Off topic of this Dinosaur piece, I just received my Lions of Zion book in the post. It’s such a wonderful book that everyone should have in their library! I managed to read 119 pages over the Chag. I have all your books and this one doesn’t disappoint! Though as a vegetarian, I’ll never eat Locusts, even if they are Kosher and killed humanely.😽
According to the logic of reading the first Perek of Bereishit in simple terms only, I can also read “ the Hand of HaShem, the Outstretched Arm , the Mighty Hand “‘literally too. And the Rambam didn’t think much of those who read those statements literally. Hilchot Teshuva Perek 3.
And the Rambam seemed quite motivated to give a vivid description of Aristotle’s structure of the Universe in Hilchot Yesodei HaTorah as a prerequisite for Ahavat HaShem by understanding the nature of Creation . That is far beyond the simple text of Bereishit . THAT simple text was written for children to have a basic grasp of the Divinity of Nature-Ramban in his Derasha “ Torat HaShem Temima”.
Re "Ever since October 7th, it all seems so trivial."
Reminds me of the following quote from William Shatner, Star Trek actor and space enthusiast, upon actually going to space at age 90:
"when I looked in the opposite direction, into space, there was no mystery, no majestic awe to behold . . . all I saw was death. I saw a cold, dark, black emptiness. It was unlike any blackness you can see or feel on Earth. It was deep, enveloping, all-encompassing. I turned back toward the light of home. I could see the curvature of Earth, the beige of the desert, the white of the clouds and the blue of the sky. It was life. Nurturing, sustaining, life. Mother Earth. Gaia. And I was leaving her. ... It was among the strongest feelings of grief I have ever encountered. The contrast between the vicious coldness of space and the warm nurturing of Earth below filled me with overwhelming sadness."
In the end, it is human beings and human lives (and on a much lower level, animal lives), and the ideas and values which improve human life, which matter. Everything else in the world is trivial.
That's why constantly focusing on the otherworldly/supernatural can be so harmful. I think some people need to be reminded that it was Hashem, not the "yetzer hara", who created planet Earth, and placed us into it to thrive.
"The charedi refusal to accept the existence of the dinosaur eras or even address the challenge that dinosaurs raise is all part of their approach of intense isolation."
That may be true, but I think the more salient connection is their willingness to posit miracles as explanations to paper over any inconsistencies in their worldview. If that's correct, then explaining why modern science should be accepted *would* help solve this bigger problem (to the extent that they accept the explanation, which is highly dubious in itself).
The Rabbi speaking in the video is not Rabbi Feldman but Rabbi Scheiner.
His point at the end seems to refute his premise. He objects to the scientist’s refusal to acknowledge the creator of the “big bang” for being blind to the obvious implication that the universe has an author yet he uses the same atitutude as if to say that if he is allowed to ignore the theological evidence then we are allowed to ignore the scientific evidence. Pursuit of truth should demand that we should ignore nothing.
I appreciate the links to older articles. The issues they discuss go beyond the age of the earth.
Ignorance is not limited to science but also “common knowledge” and behavioral and social norms, which can lead to dangerous behaviors and attitudes.
The lion story in “Art by God” reminded me of the time a “yeshiva bochur” came to me for a ketubah and told me he wanted flowers on it.
I asked him if he wanted roses. His response, “What do they look like?” I had to resort to taking out a picture book of flowers and showing him illustrations of flowers he could choose from.
In my community men regularly walk down dark streets at night, dressed in black, with backs to oncoming traffic. Traffic “suggestions” like stop signs, one way streets, and right of way are frequently disregarded. Drinking and driving on Purim is common. Immunization guidelines are ignored and immunization records are falsified. Littering and scattering children’s toys in public areas is considered acceptable.
Debasing and invalidating “secular studies” leads to far more than “ignorance” about dinosaurs….
Well said Natan. Completely different topics or do they reveal their archaic uninformed mindset?? Separately, check out this video from Nachiel "Museum Guy" Cohen DINOSAURS IN GENESIS?! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8lO2Ek7TdQ
Going off on a tangent, the bipolar (3x) bear reminded me of George Carlin doing a bit on Mongolia, which has Inner M and Outer M, each of which has an inner and outer. So, Mongolia is comprised of Inner Inner M, Inner Outer M, Outer Inner M and Outer Outer M. Imagine the road signs :)
>"The charedi refusal to accept the existence of the dinosaur eras or even address the challenge that dinosaurs raise is all part of their approach of intense isolation."
I don't think that's true. You had it right the first time: it's due to their non-scientific and non-rationalist belief system. This is tangential to being isolationist. For example, a significant percentage of Americans don't belief in evolution. This is due to their fundamentalist Christian background and non-scientific beliefs
When you give your presentation on the "art of the Ark", do you explain that the entire Flood story is impossible? Or do you assume your audience knows it's impossible? Or do you assume they think it's true, and you don't challenge their childish beliefs?
You could also debate whether or not the Flood is a historical event, and whether it occurred literally as described. Or you can ignore that aspect and just focus on the nimshal without addressing the historicity of the mashal
With all due respect, it's not that interesting, it's pretty typical. Art history is about art, not about the historical objects depicted. Someone studying artistic depictions of foundational stories in religious texts rarely discusses the historicity of the story itself
Rabbi Slifkin doesn't run an art museum. I presume the purpose of a natural history museum is to present the truth about the natural world. Encouraging people to believe that all the world's animals rode on a boat for 40 days or whatever does not really seem to comport with that mission. If the purpose of the art exhibit is to illustrate how absurd that idea actually is, then I'm OK with that.
How shameful and unhinged a person you must be to post this publicly. Is this what they teach you in your Yeshiva? You’re in need of a 72 hour lockdown in a psych ward on a Thorazine drip. There’s nothing Torah about you or your disgusting behaviour. Shame on you!
Oh, I forgot to add: What do you call a dinosaur that believes in its own existence? An Apikorusaurus.
and what do you call a very rich dinosaur? George Sorous!
Hairatick!
Off topic of this Dinosaur piece, I just received my Lions of Zion book in the post. It’s such a wonderful book that everyone should have in their library! I managed to read 119 pages over the Chag. I have all your books and this one doesn’t disappoint! Though as a vegetarian, I’ll never eat Locusts, even if they are Kosher and killed humanely.😽
According to the logic of reading the first Perek of Bereishit in simple terms only, I can also read “ the Hand of HaShem, the Outstretched Arm , the Mighty Hand “‘literally too. And the Rambam didn’t think much of those who read those statements literally. Hilchot Teshuva Perek 3.
And the Rambam seemed quite motivated to give a vivid description of Aristotle’s structure of the Universe in Hilchot Yesodei HaTorah as a prerequisite for Ahavat HaShem by understanding the nature of Creation . That is far beyond the simple text of Bereishit . THAT simple text was written for children to have a basic grasp of the Divinity of Nature-Ramban in his Derasha “ Torat HaShem Temima”.
Re "Ever since October 7th, it all seems so trivial."
Reminds me of the following quote from William Shatner, Star Trek actor and space enthusiast, upon actually going to space at age 90:
"when I looked in the opposite direction, into space, there was no mystery, no majestic awe to behold . . . all I saw was death. I saw a cold, dark, black emptiness. It was unlike any blackness you can see or feel on Earth. It was deep, enveloping, all-encompassing. I turned back toward the light of home. I could see the curvature of Earth, the beige of the desert, the white of the clouds and the blue of the sky. It was life. Nurturing, sustaining, life. Mother Earth. Gaia. And I was leaving her. ... It was among the strongest feelings of grief I have ever encountered. The contrast between the vicious coldness of space and the warm nurturing of Earth below filled me with overwhelming sadness."
In the end, it is human beings and human lives (and on a much lower level, animal lives), and the ideas and values which improve human life, which matter. Everything else in the world is trivial.
That's why constantly focusing on the otherworldly/supernatural can be so harmful. I think some people need to be reminded that it was Hashem, not the "yetzer hara", who created planet Earth, and placed us into it to thrive.
"The charedi refusal to accept the existence of the dinosaur eras or even address the challenge that dinosaurs raise is all part of their approach of intense isolation."
That may be true, but I think the more salient connection is their willingness to posit miracles as explanations to paper over any inconsistencies in their worldview. If that's correct, then explaining why modern science should be accepted *would* help solve this bigger problem (to the extent that they accept the explanation, which is highly dubious in itself).
Franz Rosenzweig, arguably the ideological grandfather of Bar Ilan Univeristy, also saw the Jews as living outside of history.
I don't think that you can compare that to the idea of charedim not having civic duties.
If you believe that only Charedim obey God's will, and
צדיקים מלאכתם נעשית בידי אחרים
you can get there fairly easily.
Please define צדיקים and מלאכה in this context. As a bonus, define אחרים.
The Rabbi speaking in the video is not Rabbi Feldman but Rabbi Scheiner.
His point at the end seems to refute his premise. He objects to the scientist’s refusal to acknowledge the creator of the “big bang” for being blind to the obvious implication that the universe has an author yet he uses the same atitutude as if to say that if he is allowed to ignore the theological evidence then we are allowed to ignore the scientific evidence. Pursuit of truth should demand that we should ignore nothing.
I appreciate the links to older articles. The issues they discuss go beyond the age of the earth.
Ignorance is not limited to science but also “common knowledge” and behavioral and social norms, which can lead to dangerous behaviors and attitudes.
The lion story in “Art by God” reminded me of the time a “yeshiva bochur” came to me for a ketubah and told me he wanted flowers on it.
I asked him if he wanted roses. His response, “What do they look like?” I had to resort to taking out a picture book of flowers and showing him illustrations of flowers he could choose from.
In my community men regularly walk down dark streets at night, dressed in black, with backs to oncoming traffic. Traffic “suggestions” like stop signs, one way streets, and right of way are frequently disregarded. Drinking and driving on Purim is common. Immunization guidelines are ignored and immunization records are falsified. Littering and scattering children’s toys in public areas is considered acceptable.
Debasing and invalidating “secular studies” leads to far more than “ignorance” about dinosaurs….
Well said Natan. Completely different topics or do they reveal their archaic uninformed mindset?? Separately, check out this video from Nachiel "Museum Guy" Cohen DINOSAURS IN GENESIS?! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8lO2Ek7TdQ
Hello there Natan, you share some interests that I do, so I thought I’d introduce myself friend!.
I share a philosophic look at written histories, histories not acknowledged in modern academia.
This is one about Giants:
https://open.substack.com/pub/jordannuttall/p/giants-in-newspapers?r=4f55i2&utm_medium=ios
As Galileo reputedly said, so we must insist, "E pur si muove" ("and still it moves")
Going off on a tangent, the bipolar (3x) bear reminded me of George Carlin doing a bit on Mongolia, which has Inner M and Outer M, each of which has an inner and outer. So, Mongolia is comprised of Inner Inner M, Inner Outer M, Outer Inner M and Outer Outer M. Imagine the road signs :)
I didn’t realize it was you against the 36 gedoilim, the Lamed Vavniks…😜😜😜
Actually, Rav Elyashiv said that *I* could be one of the Lamed Vav tzadikim!
Your greatness is not a secret. It’s well known to us all….
>"The charedi refusal to accept the existence of the dinosaur eras or even address the challenge that dinosaurs raise is all part of their approach of intense isolation."
I don't think that's true. You had it right the first time: it's due to their non-scientific and non-rationalist belief system. This is tangential to being isolationist. For example, a significant percentage of Americans don't belief in evolution. This is due to their fundamentalist Christian background and non-scientific beliefs
But read my post contrasting the Christian approach with the charedi approach. That's why I think it's primarily due to isolationism.
When you give your presentation on the "art of the Ark", do you explain that the entire Flood story is impossible? Or do you assume your audience knows it's impossible? Or do you assume they think it's true, and you don't challenge their childish beliefs?
It's about the Art of the Ark, not anything else.
So it's about the Art of the Ark, but not the Ark. Interesting line you walk.
You could also debate whether or not the Flood is a historical event, and whether it occurred literally as described. Or you can ignore that aspect and just focus on the nimshal without addressing the historicity of the mashal
With all due respect, it's not that interesting, it's pretty typical. Art history is about art, not about the historical objects depicted. Someone studying artistic depictions of foundational stories in religious texts rarely discusses the historicity of the story itself
Rabbi Slifkin doesn't run an art museum. I presume the purpose of a natural history museum is to present the truth about the natural world. Encouraging people to believe that all the world's animals rode on a boat for 40 days or whatever does not really seem to comport with that mission. If the purpose of the art exhibit is to illustrate how absurd that idea actually is, then I'm OK with that.
It's not doing either of those.
How shameful and unhinged a person you must be to post this publicly. Is this what they teach you in your Yeshiva? You’re in need of a 72 hour lockdown in a psych ward on a Thorazine drip. There’s nothing Torah about you or your disgusting behaviour. Shame on you!