And why do we hear you bemoaning endlessly the suffering of soldiers and their families and not even once the suffering of palestinians whom this government is currently crushing in Gaza and the West Bank with your beloved army?
Correct, it's the same thing. I don't really care about Palestinian suffering because, aside from the fact that their side started the war and refuses to end it, they are not my people. Just like the average person doesn't really care about the suffering in Sudan. The problem is that not everyone acknowledges that charedim have seceded from the Jewish People.
So happy that you’ve used the word “seceded”. That’s the word I use much to the shock of many Jews who are not part of the Charedi sect. They think I’m nuts. But there’s no better word for what they’ve done.
What categorizes the Jewish people as a nation? The torah, and the fact that we all follow it, of course. Well who actually does that, other than the chareidim? No one. If they would, they wouldn't so strongly that yeshiva students should serve in the army, where maintaining spirituality is next to impossible. Obviously, spiritual growth isn't too important to you guys. So who seceded from the jewish people?
"What categorizes the Jewish people as a nation? The torah..."
So you're saying that if one observes the Torah, it's impossible to seceded by definition? You should be aware of sources that discuss the matter. You know the רמב"ם on פורש מן הציבור, and you should look into מדרש הגדול, במדבר לב,ה on the בני גד ובבני ראובן- that even though they separated from the wider community due to strict observance of מצות, they were exiled first.
"next to impossible"
That's not true. Look around and you see many who have succeeded.
"What categorizes the Jewish people as a nation? The torah, and the fact that we all follow it, of course."
Based on what?
Hashem chose us as his nation before we he gave us the Torah, and keeps us as his nation even when we don't follow it. The Torah was given to a nation & for a nation.
It's evident in both Tanach and Chazal that our connection to each other is more important to Hashem than our connection to him.
I'm in no way saying that we don't need to keep the Torah, of course we do. But it's not the Torah that makes us a nation.
And you took the liberty of assuming that meant he was morally bankrupt, along with every other Jew. Taking much fewer liberties, you are just some anti-Semitic troll, whether or not you have Jewish ancestry.
Tragically innocent civilians always suffer and die in war. Perhaps it’s best not to start one in the first place, with an unprovoked invasion and the most savage single day massacre and mass abductions this century.
The day Hamas disarms, surrenders and releases all hostages is the day the war ends, as everyone knows but refuses to acknowledge. This is as true today as it was on Oct 8. All subsequent needless suffering and civilian deaths are wholly the fault of Hamas and their terror enablers in the international community.
If only such supposed humanitarians crying crocodile tears cared more for Palestinian lives than they despise Jewish ones….
Hamas’ primary strategy of massacring Jews to wet the appetite of the antisemitic world, then maximizing civilian suffering to embolden the full flowering of millions’ most basest instincts - the hatred for the “collective Jew” - has been triumphantly vindicated beyond their wildest dreams, to the point that even “court” Jews have succumbed.
The Ethos of Tanach is to be aggressive and tireless in JUSTIFIED war. Perhaps not pleasant in 2025, but it's there. and we learn from the Torah. Reread it.
If you equate the suffering of Palestinians "whom this government is currently crushing " with the suffering of Israeli soldiers sacrificing time, , earnings and often life and limb I can only suggest you check your yichus - or alternately have someone explain to you what is going on in Israel and Gaza if that is the source of your ignorance.
These are the palestinians (not Hamas) that participated in the slaughter of Jews on October 7, that danced in the streets happy as can be on October 7, that passed out candy to children on October 7. Sorry but I have no rachmanut for them. I'm sure there are a small number that are blameless. I hope they got out early.
1) Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in August 2005 giving them a defacto Palestinian state.
2) Hamas was elected by the local population and spent billions of aid money building a jihadist death cult enterprise including a massive tunnel complex, sending rockets into Israel every couple of years.
3) Israel is then brutally attacked in a genocidal pogrom by this defacto Palestinian state in October 2023 and they also take hostages
4) Israel defends itself like every other non suicidal country would and does everything it can to return its hostages home
5) Hamas imbeds itself in the civilian population to increase the likelihood of civilian casualties and fabricates lies about famine by stealing all the humanitarian aid
And we’re the bad guys?? Give you’re brainwashed head a shake, so you can start thinking rationally.
Dear Natan, I feel so sorry for you. You are suffering from CDS (Chareidi Derangement Syndrome). I think you should seek a mental health expert immediately.
Well written. Agree with your sentiments. The Chareidi world is certainly on the wrong path and needs great reform. The idea of hiring students to create a Soyuz so they can eat meat is itself such a perversion of our Judaism.
When you say the chareidy community is on the wrong path, what you are saying is that the only people who actually follow what the Torah says are on the wrong path. Ouch.
Looks like R' Slifkin has reopened comments to non-subscribers.
Cue the return of the usual crowd of charedi trolls. A warm welcome to today's trolls, 'Yakov Greenberg' and 'Jew Well'. True to form, they contribute nothing of value. An AI charedi-bot would offer more substance. Though to be fair, maybe they're deliberately keeping the quality this low to reassure us they're human ;)
Dude- you didn't get what I was trying to say. I meant that you did not express any actual content in your comment. I, on the other hand, did, whether or not you agree with it. Simple enough, you should understand now.
One day you will pay dearly for belittling great men. Search your heart and check if you actually believe in what you are saying, or its just a product of strife and upset at what the rabbis said about your book. I personally have a connection with Rabbi Elya Ber Wachtfogel Shlita, and he is a truly great man, and an unbelievable genius too. Far smarter than yourself, if that needed to be said. You will come to regret publicly berating him. Don't you know what it says in the talmud that one who embarasses a Talmid chacham is an apikorus?
"or its just a product of strife and upset at what the rabbis said about your book" No, most non-charedim feel the same way.
"Don't you know what it says in the talmud that one who embarasses a Talmid chacham is an apikorus?" Don't know you know that it says that a Talmid Chacham with no daas is worse than a stinking carcass?
Are you sure your ideas aren't just a product of this: "My first was twenty-one years ago, just over midway through my life so far. This was when my books were notoriously banned as being heretical by 24 of the “Gedolim” of the charedi world. Up until that point, I thought that the charedi world represented traditional normative Judaism, and the Gedolim were wise leaders that we were duty-bound to obey. Then all of a sudden they were declaring me public enemy number one! Fortunately, I got through that episode, and I eventually realized that charedi Judaism is anything but traditional and normative, along with it being theologically, intellectually, and eventually morally bankrupt." Maybe all your rants are because you are upset at the chareidy community, and not really rooted in true belief. The torah does say shochad ye-aver einei chachamim. I mean, why else would you be constantly posting negative things about the chareidim? Even those who disagree with them don't make it their life's priority to knock them at every oppurtunity, because what do they have from that? Obviously, you have something from doing this, and that something is you are retaliating against them, and revenge is always sweet. I speak the truth, my friend. Why don't you revert back to being chareidy? I can't argue that you aren't a bright guy. You've got potential, if you would embrace the right path.
What exactly classifies someone as being great in your book? And I ask you, have you ever seen anyone more committed to upholding Jewish values like kedusha etc. than Rabbi Elya Ber? Please answer honestly.
I'll give you Rav Melamed's definition of greatness: "Gadlut beTorah necessitates an all-embracing, fully accountable handling of serious issues facing the generation." I've never seen Rav Elya Ber demonstrate any of that, and instead I've seen him demonstrate the exact opposite. (I've also seen him endorse the dismissal of endless Geonim, Rishonim, Acharonim and Gedolim - see https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/rav-elya-ber-dismisses-geonim-rishonim)
There's more to Jewish values than "kedusha." Moshe Rabbeinu spoke about a Jewish value in last week's parasha - nosei b'ol chavero in its most powerful application.
I remember recently someone in the community where R Elya Ber lives was shamed. The great rabbi was unable to fall asleep that night, and cried consistently through the night over the pain of that man. I would say he is nose be-ol im chaveiro if there ever was one. He has a phenomenal reputation for being an unbelievably caring man.
In the entire tirade, I did not once see addressed the power of Torah learning and the merit it provides, and the utter devastation of causing its disruption. This just happens to be the reason for the chareidy rabbis' perspective. So if you would like to debate their point, please address this. Or it may just be that you don't give to much respect to torah study, or believe in its power. Which would be a tragedy, that a jew could believe this way. Maybe you just got ticked off against the chareidy community when the controversy about your books happened, in which case you would be speaking out of hate, and not what you truly believe deep down is the objective truth.
I ask you the following- do you really think that the salvation of israel and its people could come about through people who violate the torah, like virtually the entire military administration and the government? Does that sound rational to you, that God's plan should work that way?
a) Rav Kook ZTVK'L says that Medinat Yisrael - even with those that are not yet Torah observant but that love the land and protect it - is pushing forward the Messianic Redemption
b) The Chareidim are not the only ones that treasure Torah. Hesder guys would love to get a break and return to the Batei Midrash also.
There have been countless gedolei yisroel in the last hundred years. ONE of them is notorious for having the view you just mentioned- R' Kook. Job well done. Don't just pick the one that suits you. I don't call that looking for truth.
I don’t mind in the least if charedi communities in chul want to send millions of dollars to their counterparts in yeshivot, which are then spent here.
These communities would never donate to Israel under any other circumstances, so it’s a new source of revenue.
And why do we hear you bemoaning endlessly the suffering of soldiers and their families and not even once the suffering of palestinians whom this government is currently crushing in Gaza and the West Bank with your beloved army?
In my eyes it's the same thing.
Correct, it's the same thing. I don't really care about Palestinian suffering because, aside from the fact that their side started the war and refuses to end it, they are not my people. Just like the average person doesn't really care about the suffering in Sudan. The problem is that not everyone acknowledges that charedim have seceded from the Jewish People.
So happy that you’ve used the word “seceded”. That’s the word I use much to the shock of many Jews who are not part of the Charedi sect. They think I’m nuts. But there’s no better word for what they’ve done.
There's no reason for them to be shocked, the charedi leaders are pretty explicit about it if you pay attention to what they say.
What categorizes the Jewish people as a nation? The torah, and the fact that we all follow it, of course. Well who actually does that, other than the chareidim? No one. If they would, they wouldn't so strongly that yeshiva students should serve in the army, where maintaining spirituality is next to impossible. Obviously, spiritual growth isn't too important to you guys. So who seceded from the jewish people?
"Well who actually does that, other than the chareidim?" Actually, the ONLY ones following the Torah are the Dati community.
"What categorizes the Jewish people as a nation? The torah..."
So you're saying that if one observes the Torah, it's impossible to seceded by definition? You should be aware of sources that discuss the matter. You know the רמב"ם on פורש מן הציבור, and you should look into מדרש הגדול, במדבר לב,ה on the בני גד ובבני ראובן- that even though they separated from the wider community due to strict observance of מצות, they were exiled first.
"next to impossible"
That's not true. Look around and you see many who have succeeded.
Only Chareidim follow the Torah?
"What categorizes the Jewish people as a nation? The torah, and the fact that we all follow it, of course."
Based on what?
Hashem chose us as his nation before we he gave us the Torah, and keeps us as his nation even when we don't follow it. The Torah was given to a nation & for a nation.
It's evident in both Tanach and Chazal that our connection to each other is more important to Hashem than our connection to him.
I'm in no way saying that we don't need to keep the Torah, of course we do. But it's not the Torah that makes us a nation.
Alas it seems the whole jewish people has become morally bankrupt.
Pretty sure that not many British or Americans (or Jews) got upset about the suffering of innocent Germans in WWII. Were they all morally bankrupt?
and now we get whataboutism
"Alas"? You came to exactly the conclusion you wanted. Which was also your starting premise.
course not. Rabbi Slifkin, who I otherwise deeply respect, just said even he doesn't care.
And you took the liberty of assuming that meant he was morally bankrupt, along with every other Jew. Taking much fewer liberties, you are just some anti-Semitic troll, whether or not you have Jewish ancestry.
My ancestry, again?
My ancestry is not wanting in any way, and they did not, till now, participate in oppressing others.
But that's not the point at all. What matters is what's happening now.
WAR IS HELL. William Tecumseh Sherman Union Commander to a gathering of the GAR in 1885.
This is the WORST form of urban warfare imaginable, created by Hamas.
I assume that you also decry the bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945? Too many innocent Japanese lives lost?
If so , you are a well meaning, sensitive naive fool.
I'll be that kind of fool a thousand times.
You are, don't worry.
Tragically innocent civilians always suffer and die in war. Perhaps it’s best not to start one in the first place, with an unprovoked invasion and the most savage single day massacre and mass abductions this century.
The day Hamas disarms, surrenders and releases all hostages is the day the war ends, as everyone knows but refuses to acknowledge. This is as true today as it was on Oct 8. All subsequent needless suffering and civilian deaths are wholly the fault of Hamas and their terror enablers in the international community.
If only such supposed humanitarians crying crocodile tears cared more for Palestinian lives than they despise Jewish ones….
Hamas are evil, so let's be just like them. What a good path we're on.
Hamas’ primary strategy of massacring Jews to wet the appetite of the antisemitic world, then maximizing civilian suffering to embolden the full flowering of millions’ most basest instincts - the hatred for the “collective Jew” - has been triumphantly vindicated beyond their wildest dreams, to the point that even “court” Jews have succumbed.
because the government is playing right into the plan.
I'll wear your insults like a crown, thank you.
The Ethos of Tanach is to be aggressive and tireless in JUSTIFIED war. Perhaps not pleasant in 2025, but it's there. and we learn from the Torah. Reread it.
Please, oh wise one, tell us. How are we like them? In what way?
If you equate the suffering of Palestinians "whom this government is currently crushing " with the suffering of Israeli soldiers sacrificing time, , earnings and often life and limb I can only suggest you check your yichus - or alternately have someone explain to you what is going on in Israel and Gaza if that is the source of your ignorance.
yes of course, it has to do with my yichus obviously. Yichus ie racism that's what rationalist judaism is about these days.
Do you know what Hamas and many of the people in Gaza would like to do to Israel if they had the chance?
"... the suffering of palestinians..."
These are the palestinians (not Hamas) that participated in the slaughter of Jews on October 7, that danced in the streets happy as can be on October 7, that passed out candy to children on October 7. Sorry but I have no rachmanut for them. I'm sure there are a small number that are blameless. I hope they got out early.
So we kill them all. Got it.
So let me get this straight Jew Well.
1) Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in August 2005 giving them a defacto Palestinian state.
2) Hamas was elected by the local population and spent billions of aid money building a jihadist death cult enterprise including a massive tunnel complex, sending rockets into Israel every couple of years.
3) Israel is then brutally attacked in a genocidal pogrom by this defacto Palestinian state in October 2023 and they also take hostages
4) Israel defends itself like every other non suicidal country would and does everything it can to return its hostages home
5) Hamas imbeds itself in the civilian population to increase the likelihood of civilian casualties and fabricates lies about famine by stealing all the humanitarian aid
And we’re the bad guys?? Give you’re brainwashed head a shake, so you can start thinking rationally.
Not a zero sum game. There's no need for one camp to be the exclusive bad guys. On the other hand two wrongs don't make a right.
On the other hand two wrongs don't make a right. - That's nice for 4th grade politics, not so applicable in complex war and combat.
When did he say tht we should kill them all?
"Sorry but I have no rachmanut for them"
How on earth does that equate to saying that we should kill them all?!
Just ignore the idiot troll . . . just throw him to Hamas and that will clarify the issue - for him and for us.
Don't act dumb and put words in mouth. Stop watching CNN, BBC and all the other Jew and Israel-hating media and maybe you'll start to see reality.
How am I putting words in your mouth? That's exactly what you said.
Dear Natan, I feel so sorry for you. You are suffering from CDS (Chareidi Derangement Syndrome). I think you should seek a mental health expert immediately.
Spoken like a true charedi whose family is not fighting for Am Yisrael.
Well written. Agree with your sentiments. The Chareidi world is certainly on the wrong path and needs great reform. The idea of hiring students to create a Soyuz so they can eat meat is itself such a perversion of our Judaism.
When you say the chareidy community is on the wrong path, what you are saying is that the only people who actually follow what the Torah says are on the wrong path. Ouch.
Did you read last week's parasha?
Yes. Did you brush your teeth last night?
You, sir, are not genuinely connecting yourself to am yisrael. You have not internalized the ethos of fighting as espoused in Tanach.
The only smart comment I've seen here. Yakov Greenberg.
Looks like R' Slifkin has reopened comments to non-subscribers.
Cue the return of the usual crowd of charedi trolls. A warm welcome to today's trolls, 'Yakov Greenberg' and 'Jew Well'. True to form, they contribute nothing of value. An AI charedi-bot would offer more substance. Though to be fair, maybe they're deliberately keeping the quality this low to reassure us they're human ;)
Wow. I really gained insight from that comment. I now have a truly new understanding of the issues at hand.
כל הפוסל במומו פוסל
Dude- you didn't get what I was trying to say. I meant that you did not express any actual content in your comment. I, on the other hand, did, whether or not you agree with it. Simple enough, you should understand now.
כל הפוסל במומו פוסל
Is that the extent of your vocabulary?
One day you will pay dearly for belittling great men. Search your heart and check if you actually believe in what you are saying, or its just a product of strife and upset at what the rabbis said about your book. I personally have a connection with Rabbi Elya Ber Wachtfogel Shlita, and he is a truly great man, and an unbelievable genius too. Far smarter than yourself, if that needed to be said. You will come to regret publicly berating him. Don't you know what it says in the talmud that one who embarasses a Talmid chacham is an apikorus?
"or its just a product of strife and upset at what the rabbis said about your book" No, most non-charedim feel the same way.
"Don't you know what it says in the talmud that one who embarasses a Talmid chacham is an apikorus?" Don't know you know that it says that a Talmid Chacham with no daas is worse than a stinking carcass?
Right-that's if he has no daas. Aren't you just a little scared to talk that way about these great men?
I have not seen any evidence of their being great men, and I have seen plenty of evidence of their NOT being great men.
Are you sure your ideas aren't just a product of this: "My first was twenty-one years ago, just over midway through my life so far. This was when my books were notoriously banned as being heretical by 24 of the “Gedolim” of the charedi world. Up until that point, I thought that the charedi world represented traditional normative Judaism, and the Gedolim were wise leaders that we were duty-bound to obey. Then all of a sudden they were declaring me public enemy number one! Fortunately, I got through that episode, and I eventually realized that charedi Judaism is anything but traditional and normative, along with it being theologically, intellectually, and eventually morally bankrupt." Maybe all your rants are because you are upset at the chareidy community, and not really rooted in true belief. The torah does say shochad ye-aver einei chachamim. I mean, why else would you be constantly posting negative things about the chareidim? Even those who disagree with them don't make it their life's priority to knock them at every oppurtunity, because what do they have from that? Obviously, you have something from doing this, and that something is you are retaliating against them, and revenge is always sweet. I speak the truth, my friend. Why don't you revert back to being chareidy? I can't argue that you aren't a bright guy. You've got potential, if you would embrace the right path.
What exactly classifies someone as being great in your book? And I ask you, have you ever seen anyone more committed to upholding Jewish values like kedusha etc. than Rabbi Elya Ber? Please answer honestly.
I'll give you Rav Melamed's definition of greatness: "Gadlut beTorah necessitates an all-embracing, fully accountable handling of serious issues facing the generation." I've never seen Rav Elya Ber demonstrate any of that, and instead I've seen him demonstrate the exact opposite. (I've also seen him endorse the dismissal of endless Geonim, Rishonim, Acharonim and Gedolim - see https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/rav-elya-ber-dismisses-geonim-rishonim)
There's more to Jewish values than "kedusha." Moshe Rabbeinu spoke about a Jewish value in last week's parasha - nosei b'ol chavero in its most powerful application.
I remember recently someone in the community where R Elya Ber lives was shamed. The great rabbi was unable to fall asleep that night, and cried consistently through the night over the pain of that man. I would say he is nose be-ol im chaveiro if there ever was one. He has a phenomenal reputation for being an unbelievably caring man.
In the entire tirade, I did not once see addressed the power of Torah learning and the merit it provides, and the utter devastation of causing its disruption. This just happens to be the reason for the chareidy rabbis' perspective. So if you would like to debate their point, please address this. Or it may just be that you don't give to much respect to torah study, or believe in its power. Which would be a tragedy, that a jew could believe this way. Maybe you just got ticked off against the chareidy community when the controversy about your books happened, in which case you would be speaking out of hate, and not what you truly believe deep down is the objective truth.
"In the entire tirade, I did not once see addressed the power of Torah learning and the merit it provides"
I've already addressed that in detail many times (unlike charedi rabbonim, who never ever analyze it and just give sound bites). Here's one example: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/do-charedim-really-believe-that-torah
Perhaps you can ask the great Rav Elya Ber to write a comprehensive analysis of the parameters of Torah protection.
I ask you the following- do you really think that the salvation of israel and its people could come about through people who violate the torah, like virtually the entire military administration and the government? Does that sound rational to you, that God's plan should work that way?
#just trying to be a rationalist
what on earth does that have to do with this post?
is that your only answer?
a) Rav Kook ZTVK'L says that Medinat Yisrael - even with those that are not yet Torah observant but that love the land and protect it - is pushing forward the Messianic Redemption
b) The Chareidim are not the only ones that treasure Torah. Hesder guys would love to get a break and return to the Batei Midrash also.
There have been countless gedolei yisroel in the last hundred years. ONE of them is notorious for having the view you just mentioned- R' Kook. Job well done. Don't just pick the one that suits you. I don't call that looking for truth.
I don’t mind in the least if charedi communities in chul want to send millions of dollars to their counterparts in yeshivot, which are then spent here.
These communities would never donate to Israel under any other circumstances, so it’s a new source of revenue.
Lol.