Let's not even bring up the disaster that is the current Chief Rabbinate election and what that makes the typical Israeli- about 90% of Israeli Jews, I'd say- think of religion. (The remaining 10% are charedim who don't care.)
You're correct. I loathe the Rabbanut bureaucracy as I do pretty much all the other bloated government ministries and departments. The majority of them can be shut down or shrunk by 70% overnight and we would all get over it after a while.
I personally think Israel could do with about five or six ministries, tops. Some of the others can be folded into these, but a bunch can just be shut down.
1) It's possible, likely even, that a lot of his net worth came from abusing his position within the Chief Rabbinate.
2) It allows the Haredim to execute disproportionate influence over the Torah World, in the same way as they do by having kingmakers in the Knesset. The lenient Sephardic Israeli rabbis like Joseph Mesas and the original Sephardic Chief Rabbi of Israel, Ben-Zion Uziel? They've basically been exiled from history and replaced with the Yosef family (I should note that R' Ovadia Yosef had great respect for R' Mesas and that the process of exiling certain Sephardic rabbis from history was likely not started by him). The Orthodox Union in America and the Chief Rabbinate of England? They don't want their rulings to be inconsistent with those coming from Eretz Yisrael.
I will end with a reading from Pirkei Avot that is inconvenient for the Chief Rabbis - "Shmaya says love work, stay away from mastery over others, and don't become close to the government."
I think the point was originally a compromise (part of the "secular-religious status quo" that the State of Israel had to keep up), but you're right. Governments in the Diaspora liked to have one Rabbi represent the Jewish community, like the Nagid of Egypt or the Chief Rabbi of England. A lot of Israel's institutions are relics of English or Ottoman institutions rather than something classically Jewish or even something new built for Israel's unique needs.
לפני שנה היה דומה שיש תקווה לשינוי. בקול תרועה, הוקמה וועדה בראשות הרב יעקב אריאל שמנתה 40 רבנים המייצגים את הזרמים השונים בציונות הדתית. לאחר קביעת סדרי העבודה שלה, פגשה הוועדה בשורה של רבנים מבני הציונות הדתית שהיו נכונים להתמודד על תפקיד הרב הראשי לישראל. לאחר עבודה קפדנית ודיונים משמעותיים בחרה הוועדה את אב בין הדין, הרב מאיר כהנא כמועמד הציונות הדתית לתפקיד. בחירה מצוינת שזכתה לשבחים רבים.
אלא שככל שהתקרב מועד הבחירות, החלו להישמע בציבור הדתי לאומי עוד ועוד קולות, בעיקר של רבנים מהמחנה החרדי-לאומי שביקשו לאתגר את הבחירה ברב כהנא. במקום ללכת מעיר לעיר ולשכנע במועמדותו של מי שנבחר כמועמד, רבנים שונים, ביניהם כאלו שהיו חברים בוועדה, החלו לפעול להצעת מועמדים אחרים.
הדברים הגיעו לידי כך שהרב אריאל, "החזיר את המנדט" של הוועדה לפוליטיקאים. במכתב נוגה ובטון פגוע, הוא מצר מרות על כך שלמרות שהוועדה פעלה ברצינות ובניקיון כפיים, על דעת כל רבנים מכל קצווי הציונות הדתית, קמו רבים שמערערים על בחירתה.
If the charedim were honest and modest enough not to get involved in a Rabbinate they don't believe in anyway, things would be a lot more straightforward. But there's too much of the old mazooma out there.
I see. It's the charedim's fault that R Yakov Ariel's commision of 30+ dati leumi rabbanim fractured. Of course. Maybe blame R Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld too while you're at it.
R. Lichtenstein asked R. Haymann if, upon seeing a soldier on duty, he simply thanks him for his service. And R. Haymann, the man who literally wrote the book on hakaras hatov, says that he doesn’t!
Why are they so opposed to it? Because, as R. Haymann and Rav Aharon Feldman explicitly said, showing regard for people in the IDF might lead to charedim joining it."
As a non Jew I find this perspective very much at odds with the whole ethos of Torah (as I understand it).
" 5 Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”
Couple this with those wonderful chapters in Deuteronomy talking about the obligations of a man to look out for the interests of his neighbour (22/23/24) I find this refusal to serve in the military not a pious and noble thing, but rather to be abusing your fellow countrymen's willingness to serve, so that you might safely follow your own lifestyle at their expense.
This emphasizes the idea to read the Torah on its own terms, take it seriously, and let its rhetoric and values speak to you. The Talmudic Rabbis mined the Torah for material in order to flesh out a very intricate set of laws. They held the Torah in great regard and saw it as the source of truth, so they . The problem is, when certain communities of modern Jews primarily approach Torah through a legalistic lens from Talmudic study, it becomes dried out and lifeless. It becomes only a question of "do this" or "dont do that" in a ritual sense defined by later commentaries, and not a source of inspiration or guidance in itself. Words cannot be interpreted as written, only as defined in past exegesis.
These communities have grown in backlash to modernity. Many Jews are open to the outside world, to science and post-Enlightenment values, and connect them to their study of Torah and other Jewish texts. These communities instead see the outside world as a threat to their distinct way of life, and therefore over-emphasize loyalty to their own authorities and distinct ways of life over critical thought and universal values.
"This emphasizes the idea to read the Torah on its own terms, take it seriously, and let its rhetoric and values speak to you. The Talmudic Rabbis mined the Torah for material in order to flesh out a very intricate set of laws."
And as a non Jew this raises a problem for me. I believe in the Torah, I believe that the Covenant the Lord made through Moses is still in operation. The Jews remain the Chosen People. But when it comes to The Talmudic Rabbis mined the Torah for material in order to flesh out a very intricate set of laws..",
The problem as I see it, is that once you accept the principle 'fleshing out the Torah' or as my Orthodox friend explains it , 'Putting a fence round the Torah' the Talmudic rabbis become the interpreters of the Law, and the stories they use to illustrate a point displace the authority of the Torah and also the prophets.. Deuteronomy 4 ... "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."
Not wishing to upset anyone, and open to correction, but that's how I understand it.
Yeah, I'm no spokesman for Orthodoxy, but just as you cannot have a country governed only by a constitution without laws, you can't have a fully fledged living commitment to Torah without Oral Law and codified legislation. A priesthood can show new initiates its practice through apprenticeship, but for a full nation you need law. Practice existed alongside text for ages, judges and authorities made decisions etc. Torah says to build booths for the holiday of Sukkot; it is on the Rabbis to determine and teach what constituted a kosher booth. Torah says an animal must be slaughtered properly prior to .
In many ways, the rule of learned authorities bound to texts and traditions is an improvement and evolution away from that of charismatic prophets, just as the Torah teaches that judging the people couldn't depend on the extraordinary nature of Moses but required institutionalized courts.
In my view you need both - law and inspiration. Values and exegesis. Rules and principles.
And while God chose to reveal his teaching to the world through the Israelite nation, and entered a covenant with them, that does nothing to diminish the nature of any of the people He created in His own image and endowed with the moral sense to follow what is right and do well by each other. Nor does it mean that members of the covenant cannot learn from those who are outside of it.
"..that does nothing to diminish the nature of any of the people He created in His own image and endowed with the moral sense to follow what is right and do well by each other. Nor does it mean that members of the covenant cannot learn from those who are outside of it."
Absolutely. So G-d's moral laws are essential to living a life pleasing to Him, and also builfding a fair and just society. My Jewish friends say to me, "if you accept all these things, why don't you also keep the Law?" I say because the Covenant was made with the Jewish people, it doesn't apply to me. The MORAL laws do, but not the festive or civic laws. So I can (and do ) respect my friends' observances and how they conduct their lives. In some cases I admire their lifestyle, the family closeness etc, but I don't feel it's for me to emulate them.
Bravo. I would only point you to Ruth and the idea that the covenant is open to any who want to join and say "your people are my people" in addition to "your God is my God". It is by no means expected or required, only universal morality is. But it has been the choice many have made.
I spent a total of 5 years in Israel; absolutely loved it. Especially kibbutz. Of course most kibbutzniks are irreligious, but I loved the motivation; “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” It was something that didn’t conflict with my own faith.
I never had serious conversations with the Datiim, and it’s only been in the last five years I’ve had the opportunity to get know observant Jews and with some, ‘compare notes’.
Eh, there's a lot of laws that had relevance at a time and no longer do. Sacrifices, "leprosy", levirate marriage, slavery, the rebellious son, blood vengeance, etc etc. They no longer have value in their fulfillment. They may be studied for insight into their underlying values of course, because they have deep wisdom that was tied to improving the lives and societies of people in the time the Law was given.
Not sure exactly what you're shooting at with the "modern" critique. We live modern lives and have the benefit of modern knowledge. There can be many valid and useful interpretations of biblical laws, stories, and rhetoric. Not every interpretation is valid but it is a noble thing to try to bring relevance to current times from these eternal texts.
Yes, that's the line I learned too, and once accepted. I've grown past it. Now I see the destructions of the Temples as being terrible for the Jews (and still worthy of mourning)...and yet two of the best things that ever happened to Judaism. I know the Tana'im felt otherwise, but it's absurd to me that we should want a restoration of the priestly cult, animal sacrifice, and the like. God certainly doesn't need it, as the First Temple prophets told everyone.
This is a truly excellent post, consistent with my belief that, for certain Charedi populations, "Torah" is their new Avodah Zara. To the extent, as you pointed out, that they are disavowed from even having the most basic level of Hakarat Hatov. R' Nir's words ring so true - thank you for publishing them here.
Rabbi Daniel Haymann's approach is logically consistent with the statement that the most important thing to a chareidi is that his children be chareidim. bsorot tovot
Slifkin, you are very disingenuous. I'm actually disappointed that you felt the need to mispresent my arguments.
You tried to make my arguments sound ridiculous by claiming that it requires charedim to sit down and relax whilst Arabs attack their homes and kill them.
You know as well as I do that this was not my argument. If Arabs directly come into your area and present a real risk to your life, and no one is already dealing with the threat, you are allowed (and in fact obligated) to kill them because they are rodefim.
I made this point very clear in the last substack, and I know that you are aware of this because you liked the comment which posed this question to me and then responded to my answer.
If you want to get into clear and unequivocal halacha, the Torah says "midvar sheker tirchak". Not only should you not speak lies, but you should distance yourself from falsehoods and dishonesty.
You intentionally misquoted my arguments and left out important pieces of information in order to belittle them and make them sound ridiculous. That's called being dishonest. Shame on you.
It sounds like Uri is “saying the quiet out loud”: the Arabs may be posing a clear and present risk to *your* (dati l’umi and/or chiloni) lives, but not to *their* (chareidi) lives so it’s not their problem…
They are posing a threat to charedi lives, but (wait for it, ive only said it ten times)its currently being contained and dealt with by other people. That is what halacha calls "la'asos al yedie acherim".
Calling a situation where people lose their parnasa because they have to be out of work for so long, leave their families for months, and suffer injury and death, "efsher laasos al yedei acherim" is either stupid or evil, I'm not sure which.
Again, you are arguing from emotions, not with logic. Stop name calling the mehalech just because you find it evil. If you have a problem with it, argue with facts and logic If it fits halacha, it's not evil. Unless your worldview is that the practical application of God's will is evil?
But do you know what doesn't fit halacha according to everyone? Dishonestly misrepresenting someone else's views to deliberately make them seem bad and ridiculous to the layman.
Respectfully, applying the concept of a mitzvah that is “efshar la'asos al y’dei acherim” to this situation would be like me saying that “shev v’al ta’aseh” is when I sit on my tuchus and do nothing on the couch.
Many commentors here have also asked variations of the following 10+ times, and have not received an answer:
1- The day may come (if it hasn't come already) where the threat cannot be contained without Hareidi enlistment.. At that point it will be too late because trained Hareidi soldiers won't be immediately available. Why don't Hareidim at least do 9-18 months of full basic training so they can be called up upon need?
2- If, according to you, Hareidim are not allowed to risk their lives because us Acherim are doing it for you (you really don't see the circular logic here??), how are they exempt from non-combat roles? Helping Miluimnikim with their kids, laundry, relieving families taking care of wounded soldiers? Don't all these fall into the rubric of לא תעמוד על דם רעיך?
1) No evidence of this. Of course more manpower would be helpful, but there is no evidence of some impending catastrophe without chareidim. But if you want chareidim to join, focus on the non-learners and those who are finished kollel. It used to be super common for those chareidim who finished kollel to be in the reserves with a few months of training, but that wasn't enough for the seculars. They considered it worthless without the three full years at age 18 in the כור היתוך לציונית. Oh well, תפסת מרובה אפילו מועט לא תפסת. Anti-chareidi instigators don't build, they just destroy.
2) According to that argument, you seem to be correct.
If the first point was a valid argument all Jews should have been training to join a militia their whole lives after all הלכה היא עשו שונה את יעקב. To say, that because maybe something may happen that we might need he charedim in the army they should start training now, is like saying everyone in Europe should be undergoing military training to prepare for a Russian invasion.
Very old post, so not getting into a discussion here, but the Israeli military is *already* short thousands of soldiers, and it is affecting performance. Going to another Shiva this week. This is not a theoretical exercise.
I have answered both questions, and l will address them both again.
1) The nitty gritty technicalities of the outcomes of the mehalech is irrelevant to the fact that the mehalech is halachiklly sound and logical. We are strictly talking halacha here, as that is what slifkin keeps critisizing the charedim on. The charedim are allowed, according to halacha, not to actively train to fight an Arab threat which is not actively threatening them. Is it common sense to? Maybe. But they have no halachik compulsion to do so.
2. Your second point is predicated on the assumption that there is a halachik chiyuv to join the back lines due to the chiyuv of milchemes mitzva. This means that you still have not understood my point; there is no milchama happening, and therefore no chiyuv to help out, even in the back lines.
As for helping out wives and families, this question is not one that is shayach to the conversation of 'do the charedim have a halachik chiyuv to help the milchama or not'; it's shayach to the conversation of charedi hakaras hatov and bein Adam lechavero to those they disagree halachiklly and hashkaficlly, which is a different conversation for another time. As a side point, there have been an increase of help and support from the charedi community to the families in the da'ati Leumi community who are struggling. Think people like Shai Graucher. But I don't want to get bogged down in this conversation, as it's not very relevant to the current conversation.
R.E. the "lo sa'amod Al dam reacha' in reference to helping the families, please do not throw out halachik terms without learning what they mean. The Rambam uses it in reference to not helping save a life when someone is close to death or being raped and you have the ability to save them (without risk to your own wellbeing). This does not apply to helping someone in need financially. That will fall under bein Adam lechavero, which, as I already addressed in the previous paragraph, is not shayach to the conversation of 'do charedim have a halachik chiyuv to join the army', and is therefore a conversation for another time.
For the last time.. Your "Mahalach" is deeply flawed logically, as relying on "acheirim" does not work on the level of the individual.
Take Miluim..when there's no overt war
Would you agree that even when there is no war, removing all soldiers from Israel's borders would result in an invasion / massacres etc?
Take a common scenario, a group of reserve soldiers are called to do a month miluim to guard a certain part of the country. Their contribution as a group is clearly needed...
Now, it's known that more soldiers than necessary are generally called for reserve duty, as not everyone is able to show up (for example, 120 soldiers are called if 100 are needed).
According to your "Mahalach" and your reading of the Rambam, are any of them allowed to come? There are always 100 acheirim who will cover for the 20 extras? But who are the cohort of 100 needed reservists, and who are the extras? So le'shitatcha, no one is required (or maybe even allowed) to show up for miluim, because there are always others who can do it instead.
I hope you'll agree that this is a ridiculous excuse not to appear for reserve duty, and renders your pseudo-Halachik claims absurd.
I don't think it's as dishonest as you think it is. When we were attacked, many many Jews rushed to perform one of the greatest mitzvos... Saving other Jews. Except for many Charedim. Like the Nesiim when donating to the Mishkan, many sat back and (according to your explanation) waited to see if other Jews would be able to cover their responsibility for them. They didn't rush to fight, to defend, to save. And then when they were reasonably sure that the army didn't need them (based on which expert opinion?), now argue that they are exempt since other people are doing it (and sacrificing lives, health, money, and family to do so).
And your other point? That if there was a real existential threat... That the Charedim would suddenly take up arms and fight? Even if that were true, that's a weak argument. They're not trained, they're not in proper shape... If you don't prepare for that possibility, then merely saying that Charedim would fight if necessary is not saying much and is mere lip service.
It happened in 1948. When the Arab threat reached the charedi areas, charedim (including R Chaim Kanievsky) took up arms and joined the fight.
It worked out then, didn't it? And now, like slifkin keeps saying, there are even more charedim to pick up arms, giving the operation a higher chance of being successful!
And therefore what? That Charedim don't need military and weapons training to defend against genocidal rodfim? Because at one point in history it worked out (and we have no idea how effective the Charedim were as fighters in 1948), suddenly we can rely on a neis for the rest of history?
It happened in 1948. When the Arab threat reached the charedi areas, charedim (including R Chaim Kanievsky) took up arms and joined the fight.
It worked out then, didn't it? And now, like slifkin keeps saying, there are even more charedim to pick up arms, giving the operation a higher chance of being successful!
So, security has become concerning enough for them to demand others to defend them, but not serious enough for they themselves to join the defense. Never mind that that's a weird חילוק, it's also another example of someone downplaying the severity of the situation.
And yet, the mayor does consider the situation serious:
"עשרות אלפי תושבים אינם יכולים לחיות בצל הפחד מפורעים ערביים, משל אנו בשנת תרפ"ט (או תשפ"ד). מאירועי הדרום צריך ללמוד, שלא לחכות לאחר מעשה, אלא לפעול למניעה מבעוד מועד. "
All these arguments are futile and silly. Each side brings some words of Chazal that show's his view point OR twists it to accommodate the view they want to promote.
Imagine America or England on the eve of WWII had people arguing about this.? Those countries were forced to protect themselves from extinction, and called up every able bodied man to defend it. They just ignored all the rhetoric. They said great, tell us again why we have no right to draft you, while walking them to the army intake bases.
Here it is the same, we should stop all the nonsense and just compel every able bodied man to do his duty . Let them argue their arguments - but go straight right into the army.
I personally am amused about this whole thing, because there will come a time when those that get the fright they are losing their country, that their patents fought so hard for. They will rise up and take it back. It might happen before, or the latest right when the majority in Israel turn Frum.
Most experts understand this, and are quietly saying it - it is only a matter of time before there will be an uprising by the non-religious, and they will just take back their country. There were disagreements among them, some claimed once the Charedi get the majority, they will govern fairly and not like the older generation. That is out the window as the younger generation is more fanatical then the old ones . Others said the Chlonim will just leave, - however not one thinker says they will live under a regime where some Rebbe will be telling them what they could watch on TV or about anything else in their lives. That is gone as they realize the world is anti-Semitic and they can't go anywhere. (they are saying it already in their demonstrations - we have no where to go). So what is left - an upraising. Most think it will be a short and not too a bloody coup, The charedim are great when demonstrating but once a gun is pointed at them, they scatter. However the "wild card" are the Daati Leumi, will they will fight back, (they are also trained as soldiers) then it can get real bloody R'L. Most say that will not happen , reasoning, the Chlonim would see it a second fight for their country, however the Daati Leumi would not be fighting for survival, (might not be exactly happy), however, they will not raise a gun against their brothers, reasoning both ways they are still protected and they have a secure State to live in
So until that day comes, keep up the shenanigans - to go not to go? Bring all kinds of arguments, it makes no difference anyway. Sit back and watch the fun for now.
I personally hope this can be solved peacefully by all those that don't want to contribute to the upkeep of the land, or those that hate the Zionist should leave. Poland, England, Germany, would welcome them with open arms. Leave the land and country to those that love it, and desire it to be a protection for Yidden for future generations.....What is wrong with this argument ?
In my tradition we believe in the idea of a "just war'. No sane man or woman wants war, but to defend your wife, your children, your community and your culture,; we must sometimes be prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice.
I was thinking that when I saw your comment. In addition I know your mind set. but was still kind of wondering?
When I write irony I give it away, I would write 'Oh my God Anarchy is against the law" But my bad here . Anyway refreshing to see those, where we think rationally, and leave superstition and fanaticism at the door - Good luck on everything
You are 100% right, Anancy is against the law. However, If we want to stay alive or not be brutalized by others - what choice do we really have? How long do you think a country will last in such an hostile environment, should it be run by Rosh Yeshivas or Rebbes. Do you really think they can make required strategy and sound decisions to protect the country? . My friend, you don't have 70 year that the Gidolim all said Israel wont last more than that. You don't even have 7 years before we are run over. We tried this way of thinking already in Europe, and see how that turned out! Hashem want us NOT to listen to those who are not experts in that field, but wants us to do what is normally required in those situations. So yes , I understand anarchy is the only way my grandchildren or great grandchildren will not suffer, as my parents suffered so much in their lives. There is a saying "you have to do what you gotta to do". The others can run to the "Sanah Tokief" screaming it is not fair.
That's exactly what will happen. Won't be the first time in the world such a bizarre thing happens. In reality -They could still claim it is democratic by passing a law - not going to the army, not to do your duty to the country, you lose your voting rights, any and all government programs, etc. So technically it is still a democratic country, just with strong obligations to its defense.
The only way such a law gets passed without people getting shot is if they swallow their pride and work together with the normies on the other side of the aisle. And they have proven themselves incapable of doing so, the hate runs so deep.
"If the growing community of one million charedim does not radically change its approach to the army and the economy, all our lives will be at risk."
I followed the link. It went to a J-Post article which is shrill disjointed nonsense. "In the current system of government, the growth of the haredi population will give haredi leadership the ability to ensure overrepresentation of its population in legislation, thus enabling its leadership to harm the liberal characteristics of the state, said the letter.
The economists called for wide-ranging reforms in education; dividing the security burden between all the different parts of society; and changes to Israel’s governance system; including encoding liberal and democratic values in law in a way that prevents them from being eroded in the future."
These 'leading economists' don't seem to even have much to say about economics. The article reads more like a rough draft for a 'Movement For Quality Government' petition to the semi self appointed high court to order the democratically elected government to do something or other. (To protect democracy, of course.)
===
In general, your hysterics about looming charedi catastrophic growth are in tension with your claims about the necessity of the state. On your telling, https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/yes-we-needed-israel for 2000 years Jews endured torture and death at the hands of all manner of despots, then miraculously returned home..... only to pick and leave because there's too many people in bnei brak who don't participate in the miraculous redemption. It's just weird.
===
On a lighter note, I thought I'd juxtapose a few of your posts' titles.
"A Charedi Exodus?
The Exodus Disgrace Called Out
Who Has Another Land?
Some people do. But many others don't.
Coming to America
Here's my schedule"
.....enjoy your visit. Maybe check out some nice places to live in the 5 Towns in case charedim keep overpopulating.
In making any assessment, it is important that we approach the subject with full awareness of the military ramifications – a point not always sufficiently heeded. The story is reliably told of a leading rosh yeshiva who, at the height of the controversy over the drafting of women, back in the Fifties, attended a wedding near the Israeli-Arab border in Jerusalem. At one point, gunfire was suddenly heard and he scurried under a table, exclaiming passionately, “Ribbono shel olam, I want to live! There is much Torah which I yet wish to learn and create!” Whereupon a rather insensitive observer approached him and asked, “Nu, rebbe, was sagt ihr itzer wegen giyus banot?” (Well, rabbi, what do you say now about giyus banot?) And he kept quiet. I cite the story not because I favor the induction of women – under present circumstances, I very much oppose it – nor to impugn the memory of a truly great person, but in order to point out that, at a certain distance, one can lose sight of the simple truth that a Jewish soul can only exist within a Jewish body.
That nagging truth persists, however, and its appreciation is central to the understanding of an institution designed to reconcile the conflicting claims of spirituality and security, of talmud Torah and gemilut chasadim, of personal growth and public service. The present dilemma posed by these claims is not of our choosing. The response, however, is; and, in this respect, yeshivot hesder are a conspectus of our collective anomaly: a nation with outstretched palm and mailed fist, striving for peace and yet training for war. For the foreseeable future, this is our situation… Hence, within the context of our “station and its duties,” hesder is, for bnei Torah, the imperative of the moment. May G-d grant us a better station. In the meantime, however, if it is to become no worse, we must keep both our spirits and our guard up. Animated by vision and yet chary of danger, we, of yeshivot hesder, pray that He may grant us the wisdom and the courage to cope with the challenges of time… Standing in tears atop Har HaZeitim, the bleak sight of kol hamekudash mechavero charev yoter mechavero stretching before him, what would the Ramban have given to head a yeshivat hesder?
Such a shame that almost eight months after Oct 7, none of the "Giants of our Generation" have published a comprehensive teshuva on the matter of milchemes mitzvah b'zman hazeh in light of the Oct 7 attack. And we instead have to rely on the arguments put forth by haredi commentators on this blog, doing their best to guess what the arguments are.
(By a teshuva, I mean something in classic teshuva form, reviewing the literature and going through ALL the arguments pro and con -- not just stating one's one position w/o substantively showing how the counter-arguments are less persuasive.)
You can criticize the Chareidy society as much as you like. However there is IMO no alternative at the moment if you actually want to live a *torah* life.
Just take an average avreich from bney brak and compare them to the average D"L man. The former keeps halacha honestly, is not exposed to untznius movies and secular culture, does not waste endless amount of time browsing junk or semi-junk on his phone, his wife is dressed tznius, and the list goes on. On the D"L side on the other hand boys and girls mix together, there is full or substantial exposure to western junk, rabbanim make dishonest meikel psaks just to please the crowd, women are dressed untniusly to that extent or another. And I am not even talking about the very light D"L here. The average D"L would have no problem going to a secular gender-mixed university and risk is entire spiritual life just because "that's the way it is" or make up some dishonest reason (or have his rav make up for him) on why hashem actually *wants* him to go to university.
Is the above true about chardal as well? I admit it's not. However A. Chardal have their own issues with extreme militarizm, nationalism, made up mitvos and values, and in general way of thinking that sounds completely detached from reality (admittedly some chareidim give them good competition in the last point) B. IMO chardal wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Chareidim.
That's what I see as the problem with most of your posts against chareidim. You criticize them for this and that but you fail to point out that they are the only ones (or almost the only ones) who preserve most of the torah values.
The problem is with your definition of "most of the Torah values." You take very minor things and proclaim them to be more significant than very fundamental things about what it means to be a member of society.
Uh no. Saving lives is only important inasmuch as the halacha recognizes it as such. Sometimes halacha recognizes other values as superseding saving lives, and then we follow halacha. Someone who inverts this is just a plain shoteh.
You only think this because you know nothing about halacha. The reason why the person is allowed to save the drowning woman is because it is not דרך חבה. On the other hand, if a man asks for a breach of tznius to save his life, the type of breach of tznius that more modern communities engage in totally nonchalantly-
משנה תורה, הלכות יסודי התורה ה׳
מי שנתן עיניו באשה וחלה ונטה למות ואמרו הרופאים אין לו רפואה עד שתבעל לו. ימות ואל תבעל לו אפלו היתה פנויה. ואפלו לדבר עמה מאחורי הגדר אין מורין לו בכך וימות ולא יורו לדבר עמה מאחורי הגדר שלא יהו בנות ישראל הפקר ויבואו בדברים אלו לפרץ בעריות:
If the Chareidim are not able to live their "Torah life" in a manner that is societally and economically sustainable, then clearly their lifestyle is not the ideal. The Torah does not demand (or I would even say, allow) a lifestyle that requires depending on others for support, against their will. As I said in a comment on the previous post "The acheirim are getting tired"
Completely incorrect. Chareidim keep a very narrow band of halochoh honestly. When it suits them, they find all sorts of heterim to permit whatever they wish- nursing home businesses sold on shabbos/YT with flimsy bits of paper - heter iskah for personal residential properties unconnected with business - completely ignoring zemanie tefillah with minyan factories - fraudulent benefit claims and all that goes with it. As for tznius, my wife tells me she is shocked at how some of the 'kollel wives' dress - modern charedi they call it. Rioting and property destruction,. Are you aware of the gur on gur violence? That's before we come on to the nepotism etc. But yeah, they are 'stark makpid' about a black spot on an esrog.
“Modern charedi” is being disingenuous. The “hot chanie” look is a HUGE predicate towards wanton adulterous behavior (and worse) throughout the entire spectrum of the charedi community
"But yeah, they are 'stark makpid' about a black spot on an esrog"
You make it sound very trivial. So here is a partial list of things that a typical litvish Israeli chareidy is makpid on. I suggest you take a few moments to think if a person who does everything below may deserve some of your appreciation.
1. He will make sure to check his new coat for shaatnez.
2.He will use a highly filtered internet. In some cases he will have no internet, and will go to an internet coffee to do arrangements (e.g. bank transfers)
3. He will only invest is money in places that have high level of hechsher. He will make sure his pension and other investments are in a kosher track.
4. He will make sure that he and all of his kids sleep in a sukah, and will go to a great extent to build his sukah in a place that allows for that.
5. He will go 6 floors up a few times every shabbes because he wouldn't rely on shabbes elevator.
The list goes on and on. I am sure that if you actually know some people like that (and that's a good percentage of this society you despise so much) you wouldn't just dismiss this as "'stark makpid' about a black spot on an esrog".
Lashon Horoh? You having a laugh? A typical charedi, who doesn't have the knowledge to discuss culture, sport, whatever, with friends will spend hours schmoozing about 'yene'. Often Yene's money. The non-talmidei chachomim section of chareidi society (ie most of them, who can't discuss torah) spend most of their recreational time gossiping and discussing other people!
To be sure, there's is too much hooliganism in the Charedi world. But endemic? I think you're exaggerating. It's not representative of the Charedi world, though I wish there was condemnation from the leadership.
There is no condemnation because they don't have a problem with. If the leaders don't have a problem with it, that means it is an endemioc problem. A feature, not a bug.
I don't think so. There could be other reasons why there isn't condemnation:
1) There actually could be condemnation, but not enough of it, or not loudly enough. There's ample reason (or excuse if you prefer) why not to make a public fuss of sins of the community.
2) By not condemning it, there's an implied (though ineffective) message that such hooligans are not bona fide members of the community and hence not within the "jurisdiction" of the leadership.
3) They don't want there to be any misunderstanding that would lead people to believe that the objects of the hooligans rage are undeserving of attack. Wig and smart-phone stores should be shut down, but only through boycott and protest. Arson is unacceptable, but can't be condemned too loudly, lest people not attack such places in more "legitimate" ways.
I have plenty to respond with, but I can't be bothered right now.
Suffice it to say, your Beiter or Kiryat Seifer 'typical litvish chareidi' is a very small percentage of those worldwide who consider themselves 'charedi', 'benei torah', 'heimish' or 'yeshvish'. Benie Berak is full of 'chareidim'. Ask your wife to look at the clothes some charedi wives wear parading down Rechov Rabbi Akiva on shabbos/YT.
Tell yourself whatever stories make you happy. Then walk into any random shul in the Reches, Sanedria, Kiryat Tzanz (Jerusalem) most of Bney Brak, Kiryat Sefer, Achisamach, Beiter, and do reality check.
Wow. What gaava. It dosent even enter your head that we might have a point, and that our rabanim know what they are talking about. Have you ever read שותים from our poskim or read any ספרי הרב קוק? You sound like one of the illiterates who wouldnt even be able to read. Thanks for proving slifkin right.
Has it occured to you that I might be actually familiar with certain D"L rabbanim approaches to halachic issues, and I am talking according to that? take the D"L approach to geirus, to give one example. Solve the demographic issue at the cost of throwing halacha down the drain.
One contributor here, Ephraim, shared this video of Dr. Mordechai Kedar with me, on another discussion thread. It's a translation of a Hamas analysis of the effect of the war on Israeli society.
I saw another video, where Gen. Yitzchak Brik discusses Dr. Kedar's analysis. He says that the army can't place itself 24/7 in Yehudah and Shomron, and along the Gaza border. Instead, we'll need a sort of National Guard, כיתות כוננות, where the citizens are armed and trained to protect their communities.
(You can probably tell that I never served in the army. But, in some of the kibbutzim that were attacked on October 7th, the כיתת כוננות succeeded in repelling the Hamasnikim there.)
So.. when the chareidi protestors say they would rather die than be drafted.. then they are saying that they think that avoiding the draft should be punishable by death??
What’s amazing is that the Lithuanian yeshiva world in aggregate probably spends more time earning the bench and banging the shtender on maseches bava basra than other tractate in the Talmud. And fundamentally it’s a tractate which almost entirely derived from the principles based on Ve'asisa hayashar vehatov, as explained by that Ramban. The fattest volume in the shas and one most studied in the yeshivas is almost entirely based on how to extrapolate moral values from the mitzvos to apply to other cases. And it’s precisely these values which are the ones most likely to be ignored by the community of the people doing this study.
I didn't read this post carefully, but based on what I read I could probably give it a like if it add the work 'spokesman' every time it says charedi. Charedi spokesmen truly are horrible. If you want to know what Charedim really believe go to a Bais Medrash and find a Talmid Chacham. Never listen to spokesmen.
However, this whole debate is so sad, as it is so shortsighted. You could fight around about all these details, but in the long run the only thing that will give Israel security is a major change in demographics. The Charedim are the key if Israel is to have a long-term stable existence. Certainly, the Charedim have major problems they need to work on, but when it comes tp the most important long-term issue they are the ones who get it.
Maybe the charedim should get new spokesmen then. Why don’t the talmidei chachachmim in the batei Midrash change spokesmen so then we will all be able to know what charedim REALLY believe?
That's like asking why 90% of the US and Israeli Medea are left leaning if that number does not reflect the real demographics. Its just how it is, and the nuts got the loudest voices.
I would add that I learned this lesson the hard way; through my experience on this blog. Initially, when the OP started blogging about drafting Charedim I tried to have a serious conversation. However, I saw a clear pattern, where any serious high content comment explaining Charedim's position was completely ignored, unless the OP (or a crony) found some word that he felt was misplaced and he could make a snarky comment about it. Initially I was bothered by this. However, when I thought about it, I realized that I never should have expected any different. After all, these are complicated intricate sugyos which vary greatly based on the specific situation. Therefore, the answer can only be found in the Bais Medrash, in a high-level conversation with serious Talmidei Chachamim, not though soundbites online.
You left out: feeling love for a few Jew. feeling a sense of brotherhood, of being in a shared family.
I mean: feeling love for a fellow Jew.
Also:
where is the empathy? where is the pain? where is the comforting?
I know. We need more of that, don't we? Unfortunately, this blog is the opposite.
I am disappointed that you use what I wrote for a segue to a snarky comment.
Let's not even bring up the disaster that is the current Chief Rabbinate election and what that makes the typical Israeli- about 90% of Israeli Jews, I'd say- think of religion. (The remaining 10% are charedim who don't care.)
You're correct. I loathe the Rabbanut bureaucracy as I do pretty much all the other bloated government ministries and departments. The majority of them can be shut down or shrunk by 70% overnight and we would all get over it after a while.
I personally think Israel could do with about five or six ministries, tops. Some of the others can be folded into these, but a bunch can just be shut down.
You're such a hater! How else will the Der'i, Yosef, and Lau "boys" find an income now?
They all have jobs with nice pensions built in. They'll manage. Maybe their kids will have to get jobs too.
They won’t need jobs in jail….
I've read that Yitzhak Yosef alone is a multimillionaire, his family doesn't need an income.
If that's the case, it's even more disgraceful the way they fight over the position like it was the last potato in the refugee camp.
1) It's possible, likely even, that a lot of his net worth came from abusing his position within the Chief Rabbinate.
2) It allows the Haredim to execute disproportionate influence over the Torah World, in the same way as they do by having kingmakers in the Knesset. The lenient Sephardic Israeli rabbis like Joseph Mesas and the original Sephardic Chief Rabbi of Israel, Ben-Zion Uziel? They've basically been exiled from history and replaced with the Yosef family (I should note that R' Ovadia Yosef had great respect for R' Mesas and that the process of exiling certain Sephardic rabbis from history was likely not started by him). The Orthodox Union in America and the Chief Rabbinate of England? They don't want their rulings to be inconsistent with those coming from Eretz Yisrael.
I will end with a reading from Pirkei Avot that is inconvenient for the Chief Rabbis - "Shmaya says love work, stay away from mastery over others, and don't become close to the government."
I think the point was originally a compromise (part of the "secular-religious status quo" that the State of Israel had to keep up), but you're right. Governments in the Diaspora liked to have one Rabbi represent the Jewish community, like the Nagid of Egypt or the Chief Rabbi of England. A lot of Israel's institutions are relics of English or Ottoman institutions rather than something classically Jewish or even something new built for Israel's unique needs.
This seems to be more a function of internal DL politics.
https://www.inn.co.il/news/638946
לפני שנה היה דומה שיש תקווה לשינוי. בקול תרועה, הוקמה וועדה בראשות הרב יעקב אריאל שמנתה 40 רבנים המייצגים את הזרמים השונים בציונות הדתית. לאחר קביעת סדרי העבודה שלה, פגשה הוועדה בשורה של רבנים מבני הציונות הדתית שהיו נכונים להתמודד על תפקיד הרב הראשי לישראל. לאחר עבודה קפדנית ודיונים משמעותיים בחרה הוועדה את אב בין הדין, הרב מאיר כהנא כמועמד הציונות הדתית לתפקיד. בחירה מצוינת שזכתה לשבחים רבים.
אלא שככל שהתקרב מועד הבחירות, החלו להישמע בציבור הדתי לאומי עוד ועוד קולות, בעיקר של רבנים מהמחנה החרדי-לאומי שביקשו לאתגר את הבחירה ברב כהנא. במקום ללכת מעיר לעיר ולשכנע במועמדותו של מי שנבחר כמועמד, רבנים שונים, ביניהם כאלו שהיו חברים בוועדה, החלו לפעול להצעת מועמדים אחרים.
הדברים הגיעו לידי כך שהרב אריאל, "החזיר את המנדט" של הוועדה לפוליטיקאים. במכתב נוגה ובטון פגוע, הוא מצר מרות על כך שלמרות שהוועדה פעלה ברצינות ובניקיון כפיים, על דעת כל רבנים מכל קצווי הציונות הדתית, קמו רבים שמערערים על בחירתה.
Not more.
If the charedim were honest and modest enough not to get involved in a Rabbinate they don't believe in anyway, things would be a lot more straightforward. But there's too much of the old mazooma out there.
I see. It's the charedim's fault that R Yakov Ariel's commision of 30+ dati leumi rabbanim fractured. Of course. Maybe blame R Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld too while you're at it.
Nah, just Elyashiv. Sonnenfeld had the decency to stay out of things that weren't his business.
R. Lichtenstein asked R. Haymann if, upon seeing a soldier on duty, he simply thanks him for his service. And R. Haymann, the man who literally wrote the book on hakaras hatov, says that he doesn’t!
Why are they so opposed to it? Because, as R. Haymann and Rav Aharon Feldman explicitly said, showing regard for people in the IDF might lead to charedim joining it."
As a non Jew I find this perspective very much at odds with the whole ethos of Torah (as I understand it).
" 5 Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”
Couple this with those wonderful chapters in Deuteronomy talking about the obligations of a man to look out for the interests of his neighbour (22/23/24) I find this refusal to serve in the military not a pious and noble thing, but rather to be abusing your fellow countrymen's willingness to serve, so that you might safely follow your own lifestyle at their expense.
Am I wrong?
This emphasizes the idea to read the Torah on its own terms, take it seriously, and let its rhetoric and values speak to you. The Talmudic Rabbis mined the Torah for material in order to flesh out a very intricate set of laws. They held the Torah in great regard and saw it as the source of truth, so they . The problem is, when certain communities of modern Jews primarily approach Torah through a legalistic lens from Talmudic study, it becomes dried out and lifeless. It becomes only a question of "do this" or "dont do that" in a ritual sense defined by later commentaries, and not a source of inspiration or guidance in itself. Words cannot be interpreted as written, only as defined in past exegesis.
These communities have grown in backlash to modernity. Many Jews are open to the outside world, to science and post-Enlightenment values, and connect them to their study of Torah and other Jewish texts. These communities instead see the outside world as a threat to their distinct way of life, and therefore over-emphasize loyalty to their own authorities and distinct ways of life over critical thought and universal values.
"This emphasizes the idea to read the Torah on its own terms, take it seriously, and let its rhetoric and values speak to you. The Talmudic Rabbis mined the Torah for material in order to flesh out a very intricate set of laws."
And as a non Jew this raises a problem for me. I believe in the Torah, I believe that the Covenant the Lord made through Moses is still in operation. The Jews remain the Chosen People. But when it comes to The Talmudic Rabbis mined the Torah for material in order to flesh out a very intricate set of laws..",
The problem as I see it, is that once you accept the principle 'fleshing out the Torah' or as my Orthodox friend explains it , 'Putting a fence round the Torah' the Talmudic rabbis become the interpreters of the Law, and the stories they use to illustrate a point displace the authority of the Torah and also the prophets.. Deuteronomy 4 ... "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."
Not wishing to upset anyone, and open to correction, but that's how I understand it.
Yeah, I'm no spokesman for Orthodoxy, but just as you cannot have a country governed only by a constitution without laws, you can't have a fully fledged living commitment to Torah without Oral Law and codified legislation. A priesthood can show new initiates its practice through apprenticeship, but for a full nation you need law. Practice existed alongside text for ages, judges and authorities made decisions etc. Torah says to build booths for the holiday of Sukkot; it is on the Rabbis to determine and teach what constituted a kosher booth. Torah says an animal must be slaughtered properly prior to .
In many ways, the rule of learned authorities bound to texts and traditions is an improvement and evolution away from that of charismatic prophets, just as the Torah teaches that judging the people couldn't depend on the extraordinary nature of Moses but required institutionalized courts.
In my view you need both - law and inspiration. Values and exegesis. Rules and principles.
And while God chose to reveal his teaching to the world through the Israelite nation, and entered a covenant with them, that does nothing to diminish the nature of any of the people He created in His own image and endowed with the moral sense to follow what is right and do well by each other. Nor does it mean that members of the covenant cannot learn from those who are outside of it.
"..that does nothing to diminish the nature of any of the people He created in His own image and endowed with the moral sense to follow what is right and do well by each other. Nor does it mean that members of the covenant cannot learn from those who are outside of it."
Absolutely. So G-d's moral laws are essential to living a life pleasing to Him, and also builfding a fair and just society. My Jewish friends say to me, "if you accept all these things, why don't you also keep the Law?" I say because the Covenant was made with the Jewish people, it doesn't apply to me. The MORAL laws do, but not the festive or civic laws. So I can (and do ) respect my friends' observances and how they conduct their lives. In some cases I admire their lifestyle, the family closeness etc, but I don't feel it's for me to emulate them.
Bravo. I would only point you to Ruth and the idea that the covenant is open to any who want to join and say "your people are my people" in addition to "your God is my God". It is by no means expected or required, only universal morality is. But it has been the choice many have made.
I spent a total of 5 years in Israel; absolutely loved it. Especially kibbutz. Of course most kibbutzniks are irreligious, but I loved the motivation; “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” It was something that didn’t conflict with my own faith.
I never had serious conversations with the Datiim, and it’s only been in the last five years I’ve had the opportunity to get know observant Jews and with some, ‘compare notes’.
Think of it a kind of yoga practice.
Eh, there's a lot of laws that had relevance at a time and no longer do. Sacrifices, "leprosy", levirate marriage, slavery, the rebellious son, blood vengeance, etc etc. They no longer have value in their fulfillment. They may be studied for insight into their underlying values of course, because they have deep wisdom that was tied to improving the lives and societies of people in the time the Law was given.
Not sure exactly what you're shooting at with the "modern" critique. We live modern lives and have the benefit of modern knowledge. There can be many valid and useful interpretations of biblical laws, stories, and rhetoric. Not every interpretation is valid but it is a noble thing to try to bring relevance to current times from these eternal texts.
Yes, that's the line I learned too, and once accepted. I've grown past it. Now I see the destructions of the Temples as being terrible for the Jews (and still worthy of mourning)...and yet two of the best things that ever happened to Judaism. I know the Tana'im felt otherwise, but it's absurd to me that we should want a restoration of the priestly cult, animal sacrifice, and the like. God certainly doesn't need it, as the First Temple prophets told everyone.
יש חכמה בגוים? תאמין
יש חכמה ביהודים? אל תאמין
יש תורה ביהודים? אולי. קצת
True wisdom comes from He who created all things. The man who puts his trust in Him and studies His Word is wise!
My observant Jewish friends delight me with their knowledge of Scripture and their willingness to share their insights..
This is a truly excellent post, consistent with my belief that, for certain Charedi populations, "Torah" is their new Avodah Zara. To the extent, as you pointed out, that they are disavowed from even having the most basic level of Hakarat Hatov. R' Nir's words ring so true - thank you for publishing them here.
Rabbi Daniel Haymann's approach is logically consistent with the statement that the most important thing to a chareidi is that his children be chareidim. bsorot tovot
Slifkin, you are very disingenuous. I'm actually disappointed that you felt the need to mispresent my arguments.
You tried to make my arguments sound ridiculous by claiming that it requires charedim to sit down and relax whilst Arabs attack their homes and kill them.
You know as well as I do that this was not my argument. If Arabs directly come into your area and present a real risk to your life, and no one is already dealing with the threat, you are allowed (and in fact obligated) to kill them because they are rodefim.
I made this point very clear in the last substack, and I know that you are aware of this because you liked the comment which posed this question to me and then responded to my answer.
If you want to get into clear and unequivocal halacha, the Torah says "midvar sheker tirchak". Not only should you not speak lies, but you should distance yourself from falsehoods and dishonesty.
You intentionally misquoted my arguments and left out important pieces of information in order to belittle them and make them sound ridiculous. That's called being dishonest. Shame on you.
Arabs ARE posing a risk to our lives!!!
It sounds like Uri is “saying the quiet out loud”: the Arabs may be posing a clear and present risk to *your* (dati l’umi and/or chiloni) lives, but not to *their* (chareidi) lives so it’s not their problem…
Nope. Both of you have not been listening.
They are posing a threat to charedi lives, but (wait for it, ive only said it ten times)its currently being contained and dealt with by other people. That is what halacha calls "la'asos al yedie acherim".
Calling a situation where people lose their parnasa because they have to be out of work for so long, leave their families for months, and suffer injury and death, "efsher laasos al yedei acherim" is either stupid or evil, I'm not sure which.
Again, you are arguing from emotions, not with logic. Stop name calling the mehalech just because you find it evil. If you have a problem with it, argue with facts and logic If it fits halacha, it's not evil. Unless your worldview is that the practical application of God's will is evil?
But do you know what doesn't fit halacha according to everyone? Dishonestly misrepresenting someone else's views to deliberately make them seem bad and ridiculous to the layman.
It's completely and utterly selfish.
Respectfully, applying the concept of a mitzvah that is “efshar la'asos al y’dei acherim” to this situation would be like me saying that “shev v’al ta’aseh” is when I sit on my tuchus and do nothing on the couch.
Many commentors here have also asked variations of the following 10+ times, and have not received an answer:
1- The day may come (if it hasn't come already) where the threat cannot be contained without Hareidi enlistment.. At that point it will be too late because trained Hareidi soldiers won't be immediately available. Why don't Hareidim at least do 9-18 months of full basic training so they can be called up upon need?
2- If, according to you, Hareidim are not allowed to risk their lives because us Acherim are doing it for you (you really don't see the circular logic here??), how are they exempt from non-combat roles? Helping Miluimnikim with their kids, laundry, relieving families taking care of wounded soldiers? Don't all these fall into the rubric of לא תעמוד על דם רעיך?
1) No evidence of this. Of course more manpower would be helpful, but there is no evidence of some impending catastrophe without chareidim. But if you want chareidim to join, focus on the non-learners and those who are finished kollel. It used to be super common for those chareidim who finished kollel to be in the reserves with a few months of training, but that wasn't enough for the seculars. They considered it worthless without the three full years at age 18 in the כור היתוך לציונית. Oh well, תפסת מרובה אפילו מועט לא תפסת. Anti-chareidi instigators don't build, they just destroy.
2) According to that argument, you seem to be correct.
#1 is great. I don't get why this got less than 20 likes.
If the first point was a valid argument all Jews should have been training to join a militia their whole lives after all הלכה היא עשו שונה את יעקב. To say, that because maybe something may happen that we might need he charedim in the army they should start training now, is like saying everyone in Europe should be undergoing military training to prepare for a Russian invasion.
Very old post, so not getting into a discussion here, but the Israeli military is *already* short thousands of soldiers, and it is affecting performance. Going to another Shiva this week. This is not a theoretical exercise.
I have answered both questions, and l will address them both again.
1) The nitty gritty technicalities of the outcomes of the mehalech is irrelevant to the fact that the mehalech is halachiklly sound and logical. We are strictly talking halacha here, as that is what slifkin keeps critisizing the charedim on. The charedim are allowed, according to halacha, not to actively train to fight an Arab threat which is not actively threatening them. Is it common sense to? Maybe. But they have no halachik compulsion to do so.
2. Your second point is predicated on the assumption that there is a halachik chiyuv to join the back lines due to the chiyuv of milchemes mitzva. This means that you still have not understood my point; there is no milchama happening, and therefore no chiyuv to help out, even in the back lines.
As for helping out wives and families, this question is not one that is shayach to the conversation of 'do the charedim have a halachik chiyuv to help the milchama or not'; it's shayach to the conversation of charedi hakaras hatov and bein Adam lechavero to those they disagree halachiklly and hashkaficlly, which is a different conversation for another time. As a side point, there have been an increase of help and support from the charedi community to the families in the da'ati Leumi community who are struggling. Think people like Shai Graucher. But I don't want to get bogged down in this conversation, as it's not very relevant to the current conversation.
R.E. the "lo sa'amod Al dam reacha' in reference to helping the families, please do not throw out halachik terms without learning what they mean. The Rambam uses it in reference to not helping save a life when someone is close to death or being raped and you have the ability to save them (without risk to your own wellbeing). This does not apply to helping someone in need financially. That will fall under bein Adam lechavero, which, as I already addressed in the previous paragraph, is not shayach to the conversation of 'do charedim have a halachik chiyuv to join the army', and is therefore a conversation for another time.
For the last time.. Your "Mahalach" is deeply flawed logically, as relying on "acheirim" does not work on the level of the individual.
Take Miluim..when there's no overt war
Would you agree that even when there is no war, removing all soldiers from Israel's borders would result in an invasion / massacres etc?
Take a common scenario, a group of reserve soldiers are called to do a month miluim to guard a certain part of the country. Their contribution as a group is clearly needed...
Now, it's known that more soldiers than necessary are generally called for reserve duty, as not everyone is able to show up (for example, 120 soldiers are called if 100 are needed).
According to your "Mahalach" and your reading of the Rambam, are any of them allowed to come? There are always 100 acheirim who will cover for the 20 extras? But who are the cohort of 100 needed reservists, and who are the extras? So le'shitatcha, no one is required (or maybe even allowed) to show up for miluim, because there are always others who can do it instead.
I hope you'll agree that this is a ridiculous excuse not to appear for reserve duty, and renders your pseudo-Halachik claims absurd.
Shabbat Shalom
I don't think it's as dishonest as you think it is. When we were attacked, many many Jews rushed to perform one of the greatest mitzvos... Saving other Jews. Except for many Charedim. Like the Nesiim when donating to the Mishkan, many sat back and (according to your explanation) waited to see if other Jews would be able to cover their responsibility for them. They didn't rush to fight, to defend, to save. And then when they were reasonably sure that the army didn't need them (based on which expert opinion?), now argue that they are exempt since other people are doing it (and sacrificing lives, health, money, and family to do so).
And your other point? That if there was a real existential threat... That the Charedim would suddenly take up arms and fight? Even if that were true, that's a weak argument. They're not trained, they're not in proper shape... If you don't prepare for that possibility, then merely saying that Charedim would fight if necessary is not saying much and is mere lip service.
It happened in 1948. When the Arab threat reached the charedi areas, charedim (including R Chaim Kanievsky) took up arms and joined the fight.
It worked out then, didn't it? And now, like slifkin keeps saying, there are even more charedim to pick up arms, giving the operation a higher chance of being successful!
And therefore what? That Charedim don't need military and weapons training to defend against genocidal rodfim? Because at one point in history it worked out (and we have no idea how effective the Charedim were as fighters in 1948), suddenly we can rely on a neis for the rest of history?
It happened in 1948. When the Arab threat reached the charedi areas, charedim (including R Chaim Kanievsky) took up arms and joined the fight.
It worked out then, didn't it? And now, like slifkin keeps saying, there are even more charedim to pick up arms, giving the operation a higher chance of being successful!
"It happened in 1948. When the Arab threat reached the charedi areas..."
Like Beitar today, where the Charedi leadership has demanded the IDF provide more security?
If the IDF security becomes genuinely (according to halachik standards) insufficient, then the people of beitarvwill need to arm themselves.
So, security has become concerning enough for them to demand others to defend them, but not serious enough for they themselves to join the defense. Never mind that that's a weird חילוק, it's also another example of someone downplaying the severity of the situation.
And yet, the mayor does consider the situation serious:
"עשרות אלפי תושבים אינם יכולים לחיות בצל הפחד מפורעים ערביים, משל אנו בשנת תרפ"ט (או תשפ"ד). מאירועי הדרום צריך ללמוד, שלא לחכות לאחר מעשה, אלא לפעול למניעה מבעוד מועד. "
Are the IDF currently protecting them?
" you are allowed (and in fact obligated) to kill them...'
With what shall you kill them?
"If Arabs directly come into your area and present a real risk to your life "
אפי' לא באו אלא על עסקי תבן וקש
All these arguments are futile and silly. Each side brings some words of Chazal that show's his view point OR twists it to accommodate the view they want to promote.
Imagine America or England on the eve of WWII had people arguing about this.? Those countries were forced to protect themselves from extinction, and called up every able bodied man to defend it. They just ignored all the rhetoric. They said great, tell us again why we have no right to draft you, while walking them to the army intake bases.
Here it is the same, we should stop all the nonsense and just compel every able bodied man to do his duty . Let them argue their arguments - but go straight right into the army.
I personally am amused about this whole thing, because there will come a time when those that get the fright they are losing their country, that their patents fought so hard for. They will rise up and take it back. It might happen before, or the latest right when the majority in Israel turn Frum.
Most experts understand this, and are quietly saying it - it is only a matter of time before there will be an uprising by the non-religious, and they will just take back their country. There were disagreements among them, some claimed once the Charedi get the majority, they will govern fairly and not like the older generation. That is out the window as the younger generation is more fanatical then the old ones . Others said the Chlonim will just leave, - however not one thinker says they will live under a regime where some Rebbe will be telling them what they could watch on TV or about anything else in their lives. That is gone as they realize the world is anti-Semitic and they can't go anywhere. (they are saying it already in their demonstrations - we have no where to go). So what is left - an upraising. Most think it will be a short and not too a bloody coup, The charedim are great when demonstrating but once a gun is pointed at them, they scatter. However the "wild card" are the Daati Leumi, will they will fight back, (they are also trained as soldiers) then it can get real bloody R'L. Most say that will not happen , reasoning, the Chlonim would see it a second fight for their country, however the Daati Leumi would not be fighting for survival, (might not be exactly happy), however, they will not raise a gun against their brothers, reasoning both ways they are still protected and they have a secure State to live in
So until that day comes, keep up the shenanigans - to go not to go? Bring all kinds of arguments, it makes no difference anyway. Sit back and watch the fun for now.
I personally hope this can be solved peacefully by all those that don't want to contribute to the upkeep of the land, or those that hate the Zionist should leave. Poland, England, Germany, would welcome them with open arms. Leave the land and country to those that love it, and desire it to be a protection for Yidden for future generations.....What is wrong with this argument ?
In my tradition we believe in the idea of a "just war'. No sane man or woman wants war, but to defend your wife, your children, your community and your culture,; we must sometimes be prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice.
Anarchy is against the law!
Irony is like food under Communism. Not everyone gets it.
I was thinking that when I saw your comment. In addition I know your mind set. but was still kind of wondering?
When I write irony I give it away, I would write 'Oh my God Anarchy is against the law" But my bad here . Anyway refreshing to see those, where we think rationally, and leave superstition and fanaticism at the door - Good luck on everything
You are 100% right, Anancy is against the law. However, If we want to stay alive or not be brutalized by others - what choice do we really have? How long do you think a country will last in such an hostile environment, should it be run by Rosh Yeshivas or Rebbes. Do you really think they can make required strategy and sound decisions to protect the country? . My friend, you don't have 70 year that the Gidolim all said Israel wont last more than that. You don't even have 7 years before we are run over. We tried this way of thinking already in Europe, and see how that turned out! Hashem want us NOT to listen to those who are not experts in that field, but wants us to do what is normally required in those situations. So yes , I understand anarchy is the only way my grandchildren or great grandchildren will not suffer, as my parents suffered so much in their lives. There is a saying "you have to do what you gotta to do". The others can run to the "Sanah Tokief" screaming it is not fair.
"How long do you think a country will last in such an hostile environment, should it be run by Rosh Yeshivas or Rebbes. "
תָּנוּ רַבָּנַן, שִׁבְעָה דְּבָרִים צִוָּה רַבִּי עֲקִיבָא אֶת רַבִּי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ בְּנוֹ: בְּנִי...וְאַל תָּדוּר בְּעִיר שֶׁרָאשֶׁיהָ תַּלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים.
רש"י ואל תדור בעיר שראשיה תלמידי חכמים - דטרוד בגרסיה ולא במילי דציבורא
No. The law mandates anarchy.
Those who fulfill the law are thus anarchists.
Those who break the law are anarchists.
It's the opposite of a Catch-22; everyone wins.
Wow, you almost sound excited by the idea of a minority violently and undemocratically seizing power.
That's exactly what will happen. Won't be the first time in the world such a bizarre thing happens. In reality -They could still claim it is democratic by passing a law - not going to the army, not to do your duty to the country, you lose your voting rights, any and all government programs, etc. So technically it is still a democratic country, just with strong obligations to its defense.
That's entirely different.
The only way such a law gets passed without people getting shot is if they swallow their pride and work together with the normies on the other side of the aisle. And they have proven themselves incapable of doing so, the hate runs so deep.
"If the growing community of one million charedim does not radically change its approach to the army and the economy, all our lives will be at risk."
I followed the link. It went to a J-Post article which is shrill disjointed nonsense. "In the current system of government, the growth of the haredi population will give haredi leadership the ability to ensure overrepresentation of its population in legislation, thus enabling its leadership to harm the liberal characteristics of the state, said the letter.
The economists called for wide-ranging reforms in education; dividing the security burden between all the different parts of society; and changes to Israel’s governance system; including encoding liberal and democratic values in law in a way that prevents them from being eroded in the future."
These 'leading economists' don't seem to even have much to say about economics. The article reads more like a rough draft for a 'Movement For Quality Government' petition to the semi self appointed high court to order the democratically elected government to do something or other. (To protect democracy, of course.)
===
In general, your hysterics about looming charedi catastrophic growth are in tension with your claims about the necessity of the state. On your telling, https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/yes-we-needed-israel for 2000 years Jews endured torture and death at the hands of all manner of despots, then miraculously returned home..... only to pick and leave because there's too many people in bnei brak who don't participate in the miraculous redemption. It's just weird.
===
On a lighter note, I thought I'd juxtapose a few of your posts' titles.
"A Charedi Exodus?
The Exodus Disgrace Called Out
Who Has Another Land?
Some people do. But many others don't.
Coming to America
Here's my schedule"
.....enjoy your visit. Maybe check out some nice places to live in the 5 Towns in case charedim keep overpopulating.
It stems from an unwillingness to leave their comfort zone and change dysfunctional habits. And ironically, a lack of vision and spiritual leadership.
I'm a frum ex-charedi. I agree with your article wholeheartedly.
Last week I stumbled across R Aharon Lichtenstein's essay that you quote here. (In a non charedi but orthodox shul).
Imo, you have left out the most damning part of it; the following vignette. I also quote the part after, as it's written so beautifully.
In making any assessment, it is important that we approach the subject with full awareness of the military ramifications – a point not always sufficiently heeded. The story is reliably told of a leading rosh yeshiva who, at the height of the controversy over the drafting of women, back in the Fifties, attended a wedding near the Israeli-Arab border in Jerusalem. At one point, gunfire was suddenly heard and he scurried under a table, exclaiming passionately, “Ribbono shel olam, I want to live! There is much Torah which I yet wish to learn and create!” Whereupon a rather insensitive observer approached him and asked, “Nu, rebbe, was sagt ihr itzer wegen giyus banot?” (Well, rabbi, what do you say now about giyus banot?) And he kept quiet. I cite the story not because I favor the induction of women – under present circumstances, I very much oppose it – nor to impugn the memory of a truly great person, but in order to point out that, at a certain distance, one can lose sight of the simple truth that a Jewish soul can only exist within a Jewish body.
That nagging truth persists, however, and its appreciation is central to the understanding of an institution designed to reconcile the conflicting claims of spirituality and security, of talmud Torah and gemilut chasadim, of personal growth and public service. The present dilemma posed by these claims is not of our choosing. The response, however, is; and, in this respect, yeshivot hesder are a conspectus of our collective anomaly: a nation with outstretched palm and mailed fist, striving for peace and yet training for war. For the foreseeable future, this is our situation… Hence, within the context of our “station and its duties,” hesder is, for bnei Torah, the imperative of the moment. May G-d grant us a better station. In the meantime, however, if it is to become no worse, we must keep both our spirits and our guard up. Animated by vision and yet chary of danger, we, of yeshivot hesder, pray that He may grant us the wisdom and the courage to cope with the challenges of time… Standing in tears atop Har HaZeitim, the bleak sight of kol hamekudash mechavero charev yoter mechavero stretching before him, what would the Ramban have given to head a yeshivat hesder?
Such a shame that almost eight months after Oct 7, none of the "Giants of our Generation" have published a comprehensive teshuva on the matter of milchemes mitzvah b'zman hazeh in light of the Oct 7 attack. And we instead have to rely on the arguments put forth by haredi commentators on this blog, doing their best to guess what the arguments are.
(By a teshuva, I mean something in classic teshuva form, reviewing the literature and going through ALL the arguments pro and con -- not just stating one's one position w/o substantively showing how the counter-arguments are less persuasive.)
Even if they did, you can be sure that it wouldn't be an honest halachic analysis, but rather one designed to show that charedim don't need to serve.
Which kind of contradicts the whole concept of consulting a posek, since the posek himself has a priori "interesim".
You can criticize the Chareidy society as much as you like. However there is IMO no alternative at the moment if you actually want to live a *torah* life.
Just take an average avreich from bney brak and compare them to the average D"L man. The former keeps halacha honestly, is not exposed to untznius movies and secular culture, does not waste endless amount of time browsing junk or semi-junk on his phone, his wife is dressed tznius, and the list goes on. On the D"L side on the other hand boys and girls mix together, there is full or substantial exposure to western junk, rabbanim make dishonest meikel psaks just to please the crowd, women are dressed untniusly to that extent or another. And I am not even talking about the very light D"L here. The average D"L would have no problem going to a secular gender-mixed university and risk is entire spiritual life just because "that's the way it is" or make up some dishonest reason (or have his rav make up for him) on why hashem actually *wants* him to go to university.
Is the above true about chardal as well? I admit it's not. However A. Chardal have their own issues with extreme militarizm, nationalism, made up mitvos and values, and in general way of thinking that sounds completely detached from reality (admittedly some chareidim give them good competition in the last point) B. IMO chardal wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Chareidim.
That's what I see as the problem with most of your posts against chareidim. You criticize them for this and that but you fail to point out that they are the only ones (or almost the only ones) who preserve most of the torah values.
The problem is with your definition of "most of the Torah values." You take very minor things and proclaim them to be more significant than very fundamental things about what it means to be a member of society.
Calling halacha and tznius minor things. Is this the DL attitude? It's obvious why chareidim don't want to convert to DL.
Relative to saving lives? Yes, it's minor. Someone who inverts this is a chossid shoteh.
Uh no. Saving lives is only important inasmuch as the halacha recognizes it as such. Sometimes halacha recognizes other values as superseding saving lives, and then we follow halacha. Someone who inverts this is just a plain shoteh.
great, show me where halacha says that tzniyus is more important than saving lives. I just quoted a source that says the exact opposite.
You only think this because you know nothing about halacha. The reason why the person is allowed to save the drowning woman is because it is not דרך חבה. On the other hand, if a man asks for a breach of tznius to save his life, the type of breach of tznius that more modern communities engage in totally nonchalantly-
משנה תורה, הלכות יסודי התורה ה׳
מי שנתן עיניו באשה וחלה ונטה למות ואמרו הרופאים אין לו רפואה עד שתבעל לו. ימות ואל תבעל לו אפלו היתה פנויה. ואפלו לדבר עמה מאחורי הגדר אין מורין לו בכך וימות ולא יורו לדבר עמה מאחורי הגדר שלא יהו בנות ישראל הפקר ויבואו בדברים אלו לפרץ בעריות:
A minor thing, huh?
*to be a jew.
Adraba
If the Chareidim are not able to live their "Torah life" in a manner that is societally and economically sustainable, then clearly their lifestyle is not the ideal. The Torah does not demand (or I would even say, allow) a lifestyle that requires depending on others for support, against their will. As I said in a comment on the previous post "The acheirim are getting tired"
"The former keeps halacha honestly,"
Completely incorrect. Chareidim keep a very narrow band of halochoh honestly. When it suits them, they find all sorts of heterim to permit whatever they wish- nursing home businesses sold on shabbos/YT with flimsy bits of paper - heter iskah for personal residential properties unconnected with business - completely ignoring zemanie tefillah with minyan factories - fraudulent benefit claims and all that goes with it. As for tznius, my wife tells me she is shocked at how some of the 'kollel wives' dress - modern charedi they call it. Rioting and property destruction,. Are you aware of the gur on gur violence? That's before we come on to the nepotism etc. But yeah, they are 'stark makpid' about a black spot on an esrog.
“Modern charedi” is being disingenuous. The “hot chanie” look is a HUGE predicate towards wanton adulterous behavior (and worse) throughout the entire spectrum of the charedi community
"But yeah, they are 'stark makpid' about a black spot on an esrog"
You make it sound very trivial. So here is a partial list of things that a typical litvish Israeli chareidy is makpid on. I suggest you take a few moments to think if a person who does everything below may deserve some of your appreciation.
1. He will make sure to check his new coat for shaatnez.
2.He will use a highly filtered internet. In some cases he will have no internet, and will go to an internet coffee to do arrangements (e.g. bank transfers)
3. He will only invest is money in places that have high level of hechsher. He will make sure his pension and other investments are in a kosher track.
4. He will make sure that he and all of his kids sleep in a sukah, and will go to a great extent to build his sukah in a place that allows for that.
5. He will go 6 floors up a few times every shabbes because he wouldn't rely on shabbes elevator.
The list goes on and on. I am sure that if you actually know some people like that (and that's a good percentage of this society you despise so much) you wouldn't just dismiss this as "'stark makpid' about a black spot on an esrog".
Every single chumrah you cite (because, other than sha’atnez, they are all chumrot, not mitzvot) is bein adam lamakom.
Which mitzvot bein adam lachaveiro are chareidim notably makpid on?
Lots of them. Going to Bes din as opposed to secular courts. Ribbis. Lashon Hara. Tzedakah/Maaser.
Lashon Horoh? You having a laugh? A typical charedi, who doesn't have the knowledge to discuss culture, sport, whatever, with friends will spend hours schmoozing about 'yene'. Often Yene's money. The non-talmidei chachomim section of chareidi society (ie most of them, who can't discuss torah) spend most of their recreational time gossiping and discussing other people!
And meanwhile, when lashon hara is actually a mitzvah (reporting pedophilia and other crimes), charedim are LESS likely to say it.
Everything after 1 and 2 are Quite trivial when compared the מצוות that other israelis keep.
Any sensible secular person who actually knows what serious chareidy life involves, would rather spend 6 years in the army than be chareidy.
Dosent mean a thing. Islams is also hard.
Try to follow the discussion. You said "1 and 2 are Quite trivial when compared the מצוות that other israelis keep.". I was responding to that.
Here's an Isreali charedie.....violence is endemic in that society....
https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/vandal-destroys-80-sheitels-in-jersualem-wig-shop-attack-wkjy79z2
To be sure, there's is too much hooliganism in the Charedi world. But endemic? I think you're exaggerating. It's not representative of the Charedi world, though I wish there was condemnation from the leadership.
There is no condemnation because they don't have a problem with. If the leaders don't have a problem with it, that means it is an endemioc problem. A feature, not a bug.
I don't think so. There could be other reasons why there isn't condemnation:
1) There actually could be condemnation, but not enough of it, or not loudly enough. There's ample reason (or excuse if you prefer) why not to make a public fuss of sins of the community.
2) By not condemning it, there's an implied (though ineffective) message that such hooligans are not bona fide members of the community and hence not within the "jurisdiction" of the leadership.
3) They don't want there to be any misunderstanding that would lead people to believe that the objects of the hooligans rage are undeserving of attack. Wig and smart-phone stores should be shut down, but only through boycott and protest. Arson is unacceptable, but can't be condemned too loudly, lest people not attack such places in more "legitimate" ways.
I have plenty to respond with, but I can't be bothered right now.
Suffice it to say, your Beiter or Kiryat Seifer 'typical litvish chareidi' is a very small percentage of those worldwide who consider themselves 'charedi', 'benei torah', 'heimish' or 'yeshvish'. Benie Berak is full of 'chareidim'. Ask your wife to look at the clothes some charedi wives wear parading down Rechov Rabbi Akiva on shabbos/YT.
Tell yourself whatever stories make you happy. Then walk into any random shul in the Reches, Sanedria, Kiryat Tzanz (Jerusalem) most of Bney Brak, Kiryat Sefer, Achisamach, Beiter, and do reality check.
What should I check exactly?
Skirt length 😂
Wow. What gaava. It dosent even enter your head that we might have a point, and that our rabanim know what they are talking about. Have you ever read שותים from our poskim or read any ספרי הרב קוק? You sound like one of the illiterates who wouldnt even be able to read. Thanks for proving slifkin right.
Has it occured to you that I might be actually familiar with certain D"L rabbanim approaches to halachic issues, and I am talking according to that? take the D"L approach to geirus, to give one example. Solve the demographic issue at the cost of throwing halacha down the drain.
Which psakim have you read? Many poskim argue and no more lenient.
And you're not arguing any of the points under discussion here, just sneeringly insinuating that ChanaRochel is not worthy to voice her opinion here
He was actually directing his comment at someone else (not sure who, as the thread is hard to follow), as I saw it before I wrote mine...
But thanks ;-)
Sorry if that wasnt clear
No harm, no foul
I’m 98.7% sure Avraham marcus was talking to Yoser (though it is admittedly hard to tell…)
Ofc
That was at Yosr
One contributor here, Ephraim, shared this video of Dr. Mordechai Kedar with me, on another discussion thread. It's a translation of a Hamas analysis of the effect of the war on Israeli society.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O9T6s6CGHI
I saw another video, where Gen. Yitzchak Brik discusses Dr. Kedar's analysis. He says that the army can't place itself 24/7 in Yehudah and Shomron, and along the Gaza border. Instead, we'll need a sort of National Guard, כיתות כוננות, where the citizens are armed and trained to protect their communities.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-hTew9L12s
(You can probably tell that I never served in the army. But, in some of the kibbutzim that were attacked on October 7th, the כיתת כוננות succeeded in repelling the Hamasnikim there.)
So.. when the chareidi protestors say they would rather die than be drafted.. then they are saying that they think that avoiding the draft should be punishable by death??
Who are we to argue?
What’s amazing is that the Lithuanian yeshiva world in aggregate probably spends more time earning the bench and banging the shtender on maseches bava basra than other tractate in the Talmud. And fundamentally it’s a tractate which almost entirely derived from the principles based on Ve'asisa hayashar vehatov, as explained by that Ramban. The fattest volume in the shas and one most studied in the yeshivas is almost entirely based on how to extrapolate moral values from the mitzvos to apply to other cases. And it’s precisely these values which are the ones most likely to be ignored by the community of the people doing this study.
I didn't read this post carefully, but based on what I read I could probably give it a like if it add the work 'spokesman' every time it says charedi. Charedi spokesmen truly are horrible. If you want to know what Charedim really believe go to a Bais Medrash and find a Talmid Chacham. Never listen to spokesmen.
However, this whole debate is so sad, as it is so shortsighted. You could fight around about all these details, but in the long run the only thing that will give Israel security is a major change in demographics. The Charedim are the key if Israel is to have a long-term stable existence. Certainly, the Charedim have major problems they need to work on, but when it comes tp the most important long-term issue they are the ones who get it.
Maybe the charedim should get new spokesmen then. Why don’t the talmidei chachachmim in the batei Midrash change spokesmen so then we will all be able to know what charedim REALLY believe?
That's like asking why 90% of the US and Israeli Medea are left leaning if that number does not reflect the real demographics. Its just how it is, and the nuts got the loudest voices.
That's what we need?! More spokesmen?!
גזר רבי שלא ישנו לתלמידים בשוק מאי דרש (שיר השירים ז, ב) חמוקי ירכיך כמו חלאים מה ירך בסתר אף דברי תורה בסתר
I would add that I learned this lesson the hard way; through my experience on this blog. Initially, when the OP started blogging about drafting Charedim I tried to have a serious conversation. However, I saw a clear pattern, where any serious high content comment explaining Charedim's position was completely ignored, unless the OP (or a crony) found some word that he felt was misplaced and he could make a snarky comment about it. Initially I was bothered by this. However, when I thought about it, I realized that I never should have expected any different. After all, these are complicated intricate sugyos which vary greatly based on the specific situation. Therefore, the answer can only be found in the Bais Medrash, in a high-level conversation with serious Talmidei Chachamim, not though soundbites online.