עיין רמב"ם הלכות מלכים ומלחמות).
He knows that, but he can't say it, otherwise he could get ostracised, banned, put in Cherem or any other terms you want to use to describe what happened to you.
Richie, one of the reasons why so many Yeshiva Bachurim are inspired is due to their exposure to the Rebbeim, Talmidei Chachamim and Avreichim they encountered while in Yeshivos. Hundreds of formerly Modern Orthodox youth currently learn in the Mirrer Yeshiva, Ner Yisrael and other traditional Yeshivos. They left the path of their families precisely for this reason - when studying in Yeshiva in real life they discovered how much they had missed out, and how mistaken were the negative impressions they had been given of Rebbeim, Haredim and Roshei Yeshiva - many of whom actually have outstanding and sterling character.
Evidently the ideal contemporary haredi response to violence is the Har Nof massacre. Daven with kavannah, have somebody else wipe up the blood with disposable diapers afterwards. Seems sound.
RDNS, this is the second time (I think) that you have attacked Rav Asher Weiss specifically. (I think the other time was about the efficacy of having some's zechus for learning transferred to someone else.) You of all people should know that even people that you respect can disagree with you, and even if you agree with most of your opinions.
It is a mistake to cast Rav Asher Weiss the way you do. He is one (maybe the only) Charedi rav who tells people to stop learning and get a job, the only one who says that the charedi system of having all boys learn in Yeshiva forever is destined for failure. He is downright liberal for charedi circles, extremely down to earth, speaks to all עידוֹת, and practical in his approach to modern Halacha. The fact that he said in a schmuz to (probably) American yeshiva students (remember - he's speaking in English, not hebrew) that they need to have huge Hakaras Hatov to this soldier *even if he had gone off the derech* and understand that there are תלמידי חכמים outside of their purview should be great חיזוק. Rav Asher Weiss generally agrees with you, there's no reason to go off the handle on him.
At the risk of going off on a דרשה, the Gemara (Avoda Zara 5b) says that אדם הראשון was a "כפוי טובה", an ingrate. He was much more than that, and violated worse איסורים than just not being grateful. But a core issue with him was that he didn't not acknowledge what God had done for him, and that is what lead him to not listen to God at all.
The כפיית טובה from the charedi sector is part of the core issue, not "icing on the cake". (This is a response to those who complained here that this is a low bar.)
Sorry - I forgot to make clear that there's no עבירה in telling American yeshiva students to have הכרת הטוב even if they don't choose that way of life, when they actually have no need to make such a choice. Unless RDNS is one of the ppl that says that even chutznikim are legally, morally and theologically required to join the IDF?
Thank you for explicating so clearly what I had in mind with my earlier comment.
I'll just add that there is a deep irony here in R. Slifkin not being able to מכיר טוב the incredible progress and bravery contained within Rav Asher Weiss' statement.
If Rav Weiss grew up in a community which wouldn't have hakarat hatov to someone who got their limbs blown off to protect them, then there's progress. Did he? And what bravery is there? What does he stand to lose?
There's an expression "there's no such thing as a free lunch".
Then there's the HALACHA that, in a "milchemet mitzvah", essentially a mandantory war, the Torah noted exemptions (just married, not yet built a house, etc) DO NOT APPLY. Virtually EVERY war that Israel fights is a "milchemet mitzvah" (not a "milchemet reshut", a permissable war).
Therefore, while learning, etc., is important, it is NOT a substitute for some means of service to the nation. And PLEASE don't tell me the nonsense that it's a secular gov't. How many of the Kings of Israel were not only anti-religious but anti-Israel, too. And yet the eligible soldiers fought.
Shulchan Aruch OH has nothing to do with milchemes mitzvah, it is a halacha in hilchos Shabbos, whether we can rely on the fact that money will placate the gangsters.
Melachim 5:1 has been hashed out many times. The war to ruin Hamas may be necessary, just, important, and a good idea. None of those have anything to do with milchemes mitzvah. Milchemes mitzvah is when your town is attacked and you need to get rid of the attackers. Not when their future ability to attack must be stopped.
Your whole country was attacked, not just your town. And unless STRINGENT action is taken, it will continue to occur.
Two Orthodox Rabbis in my area of Jerusalem gave (multiple) shiurim on the subject, and I have the citations they used to support their position. Blee neder I will get them out to you, so you, too, will understand the reality that currently escapes you.
In terms of milchemet mitzva, there is no distinction between Jews living in the state of Israel and Jews living in, say, New Jersey. Are you calling for all able-bodied men from New Jersey to come to Israel to fight?
Right but i think it depends on jurisdiction. The מלך would be מוציא את העם. Dosent need the פסק of סנהדרין like מלחמת רשות. Its more of a national מצווה than a communal one. Its just the responsibility of the עם to be available.
Which makes it all the more troubling. Imagine your embarrassment if after talking to someone missing limbs you discovered that he had been injured fighting Hamas and you spoke to him as if he had only been in a traffic accident!
The haredi gdolim need to give some serious thought as to what will happen to their status quo after this war. Big changes will be coming, and it's more likely than ever that a grieving non-haredi electorate will find a new consensus regarding the Palestinians, our economy, and the size and staffing of the IDF. People will not forget the position of haredi leadership against any form of military or national service. There are likely to be serious cuts to "non-essential" government spending of all kinds.
Rav Weiss doesn't say anything about kiruv, so I'm not sure what you mean by that. He is speaking to studenst of a Chareidi on their own terms. His message is beautiful and a welcome change both in tone and context from what these boys probably hear on a daily basis, in and out of yeshiva.
So you fault him for what? Not standing up, tossing his black hat to the ground and saying, "Rabbosai, we are all wrong! Lo zu haderech! We must enlist and fight!" And were he to do that, what would happen next? Would they listen to him? Or would they laugh and declare him pasul and move on to the next one?
Meanwhile some people are moved that it shows "love and concern of a charedi rabbi" for soldiers who have sacrificed so much. Well, whoop-de-doo! Talk about setting a low bar. Anyone with a shred of a neshama would feel love and concern for someone who got their limbs blown off to protect you!
I don't appreciate that attitude. The bar is low is a fact. There are people in the chareidi community who proclaim that even today's Zionists are "Nazis." I think we should celebrate progress not diminish it
It's not just "feeling love and concern." It's breaking the vice grip of the gedolim on this and saying something publicly that that exposes him to condemnation. Including that there are tzadikim and talmidei chachamim in the dati world who fight in the army. And you quote him falsely. He never says "we don’t need to do what they do", as in army service. He says we don't need to be like them in their hashkafos. He's not getting into whether they should serve in the army. He's obviously on a panel speaking about a specific topic. You should be concluding "if only all charedi rabbanim were like him..." Instead, you can't even find the decency to show love and respect to the Rav who most brilliantly represents a bridge between the charedi and dati leumi communities, just because he's not a flame throwing anti charedi like you are. You are ready to throw him under the bus, r'l, without a problem until you realize well, maybe his audience is not who you thought.
The problem is that you're only listening to Rav Weiss and you're not paying attention to those sitting next to you in the audience. Of course, that's not possible if you're watching via youtube, but the intended audience is there- somewhere. And the message wasn't for you; it was for them.
I discern an exasperation with those (he's "not mentioning names") who have put down soldiers, or don't offer any הכרת הטוב- or worse. So he's addressing that issue and he's insisting that not only should the soldiers be given the respect (and sometimes awe) from a distance, but they should be recognized and thanked close up.
The clip was short, and I don't know what else he said. I think your disappointment is off base.
This commenter (in addition to being a master of avatar transfiguration) is clearly very into constructive disagreement.
Rav Asher Weiss definitely means well and he definitely knows the audience he's speaking to. He's one of the only major Charedi rabbis that frequently speaks to dati leumi crowds and yeshivot. And he has publically repudiated the distasteful attitude towards soldiers as exhibited by some of his contemporaries:
https://vinnews.com/2023/12/20/listen-rav-asher-weiss-discusses-yeshiva-boys-davening-for-idf-soldiers/
As an aside, he once shared that one of the most moving moments of his life was when he passed a soldier who was standing guard near Haifa in the morning and he observed the soldier putting on Tefillin. He broke down in tears as it suddenly hit him how far we had come as Jews in a Jewish State.
He's definitely not the rabbi to criticise. If anyone is bound to bring about that gradual change that is very much needed in the Charedi community, it is sages of his ilk.
I'm not hearing the video the way you are. He calls the DL soldier a Talmid Chacham, he is thanking him for sacrificing a huge part of his life for the nation, not just for his halachic questions, and he even explicitly says that even if he was no longer religious he would be praiseworthy. You are right that he's does not say "you all need to go out and enlist now", but this is precisely the path that will help reform the social mores to where enlisting is an acceptable alternative.
My friend, can we relax a bit? You're right, Rav Asher Weiss shlita did not say what David Ohsie said. You're absolutely right to correct him. But can't we assume it was a mistake, like he watched the video once and wrote his impression rather than what was actually said (happens to me all the time...)?
"I just watched the video, Rav Asher Weiss didn't say he would still be praiseworthy, he said that even if he left religion no one could blame him." This corrects the record, which is the main goal of responding. What does the accusation of lying, and the 'unless you just want to say that yourself' add?
Thank you for your comment on civility. I don't think that what I said was wrong. I was not quoting him. It seems certainly correct that he was not conditioning his praise of the soldier on his religiosity based on his comments about understanding if he left religion. It seems obvious to me that he is saying this because he has such admiration for is sacrifice for the nation. If you have another interpretation of his short statement, I'd like to hear it.
Your interpretation of what he said may be correct, but its an interpretation. You wrote 'he explicitly said' something, which others will read as you saying "he said the following words," even if you didnt mean it that way.
My wife showed me this video last night, along with another of the soldier in question saying a bracha under the chuppa of one of his buddies. We were both very moved, but also both had pretty much the same reaction you did: We found it troubling, and said it wasn't at all what we would have said (or at least *all* of what we would have said), but at the same time it's a lot better than what it usually being said to these sorts of audiences. We'll see.
In that context, I have to share a pleasant thought I just had, seeing that Gallant has plans to draft a few thousand charedim who aren't actually learning, to start. If (and this is a big if) he (and, more importantly, Bibi) is being honest and if (big if) this actually happens, again, it's not ideal, but it may be a much bigger step than you might think, for this reason: The charedim have dug their heels in *so* deep, refusing to even consider the drafting of dropouts, that any step is a blow against their absolutist stance- which may then, please God, lead to the whole thing falling down. "We absolutely refuse to have our dropouts drafted! It would be a disaster!" "We've just drafted your dropouts. No disaster. What's your excuse now?"
It's not like they won't pivot immediately, but the facts will remain.
Incidentally, I believe the name of the soldier is Ari Shpitz.
Speculation: There are two possible fallouts from this.
1) What will the reaction of those who were promised that draft was a modern day cantonist decree- יהרג ועל יעבר- to be met with the halachic imperative to make ירידה? When none of that will happen, will there be disenchantment or reassessment of uncompromising purism?
2) This new Charedi enlistment will start small. There should more than enough recruits among the non-learners. Indeed, we can expect a surplus. Some will serve, and some will continue in Yeshiva learning, wanting in diligence. But who decides? What system will be utilized for the selection? A lottery or strict objective criteria? Or some combination of family influence, protexia or money? Or paleskin khappers?
This is silly.
"Dunce." These are our alleged moral superiors.
Strong criticism is not the same as inappropriate language. A ben torah is supposed to be refined at all times. Not that we see it on these pages, but of course real benei torah do not frequent blogs.
Yes but they volunteer. There are
plenty of dropouts who don’t. So who is the dunce?
"Silly". These are our alleged moral superiors.
Try legilimency in addition to insults. If that doesn't work, the imperius curse could be a last resort option, though I've heard tell they ban people from the comments section for that...
No, I'm only making procedural comments right now, not substantive ones. I prefer not to bandy substance with cowards who hide behind ever-changing avatars, particularly those that are rather peculiar marriages of pop and yeshivish culture. Reb Meir Simcha and Voldemort juxtaposed is certainly signature, I'll give you that though.
There are 2 separate issues which are related, one Charedim refusing to serve, the other is Charedim not even acknowledging the fact that there are religious soldiers risking their lives every day so that we can live in this country (or live anywhere in effect).
Although these are related issues, they need to be addressed separately - and you have written about them separately.
This video seems to go a very long way to address the second issue, lack of acknowledgement that there are religious soldiers in the army. The fact that it didn't address the first issue does not diminish the importance of at least acknowledging and having Hakartot HaTov for the hundreds of thousands of soldiers (and the families) who are literally risking their lives so other people can sit in the Beit Midrash and learn.
My bigger question is how mainstream this video is. I know people from the DL community who regard themselves as Talmidim of Rav Weiss in this video, I do not know how much influence he has within the mainstream Charedi world.
Acknowledge religious soldiers? Heck, they don't acknowledge soldiers, period.
Nachum, we have heard you make these comments earlier. By official estimates, there are 1.3 million Haredim In the State of Israel alone. You seem to be a reasonably-minded person (if a bit bit focused on this crusade). Still, does it make any sense to claim: "THEY don't acknowledge soldiers". Is it indeed possible that not all Haredim think and speak the same way on this issue?
Obviously when we speak of groups we speak in generalities.
1.3 million is a ridiculously high number, by the way.
Perhaps you should keep your critique to theoreticals and ideology, and not be so quick to generalize and publicly delegitimize entire groups of Jews (Yeshivish, Chasidic and Sefardi), many of whom are just as sincere, intelligent and G-d fearing as you.
You'd accomplish a lot more on this blog if you wrote articles on what the IDF needs to change to make the environment acceptable for Chareidi. It will be a lot more successful than what you are doing now.
If Chareidim felt their standards of Kedusha and Kashrus were kept the enlistment numbers would skyrocket.
Not true. There is already a charedi hesder yeshiva, and another two opening, and there is not "skyrocketing" enlistment. Chareid opposition is not about kedusha and kashrus.
Here I can put my money where my mouth is. I will bet 10 to 1 odds in your favor for a hundred thousand dollars,. Even if the Army makes and follows all the demands of the charedim they will still not go to the army. Anyone willing to take up my challenge???
The reason the charedim don't want to go serve, has nothing to do with Torah learning, nothing to do with their lifestyle, it is simply a case of "GETTING OUT OF DOING THEIR DUTY TO THEIR COUNTRY" why risk your life, if to can hoodwink society and get others to do the hard work. while you stay safe in your sheltered environment.
Notice how they move from reason to reason........
* Torah protects - if they couldn't find sources, they would say Shabbos or Tiffilah protects
* We have some that go to the army - why bother the rest, you are only out to get us
* The army wants only to shmad us - we wont let it happen
* They army does not need more soldiers - it is a smoke screen
* When the army appoints frum commanders - we will go (sure)
* The army does not want us - we are a burden to them
Here are the newer latest ones.....
* We are nebach to "shvach" (weak) to fight,- how can we hold a rifle straight
* The chlonim also don't go - see 10 % of Tel Aviv get out of it
* The Gidolim know better than everyone else what is right - honor street cleaners instead
More coming - just stay tuned
It is so foolish to argue with them - they simply are not going! The only thing that might change their minds - is a hard jail cell, like the rest of society are offered if they refuse.
Good summary of their tapdance routine. After the war, we will see a massive backlash against those who refused to serve and separated themselves from the כלל. It would be smart for haredi politicians and supposed leaders to at least appear more moderate, but that is not their way.
I disagree. I think their refusal to serve has everything to do with their desire to preserve the insular chareidi lifestyle (which, as their behavior readily demonstrates, cannot withstand exposure to the outside world).
You are right - I forgot to put that down as another excuse.
Didn't your own daughter writte an oped on this very blog describing the religious challenges!? Cmon man.
Yes, because she is in the general army, not hesder!
To paraphrase Galileo, “and still… she serves”.
“Religious challenges” are no reason to shirk one’s societal responsibilities.
what communities are those hesder bachurim from?
In order to avoid the continuing fiasco of hillul Hashem, the Roshei Yeshivot should be running to the army to begin working together on wqays to draft yeshiva students.
yes, and visa versa
Since the Haredim claim the crown of Torah for themselves, they are the ones who should be really worried about hillul Hashem. Maybe they should tuck in their tzitzit and bare their heads before proclaiming their refusal to serve in order to lessen the hillul Hashem involved.
Right but the army which has a shortage should be running to accomodate them which they're not. it's been decades and there are still religious issues in religious units.
Can you define "kedusha" and "kashrus"? (It's called "kashrut" in Israel, by the way.) IDF kashrut is already up to charedi standards and is strict especially in religious units, which- shocker!- exist. As to "kedusha," that's pretty vague, but I assume you mean giiiiirrrllllzzz. So let me assure you, your average charedi encounters a lot less "kedusha" walking down the streets of an Israeli city in summertime than he's ever going to encounter in the IDF. And as best I know no charedi keeps himself from walking down the streets.
chareidim will only trust their badaatzim and in the שטח there are definetly issues. people bring their own food and cook in the kitchen. there's a בסיס טירונות which very often tries to get ביניישים to put חיילות on the stretcher as part of a תרגיל. it's been years and they often make the same mistakes with religious soldiers.
If it's a completely religious unit, cooking one's own food will not be an issue.
And yes, at some point a line is going to have to be drawn. Demanding one's own badatz is, I'm sorry, a sign of halakhic immaturity, and yes, nebach you'll have to go with one form of mehadrin instead of another when you interact with other people.
Right i was arguing from the chareidi perspective where they dont eat unless its a kashrus they trust. The army should be willing to make concessions to chareidi standards just like they do for טבעונים if theres a manpower shortage. I agree chareidim should draft but its not like the army has been super accommodating of high religious standards. You have friends in the army? Hesder guys?
"Demanding one's own badatz is, I'm sorry, a sign of halakhic immaturity"
Might be. But it's also a sign of policy immaturity if the government refuses to provide badatz food knowing that this is a major obstacle to charedi army integration.
I do think Nachal Charedi already provides badatz food though, presumably the same would be true of other charedi units.
Its a huge issue in hesder! Ask a חייל בייניש! You still interact with other units. Its not the whole גדוד which is religious! How big do you think these units are? Ive seen מוצבים. There are definitely many חילונים!
You think a soldier will never have to put women on a stretcher? If he can't do it in training than how well can he do it in real life?
of course he will! nobody's thinking of צניעות in battle. it's פיקוח נפש! we don't train on שבת but we obviuosly guard and fight on שבת. training is a different story entirely
"Can you define "kedusha" and "kashrus""
Kashrus: A dietary standard that excuses me from eating where I don't want to be.
Kedusha: A religious standard that excuses me from going where I don't want to go
I don't know what you're talking about. Thousands of yir'ei shamayim do not walk down the streets in areas where they might encounter a lack of tzniyut.
Yeah and these are not cute little "chumras" btw. The gemara calls someone who goes on a path with a lady barefoot or showing her knees or arms (the gemara only mentions that the women are washing clothes; the rishonim explain that their normally covered body parts are uncovered then) when he could avoid it- a *rasha*! That's strong language is there is any.
We're talking to a community who don't cover their arms as par for the course. So yes we need accommodations on both sides.
כדאיכא דרכה אחרינא
Not barefoot. Everybody revealed much of their foot back then. Men, women, boys and girls. Shocking, I know.
"If Chareidim felt their standards ..."
What do you mean by "felt"? That they've been misinformed?
My Israeli family is sick of what people like you are saying. My nephew who is completely orthodox has served months since October 7. First up north abd now in Gaza.
Rabbi Slifkin, who is not part of the haredi community, should be making proposals on behalf of the haredi community?
Isn't that this whole blog!?
I think he's advocating that haredim come up with a plan or have one imposed on them.
Gallant has a plan and it's up to haredim to either counter or have it imposed.
I think you do a significant disservice to every other post of yours on the subject by criticizing Rav Asher Weiss for this video. This needs to be praised, not criticized.
Not everything that doesn't line up exactly with one's views should be fodder for criticism. There is so much goodness here that ought to be praised.
I don't think that you understood what I'm saying. I'm saying that the video is praiseworthy for a charedi audience, but not for a non-charedi audience.
Chaim, perhaps you can answer a question.
Do you agree with the assertion of the OP and his acolytes that שלב ב is not the army?
I saw this video yesterday and my reaction during the first part was like many of you here that finally a Chareidi/ Chassidic (R.Asher is a Klausenburger Chassid) finally has broken the iron curtain. but then disappointment set in. although he praises the young man he however puts in a kudo - this is not us! thr tone of condesension as if the real Chareidim el Dvar Hashem are us but "they" are not as bad as we think! the arrogance and complete disregard to the halachik imperative to join in this milchemet mitzva made me sick. BTW on an earlier post a commenter tried to disavow that this is a milchemet mitzva by saying you need sanhedrin for it to be that, is incorrect. it is the opposite michemt mitzva does not need sanhedrin, milchemet reshut does see Rambam hil Melachim 5:2. my argument with him was fundemental about what halacha is so i did not bother to correct him.
RNS,
I had exactly the same thoughts as you.
I suspect that Rav Asher Weiss also believes the same as you.
But he is trying to tread a very fine line by extolling the virtues of our soldiers, while at the same time showing some allegiance to the Chareidi camp.
If he follows Torah Hashkofo, then he should really be saying that now is not the time to be focusing on increasing our learning. (עיין רמב"ם הלכות מלכים ומלחמות).
He knows that, but he can't say it, otherwise he could get ostracised, banned, put in Cherem or any other terms you want to use to describe what happened to you.
It's a pity that there are no charedi rabbonim showing the same willingness to sacrifice that our soldiers are showing.
As Rav Asher Weiss shows and knows, it's the Rabbonim who are awe-struck by the soldiers (and not the other way round).
The military experience, especially in a war, fast-tracks growing up and maturing.
Sitting in Yeshiva and learning with no responsibilities, even to your own family, does not encourage growth and maturity.
Find me a Rov, Godol Hador, or greater who has grown and matured much since he left his parents' home as a teenager.
R Weiss is a community leader who has massive responsibilities for innumerable people. That is not comparable to the average guy in kollel.
If you meet Rav Asher Weiss in person, you will see quite a short man in physical height.
But you will soon find out that he is a giant with broad shoulders to match.
Despite being a giant, he is accessible (directly) to everyone.
Richie, one of the reasons why so many Yeshiva Bachurim are inspired is due to their exposure to the Rebbeim, Talmidei Chachamim and Avreichim they encountered while in Yeshivos. Hundreds of formerly Modern Orthodox youth currently learn in the Mirrer Yeshiva, Ner Yisrael and other traditional Yeshivos. They left the path of their families precisely for this reason - when studying in Yeshiva in real life they discovered how much they had missed out, and how mistaken were the negative impressions they had been given of Rebbeim, Haredim and Roshei Yeshiva - many of whom actually have outstanding and sterling character.
Thanks for your reply.
Your comments could provoke RNS to write maybe 5 further blogs about the comments that you have made.
But this Blog is about the "Chareidi-Army" issue.
I'd be happy to continue the thread that this has "evolved" into off-line, if you wish.
"Hundreds." "Modern Orthodox."
You're not...from these parts, are you?
Does anyone know how I can help this soldier?
Evidently the ideal contemporary haredi response to violence is the Har Nof massacre. Daven with kavannah, have somebody else wipe up the blood with disposable diapers afterwards. Seems sound.
RDNS, this is the second time (I think) that you have attacked Rav Asher Weiss specifically. (I think the other time was about the efficacy of having some's zechus for learning transferred to someone else.) You of all people should know that even people that you respect can disagree with you, and even if you agree with most of your opinions.
It is a mistake to cast Rav Asher Weiss the way you do. He is one (maybe the only) Charedi rav who tells people to stop learning and get a job, the only one who says that the charedi system of having all boys learn in Yeshiva forever is destined for failure. He is downright liberal for charedi circles, extremely down to earth, speaks to all עידוֹת, and practical in his approach to modern Halacha. The fact that he said in a schmuz to (probably) American yeshiva students (remember - he's speaking in English, not hebrew) that they need to have huge Hakaras Hatov to this soldier *even if he had gone off the derech* and understand that there are תלמידי חכמים outside of their purview should be great חיזוק. Rav Asher Weiss generally agrees with you, there's no reason to go off the handle on him.
At the risk of going off on a דרשה, the Gemara (Avoda Zara 5b) says that אדם הראשון was a "כפוי טובה", an ingrate. He was much more than that, and violated worse איסורים than just not being grateful. But a core issue with him was that he didn't not acknowledge what God had done for him, and that is what lead him to not listen to God at all.
The כפיית טובה from the charedi sector is part of the core issue, not "icing on the cake". (This is a response to those who complained here that this is a low bar.)
Moshe, read the comments preceding and following yours.
Sorry - I forgot to make clear that there's no עבירה in telling American yeshiva students to have הכרת הטוב even if they don't choose that way of life, when they actually have no need to make such a choice. Unless RDNS is one of the ppl that says that even chutznikim are legally, morally and theologically required to join the IDF?
Thank you for explicating so clearly what I had in mind with my earlier comment.
I'll just add that there is a deep irony here in R. Slifkin not being able to מכיר טוב the incredible progress and bravery contained within Rav Asher Weiss' statement.
If Rav Weiss grew up in a community which wouldn't have hakarat hatov to someone who got their limbs blown off to protect them, then there's progress. Did he? And what bravery is there? What does he stand to lose?
There's an expression "there's no such thing as a free lunch".
Then there's the HALACHA that, in a "milchemet mitzvah", essentially a mandantory war, the Torah noted exemptions (just married, not yet built a house, etc) DO NOT APPLY. Virtually EVERY war that Israel fights is a "milchemet mitzvah" (not a "milchemet reshut", a permissable war).
Therefore, while learning, etc., is important, it is NOT a substitute for some means of service to the nation. And PLEASE don't tell me the nonsense that it's a secular gov't. How many of the Kings of Israel were not only anti-religious but anti-Israel, too. And yet the eligible soldiers fought.
EVERYthing you write is UNTRUE. The WARS are certainly NOT milchemes mitzvah AT all.
Learn the SUGYA again. Milchemes MITZVAH does not mean MANDATORY war, something is LOST in the translation.
You are wrong. Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:1, Shulchan Aruch OH 329:6, etc
Shulchan Aruch OH has nothing to do with milchemes mitzvah, it is a halacha in hilchos Shabbos, whether we can rely on the fact that money will placate the gangsters.
Melachim 5:1 has been hashed out many times. The war to ruin Hamas may be necessary, just, important, and a good idea. None of those have anything to do with milchemes mitzvah. Milchemes mitzvah is when your town is attacked and you need to get rid of the attackers. Not when their future ability to attack must be stopped.
Your whole country was attacked, not just your town. And unless STRINGENT action is taken, it will continue to occur.
Two Orthodox Rabbis in my area of Jerusalem gave (multiple) shiurim on the subject, and I have the citations they used to support their position. Blee neder I will get them out to you, so you, too, will understand the reality that currently escapes you.
In terms of milchemet mitzva, there is no distinction between Jews living in the state of Israel and Jews living in, say, New Jersey. Are you calling for all able-bodied men from New Jersey to come to Israel to fight?
i dont think it would reasonable.
Right but i think it depends on jurisdiction. The מלך would be מוציא את העם. Dosent need the פסק of סנהדרין like מלחמת רשות. Its more of a national מצווה than a communal one. Its just the responsibility of the עם to be available.
My thoughts exactly. He might as well have been talking about someone who got hurt in a traffic accident.
Except we all know he isn't, and that makes a difference.
Which makes it all the more troubling. Imagine your embarrassment if after talking to someone missing limbs you discovered that he had been injured fighting Hamas and you spoke to him as if he had only been in a traffic accident!
But...he knew all along. I really don't see where you're going with this.
The haredi gdolim need to give some serious thought as to what will happen to their status quo after this war. Big changes will be coming, and it's more likely than ever that a grieving non-haredi electorate will find a new consensus regarding the Palestinians, our economy, and the size and staffing of the IDF. People will not forget the position of haredi leadership against any form of military or national service. There are likely to be serious cuts to "non-essential" government spending of all kinds.
Those who respect them as gedolim, still will. and those who won't, never did
Rav Weiss doesn't say anything about kiruv, so I'm not sure what you mean by that. He is speaking to studenst of a Chareidi on their own terms. His message is beautiful and a welcome change both in tone and context from what these boys probably hear on a daily basis, in and out of yeshiva.
So you fault him for what? Not standing up, tossing his black hat to the ground and saying, "Rabbosai, we are all wrong! Lo zu haderech! We must enlist and fight!" And were he to do that, what would happen next? Would they listen to him? Or would they laugh and declare him pasul and move on to the next one?