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David Friedman's avatar

Ditto Norman Kahan’s observation. I can’t turn my usually skeptical eye away from the Ingathering of Jews from all corners of the Globe , the flowering of what was a desolate land less than a century ago, the city of Jerusalem spreading all over the hills of ancient Judea . It should not lead us to idiocy in making policy decisions but… I for one am happy to be enthralled with seeing Prophetic pronouncements coming to life.

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Ezra Brand's avatar

"seeing Prophetic pronouncements coming to life".

Worth pointing out that from a Rationalist perspective (see the blog name) it's literally a *self-fulfilling prophecy*

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Yekutiel Weiss's avatar

We believe in human action with G-d's help to accomplish goals.

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David Friedman's avatar

God helps those who help themselves. Autoemancipation was the title of Leon Pinsker’s pre Herzl tract.

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Norman Kahan's avatar

Surprised that you don’t think we are in the early stages of Redemption. What more do you need?

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Just Curious's avatar

Why does it matter?

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Charles Hall's avatar

Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik z'tz'l was also skeptical about *reishit tzmichat ge’ulateinu*. And he was the leader of World Mizrachi.

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Yekutiel Weiss's avatar

I guess to lend religious status, I guess, to the movement.But I don't think his iews reflect all of Mizrachi.

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Yekutiel Weiss's avatar

I guess to lend religious status, I guess, to the movement.But I don't think his iews reflect all of Mizrachi.

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Charles Hall's avatar

Mizrachi was always a religious movement.

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Charles Hall's avatar

"it would have been better had the state not come into existence, as there wouldn’t have been such Arab hatred."

Has he never spoken to a Mizrachi Jew whose family had to flee an Arab country because of persecution??? Is he that insulated from the real world????? How can anyone trust such a rabbi to pasken correctly if he is living in a cave?

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Harold Landa's avatar

I am biased in this perspective. My parents both went through Auschwitz. It’s the גאולה.

That being said, they also clearly equated fascism with socialism/communism, and we’re soured on moving there in 1951.

Note: most people are uniformed about Nazism: they do not know what the letter Z stands for

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Charles Hall's avatar

"they also clearly equated fascism with socialism/communism"

If they equated socialism with communism, they didn't know what they were talking about. Attlee and Ben-Gurion were nothing like Stalin and Mao.

"they do not know what the letter Z stands for"

It does not mean socialism in the sense that Friedrich Ebert meant it. A lot of right wing propagandists falsely claim otherwise.

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Harold Landa's avatar

My father worked as slave labor for a mining company owned by the state. Did I misunderstand?

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Charles Hall's avatar

Was it in the UK or Israel?

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Harold Landa's avatar

While he was at Auschwitz. My mom was a slave laborer for Tote- am arms manufacturer owned by the state.

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Charles Hall's avatar

As expected. Not the UK or Israel.

The Nazis not only weren't socialists, but the actual socialists were the only political party to oppose making Hitler a dictator in 1933. Every other party voted the wrong way. Within a few months, every socialist in Germany was in exile, in a concentration camp or other incarceration facility, in hiding, or dead.

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Harold Landa's avatar

So….that wasn’t the government controlling the means of production?

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Yekutiel Weiss's avatar

2,000 plus years of galut with no "self fulfilled" prophecy.

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Ezra Brand's avatar

Zionism is (as is well-known) in large part an effect of the 19th century rise in nationalism.

Compare the 19th century unification of Germany, Italy, etc etc

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Yekutiel Weiss's avatar

Hashem works through History.

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Yekutiel Weiss's avatar

RNS's emphasis on "survival" as the essential need for Army service is good for the general public as it applies to many states. But to me and many others, Israel is special, to the Jewish people and to many religious people the spiritual dimension is fundemental,for many non-religious Jews too.

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