There wont be a ban, mainstream orthodoxy doesn't have time to waste on such trivialities.
Look, Gorfinkle is a real good guy and a tremendous artistic talent, including music. (His Voices for Israel, in the wake of the terrorism wrought by the Oslo insanity, was a masterpiece.) And its certainly true that a picture is worth a thousand words. But MO generally and Koren specifically have already started down the path of feminism, which is where all modern initiatives go to die. So they make the 4 sons into girls, and Esther is the leader, and next Miriam will have a bigger role, and then they'll include the Immos in the Amidah, and then they'll have a Rabbah, and then - - -who cares? This is 21st century American naarishkeit. The people stupid enough to follow it, like those stupid enough to believe in Oslo before them, arent the people you want on your team. They're not the ones Judaism was built open. Let them play these silly games. If the guys have no problem bringing baby carriers to shul on the way to going grocery shopping, and if they want to watch their children abandon religion, that's their business.
Stuart Halpern of the Jewish Review of Books just reviewed the book. Didn't say a word about gender or girls. Either he underplayed it or NS overplayed it. Which is it?
Showed my kids that beautiful cartoon on YouTube around Chanukah time.
The most interesting thing was: after the story opens with Alexander violently conquering and Hellenizing the Near East, my 8-year-old turned to me and said, "wait, Alexander the Great was a BAD GUY??"
"Megillas Esther"? It's "Megillat Esther" according to the publisher, and to normative Israeli pronunciation.
And the actual publication omits the מגילה prefix. It's interesting that the other 4 מגילות are usually just referred to by their name - I don't think I have ever heard someone say "מגילת קוהלת" or "מגילת שיר השירים ". Perhaps it's because אסתר is the only one that is usually read from a manuscript? I know that there are some places that read the other מגילות from manuscript with a ברכה.
It's a Freudian slip. As much as Natan/Nosson has transformed from chareidi to MO, he still cannot remove his chareidi identity. Which is why he has this very strange obsession with chareidim. Because he still feels like he's one of them.
A Sefardi would say "Megillat"! And the publishers of the book call it Megillat.
When you speak French you follow French pronunciation. When you speak German you follow German pronunciation. There is only one country that uses Hebrew.
That is quite an odd hill to choose to die on. Historically, there have been many ways to pronounce Hebrew. Who gives a hoot which one Israel as a country adapted? That does not make it any more "correct" than the others.
There have been numerous examples of Haggadah's and Megilas Esther that have pictures (or illuminations, for the academics) for at least 600-700 years.
Last week, I went to a talk about the Rylands Haggadah in Manchester from the 14th Century.
There is a Mishna that says something like from this age to this age: study scripture. From this age to this age one should study mishna. From this age to this age talmud. Finally at age 40: study Zohar. The standard explanation, is I believe, that one needs these fundamentals and maturity to absorb the Zohar. An alternative explanation is that if none of these subjects "have worked" for one to embrace Judaism then give Zohar a try.
The same for these illustrated Migalla and Haggadah. For the erudite readers of this blog, for those fluent in Hebrew, and for those who are "all in" for Torah and mitzvot, these editions are unnecessary and can appear as trivial. One should be cautious that your world, your view, your perspective is not everybody else's.
Let everybody get involved in Judaism at their level and for what moves them. Let us celebrate our commonalities and worry less about our differences.
This would be fine, but it's not what this post is about. RDNS has discovered a cartoon book that is supposed to make Judaism finally 'real' for everyone. This is rediculos and a new bottom.
Just read the heading of the post 'makes Judaism real'! Lol! Nothing could be further from the truth. Incidentally, which of the four sons are daughters? The girls in the charedi families ask all four kashios and nobody has any issue with this. This is a comedy.
Mogen Dovid on her chest? The idea was she would hide her religion, no? Apart from the fact nobody's quite sure where the mogen dovid comes from, anyway.
These Hagadda and Megillah may be nice works for the non-observant, MO or DL communities, but no יראי השם should offer them to their children and they won't.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Also, from the purely evolutionary viewpoint Deri benefits the community, Koren Haggadah and Megilah don't. The only evolutionary morality is the survival of the fittest. Charedim are more evolutionary fit, wheather you like it or not, and will inherit the earth.
Did Deri play a role with banning your books? Seems like the only thing on your mind.
Either way, what is your point? Are you trying to say that Deri would not have made it our of Mitzrayim, but Ben Gurion would have? Or they both would have? Or both wouldn't have? You gotta make up your mind.
Another deflectionary response. Quite amusing how you lot wriggle like a fish on a hook when you can't deal with the issue. Which you understand full well. Despite your claims of not understanding.
Well if you deflect off of deflection you get back to the point.
The point was that it's inappropriate to portray evil people walking out of Mitzraim with Moshe Rabbeinu. Natan deflected with his now stale Deri tirade.
So I deflected back to the original point, which he hasn't addressed.
It may be considered appropriate by Koren and its customer base to be inclusive of erev rav, but for anyone who wants to see future generations עוסקים בתורה ובמצוות it's בל יראה ובל ימצא.
Citation needed that he wanted to do so? Anyways, I do feel it is somewhat inappropriate as Ben Gurion may not have believed in the exodus, but it's certainly not enough to pasul the whole haggadah.
Ben Gurion probably did believe in the historicity of the Exodus. Though not a מאמין in the conventional sense, he was also not into biblical criticism of either the "higher" or lower variety. He hosted regular bible classes (which, mind you, certainly included HU apikorsim among the attendees) he cited the bible constantly, and I recall reading he said over a vort once on the word אלף to try to explain the difficult 600,000 number. Like many of us with many things, he was selective about when be accepted it as gospel and when not. And he was slippery enough as a politician, just like he was with the Arab question, to give different answers on his religious beliefs to different people, so that there's no good way to pin him down.
הגלויות המתחסלות והמתכנסות בישראל אינם מהוות עדיין עם, אלא ערב רב ואבק אדם, ללא לשון, ללא חינוך, ללא שורשים, הפיכת אבק אדם לאומה תרבותית היא מלאכה לא קלה."
Does this new megilla merely translate the text, or do they bring down the relevant gemaras and midrashim? Do they mention the Rabbinic fact that Esti and Motel were married, and they continued intimacy while Esther was married to to the king?
There is also a midrash that says that Esther never went to Achashverosh. Instead a שדה took her place every time. How could Esther, who was compared to Schinah have anything to do with an animal like Achashverosh?
I'm sure that neither are included. These publications are totally inappropriate for bringing up frum children, רחמנא לצלן.
Indeed! But not for the reasons that you infer. The Esther fable never occurred. It’s a farce. Google the historicity of Esther and you’ll see why you needn’t rely on shaydim to resolve your difficulties.
Leave it to a True Believer chareidi half-wit to insult rather than debate.
Sometimes you can prove a negative such as the fable of Queen Esther. You arrive at that conclusion by examining the internal evidence of the Esther tall-tale. I’m not going to articulate all the evidence for the falsity of that myth out of deference for the religious beliefs of the Baal HaBlog.
Just do a Google search on the Historicity of Esther, to educate yourself. Perhaps you might convince me of your evidence to the contrary?
Or inform me of your emails address and I’ll forward mountains of evidence that the fable was a figment of a very talented mind.
Clearly the talmud doesn't hold of that obscure midrash. K'asher avadetei avadetei and all that. In fact, her hetter according to the ba'al tosfos who does not hold bias goy is 'ok', (can't remember offhand whether its ri or rt) esther simply did not have a hetter for the ratzon time. Acharonim struggle with that but none provide a real answer.
There wont be a ban, mainstream orthodoxy doesn't have time to waste on such trivialities.
Look, Gorfinkle is a real good guy and a tremendous artistic talent, including music. (His Voices for Israel, in the wake of the terrorism wrought by the Oslo insanity, was a masterpiece.) And its certainly true that a picture is worth a thousand words. But MO generally and Koren specifically have already started down the path of feminism, which is where all modern initiatives go to die. So they make the 4 sons into girls, and Esther is the leader, and next Miriam will have a bigger role, and then they'll include the Immos in the Amidah, and then they'll have a Rabbah, and then - - -who cares? This is 21st century American naarishkeit. The people stupid enough to follow it, like those stupid enough to believe in Oslo before them, arent the people you want on your team. They're not the ones Judaism was built open. Let them play these silly games. If the guys have no problem bringing baby carriers to shul on the way to going grocery shopping, and if they want to watch their children abandon religion, that's their business.
Stuart Halpern of the Jewish Review of Books just reviewed the book. Didn't say a word about gender or girls. Either he underplayed it or NS overplayed it. Which is it?
Anyone remember the brilliant Chanukkah animated cartoon “lights”??? Memorable. Is it still around???
Showed my kids that beautiful cartoon on YouTube around Chanukah time.
The most interesting thing was: after the story opens with Alexander violently conquering and Hellenizing the Near East, my 8-year-old turned to me and said, "wait, Alexander the Great was a BAD GUY??"
https://youtu.be/Pm0NEeWDZqc
Enjoy!
Thanks so much!
"Megillas Esther"? It's "Megillat Esther" according to the publisher, and to normative Israeli pronunciation.
And the actual publication omits the מגילה prefix. It's interesting that the other 4 מגילות are usually just referred to by their name - I don't think I have ever heard someone say "מגילת קוהלת" or "מגילת שיר השירים ". Perhaps it's because אסתר is the only one that is usually read from a manuscript? I know that there are some places that read the other מגילות from manuscript with a ברכה.
It's a Freudian slip. As much as Natan/Nosson has transformed from chareidi to MO, he still cannot remove his chareidi identity. Which is why he has this very strange obsession with chareidim. Because he still feels like he's one of them.
Are you going to tell a Yemenite or a Sefardi to use normative Israeli pronouncation? מנהג אבותינו בידינו.
A Sefardi would say "Megillat"! And the publishers of the book call it Megillat.
When you speak French you follow French pronunciation. When you speak German you follow German pronunciation. There is only one country that uses Hebrew.
That is quite an odd hill to choose to die on. Historically, there have been many ways to pronounce Hebrew. Who gives a hoot which one Israel as a country adapted? That does not make it any more "correct" than the others.
Not quite sure what the חידוש is in this post.
There have been numerous examples of Haggadah's and Megilas Esther that have pictures (or illuminations, for the academics) for at least 600-700 years.
Last week, I went to a talk about the Rylands Haggadah in Manchester from the 14th Century.
See:
https://www.digitalcollections.manchester.ac.uk/view/MS-HEBREW-00006/33
to judge the quality of it.
Maybe you should keep your Graphic Novel version for the next generations. As this Haggadah is now worth millions.
There is a Mishna that says something like from this age to this age: study scripture. From this age to this age one should study mishna. From this age to this age talmud. Finally at age 40: study Zohar. The standard explanation, is I believe, that one needs these fundamentals and maturity to absorb the Zohar. An alternative explanation is that if none of these subjects "have worked" for one to embrace Judaism then give Zohar a try.
The same for these illustrated Migalla and Haggadah. For the erudite readers of this blog, for those fluent in Hebrew, and for those who are "all in" for Torah and mitzvot, these editions are unnecessary and can appear as trivial. One should be cautious that your world, your view, your perspective is not everybody else's.
Let everybody get involved in Judaism at their level and for what moves them. Let us celebrate our commonalities and worry less about our differences.
Chag Sameach
@David Silberman
This would be fine, but it's not what this post is about. RDNS has discovered a cartoon book that is supposed to make Judaism finally 'real' for everyone. This is rediculos and a new bottom.
I stand corrected. ....it mentions binah (wisdom)
Nosson - Megillas
Natan - Megillat
Just read the heading of the post 'makes Judaism real'! Lol! Nothing could be further from the truth. Incidentally, which of the four sons are daughters? The girls in the charedi families ask all four kashios and nobody has any issue with this. This is a comedy.
Mogen Dovid on her chest? The idea was she would hide her religion, no? Apart from the fact nobody's quite sure where the mogen dovid comes from, anyway.
These Hagadda and Megillah may be nice works for the non-observant, MO or DL communities, but no יראי השם should offer them to their children and they won't.
Sounds like another book ban in the offing.
I'd never seen either and I'm pretty open minded and liberal, so a ban is unlikely.
Why? I found the haggadah to be well done.
I'm sure it is, but it's inappropriate for Moshe Rabbeinu to be crossing the ים סוף with Ben Gurion, who ביקש לעקור את הכל.
These Yirei Hashem seem quite happy to see pictures of Gedolei Torah with Aryeh Deri, Yaakov Litzman, Yaakov Tessler and Yonah Metzger.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Also, from the purely evolutionary viewpoint Deri benefits the community, Koren Haggadah and Megilah don't. The only evolutionary morality is the survival of the fittest. Charedim are more evolutionary fit, wheather you like it or not, and will inherit the earth.
Lol, like comparing a guy with a traffic ticket to John Wayne Gacy.
Typical deflectionary respose without addressing the actual issue.
What's the actual issue sir?
Maimonides explains the difference between the likes of Ben-Gurion and the people you mention. See Intro to final Perek of Sanhedrin.
Did Deri play a role with banning your books? Seems like the only thing on your mind.
Either way, what is your point? Are you trying to say that Deri would not have made it our of Mitzrayim, but Ben Gurion would have? Or they both would have? Or both wouldn't have? You gotta make up your mind.
Another deflectionary response. Quite amusing how you lot wriggle like a fish on a hook when you can't deal with the issue. Which you understand full well. Despite your claims of not understanding.
Well if you deflect off of deflection you get back to the point.
The point was that it's inappropriate to portray evil people walking out of Mitzraim with Moshe Rabbeinu. Natan deflected with his now stale Deri tirade.
So I deflected back to the original point, which he hasn't addressed.
comprende?
Ben Gurion was part of the ערב רב - so it's very accurate!
He was part of the 4/5 that died by מכת חושך
It may be considered appropriate by Koren and its customer base to be inclusive of erev rav, but for anyone who wants to see future generations עוסקים בתורה ובמצוות it's בל יראה ובל ימצא.
About Ben Gurion:
מה העבודה הזאת לכם - לכם ולא לו... אילו היה שם, לא היה נגאל
Citation needed that he wanted to do so? Anyways, I do feel it is somewhat inappropriate as Ben Gurion may not have believed in the exodus, but it's certainly not enough to pasul the whole haggadah.
Ben Gurion probably did believe in the historicity of the Exodus. Though not a מאמין in the conventional sense, he was also not into biblical criticism of either the "higher" or lower variety. He hosted regular bible classes (which, mind you, certainly included HU apikorsim among the attendees) he cited the bible constantly, and I recall reading he said over a vort once on the word אלף to try to explain the difficult 600,000 number. Like many of us with many things, he was selective about when be accepted it as gospel and when not. And he was slippery enough as a politician, just like he was with the Arab question, to give different answers on his religious beliefs to different people, so that there's no good way to pin him down.
הגלויות המתחסלות והמתכנסות בישראל אינם מהוות עדיין עם, אלא ערב רב ואבק אדם, ללא לשון, ללא חינוך, ללא שורשים, הפיכת אבק אדם לאומה תרבותית היא מלאכה לא קלה."
רחמנא ליצלן
Does this new megilla merely translate the text, or do they bring down the relevant gemaras and midrashim? Do they mention the Rabbinic fact that Esti and Motel were married, and they continued intimacy while Esther was married to to the king?
Prince of Egypt post with comments: https://rationalistjudaism.blogspot.com/2010/12/prince-of-egypt.html
Please Natan, can you always link the original version of the post as well so we can read the comments?
There is also a midrash that says that Esther never went to Achashverosh. Instead a שדה took her place every time. How could Esther, who was compared to Schinah have anything to do with an animal like Achashverosh?
I'm sure that neither are included. These publications are totally inappropriate for bringing up frum children, רחמנא לצלן.
@ Yakov
Indeed! But not for the reasons that you infer. The Esther fable never occurred. It’s a farce. Google the historicity of Esther and you’ll see why you needn’t rely on shaydim to resolve your difficulties.
The real story that didn't happen is your birth. You were never born, and that is the answer to everything.
@זכרון דברים
You’re an amazing rhetorician. You elevate non-sequiturs to levels even Bertrand Russel would have have missed.
Had you been admitted to Harvard, the Debate Club would have given you a seat by the Eastern Wall.
Tell me, were you born a shmock? Or did you spend lots of time practicing?
How can you state categorically that the story of Esther did not take place? How can you prove a negative?
@זכרון דברים
Leave it to a True Believer chareidi half-wit to insult rather than debate.
Sometimes you can prove a negative such as the fable of Queen Esther. You arrive at that conclusion by examining the internal evidence of the Esther tall-tale. I’m not going to articulate all the evidence for the falsity of that myth out of deference for the religious beliefs of the Baal HaBlog.
Just do a Google search on the Historicity of Esther, to educate yourself. Perhaps you might convince me of your evidence to the contrary?
Or inform me of your emails address and I’ll forward mountains of evidence that the fable was a figment of a very talented mind.
Clearly the talmud doesn't hold of that obscure midrash. K'asher avadetei avadetei and all that. In fact, her hetter according to the ba'al tosfos who does not hold bias goy is 'ok', (can't remember offhand whether its ri or rt) esther simply did not have a hetter for the ratzon time. Acharonim struggle with that but none provide a real answer.
It's a Zohar, farshteist? And it's being chodesh Odor, you know.....
@Yakov,
It’s definitely חדש Odor. Unquestionably!
משנכנס אדר מרבין
בשילשול