Hi Slifkin. When we call you a kofer, it's not just a slogan or catchphrase the way you bandy about the kabbalistic phrase "Nahama d'kisufa". It's real and important. Throughout your writings, you are kofer in many fundamentals of Judaism such as prayer, hashgacha klalis, hashgacha pratis, schar v'onesh, miracles, the truth of the Torah. And this informs your entire worldview, which has nothing to do with rationalism, or the Rambam, or Zionism, or Dati Leumi, but is exclusively your rejection of Judaism. Period.
This discredits all your opinions on the matter. Your opinions on chareidim serving, or anything else pertaining to chareidim, or to Dati leumi, or to Judaism, are no more relevant than the pope's.
The Dati Leumi poskim who hold that there is an obligation for yeshiva students to serve are not coming from the same worldview as you, so we don't call them kofrim. We simply disagree with them. We hold that Torah study is an overriding *communal* responsibility, especially in today's secularist environment, that people like you are responsible for. That doesn't mean we can't be grateful for the soldiers that serve. We just realize that Torah is even more important, which is classical Judaism.
Hey what about my beliefs that the universe is billions of years old and that Chazal were sometimes mistaken about the natural world? How come you left those out?
He is a kal da'as, he doesn't think much about his opinions, he doesn't treat his opinions seriously, he doesn't research his facts, he doesn't care for 'right and wrong'. That's why airy snarky remarks are enough for him, that's why he can never quote a primary source, and that's why he never manages to understand those who disagree with him.
Because there's no way to know the age of the universe, if you don't know how it started. All scientists can say is, that assuming everything always was the same as it is today (i.e. all laws of physics etc.), then the universe is x years old. Now they assume everything was the same since the beginning, because why would they assume otherwise.
Now you can argue that they are indeed idiots, because since they admittedly have no idea how it all started, they have no right to make assumptions.
You may be right, Hashkafic halfway house (what is that a reference to?), but I don't think this type of pointing out will get you anywhere. Rabbi Slifkin doesn't think he is a heretic and neither do his followers. What you can do is point out where they are wrong. And you may see that it's not as clear. You still may be correct in your approach. I think Haredim are closer to the truth. But I think the other side has some good points and we can all learn by coming together.
For example, you may be correct that God is running the world, but we still do our Hishtadlut. It may be true that we only do that when it isn't at the expense of our Avodah, and that this world looks dark to test us and we should be having more trust in God, but where to draw that line is difficult. It depends on the person and the situation and the time and the factors.
Also, although the Torah is the most important thing, not everyone can or even should be studying all day. There are twelve Shebatim with different roles. So the Haredi perspective is a good way to be Shebet Levi or Issachar, but all those who need to work and live more in this world for all kinds of circumstances in their lives, they need to live in the world in a more practical way. What about someone who is taken by science. Haredim's answers aren't always practical, even if they are correct. We need to be able to engage with all types. All this kind of comment does is distance people.
Yo my man Shemesh, I agree with most of your comment. We can't have kollel for all, all the time, and there is much to improve in chareidi society. Criticism is important. But not from people who reject our core values.
The reason for my comment is because it is important to point out that Slifkin doesn't represent anything about Judaism. This won't help for his diehard supporters, but it will help people on the fence who are considering taking him seriously.
Hashkafic halfway house is a reference to when I began commenting, it was on a post that reported somebody who felt "hashkafically homeless".
You are full of it. I didn't see anything wrong with RNS's views though I might not agree with all of them. They are within the 13 Principles of Faith of the Rambam. You have your fixed ideas that your trusted Rebbi told you and therefore anyone who differs is a kofer.First of all it is a terrible sin to call a person a kofer.You may point out that a particular idea is not acceptable.
We don't need to relitigate this every post. He is a kofer in those things I mentioned in many, many of his articles. Therefore, his views on Judaism are no better than the Pope's. Actually, probably worse.
Brilliant article. And believe it or not, its even more articulate than the docs trash. Seems like there are Charadim out there who actually have an education. Gosh
I actually don't know why this got so many likes. Most of my comments aren't so popular. It's definitely possible there are one or more people with multiple accounts, but even so, why this comment?
It got so many likes, because people appreciated you called out his Kefirah where it applies and didnt fall for the docs silly baiting about heretical-ising his views about the age of the universe. Its comments like yours that make the dc look foolish, as all begin to realize how low he has fallen just to get back at those that he feels slighted him
Dear sweet God, this is a disgusting post. To target an ordained Rabbi, whose education and ordination was well within the bounds of the Orthodox community and the mesorah and spew trolltastic garbage at him no matter what he posts is eirev rav-level.
Who cares if he was "ordained"? He went off the derech and is now a kofer and a שונא תורה. He is a troll himself who has dedicated his life to promoting hatred of the chareidi community. Our comments are not even one hundredth of what he deserves. We are actually too nice to him.
I love your summary of the difference between the Haredi and DL outlook as "Personal Responsibility" vs "Communal Responsibility", and we see it in almost every aspect of Halacha, not just the Mitzva of serving in the Army.
For example, the question of how to approach Shmitta, the Haredi community ask "How can I get produce that conforms to all the requirements of Shmitta", the DL community as "How can we run a society and build an economy based on the requirements of Shmitta".
Similarly the question of moving graves, work on public infrastructure on Shabbat, providing an education for our children, setting up a kashrut system, determining how marriage, burials, or conversions should be handled, the DL community doesn't ask "What is best for me and my personal needs", rather "How can we approach this issue in a way that respects Halacha but is also for the benefit of society as a whole"
I think that you are confusing Sefardim with Ashkenazim. The Sefardim never dealt with reform in their midst and never espoused either the separatism nor the anti-zionism of the separatist Ashkenazim. Rav Ovadia Yosef always had the approach of dealing with all the people whether observant or not and always thought the State was important, supported (and performed) the heter Mechirah, etc. I know less about R Yitzchak Yosef other than to know that yes, he seems to have picked up the Ashkenazi style of insulting the non-religious in public, but he still comes from a Zionist tradition.
Not sure how this is relevant. Natan made the claim that only the RZ care enough about other's mitzvah observance and gave Lag B'omer as an example. I pointed out that this Lag B'omer thing was R' Yitzchak Yosef's idea, who is in no way considered to be RZ.
Insulting secularists is not a Ashkenazi invention. If anything, although the Ashkenazi Charedim are pretty separatist, as you point out, Rav Ovadia was every outspoken about his criticism of secularists. Heck, he used to broadcast it weekly every Motzai Shabbos on the radio to the entire country. And the man did not mince words. He would've made Tucker blush (lehavdil alfei havdalos). Rav Yitzchak Yosef is following in the ways of his father, not the Ashkenazim.
Natan wrote that only the DL care about other people's shemiras hatmitzvos and ironically gave Lag b'omer as an example, which was R' Yitzhcak Yosef's idea.
Exactly. But why then all the fuss? Because the Charedi politicians think their own narrow agenda of "stealing" a non-existent hour is more important than the benefits of summer time for the rest of the population.
"How can we approach this issue in a way that respects Halacha but is also for the benefit of society as a whole"
Keeping halacha benefits society as a whole. You are not representing the DL position accurately at all. You are talking about the left-wing gay-rights-promoting, secularist version, which accepts secular values over the Torah. Rabbi Aviner sets out the religious DL position here, and unsurprisingly it is not too different from chareidim https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/rabbi-aviner-on-chareidim
I have no idea what the article from Rav Shlomo Aviner that you reposted has to do with my comment, or the sentence that you quoted.
Rav Shlomo Aviner is a big believer in ואהבת לרעך כמוך - you will (almost) never hear a bad word from him about any segment of society, not the Charedim, or secular, left wingers, or any other sub-segment. The fact that he encourages his followers to love all Jews, including Charedim does not mean that he doesn't think that he need to approach Halacha in a way that is for the benefit of society as a whole.
As you said, keeping Halacha does (or at least should) benefit society as a whole, but only of the possek takes into consideration the needs of society as a whole. Unfortunately, many poskim from the Charedi world have failed that test and do a disservice to both society and Halacha.
You have not described how chareidi poskim have failed this test. For example, if you read the teshuvos of Rav Elyashiv, he clearly took the whole society into account. So it's just a matter of you and your "poskim" not caring about halacha or the Torah in general.
Rav Natan gave a great example in his reply. A number of years ago when Lag B'Omer fell out on Motzei Shabbat the Religious Zionist Poskim tried to get the bonfires at Meron delayed until the following afternoon, to minimize Chilul Shabbat. But the Charedi organizers of the Hilula, presumably with guidance from their poskim, refused to make it later, as it was important to them to have bonfires at the regular time, and they did not seem concerned with the Chilul Shabbat of the security people, firefighters, police officer, bus drivers and many others who would be forced to work on Shabbat.
The approach to Shmitta is another example, the Dati Leumi Rabbanim have tried to find Halachic solutions that will help Religious farmers and the economy as a whole - for example Heter Mechira, Otzar Beit Din, Hydroponic plants, plants grown outside the borders of Eretz Yisrael, etc. By and large Charedi poskim favour non-Jewish or imported produce. This solution can work for a small segment of society, but if the entire country only ate non-Jewish or imported produce, this would completely destroy the agriculture sector of the economy.
Serving in the army is of course another classic example, the Charedi poskim openly say that members of their community do not need to serve, this is possible for a small isolated community, but cannot work for society as a whole.
Universal Kollel is also favouring the needs over one community while ignoring the needs of the economy as a whole.
Shall I go on, or do you get the idea?
Not sure on what basis you say that Poskim from the Datil lemi camp "do not care about halacha", have you read halachic works by Rabbanim like Rav Mordechai Eliyahu, Rav Melamed, Rav Shlomo Aviner, Rav Yisraeli and other major Poskim from the DL community?
You can read chareidi poskim for the next 50 years, and yes, you will believe that chareidi society is beautiful, ethical, caring, loving, medakdek b'mitzovos blah blah blah.
The problem is, there is a huge gap between the theory and the practice in charediland. Just look at the gur on gur violence. A 'godol' declaring a ba'al chesed a 'mazik gomer' is defended on blogs. Hacking paywalls is not unethical. Etc Etc.
And of course, if push comes to shove, you can declare the other chap/group, a kofer/kofrim, or easier, not 're'ehu' and then do what you like to them. After all, bein odom l'chaveoiroh only applies to 're'ehu b'mitzos' right? It's quite clear charedi society only cares about their own (and matters like micro-black-dots on esrogim).
I read several lines, and he doesn't say the things you claim he does. I will not waste my time with reading irrelevant links. What you should do is provide a summary and an actual quotation.
Please provide the actual quotation from Rav Aviner.
In general his approach is that the Charedim are mistaken, but that we should gently bring them to see the error of their ways and not through force, as in forcing a draft on them. His website seems to be down now or I could references. Not that I am a supporter as he has some pretty extreme views on women's roles as well as credible allegations of very improper behavior as well as defending the improper behavior of others (those things seem to go together).
No, he thinks that his disagreements with the Charedim are very important. As you say that is why he is Zionist and not Charedi. He just believes that they are misguided in these important things and will eventually see the error of their ways. He wants them serving in the IDF but he wants them to do so willingly. If you mean that he considers that the differences don't diqualify them as religious Jews and Talmidei Chacham as the Chereidim do, yes. That is true of the RZ in general. They will quote Charedi poskim and give them deference, while Charedim generally ignore the existence of other streams or their Rabbi and consider them completely invalid no matter how erudite. If they need to quote them, then they do so anonymously. This is definitely an advantage of RZ over Charedi halachah in general. The Charedim forgo lots of good torah leaving theirs often inferior and uninformed compared to where they could be.
This essay basically gives over the impression that chareidim are 'selfish' while the more classic approach is to be more communal and responsible. I'm not sure this was on purpose, but this comes off as great PR against chareidim. So let me clarify our position.
Anyone aware of philosophy knows about the paradox between self and community. Someone who brushes his teeth 2x daily even when he's feeling lazy (I think I used this example in a previous comment on the last post), has a better chance of being a good building block to benefit society. Someone who marries and takes care of his wife and kids is generally a better person who can give more to the community. Of course practically there is a lot of variance and nuance, which means a lot of exceptions, but as a general rule, these are fair statements. Brushing teeth isn't "selfish" though this activity technically maximizes the self, because this is actually enabling a better giver. If indeed the teeth brusher is just trying to live healthier just in order to consume more net food over his lifetime, that truly is selfish. But if he is a giving person, and he's brushing his teeth as a responsibility to his family and community to be a healthier person to be able to give more, this "self promoting" act is actually quite selfless.
Chareidim believe that torah learning, besides being the best self discipline ever, fills the world up with Hashem and His influence. (Man has the unique ability to ignore Him and through thinking and caring about Him and following His laws, we fill the void of a world where some *billions* never even heard of Him.) All good in this world comes from His influence, which man controls to a large extent. Call it mysticism, we call it coming and bringing the world closer to God. This is not selfish. At all.
That all being said, I certainly agree that many chareidim can use serious help in their bein adam lchaveiro, as rigorous self focus can and for many does lead to a certain selfishness as they ignore the larger goal by focusing on the day to day details of avoda. But that is a problem with individuals, not with the system, or I guess as any system will have these sorts of issues in implementation.
There's two problems with what you said. One is that charedim *do not believe* that Torah replaces any hishtadlus other than serving in the IDF. It doesn't replace hishtadlus for health. It doesn't replace military protection of charedi towns. Second is that as Michael Sedley pointed out, charedim are not really focused in filling the non-charedi world with Hashem and his influence, especially when it conflicts with charedi interests.
Your first point has to do with אפשר לעשות ע'י אחרים again. We can rehash what I responded last time (what you decided was retorting to other equally problematic arguments: not true) but not sure if you're interested.
As for the second point, can you clarify? We'd be more than overjoyed if anyone else in the world joined us in our mission of being מרבה כבוד שמים. I promise. Maybe I didn't understand you correctly? We don't have other "interests"
It doesn't replace hishtadlus. It complements hishtadlus. And it's not just the IDF. It's a fact that chareidim do less hishtadlus for themselves so that they can study Torah. It's a fact that most Hatzalah members are not the biggest masmidim (of course there may be exceptions). The idea is that Torah study is the most important job there is, especially in today's secularist environment.
Because the DL Judaism of shatnez and kilaim is not attractive. Because the DL belief that we are living in the Messianic times doesn't make sense and doesn't provide the necessary motivation for the religious
Probably because there is good money to be had. If Rabbi X is mekarev the right guys, his kids can be in kollel for life. It's obviously done a little more subteler than that, but some chareidi kiruv organisations are run as businesses (tax exempt too) with their high grade staff on great salaries.
This is just not true. Do you even have any proof for such a claim? I know multiple people who have worked and do work in kiruv instistutions/Yeshivas.
...is very selfish if he's currently on shift in an ER during a crisis, or a combat soldier in middle of an operation.
"the paradox between self and community"
It's not a paradox. It's a dilemma.
"That all being said, I certainly agree that many chareidim can use serious help in their bein adam lchaveiro,That all being said, I certainly agree that many chareidim can use serious help in their bein adam lchaveiro,"
But didn't a RY just referred to such sentiments as הבל הבלים?
"is very selfish if he's currently on shift in an ER during a crisis, or a combat soldier in middle of an operation."
you seem to have missed my point. i wasn't saying people should be brushing their teeth in the ER. but the dr wwho brushes his teeth will often be a better dr. ow during war we can have a discussion about what to do, but that doesn't change what our attitude in life should be
if we have the whole story, i disagree with that RY's approach
I agree , it certainly comes across as DL are (as a group) selfless and Chareidim are (as a group) selfish.
It stems. I believe from a lack of understanding of chariedi hashkafa, which has somehow resulted in a conclusion that chareidim don't actually care, and anytime they say they do its just an excuse (lie). Instead of being a genuine disagreement in hashkafa .
But I would have to add that this problem actually rests (partly) on chareidi shoulders as well. Many chareidim are not aware of the bigger picture and are actually selfish die to their personal avoda. No one who is a gadol or a leader thinks they but there are some of the masses that are like this. We do need to improve.
In essence what I'm saying is is that the issue is not only with outsiders who lack understanding of the hashkafa, but also with insiders who also lack this proper understanding.
But as I said, this is a side effect of a culture and its population, not of the core ideology. We need to distinguish the two.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ...
I didn't see Rabbi Lichtenstein's article beyond your quote, but it sounds totally out to lunch. (ן also find it hypocritical for people to rely on a selective curation of agadata quotes, while refusing to allow the other side the same privilege. When coupled with the Kabbalistic concept of נהמא דכיסופא, the hypocrisy screams.)
A halachic sevara or rule stands by itself. You cannot decide 'what Torah is all about' and determine Halacha based on that. If indeed this was a מצוה שאפשר לעשות ע"י אחרים, the Halacha of Bitul Torah would trump the Army service.
I don't know that it is relevant to this specific case, because the obligation to serve in the Army is not to save lives.
If we were discussing the Mitzvah of saving lives and helping others, it is certainly a מצוה שאפשר לעשות ע"י אחרים, and Limud Hatorah comes first. Morality follows Halacha, not the other way around.
So if you're stuck on a desert island after a plane crash, and you can either eat shellfish or your dead co-passengers, you'd eat your dead co-passengers?
That's actually a solid point. The question is where to draw the line tho. Not an easy answer at all. But I contend that if we need to revamp the entire yeshivos system with no guarantee that the void can be filled, that's a good place to draw the line
And yes we would need daas Torah to make this decision
There is a Halcha of מאכילין אותו הקל הקל, and if that demands I overcome my natural squeamishness and eat humans instead of shellfish, פיקוח נפש trumps all.
Or that the main problem of necrophilia would be motzei zera levatalah. A prominent acharon (I forget who) holds that the prohibition of walking around naked precedes the Torah, that it's basic normal human behavior.
If the Halacha is different, the issue is an academic Halachic one, not personal morality vs. Torah. Nothing trumps Torah.
Slifkin's link is to someone with little access to primary sources. It is scholarly for armchair scholars, those who don't like investing effort into understanding things and knowing them thoroughly. Even from a secular standpoint, they are sorely lacking. They don't even quote Philo on the subject.
It is certainly gross. But it is no different to your behavior if there were no shellfish to be found. If you were stuck in a desert with nothing but the body of your spouse, would you starve to death?
We are talking about extenuating circumstances here.
I have yet to hear of a psak that says differently. If there is, I will change my mind accordingly.
I don't understand how the logic of "if there are others to do the mitzva, keep learning" could possibly apply in the case of soldiers fighting to protect the country, for a couple of reasons.
First, this soldier whom you are letting to the mitzvah while you learn is also protecting YOU. Why should he precede you in the mitzvah to protect you? Do you think chazal meant to apply this principle of "if there are others" even that far? This attitude sounds a lot like the guy who lets the other guy do all the work helping load/unload his animal while he, the owner, stands by and says, God gave him the mitzvah, not me. Chazal say that in such a case the mitzvah no longer applies. The same logic should apply here.
Secondly, the soldier who is fighting while you learn also needs your chessed of your participation. He's risking his life for you and wants you to take a turn so he can rest, or get your help, or at least receive the moral support of knowing that the people he's fighting for stand with him. If you fight alongside him you could save his life. The principle of "if there are others" no longer makes sense in a case where those others, by doing the mitzvah, are making a great sacrifice or taking a great risk that would be alleviated by your help. The demand for this particular chessed for that soldier cannot be fulfilled by that soldier. It needs you.
As for your analogy of the guy standing on the side doing nothing, that only means anything if you believe lomdei torah are doing nothing.
To your second "argument," again if you can prove that the yeshivos can continue their mission by changing their whole tune to help the war effort, by all means
You think that the Halakhah is that if the owner of the animal decides to sit and learn Torah while the passerby loads/unloads it, the passerby remains obligated? I'd like to see a source for that.
I don't know what mission you're talking about (you can point me to a comment that I might not have read), but as far as I know God gave the same mission, Torah and Halakhah, to all Jews.
"You think that the Halakhah is that if the owner of the animal decides to sit and learn Torah while the passerby loads/unloads it, the passerby remains obligated?"
no. but are you allowed to watch a clean movie in america while soldiers are fighting on the front lines there?
the mission i'm referring to is one of becoming a talmid chochom which is an entire life's work. not everyone is מחוייב to do this, but כלל ישראל needs some who give up their entire lives to learning כל התורה כולה אליבא דהלכתא. see igros moshe YD 4 siman 36 at length. this is the model the yeshivos try to enable, and no other system does or can enable this model
Since Halacha is a system that deals in quantities and limits, and time-frames, I'd like to know the shiur [in terms of effort, danger, time, cost etc] for "someone else can do it".
Up to what point can the Torah-learner say "someone else can serve in the army", and for that matter "someone else can provide for me financially" or "someone else can take care of our elderly parents?". Does the someone else need to be a specific person? or just the general population ["there must be somebody who can get killed in Gaza instead of me"]
Where do you draw the line?
This is not a theoretical question as the proportion of full time learners becomes an increasingly large part of the population
since you're asking a very pointed question (thanks for that), i need to make sure we don't get away from the main point. the first thing, regarding the state, we're all thrilled that it exists and that we can keep all the many mitzvos that come along with it - not to mention the ability to connect with Hashem that is only possible here in our home, but at the same time we would not give up our growth in torah for all of these "maalos" (i put that in quotes because really they are much more than that, but at the same time, in this context, that is how they are to be treated in the hierarchy of things). while we are here, we truly, truly appreciate it, and we will use it to boost our focus of torah. but letting go of that focus, in our view, will be more damaging.
now, the facts are that the chareidim have won. we have the numbers to vote for exemptions and we got'm.
i understand that this has some horrible sounding ramifications. it means we "don't care about anything but ourselves." we are living in this country and are not willing to fight for it. we're just leeches. but hey - guess what? that was the antisemitic rhetoric for our entire existence! we were always hated because we were leeches. we've always lived in other countries while we really never cared about them. we never joined their armies (unless we were forced, which was considered a terrible tragedy), we never became "them." and it bothered our hosts to no end. i hate to say it, and i i say this hoping you can take this in context, but this isn't quite so different. this is what happens when the mission is olam haba and torah, not olam hazeh. we don't get sucked up in the noise of the world and all of its screaming "hishtadlus." we simply do what He asks, and He in turn takes care of the menial stuff. that is chareidi ideology. (again, it's not actually like other countries, but in the scale of importance to our torah learning, it is)
it may sound selfish, but it really just is a different value system. the call to fight in the army is the same as the call to fight in the american army. saving israel is simply not something worth giving up yiddishkeit for. when our numbers are really needed, hopefully the army will have no choice but to make real accommodations on our terms, limiting the spiritual damage.
that all being said, there are real problems in the chareidi community that need to be fixed. we are too insular, too selfish and too not caring. not everyone learning appreciates what they are doing - proof: they would be learning a whole lot better if they did! their shmoneh esreis would be a lot more meaningful if they did! facts are, we need to do teshuva, majorly, but the issue isn't the system. it is that we are a part of this system and not maximizing it.
"saving Israel is not worth the price." So you accept others paying the price instead. My boys have to risk their lives for yours, but yours will not risk their lives for mine. Honestly, anyone who feels that way should just leave Israel.
First of all I appreciate the detail and respectful tone of your response, and your honesty.
I would like to share a few points:
1- First of all, you write "the facts are that the chareidim have won. we have the numbers to vote for exemptions and we got'm."
That might be true, and certainly the Chareidi riots that take place every time there is talk of changing the system have been effective. But the fact that your community *can* do something, doesn't make it right. I would claim that by your community not serving, you are causing me direct and measurable harm. (I would also claim that you are causing your own community harm, as well, but that is a separate issue). If every community did nothing but stand up for their right to do whatever they want, we would be living in a very unpleasant place.
2- I understand your need/desire to live according to Chareidi values. In the US, it's easy (or easier)..it's the land of live and let live. As long as American Chareidim can figure out how to pay for their "lifestyle" of learning and not working, they bother no one.
In Israel it's different...both because of the army, and the size of the Chareidi population relative to the size of the overall population and economy. Chareidi non-participation has major consequences on the population as a whole.
3- I respect the importance of the Chareidi lifestyle and belief system to the average Chareidi (even if I disagree that it reflects Ratzon Hashem). Nevertheless, as sincerely held your beliefs are (we're talking mainly about the belief of the primacy of Torah study, and how it trounces just about anything else), you can't argue that everyone else should give up something (in this case it could even be their lives..in the current war) to support those beliefs. Let's say a group of "super-Nachmanim" would gradually appear (and grow over the years), believing that they need to spend 6 months a year in Uman. During that time, they of course wouldn't work, wouldn't serve in the army, and they would expect the government to support their families. Would we be obligated to do so just because of their sincerely held beliefs?
Even though I wouldn't phrase it as such I believe there is legitimacy to the question, in what scenario will the Charedim (as a whole) decide go to war / join the army?
Each question is dealt with separately, the money one for example, is dependent on the individual, what is sustainable and how much are they willing to sacrifice. There is no rule. It is not Assur to work.
I don't get the old people one.
And there must be someone who can die... its just plain hurtful if you think that is the attitude. This idea that chareidim don't care about people dying is a slanderous lie.
If it is not Assur to go to work, which is for the benefit of mainly the individual himself, and is a long term commitment, why should it be Assur to go to the army, which is a shorter term interruption, and for the sake of the Klal?
Regarding the "old people", I'll explain. In almost every family there will generally be at least one elderly relative who requires care. Parts of the care are often done by paid caregivers, but much of the care generally still falls on the family...for example taking shifts at the hospital so the elderly relative won't be left alone. How does "exempt if someone else can do it" play out in such a situation? Does learning trump Kibud Horim- the sons/grandsons who are learning don't take shifts at the hospital? Or maybe they do..
I'm interested in understanding what if any situations justify a [temporary/complete or partial] break from learning, and then applying it to army service as well..
These same questions can be asked from non-chareidim as well. The difference is that chareidim make a huge oversized contribution to the spiritual welfare of the country, which is the most important contribution.
>"BANana added that this is an example of how we are coming from two totally different universes.
I couldn’t agree more with the latter sentiment. But allow me to explain why, although he thinks that his universe is the one of Torah, I think it’s the exact opposite. My response is based on the writings of Rav Aharon Lichtenstein, ztz”l, which I think are representative on this topic for the dati-leumi perspective in general (and indeed of Chazal, and in fact of everyone until the modern phenomenon of charedi Judaism - and even then, perhaps until the late-20th century permutation of it)."
I'd like to suggest a different framing here.
You view this through the perspective of Rationalism vs. Mysticism. This split in worldviews goes back to medieval times, reaching its peak with the Maimonidean controversies, and the split between philosophy and Kabbalah.
I'd like to suggest a different framing: Biblical vs Talmudic. Early Zionists explicitly talked about "negation of the Diaspora", meaning, the last 1800 years (from the failed bar kochba rebellion) until their time, and a return to Tanakh. Rav Kook and his religious Zionist followers similarly explicitly talked about a return to Torat Eretz Yisrael. Essentially, negating aspects of the Talmud Bavli that didn't fit being a sovereign state.
In contrast, the Talmud consistently de-emphasizes the military aspects of Tanakh, and rabbinizes the figures there (see one example of this in my latest post: https://www.ezrabrand.com/p/one-day-david-went-falcon-hunting) . The supreme ideal for Chazal was learning Torah, which nowadays would be called "ivory tower", and they were indeed extremely insular, and harshly denigrate amei ha'aretz.
Exactly. When we call him a kofer, it's not just a slur. It's because he is really a kofer, as we see in this exchange. And that is where his entire worldview is coming from.
You are conceding that you are the מוציא, classical Judaism did not accept the new Jew of Zionism. Yet you still try and claim, based on external factors and tiny nuances, that Charedism is the innovation.
So Shas Bavli could deal with the Industrial Revolution, galus under Moslems and Christians, Western liberalism, as well as fundamentalist cultists, but when it comes to a State of Israel, no more Shas Bavli.
Isn't that the best argument against a State of Israel?
Mr. Brand, I must thank you. You're the best thing that ever happened to RJ. Until now, Natan's game was to say, "We're the real Jews. The way Chazal wanted Jews to be. And were not kofrim. The Charedim are the impostors."
Along comes Ezra Brand and says, "Charedim are the golus, insulated Jews who follow in the footsteps of Chazal. But we're kofrim and don't believe in Chazal. We believe in 'ancient Judaism'." To which Natan responds, "You're right!"
In a few short lines, you said everything that the Charedim on this blog have been saying all these years. And Natan agreed to you! I think we can all close up shop now.
"In contrast, the Talmud consistently de-emphasizes the military aspects of Tanakh, and rabbinizes the figures there"
I think this the right moment to mention R Lichtenstein's argument that while Chazal describe biblical warriors like David as learning Torah, they do not contradict the language of Tanach that these figures also fought wars. Thus, the picture that emerges from Chazal is that these figures both fought wars and learned Torah. Unsurprisingly R Lichtenstein led an institution whose students both fight wars and learn Torah, and it seems like an approach all communities should follow.
So basically, we have to rethink our acceptance of Talmud Bavli and all generations that accepted it and used it as the final authority in order to accept your worldview.
I don't know how anyone could have made a better argument against your opinion than that. To accept Lichtenstein's opinion, we would have to give up Judaism as we know it. Great. I wonder what his father in law would have said to that.
I just wanted to clarify here: I realize now that "negating" isn't precise. A better term would be "moderating" it, in the sense of taking into account a broader range of traditional sources, including Tanakh, Talmud Yerushalmi, Midrashim, Kabbalah, etc, with an emphasis on Eretz Yisrael and sovereignty.
In the same way that Chazal in their time heavily emphasized the aspect of Torah study, because militarism and sovereignty were less relevant, and even dangerous, taking into account all the failed rebellions against Rome, and general Roman antisemitism and heavy-handedness, or what would properly be called "colonialism" nowadays. (That term is of course loaded nowadays, and often misused and abused for political reasons, but is in fact a proper historical description of how Rome ruled, and "colony" is in fact a Latin term)
Very nice, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle. NS already agreed to your original version - which IS outright kefirah in Chazal - and the readers (critics) of this blog are more interested in what HE thinks..
It's also no coincidence that the development of Torah sheba'al peh coincided to a large extent with the destruction of the Second Temple, as has been noted by many.
man ur 2 much about hate. you gotta focus on ur inner peace. make piece with the demons inside you. u aint goin anywer in life if u let them torment u. i dont no ur history but man u got bagage. let bygones be bygones. i luv my hebrew brothers. piece to u all
It is similar to your framing, but yours adds in a point about selfishness. I don't agree that Chareidim are selfish at all, it merely stems from the opinion that Torah learning is the most selfless thing can be done. In contrast, someone Dati would categorize someone only focusing on learning as being selfish because he is only focusing on his own improvement.
Kvod harav, i agree with most of your points, but in a note for unity: why would we have to choose between the two? We do need people who learn, and remind the rest of the nation the importance of limmud torah, and it goes without saying that there is no stronger mitzvah than saving jewish lives (here, as part of the army). Couldn't we think of ways to integrate these two parts of the nation together? The midrash says that when Yehoshua went to battle, a 3rd of the army were fighters, a third were handling logistics, and a third praying. We could certainly try to replicate that to some extent and get the different fringes of the nation together.
Something of an “apples and oranges” fallacy at work. Also, maybe a “time and place” issue. If Torah study is most important, certainly it comes in 2nd place if you have to stop to give someone the Heimlich Maneuver.! There is a time and a place…. And saying Torah study is how the world keeps going is a non-falsifiable assertion fallacy. Can’t make heads or tails of its truth content. The quintessence of how all religions operate….probably not worth arguing over as a result. Can’t be probed further…
The “apples and oranges” fallacy is also at work. Killing an enemy before he kills you is one kind of activity, Torah study another kind. Too unalike to compare. Like trying to compare Crime and Punishment by Dostoevsky with a pamphlet from your doctor on HIV. Sure, they’re both written material, but…
An interesting issue here is to what extent the Charedi worldview is an adaptation to Diasporic Judaism, and classical and national Zionist perspectives are simply the return to a Judaism compatible with sovereignty. For me the rabbinic aversion to dead penalty and the extreme concern for hostages are scars remaining in Judaisms from a long non sovereign period. Learned helplessness.
Agreed. The problem is hareidim still go with this outdated rabbinic stuff like the Babylonian Talmud. They need to stop with this rabbinical Judaism and return to Biblical Judaism.
there is a dictum in the Talmud אין סומלים אל הנס, We do not rely on miracles. If a hamas terrorist comes to rape your daughter, the only way to stop it is to shoot the bastard and kill him before he gets close to your daughter. That is a physical fact. If you do not do that, then the blood is on your head (for being foolish).
The way the program lists "Top Comment" as the default first comment presents difficulties for those of who prefer to go through the comments and evaluate them ourselves.
Hi Slifkin. When we call you a kofer, it's not just a slogan or catchphrase the way you bandy about the kabbalistic phrase "Nahama d'kisufa". It's real and important. Throughout your writings, you are kofer in many fundamentals of Judaism such as prayer, hashgacha klalis, hashgacha pratis, schar v'onesh, miracles, the truth of the Torah. And this informs your entire worldview, which has nothing to do with rationalism, or the Rambam, or Zionism, or Dati Leumi, but is exclusively your rejection of Judaism. Period.
This discredits all your opinions on the matter. Your opinions on chareidim serving, or anything else pertaining to chareidim, or to Dati leumi, or to Judaism, are no more relevant than the pope's.
The Dati Leumi poskim who hold that there is an obligation for yeshiva students to serve are not coming from the same worldview as you, so we don't call them kofrim. We simply disagree with them. We hold that Torah study is an overriding *communal* responsibility, especially in today's secularist environment, that people like you are responsible for. That doesn't mean we can't be grateful for the soldiers that serve. We just realize that Torah is even more important, which is classical Judaism.
Hey what about my beliefs that the universe is billions of years old and that Chazal were sometimes mistaken about the natural world? How come you left those out?
Because I was only including examples of your kefirah, not your stupidity.
Are those beliefs kefirah or not?
Thanks for making my point.
His answer is the reason he may not be a Kofer.
He is a kal da'as, he doesn't think much about his opinions, he doesn't treat his opinions seriously, he doesn't research his facts, he doesn't care for 'right and wrong'. That's why airy snarky remarks are enough for him, that's why he can never quote a primary source, and that's why he never manages to understand those who disagree with him.
Why is belief in a 14 billion year old universe stupid? Unless you consider all of our great scientific minds idiots.
Because there's no way to know the age of the universe, if you don't know how it started. All scientists can say is, that assuming everything always was the same as it is today (i.e. all laws of physics etc.), then the universe is x years old. Now they assume everything was the same since the beginning, because why would they assume otherwise.
Now you can argue that they are indeed idiots, because since they admittedly have no idea how it all started, they have no right to make assumptions.
Its stupid when coming from an idiot who thinks he's dug up a gold mine that proves all those wiser than himself, wrong!
Not the belief itself. The way he treats the question.
He wrote you're kofer in the truth of the Torah, you can interpret that however you'd like.
But if you're busy writing that the Torah is a collection of fairytales, I can understand why the other issues didn't get an honorary mention.
You may be right, Hashkafic halfway house (what is that a reference to?), but I don't think this type of pointing out will get you anywhere. Rabbi Slifkin doesn't think he is a heretic and neither do his followers. What you can do is point out where they are wrong. And you may see that it's not as clear. You still may be correct in your approach. I think Haredim are closer to the truth. But I think the other side has some good points and we can all learn by coming together.
For example, you may be correct that God is running the world, but we still do our Hishtadlut. It may be true that we only do that when it isn't at the expense of our Avodah, and that this world looks dark to test us and we should be having more trust in God, but where to draw that line is difficult. It depends on the person and the situation and the time and the factors.
Also, although the Torah is the most important thing, not everyone can or even should be studying all day. There are twelve Shebatim with different roles. So the Haredi perspective is a good way to be Shebet Levi or Issachar, but all those who need to work and live more in this world for all kinds of circumstances in their lives, they need to live in the world in a more practical way. What about someone who is taken by science. Haredim's answers aren't always practical, even if they are correct. We need to be able to engage with all types. All this kind of comment does is distance people.
Yo my man Shemesh, I agree with most of your comment. We can't have kollel for all, all the time, and there is much to improve in chareidi society. Criticism is important. But not from people who reject our core values.
The reason for my comment is because it is important to point out that Slifkin doesn't represent anything about Judaism. This won't help for his diehard supporters, but it will help people on the fence who are considering taking him seriously.
Hashkafic halfway house is a reference to when I began commenting, it was on a post that reported somebody who felt "hashkafically homeless".
You are full of it. I didn't see anything wrong with RNS's views though I might not agree with all of them. They are within the 13 Principles of Faith of the Rambam. You have your fixed ideas that your trusted Rebbi told you and therefore anyone who differs is a kofer.First of all it is a terrible sin to call a person a kofer.You may point out that a particular idea is not acceptable.
We don't need to relitigate this every post. He is a kofer in those things I mentioned in many, many of his articles. Therefore, his views on Judaism are no better than the Pope's. Actually, probably worse.
"We don't need to relitigate this every post."
So stop bringing it up.
I bring it up because it's important and people are forgetting.
Wow. Excellently put! To better understand the Charedi perspective, see this post.
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/misleibeled
I think there's a lot of noise out there as to what the Charedi shita actually is, but this post puts it down in very clear terms.
Brilliant article. And believe it or not, its even more articulate than the docs trash. Seems like there are Charadim out there who actually have an education. Gosh
how many accounts do you have? or did 25 separate people actually like this comment? just saying...
I actually don't know why this got so many likes. Most of my comments aren't so popular. It's definitely possible there are one or more people with multiple accounts, but even so, why this comment?
lol or one troll decided this should be today's popular post
It got so many likes, because people appreciated you called out his Kefirah where it applies and didnt fall for the docs silly baiting about heretical-ising his views about the age of the universe. Its comments like yours that make the dc look foolish, as all begin to realize how low he has fallen just to get back at those that he feels slighted him
So you think 28 separate people liked that comment? And like 23 of them within like the first few minutes of being published?
Sure.
Hmm... Why indeed?
man thats hate. its not cool
Dear sweet God, this is a disgusting post. To target an ordained Rabbi, whose education and ordination was well within the bounds of the Orthodox community and the mesorah and spew trolltastic garbage at him no matter what he posts is eirev rav-level.
Who cares if he was "ordained"? He went off the derech and is now a kofer and a שונא תורה. He is a troll himself who has dedicated his life to promoting hatred of the chareidi community. Our comments are not even one hundredth of what he deserves. We are actually too nice to him.
So what are you doing on his website?
I explained that already. It's important to show readers that Slifkin does not represent Judaism in any way, shape, or form.
I love your summary of the difference between the Haredi and DL outlook as "Personal Responsibility" vs "Communal Responsibility", and we see it in almost every aspect of Halacha, not just the Mitzva of serving in the Army.
For example, the question of how to approach Shmitta, the Haredi community ask "How can I get produce that conforms to all the requirements of Shmitta", the DL community as "How can we run a society and build an economy based on the requirements of Shmitta".
Similarly the question of moving graves, work on public infrastructure on Shabbat, providing an education for our children, setting up a kashrut system, determining how marriage, burials, or conversions should be handled, the DL community doesn't ask "What is best for me and my personal needs", rather "How can we approach this issue in a way that respects Halacha but is also for the benefit of society as a whole"
Another example: when Lag BOmer falls on Motzash - moving bonfires to Sunday night to prevent chilul Shabbat by emergency services
I don't know so much about the Israeli scene, but I thought that Rav Yitzchak Yosef is the one that decided to push it off? He's pretty Charedi.
I think that you are confusing Sefardim with Ashkenazim. The Sefardim never dealt with reform in their midst and never espoused either the separatism nor the anti-zionism of the separatist Ashkenazim. Rav Ovadia Yosef always had the approach of dealing with all the people whether observant or not and always thought the State was important, supported (and performed) the heter Mechirah, etc. I know less about R Yitzchak Yosef other than to know that yes, he seems to have picked up the Ashkenazi style of insulting the non-religious in public, but he still comes from a Zionist tradition.
Not sure how this is relevant. Natan made the claim that only the RZ care enough about other's mitzvah observance and gave Lag B'omer as an example. I pointed out that this Lag B'omer thing was R' Yitzchak Yosef's idea, who is in no way considered to be RZ.
Insulting secularists is not a Ashkenazi invention. If anything, although the Ashkenazi Charedim are pretty separatist, as you point out, Rav Ovadia was every outspoken about his criticism of secularists. Heck, he used to broadcast it weekly every Motzai Shabbos on the radio to the entire country. And the man did not mince words. He would've made Tucker blush (lehavdil alfei havdalos). Rav Yitzchak Yosef is following in the ways of his father, not the Ashkenazim.
Sephardim observe the 34th of the Omer. :-)
My, my. You're a clever boy, laddie. I know that. I still believe it was his initiative.
Ok but Chareidim don't listen, you can't deny that
Natan wrote that only the DL care about other people's shemiras hatmitzvos and ironically gave Lag b'omer as an example, which was R' Yitzhcak Yosef's idea.
Changing to normal time from summer time to reduce the Yom Kippur fast to 25 hours.
The length isn’t changed it’s always 25 hours. It’s a matter of ending it sooner on the clock as if it really changes anything
Exactly. But why then all the fuss? Because the Charedi politicians think their own narrow agenda of "stealing" a non-existent hour is more important than the benefits of summer time for the rest of the population.
"How can we approach this issue in a way that respects Halacha but is also for the benefit of society as a whole"
Keeping halacha benefits society as a whole. You are not representing the DL position accurately at all. You are talking about the left-wing gay-rights-promoting, secularist version, which accepts secular values over the Torah. Rabbi Aviner sets out the religious DL position here, and unsurprisingly it is not too different from chareidim https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/rabbi-aviner-on-chareidim
I have no idea what the article from Rav Shlomo Aviner that you reposted has to do with my comment, or the sentence that you quoted.
Rav Shlomo Aviner is a big believer in ואהבת לרעך כמוך - you will (almost) never hear a bad word from him about any segment of society, not the Charedim, or secular, left wingers, or any other sub-segment. The fact that he encourages his followers to love all Jews, including Charedim does not mean that he doesn't think that he need to approach Halacha in a way that is for the benefit of society as a whole.
As you said, keeping Halacha does (or at least should) benefit society as a whole, but only of the possek takes into consideration the needs of society as a whole. Unfortunately, many poskim from the Charedi world have failed that test and do a disservice to both society and Halacha.
You have not described how chareidi poskim have failed this test. For example, if you read the teshuvos of Rav Elyashiv, he clearly took the whole society into account. So it's just a matter of you and your "poskim" not caring about halacha or the Torah in general.
Rav Natan gave a great example in his reply. A number of years ago when Lag B'Omer fell out on Motzei Shabbat the Religious Zionist Poskim tried to get the bonfires at Meron delayed until the following afternoon, to minimize Chilul Shabbat. But the Charedi organizers of the Hilula, presumably with guidance from their poskim, refused to make it later, as it was important to them to have bonfires at the regular time, and they did not seem concerned with the Chilul Shabbat of the security people, firefighters, police officer, bus drivers and many others who would be forced to work on Shabbat.
The approach to Shmitta is another example, the Dati Leumi Rabbanim have tried to find Halachic solutions that will help Religious farmers and the economy as a whole - for example Heter Mechira, Otzar Beit Din, Hydroponic plants, plants grown outside the borders of Eretz Yisrael, etc. By and large Charedi poskim favour non-Jewish or imported produce. This solution can work for a small segment of society, but if the entire country only ate non-Jewish or imported produce, this would completely destroy the agriculture sector of the economy.
Serving in the army is of course another classic example, the Charedi poskim openly say that members of their community do not need to serve, this is possible for a small isolated community, but cannot work for society as a whole.
Universal Kollel is also favouring the needs over one community while ignoring the needs of the economy as a whole.
Shall I go on, or do you get the idea?
Not sure on what basis you say that Poskim from the Datil lemi camp "do not care about halacha", have you read halachic works by Rabbanim like Rav Mordechai Eliyahu, Rav Melamed, Rav Shlomo Aviner, Rav Yisraeli and other major Poskim from the DL community?
You can read chareidi poskim for the next 50 years, and yes, you will believe that chareidi society is beautiful, ethical, caring, loving, medakdek b'mitzovos blah blah blah.
The problem is, there is a huge gap between the theory and the practice in charediland. Just look at the gur on gur violence. A 'godol' declaring a ba'al chesed a 'mazik gomer' is defended on blogs. Hacking paywalls is not unethical. Etc Etc.
And of course, if push comes to shove, you can declare the other chap/group, a kofer/kofrim, or easier, not 're'ehu' and then do what you like to them. After all, bein odom l'chaveoiroh only applies to 're'ehu b'mitzos' right? It's quite clear charedi society only cares about their own (and matters like micro-black-dots on esrogim).
Or they just just view the torah differently than Rav elyashiv..
Please provide the actual quotation from Rav Aviner.
Click the link, you will see plenty of actual quotations.
I read several lines, and he doesn't say the things you claim he does. I will not waste my time with reading irrelevant links. What you should do is provide a summary and an actual quotation.
Please provide the actual quotation from Rav Aviner.
In general his approach is that the Charedim are mistaken, but that we should gently bring them to see the error of their ways and not through force, as in forcing a draft on them. His website seems to be down now or I could references. Not that I am a supporter as he has some pretty extreme views on women's roles as well as credible allegations of very improper behavior as well as defending the improper behavior of others (those things seem to go together).
Thank you Captain Obvious. Of course he thinks chareidim are mistaken. Otherwise he would be a chareidi Rabbi instead of a Dati rabbi.
He just thinks they're right about the most important things.
No, he thinks that his disagreements with the Charedim are very important. As you say that is why he is Zionist and not Charedi. He just believes that they are misguided in these important things and will eventually see the error of their ways. He wants them serving in the IDF but he wants them to do so willingly. If you mean that he considers that the differences don't diqualify them as religious Jews and Talmidei Chacham as the Chereidim do, yes. That is true of the RZ in general. They will quote Charedi poskim and give them deference, while Charedim generally ignore the existence of other streams or their Rabbi and consider them completely invalid no matter how erudite. If they need to quote them, then they do so anonymously. This is definitely an advantage of RZ over Charedi halachah in general. The Charedim forgo lots of good torah leaving theirs often inferior and uninformed compared to where they could be.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/209164/rav-aviner-avreichim-must-earn-a-living.html
I feel like I should clarify one thing:
This essay basically gives over the impression that chareidim are 'selfish' while the more classic approach is to be more communal and responsible. I'm not sure this was on purpose, but this comes off as great PR against chareidim. So let me clarify our position.
Anyone aware of philosophy knows about the paradox between self and community. Someone who brushes his teeth 2x daily even when he's feeling lazy (I think I used this example in a previous comment on the last post), has a better chance of being a good building block to benefit society. Someone who marries and takes care of his wife and kids is generally a better person who can give more to the community. Of course practically there is a lot of variance and nuance, which means a lot of exceptions, but as a general rule, these are fair statements. Brushing teeth isn't "selfish" though this activity technically maximizes the self, because this is actually enabling a better giver. If indeed the teeth brusher is just trying to live healthier just in order to consume more net food over his lifetime, that truly is selfish. But if he is a giving person, and he's brushing his teeth as a responsibility to his family and community to be a healthier person to be able to give more, this "self promoting" act is actually quite selfless.
Chareidim believe that torah learning, besides being the best self discipline ever, fills the world up with Hashem and His influence. (Man has the unique ability to ignore Him and through thinking and caring about Him and following His laws, we fill the void of a world where some *billions* never even heard of Him.) All good in this world comes from His influence, which man controls to a large extent. Call it mysticism, we call it coming and bringing the world closer to God. This is not selfish. At all.
That all being said, I certainly agree that many chareidim can use serious help in their bein adam lchaveiro, as rigorous self focus can and for many does lead to a certain selfishness as they ignore the larger goal by focusing on the day to day details of avoda. But that is a problem with individuals, not with the system, or I guess as any system will have these sorts of issues in implementation.
There's two problems with what you said. One is that charedim *do not believe* that Torah replaces any hishtadlus other than serving in the IDF. It doesn't replace hishtadlus for health. It doesn't replace military protection of charedi towns. Second is that as Michael Sedley pointed out, charedim are not really focused in filling the non-charedi world with Hashem and his influence, especially when it conflicts with charedi interests.
Your first point has to do with אפשר לעשות ע'י אחרים again. We can rehash what I responded last time (what you decided was retorting to other equally problematic arguments: not true) but not sure if you're interested.
As for the second point, can you clarify? We'd be more than overjoyed if anyone else in the world joined us in our mission of being מרבה כבוד שמים. I promise. Maybe I didn't understand you correctly? We don't have other "interests"
It doesn't replace hishtadlus. It complements hishtadlus. And it's not just the IDF. It's a fact that chareidim do less hishtadlus for themselves so that they can study Torah. It's a fact that most Hatzalah members are not the biggest masmidim (of course there may be exceptions). The idea is that Torah study is the most important job there is, especially in today's secularist environment.
Why are virtually all the kiruv orgs Charedi?
Because the DL Judaism of shatnez and kilaim is not attractive. Because the DL belief that we are living in the Messianic times doesn't make sense and doesn't provide the necessary motivation for the religious
observance since כל העדה כולם קדושים regardless.
Probably because there is good money to be had. If Rabbi X is mekarev the right guys, his kids can be in kollel for life. It's obviously done a little more subteler than that, but some chareidi kiruv organisations are run as businesses (tax exempt too) with their high grade staff on great salaries.
This is just not true. Do you even have any proof for such a claim? I know multiple people who have worked and do work in kiruv instistutions/Yeshivas.
In short, almost all of them have a second job.
NCSY?
Were mainly speaking about israeli society
" Someone who brushes his teeth 2x daily..."
...is very selfish if he's currently on shift in an ER during a crisis, or a combat soldier in middle of an operation.
"the paradox between self and community"
It's not a paradox. It's a dilemma.
"That all being said, I certainly agree that many chareidim can use serious help in their bein adam lchaveiro,That all being said, I certainly agree that many chareidim can use serious help in their bein adam lchaveiro,"
But didn't a RY just referred to such sentiments as הבל הבלים?
He said he dosent agree with Rav Landau if i remember correctly
"is very selfish if he's currently on shift in an ER during a crisis, or a combat soldier in middle of an operation."
you seem to have missed my point. i wasn't saying people should be brushing their teeth in the ER. but the dr wwho brushes his teeth will often be a better dr. ow during war we can have a discussion about what to do, but that doesn't change what our attitude in life should be
if we have the whole story, i disagree with that RY's approach
And btw it's a paradox, not a dilemma. The more one is selfless the better self he is and the more selfish the worse self he is
I agree , it certainly comes across as DL are (as a group) selfless and Chareidim are (as a group) selfish.
It stems. I believe from a lack of understanding of chariedi hashkafa, which has somehow resulted in a conclusion that chareidim don't actually care, and anytime they say they do its just an excuse (lie). Instead of being a genuine disagreement in hashkafa .
Right.
But I would have to add that this problem actually rests (partly) on chareidi shoulders as well. Many chareidim are not aware of the bigger picture and are actually selfish die to their personal avoda. No one who is a gadol or a leader thinks they but there are some of the masses that are like this. We do need to improve.
In essence what I'm saying is is that the issue is not only with outsiders who lack understanding of the hashkafa, but also with insiders who also lack this proper understanding.
But as I said, this is a side effect of a culture and its population, not of the core ideology. We need to distinguish the two.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ...
TCHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Ok, time for the next post. All the fights on this one are basically all died out.
I didn't see Rabbi Lichtenstein's article beyond your quote, but it sounds totally out to lunch. (ן also find it hypocritical for people to rely on a selective curation of agadata quotes, while refusing to allow the other side the same privilege. When coupled with the Kabbalistic concept of נהמא דכיסופא, the hypocrisy screams.)
A halachic sevara or rule stands by itself. You cannot decide 'what Torah is all about' and determine Halacha based on that. If indeed this was a מצוה שאפשר לעשות ע"י אחרים, the Halacha of Bitul Torah would trump the Army service.
I don't know that it is relevant to this specific case, because the obligation to serve in the Army is not to save lives.
If we were discussing the Mitzvah of saving lives and helping others, it is certainly a מצוה שאפשר לעשות ע"י אחרים, and Limud Hatorah comes first. Morality follows Halacha, not the other way around.
So if you're stuck on a desert island after a plane crash, and you can either eat shellfish or your dead co-passengers, you'd eat your dead co-passengers?
https://etzion.org.il/en/philosophy/issues-jewish-thought/issues-mussar-and-faith/natural-morality
Yes, just because you reject halacha doesn't mean we should.
That's actually a solid point. The question is where to draw the line tho. Not an easy answer at all. But I contend that if we need to revamp the entire yeshivos system with no guarantee that the void can be filled, that's a good place to draw the line
And yes we would need daas Torah to make this decision
There is a Halcha of מאכילין אותו הקל הקל, and if that demands I overcome my natural squeamishness and eat humans instead of shellfish, פיקוח נפש trumps all.
Who would pasken any differently?
Reb Yaakov zt'l paskens differently. Somewhere in emes lyaakov on Navi. I can try to find it. There are other sources as well
Or that the main problem of necrophilia would be motzei zera levatalah. A prominent acharon (I forget who) holds that the prohibition of walking around naked precedes the Torah, that it's basic normal human behavior.
If the Halacha is different, the issue is an academic Halachic one, not personal morality vs. Torah. Nothing trumps Torah.
Slifkin's link is to someone with little access to primary sources. It is scholarly for armchair scholars, those who don't like investing effort into understanding things and knowing them thoroughly. Even from a secular standpoint, they are sorely lacking. They don't even quote Philo on the subject.
Gross. And the poskim rule you wrong.
It is certainly gross. But it is no different to your behavior if there were no shellfish to be found. If you were stuck in a desert with nothing but the body of your spouse, would you starve to death?
We are talking about extenuating circumstances here.
I have yet to hear of a psak that says differently. If there is, I will change my mind accordingly.
Your poskim.
Again your Poskim,the ones that think the world is flat.
I don't understand how the logic of "if there are others to do the mitzva, keep learning" could possibly apply in the case of soldiers fighting to protect the country, for a couple of reasons.
First, this soldier whom you are letting to the mitzvah while you learn is also protecting YOU. Why should he precede you in the mitzvah to protect you? Do you think chazal meant to apply this principle of "if there are others" even that far? This attitude sounds a lot like the guy who lets the other guy do all the work helping load/unload his animal while he, the owner, stands by and says, God gave him the mitzvah, not me. Chazal say that in such a case the mitzvah no longer applies. The same logic should apply here.
Secondly, the soldier who is fighting while you learn also needs your chessed of your participation. He's risking his life for you and wants you to take a turn so he can rest, or get your help, or at least receive the moral support of knowing that the people he's fighting for stand with him. If you fight alongside him you could save his life. The principle of "if there are others" no longer makes sense in a case where those others, by doing the mitzvah, are making a great sacrifice or taking a great risk that would be alleviated by your help. The demand for this particular chessed for that soldier cannot be fulfilled by that soldier. It needs you.
As for your analogy of the guy standing on the side doing nothing, that only means anything if you believe lomdei torah are doing nothing.
To your second "argument," again if you can prove that the yeshivos can continue their mission by changing their whole tune to help the war effort, by all means
You think that the Halakhah is that if the owner of the animal decides to sit and learn Torah while the passerby loads/unloads it, the passerby remains obligated? I'd like to see a source for that.
I don't know what mission you're talking about (you can point me to a comment that I might not have read), but as far as I know God gave the same mission, Torah and Halakhah, to all Jews.
"You think that the Halakhah is that if the owner of the animal decides to sit and learn Torah while the passerby loads/unloads it, the passerby remains obligated?"
no. but are you allowed to watch a clean movie in america while soldiers are fighting on the front lines there?
the mission i'm referring to is one of becoming a talmid chochom which is an entire life's work. not everyone is מחוייב to do this, but כלל ישראל needs some who give up their entire lives to learning כל התורה כולה אליבא דהלכתא. see igros moshe YD 4 siman 36 at length. this is the model the yeshivos try to enable, and no other system does or can enable this model
Since Halacha is a system that deals in quantities and limits, and time-frames, I'd like to know the shiur [in terms of effort, danger, time, cost etc] for "someone else can do it".
Up to what point can the Torah-learner say "someone else can serve in the army", and for that matter "someone else can provide for me financially" or "someone else can take care of our elderly parents?". Does the someone else need to be a specific person? or just the general population ["there must be somebody who can get killed in Gaza instead of me"]
Where do you draw the line?
This is not a theoretical question as the proportion of full time learners becomes an increasingly large part of the population
since you're asking a very pointed question (thanks for that), i need to make sure we don't get away from the main point. the first thing, regarding the state, we're all thrilled that it exists and that we can keep all the many mitzvos that come along with it - not to mention the ability to connect with Hashem that is only possible here in our home, but at the same time we would not give up our growth in torah for all of these "maalos" (i put that in quotes because really they are much more than that, but at the same time, in this context, that is how they are to be treated in the hierarchy of things). while we are here, we truly, truly appreciate it, and we will use it to boost our focus of torah. but letting go of that focus, in our view, will be more damaging.
now, the facts are that the chareidim have won. we have the numbers to vote for exemptions and we got'm.
i understand that this has some horrible sounding ramifications. it means we "don't care about anything but ourselves." we are living in this country and are not willing to fight for it. we're just leeches. but hey - guess what? that was the antisemitic rhetoric for our entire existence! we were always hated because we were leeches. we've always lived in other countries while we really never cared about them. we never joined their armies (unless we were forced, which was considered a terrible tragedy), we never became "them." and it bothered our hosts to no end. i hate to say it, and i i say this hoping you can take this in context, but this isn't quite so different. this is what happens when the mission is olam haba and torah, not olam hazeh. we don't get sucked up in the noise of the world and all of its screaming "hishtadlus." we simply do what He asks, and He in turn takes care of the menial stuff. that is chareidi ideology. (again, it's not actually like other countries, but in the scale of importance to our torah learning, it is)
it may sound selfish, but it really just is a different value system. the call to fight in the army is the same as the call to fight in the american army. saving israel is simply not something worth giving up yiddishkeit for. when our numbers are really needed, hopefully the army will have no choice but to make real accommodations on our terms, limiting the spiritual damage.
that all being said, there are real problems in the chareidi community that need to be fixed. we are too insular, too selfish and too not caring. not everyone learning appreciates what they are doing - proof: they would be learning a whole lot better if they did! their shmoneh esreis would be a lot more meaningful if they did! facts are, we need to do teshuva, majorly, but the issue isn't the system. it is that we are a part of this system and not maximizing it.
"saving Israel is not worth the price." So you accept others paying the price instead. My boys have to risk their lives for yours, but yours will not risk their lives for mine. Honestly, anyone who feels that way should just leave Israel.
The fact that antisemites falsely accused Jews of being leeches etc. does not mean that criticism of charedim is ipso facto also false.
Hashem didn't ask that there be 150,000 people in yeshiva. And you certainly don't need anything remotely close to that number to "preserve Torah."
First of all I appreciate the detail and respectful tone of your response, and your honesty.
I would like to share a few points:
1- First of all, you write "the facts are that the chareidim have won. we have the numbers to vote for exemptions and we got'm."
That might be true, and certainly the Chareidi riots that take place every time there is talk of changing the system have been effective. But the fact that your community *can* do something, doesn't make it right. I would claim that by your community not serving, you are causing me direct and measurable harm. (I would also claim that you are causing your own community harm, as well, but that is a separate issue). If every community did nothing but stand up for their right to do whatever they want, we would be living in a very unpleasant place.
2- I understand your need/desire to live according to Chareidi values. In the US, it's easy (or easier)..it's the land of live and let live. As long as American Chareidim can figure out how to pay for their "lifestyle" of learning and not working, they bother no one.
In Israel it's different...both because of the army, and the size of the Chareidi population relative to the size of the overall population and economy. Chareidi non-participation has major consequences on the population as a whole.
3- I respect the importance of the Chareidi lifestyle and belief system to the average Chareidi (even if I disagree that it reflects Ratzon Hashem). Nevertheless, as sincerely held your beliefs are (we're talking mainly about the belief of the primacy of Torah study, and how it trounces just about anything else), you can't argue that everyone else should give up something (in this case it could even be their lives..in the current war) to support those beliefs. Let's say a group of "super-Nachmanim" would gradually appear (and grow over the years), believing that they need to spend 6 months a year in Uman. During that time, they of course wouldn't work, wouldn't serve in the army, and they would expect the government to support their families. Would we be obligated to do so just because of their sincerely held beliefs?
" saving israel is simply not something worth giving up yiddishkeit for. saving israel is simply not something worth giving up yiddishkeit for."
What would happen to "yiddishkeit" if Israel were not saved? And since when is going to the army "giving up yiddishkeit"?
Even though I wouldn't phrase it as such I believe there is legitimacy to the question, in what scenario will the Charedim (as a whole) decide go to war / join the army?
Each question is dealt with separately, the money one for example, is dependent on the individual, what is sustainable and how much are they willing to sacrifice. There is no rule. It is not Assur to work.
I don't get the old people one.
And there must be someone who can die... its just plain hurtful if you think that is the attitude. This idea that chareidim don't care about people dying is a slanderous lie.
Thanks for your responses.
If it is not Assur to go to work, which is for the benefit of mainly the individual himself, and is a long term commitment, why should it be Assur to go to the army, which is a shorter term interruption, and for the sake of the Klal?
Regarding the "old people", I'll explain. In almost every family there will generally be at least one elderly relative who requires care. Parts of the care are often done by paid caregivers, but much of the care generally still falls on the family...for example taking shifts at the hospital so the elderly relative won't be left alone. How does "exempt if someone else can do it" play out in such a situation? Does learning trump Kibud Horim- the sons/grandsons who are learning don't take shifts at the hospital? Or maybe they do..
I'm interested in understanding what if any situations justify a [temporary/complete or partial] break from learning, and then applying it to army service as well..
These same questions can be asked from non-chareidim as well. The difference is that chareidim make a huge oversized contribution to the spiritual welfare of the country, which is the most important contribution.
Just remember we are talking about
פיקוח נפש. End of discussion of and evaluation about mitzvot. Ridiculous
and חוצפה when soldiers are dying. Get yourself to Tzahal and stop pretzel bending.
>"BANana added that this is an example of how we are coming from two totally different universes.
I couldn’t agree more with the latter sentiment. But allow me to explain why, although he thinks that his universe is the one of Torah, I think it’s the exact opposite. My response is based on the writings of Rav Aharon Lichtenstein, ztz”l, which I think are representative on this topic for the dati-leumi perspective in general (and indeed of Chazal, and in fact of everyone until the modern phenomenon of charedi Judaism - and even then, perhaps until the late-20th century permutation of it)."
I'd like to suggest a different framing here.
You view this through the perspective of Rationalism vs. Mysticism. This split in worldviews goes back to medieval times, reaching its peak with the Maimonidean controversies, and the split between philosophy and Kabbalah.
I'd like to suggest a different framing: Biblical vs Talmudic. Early Zionists explicitly talked about "negation of the Diaspora", meaning, the last 1800 years (from the failed bar kochba rebellion) until their time, and a return to Tanakh. Rav Kook and his religious Zionist followers similarly explicitly talked about a return to Torat Eretz Yisrael. Essentially, negating aspects of the Talmud Bavli that didn't fit being a sovereign state.
In contrast, the Talmud consistently de-emphasizes the military aspects of Tanakh, and rabbinizes the figures there (see one example of this in my latest post: https://www.ezrabrand.com/p/one-day-david-went-falcon-hunting) . The supreme ideal for Chazal was learning Torah, which nowadays would be called "ivory tower", and they were indeed extremely insular, and harshly denigrate amei ha'aretz.
Yes, that's certainly another aspect of the difference.
Oh, I love this exchange! I took a screen shot before Natan deletes it.
Exactly. When we call him a kofer, it's not just a slur. It's because he is really a kofer, as we see in this exchange. And that is where his entire worldview is coming from.
And another point.
You are conceding that you are the מוציא, classical Judaism did not accept the new Jew of Zionism. Yet you still try and claim, based on external factors and tiny nuances, that Charedism is the innovation.
No, I never conceded any such thing. What I said was that post-churban Judaism never had to deal with sovereignty and its associated responsibilities.
So Shas Bavli could deal with the Industrial Revolution, galus under Moslems and Christians, Western liberalism, as well as fundamentalist cultists, but when it comes to a State of Israel, no more Shas Bavli.
Isn't that the best argument against a State of Israel?
Mr. Brand, I must thank you. You're the best thing that ever happened to RJ. Until now, Natan's game was to say, "We're the real Jews. The way Chazal wanted Jews to be. And were not kofrim. The Charedim are the impostors."
Along comes Ezra Brand and says, "Charedim are the golus, insulated Jews who follow in the footsteps of Chazal. But we're kofrim and don't believe in Chazal. We believe in 'ancient Judaism'." To which Natan responds, "You're right!"
In a few short lines, you said everything that the Charedim on this blog have been saying all these years. And Natan agreed to you! I think we can all close up shop now.
"In contrast, the Talmud consistently de-emphasizes the military aspects of Tanakh, and rabbinizes the figures there"
I think this the right moment to mention R Lichtenstein's argument that while Chazal describe biblical warriors like David as learning Torah, they do not contradict the language of Tanach that these figures also fought wars. Thus, the picture that emerges from Chazal is that these figures both fought wars and learned Torah. Unsurprisingly R Lichtenstein led an institution whose students both fight wars and learn Torah, and it seems like an approach all communities should follow.
Correct, he says that the hesder model is straight from Tanach al pi Chazal.
So basically, we have to rethink our acceptance of Talmud Bavli and all generations that accepted it and used it as the final authority in order to accept your worldview.
I don't know how anyone could have made a better argument against your opinion than that. To accept Lichtenstein's opinion, we would have to give up Judaism as we know it. Great. I wonder what his father in law would have said to that.
I just wanted to clarify here: I realize now that "negating" isn't precise. A better term would be "moderating" it, in the sense of taking into account a broader range of traditional sources, including Tanakh, Talmud Yerushalmi, Midrashim, Kabbalah, etc, with an emphasis on Eretz Yisrael and sovereignty.
In the same way that Chazal in their time heavily emphasized the aspect of Torah study, because militarism and sovereignty were less relevant, and even dangerous, taking into account all the failed rebellions against Rome, and general Roman antisemitism and heavy-handedness, or what would properly be called "colonialism" nowadays. (That term is of course loaded nowadays, and often misused and abused for political reasons, but is in fact a proper historical description of how Rome ruled, and "colony" is in fact a Latin term)
Very nice, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle. NS already agreed to your original version - which IS outright kefirah in Chazal - and the readers (critics) of this blog are more interested in what HE thinks..
It's also no coincidence that the development of Torah sheba'al peh coincided to a large extent with the destruction of the Second Temple, as has been noted by many.
How did Rav Kook negate aspects of bavli?
Mostly it's not framed as "negating" per se, but as being "complementary", including elements of "prophecy. See an overview at Hebrew Wikipedia:
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%AA_%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%A5_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C_(%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%98%D7%AA_%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%93)
In practice, it means emphasizing Eretz Yisrael and sovereignty.
For an instance where it explicitly negates the Bavli in favor of Yerushalmi, see this quote from R' Kook, in an article by Dr. Aviad Hacohen:
בהלכות התלויות בארץ הירושלמי עיקר, דנשנה בארץ ישראל שההלכות נוהגות למעשה
https://etzion.org.il/he/philosophy/great-thinkers/rav-kook/%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%AA-%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%A5-%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C-%D7%91%D7%91%D7%99%D7%AA-%D7%9E%D7%93%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%95-%D7%A9%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%99%D7%94-%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%A7
man ur 2 much about hate. you gotta focus on ur inner peace. make piece with the demons inside you. u aint goin anywer in life if u let them torment u. i dont no ur history but man u got bagage. let bygones be bygones. i luv my hebrew brothers. piece to u all
IM put out a very clear post explaining the Charedi position vis-a-vis learning and serving in the army.
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/misleibeled
Here is a post I wrote on the subject: https://open.substack.com/pub/daastorah/p/is-the-torah-divine-298
It is similar to your framing, but yours adds in a point about selfishness. I don't agree that Chareidim are selfish at all, it merely stems from the opinion that Torah learning is the most selfless thing can be done. In contrast, someone Dati would categorize someone only focusing on learning as being selfish because he is only focusing on his own improvement.
Kvod harav, i agree with most of your points, but in a note for unity: why would we have to choose between the two? We do need people who learn, and remind the rest of the nation the importance of limmud torah, and it goes without saying that there is no stronger mitzvah than saving jewish lives (here, as part of the army). Couldn't we think of ways to integrate these two parts of the nation together? The midrash says that when Yehoshua went to battle, a 3rd of the army were fighters, a third were handling logistics, and a third praying. We could certainly try to replicate that to some extent and get the different fringes of the nation together.
Something of an “apples and oranges” fallacy at work. Also, maybe a “time and place” issue. If Torah study is most important, certainly it comes in 2nd place if you have to stop to give someone the Heimlich Maneuver.! There is a time and a place…. And saying Torah study is how the world keeps going is a non-falsifiable assertion fallacy. Can’t make heads or tails of its truth content. The quintessence of how all religions operate….probably not worth arguing over as a result. Can’t be probed further…
The “apples and oranges” fallacy is also at work. Killing an enemy before he kills you is one kind of activity, Torah study another kind. Too unalike to compare. Like trying to compare Crime and Punishment by Dostoevsky with a pamphlet from your doctor on HIV. Sure, they’re both written material, but…
And yet the Charedi world excels in terms of communal responsibility within their own communities, with chesed and kindness.
An interesting issue here is to what extent the Charedi worldview is an adaptation to Diasporic Judaism, and classical and national Zionist perspectives are simply the return to a Judaism compatible with sovereignty. For me the rabbinic aversion to dead penalty and the extreme concern for hostages are scars remaining in Judaisms from a long non sovereign period. Learned helplessness.
it's easy to take Jew out of Galut, but taking galut out of the Jew...
Exactly, well-said
Agreed. The problem is hareidim still go with this outdated rabbinic stuff like the Babylonian Talmud. They need to stop with this rabbinical Judaism and return to Biblical Judaism.
there is a dictum in the Talmud אין סומלים אל הנס, We do not rely on miracles. If a hamas terrorist comes to rape your daughter, the only way to stop it is to shoot the bastard and kill him before he gets close to your daughter. That is a physical fact. If you do not do that, then the blood is on your head (for being foolish).
True!
The way the program lists "Top Comment" as the default first comment presents difficulties for those of who prefer to go through the comments and evaluate them ourselves.
you can change it to chronological
I keep changing it to chronological, but it keeps jumping back. Does not happen on any other blog I follow.