I'm going to say again that Jews (anyone, really, but that's another story) protesting against Israel outside Israel is just wrong, period. For any reason. So obviously for such a wrong cause as this, but before anyone jumps on me, I'm on the record that the lefties who were protesting judicial reform outside of Israel last year were also very, very wrong. And if you accuse me of bias, I can assure you that, even as a crazy right winger, I was very much opposed to all the anti-Oslo protests that went on the US as well back in the day. There's a time and place for everything, and protesting Israel by people who don't even live there is, again, just wrong, and during a war and at a time it's being attacked by others, even more so..
This should be obvious, but apparently it isn't to everyone.
(I also don't approve of protests *inside* Israel, but for entirely different reasons: In a democracy, policy should not be determined by mobs. Not to mention all the inconvenience it causes, but of course the Attorney General בכבודה והעצמה declared that protests *have* to inconvenience people. Madness.)
I agree with you somewhat, but you are still not calling it for what it is. It's more than that now, because there are Hamas flags flying in NY. I doubt any of the Rabbi's that endorsed this thing are even aware of that. One can argue it's OK to protest Israel outside the country, but not at a time like this. And drawing proof from some other story 50 years ago proves nothing. But while shaul is doing it one way, I'll provide an opposing one. The late Satmar Rav planned a protest on Israel day, and later found out that the PLO supporters were planning one nearby, so he canceled the whole thing all together.
It will be the Biggest חילול השם ברבים and anyone who knows what's going on and has a brain will understand that. The supporters of this are missing one or the other. Aguda too is not on this thing, and it's obvious why. Though I'm upset they don't call it out, but I'm used to that by now. They are too internally conflicted. So the loud minority of the extreme right have made a cue and taken over.
"I'm going to say again that Jews (anyone, really, but that's another story) protesting against Israel outside Israel is just wrong, period. For any reason."
What about demonstrations outside of Israel in support of Israel? I've been to more than a few. On what principle is it wrong to publicly protest Israel but right to publicly celebrate Israel? If you want to say that outsiders should just mind their own business, fine, but be consistent.
Because of the message it sends. These protests are always (mis-)interpreted to be anti-Israel in general, as opposed to be understood as being pro-Israel but opposed to a particular policy.
" If you want to say that outsiders should just mind their own business..."
That is what I took to be his implied principle. Otherwise, I would like to hear what principle allows praise but not criticism. Anything can be interpreted any which way, that is not a principle.
" Anything can be interpreted any which way, that is not a principle."
The basic principle in public relations is that interpretation does matter. These protests are not solipsistic displays directed inward towards the people protesting. They are meant for public consumption; they are meant to project a message to those outside the community and perhaps even motivate to action. If there's a risk that the message will be distorted and taken as anti-Israel in general, then the protest is wrong- in principle.
Does it? Is there not such a thing as constructive criticism? Nachum seems to be saying that people living outside of Israel need to keep their mouths shut. But only if they are saying things he doesn't like.
If I tell everybody else about some fault of so-and-so, as opposed to telling him in quiet, that's not constructive criticism. In fact, people would very well conclude that I have a personal vendetta against so-and-so.
There's a difference between supporting Israel [which is important, because we are so outnumbered by those supporting Hamas et al], and protesting against [what should be] an internal issue.
I was surprised when the Litvak Rosh Yeshiva's signed on to this.
Last time when they tried this, marching step in step with the Satmars , NK, Some of their biggest donors (especially the big one here in Monsey) called and threatened to cut down on donations. The Rosh Yeshivas folded immediately.
I was wondering why this was different? I think they thought it is for the "Honor of Torah" and it is okay. I guess these supporters were not on board.
Also, remember they just recently came with their hands outstretched, going door to door. They went to Sefardim, Regular frum Yidden, Many Shomer Torah's that don't dress like them, who donated nicely, but don't particular care for this public attack on Israel. The Litvaks most have had a real awaking and change of mind , not willing to lose this valuable asset. Remember - they will have to show up here again doing some more shnorring. The money raised wont last too long.
Smart move on their part - Money seems to talk!!
To counter the disappointment in the Charedi community, that this is cancelled, they should make it some kind of "Honor of Torah" event or maybe a pre- Yom Tov public Tishuvah Idea. I am sure they can find a good slogan and rebrand it - bring in heavy singers and everyone can still have a blast!
I get it's satire, but Satmar is against the draft because its a Zionist army, no matter if it was 100% frum, and nothing to do with Torah protecting. The RYs on this one are mainly influenced by brisk as well.
I'm going to say again that Jews (anyone, really, but that's another story) protesting against Israel outside Israel is just wrong, period. For any reason. So obviously for such a wrong cause as this, but before anyone jumps on me, I'm on the record that the lefties who were protesting judicial reform outside of Israel last year were also very, very wrong. And if you accuse me of bias, I can assure you that, even as a crazy right winger, I was very much opposed to all the anti-Oslo protests that went on the US as well back in the day. There's a time and place for everything, and protesting Israel by people who don't even live there is, again, just wrong, and during a war and at a time it's being attacked by others, even more so..
This should be obvious, but apparently it isn't to everyone.
(I also don't approve of protests *inside* Israel, but for entirely different reasons: In a democracy, policy should not be determined by mobs. Not to mention all the inconvenience it causes, but of course the Attorney General בכבודה והעצמה declared that protests *have* to inconvenience people. Madness.)
I agree with you somewhat, but you are still not calling it for what it is. It's more than that now, because there are Hamas flags flying in NY. I doubt any of the Rabbi's that endorsed this thing are even aware of that. One can argue it's OK to protest Israel outside the country, but not at a time like this. And drawing proof from some other story 50 years ago proves nothing. But while shaul is doing it one way, I'll provide an opposing one. The late Satmar Rav planned a protest on Israel day, and later found out that the PLO supporters were planning one nearby, so he canceled the whole thing all together.
It will be the Biggest חילול השם ברבים and anyone who knows what's going on and has a brain will understand that. The supporters of this are missing one or the other. Aguda too is not on this thing, and it's obvious why. Though I'm upset they don't call it out, but I'm used to that by now. They are too internally conflicted. So the loud minority of the extreme right have made a cue and taken over.
"I'm going to say again that Jews (anyone, really, but that's another story) protesting against Israel outside Israel is just wrong, period. For any reason."
Anything else? I just want to make sure I have my marching orders down pat. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/and-what-about-american-jews/comment/67464154
Sorry you don't rate in the grand sweep of things.
What's in the link?
He's given up on searching for mine and is now just linking to himself.
Special, limited time offer, on a brand new pair of walkie-talkies. 20% off with code 'NASRALLAH.' Batteries included.
What about demonstrations outside of Israel in support of Israel? I've been to more than a few. On what principle is it wrong to publicly protest Israel but right to publicly celebrate Israel? If you want to say that outsiders should just mind their own business, fine, but be consistent.
Because of the message it sends. These protests are always (mis-)interpreted to be anti-Israel in general, as opposed to be understood as being pro-Israel but opposed to a particular policy.
" If you want to say that outsiders should just mind their own business..."
Where did he say that? Straw man.
That is what I took to be his implied principle. Otherwise, I would like to hear what principle allows praise but not criticism. Anything can be interpreted any which way, that is not a principle.
" Anything can be interpreted any which way, that is not a principle."
The basic principle in public relations is that interpretation does matter. These protests are not solipsistic displays directed inward towards the people protesting. They are meant for public consumption; they are meant to project a message to those outside the community and perhaps even motivate to action. If there's a risk that the message will be distorted and taken as anti-Israel in general, then the protest is wrong- in principle.
Praise helps Israel (or at worst is neutral).. protests highlighting internal issues weaken us
Shabbat Shalom
Does it? Is there not such a thing as constructive criticism? Nachum seems to be saying that people living outside of Israel need to keep their mouths shut. But only if they are saying things he doesn't like.
Did you read what I wrote? I explicitly included those saying things I *do* like. If you missed that I can't help you.
(And in Israel too.)
"constructive criticism"
If I tell everybody else about some fault of so-and-so, as opposed to telling him in quiet, that's not constructive criticism. In fact, people would very well conclude that I have a personal vendetta against so-and-so.
Do I really have to spell it out? One is attacking Jews; the other one is supporting them.
There's a difference between supporting Israel [which is important, because we are so outnumbered by those supporting Hamas et al], and protesting against [what should be] an internal issue.
Wishing you a refuah sheleimah and a good year
"...but it’s not strong enough to overcome the state of New Jersey"
Now that is a funny comment!
I was surprised when the Litvak Rosh Yeshiva's signed on to this.
Last time when they tried this, marching step in step with the Satmars , NK, Some of their biggest donors (especially the big one here in Monsey) called and threatened to cut down on donations. The Rosh Yeshivas folded immediately.
I was wondering why this was different? I think they thought it is for the "Honor of Torah" and it is okay. I guess these supporters were not on board.
Also, remember they just recently came with their hands outstretched, going door to door. They went to Sefardim, Regular frum Yidden, Many Shomer Torah's that don't dress like them, who donated nicely, but don't particular care for this public attack on Israel. The Litvaks most have had a real awaking and change of mind , not willing to lose this valuable asset. Remember - they will have to show up here again doing some more shnorring. The money raised wont last too long.
Smart move on their part - Money seems to talk!!
To counter the disappointment in the Charedi community, that this is cancelled, they should make it some kind of "Honor of Torah" event or maybe a pre- Yom Tov public Tishuvah Idea. I am sure they can find a good slogan and rebrand it - bring in heavy singers and everyone can still have a blast!
Have a Good Shabbos.
That philanthropist who threatened last time already cut back for other reasons about 5 years ago, so that didn't work this time.
I get it's satire, but Satmar is against the draft because its a Zionist army, no matter if it was 100% frum, and nothing to do with Torah protecting. The RYs on this one are mainly influenced by brisk as well.
Will they see this the yad Hashem? Just wondering.
Not to boast but I really think my thoughts and prayers had something to do with the cancellation. Torah vs Torah