I am going to reveal something to you as an argument for why you should please keep the machlokes between charedim and the rest of Israel only in Israel and to refrain from importing it in any way to the US. We have enough tzaros here and have our own way of trying to make progress and you are out of touch with it.
At the height of the "Slifkin Affair," I was present with Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky, shlita, when he received a phone call from someone calling on behalf of Rav Elyashiv, asking him to make a statement against your books. Rav Shmuel's response was, I am not going to bring this machlokes to America.
At the time, Rav Shmuel was a leading voice in the US yeshiva world (RAF had only been here for a couple of years, then, at most), and he said, essentially, whatever the nature of this machlokes is over there, here is different. We don't need that here. It's better that you and your books are unopposed than to cause machlokes that is always so tragic for everyone around, as we learn from Korach.
Please. The machlokes there is understandable, as the charedi position is deplorable and the legal system is terrifying them now, though I remain as deeply opposed to your approach to addressing it as ever. But it's different here. We have better ways of working through it. So, so many individuals in the Yeshiva world have their hearts in the right place, unlike charedim in Israel. But the history here and the socio-religious reality here do not allow a productive or relevant conversation about it today that will not leave our whole national community severely damaged. Whatever you think is needed in Israel, it's really, really not needed here.
It's great that you will leave Baltimore out of it, but - like Rav Shmuel did for you - please leave the rest of the country out if it, too.
And I support you 100% and am not ashamed or sorry to say so. We are fighting an existential war and that a certain part of the population refuses from arrogance to contribute to helping their brothers and sisters whilst demanding free money from the Israeli tax payers and government is a Chilul Hashem. It needs to stop!
I wish I understood how you envision this being productive. It is life and death and you're just making meaningful progress less likely. Do you have any historical precedent for your kind of writing making a positive difference in a Jewish context? Because the history books are full of counter examples.
There's no historical precedent for anything with charedim. But it is reasonable to believe that necessity is the mother of hashkafic reinvention. Cut off the money and maybe we'll see change.
"Do you have any historical precedent for your kind of writing making a positive difference in a Jewish context?"
I'll take the bait, since R' Slifkin (probably wisely) deflected.
Shaming and calling out powerful individuals has indeed historically been a fundamental way to effect change. For example, with all the sexual abuse coverups, naming rabbis who enabled the abuse (whether actively, or by passively not doing what they could to end it) was a way of effecting much change. This is something that R' Slifkin himself has written about a number of times.
As other commenters have noted, it's the extremist/fundamentalist R' Feldman himself who publicly involved himself in the issue.
Publicly calling this out is an effective way to push moderate people to recognize what’s happening and choose a stance. It'll pressure him and others like him to limit the effect of their public stance as much as possible.
As Popper famously pointed out in his "paradox of tolerance": if the intolerant minority is tolerated, eventually they take over
I would also add that if this can be done respectfully, as I will describe, it is possible. The majority (or if not, close to it) of yeshivish Jews in America, I think it's fair to say, want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to respect the gedolim implicitly and would jump to their defense but at the same time they are not of the same mind as Israeli charedim, or they are but only because they don't know enough. If somehow the issue came up in the US, there would be a far greater and respectable attempt to reach a fair agreement. Some of these people lean towards respect for gedolim and others towards a greater sense of the klal and what is tov and Yashar.
If you want to be effective, you have to be sensitive to this climate. If you push the wrong button, you will activate the instinct to defend the gedolim and identify with the charedim, and you marginalize the true moderates or even push them to the other side. This is what scares me about everything on this blog and your comments. If you can promote a voice that can win people over without pushing that button, you have all my support in trying to marginalize the extremist view reflected in RAF' letter. That's how things improve in the US. In Israel, it's almost like a video game, where people are pushing each other's buttons right and left. That's the very last thing we need here.
"If you can promote a voice that can win people over without pushing that button, you have all my support in trying to marginalize the extremist view reflected in RAF' letter. That's how things improve in the US."
Nice idea in theory. Who is this voice? If there isn't one, then it's not relevant
It could start with RNS publishing in modern Orthodox publications, or very moderates yeshivish (Rabbi Adlerstein is doing this on Cross-Currents) in a respectful tone targeting that audience, knowing moderate and even some yeshivish also read these and going from there. It's It's like any PR campaign. It takes time, it depends on others following up with their own writing and overall a voice begins to be heard that is too loud to ignore. But it works because the arguments are defined by caring, integrity and Torah sources that all can comfortably nod when they read them. A frontal assault, even from a strategic point of view, is just - if you'll excuse me - a dumb idea.
If RNS wanted more than blog fodder, and he believes changing minds in the US is important, he'd put together a PR team with this kind of mandate.
That's a fair example and I appreciate the constructive manner in which you presented it. But I don't think it applies here because in the case of sexual abuse, you're dealing with an ultimately winnable fight. Once the public knows what's going on, they're going to agree, because the Torah is clear about that. R pressure will work. Lashon hara is absolutely mandated because there's no greater example of l'toeles. And it worked and there is relatively little machlokes about these issues when they come up (though there's still room for improvement). Here, there's a zero percent chance of overall good. You'll accomplish something but at a potentially catastrophic cost of tearing apart the community. It's a guaranteed losing battle that's not l'toeles by any stretch of the imagination.
But if you can follow that model somehow, and limit your calls for change to "vulnerable target areas" where positive change can take hold, I would definitely support it.
"tear apart the community". That can also be teitched up simply as, "Don't bring up uncomfortable realities" The last I checked, machlokes l'shem shamayim is a value in our tradition.
With all due respect, last time I checked, machlokes l'shem shamayim is identified as those like Beis Shamai and Beis Hillel, described by האמת ושלום אהבו, that they had and showed the greatest respect for each other. "Us against you" is the classic Korach vadaso, who simply denounce the other side instead of working together on behalf of truth and peace
I strongly disagree with what you say. If anything American Jewry needs to be informed about this and needs to know who to make their donations to. If anything, I’m into naming and shaming the rabbis who come here collecting money for their yeshivot in Israel who contribute absolutely nothing to Israel. They are happy to sneer at secular and Dati Jews and some chardeim that helped with the war effort whilst acting the victims. Their sense of entitlement and arrogance is gobsmacking. American Jews are completely naive about the situation in Israel and need to be informed so they can make the right choices. Don’t serve in IDF, do National Service or even work? No more free loading off of the tax payers. Not to even prayer for our brave men and women of the IDF is a Chilul Hashem. Rabbi Slifkin is right, silence is complicity. This is now personal for me, both of my friends have sons in the army, one is in the Givati and his unit was just sent to North Lebanon. Stop making pathetic excuses for their vile behaviour, enough is enough. The receipts are now due.
The good news is we don't disagree as much as you think. The bad news is I do have a major problem with your attitude, which, with all due respect, just comes across as "I'm angry and I just want to cause destruction everywhere." I don't know if you're Torah observant but there is zero question that "naming and shaming" as you describe is classic lashon hara and considered among the most vile behaviors in the Torah.
Here's where we don't disagree, based on what you wrote: I was not referring at all to the question of whether Americans should support yeshivas that have values they oppose, or even whether there is some way to properly make information available for potential donors to have this information.
My point was directed specifically at outsiders fomenting unnecessary machlokes within the US, pitting some against others about what Israelis should it should not do. Those on both general sides of this issue here tend to have very different kinds of positions and attitudes than those on the different sides there. Someone who cares about the Jewish people will certainly want to be sensitive to this.
I am angry, and that is my right to be given the situation. And yes, I am a Torah Observant Jew. There is nothing wrong with naming and shaming when the truth and facts are involved. To remain silent is not an option. These gedolim have no problem disparaging other Jews, they engage in ‘lashon hara’ all the time but I guess this is alright because they’re important ‘holy’ people. Smacks of hypocrisy to me. I am not going to debate what is and what is not lashon hara, but legitimate criticism for despicable, hypocritical behaviour is not lashon hara. People have a right to know who and what their donations are funding and naive American Jews should be made aware of the issue.
Just for the record, I called their position "deplorable" in my post and their lashon hara is no more justifiable than anyone else's. In fact, it is worse because their platform is greater and the chillul H' is greater. But if you admit you are angry, you should keep in mind the Chazal that בא לכלל כעס בא לכלל טעות. I am disgusted with so much about the charedi approach and would support anything to improve the situation but anger, even when is understandable, is always destructive.
And btw, I have too many nephews and nieces in the army or recently out to count, one suffering from PTSD who was among the first responder on 10/7 and involved in catching cars carrying off hostages. I share your feelings. But situations like this are improved by people rising above them, and only worsened by infighting.
again, you are invalidating someone's feelings because of some concern of ephemeral achdus. Historically, machloksim lshem shamayim have been a part of Judaism. The machlokes l'shem shamayim is already in the air. You should not be in the business of shutting people down.
I'm sorry, but you obviously didn't read what I wrote in my other comments if you think I'm sitting anyone down. I'm warning against pitting people against each other when nothing good can come if it. I encouraged a path of machlokes l'shem shamayim that is respectful and b'chochma and can maintain shalom while advocating 100% for what you believe is right. There are people who do it well and it always works better. It's just less satisfying because it requires patience and lacks revenge.
Rabbi Feldman himself is the one who "brought the machlokes " to America.
Jewish life in Eretz Yisrael is in danger. How are the Jews of ch"ul not involved?
Ever heard of
כל ישראל ערבים זה לזה?
Jewish sovereignty in Israel protects every single Jew in the world. Without the IDF, Americans wouldn't be able to visit Israel nor send their children to learn in Israel.
It's the biggest chutzpah in the world that yeshiva boys come to learn in Israel, take tiyulim all across the country, visit מקומות הקדושים, and don't say a single tefila for the IDF soldiers protecting them.
Their parents sit at home in America, knowing that the IDF soldiers are protecting their children, yet continue to throw money at yeshivot who spit in the faces of the IDF.
I agree with every word you wrote. I don't accept the implication, though, which is that taking the bait and fanning the flames is productive. *Something* must be done, but demanding that faculty at Rabbi Feldman's yeshiva or other prominent people should speak out against him, as RNS suggested, will only erupt into further problems.
In Israel, harsh and fierce, and a lack of mutual respect and dignity, is the norm in communal debates. It is not a stretch to say October 7 could happen in some part due to the weakening of the fabric of society due to the ferocious arguments that were going on.
In the US, enormous effort has been invested in maintaining shalom and it is our community's greatest strength.
All I'm asking for is to respect that and treasure it while respectfully and powerfully and compellingly and continuously and most of all effectively advocating for what you and I believe is right.
I as well applaud backing off from associating Baltimore and Ner Yisroel with R' Feldman's vile letter and also understand how it would be institutional suicide for Ner Yisroel to denounce him and thereby earn the wrath of the Lakewood Machine.
The very goal of the Feldman letter is to bring the machlokes to America and publicly strongarm the rest of the American Mo'etzes, to forestall accommodation of relative moderates, be they pragmatic ba'alei battim or relatively moderate rabbonim.
So, as regards to DG's Rav Shmuel advice, hasn't that horse already left the barn, leaving the moderates with nowhere to go other than open warfare, which as DG said about Rav Shmuel, is not the moderates' style?
Looks to me like a replay of the Washington March playbook, where the extremists forced a lettter not to go and the moderates quietly went along, lest it look like there was a split in the Agudah.
Thank you for your apology. I believe it is sincere and I respect you for that.
I will make one brief point and then tell you, in a separate comment, something of very great significance to you personally - that may have had enormous consequences - that I witnessed first hand and that you likely do not know about.
You know very well that if anyone in Ner Yisrael would say one word against the Rosh Yeshiva, the whole foundation of the entire world view of the institution would crumble and they'd probably never recover. And it would only bring out the extremists who support him and force those who oppose him underground for fear of getting attacked. So that's pretty much a non starter. There's a reason no one in the Yeshiva world speaks out about these things and it's partially because it's too often counter productive and partially because they don't want the responsibility of having to then speak out every single time something happens that requires some comment. This has been their way for decades.
It would be interesting that as you go around the USA to speak, ask each kehilla if their shuls say the prayer for chayalim? How many say the prayer for the medina? Just curious.
The American religiousman is occupied with his own affairs. He has no plans to immigrate to Israel in the near future.Hence Israeli matters are marginal in his daily concerns. It's not as if he has any immediate concerns about Israel.If his goal. was to immigrate to Israel he would be concerned.
I am going to reveal something to you as an argument for why you should please keep the machlokes between charedim and the rest of Israel only in Israel and to refrain from importing it in any way to the US. We have enough tzaros here and have our own way of trying to make progress and you are out of touch with it.
At the height of the "Slifkin Affair," I was present with Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky, shlita, when he received a phone call from someone calling on behalf of Rav Elyashiv, asking him to make a statement against your books. Rav Shmuel's response was, I am not going to bring this machlokes to America.
At the time, Rav Shmuel was a leading voice in the US yeshiva world (RAF had only been here for a couple of years, then, at most), and he said, essentially, whatever the nature of this machlokes is over there, here is different. We don't need that here. It's better that you and your books are unopposed than to cause machlokes that is always so tragic for everyone around, as we learn from Korach.
Please. The machlokes there is understandable, as the charedi position is deplorable and the legal system is terrifying them now, though I remain as deeply opposed to your approach to addressing it as ever. But it's different here. We have better ways of working through it. So, so many individuals in the Yeshiva world have their hearts in the right place, unlike charedim in Israel. But the history here and the socio-religious reality here do not allow a productive or relevant conversation about it today that will not leave our whole national community severely damaged. Whatever you think is needed in Israel, it's really, really not needed here.
It's great that you will leave Baltimore out of it, but - like Rav Shmuel did for you - please leave the rest of the country out if it, too.
Well, it's a matter of life and death for us in Israel, and the actions of American Jewry affect us, so I'm going to keep writing about it.
And I support you 100% and am not ashamed or sorry to say so. We are fighting an existential war and that a certain part of the population refuses from arrogance to contribute to helping their brothers and sisters whilst demanding free money from the Israeli tax payers and government is a Chilul Hashem. It needs to stop!
I wish I understood how you envision this being productive. It is life and death and you're just making meaningful progress less likely. Do you have any historical precedent for your kind of writing making a positive difference in a Jewish context? Because the history books are full of counter examples.
There's no historical precedent for anything with charedim. But it is reasonable to believe that necessity is the mother of hashkafic reinvention. Cut off the money and maybe we'll see change.
"Do you have any historical precedent for your kind of writing making a positive difference in a Jewish context?"
I'll take the bait, since R' Slifkin (probably wisely) deflected.
Shaming and calling out powerful individuals has indeed historically been a fundamental way to effect change. For example, with all the sexual abuse coverups, naming rabbis who enabled the abuse (whether actively, or by passively not doing what they could to end it) was a way of effecting much change. This is something that R' Slifkin himself has written about a number of times.
As other commenters have noted, it's the extremist/fundamentalist R' Feldman himself who publicly involved himself in the issue.
Publicly calling this out is an effective way to push moderate people to recognize what’s happening and choose a stance. It'll pressure him and others like him to limit the effect of their public stance as much as possible.
As Popper famously pointed out in his "paradox of tolerance": if the intolerant minority is tolerated, eventually they take over
I would also add that if this can be done respectfully, as I will describe, it is possible. The majority (or if not, close to it) of yeshivish Jews in America, I think it's fair to say, want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to respect the gedolim implicitly and would jump to their defense but at the same time they are not of the same mind as Israeli charedim, or they are but only because they don't know enough. If somehow the issue came up in the US, there would be a far greater and respectable attempt to reach a fair agreement. Some of these people lean towards respect for gedolim and others towards a greater sense of the klal and what is tov and Yashar.
If you want to be effective, you have to be sensitive to this climate. If you push the wrong button, you will activate the instinct to defend the gedolim and identify with the charedim, and you marginalize the true moderates or even push them to the other side. This is what scares me about everything on this blog and your comments. If you can promote a voice that can win people over without pushing that button, you have all my support in trying to marginalize the extremist view reflected in RAF' letter. That's how things improve in the US. In Israel, it's almost like a video game, where people are pushing each other's buttons right and left. That's the very last thing we need here.
Do you hear my point?
"If you can promote a voice that can win people over without pushing that button, you have all my support in trying to marginalize the extremist view reflected in RAF' letter. That's how things improve in the US."
Nice idea in theory. Who is this voice? If there isn't one, then it's not relevant
It could start with RNS publishing in modern Orthodox publications, or very moderates yeshivish (Rabbi Adlerstein is doing this on Cross-Currents) in a respectful tone targeting that audience, knowing moderate and even some yeshivish also read these and going from there. It's It's like any PR campaign. It takes time, it depends on others following up with their own writing and overall a voice begins to be heard that is too loud to ignore. But it works because the arguments are defined by caring, integrity and Torah sources that all can comfortably nod when they read them. A frontal assault, even from a strategic point of view, is just - if you'll excuse me - a dumb idea.
If RNS wanted more than blog fodder, and he believes changing minds in the US is important, he'd put together a PR team with this kind of mandate.
That's a fair example and I appreciate the constructive manner in which you presented it. But I don't think it applies here because in the case of sexual abuse, you're dealing with an ultimately winnable fight. Once the public knows what's going on, they're going to agree, because the Torah is clear about that. R pressure will work. Lashon hara is absolutely mandated because there's no greater example of l'toeles. And it worked and there is relatively little machlokes about these issues when they come up (though there's still room for improvement). Here, there's a zero percent chance of overall good. You'll accomplish something but at a potentially catastrophic cost of tearing apart the community. It's a guaranteed losing battle that's not l'toeles by any stretch of the imagination.
But if you can follow that model somehow, and limit your calls for change to "vulnerable target areas" where positive change can take hold, I would definitely support it.
"tear apart the community". That can also be teitched up simply as, "Don't bring up uncomfortable realities" The last I checked, machlokes l'shem shamayim is a value in our tradition.
With all due respect, last time I checked, machlokes l'shem shamayim is identified as those like Beis Shamai and Beis Hillel, described by האמת ושלום אהבו, that they had and showed the greatest respect for each other. "Us against you" is the classic Korach vadaso, who simply denounce the other side instead of working together on behalf of truth and peace
I strongly disagree with what you say. If anything American Jewry needs to be informed about this and needs to know who to make their donations to. If anything, I’m into naming and shaming the rabbis who come here collecting money for their yeshivot in Israel who contribute absolutely nothing to Israel. They are happy to sneer at secular and Dati Jews and some chardeim that helped with the war effort whilst acting the victims. Their sense of entitlement and arrogance is gobsmacking. American Jews are completely naive about the situation in Israel and need to be informed so they can make the right choices. Don’t serve in IDF, do National Service or even work? No more free loading off of the tax payers. Not to even prayer for our brave men and women of the IDF is a Chilul Hashem. Rabbi Slifkin is right, silence is complicity. This is now personal for me, both of my friends have sons in the army, one is in the Givati and his unit was just sent to North Lebanon. Stop making pathetic excuses for their vile behaviour, enough is enough. The receipts are now due.
The good news is we don't disagree as much as you think. The bad news is I do have a major problem with your attitude, which, with all due respect, just comes across as "I'm angry and I just want to cause destruction everywhere." I don't know if you're Torah observant but there is zero question that "naming and shaming" as you describe is classic lashon hara and considered among the most vile behaviors in the Torah.
Here's where we don't disagree, based on what you wrote: I was not referring at all to the question of whether Americans should support yeshivas that have values they oppose, or even whether there is some way to properly make information available for potential donors to have this information.
My point was directed specifically at outsiders fomenting unnecessary machlokes within the US, pitting some against others about what Israelis should it should not do. Those on both general sides of this issue here tend to have very different kinds of positions and attitudes than those on the different sides there. Someone who cares about the Jewish people will certainly want to be sensitive to this.
I am angry, and that is my right to be given the situation. And yes, I am a Torah Observant Jew. There is nothing wrong with naming and shaming when the truth and facts are involved. To remain silent is not an option. These gedolim have no problem disparaging other Jews, they engage in ‘lashon hara’ all the time but I guess this is alright because they’re important ‘holy’ people. Smacks of hypocrisy to me. I am not going to debate what is and what is not lashon hara, but legitimate criticism for despicable, hypocritical behaviour is not lashon hara. People have a right to know who and what their donations are funding and naive American Jews should be made aware of the issue.
Just for the record, I called their position "deplorable" in my post and their lashon hara is no more justifiable than anyone else's. In fact, it is worse because their platform is greater and the chillul H' is greater. But if you admit you are angry, you should keep in mind the Chazal that בא לכלל כעס בא לכלל טעות. I am disgusted with so much about the charedi approach and would support anything to improve the situation but anger, even when is understandable, is always destructive.
And btw, I have too many nephews and nieces in the army or recently out to count, one suffering from PTSD who was among the first responder on 10/7 and involved in catching cars carrying off hostages. I share your feelings. But situations like this are improved by people rising above them, and only worsened by infighting.
again, you are invalidating someone's feelings because of some concern of ephemeral achdus. Historically, machloksim lshem shamayim have been a part of Judaism. The machlokes l'shem shamayim is already in the air. You should not be in the business of shutting people down.
I'm sorry, but you obviously didn't read what I wrote in my other comments if you think I'm sitting anyone down. I'm warning against pitting people against each other when nothing good can come if it. I encouraged a path of machlokes l'shem shamayim that is respectful and b'chochma and can maintain shalom while advocating 100% for what you believe is right. There are people who do it well and it always works better. It's just less satisfying because it requires patience and lacks revenge.
Rabbi Feldman himself is the one who "brought the machlokes " to America.
Jewish life in Eretz Yisrael is in danger. How are the Jews of ch"ul not involved?
Ever heard of
כל ישראל ערבים זה לזה?
Jewish sovereignty in Israel protects every single Jew in the world. Without the IDF, Americans wouldn't be able to visit Israel nor send their children to learn in Israel.
It's the biggest chutzpah in the world that yeshiva boys come to learn in Israel, take tiyulim all across the country, visit מקומות הקדושים, and don't say a single tefila for the IDF soldiers protecting them.
Their parents sit at home in America, knowing that the IDF soldiers are protecting their children, yet continue to throw money at yeshivot who spit in the faces of the IDF.
I agree with every word you wrote. I don't accept the implication, though, which is that taking the bait and fanning the flames is productive. *Something* must be done, but demanding that faculty at Rabbi Feldman's yeshiva or other prominent people should speak out against him, as RNS suggested, will only erupt into further problems.
In Israel, harsh and fierce, and a lack of mutual respect and dignity, is the norm in communal debates. It is not a stretch to say October 7 could happen in some part due to the weakening of the fabric of society due to the ferocious arguments that were going on.
In the US, enormous effort has been invested in maintaining shalom and it is our community's greatest strength.
All I'm asking for is to respect that and treasure it while respectfully and powerfully and compellingly and continuously and most of all effectively advocating for what you and I believe is right.
I as well applaud backing off from associating Baltimore and Ner Yisroel with R' Feldman's vile letter and also understand how it would be institutional suicide for Ner Yisroel to denounce him and thereby earn the wrath of the Lakewood Machine.
The very goal of the Feldman letter is to bring the machlokes to America and publicly strongarm the rest of the American Mo'etzes, to forestall accommodation of relative moderates, be they pragmatic ba'alei battim or relatively moderate rabbonim.
So, as regards to DG's Rav Shmuel advice, hasn't that horse already left the barn, leaving the moderates with nowhere to go other than open warfare, which as DG said about Rav Shmuel, is not the moderates' style?
Looks to me like a replay of the Washington March playbook, where the extremists forced a lettter not to go and the moderates quietly went along, lest it look like there was a split in the Agudah.
Score another for the extremist team.
Thank you for your apology. I believe it is sincere and I respect you for that.
I will make one brief point and then tell you, in a separate comment, something of very great significance to you personally - that may have had enormous consequences - that I witnessed first hand and that you likely do not know about.
You know very well that if anyone in Ner Yisrael would say one word against the Rosh Yeshiva, the whole foundation of the entire world view of the institution would crumble and they'd probably never recover. And it would only bring out the extremists who support him and force those who oppose him underground for fear of getting attacked. So that's pretty much a non starter. There's a reason no one in the Yeshiva world speaks out about these things and it's partially because it's too often counter productive and partially because they don't want the responsibility of having to then speak out every single time something happens that requires some comment. This has been their way for decades.
It would be interesting that as you go around the USA to speak, ask each kehilla if their shuls say the prayer for chayalim? How many say the prayer for the medina? Just curious.
The American religiousman is occupied with his own affairs. He has no plans to immigrate to Israel in the near future.Hence Israeli matters are marginal in his daily concerns. It's not as if he has any immediate concerns about Israel.If his goal. was to immigrate to Israel he would be concerned.