Hi Slifkin. When we call you a kofer, it's not just a slogan or catchphrase the way you bandy about the kabbalistic phrase "Nahama d'kisufa". It's real and important. Throughout your writings, you are kofer in many fundamentals of Judaism such as prayer, hashgacha klalis, hashgacha pratis, schar v'onesh, miracles, the truth of the Torah. And this informs your entire worldview, which has nothing to do with rationalism, or the Rambam, or Zionism, or Dati Leumi, but is exclusively your rejection of Judaism. Period.
This discredits all your opinions on the matter. Your opinions on chareidim serving, or anything else pertaining to chareidim, or to Dati leumi, or to Judaism, are no more relevant than the pope's.
The Dati Leumi poskim who hold that there is an obligation for yeshiva students to serve are not coming from the same worldview as you, so we don't call them kofrim. We simply disagree with them. We hold that Torah study is an overriding *communal* responsibility, especially in today's secularist environment, that people like you are responsible for. That doesn't mean we can't be grateful for the soldiers that serve. We just realize that Torah is even more important, which is classical Judaism.
Hey what about my beliefs that the universe is billions of years old and that Chazal were sometimes mistaken about the natural world? How come you left those out?
No they're not, as anyone with slightly more depth than a London puddle can tell you. It does lead people towards Kefirah which is why Dc Koifers books were banned. And yes, the dcs other views if not outright heretical are at the very least uncomfortably close to being as such. HHH comment was [sadly] spot on.
He is a kal da'as, he doesn't think much about his opinions, he doesn't treat his opinions seriously, he doesn't research his facts, he doesn't care for 'right and wrong'. That's why airy snarky remarks are enough for him, that's why he can never quote a primary source, and that's why he never manages to understand those who disagree with him.
Because there's no way to know the age of the universe, if you don't know how it started. All scientists can say is, that assuming everything always was the same as it is today (i.e. all laws of physics etc.), then the universe is x years old. Now they assume everything was the same since the beginning, because why would they assume otherwise.
Now you can argue that they are indeed idiots, because since they admittedly have no idea how it all started, they have no right to make assumptions.
Or you can say that מעשה בראשית is a mystery,as many well respected Rabbonim say, and you don't have to weasel many answers to many questions. Fossil history, different levels of development of ancient societies, and different subhuman development of brain and body structure. etc.. I would keep the subject open to personal choice and not scream koifer.
Do you have any evidence there were changes? Evidentaly not. Maybe Superman is responsible?! Ridiculous. Anyway R. Kook he indicated that if scientific evidence appears to contradict the literal account of the Creation one can reinterpret it.This means that you are not necessarily bound by literal interpretation of the Creation account. Also R.SF Hirsch and others.What makes you so sure it has to be a literal the interpretation.
No ash. There are people far more qualified academically than the dc, who have answered the q more than adequality. But as Slifkin is wont to do, he ignores all those who have offered up satisfactory solutions. because he doesn't even have time to read the defences people offer on his blog, lol.
Ash, people like this have nothing of substance to offer. They haven't written books or articles to refer you to, they won't even give arguments in their comments.
For example, he thinks that since he once said something that is subject to a dispute whether if it is kefirah or not (in Challenge of the creation he writes some pretty damning unequivocal kefirah, though), that gives him unlimited license to say whatever he wants on any subject without worrying if it is kefirah. That is an example of stupidity.
Equally stupid is thinking that if Rebbi said the chachmei haumos are right, that gives Slifkin a license to argue with Chazal whenever he wants. Not even kefirah. Just stupidity.
You may be right, Hashkafic halfway house (what is that a reference to?), but I don't think this type of pointing out will get you anywhere. Rabbi Slifkin doesn't think he is a heretic and neither do his followers. What you can do is point out where they are wrong. And you may see that it's not as clear. You still may be correct in your approach. I think Haredim are closer to the truth. But I think the other side has some good points and we can all learn by coming together.
For example, you may be correct that God is running the world, but we still do our Hishtadlut. It may be true that we only do that when it isn't at the expense of our Avodah, and that this world looks dark to test us and we should be having more trust in God, but where to draw that line is difficult. It depends on the person and the situation and the time and the factors.
Also, although the Torah is the most important thing, not everyone can or even should be studying all day. There are twelve Shebatim with different roles. So the Haredi perspective is a good way to be Shebet Levi or Issachar, but all those who need to work and live more in this world for all kinds of circumstances in their lives, they need to live in the world in a more practical way. What about someone who is taken by science. Haredim's answers aren't always practical, even if they are correct. We need to be able to engage with all types. All this kind of comment does is distance people.
Yo my man Shemesh, I agree with most of your comment. We can't have kollel for all, all the time, and there is much to improve in chareidi society. Criticism is important. But not from people who reject our core values.
The reason for my comment is because it is important to point out that Slifkin doesn't represent anything about Judaism. This won't help for his diehard supporters, but it will help people on the fence who are considering taking him seriously.
Hashkafic halfway house is a reference to when I began commenting, it was on a post that reported somebody who felt "hashkafically homeless".
You are full of it. I didn't see anything wrong with RNS's views though I might not agree with all of them. They are within the 13 Principles of Faith of the Rambam. You have your fixed ideas that your trusted Rebbi told you and therefore anyone who differs is a kofer.First of all it is a terrible sin to call a person a kofer.You may point out that a particular idea is not acceptable.
We don't need to relitigate this every post. He is a kofer in those things I mentioned in many, many of his articles. Therefore, his views on Judaism are no better than the Pope's. Actually, probably worse.
Brilliant article. And believe it or not, its even more articulate than the docs trash. Seems like there are Charadim out there who actually have an education. Gosh
I actually don't know why this got so many likes. Most of my comments aren't so popular. It's definitely possible there are one or more people with multiple accounts, but even so, why this comment?
It got so many likes, because people appreciated you called out his Kefirah where it applies and didnt fall for the docs silly baiting about heretical-ising his views about the age of the universe. Its comments like yours that make the dc look foolish, as all begin to realize how low he has fallen just to get back at those that he feels slighted him
Dear sweet God, this is a disgusting post. To target an ordained Rabbi, whose education and ordination was well within the bounds of the Orthodox community and the mesorah and spew trolltastic garbage at him no matter what he posts is eirev rav-level.
Who cares if he was "ordained"? He went off the derech and is now a kofer and a שונא תורה. He is a troll himself who has dedicated his life to promoting hatred of the chareidi community. Our comments are not even one hundredth of what he deserves. We are actually too nice to him.
"It's important to show readers that Slifkin does not represent Judaism in any way, shape, or form."
How many readers have you convinced of that? You might be more effective if you can present links to detailed arguments. Plus, if you use your real name. People don't take anonymous trolls too seriously.
I think I have convinced lots of people. Maybe not your diehard supporters, but people on the fence.
Everybody here already knows about Irrationalist Modoxism. They have tons of evidence. Not that much evidence is needed. Every time you mockingly ask "Isn't parnassah from Hashem?", or try to argue that tehillim doesn't kill terrorists, you are announcing it loudly and clearly.
The difference is that I can easily demonstrate how Slifkin's ideology differs completely from Judaism. Whereas you cannot do the same for me. Unless, as I suspect, your Judaism is nothing more than a collection of slogans and catchphrases that suit you, and so the people who represent Judaism are the ones who you happen to like.
I love your summary of the difference between the Haredi and DL outlook as "Personal Responsibility" vs "Communal Responsibility", and we see it in almost every aspect of Halacha, not just the Mitzva of serving in the Army.
For example, the question of how to approach Shmitta, the Haredi community ask "How can I get produce that conforms to all the requirements of Shmitta", the DL community as "How can we run a society and build an economy based on the requirements of Shmitta".
Similarly the question of moving graves, work on public infrastructure on Shabbat, providing an education for our children, setting up a kashrut system, determining how marriage, burials, or conversions should be handled, the DL community doesn't ask "What is best for me and my personal needs", rather "How can we approach this issue in a way that respects Halacha but is also for the benefit of society as a whole"
I think that you are confusing Sefardim with Ashkenazim. The Sefardim never dealt with reform in their midst and never espoused either the separatism nor the anti-zionism of the separatist Ashkenazim. Rav Ovadia Yosef always had the approach of dealing with all the people whether observant or not and always thought the State was important, supported (and performed) the heter Mechirah, etc. I know less about R Yitzchak Yosef other than to know that yes, he seems to have picked up the Ashkenazi style of insulting the non-religious in public, but he still comes from a Zionist tradition.
Not sure how this is relevant. Natan made the claim that only the RZ care enough about other's mitzvah observance and gave Lag B'omer as an example. I pointed out that this Lag B'omer thing was R' Yitzchak Yosef's idea, who is in no way considered to be RZ.
Insulting secularists is not a Ashkenazi invention. If anything, although the Ashkenazi Charedim are pretty separatist, as you point out, Rav Ovadia was every outspoken about his criticism of secularists. Heck, he used to broadcast it weekly every Motzai Shabbos on the radio to the entire country. And the man did not mince words. He would've made Tucker blush (lehavdil alfei havdalos). Rav Yitzchak Yosef is following in the ways of his father, not the Ashkenazim.
"Not sure how this is relevant. Natan made the claim that only the RZ care enough about other's mitzvah observance". Because it is not only the Ashkenazi RZ camp that are Zionists. ROY was certainly a Zionist and *also* did care about everyone's observance and for the state. He considered himself leader of all Sefardim at whatever level of observance. He did embrace the Heter Mechirah despite it's bediavad nature for the same reason.
"Insulting secularists is not a Ashkenazi invention." Again you are mixing up the cultures. The Sefardim did not have a signficant "secularist" movement. ROY said all kinds of unfortunate things (like hurricane Katrina affected New Orleans because Blacks don't learn Torah and have no God which). But he embraced all the sefardim at all levels of observance and in fact the Shas party at one time reached 17 seats due to a significant level of support
I was talking about Rav YITZCHAK Yosef, NOT Rav Ovadia. Rav Yitzchak Yosef said to push off Lag B'omer celebartions. I believe Rav Yitzchak is considered to be a lot more Charedi than his father was.
Even Rav Ovadia was not a RZ in the classic sense, he was in a class of his own. Most RZ followers in the style of Rav Kook are very accepting of the secular and believe in working with them. Although Rav Ovadia had Zionist leanings, he was critical of the the secular in a very in-your-face type of way and in many ways more similar to Charedi. Most of his sons and followers certainly ended up that way.
I'm not sure how the second part of your paragraph is disagreeing with me. You said that Rav Yitzchak Yosef learned from the Ashkenazim to dis secularists. I responded that it's not an Ashkenazi thing, it's a ROY thing. You sound like you're agreeing to that now?
Natan wrote that only the DL care about other people's shemiras hatmitzvos and ironically gave Lag b'omer as an example, which was R' Yitzhcak Yosef's idea.
Exactly. But why then all the fuss? Because the Charedi politicians think their own narrow agenda of "stealing" a non-existent hour is more important than the benefits of summer time for the rest of the population.
"How can we approach this issue in a way that respects Halacha but is also for the benefit of society as a whole"
Keeping halacha benefits society as a whole. You are not representing the DL position accurately at all. You are talking about the left-wing gay-rights-promoting, secularist version, which accepts secular values over the Torah. Rabbi Aviner sets out the religious DL position here, and unsurprisingly it is not too different from chareidim https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/rabbi-aviner-on-chareidim
I have no idea what the article from Rav Shlomo Aviner that you reposted has to do with my comment, or the sentence that you quoted.
Rav Shlomo Aviner is a big believer in ואהבת לרעך כמוך - you will (almost) never hear a bad word from him about any segment of society, not the Charedim, or secular, left wingers, or any other sub-segment. The fact that he encourages his followers to love all Jews, including Charedim does not mean that he doesn't think that he need to approach Halacha in a way that is for the benefit of society as a whole.
As you said, keeping Halacha does (or at least should) benefit society as a whole, but only of the possek takes into consideration the needs of society as a whole. Unfortunately, many poskim from the Charedi world have failed that test and do a disservice to both society and Halacha.
You have not described how chareidi poskim have failed this test. For example, if you read the teshuvos of Rav Elyashiv, he clearly took the whole society into account. So it's just a matter of you and your "poskim" not caring about halacha or the Torah in general.
Rav Natan gave a great example in his reply. A number of years ago when Lag B'Omer fell out on Motzei Shabbat the Religious Zionist Poskim tried to get the bonfires at Meron delayed until the following afternoon, to minimize Chilul Shabbat. But the Charedi organizers of the Hilula, presumably with guidance from their poskim, refused to make it later, as it was important to them to have bonfires at the regular time, and they did not seem concerned with the Chilul Shabbat of the security people, firefighters, police officer, bus drivers and many others who would be forced to work on Shabbat.
The approach to Shmitta is another example, the Dati Leumi Rabbanim have tried to find Halachic solutions that will help Religious farmers and the economy as a whole - for example Heter Mechira, Otzar Beit Din, Hydroponic plants, plants grown outside the borders of Eretz Yisrael, etc. By and large Charedi poskim favour non-Jewish or imported produce. This solution can work for a small segment of society, but if the entire country only ate non-Jewish or imported produce, this would completely destroy the agriculture sector of the economy.
Serving in the army is of course another classic example, the Charedi poskim openly say that members of their community do not need to serve, this is possible for a small isolated community, but cannot work for society as a whole.
Universal Kollel is also favouring the needs over one community while ignoring the needs of the economy as a whole.
Shall I go on, or do you get the idea?
Not sure on what basis you say that Poskim from the Datil lemi camp "do not care about halacha", have you read halachic works by Rabbanim like Rav Mordechai Eliyahu, Rav Melamed, Rav Shlomo Aviner, Rav Yisraeli and other major Poskim from the DL community?
All your examples are wrong, with the possible exception of Lag Baomer, a chassidic event. At best you would show that chassidim are not interested in the chillul Shabbos of chilonim. Extending this to most chareidi poskim is nothing less than slander.
Shmitta is a very very bad example. Chareidim fundraise for farmers to keep shemittah, and organize otzar best din. Imported produce is a solution for everybody, not just chareidim. Just because they don't favor your pet "solution" of doing away with shemittah completely doesn't mean they don't care about society. Rabbi Melamed, on the other hand, openly says the best solution is to end agriculture in the country.
Kollel and not serving in the army is an option for everybody, not just chareidim. They are thrilled for more non -chareidim to learn in yeshiva and even open up special yeshivos for them.
So, all bad examples. Maybe your point is that chareidim favor certain policies that theoretically wouldn't work if everybody was chareidi, but then you are not making a good point, just speculating about the future.
I was talking about the left wing Modox DL, like Slifkin, who certainly don't care about halacha.
"Kollel and not serving in the army is an option for everybody"
By this do you mean that you (or your posek) would like to see a society in which 100% of men sit in Kollel and do not go to the army?Do you think that this would not have a negative impact on the economy and security of the country.
If you do NOT believe that EVERYONE should sit in Kollel, by saying that one segment of society should sit in Kollel, and a few individuals are welcome to join the - as long as it is not everyone, then this is a perfect example of caring about one segment of society, but not caring for the country as a whole.
In general when a Charedi posek makes a ruling, the underlying question is "Will this enable the segment of society that follow me to enhance their Mitzva observance?"
In general when a DL posek makes a ruling, the underlying question is "If the entire county accepted this ruling, would it be feasible on a national level".
It is a different ideological approach, the Charedi world in general see themselves as separate from mainstream society and do everything they can to distance themselves from society, the DL world regards themselves as an integral part of society and are trying to find Halachic approaches that will serve society as a whole, not just their community.
Imagine the State took Shemitta seriously. They would find solutions for their problems.
For example, the major difficulty most farmers have in keeping Shemitta is the payments on their equipment. They buy, or rent, multi-million dollar equipment, and the payments must be paid, whether they plant or not. If the deal would be structured in a way that allowed people not to pay during Shemitta, the problem would go away.
There are other solutions, but nobody looks for them. The solution that Rav Kook considered distasteful is lechatchila for them.
You can read chareidi poskim for the next 50 years, and yes, you will believe that chareidi society is beautiful, ethical, caring, loving, medakdek b'mitzovos blah blah blah.
The problem is, there is a huge gap between the theory and the practice in charediland. Just look at the gur on gur violence. A 'godol' declaring a ba'al chesed a 'mazik gomer' is defended on blogs. Hacking paywalls is not unethical. Etc Etc.
And of course, if push comes to shove, you can declare the other chap/group, a kofer/kofrim, or easier, not 're'ehu' and then do what you like to them. After all, bein odom l'chaveoiroh only applies to 're'ehu b'mitzos' right? It's quite clear charedi society only cares about their own (and matters like micro-black-dots on esrogim).
If those are the examples you have to dream up, then we must be doing great! Your little list of crimes is like the greatest advertisement for chareid society there is.
I think from the tremendous amount of outreach chareidim do to the secular, it's clear they care about all Jews.
Only a chareidi could consider gur on gur violence a 'little crime'. But, like believing breaking a payroll is ethical, anything a charedi wants to do, it can be done, by simply downplaying the prohibition or the victim,. This is a society that won't buy an esrog with a micro-black dot on, yet gur on gur violence is only 'a little crime'.
When chareidim start marrying their children into the chaps they have been mekarev, there might be something to talk about. Relatively few of those mekaruved people make it in charedi society, in fact relatively few make it at all in any society. In many cases, they remain drifters. Unless of course they are awealthy hedge fund type chaps. In that case they will be well-cared for.
I read several lines, and he doesn't say the things you claim he does. I will not waste my time with reading irrelevant links. What you should do is provide a summary and an actual quotation.
Please provide the actual quotation from Rav Aviner.
In general his approach is that the Charedim are mistaken, but that we should gently bring them to see the error of their ways and not through force, as in forcing a draft on them. His website seems to be down now or I could references. Not that I am a supporter as he has some pretty extreme views on women's roles as well as credible allegations of very improper behavior as well as defending the improper behavior of others (those things seem to go together).
No, he thinks that his disagreements with the Charedim are very important. As you say that is why he is Zionist and not Charedi. He just believes that they are misguided in these important things and will eventually see the error of their ways. He wants them serving in the IDF but he wants them to do so willingly. If you mean that he considers that the differences don't diqualify them as religious Jews and Talmidei Chacham as the Chereidim do, yes. That is true of the RZ in general. They will quote Charedi poskim and give them deference, while Charedim generally ignore the existence of other streams or their Rabbi and consider them completely invalid no matter how erudite. If they need to quote them, then they do so anonymously. This is definitely an advantage of RZ over Charedi halachah in general. The Charedim forgo lots of good torah leaving theirs often inferior and uninformed compared to where they could be.
He thinks that being religious and Talmidei Chachamim is more important than army service and working. Which is why he says that his community identifies more with chareidim than chilonim.
The reason why most chareidim don't learn from Dati rabbis is because they get confused between the many different types of datiim, some kosher ones who are largely faithful to the Mesorah, like Rabbi Aviner, and some who are definitely not, like "Rabbi" Slifkin, the feminists, or the faigelach-supporters. And this confusion is because there is a continuum between these types, which is part and parcel of the general dati secular-embracing shittah. I think that forgoing some of the good Dati Torah is a small price to pay for the advantage of avoiding the bad. But those chareidim (and there are many) who can distinguish, do learn from the kosher Dati Rabbis.
"He thinks that being religious and Talmidei Chachamim is more important than army service and working."
What one Rabbi says is neither here nor there, but he thinks that yeshivah students need to plan a career and not learn indefinitely. So you are just mischaracterizing him. "Prominent dati leumi posek Rabbi Shlomo HaKohen Aviner Shlita addressed a statistic reporting 40% of chareidim do not work. The rav stated that due to the economic realities in Israel today, an avreich must learn a profession that permits him to support his family. “A talmid yeshiva cannot remain in yeshiva indefinitely. He must earn a living and it is not enough to say ‘Hashem will take care of things and it will be fine’”.
"The reason why most chareidim don't learn from Dati rabbis is because they get confused between the many different types of datiim". Ummm, no. You don't honor someone by lying about their shitah. We are talking about Talmidei Chachamim. They know who is who.
And you are 100% right though that the Charedim generally don't recognizing the existence of Gay orthodox Jews and don't care if they are sent to be sexually abused in the guise of "therapy". (Rav Aharon Feldman made a big step in recognizing that they exist). And yes, they disagree with those crazy feminists who falsely imagine that women can be doctors and such. I mean that is crazy talk. They need to be kept away from any type of higher education because it is obviously their daas is kal and can't handle such stuff in their little heads. Instead we should do the traditional Jewish thing that has always been done throughout Jewish history and have male obstetricians. That is the "true" tsnius.
This essay basically gives over the impression that chareidim are 'selfish' while the more classic approach is to be more communal and responsible. I'm not sure this was on purpose, but this comes off as great PR against chareidim. So let me clarify our position.
Anyone aware of philosophy knows about the paradox between self and community. Someone who brushes his teeth 2x daily even when he's feeling lazy (I think I used this example in a previous comment on the last post), has a better chance of being a good building block to benefit society. Someone who marries and takes care of his wife and kids is generally a better person who can give more to the community. Of course practically there is a lot of variance and nuance, which means a lot of exceptions, but as a general rule, these are fair statements. Brushing teeth isn't "selfish" though this activity technically maximizes the self, because this is actually enabling a better giver. If indeed the teeth brusher is just trying to live healthier just in order to consume more net food over his lifetime, that truly is selfish. But if he is a giving person, and he's brushing his teeth as a responsibility to his family and community to be a healthier person to be able to give more, this "self promoting" act is actually quite selfless.
Chareidim believe that torah learning, besides being the best self discipline ever, fills the world up with Hashem and His influence. (Man has the unique ability to ignore Him and through thinking and caring about Him and following His laws, we fill the void of a world where some *billions* never even heard of Him.) All good in this world comes from His influence, which man controls to a large extent. Call it mysticism, we call it coming and bringing the world closer to God. This is not selfish. At all.
That all being said, I certainly agree that many chareidim can use serious help in their bein adam lchaveiro, as rigorous self focus can and for many does lead to a certain selfishness as they ignore the larger goal by focusing on the day to day details of avoda. But that is a problem with individuals, not with the system, or I guess as any system will have these sorts of issues in implementation.
There's two problems with what you said. One is that charedim *do not believe* that Torah replaces any hishtadlus other than serving in the IDF. It doesn't replace hishtadlus for health. It doesn't replace military protection of charedi towns. Second is that as Michael Sedley pointed out, charedim are not really focused in filling the non-charedi world with Hashem and his influence, especially when it conflicts with charedi interests.
Your first point has to do with אפשר לעשות ע'י אחרים again. We can rehash what I responded last time (what you decided was retorting to other equally problematic arguments: not true) but not sure if you're interested.
As for the second point, can you clarify? We'd be more than overjoyed if anyone else in the world joined us in our mission of being מרבה כבוד שמים. I promise. Maybe I didn't understand you correctly? We don't have other "interests"
It doesn't replace hishtadlus. It complements hishtadlus. And it's not just the IDF. It's a fact that chareidim do less hishtadlus for themselves so that they can study Torah. It's a fact that most Hatzalah members are not the biggest masmidim (of course there may be exceptions). The idea is that Torah study is the most important job there is, especially in today's secularist environment.
Because the DL Judaism of shatnez and kilaim is not attractive. Because the DL belief that we are living in the Messianic times doesn't make sense and doesn't provide the necessary motivation for the religious
Probably because there is good money to be had. If Rabbi X is mekarev the right guys, his kids can be in kollel for life. It's obviously done a little more subteler than that, but some chareidi kiruv organisations are run as businesses (tax exempt too) with their high grade staff on great salaries.
Wow! You really are creative! Let me extend this by saying you comment here because you get paid 100 bucks per comment by some shell rationalist advocacy group!
This is just not true. Do you even have any proof for such a claim? I know multiple people who have worked and do work in kiruv instistutions/Yeshivas.
...is very selfish if he's currently on shift in an ER during a crisis, or a combat soldier in middle of an operation.
"the paradox between self and community"
It's not a paradox. It's a dilemma.
"That all being said, I certainly agree that many chareidim can use serious help in their bein adam lchaveiro,That all being said, I certainly agree that many chareidim can use serious help in their bein adam lchaveiro,"
But didn't a RY just referred to such sentiments as הבל הבלים?
"is very selfish if he's currently on shift in an ER during a crisis, or a combat soldier in middle of an operation."
you seem to have missed my point. i wasn't saying people should be brushing their teeth in the ER. but the dr wwho brushes his teeth will often be a better dr. ow during war we can have a discussion about what to do, but that doesn't change what our attitude in life should be
if we have the whole story, i disagree with that RY's approach
I agree , it certainly comes across as DL are (as a group) selfless and Chareidim are (as a group) selfish.
It stems. I believe from a lack of understanding of chariedi hashkafa, which has somehow resulted in a conclusion that chareidim don't actually care, and anytime they say they do its just an excuse (lie). Instead of being a genuine disagreement in hashkafa .
But I would have to add that this problem actually rests (partly) on chareidi shoulders as well. Many chareidim are not aware of the bigger picture and are actually selfish die to their personal avoda. No one who is a gadol or a leader thinks they but there are some of the masses that are like this. We do need to improve.
In essence what I'm saying is is that the issue is not only with outsiders who lack understanding of the hashkafa, but also with insiders who also lack this proper understanding.
But as I said, this is a side effect of a culture and its population, not of the core ideology. We need to distinguish the two.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ...
I didn't see Rabbi Lichtenstein's article beyond your quote, but it sounds totally out to lunch. (ן also find it hypocritical for people to rely on a selective curation of agadata quotes, while refusing to allow the other side the same privilege. When coupled with the Kabbalistic concept of נהמא דכיסופא, the hypocrisy screams.)
A halachic sevara or rule stands by itself. You cannot decide 'what Torah is all about' and determine Halacha based on that. If indeed this was a מצוה שאפשר לעשות ע"י אחרים, the Halacha of Bitul Torah would trump the Army service.
I don't know that it is relevant to this specific case, because the obligation to serve in the Army is not to save lives.
If we were discussing the Mitzvah of saving lives and helping others, it is certainly a מצוה שאפשר לעשות ע"י אחרים, and Limud Hatorah comes first. Morality follows Halacha, not the other way around.
So if you're stuck on a desert island after a plane crash, and you can either eat shellfish or your dead co-passengers, you'd eat your dead co-passengers?
That's actually a solid point. The question is where to draw the line tho. Not an easy answer at all. But I contend that if we need to revamp the entire yeshivos system with no guarantee that the void can be filled, that's a good place to draw the line
And yes we would need daas Torah to make this decision
There is a Halcha of מאכילין אותו הקל הקל, and if that demands I overcome my natural squeamishness and eat humans instead of shellfish, פיקוח נפש trumps all.
Or that the main problem of necrophilia would be motzei zera levatalah. A prominent acharon (I forget who) holds that the prohibition of walking around naked precedes the Torah, that it's basic normal human behavior.
If the Halacha is different, the issue is an academic Halachic one, not personal morality vs. Torah. Nothing trumps Torah.
Slifkin's link is to someone with little access to primary sources. It is scholarly for armchair scholars, those who don't like investing effort into understanding things and knowing them thoroughly. Even from a secular standpoint, they are sorely lacking. They don't even quote Philo on the subject.
It is certainly gross. But it is no different to your behavior if there were no shellfish to be found. If you were stuck in a desert with nothing but the body of your spouse, would you starve to death?
We are talking about extenuating circumstances here.
I have yet to hear of a psak that says differently. If there is, I will change my mind accordingly.
I don't understand how the logic of "if there are others to do the mitzva, keep learning" could possibly apply in the case of soldiers fighting to protect the country, for a couple of reasons.
First, this soldier whom you are letting to the mitzvah while you learn is also protecting YOU. Why should he precede you in the mitzvah to protect you? Do you think chazal meant to apply this principle of "if there are others" even that far? This attitude sounds a lot like the guy who lets the other guy do all the work helping load/unload his animal while he, the owner, stands by and says, God gave him the mitzvah, not me. Chazal say that in such a case the mitzvah no longer applies. The same logic should apply here.
Secondly, the soldier who is fighting while you learn also needs your chessed of your participation. He's risking his life for you and wants you to take a turn so he can rest, or get your help, or at least receive the moral support of knowing that the people he's fighting for stand with him. If you fight alongside him you could save his life. The principle of "if there are others" no longer makes sense in a case where those others, by doing the mitzvah, are making a great sacrifice or taking a great risk that would be alleviated by your help. The demand for this particular chessed for that soldier cannot be fulfilled by that soldier. It needs you.
As for your analogy of the guy standing on the side doing nothing, that only means anything if you believe lomdei torah are doing nothing.
To your second "argument," again if you can prove that the yeshivos can continue their mission by changing their whole tune to help the war effort, by all means
You think that the Halakhah is that if the owner of the animal decides to sit and learn Torah while the passerby loads/unloads it, the passerby remains obligated? I'd like to see a source for that.
I don't know what mission you're talking about (you can point me to a comment that I might not have read), but as far as I know God gave the same mission, Torah and Halakhah, to all Jews.
"You think that the Halakhah is that if the owner of the animal decides to sit and learn Torah while the passerby loads/unloads it, the passerby remains obligated?"
no. but are you allowed to watch a clean movie in america while soldiers are fighting on the front lines there?
the mission i'm referring to is one of becoming a talmid chochom which is an entire life's work. not everyone is מחוייב to do this, but כלל ישראל needs some who give up their entire lives to learning כל התורה כולה אליבא דהלכתא. see igros moshe YD 4 siman 36 at length. this is the model the yeshivos try to enable, and no other system does or can enable this model
Since Halacha is a system that deals in quantities and limits, and time-frames, I'd like to know the shiur [in terms of effort, danger, time, cost etc] for "someone else can do it".
Up to what point can the Torah-learner say "someone else can serve in the army", and for that matter "someone else can provide for me financially" or "someone else can take care of our elderly parents?". Does the someone else need to be a specific person? or just the general population ["there must be somebody who can get killed in Gaza instead of me"]
Where do you draw the line?
This is not a theoretical question as the proportion of full time learners becomes an increasingly large part of the population
since you're asking a very pointed question (thanks for that), i need to make sure we don't get away from the main point. the first thing, regarding the state, we're all thrilled that it exists and that we can keep all the many mitzvos that come along with it - not to mention the ability to connect with Hashem that is only possible here in our home, but at the same time we would not give up our growth in torah for all of these "maalos" (i put that in quotes because really they are much more than that, but at the same time, in this context, that is how they are to be treated in the hierarchy of things). while we are here, we truly, truly appreciate it, and we will use it to boost our focus of torah. but letting go of that focus, in our view, will be more damaging.
now, the facts are that the chareidim have won. we have the numbers to vote for exemptions and we got'm.
i understand that this has some horrible sounding ramifications. it means we "don't care about anything but ourselves." we are living in this country and are not willing to fight for it. we're just leeches. but hey - guess what? that was the antisemitic rhetoric for our entire existence! we were always hated because we were leeches. we've always lived in other countries while we really never cared about them. we never joined their armies (unless we were forced, which was considered a terrible tragedy), we never became "them." and it bothered our hosts to no end. i hate to say it, and i i say this hoping you can take this in context, but this isn't quite so different. this is what happens when the mission is olam haba and torah, not olam hazeh. we don't get sucked up in the noise of the world and all of its screaming "hishtadlus." we simply do what He asks, and He in turn takes care of the menial stuff. that is chareidi ideology. (again, it's not actually like other countries, but in the scale of importance to our torah learning, it is)
it may sound selfish, but it really just is a different value system. the call to fight in the army is the same as the call to fight in the american army. saving israel is simply not something worth giving up yiddishkeit for. when our numbers are really needed, hopefully the army will have no choice but to make real accommodations on our terms, limiting the spiritual damage.
that all being said, there are real problems in the chareidi community that need to be fixed. we are too insular, too selfish and too not caring. not everyone learning appreciates what they are doing - proof: they would be learning a whole lot better if they did! their shmoneh esreis would be a lot more meaningful if they did! facts are, we need to do teshuva, majorly, but the issue isn't the system. it is that we are a part of this system and not maximizing it.
"saving Israel is not worth the price." So you accept others paying the price instead. My boys have to risk their lives for yours, but yours will not risk their lives for mine. Honestly, anyone who feels that way should just leave Israel.
You're mixing emotions with facts. I can respond that if there would be a gezeira against torah my sons would fight and risk their lives while yours would not. So you should leave Israel. But that's not a fair statement. We have different priorities which means we will fight for different things.
No they would not. They would discover the halochoh that you can be yotze talmud torah with krias shemah (which is my peshat as to why bitul torah is missing from al cheit, but I digress), and leave it at that. They would not risk their lives for talmud torah, pikuach nefesh after all (to avoid misunderstandings, I am not talking about shemiras hamitvos).
1. Gone is the era where we have one person who knows everything. We are a really, really, unprecedentedly poor generation. While we now have more people technically learning, we are mostly bearing the burden together. 50+ of us create one reb moshe feinstein. Spread throughout 50+ of us we get a collective baki in OC, YD, CM, EH, kodshim, zeraim and taharos.
2. Besides that , Hashem is super thrilled that we have so many in the beis medrash. Especially since outside the beis medrash everything changed. Today's baalabos simply isn't learning the 9 hrs the Rambam talks about. The bnei beis midrash are netting like 12 hours as day for the most part. So yes, now more than ever this is what we need to keep the emes alive.
3. Also, not sure where you got the number 150k. I would think it's more like 45k. But I wouldn't die on this hill.
4. Lastly, bachurim are a different story. Every bachur (who grows up with the chareidi mindset of chashivus for torah) should be given the opportunity to learn with his undivided attention, for a variety of reasons.
But these are side points. The most important question for you, when we get down to it, is how exactly do you propose we implement this change you guys are asking for? By taking away the draft exemption law? How would that look practically? This is probably the most important thing for you to clarify if we're going to have a real conversation and not just complaints about our methods.
First of all I appreciate the detail and respectful tone of your response, and your honesty.
I would like to share a few points:
1- First of all, you write "the facts are that the chareidim have won. we have the numbers to vote for exemptions and we got'm."
That might be true, and certainly the Chareidi riots that take place every time there is talk of changing the system have been effective. But the fact that your community *can* do something, doesn't make it right. I would claim that by your community not serving, you are causing me direct and measurable harm. (I would also claim that you are causing your own community harm, as well, but that is a separate issue). If every community did nothing but stand up for their right to do whatever they want, we would be living in a very unpleasant place.
2- I understand your need/desire to live according to Chareidi values. In the US, it's easy (or easier)..it's the land of live and let live. As long as American Chareidim can figure out how to pay for their "lifestyle" of learning and not working, they bother no one.
In Israel it's different...both because of the army, and the size of the Chareidi population relative to the size of the overall population and economy. Chareidi non-participation has major consequences on the population as a whole.
3- I respect the importance of the Chareidi lifestyle and belief system to the average Chareidi (even if I disagree that it reflects Ratzon Hashem). Nevertheless, as sincerely held your beliefs are (we're talking mainly about the belief of the primacy of Torah study, and how it trounces just about anything else), you can't argue that everyone else should give up something (in this case it could even be their lives..in the current war) to support those beliefs. Let's say a group of "super-Nachmanim" would gradually appear (and grow over the years), believing that they need to spend 6 months a year in Uman. During that time, they of course wouldn't work, wouldn't serve in the army, and they would expect the government to support their families. Would we be obligated to do so just because of their sincerely held beliefs?
do you think klal yisroel needs to have some people that are talmidei chachamim who do nothing but learn? you can make the number of people as small as you wish, say 10 people. all of klal yisroel needs 10 batlanim who don't contribute to society or to the army; all they do is master the torah. is that something you think is needed?
if yes, those 10 people, are they somehow less than everyone else because they aren't caring enough about society? (i'd add to this, what about the kohanim in the beis hamikdash who were living off terumah and handouts? but we can leave this aside for now) or, quite the opposite, these are the elite who are giving up all pleasures of the world to be able to lead klal yisroel in torah. and we all appreciate that we have them and even support and encourage them in their endeavor as they lead this most selfless life possible. because of that we happily remove all menial tasks and split them up amongst ourselves.
i understand that this is only for those elite few and is not for just anybody and everybody who claims to be chareidi. which is why the numbers matter, especially when many of those numbers aren't quite so single mindedly focused on torah and avoda. but this is the starting point of we are going to discuss this matter properly and we can take it from here
No, we don't need anyone who does nothing at all apart from learn. What are they contributing? We need Torah scholars and teachers who will enrich knowledge for the Jewish People. Just like the Kohanim were serving in the Beis HaMikdash. Look at the lashon of Rambam.
first of all, ChanaRachel, we are davening that Hashem should help us not need to cry any longer. what you're going through with your family and community is so distant to me but your comments help me keep things a bit more real. i would love tehilim names. if you'd rather send privately, you can send to my email, davidschulmannn@gmail.com. (of course no pressure at all)
now, to your points, i can respond line by line, but i think it all boils down to one point, so i'll just make my (the chareidi) case: we both agree that there are many issues with chareidi culture, the selfishness it can lead to for one, but as a whole, how important is it that we have a group of people learning torah, that actually need to be exempt from the army? this discussion, for the most part, is highly correlated to the numbers, and as the numbers of chareidim grow and grow, the issues begin. but let's start simple: do we need *any* young people to sit and learn and not go to the army?
idk where you stand on this, but the chareidi outlook is that we absolutely *need* at least a fair amount. this is for two reasons. (1) there is a chiyuv on klal yisroel to have chachmei torah, people that give up their entire lives to master shas and poskim. this premise is spelled out most clearly, to my knowledge, in igros moshe YD v4 siman 36. reb moshe makes the case that we need a group of people that can lead the nation in torah. these people are actually not supposed to indulge in any worldly pleasures. on them is the mishna of פת במלח תאכל and they are not to be distracted by parnassa or other issues. reb moshe makes the case that even just the amount of people who are *eligible* to become this level of torah scholar is quite low. only those who (a) appreciate torah and (b) know what it means to reach the depths of the sugya and understand its beauty are able to be a part of this. to those whom torah is not the ultimate value, it is not nogea. so we're left with the few bnei yeshiva, and there simply aren't enough today.
as far as reb moshe's chiyuv is concerned, two things are different in our discussion from what he is discussing in his teshuva. (a) when reb moshe said this, torah was not thriving like it is today. now there truly are plenty of us. (b) reb moshe was dealing with individuals going to college and spending extra money on trips, not on communal responsibilities like the army or the economy. so how does this play out today? before we get to that, there is a second thing.
(2) the purpose of this world is to develop a personal connection with Hashem so that we can build our olam haba (נהנין מזיו השכינה is the fruit of this relationship). while this may seem a bit selfish, it actually isn't. this is a philosophical point, but every step of living in this world pulls us away from that relationship. our bodies want to indulge. we have to fix ourselves to become loftier, greater, better people and not just live by our whims. this is the ultimate sacrifice. and even if it seems that we are doing it to 'maximize' pleasure, first of all, ultimately we are to shed even that and do it just because Hashem wants it, not us, but even until we get there, this is just an incentive to live by Another's will *as opposed* to our own. it is only selfish in a very minute way (and for that matter, joining the army because you will feel like a more noble person can also be called selfish). the facts are that living a completely selfless life, even if we use the incentive of ultimate good to inspire ourselves, is not selfishness. giving up one's life to halacha and torah is an extremely hard life to live. this is the life which the chareidi culture ultimately strives to create. the way this works though is a bit complex, but it starts with torah. through learning torah for real, we connect to His will and eventually bridge this toward this relationship with Him. this last point would need a whole background to really explain, and we can email if you're interested, but the point is that this building of people who care of nothing other than Hashem in a real way, is only possible to be facilitated in a beis midrash. it is for these reasons that we hold torah learning as the ultimate value.
all of your points boil down to, "are the chareidim right?" if we are, this value is not something to compromised. if we aren't, then we indeed are no different than the super-Nachmanim you mentioned. and yes, israel is very different than other countries, but even in israel, this is the value we care about. and yes being the winner is not necessarily good, unless the winner's values are correct.
how this plays out practically? as numbers grow this becomes a real issue. the chareidim will need to make changes without compromising the system. how? i'd love to hear ideas!
sorry that was really long, and i barely scratched the surface...
In order to answer, I need to clarify what you would propose be done to change the way things are. Eliminate the draft exemption for yeshiva students? See my question for Natan above
Even though I wouldn't phrase it as such I believe there is legitimacy to the question, in what scenario will the Charedim (as a whole) decide go to war / join the army?
Each question is dealt with separately, the money one for example, is dependent on the individual, what is sustainable and how much are they willing to sacrifice. There is no rule. It is not Assur to work.
I don't get the old people one.
And there must be someone who can die... its just plain hurtful if you think that is the attitude. This idea that chareidim don't care about people dying is a slanderous lie.
If it is not Assur to go to work, which is for the benefit of mainly the individual himself, and is a long term commitment, why should it be Assur to go to the army, which is a shorter term interruption, and for the sake of the Klal?
Regarding the "old people", I'll explain. In almost every family there will generally be at least one elderly relative who requires care. Parts of the care are often done by paid caregivers, but much of the care generally still falls on the family...for example taking shifts at the hospital so the elderly relative won't be left alone. How does "exempt if someone else can do it" play out in such a situation? Does learning trump Kibud Horim- the sons/grandsons who are learning don't take shifts at the hospital? Or maybe they do..
I'm interested in understanding what if any situations justify a [temporary/complete or partial] break from learning, and then applying it to army service as well..
If we are to speak strictly halachically ,on the topic of "can be done by others'(I dont necessarily believe this is the core reason charedim dont go to the army). There is a fundamental difference between the army and the other 2 examples you gave.
Kibud av veim is something that ,by definition, cannot fall on someone else I have the responsibility to honor my parents and only I can do that mitzvah. A sibling cannot honor a parent for another sibling.
Similarly with livelihood , each person has a responsibility to ensure his own livelihood , I cannot make someone else responsible for my livelihood. If that responsibility is taken care of by other means, being supportive parents , trusts , or just being happy living an incredibly basic life there is nothing wrong with that.I am not foregoing that responsibility. Point being responsibility is on each individual .It cant be done by others specifically because it is personal.(I hope this comes across clearly)
As for the Army , I have no clear answer to when. But, as I said above, the question is legitimate , and I dont believe the answer is never.
The main issue I have with this blog and many of its commentators , is not the opposition to chareidi ideologies, nor the questions/challenges. (In many cases they are most definitely valid and difficult questions.) I take issue with the resulting conclusions (charedim dont care selfish etc). Just because one does not know why something is , does not mean you do not know why something is not.
Thank you for being able to have a civil conversation.Even with opposing views.
..and I think your answer at least defines the basis of our differences, even if it doesn't resolve them.
For the Dati Leumi community, army service, responsibility to the Jewish people, comes before even Kibbud Horim & Parnassa, because we believe that there is really no one else who can fight instead of us.
Here is a very brief Tshuva written by Rav Cherlow (I assume religiously way to the left for you), but read his logic..that is what we believe. He discusses an only child who is the primary care coordinator for his parent. The son asks, if called to miluim, should he go, or stay back to take care of his parent:
I doubt we'll agree, but at least we know what we disagree on, and next time you pass a Chayyal in uniform walking down the street, at least buy him a falafel
These same questions can be asked from non-chareidim as well. The difference is that chareidim make a huge oversized contribution to the spiritual welfare of the country, which is the most important contribution.
>"BANana added that this is an example of how we are coming from two totally different universes.
I couldn’t agree more with the latter sentiment. But allow me to explain why, although he thinks that his universe is the one of Torah, I think it’s the exact opposite. My response is based on the writings of Rav Aharon Lichtenstein, ztz”l, which I think are representative on this topic for the dati-leumi perspective in general (and indeed of Chazal, and in fact of everyone until the modern phenomenon of charedi Judaism - and even then, perhaps until the late-20th century permutation of it)."
I'd like to suggest a different framing here.
You view this through the perspective of Rationalism vs. Mysticism. This split in worldviews goes back to medieval times, reaching its peak with the Maimonidean controversies, and the split between philosophy and Kabbalah.
I'd like to suggest a different framing: Biblical vs Talmudic. Early Zionists explicitly talked about "negation of the Diaspora", meaning, the last 1800 years (from the failed bar kochba rebellion) until their time, and a return to Tanakh. Rav Kook and his religious Zionist followers similarly explicitly talked about a return to Torat Eretz Yisrael. Essentially, negating aspects of the Talmud Bavli that didn't fit being a sovereign state.
In contrast, the Talmud consistently de-emphasizes the military aspects of Tanakh, and rabbinizes the figures there (see one example of this in my latest post: https://www.ezrabrand.com/p/one-day-david-went-falcon-hunting) . The supreme ideal for Chazal was learning Torah, which nowadays would be called "ivory tower", and they were indeed extremely insular, and harshly denigrate amei ha'aretz.
Exactly. When we call him a kofer, it's not just a slur. It's because he is really a kofer, as we see in this exchange. And that is where his entire worldview is coming from.
You are conceding that you are the מוציא, classical Judaism did not accept the new Jew of Zionism. Yet you still try and claim, based on external factors and tiny nuances, that Charedism is the innovation.
So Shas Bavli could deal with the Industrial Revolution, galus under Moslems and Christians, Western liberalism, as well as fundamentalist cultists, but when it comes to a State of Israel, no more Shas Bavli.
Isn't that the best argument against a State of Israel?
Mr. Brand, I must thank you. You're the best thing that ever happened to RJ. Until now, Natan's game was to say, "We're the real Jews. The way Chazal wanted Jews to be. And were not kofrim. The Charedim are the impostors."
Along comes Ezra Brand and says, "Charedim are the golus, insulated Jews who follow in the footsteps of Chazal. But we're kofrim and don't believe in Chazal. We believe in 'ancient Judaism'." To which Natan responds, "You're right!"
In a few short lines, you said everything that the Charedim on this blog have been saying all these years. And Natan agreed to you! I think we can all close up shop now.
"In contrast, the Talmud consistently de-emphasizes the military aspects of Tanakh, and rabbinizes the figures there"
I think this the right moment to mention R Lichtenstein's argument that while Chazal describe biblical warriors like David as learning Torah, they do not contradict the language of Tanach that these figures also fought wars. Thus, the picture that emerges from Chazal is that these figures both fought wars and learned Torah. Unsurprisingly R Lichtenstein led an institution whose students both fight wars and learn Torah, and it seems like an approach all communities should follow.
So basically, we have to rethink our acceptance of Talmud Bavli and all generations that accepted it and used it as the final authority in order to accept your worldview.
I don't know how anyone could have made a better argument against your opinion than that. To accept Lichtenstein's opinion, we would have to give up Judaism as we know it. Great. I wonder what his father in law would have said to that.
I just wanted to clarify here: I realize now that "negating" isn't precise. A better term would be "moderating" it, in the sense of taking into account a broader range of traditional sources, including Tanakh, Talmud Yerushalmi, Midrashim, Kabbalah, etc, with an emphasis on Eretz Yisrael and sovereignty.
In the same way that Chazal in their time heavily emphasized the aspect of Torah study, because militarism and sovereignty were less relevant, and even dangerous, taking into account all the failed rebellions against Rome, and general Roman antisemitism and heavy-handedness, or what would properly be called "colonialism" nowadays. (That term is of course loaded nowadays, and often misused and abused for political reasons, but is in fact a proper historical description of how Rome ruled, and "colony" is in fact a Latin term)
Very nice, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle. NS already agreed to your original version - which IS outright kefirah in Chazal - and the readers (critics) of this blog are more interested in what HE thinks..
It's also no coincidence that the development of Torah sheba'al peh coincided to a large extent with the destruction of the Second Temple, as has been noted by many.
man ur 2 much about hate. you gotta focus on ur inner peace. make piece with the demons inside you. u aint goin anywer in life if u let them torment u. i dont no ur history but man u got bagage. let bygones be bygones. i luv my hebrew brothers. piece to u all
It is similar to your framing, but yours adds in a point about selfishness. I don't agree that Chareidim are selfish at all, it merely stems from the opinion that Torah learning is the most selfless thing can be done. In contrast, someone Dati would categorize someone only focusing on learning as being selfish because he is only focusing on his own improvement.
Kvod harav, i agree with most of your points, but in a note for unity: why would we have to choose between the two? We do need people who learn, and remind the rest of the nation the importance of limmud torah, and it goes without saying that there is no stronger mitzvah than saving jewish lives (here, as part of the army). Couldn't we think of ways to integrate these two parts of the nation together? The midrash says that when Yehoshua went to battle, a 3rd of the army were fighters, a third were handling logistics, and a third praying. We could certainly try to replicate that to some extent and get the different fringes of the nation together.
Something of an “apples and oranges” fallacy at work. Also, maybe a “time and place” issue. If Torah study is most important, certainly it comes in 2nd place if you have to stop to give someone the Heimlich Maneuver.! There is a time and a place…. And saying Torah study is how the world keeps going is a non-falsifiable assertion fallacy. Can’t make heads or tails of its truth content. The quintessence of how all religions operate….probably not worth arguing over as a result. Can’t be probed further…
The “apples and oranges” fallacy is also at work. Killing an enemy before he kills you is one kind of activity, Torah study another kind. Too unalike to compare. Like trying to compare Crime and Punishment by Dostoevsky with a pamphlet from your doctor on HIV. Sure, they’re both written material, but…
An interesting issue here is to what extent the Charedi worldview is an adaptation to Diasporic Judaism, and classical and national Zionist perspectives are simply the return to a Judaism compatible with sovereignty. For me the rabbinic aversion to dead penalty and the extreme concern for hostages are scars remaining in Judaisms from a long non sovereign period. Learned helplessness.
Agreed. The problem is hareidim still go with this outdated rabbinic stuff like the Babylonian Talmud. They need to stop with this rabbinical Judaism and return to Biblical Judaism.
Is this a closed forum, open only to Jews residing in the Land of Israel? I reside in Massachusetts - nobody lives here except Bubby and Zaidy!?
From ‘hoots l’oretz’ (Bavel) you sound - not like talmidim of Hillel and Shammai - but talmidim of Maimonides, who words are not to be disobeyed or another posek as long as the loyalty to the ‘nation’ , I. E., צה״ל is unquestioned , just obedience to ‘rationalism’ is all that is necessary. Please rationalize Tehilim 76.
there is a dictum in the Talmud אין סומלים אל הנס, We do not rely on miracles. If a hamas terrorist comes to rape your daughter, the only way to stop it is to shoot the bastard and kill him before he gets close to your daughter. That is a physical fact. If you do not do that, then the blood is on your head (for being foolish).
Hi Slifkin. When we call you a kofer, it's not just a slogan or catchphrase the way you bandy about the kabbalistic phrase "Nahama d'kisufa". It's real and important. Throughout your writings, you are kofer in many fundamentals of Judaism such as prayer, hashgacha klalis, hashgacha pratis, schar v'onesh, miracles, the truth of the Torah. And this informs your entire worldview, which has nothing to do with rationalism, or the Rambam, or Zionism, or Dati Leumi, but is exclusively your rejection of Judaism. Period.
This discredits all your opinions on the matter. Your opinions on chareidim serving, or anything else pertaining to chareidim, or to Dati leumi, or to Judaism, are no more relevant than the pope's.
The Dati Leumi poskim who hold that there is an obligation for yeshiva students to serve are not coming from the same worldview as you, so we don't call them kofrim. We simply disagree with them. We hold that Torah study is an overriding *communal* responsibility, especially in today's secularist environment, that people like you are responsible for. That doesn't mean we can't be grateful for the soldiers that serve. We just realize that Torah is even more important, which is classical Judaism.
Hey what about my beliefs that the universe is billions of years old and that Chazal were sometimes mistaken about the natural world? How come you left those out?
Because I was only including examples of your kefirah, not your stupidity.
Are those beliefs kefirah or not?
Thanks for making my point.
They're not?
No they're not, as anyone with slightly more depth than a London puddle can tell you. It does lead people towards Kefirah which is why Dc Koifers books were banned. And yes, the dcs other views if not outright heretical are at the very least uncomfortably close to being as such. HHH comment was [sadly] spot on.
His answer is the reason he may not be a Kofer.
He is a kal da'as, he doesn't think much about his opinions, he doesn't treat his opinions seriously, he doesn't research his facts, he doesn't care for 'right and wrong'. That's why airy snarky remarks are enough for him, that's why he can never quote a primary source, and that's why he never manages to understand those who disagree with him.
Why is belief in a 14 billion year old universe stupid? Unless you consider all of our great scientific minds idiots.
Because there's no way to know the age of the universe, if you don't know how it started. All scientists can say is, that assuming everything always was the same as it is today (i.e. all laws of physics etc.), then the universe is x years old. Now they assume everything was the same since the beginning, because why would they assume otherwise.
Now you can argue that they are indeed idiots, because since they admittedly have no idea how it all started, they have no right to make assumptions.
Or you can say that מעשה בראשית is a mystery,as many well respected Rabbonim say, and you don't have to weasel many answers to many questions. Fossil history, different levels of development of ancient societies, and different subhuman development of brain and body structure. etc.. I would keep the subject open to personal choice and not scream koifer.
Do you have any evidence there were changes? Evidentaly not. Maybe Superman is responsible?! Ridiculous. Anyway R. Kook he indicated that if scientific evidence appears to contradict the literal account of the Creation one can reinterpret it.This means that you are not necessarily bound by literal interpretation of the Creation account. Also R.SF Hirsch and others.What makes you so sure it has to be a literal the interpretation.
You clearly do not know science and are one of those who assume they are idiots.
No ash. There are people far more qualified academically than the dc, who have answered the q more than adequality. But as Slifkin is wont to do, he ignores all those who have offered up satisfactory solutions. because he doesn't even have time to read the defences people offer on his blog, lol.
Sometimes a little common sense can go a long way.
Its stupid when coming from an idiot who thinks he's dug up a gold mine that proves all those wiser than himself, wrong!
Not the belief itself. The way he treats the question.
Can you elaborate? He tries to answer.
Far stupider are chareidi approaches that assume all scientists are idiots.
Ash, people like this have nothing of substance to offer. They haven't written books or articles to refer you to, they won't even give arguments in their comments.
For example, he thinks that since he once said something that is subject to a dispute whether if it is kefirah or not (in Challenge of the creation he writes some pretty damning unequivocal kefirah, though), that gives him unlimited license to say whatever he wants on any subject without worrying if it is kefirah. That is an example of stupidity.
Equally stupid is thinking that if Rebbi said the chachmei haumos are right, that gives Slifkin a license to argue with Chazal whenever he wants. Not even kefirah. Just stupidity.
He wrote you're kofer in the truth of the Torah, you can interpret that however you'd like.
But if you're busy writing that the Torah is a collection of fairytales, I can understand why the other issues didn't get an honorary mention.
You may be right, Hashkafic halfway house (what is that a reference to?), but I don't think this type of pointing out will get you anywhere. Rabbi Slifkin doesn't think he is a heretic and neither do his followers. What you can do is point out where they are wrong. And you may see that it's not as clear. You still may be correct in your approach. I think Haredim are closer to the truth. But I think the other side has some good points and we can all learn by coming together.
For example, you may be correct that God is running the world, but we still do our Hishtadlut. It may be true that we only do that when it isn't at the expense of our Avodah, and that this world looks dark to test us and we should be having more trust in God, but where to draw that line is difficult. It depends on the person and the situation and the time and the factors.
Also, although the Torah is the most important thing, not everyone can or even should be studying all day. There are twelve Shebatim with different roles. So the Haredi perspective is a good way to be Shebet Levi or Issachar, but all those who need to work and live more in this world for all kinds of circumstances in their lives, they need to live in the world in a more practical way. What about someone who is taken by science. Haredim's answers aren't always practical, even if they are correct. We need to be able to engage with all types. All this kind of comment does is distance people.
Yo my man Shemesh, I agree with most of your comment. We can't have kollel for all, all the time, and there is much to improve in chareidi society. Criticism is important. But not from people who reject our core values.
The reason for my comment is because it is important to point out that Slifkin doesn't represent anything about Judaism. This won't help for his diehard supporters, but it will help people on the fence who are considering taking him seriously.
Hashkafic halfway house is a reference to when I began commenting, it was on a post that reported somebody who felt "hashkafically homeless".
You are full of it. I didn't see anything wrong with RNS's views though I might not agree with all of them. They are within the 13 Principles of Faith of the Rambam. You have your fixed ideas that your trusted Rebbi told you and therefore anyone who differs is a kofer.First of all it is a terrible sin to call a person a kofer.You may point out that a particular idea is not acceptable.
We don't need to relitigate this every post. He is a kofer in those things I mentioned in many, many of his articles. Therefore, his views on Judaism are no better than the Pope's. Actually, probably worse.
"We don't need to relitigate this every post."
So stop bringing it up.
I bring it up because it's important and people are forgetting.
Such a hero.
Wow. Excellently put! To better understand the Charedi perspective, see this post.
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/misleibeled
I think there's a lot of noise out there as to what the Charedi shita actually is, but this post puts it down in very clear terms.
Brilliant article. And believe it or not, its even more articulate than the docs trash. Seems like there are Charadim out there who actually have an education. Gosh
how many accounts do you have? or did 25 separate people actually like this comment? just saying...
I actually don't know why this got so many likes. Most of my comments aren't so popular. It's definitely possible there are one or more people with multiple accounts, but even so, why this comment?
lol or one troll decided this should be today's popular post
It got so many likes, because people appreciated you called out his Kefirah where it applies and didnt fall for the docs silly baiting about heretical-ising his views about the age of the universe. Its comments like yours that make the dc look foolish, as all begin to realize how low he has fallen just to get back at those that he feels slighted him
So you think 28 separate people liked that comment? And like 23 of them within like the first few minutes of being published?
Sure.
Hmm... Why indeed?
man thats hate. its not cool
Dear sweet God, this is a disgusting post. To target an ordained Rabbi, whose education and ordination was well within the bounds of the Orthodox community and the mesorah and spew trolltastic garbage at him no matter what he posts is eirev rav-level.
Who cares if he was "ordained"? He went off the derech and is now a kofer and a שונא תורה. He is a troll himself who has dedicated his life to promoting hatred of the chareidi community. Our comments are not even one hundredth of what he deserves. We are actually too nice to him.
So what are you doing on his website?
I explained that already. It's important to show readers that Slifkin does not represent Judaism in any way, shape, or form.
"It's important to show readers that Slifkin does not represent Judaism in any way, shape, or form."
How many readers have you convinced of that? You might be more effective if you can present links to detailed arguments. Plus, if you use your real name. People don't take anonymous trolls too seriously.
I think I have convinced lots of people. Maybe not your diehard supporters, but people on the fence.
Everybody here already knows about Irrationalist Modoxism. They have tons of evidence. Not that much evidence is needed. Every time you mockingly ask "Isn't parnassah from Hashem?", or try to argue that tehillim doesn't kill terrorists, you are announcing it loudly and clearly.
What you have ended up doing is showing that you do not represent real Judaism, in any way shape or form. Because if you did, God help us all.
The difference is that I can easily demonstrate how Slifkin's ideology differs completely from Judaism. Whereas you cannot do the same for me. Unless, as I suspect, your Judaism is nothing more than a collection of slogans and catchphrases that suit you, and so the people who represent Judaism are the ones who you happen to like.
I love your summary of the difference between the Haredi and DL outlook as "Personal Responsibility" vs "Communal Responsibility", and we see it in almost every aspect of Halacha, not just the Mitzva of serving in the Army.
For example, the question of how to approach Shmitta, the Haredi community ask "How can I get produce that conforms to all the requirements of Shmitta", the DL community as "How can we run a society and build an economy based on the requirements of Shmitta".
Similarly the question of moving graves, work on public infrastructure on Shabbat, providing an education for our children, setting up a kashrut system, determining how marriage, burials, or conversions should be handled, the DL community doesn't ask "What is best for me and my personal needs", rather "How can we approach this issue in a way that respects Halacha but is also for the benefit of society as a whole"
Another example: when Lag BOmer falls on Motzash - moving bonfires to Sunday night to prevent chilul Shabbat by emergency services
I don't know so much about the Israeli scene, but I thought that Rav Yitzchak Yosef is the one that decided to push it off? He's pretty Charedi.
I think that you are confusing Sefardim with Ashkenazim. The Sefardim never dealt with reform in their midst and never espoused either the separatism nor the anti-zionism of the separatist Ashkenazim. Rav Ovadia Yosef always had the approach of dealing with all the people whether observant or not and always thought the State was important, supported (and performed) the heter Mechirah, etc. I know less about R Yitzchak Yosef other than to know that yes, he seems to have picked up the Ashkenazi style of insulting the non-religious in public, but he still comes from a Zionist tradition.
Not sure how this is relevant. Natan made the claim that only the RZ care enough about other's mitzvah observance and gave Lag B'omer as an example. I pointed out that this Lag B'omer thing was R' Yitzchak Yosef's idea, who is in no way considered to be RZ.
Insulting secularists is not a Ashkenazi invention. If anything, although the Ashkenazi Charedim are pretty separatist, as you point out, Rav Ovadia was every outspoken about his criticism of secularists. Heck, he used to broadcast it weekly every Motzai Shabbos on the radio to the entire country. And the man did not mince words. He would've made Tucker blush (lehavdil alfei havdalos). Rav Yitzchak Yosef is following in the ways of his father, not the Ashkenazim.
"Not sure how this is relevant. Natan made the claim that only the RZ care enough about other's mitzvah observance". Because it is not only the Ashkenazi RZ camp that are Zionists. ROY was certainly a Zionist and *also* did care about everyone's observance and for the state. He considered himself leader of all Sefardim at whatever level of observance. He did embrace the Heter Mechirah despite it's bediavad nature for the same reason.
"Insulting secularists is not a Ashkenazi invention." Again you are mixing up the cultures. The Sefardim did not have a signficant "secularist" movement. ROY said all kinds of unfortunate things (like hurricane Katrina affected New Orleans because Blacks don't learn Torah and have no God which). But he embraced all the sefardim at all levels of observance and in fact the Shas party at one time reached 17 seats due to a significant level of support
from non-observant mizrachim.
I was talking about Rav YITZCHAK Yosef, NOT Rav Ovadia. Rav Yitzchak Yosef said to push off Lag B'omer celebartions. I believe Rav Yitzchak is considered to be a lot more Charedi than his father was.
Even Rav Ovadia was not a RZ in the classic sense, he was in a class of his own. Most RZ followers in the style of Rav Kook are very accepting of the secular and believe in working with them. Although Rav Ovadia had Zionist leanings, he was critical of the the secular in a very in-your-face type of way and in many ways more similar to Charedi. Most of his sons and followers certainly ended up that way.
I'm not sure how the second part of your paragraph is disagreeing with me. You said that Rav Yitzchak Yosef learned from the Ashkenazim to dis secularists. I responded that it's not an Ashkenazi thing, it's a ROY thing. You sound like you're agreeing to that now?
Boyan pushed it off 4 hours than too, giving enough time.
Sephardim observe the 34th of the Omer. :-)
My, my. You're a clever boy, laddie. I know that. I still believe it was his initiative.
You can't help it.
Google it, genius. It was in 2018 and all over the news.
Ok but Chareidim don't listen, you can't deny that
Natan wrote that only the DL care about other people's shemiras hatmitzvos and ironically gave Lag b'omer as an example, which was R' Yitzhcak Yosef's idea.
Changing to normal time from summer time to reduce the Yom Kippur fast to 25 hours.
The length isn’t changed it’s always 25 hours. It’s a matter of ending it sooner on the clock as if it really changes anything
Exactly. But why then all the fuss? Because the Charedi politicians think their own narrow agenda of "stealing" a non-existent hour is more important than the benefits of summer time for the rest of the population.
There is absolutely no benefit to "Summer Time" in Israel or anywhere else. What a stupid idea, the cause of much confusion and zero gain.
Irrelevant.
"How can we approach this issue in a way that respects Halacha but is also for the benefit of society as a whole"
Keeping halacha benefits society as a whole. You are not representing the DL position accurately at all. You are talking about the left-wing gay-rights-promoting, secularist version, which accepts secular values over the Torah. Rabbi Aviner sets out the religious DL position here, and unsurprisingly it is not too different from chareidim https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/rabbi-aviner-on-chareidim
I have no idea what the article from Rav Shlomo Aviner that you reposted has to do with my comment, or the sentence that you quoted.
Rav Shlomo Aviner is a big believer in ואהבת לרעך כמוך - you will (almost) never hear a bad word from him about any segment of society, not the Charedim, or secular, left wingers, or any other sub-segment. The fact that he encourages his followers to love all Jews, including Charedim does not mean that he doesn't think that he need to approach Halacha in a way that is for the benefit of society as a whole.
As you said, keeping Halacha does (or at least should) benefit society as a whole, but only of the possek takes into consideration the needs of society as a whole. Unfortunately, many poskim from the Charedi world have failed that test and do a disservice to both society and Halacha.
You have not described how chareidi poskim have failed this test. For example, if you read the teshuvos of Rav Elyashiv, he clearly took the whole society into account. So it's just a matter of you and your "poskim" not caring about halacha or the Torah in general.
Rav Natan gave a great example in his reply. A number of years ago when Lag B'Omer fell out on Motzei Shabbat the Religious Zionist Poskim tried to get the bonfires at Meron delayed until the following afternoon, to minimize Chilul Shabbat. But the Charedi organizers of the Hilula, presumably with guidance from their poskim, refused to make it later, as it was important to them to have bonfires at the regular time, and they did not seem concerned with the Chilul Shabbat of the security people, firefighters, police officer, bus drivers and many others who would be forced to work on Shabbat.
The approach to Shmitta is another example, the Dati Leumi Rabbanim have tried to find Halachic solutions that will help Religious farmers and the economy as a whole - for example Heter Mechira, Otzar Beit Din, Hydroponic plants, plants grown outside the borders of Eretz Yisrael, etc. By and large Charedi poskim favour non-Jewish or imported produce. This solution can work for a small segment of society, but if the entire country only ate non-Jewish or imported produce, this would completely destroy the agriculture sector of the economy.
Serving in the army is of course another classic example, the Charedi poskim openly say that members of their community do not need to serve, this is possible for a small isolated community, but cannot work for society as a whole.
Universal Kollel is also favouring the needs over one community while ignoring the needs of the economy as a whole.
Shall I go on, or do you get the idea?
Not sure on what basis you say that Poskim from the Datil lemi camp "do not care about halacha", have you read halachic works by Rabbanim like Rav Mordechai Eliyahu, Rav Melamed, Rav Shlomo Aviner, Rav Yisraeli and other major Poskim from the DL community?
All your examples are wrong, with the possible exception of Lag Baomer, a chassidic event. At best you would show that chassidim are not interested in the chillul Shabbos of chilonim. Extending this to most chareidi poskim is nothing less than slander.
Shmitta is a very very bad example. Chareidim fundraise for farmers to keep shemittah, and organize otzar best din. Imported produce is a solution for everybody, not just chareidim. Just because they don't favor your pet "solution" of doing away with shemittah completely doesn't mean they don't care about society. Rabbi Melamed, on the other hand, openly says the best solution is to end agriculture in the country.
Kollel and not serving in the army is an option for everybody, not just chareidim. They are thrilled for more non -chareidim to learn in yeshiva and even open up special yeshivos for them.
So, all bad examples. Maybe your point is that chareidim favor certain policies that theoretically wouldn't work if everybody was chareidi, but then you are not making a good point, just speculating about the future.
I was talking about the left wing Modox DL, like Slifkin, who certainly don't care about halacha.
"Kollel and not serving in the army is an option for everybody"
By this do you mean that you (or your posek) would like to see a society in which 100% of men sit in Kollel and do not go to the army?Do you think that this would not have a negative impact on the economy and security of the country.
If you do NOT believe that EVERYONE should sit in Kollel, by saying that one segment of society should sit in Kollel, and a few individuals are welcome to join the - as long as it is not everyone, then this is a perfect example of caring about one segment of society, but not caring for the country as a whole.
In general when a Charedi posek makes a ruling, the underlying question is "Will this enable the segment of society that follow me to enhance their Mitzva observance?"
In general when a DL posek makes a ruling, the underlying question is "If the entire county accepted this ruling, would it be feasible on a national level".
It is a different ideological approach, the Charedi world in general see themselves as separate from mainstream society and do everything they can to distance themselves from society, the DL world regards themselves as an integral part of society and are trying to find Halachic approaches that will serve society as a whole, not just their community.
Imagine the State took Shemitta seriously. They would find solutions for their problems.
For example, the major difficulty most farmers have in keeping Shemitta is the payments on their equipment. They buy, or rent, multi-million dollar equipment, and the payments must be paid, whether they plant or not. If the deal would be structured in a way that allowed people not to pay during Shemitta, the problem would go away.
There are other solutions, but nobody looks for them. The solution that Rav Kook considered distasteful is lechatchila for them.
No bonfire in meron started at the usual time, pushed off like 3-4 hours or so for the the same reason. Other places don't have much police anyway.
That's Rabbi Dr. Natan, sir.
You can read chareidi poskim for the next 50 years, and yes, you will believe that chareidi society is beautiful, ethical, caring, loving, medakdek b'mitzovos blah blah blah.
The problem is, there is a huge gap between the theory and the practice in charediland. Just look at the gur on gur violence. A 'godol' declaring a ba'al chesed a 'mazik gomer' is defended on blogs. Hacking paywalls is not unethical. Etc Etc.
And of course, if push comes to shove, you can declare the other chap/group, a kofer/kofrim, or easier, not 're'ehu' and then do what you like to them. After all, bein odom l'chaveoiroh only applies to 're'ehu b'mitzos' right? It's quite clear charedi society only cares about their own (and matters like micro-black-dots on esrogim).
If those are the examples you have to dream up, then we must be doing great! Your little list of crimes is like the greatest advertisement for chareid society there is.
I think from the tremendous amount of outreach chareidim do to the secular, it's clear they care about all Jews.
Only a chareidi could consider gur on gur violence a 'little crime'. But, like believing breaking a payroll is ethical, anything a charedi wants to do, it can be done, by simply downplaying the prohibition or the victim,. This is a society that won't buy an esrog with a micro-black dot on, yet gur on gur violence is only 'a little crime'.
When chareidim start marrying their children into the chaps they have been mekarev, there might be something to talk about. Relatively few of those mekaruved people make it in charedi society, in fact relatively few make it at all in any society. In many cases, they remain drifters. Unless of course they are awealthy hedge fund type chaps. In that case they will be well-cared for.
Or they just just view the torah differently than Rav elyashiv..
Please provide the actual quotation from Rav Aviner.
Click the link, you will see plenty of actual quotations.
I read several lines, and he doesn't say the things you claim he does. I will not waste my time with reading irrelevant links. What you should do is provide a summary and an actual quotation.
Please provide the actual quotation from Rav Aviner.
Read the post. It is mostly actual quotations.
Answer the question. Which of his answers indicate "it is not too different from chareidim"
In general his approach is that the Charedim are mistaken, but that we should gently bring them to see the error of their ways and not through force, as in forcing a draft on them. His website seems to be down now or I could references. Not that I am a supporter as he has some pretty extreme views on women's roles as well as credible allegations of very improper behavior as well as defending the improper behavior of others (those things seem to go together).
Thank you Captain Obvious. Of course he thinks chareidim are mistaken. Otherwise he would be a chareidi Rabbi instead of a Dati rabbi.
He just thinks they're right about the most important things.
No, he thinks that his disagreements with the Charedim are very important. As you say that is why he is Zionist and not Charedi. He just believes that they are misguided in these important things and will eventually see the error of their ways. He wants them serving in the IDF but he wants them to do so willingly. If you mean that he considers that the differences don't diqualify them as religious Jews and Talmidei Chacham as the Chereidim do, yes. That is true of the RZ in general. They will quote Charedi poskim and give them deference, while Charedim generally ignore the existence of other streams or their Rabbi and consider them completely invalid no matter how erudite. If they need to quote them, then they do so anonymously. This is definitely an advantage of RZ over Charedi halachah in general. The Charedim forgo lots of good torah leaving theirs often inferior and uninformed compared to where they could be.
He thinks that being religious and Talmidei Chachamim is more important than army service and working. Which is why he says that his community identifies more with chareidim than chilonim.
The reason why most chareidim don't learn from Dati rabbis is because they get confused between the many different types of datiim, some kosher ones who are largely faithful to the Mesorah, like Rabbi Aviner, and some who are definitely not, like "Rabbi" Slifkin, the feminists, or the faigelach-supporters. And this confusion is because there is a continuum between these types, which is part and parcel of the general dati secular-embracing shittah. I think that forgoing some of the good Dati Torah is a small price to pay for the advantage of avoiding the bad. But those chareidim (and there are many) who can distinguish, do learn from the kosher Dati Rabbis.
"He thinks that being religious and Talmidei Chachamim is more important than army service and working."
What one Rabbi says is neither here nor there, but he thinks that yeshivah students need to plan a career and not learn indefinitely. So you are just mischaracterizing him. "Prominent dati leumi posek Rabbi Shlomo HaKohen Aviner Shlita addressed a statistic reporting 40% of chareidim do not work. The rav stated that due to the economic realities in Israel today, an avreich must learn a profession that permits him to support his family. “A talmid yeshiva cannot remain in yeshiva indefinitely. He must earn a living and it is not enough to say ‘Hashem will take care of things and it will be fine’”.
"The reason why most chareidim don't learn from Dati rabbis is because they get confused between the many different types of datiim". Ummm, no. You don't honor someone by lying about their shitah. We are talking about Talmidei Chachamim. They know who is who.
And you are 100% right though that the Charedim generally don't recognizing the existence of Gay orthodox Jews and don't care if they are sent to be sexually abused in the guise of "therapy". (Rav Aharon Feldman made a big step in recognizing that they exist). And yes, they disagree with those crazy feminists who falsely imagine that women can be doctors and such. I mean that is crazy talk. They need to be kept away from any type of higher education because it is obviously their daas is kal and can't handle such stuff in their little heads. Instead we should do the traditional Jewish thing that has always been done throughout Jewish history and have male obstetricians. That is the "true" tsnius.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/209164/rav-aviner-avreichim-must-earn-a-living.html
I feel like I should clarify one thing:
This essay basically gives over the impression that chareidim are 'selfish' while the more classic approach is to be more communal and responsible. I'm not sure this was on purpose, but this comes off as great PR against chareidim. So let me clarify our position.
Anyone aware of philosophy knows about the paradox between self and community. Someone who brushes his teeth 2x daily even when he's feeling lazy (I think I used this example in a previous comment on the last post), has a better chance of being a good building block to benefit society. Someone who marries and takes care of his wife and kids is generally a better person who can give more to the community. Of course practically there is a lot of variance and nuance, which means a lot of exceptions, but as a general rule, these are fair statements. Brushing teeth isn't "selfish" though this activity technically maximizes the self, because this is actually enabling a better giver. If indeed the teeth brusher is just trying to live healthier just in order to consume more net food over his lifetime, that truly is selfish. But if he is a giving person, and he's brushing his teeth as a responsibility to his family and community to be a healthier person to be able to give more, this "self promoting" act is actually quite selfless.
Chareidim believe that torah learning, besides being the best self discipline ever, fills the world up with Hashem and His influence. (Man has the unique ability to ignore Him and through thinking and caring about Him and following His laws, we fill the void of a world where some *billions* never even heard of Him.) All good in this world comes from His influence, which man controls to a large extent. Call it mysticism, we call it coming and bringing the world closer to God. This is not selfish. At all.
That all being said, I certainly agree that many chareidim can use serious help in their bein adam lchaveiro, as rigorous self focus can and for many does lead to a certain selfishness as they ignore the larger goal by focusing on the day to day details of avoda. But that is a problem with individuals, not with the system, or I guess as any system will have these sorts of issues in implementation.
There's two problems with what you said. One is that charedim *do not believe* that Torah replaces any hishtadlus other than serving in the IDF. It doesn't replace hishtadlus for health. It doesn't replace military protection of charedi towns. Second is that as Michael Sedley pointed out, charedim are not really focused in filling the non-charedi world with Hashem and his influence, especially when it conflicts with charedi interests.
Your first point has to do with אפשר לעשות ע'י אחרים again. We can rehash what I responded last time (what you decided was retorting to other equally problematic arguments: not true) but not sure if you're interested.
As for the second point, can you clarify? We'd be more than overjoyed if anyone else in the world joined us in our mission of being מרבה כבוד שמים. I promise. Maybe I didn't understand you correctly? We don't have other "interests"
It doesn't replace hishtadlus. It complements hishtadlus. And it's not just the IDF. It's a fact that chareidim do less hishtadlus for themselves so that they can study Torah. It's a fact that most Hatzalah members are not the biggest masmidim (of course there may be exceptions). The idea is that Torah study is the most important job there is, especially in today's secularist environment.
Why are virtually all the kiruv orgs Charedi?
Because the DL Judaism of shatnez and kilaim is not attractive. Because the DL belief that we are living in the Messianic times doesn't make sense and doesn't provide the necessary motivation for the religious
observance since כל העדה כולם קדושים regardless.
Probably because there is good money to be had. If Rabbi X is mekarev the right guys, his kids can be in kollel for life. It's obviously done a little more subteler than that, but some chareidi kiruv organisations are run as businesses (tax exempt too) with their high grade staff on great salaries.
Wow! You really are creative! Let me extend this by saying you comment here because you get paid 100 bucks per comment by some shell rationalist advocacy group!
This is just not true. Do you even have any proof for such a claim? I know multiple people who have worked and do work in kiruv instistutions/Yeshivas.
In short, almost all of them have a second job.
NCSY?
Were mainly speaking about israeli society
" Someone who brushes his teeth 2x daily..."
...is very selfish if he's currently on shift in an ER during a crisis, or a combat soldier in middle of an operation.
"the paradox between self and community"
It's not a paradox. It's a dilemma.
"That all being said, I certainly agree that many chareidim can use serious help in their bein adam lchaveiro,That all being said, I certainly agree that many chareidim can use serious help in their bein adam lchaveiro,"
But didn't a RY just referred to such sentiments as הבל הבלים?
He said he dosent agree with Rav Landau if i remember correctly
"is very selfish if he's currently on shift in an ER during a crisis, or a combat soldier in middle of an operation."
you seem to have missed my point. i wasn't saying people should be brushing their teeth in the ER. but the dr wwho brushes his teeth will often be a better dr. ow during war we can have a discussion about what to do, but that doesn't change what our attitude in life should be
if we have the whole story, i disagree with that RY's approach
And btw it's a paradox, not a dilemma. The more one is selfless the better self he is and the more selfish the worse self he is
I agree , it certainly comes across as DL are (as a group) selfless and Chareidim are (as a group) selfish.
It stems. I believe from a lack of understanding of chariedi hashkafa, which has somehow resulted in a conclusion that chareidim don't actually care, and anytime they say they do its just an excuse (lie). Instead of being a genuine disagreement in hashkafa .
Right.
But I would have to add that this problem actually rests (partly) on chareidi shoulders as well. Many chareidim are not aware of the bigger picture and are actually selfish die to their personal avoda. No one who is a gadol or a leader thinks they but there are some of the masses that are like this. We do need to improve.
In essence what I'm saying is is that the issue is not only with outsiders who lack understanding of the hashkafa, but also with insiders who also lack this proper understanding.
But as I said, this is a side effect of a culture and its population, not of the core ideology. We need to distinguish the two.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ...
TCHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Ok, time for the next post. All the fights on this one are basically all died out.
I didn't see Rabbi Lichtenstein's article beyond your quote, but it sounds totally out to lunch. (ן also find it hypocritical for people to rely on a selective curation of agadata quotes, while refusing to allow the other side the same privilege. When coupled with the Kabbalistic concept of נהמא דכיסופא, the hypocrisy screams.)
A halachic sevara or rule stands by itself. You cannot decide 'what Torah is all about' and determine Halacha based on that. If indeed this was a מצוה שאפשר לעשות ע"י אחרים, the Halacha of Bitul Torah would trump the Army service.
I don't know that it is relevant to this specific case, because the obligation to serve in the Army is not to save lives.
If we were discussing the Mitzvah of saving lives and helping others, it is certainly a מצוה שאפשר לעשות ע"י אחרים, and Limud Hatorah comes first. Morality follows Halacha, not the other way around.
So if you're stuck on a desert island after a plane crash, and you can either eat shellfish or your dead co-passengers, you'd eat your dead co-passengers?
https://etzion.org.il/en/philosophy/issues-jewish-thought/issues-mussar-and-faith/natural-morality
Yes, just because you reject halacha doesn't mean we should.
That's actually a solid point. The question is where to draw the line tho. Not an easy answer at all. But I contend that if we need to revamp the entire yeshivos system with no guarantee that the void can be filled, that's a good place to draw the line
And yes we would need daas Torah to make this decision
There is a Halcha of מאכילין אותו הקל הקל, and if that demands I overcome my natural squeamishness and eat humans instead of shellfish, פיקוח נפש trumps all.
Who would pasken any differently?
Reb Yaakov zt'l paskens differently. Somewhere in emes lyaakov on Navi. I can try to find it. There are other sources as well
Or that the main problem of necrophilia would be motzei zera levatalah. A prominent acharon (I forget who) holds that the prohibition of walking around naked precedes the Torah, that it's basic normal human behavior.
The דור רביעי was not a “prominent acharon”.
I hope you don't volunteer for the chevra kadisha . . .
If the Halacha is different, the issue is an academic Halachic one, not personal morality vs. Torah. Nothing trumps Torah.
Slifkin's link is to someone with little access to primary sources. It is scholarly for armchair scholars, those who don't like investing effort into understanding things and knowing them thoroughly. Even from a secular standpoint, they are sorely lacking. They don't even quote Philo on the subject.
Reb yàakov was coming from the fact that a human can't morally eat another human.
Until I see it myself, I will not believe it. It makes no sense at all.
Citing "Torah" is an easy way to sound devout and pure in your religious observance. But in reality it says nothing concrete.
I am struggling to find something concrete in your comment, but failing.
Perhaps citing 'concrete' was sufficient.
Only your Roshei yeshiva are devout and dedicated to fully understand דברי תורה! Fine for you but not everyone agrees with you.
Gross. And the poskim rule you wrong.
It is certainly gross. But it is no different to your behavior if there were no shellfish to be found. If you were stuck in a desert with nothing but the body of your spouse, would you starve to death?
We are talking about extenuating circumstances here.
I have yet to hear of a psak that says differently. If there is, I will change my mind accordingly.
The שרידי אש iirc has a teshuva on it. I'll try to find it.
Your poskim.
Again your Poskim,the ones that think the world is flat.
Who are you responding to exactly?
I don't understand how the logic of "if there are others to do the mitzva, keep learning" could possibly apply in the case of soldiers fighting to protect the country, for a couple of reasons.
First, this soldier whom you are letting to the mitzvah while you learn is also protecting YOU. Why should he precede you in the mitzvah to protect you? Do you think chazal meant to apply this principle of "if there are others" even that far? This attitude sounds a lot like the guy who lets the other guy do all the work helping load/unload his animal while he, the owner, stands by and says, God gave him the mitzvah, not me. Chazal say that in such a case the mitzvah no longer applies. The same logic should apply here.
Secondly, the soldier who is fighting while you learn also needs your chessed of your participation. He's risking his life for you and wants you to take a turn so he can rest, or get your help, or at least receive the moral support of knowing that the people he's fighting for stand with him. If you fight alongside him you could save his life. The principle of "if there are others" no longer makes sense in a case where those others, by doing the mitzvah, are making a great sacrifice or taking a great risk that would be alleviated by your help. The demand for this particular chessed for that soldier cannot be fulfilled by that soldier. It needs you.
As for your analogy of the guy standing on the side doing nothing, that only means anything if you believe lomdei torah are doing nothing.
To your second "argument," again if you can prove that the yeshivos can continue their mission by changing their whole tune to help the war effort, by all means
You think that the Halakhah is that if the owner of the animal decides to sit and learn Torah while the passerby loads/unloads it, the passerby remains obligated? I'd like to see a source for that.
I don't know what mission you're talking about (you can point me to a comment that I might not have read), but as far as I know God gave the same mission, Torah and Halakhah, to all Jews.
"You think that the Halakhah is that if the owner of the animal decides to sit and learn Torah while the passerby loads/unloads it, the passerby remains obligated?"
no. but are you allowed to watch a clean movie in america while soldiers are fighting on the front lines there?
the mission i'm referring to is one of becoming a talmid chochom which is an entire life's work. not everyone is מחוייב to do this, but כלל ישראל needs some who give up their entire lives to learning כל התורה כולה אליבא דהלכתא. see igros moshe YD 4 siman 36 at length. this is the model the yeshivos try to enable, and no other system does or can enable this model
Since Halacha is a system that deals in quantities and limits, and time-frames, I'd like to know the shiur [in terms of effort, danger, time, cost etc] for "someone else can do it".
Up to what point can the Torah-learner say "someone else can serve in the army", and for that matter "someone else can provide for me financially" or "someone else can take care of our elderly parents?". Does the someone else need to be a specific person? or just the general population ["there must be somebody who can get killed in Gaza instead of me"]
Where do you draw the line?
This is not a theoretical question as the proportion of full time learners becomes an increasingly large part of the population
since you're asking a very pointed question (thanks for that), i need to make sure we don't get away from the main point. the first thing, regarding the state, we're all thrilled that it exists and that we can keep all the many mitzvos that come along with it - not to mention the ability to connect with Hashem that is only possible here in our home, but at the same time we would not give up our growth in torah for all of these "maalos" (i put that in quotes because really they are much more than that, but at the same time, in this context, that is how they are to be treated in the hierarchy of things). while we are here, we truly, truly appreciate it, and we will use it to boost our focus of torah. but letting go of that focus, in our view, will be more damaging.
now, the facts are that the chareidim have won. we have the numbers to vote for exemptions and we got'm.
i understand that this has some horrible sounding ramifications. it means we "don't care about anything but ourselves." we are living in this country and are not willing to fight for it. we're just leeches. but hey - guess what? that was the antisemitic rhetoric for our entire existence! we were always hated because we were leeches. we've always lived in other countries while we really never cared about them. we never joined their armies (unless we were forced, which was considered a terrible tragedy), we never became "them." and it bothered our hosts to no end. i hate to say it, and i i say this hoping you can take this in context, but this isn't quite so different. this is what happens when the mission is olam haba and torah, not olam hazeh. we don't get sucked up in the noise of the world and all of its screaming "hishtadlus." we simply do what He asks, and He in turn takes care of the menial stuff. that is chareidi ideology. (again, it's not actually like other countries, but in the scale of importance to our torah learning, it is)
it may sound selfish, but it really just is a different value system. the call to fight in the army is the same as the call to fight in the american army. saving israel is simply not something worth giving up yiddishkeit for. when our numbers are really needed, hopefully the army will have no choice but to make real accommodations on our terms, limiting the spiritual damage.
that all being said, there are real problems in the chareidi community that need to be fixed. we are too insular, too selfish and too not caring. not everyone learning appreciates what they are doing - proof: they would be learning a whole lot better if they did! their shmoneh esreis would be a lot more meaningful if they did! facts are, we need to do teshuva, majorly, but the issue isn't the system. it is that we are a part of this system and not maximizing it.
"saving Israel is not worth the price." So you accept others paying the price instead. My boys have to risk their lives for yours, but yours will not risk their lives for mine. Honestly, anyone who feels that way should just leave Israel.
You're mixing emotions with facts. I can respond that if there would be a gezeira against torah my sons would fight and risk their lives while yours would not. So you should leave Israel. But that's not a fair statement. We have different priorities which means we will fight for different things.
If there was a gezera against Torah, your sons would leave and learn elsewhere.
No they would not. They would discover the halochoh that you can be yotze talmud torah with krias shemah (which is my peshat as to why bitul torah is missing from al cheit, but I digress), and leave it at that. They would not risk their lives for talmud torah, pikuach nefesh after all (to avoid misunderstandings, I am not talking about shemiras hamitvos).
The fact that antisemites falsely accused Jews of being leeches etc. does not mean that criticism of charedim is ipso facto also false.
Surely that is true. But your taina is the exact same taina! ("...anyone who feels that way should just leave israel")
Hashem didn't ask that there be 150,000 people in yeshiva. And you certainly don't need anything remotely close to that number to "preserve Torah."
First, a few side points:
1. Gone is the era where we have one person who knows everything. We are a really, really, unprecedentedly poor generation. While we now have more people technically learning, we are mostly bearing the burden together. 50+ of us create one reb moshe feinstein. Spread throughout 50+ of us we get a collective baki in OC, YD, CM, EH, kodshim, zeraim and taharos.
2. Besides that , Hashem is super thrilled that we have so many in the beis medrash. Especially since outside the beis medrash everything changed. Today's baalabos simply isn't learning the 9 hrs the Rambam talks about. The bnei beis midrash are netting like 12 hours as day for the most part. So yes, now more than ever this is what we need to keep the emes alive.
3. Also, not sure where you got the number 150k. I would think it's more like 45k. But I wouldn't die on this hill.
4. Lastly, bachurim are a different story. Every bachur (who grows up with the chareidi mindset of chashivus for torah) should be given the opportunity to learn with his undivided attention, for a variety of reasons.
But these are side points. The most important question for you, when we get down to it, is how exactly do you propose we implement this change you guys are asking for? By taking away the draft exemption law? How would that look practically? This is probably the most important thing for you to clarify if we're going to have a real conversation and not just complaints about our methods.
The number of 150K seems about right.
See here:
https://www.idi.org.il/media/17298/statistical-report-on-ultra-orthodox-society-in-israel-2021-new.pdf
First of all I appreciate the detail and respectful tone of your response, and your honesty.
I would like to share a few points:
1- First of all, you write "the facts are that the chareidim have won. we have the numbers to vote for exemptions and we got'm."
That might be true, and certainly the Chareidi riots that take place every time there is talk of changing the system have been effective. But the fact that your community *can* do something, doesn't make it right. I would claim that by your community not serving, you are causing me direct and measurable harm. (I would also claim that you are causing your own community harm, as well, but that is a separate issue). If every community did nothing but stand up for their right to do whatever they want, we would be living in a very unpleasant place.
2- I understand your need/desire to live according to Chareidi values. In the US, it's easy (or easier)..it's the land of live and let live. As long as American Chareidim can figure out how to pay for their "lifestyle" of learning and not working, they bother no one.
In Israel it's different...both because of the army, and the size of the Chareidi population relative to the size of the overall population and economy. Chareidi non-participation has major consequences on the population as a whole.
3- I respect the importance of the Chareidi lifestyle and belief system to the average Chareidi (even if I disagree that it reflects Ratzon Hashem). Nevertheless, as sincerely held your beliefs are (we're talking mainly about the belief of the primacy of Torah study, and how it trounces just about anything else), you can't argue that everyone else should give up something (in this case it could even be their lives..in the current war) to support those beliefs. Let's say a group of "super-Nachmanim" would gradually appear (and grow over the years), believing that they need to spend 6 months a year in Uman. During that time, they of course wouldn't work, wouldn't serve in the army, and they would expect the government to support their families. Would we be obligated to do so just because of their sincerely held beliefs?
i have a better way to bring out the point:
do you think klal yisroel needs to have some people that are talmidei chachamim who do nothing but learn? you can make the number of people as small as you wish, say 10 people. all of klal yisroel needs 10 batlanim who don't contribute to society or to the army; all they do is master the torah. is that something you think is needed?
if yes, those 10 people, are they somehow less than everyone else because they aren't caring enough about society? (i'd add to this, what about the kohanim in the beis hamikdash who were living off terumah and handouts? but we can leave this aside for now) or, quite the opposite, these are the elite who are giving up all pleasures of the world to be able to lead klal yisroel in torah. and we all appreciate that we have them and even support and encourage them in their endeavor as they lead this most selfless life possible. because of that we happily remove all menial tasks and split them up amongst ourselves.
i understand that this is only for those elite few and is not for just anybody and everybody who claims to be chareidi. which is why the numbers matter, especially when many of those numbers aren't quite so single mindedly focused on torah and avoda. but this is the starting point of we are going to discuss this matter properly and we can take it from here
No, we don't need anyone who does nothing at all apart from learn. What are they contributing? We need Torah scholars and teachers who will enrich knowledge for the Jewish People. Just like the Kohanim were serving in the Beis HaMikdash. Look at the lashon of Rambam.
first of all, ChanaRachel, we are davening that Hashem should help us not need to cry any longer. what you're going through with your family and community is so distant to me but your comments help me keep things a bit more real. i would love tehilim names. if you'd rather send privately, you can send to my email, davidschulmannn@gmail.com. (of course no pressure at all)
now, to your points, i can respond line by line, but i think it all boils down to one point, so i'll just make my (the chareidi) case: we both agree that there are many issues with chareidi culture, the selfishness it can lead to for one, but as a whole, how important is it that we have a group of people learning torah, that actually need to be exempt from the army? this discussion, for the most part, is highly correlated to the numbers, and as the numbers of chareidim grow and grow, the issues begin. but let's start simple: do we need *any* young people to sit and learn and not go to the army?
idk where you stand on this, but the chareidi outlook is that we absolutely *need* at least a fair amount. this is for two reasons. (1) there is a chiyuv on klal yisroel to have chachmei torah, people that give up their entire lives to master shas and poskim. this premise is spelled out most clearly, to my knowledge, in igros moshe YD v4 siman 36. reb moshe makes the case that we need a group of people that can lead the nation in torah. these people are actually not supposed to indulge in any worldly pleasures. on them is the mishna of פת במלח תאכל and they are not to be distracted by parnassa or other issues. reb moshe makes the case that even just the amount of people who are *eligible* to become this level of torah scholar is quite low. only those who (a) appreciate torah and (b) know what it means to reach the depths of the sugya and understand its beauty are able to be a part of this. to those whom torah is not the ultimate value, it is not nogea. so we're left with the few bnei yeshiva, and there simply aren't enough today.
as far as reb moshe's chiyuv is concerned, two things are different in our discussion from what he is discussing in his teshuva. (a) when reb moshe said this, torah was not thriving like it is today. now there truly are plenty of us. (b) reb moshe was dealing with individuals going to college and spending extra money on trips, not on communal responsibilities like the army or the economy. so how does this play out today? before we get to that, there is a second thing.
(2) the purpose of this world is to develop a personal connection with Hashem so that we can build our olam haba (נהנין מזיו השכינה is the fruit of this relationship). while this may seem a bit selfish, it actually isn't. this is a philosophical point, but every step of living in this world pulls us away from that relationship. our bodies want to indulge. we have to fix ourselves to become loftier, greater, better people and not just live by our whims. this is the ultimate sacrifice. and even if it seems that we are doing it to 'maximize' pleasure, first of all, ultimately we are to shed even that and do it just because Hashem wants it, not us, but even until we get there, this is just an incentive to live by Another's will *as opposed* to our own. it is only selfish in a very minute way (and for that matter, joining the army because you will feel like a more noble person can also be called selfish). the facts are that living a completely selfless life, even if we use the incentive of ultimate good to inspire ourselves, is not selfishness. giving up one's life to halacha and torah is an extremely hard life to live. this is the life which the chareidi culture ultimately strives to create. the way this works though is a bit complex, but it starts with torah. through learning torah for real, we connect to His will and eventually bridge this toward this relationship with Him. this last point would need a whole background to really explain, and we can email if you're interested, but the point is that this building of people who care of nothing other than Hashem in a real way, is only possible to be facilitated in a beis midrash. it is for these reasons that we hold torah learning as the ultimate value.
all of your points boil down to, "are the chareidim right?" if we are, this value is not something to compromised. if we aren't, then we indeed are no different than the super-Nachmanim you mentioned. and yes, israel is very different than other countries, but even in israel, this is the value we care about. and yes being the winner is not necessarily good, unless the winner's values are correct.
how this plays out practically? as numbers grow this becomes a real issue. the chareidim will need to make changes without compromising the system. how? i'd love to hear ideas!
sorry that was really long, and i barely scratched the surface...
Hi Shulman, I see you have a very peculiar way of spelling your last name in your email address. How do you spell your first name? דוד™?
" saving israel is simply not something worth giving up yiddishkeit for. saving israel is simply not something worth giving up yiddishkeit for."
What would happen to "yiddishkeit" if Israel were not saved? And since when is going to the army "giving up yiddishkeit"?
In order to answer, I need to clarify what you would propose be done to change the way things are. Eliminate the draft exemption for yeshiva students? See my question for Natan above
Even though I wouldn't phrase it as such I believe there is legitimacy to the question, in what scenario will the Charedim (as a whole) decide go to war / join the army?
Each question is dealt with separately, the money one for example, is dependent on the individual, what is sustainable and how much are they willing to sacrifice. There is no rule. It is not Assur to work.
I don't get the old people one.
And there must be someone who can die... its just plain hurtful if you think that is the attitude. This idea that chareidim don't care about people dying is a slanderous lie.
Thanks for your responses.
If it is not Assur to go to work, which is for the benefit of mainly the individual himself, and is a long term commitment, why should it be Assur to go to the army, which is a shorter term interruption, and for the sake of the Klal?
Regarding the "old people", I'll explain. In almost every family there will generally be at least one elderly relative who requires care. Parts of the care are often done by paid caregivers, but much of the care generally still falls on the family...for example taking shifts at the hospital so the elderly relative won't be left alone. How does "exempt if someone else can do it" play out in such a situation? Does learning trump Kibud Horim- the sons/grandsons who are learning don't take shifts at the hospital? Or maybe they do..
I'm interested in understanding what if any situations justify a [temporary/complete or partial] break from learning, and then applying it to army service as well..
If we are to speak strictly halachically ,on the topic of "can be done by others'(I dont necessarily believe this is the core reason charedim dont go to the army). There is a fundamental difference between the army and the other 2 examples you gave.
Kibud av veim is something that ,by definition, cannot fall on someone else I have the responsibility to honor my parents and only I can do that mitzvah. A sibling cannot honor a parent for another sibling.
Similarly with livelihood , each person has a responsibility to ensure his own livelihood , I cannot make someone else responsible for my livelihood. If that responsibility is taken care of by other means, being supportive parents , trusts , or just being happy living an incredibly basic life there is nothing wrong with that.I am not foregoing that responsibility. Point being responsibility is on each individual .It cant be done by others specifically because it is personal.(I hope this comes across clearly)
As for the Army , I have no clear answer to when. But, as I said above, the question is legitimate , and I dont believe the answer is never.
The main issue I have with this blog and many of its commentators , is not the opposition to chareidi ideologies, nor the questions/challenges. (In many cases they are most definitely valid and difficult questions.) I take issue with the resulting conclusions (charedim dont care selfish etc). Just because one does not know why something is , does not mean you do not know why something is not.
Thank you for being able to have a civil conversation.Even with opposing views.
Thank you as well for the civility.
..and I think your answer at least defines the basis of our differences, even if it doesn't resolve them.
For the Dati Leumi community, army service, responsibility to the Jewish people, comes before even Kibbud Horim & Parnassa, because we believe that there is really no one else who can fight instead of us.
Here is a very brief Tshuva written by Rav Cherlow (I assume religiously way to the left for you), but read his logic..that is what we believe. He discusses an only child who is the primary care coordinator for his parent. The son asks, if called to miluim, should he go, or stay back to take care of his parent:
https://ad120.tzohar.org.il/faq/%d7%94%d7%90%d7%9d-%d7%9e%d7%95%d7%aa%d7%a8-%d7%9c%d7%94%d7%aa%d7%97%d7%9e%d7%a7-%d7%9e%d7%92%d7%99%d7%95%d7%a1-%d7%9b%d7%93%d7%99-%d7%9c%d7%94%d7%a7%d7%9c-%d7%a2%d7%9c-%d7%94%d7%95%d7%a8%d7%94-%d7%97/
I doubt we'll agree, but at least we know what we disagree on, and next time you pass a Chayyal in uniform walking down the street, at least buy him a falafel
These same questions can be asked from non-chareidim as well. The difference is that chareidim make a huge oversized contribution to the spiritual welfare of the country, which is the most important contribution.
Just remember we are talking about
פיקוח נפש. End of discussion of and evaluation about mitzvot. Ridiculous
and חוצפה when soldiers are dying. Get yourself to Tzahal and stop pretzel bending.
>"BANana added that this is an example of how we are coming from two totally different universes.
I couldn’t agree more with the latter sentiment. But allow me to explain why, although he thinks that his universe is the one of Torah, I think it’s the exact opposite. My response is based on the writings of Rav Aharon Lichtenstein, ztz”l, which I think are representative on this topic for the dati-leumi perspective in general (and indeed of Chazal, and in fact of everyone until the modern phenomenon of charedi Judaism - and even then, perhaps until the late-20th century permutation of it)."
I'd like to suggest a different framing here.
You view this through the perspective of Rationalism vs. Mysticism. This split in worldviews goes back to medieval times, reaching its peak with the Maimonidean controversies, and the split between philosophy and Kabbalah.
I'd like to suggest a different framing: Biblical vs Talmudic. Early Zionists explicitly talked about "negation of the Diaspora", meaning, the last 1800 years (from the failed bar kochba rebellion) until their time, and a return to Tanakh. Rav Kook and his religious Zionist followers similarly explicitly talked about a return to Torat Eretz Yisrael. Essentially, negating aspects of the Talmud Bavli that didn't fit being a sovereign state.
In contrast, the Talmud consistently de-emphasizes the military aspects of Tanakh, and rabbinizes the figures there (see one example of this in my latest post: https://www.ezrabrand.com/p/one-day-david-went-falcon-hunting) . The supreme ideal for Chazal was learning Torah, which nowadays would be called "ivory tower", and they were indeed extremely insular, and harshly denigrate amei ha'aretz.
Yes, that's certainly another aspect of the difference.
Oh, I love this exchange! I took a screen shot before Natan deletes it.
Exactly. When we call him a kofer, it's not just a slur. It's because he is really a kofer, as we see in this exchange. And that is where his entire worldview is coming from.
And another point.
You are conceding that you are the מוציא, classical Judaism did not accept the new Jew of Zionism. Yet you still try and claim, based on external factors and tiny nuances, that Charedism is the innovation.
No, I never conceded any such thing. What I said was that post-churban Judaism never had to deal with sovereignty and its associated responsibilities.
So Shas Bavli could deal with the Industrial Revolution, galus under Moslems and Christians, Western liberalism, as well as fundamentalist cultists, but when it comes to a State of Israel, no more Shas Bavli.
Isn't that the best argument against a State of Israel?
Mr. Brand, I must thank you. You're the best thing that ever happened to RJ. Until now, Natan's game was to say, "We're the real Jews. The way Chazal wanted Jews to be. And were not kofrim. The Charedim are the impostors."
Along comes Ezra Brand and says, "Charedim are the golus, insulated Jews who follow in the footsteps of Chazal. But we're kofrim and don't believe in Chazal. We believe in 'ancient Judaism'." To which Natan responds, "You're right!"
In a few short lines, you said everything that the Charedim on this blog have been saying all these years. And Natan agreed to you! I think we can all close up shop now.
"In contrast, the Talmud consistently de-emphasizes the military aspects of Tanakh, and rabbinizes the figures there"
I think this the right moment to mention R Lichtenstein's argument that while Chazal describe biblical warriors like David as learning Torah, they do not contradict the language of Tanach that these figures also fought wars. Thus, the picture that emerges from Chazal is that these figures both fought wars and learned Torah. Unsurprisingly R Lichtenstein led an institution whose students both fight wars and learn Torah, and it seems like an approach all communities should follow.
Correct, he says that the hesder model is straight from Tanach al pi Chazal.
So basically, we have to rethink our acceptance of Talmud Bavli and all generations that accepted it and used it as the final authority in order to accept your worldview.
I don't know how anyone could have made a better argument against your opinion than that. To accept Lichtenstein's opinion, we would have to give up Judaism as we know it. Great. I wonder what his father in law would have said to that.
I just wanted to clarify here: I realize now that "negating" isn't precise. A better term would be "moderating" it, in the sense of taking into account a broader range of traditional sources, including Tanakh, Talmud Yerushalmi, Midrashim, Kabbalah, etc, with an emphasis on Eretz Yisrael and sovereignty.
In the same way that Chazal in their time heavily emphasized the aspect of Torah study, because militarism and sovereignty were less relevant, and even dangerous, taking into account all the failed rebellions against Rome, and general Roman antisemitism and heavy-handedness, or what would properly be called "colonialism" nowadays. (That term is of course loaded nowadays, and often misused and abused for political reasons, but is in fact a proper historical description of how Rome ruled, and "colony" is in fact a Latin term)
Very nice, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle. NS already agreed to your original version - which IS outright kefirah in Chazal - and the readers (critics) of this blog are more interested in what HE thinks..
It's also no coincidence that the development of Torah sheba'al peh coincided to a large extent with the destruction of the Second Temple, as has been noted by many.
How did Rav Kook negate aspects of bavli?
Mostly it's not framed as "negating" per se, but as being "complementary", including elements of "prophecy. See an overview at Hebrew Wikipedia:
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%AA_%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%A5_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C_(%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%98%D7%AA_%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%93)
In practice, it means emphasizing Eretz Yisrael and sovereignty.
For an instance where it explicitly negates the Bavli in favor of Yerushalmi, see this quote from R' Kook, in an article by Dr. Aviad Hacohen:
בהלכות התלויות בארץ הירושלמי עיקר, דנשנה בארץ ישראל שההלכות נוהגות למעשה
https://etzion.org.il/he/philosophy/great-thinkers/rav-kook/%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%AA-%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%A5-%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C-%D7%91%D7%91%D7%99%D7%AA-%D7%9E%D7%93%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%95-%D7%A9%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%99%D7%94-%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%A7
man ur 2 much about hate. you gotta focus on ur inner peace. make piece with the demons inside you. u aint goin anywer in life if u let them torment u. i dont no ur history but man u got bagage. let bygones be bygones. i luv my hebrew brothers. piece to u all
IM put out a very clear post explaining the Charedi position vis-a-vis learning and serving in the army.
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/misleibeled
Here is a post I wrote on the subject: https://open.substack.com/pub/daastorah/p/is-the-torah-divine-298
It is similar to your framing, but yours adds in a point about selfishness. I don't agree that Chareidim are selfish at all, it merely stems from the opinion that Torah learning is the most selfless thing can be done. In contrast, someone Dati would categorize someone only focusing on learning as being selfish because he is only focusing on his own improvement.
Kvod harav, i agree with most of your points, but in a note for unity: why would we have to choose between the two? We do need people who learn, and remind the rest of the nation the importance of limmud torah, and it goes without saying that there is no stronger mitzvah than saving jewish lives (here, as part of the army). Couldn't we think of ways to integrate these two parts of the nation together? The midrash says that when Yehoshua went to battle, a 3rd of the army were fighters, a third were handling logistics, and a third praying. We could certainly try to replicate that to some extent and get the different fringes of the nation together.
Something of an “apples and oranges” fallacy at work. Also, maybe a “time and place” issue. If Torah study is most important, certainly it comes in 2nd place if you have to stop to give someone the Heimlich Maneuver.! There is a time and a place…. And saying Torah study is how the world keeps going is a non-falsifiable assertion fallacy. Can’t make heads or tails of its truth content. The quintessence of how all religions operate….probably not worth arguing over as a result. Can’t be probed further…
The “apples and oranges” fallacy is also at work. Killing an enemy before he kills you is one kind of activity, Torah study another kind. Too unalike to compare. Like trying to compare Crime and Punishment by Dostoevsky with a pamphlet from your doctor on HIV. Sure, they’re both written material, but…
And yet the Charedi world excels in terms of communal responsibility within their own communities, with chesed and kindness.
An interesting issue here is to what extent the Charedi worldview is an adaptation to Diasporic Judaism, and classical and national Zionist perspectives are simply the return to a Judaism compatible with sovereignty. For me the rabbinic aversion to dead penalty and the extreme concern for hostages are scars remaining in Judaisms from a long non sovereign period. Learned helplessness.
it's easy to take Jew out of Galut, but taking galut out of the Jew...
Exactly, well-said
Agreed. The problem is hareidim still go with this outdated rabbinic stuff like the Babylonian Talmud. They need to stop with this rabbinical Judaism and return to Biblical Judaism.
אחים היקרים
שמה שבר רשפי קשת מגן וחרב ומלחמה סלה
תהילים עו
Is this a closed forum, open only to Jews residing in the Land of Israel? I reside in Massachusetts - nobody lives here except Bubby and Zaidy!?
From ‘hoots l’oretz’ (Bavel) you sound - not like talmidim of Hillel and Shammai - but talmidim of Maimonides, who words are not to be disobeyed or another posek as long as the loyalty to the ‘nation’ , I. E., צה״ל is unquestioned , just obedience to ‘rationalism’ is all that is necessary. Please rationalize Tehilim 76.
there is a dictum in the Talmud אין סומלים אל הנס, We do not rely on miracles. If a hamas terrorist comes to rape your daughter, the only way to stop it is to shoot the bastard and kill him before he gets close to your daughter. That is a physical fact. If you do not do that, then the blood is on your head (for being foolish).
True!