Here is what I am complaining about. You are ruining a site for normal people, and open minded people - Example: why do we all have to read this NOSSEN JESUS SLIVKIN guy. Not exactly sure where he crawled out from under, or maybe it is Friday afternoon and he is out of yeshivah and on his way to the mikvah. Or maybe it is after the mikvah where he got all the intelligent mikvah news from , and then commented here one after another. He added nothing of substance, just ranting and foolish ranting for that matter. What is even worse you answer him (I do wonder about that, what goes through your mind as you do so ).
It throws off the normal people who want to participate, but not wanting to go through all the garbage. I know a few that read the blog , and DO NOT go to the comments for exactly these reasons Many other sites have someone filtering out the crazies and nonsense, Why cant you also have that?
However, it might be you desire to have or want more comments, You might think it make the site "more popular" look at how many comment! If that is the case I can get you loads of people that don't know there stupidity ends and mental issues start, exactly like this guy Nossen Jesus - It is truly frustrating to climb through all these cooks to get through to some for or against substance of dialog..
Even so there can only be infallible Christian statements about faith and morals. And in the two thousand years of Christianity there have been only two infallible statements.
They both relate to Mary, specifically her conception (1854) and death (1950). There may be another five or so, all very inside-baseball Christian theology stuff, obvious important to some Christians but not many others, although claims have also been made for statements on abortion and female ordination.
Once again I'll express my thoughts on your writing about this topic. Once again I'll lead with the point that I mostly agree with your logic, so this is certainly not coming feom a place of opposition to the issue.
However, 1) You constantly ignore the fact that there are other legitimate considerations for a religious person to be very hesitant to join the IDF. The blame for that is on the IDF. They insisted on making the IDF a place that is anti-Torah. While there has been significant improvements because of the hard work of the many religious people who HAVE joined, it is still a struggle to stay pure in the IDF environment and they don't lovingly accommodate authentic Judaism in the IDF, full stop. This makes some gedolim continue to take a very hard opposition to it. 2) You speak with great cynicism about very great men. It sounds like you're not even fully respectful of the Vilna Goan! It is hard not to see the irony of how you're trying to argue for religious people not to be afraid of the spiritual side of their life by joining the army while you're speaking disparagingly about Torah leaders! You are a caricature of precisely why charedim don't join the IDF - they don't want to end up like you! Every valid point you made can easily be said without throwing rabbanim you disagree with under a bus. Abaye and Rava disagreed all the time, they didn't go on and on insulting each other. 3) Your approach is very irrational for a rationalist Jew. It has zero chance of appealing to the minds you'd like to change. Therefore, all it does accomplish is sowing internal hatred. This is so detrimental to the safety of Israel on a practical level, everyone knows that, a house divided will not stand. And spiritually, if you still believe that the Creator is capable of letting Israel be victorious without the help of the IDF, and if you still believe the numerous portions of the Torah that promise us success if we follow Hashem's will and failure if we don't, then your attitude doesn't help that either.
My suggestion? Keep making your point. Keep pointing out the logical inconsistencies in the opinion of those you disagree with. Some of your points are excellent! And leave the rabbi bashing out of it.
I know I sound like a broken record, but to be fair, so do you.
There are plenty of environments in the world which make it challenging for a chareidi person to "stay pure" Yet thousands pf them venture out every day because they have to make a Parnassa. The streets of Manhattan are full of chassidim as well as plenty of unsavory people. The garment industry, the jewelry industry, etc etc. Somehow its OK for them to be in an impure environment when money is concerned but not when it means protecting lives.
There is a very big difference between working and being in the army. At work you can maintain boundaries. I have been in the workforce for many years and I have maintained boundaries. You can dress differently eat differently etc. More importantly work is part of the day and then you go home. Outside of work you control your time. You can learn in the morning at night etc. The army is an all encompassing experience 24x7 where you live, eat, sleep etc. in the army. You wear the same uniform as everyone else. There is no break. And therefore it is much much harder to avoid being influenced.
The other major factor is age. A unmarried person at 18 is much more impressionable and susceptible to being influenced than someone in their late 20s who is married with a child. Charedi n generally don’t go out to work until they are married.
So if you really want to follow chazal you would need to have your children start working by 16 and getting married by 18. Do you know of any communities that do that?
Once again, you act like being a religious Jew is natural, and that no one ever drops out of it who didn't go to the IDF.
Millions of American Jews would like a word. Hey, here's another: In the year 1 there were similar numbers of Chinese and Jews. 2,000 years later, there...aren't. Why would that be? The IDF??
It sounds like you are trying to say being a religious Jew is not so important. You guys keep on making Marry Bluke's point for him, and keep on demonstrating why it would be such a bad idea for chareidim to send their sons to the army!
It's a good point that you make. For sure. But it's not entirely accurate. First, many of the same rabbis who oppose IDF service would also oppose people being in "Manhattan streets", so to speak. They believe everyone should be in kollel. It's a very extreme position and doesn't have a full equivalent in the US, but that's what this sector believes. Even more so, which is far more common, is opposition to people in their high teens being om the "streets of Manhattan". That's actually almost universal, that people shouldn't join the work force until they're in their low 20s and married. Second, going on the Manhattan streets doesn't require ome to be fully immersed in that street and that culture. Joining the army, you better be fully immersed. It becomes your life for a number of years. Finally, rabbis don't see the non-Jewish world as "threatening" to religious life because it isn't its enemy. I keep pointing out that, unfortunately, the Left in Israel openly hates Jewish orthodoxy andbTorah values and has always looked at the IDF as a place to indoctrinate for a secular lifestyle. That makes the rabbis far more combative against one over the other.
The bus taking the charedim to work in the jewelry district passed through Times Square and at that time the people, signs, and stores were a bit less then kosher. The bus could have taken a by-pass but everyone would lose 10-15 minutes of work .The asked the Rabbonim what to do. The answer was everyone should hold up a card or sefer in front of the window where they sit as they passed through, but don't lose work time.
1) You constantly ignore the fact that there are other legitimate considerations for a religious person to be very hesitant to join the IDF.
There's a difference between "hesitant" and "refuse." But I will write a post on this.
2) You speak with great cynicism about very great men.
R. Dov Landau has not only told yeshiva students not to serve in the IDF, he's instructed that they not do any chessed for soldiers or their families, and has condemned those who do so. Is he a "very great man"?
3) Your approach... has zero chance of appealing to the minds you'd like to change.
First of all, I disagree. There are many people whose minds have been changed as a result of my writings. Second, my goal with my writings is not only to directly change the minds of charedim.
>>Therefore, all it does accomplish is sowing internal hatred. This is so detrimental to the safety of Israel on a practical level, everyone knows that, a house divided will not stand.
The house already IS divided, thanks to the charedim.
>>And spiritually, if you still believe that the Creator is capable of letting Israel be victorious without the help of the IDF,
Capable? Yes. Will He? Clearly not.
>> and if you still believe the numerous portions of the Torah that promise us success if we follow Hashem's will and failure if we don't, then your attitude doesn't help that either.
Obviously, I don't feel that charedim are following Hashem's will!
Have you read How Minds Change by David McRaney? If you will, you will see that what you are doing here will cause people to double down and be less likely to agree with you. But I guess it does give a dopamine fix of "I am Right" to your supporters.
Although the posts here may not change minds directly, they do a fine job of broadening the conversation. Next time a yeshiva guy in the coffee room is hocking about eitz and gimmel or whatnot, height just have a little seed in his mind that maybe there's a third option. Additionally, it raises awareness of the issue amongst those that agree with natan, and they may be more motivated to explain to their chareidi counterparts their way of thinking in a non-provocative way (I know his posts have caused me to have these conversations).
1) You constantly ignore the fact that there are other legitimate considerations for a religious person to be very hesitant to join the IDF.
-There's a difference between "hesitant" and "refuse." But I will write a post on this.
>>> I read this post and will comment on this there
2) You speak with great cynicism about very great men.
-R. Dov Landau has not only told yeshiva students not to serve in the IDF, he's instructed that they not do any chessed for soldiers or their families, and has condemned those who do so. Is he a "very great man"?
>>> I don't know with certainty whether he's a great man or not. I've lieterally never met him. But nor do you. We do know that he learns alot of Torah. We also know that many Torah-observant people believe he's a great man. Therefore, barring evidence to the contrary, I take him being a great man at face value. Importantly, your opinion about halachic matters, especially those that form the very basis of your disagreements with him, is NOT evidence that he's not a great man. That is very circular logic. It's frighteningly surprising that a rationalist as yourself doesn't realize the violation of Logic 101. If you had, ch"v, evidence of this man engaging in what was clear Torah violation, even according to him(!), then that would be a fair way to question his righteousness.
3) Your approach... has zero chance of appealing to the minds you'd like to change.
-First of all, I disagree. There are many people whose minds have been changed as a result of my writings.
>>> You'll have to provide the way you've gathered this bit of data. If a couple of people on this blog changed their mind, which I doubt that is even the case, that wouldn't be sufficient evidence of a successful approach to changing peoples minds. Your pool of readers clearly overrepresents those who already have some degree of respect for your thinking and opinions (As I've said on multiple occasions, I'm one of them.) It is empirically factual that 1) disparaging those you disagree with and 2) completely disregarding their concerns and opinions does NOT have a snowballs chance in hell of changing their minds. Again, if you were being your typical rational self, you'd readily concede this point.
-Second, my goal with my writings is not only to directly change the minds of charedim.
>>> Ok. So what IS the point of your writings? This actually gets to the core of my issue with all of your writings on this topic. If there is zero toeles then how do you justify writing this stuff? Are you blowing off steam? Are you trying to get people who already agree with your opinion to begin to or increase their hatred of charedim? If your arguments aren't meant to improve the approach of charedim towards army service I'm not certain what you're expending your intelligence and talents on? What are you trying to accomplish? (And PLEASE don't come back with nonsensical "awareness" - there is plenty of awareness of this issue and if you're not adding anything substantive to solving the problem, then you're just another part of the problem!)
4) Therefore, all it does accomplish is sowing internal hatred. This is so detrimental to the safety of Israel on a practical level, everyone knows that, a house divided will not stand.
- The house already IS divided, thanks to the charedim.
>>> See my previous comment. No need to reiterate
5) And spiritually, if you still believe that the Creator is capable of letting Israel be victorious without the help of the IDF,
- Capable? Yes. Will He? Clearly not.
>>> Huh? Are you a prophet? You know God's plans? Or are you intimately aware of the precise weighting of victory that is coming from the brilliant tactical moves of the IDF or those that come, for example, because of "mistakes" by the enemy or "dumb luck" from Israel or which world leaders are supporting or not supporting Israel purely based on an entirely inexplicable set of politics and emotions? If God wanted, just as a low-hanging obvious scenario, the US would've responded by seeing October 7th as an unacceptable attack on a democratic state and rallied a coalition to annihilate Iran. This isn't "crazy" thinking. In fact, it SHOULD have been how the world reacted. It is ILLOGICAL that they don't react like that. Had they reacted like that the IDF could have practically sipped Mojito's while the Western world destroyed their enemy. The fact that instead they impede even the IDF from operating at full strength that is, what? You are divinely aware that this is NOT because of the sad spiritual state of many in Israel and the IDF? Or have you simply gone to that place that you don't believe Hashem plays any role in anything any more. The world is complete "teva" even when it actually seems to be going against "teva"! If that is where your beliefs lie, be transparent with us about it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would sadly have to stop reading your writings because you will have then crossed a boundary of someone who I am no longer speaking the same language with.
6) and if you still believe the numerous portions of the Torah that promise us success if we follow Hashem's will and failure if we don't, then your attitude doesn't help that either.
- Obviously, I don't feel that charedim are following Hashem's will!
>>> I'm not referring to them. Again, I agree with you that they're approaching this entirely wrong. But they're only half the problem. Even if they're entirely wrong, since we've established that your writings are accomplishing nothing more than adding hatred in klal yisrael you are ALSO violating clear Torah law. Ironically you are guilty of lo saamod in a different manner. You're also violating lifnei iveir. You're certainly violating v'ehoavta lreacha komocha, lo seileich rochil, perhaps motzi sheim ra, etc.... The bottom line is, if you care about the Jewish nation and Israel and you want an improved chance of winning the WAR, not the one you're waging against charedim, the one that's raging against people who ACTUALLY would chop your head off if given the chance, then your behaviour should be to increase righteousness. If R. Dov Landau is wrong, there will be a time after 120 that he will have to pay for that. On a practical level all you can do is use arguments that can 1) change the chareidi behaviour or 2) try to increase love amongst the nation or 3) stay silent.
Call it what you want. As Rav Fendel said in the interview that I posted the army has put soldiers in positions where their religiosity has been compromised. And his message to the chsredim was אל תפלו לפח כמו שאנחנו נפלנו, that the charedim should make demands on the army before agreeing to serve.
A pity. Their food wasn’t Mehadrin min ha Mehadrin. Only plain Mehadrin. They had to talk to a ….woman!! The horror!!! They seem fine talking to women who patronize thier businesses. It’s all BS. Laziness, cowardliness and hypocrisy.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Believe it or not, there are people who are true עובדי hashem and want to follow his will as best as they can. They look at food that is questionable as POISON. Would you eat food that had even a small chance of poisoning you? That is how they view non mehadrin food. The shulchan aruch says
“להתרחק מן העריות ובו ז סעיפים:
צריך אדם להתרחק מהנשים מאד מאד
This is not some modern charedi source, this is the shulchan aruch that we follow. So when the charedim are afraid of women in the army they are following the shulchan aruch.
You’re a fool. How many mehadrins do you need on the label? If the army has one they want two. If it has two they want three. They keep moving the goalposts. Do you think more mehadrins gets you to a higher level in olam haba?
As for taking to women in the army or god forbid taking orders from them, I guarantee you they are far more
Professional than the hareidim…
So tell the chareidim not to cater to female customers. It’s assur…
This is exactly why the charedim don’t join the army. Because you belittle their concerns. Since you have no problem talking to women then no one should. It doesn’t work like that.
As believing Jews we serve god not our country. Now it may be that the way to serve god is to serve the country, and we may be obligated by god to serve the country but that is a very different starting point then simply saying we serve the country.
See above "You are needed by *your people* and your country."
As believing Jews, we care about our fellow Jews.
Ever wonder why miluim soldiers, even those who are always late in their civilian lives, will do anything to get back to their base on time after a short home leave. Because they realize that if they are late, someone else in their unit won't be able to go home.
Serving in the army is all about love for one's fellow Jew
Yes absolutely. Everyone has a role. Not everyone serves in combat. Many soldiers are doing other jobs. Charedim believe that they are serving god and their people by learning Torah and doing mitzvos. You can disagree with their perspective and think they are wrong, but you can’t simply dismiss it.
I'm not "dismissing" it - I demonstrate that it has no basis in Judaism or logic, and they themselves are not consistent about this belief, nor do they care to stake anything on it. Hence, it's just something they profess to believe in order to assuage their conscience, and is neither valid nor the underlying reason.
But when learning Torah and serving in the army compete, simply because of the time element (doing Mitzvot need never compete with either role), who should decide which is more important? It shouldn't be based on what type of head covering one wears. Soldiers have opportunities to express preferences during the intake process, but they don't choose their role in the army. The army decides based on its needs.
Us Orthodox Jews are very concerned with times (zmanim) and quantities (shiurim). Has any Hareidi authority published a *source-based* analysis regarding Shiurim of army service/learning. How many hours should a Yeshiva student learn? How many Bachurei Yeshiva are needed for the role of Torah learning? What percentage? At what ages? The Hareidim can't just say "this is our role because it's what we (or our Rabbis) want".
"who should decide which is more important? It shouldn't be based on what type of head covering one wears... "
And this is exactly why we have rabbis and why we have Gedolim.
"Us Orthodox Jews are very concerned with times (zmanim) and quantities (shiurim)."
This is a very simplistic statement which requires considerably more nuance. If I showed you halachos without these shiurim you are demanding, would you accept it?
"Has any Hareidi authority published a *source-based* analysis regarding Shiurim of army service/learning. How many hours should a Yeshiva student learn? How many Bachurei Yeshiva are needed for the role of Torah learning? What percentage? At what ages?"
Tel that to all the Jewish veterans of numerous countries over the millennia. Let alone we are supposed to support and be good citizens of the countries where we live according to Chazal. How much more so for our own country.
Based on what is the current IDF an anti Torah place? Got in there religious and if something, got out of there even more committed about Torah and mitzvot, as were many of my fellow colleagues. I also saw many non religious soldiers coming closer to their yiddishkeit, not that they became Shomrei mitzvot.
For someone to fear their child may come out of the IDF non religious means that they have very little trust in their own child and the society they were brought up in. Afraid that as soon as their child sees there is more to Judaism that what they grew up with, they may not come back very excited about it. I have served with a number of Charedim, who stayed Charedi through and through.
So please say you don't want yourself or your kid to share in the national burden, or take any risks to defend the country. Don't put it as though the IDF were the place Jews go to become reform, it is dishonesty added to the cowardly behaviour displayed. I have seen the bully attitude of Charedim storming IDF bases in the first person, and while I respect every Jew, the behaviour of some Charedim is antagonistic to Judaism.
You need to learn to answer the question being asked. Adding lots of extra words in pursuit of your beloved red herring doesn't fool anyone. You are deflecting because you can't or won't address the argument.
Ah "Haha just serious!" The battle cry of incel edge lords, people past their intellectual depth, and neo Nazi trolls. If you're going to be bad at this sort of thing choose better role models
"You constantly ignore the fact that there are other legitimate considerations for a religious person to be very hesitant to join the IDF."
Irrelevant.
The reason why non-learners are forbidden from following the halacha of הכל יוצאים, has nothing to do with the "legitimate considerations" of which you claim. The reason is that it's דעת תורה. Never mind that according to the דעת תורה of Rav Shach non-learners must serve. Because according to דעת תורה, non-learner must not serve.
Just one side point. You said, "Abaye and Rava disagreed all the time, they didn't go on and on insulting each other". -- This is a misconception of sorts. In the realm of the Torah battlefield, there are many such insults between Amoraim.
I worded my statement very specifically - they did NOT go on and on insulting each other, as I stated. Yes, there are occasional seemingly insulting statements made against each other but from HUNDREDS of disputes there are less than 5 sharp statements recorded.
"But his lengthy and empty presentation featuring only five minutes of actual content that presented only two sources. And at the end, he wrapped up by explaining that it ultimately all boils down to one point: We have to follow the Gedolim, and in particular Rav Dov Landau, because he is the Gadol HaDor. And as such, he has supernatural guidance, such that even if he seems to be wrong, he must be right."
"He’d speak about milchemes mitzva and its underlying rationale. He’d speak about Lo saamod al dam reyecha (“Do not stand by your brother’s blood”) and how gemilas chasadim is one of the pillars of the world. He’d speak about nosei b’ol (sharing the burden) and national responsibility."
Those sources don't prove anything about the question at hand.
"But note that Rav Eliezer Melamed makes a powerful statement in the opposite direction - that any rabbi who does not have a thorough and fully accountable handling of serious issues such as national defense cannot be called a Gadol."
That was a more innocent time. Now it's The Pope Song. And come to think of it the affection of the Pope and the Gedolin towards monsters and their oppression of families who speak up about child sexual abuse is nauseatingly similar
And in the non charedi world it’s blind obedience to the “experts”. In the discussion about going to war with Lebanon, the same people who are saying don’t blindly follow the gedolim are advocating blindly following the defense experts because they are the experts.
Deciding to believe the people who are known to have the most knowledge about a thing isn't "blindly" following them. They're accepted as experts for a reason. And they usually give reasons for their decisions, unlike the haredi gedolim who just say jump and expect their followers to already be in the air
Sure. When you go to your oncologist and he recommends a course of treatment does he explain in detail how he chose that treatment and not some other. Does he go through all the medical literature with you and explain everything. The answer is no. You trust him asan expert. Believe it or not Torah is a very complicated and difficult system to master. Because we learn many things that they know more then they do. The more I learn the more I realize how much I don’t know and how much real gedolim do know. These people have literally dedicated their lives to understanding the Torah.
Of course the military experts that Mr. Bluke was discussing have no ideological lens. Only chareidi experts have an ideological lens. Not your military experts, not your rabbinic experts. Do really believe such ridiculous things? No chance.
No, not everyone does that. Some people acknowledge that there have been different approaches to Torah over history. Some people re-appraise their own approach. And most importantly, some people think about how their approach will impact the country as a whole. I've yet to hear a SINGLE charedi rabbi even ADDRESS the question of how the charedi approach to work and army can be sustainable with a growing population.
That is silly. People like Rav Chaim Kamievsky, Rav Ovadya, Rav Herschel Shachter (who I know personally) have learned everything. They literally know kol hatorah kula. You have no idea how much they know. And you belittle them when you haven’t even learned through Shas bavli once biyun let alone yerushalmi, medrashim, tur shulchan aruch etc.
You're really accusing rabbi Slifkin of being an ignoramus? Why are you following him if you have no respect for him as a rabbi? Only haredi Rabbis deserve respect, and not dati leumi ones?
How can they pasken on business when they never worked for a living? How can they pasken on medicine or technology if they never studied science or physics? Book learning only is useless in Halacha.
OK but a good doctor explains at least the basics to the patient. I've yet to hear any convincing reason from haredi gedolim for skipping the army beyond a few very selectively chosen agadot and misquotes. I don't expect 4 years of yeshiva training as an explanation. But they give zero convincing explanation at all
I agree with you. The haredi world has not explained their position well. I think the reason is they don’t feel the need because the people in their camp don’t need it and they aren’t trying to convince anyone else.
It's not that I don't understand their reasons, it's that they've barely given any. The dati leumi world, on the other hand, has a lot to say about why it's important that yeshiva students should serve
As I said, I've seen a lot of explanation for why yeshiva students should serve from the dati leumi world, but almost no actual reason from the haredim against it.
As I said, I've seen a lot of explanation for why yeshiva students should serve from the dati leumi world, but almost no actual reason from the haredim against it.
The sati leumi Rabbis have literal volumes of work explaining the importance of serving the army. The haredi gedolim have a pamphlet, at best. Why am I meant to trust or follow the haredim exactly?
See my comment above about why the medical profession is trusted. Not comparable. And besides, an oncologist wont opine on COVID, whether to emigrate to Palestine, or who to vote for.
Just about every oncologist is capable of detailed, evidence-based arguments to support their treatment decisions and can point to detailed arguments published by other oncologists that are even better-argued and more-detailed.
Rabbi Slifkin is pointing out that we have seen no such thing from haredi Gedolim and spokespersons.
In response to Michael Lieber: First yes the army can do a better job of accommodating all religious soldiers. As a grandfather of several soldiers soldiers it can be done. More important for a milchemet mitzva everyone goes out, having it hard is not an excuse. The army is a dangerous place. My grandson in Gaza has lost several close friends and has been near exploding tanks. If the charedi politicians were interested they could insist on changes in the army. They prefer not to so that they have an excuse why not to go to the army
I'm ready to make a bold claim and take the flak for it, but let's see if you can honestly refute it.
Don't get me wrong, I see a world of a difference between hesder and chareidi yeshivas, but it appears that both the hesder and chareidi populations feel that limud Torah is more important than army service. They both feel that as long as the situation allows for them to not be serving, it is preferable to be learning than to be in the army.
If that were not the case, why would the hesder programs cut down on the army service portion? They can do plenty of learning in the years of hesder and still serve the standard term of service. It would be really hard to argue that they would be any worse as soldiers if they didn't learn as much as they did in hesder.
And I'm pretty sure they would cut down on the time learning if they felt there was truly a need for it.
When chareidim speak about the army being a spiritual risk and therefore not a place for them, that is for those who are not learning (I'm working within R' Neugershal's approach). For learners, though, that's not even a factor. They believe learning is more important than army and they are not convinced there is a legitimate need (and yes, even if they were convinced, they still probably wouldn't serve because of the risk excuse. And I personally think it's a lousy excuse if anyone cares.)
"t appears that both the hesder and chareidi populations feel that limud Torah is more important than army service." No, the hesder population feel (as does the IDF) that their system enhances their army service, and the charedi population feel that their limud Torah replaces their army service. They couldn't be more different.
Chareidim do not believe that learning Torah is more important - they want datiim to serve rather than learn! Chareidim avoid IDF service for different reasons.
It's about creating better people all-around. Better people at both bein adam lemakom and bein adam l'chavero. And seeing how these are connected to each other. As one hesder soldier told me recently, he sees being in the army not just about discharging his duty to society, but about being a better Jew.
I don't see much of a point of continuing this conversation.
I hear what you're saying and that's a very nice attitude for what hesder is trying to do, but it's a weak point with regards to the point I am making because they can accomplish all this without compromising on the time they are serving. I feel like you are twisting yourself into a pretzel to try to avoid admitting the obvious that they too see a value of using their time to learn Torah over army service when it is possible and it's ok to have other people pick up the slack for this relatively short period of time.
" they can accomplish all this without compromising on the time they are serving." Of course, they could do three years of army service sandwiched by their yeshiva years. But that would be a seven-year commitment which fewer people would be ready to do. Meanwhile, the five-year commitment that they do make, with the nature of the service that they do, ends up being roughly equal in value to the IDF.
To be sure, some disagree. But if you disagree, then the disparity with charedim is all the more outrageous.
And Datiim want secular combat soldiers to serve more than them to pick up their slack. They believe learning Torah entitles them to have abbreviated service, even if it increases the burden on others.
Our Dati brothers also believe in the tremendous value of Torah, over and above army service! This is why they are willing to serve for less time! This is a great point in their favor, and something that we can learn from!
> (And don’t claim that it’s preferable for a soldier to be killed than to become secular. Few charedim actually seriously believe this.)
Huh?
I don't know if I should laugh or cry.
Are there really more than a few DL that *don't* believe this?!
Am I missing something?!
This concept is certainly a defining character of Charedim (and frum Jewry throughout the ages).
If you insist on such laughably mischaracterizations of Charedim anything you write about them will be one big joke. No one who knows anything about Charedim will take you seriously.
I echo Yehoshua's thought's here. You're saying that you don't believe this? And that in your assessment, Datiim don't believe this (never mind your spurious and frankly silly psychological evaluations of chareidim)?? That would be very sad, but also very revealing. Everything has a root cause, and if there is any merit to your implication that Datiim don't share this fundamental Jewish belief with chareidim, that explains a good deal of the schism between us. And this is something that we must strive to rectify. However, I am hoping that your implication is without merit, and that Datiim have the same fundamental, core beliefs as we do.
Definitely cry. This is a great example of what I said above that there is no serious discussion being had here, just a one sided viewpoint which will accomplish nothing. A shame.
To all my colleagues wasting their time and energy debating the OP, I can only wonder; why do you dignify his theorizing with theoretical debates of your own?
The facts are clear in this study: From 1990-2015 the Charedim grew from 3% of the Jews in Israel to 9.5%, while the DL shrunk from 12% to 10.8%. Therefore, to the Charedim the mere thought of following in the footsteps of the DL is inconceivable.
And to those who deeply desire that Charedim serve in the army, there is only one simple way to achieve this, and it certainly isn't through writing more articles.
You must show the Charedim the way.
The DL community must show a sizable community that has managed to show significant demographic growth and low attrition for a significant amount of time there is nothing to talk about. Please don't come to me with your anecdotes of individuals or even individual institutions (i.e., hesder yeshivos which obviously represent the most religious individuals of the DL community). Show me actual data representing a full community. It doesn't have to be the entire DL community. It can be a Chardal community or a hesder mercaz community. But it must be a sizeable community that can be distinguishable as having succeeded in maintaining significant demographic growth with low attrition for a significant amount of time. I can guarantee you that if there will be such clearly documented lasting success the Charedim will be joining in droves. Until then there is nothing to talk about. Period. End of Sentence.
(Meanwhile, I would just point out that even Yehoshua Pfeffer, perhaps the loudest and strongest voice for integrating Charedim, says that the army is not ready for Charedim, see the minute 30:40 of this interview https://18forty.org/podcast/yehoshua-pfeffer-israel-army-haredim/ As Marty Bluke writes elsewhere in this thread, there are DL rabbanim who concur.)
And BTW, this applies to most of the various criticisms of the Charedim constantly recycled on this blog. Certainly Charedim (especially individual Charedim) would love to change and do better, and they have in many ways (for instance, they have been integrating into the economy, especially the women). However, they are very wary of following the path of the DL considering the statistics of that community. Those who would like to bring about change must realize that there is one -and only one- key to accomplishing this. They must show the Charedim that it is possible to create a community without the negatives of the Charedim, and yet with low attrition and high demographic growth for a significant time period.
Without that all the talk on this blog is just hot air.
(One small example: The OP asks why Charedim are not enthusiastically adopting new experiments at Charedi hesder yeshivos, such as those of Reb Dovid Leibel. This question exhibits a complete ignorance of a most basic Charedi value; that of conservatism and wariness of new experiments. However, if these experiments are shown to be successful there certainly will be a widespread adoption of these methods.)
This has been your argument for a while, and you definitely know more about the facts than me (good job with the research btw, I did some digging just now myself and you seem to be right about the overall numbers...), and I see why this is really, really important. But it's hard to say that's our "excuse" for not serving, because we are doing so much already and that they are actually doing less by not having kids. Technically we serve and the army if that were the right thing to do, and continue our demographics and keep on having more kids. The question is what is the right path forward, and that is what our job is to follow.
In my view, the idea of *needing* to serve, the root of the argument of Natan and co. comes from this hashkafa of "ahavas yisroel" and all these other lofty (and very true) ideas, but like most wrong ideas, they aren't bad in themselves, only they lack the bigger picture.
Chareidim have a mission, one that has large backing in Rishonim and Acharonim, and that is to promote avodas Hashem in the sense that the individual's focus is supposed to be a personal kirvas Elokim, learning care about Hashem's kavod in this world more than anything else. The DL community for the most part has more secular standards. The extreme right wingers who basically share this Chareidi outlook, only they think that Zionism is a mitzva de'oraysa and conquering land in EY is the same as Esrog and Matzah, end up sharing a certain commonality with the rest of the more secularized community in that they appreciate the medina, but they are more our brothers than theirs. People like Natan like mixing this up and pretending that the whole DL community is like this; they are not. Most of them are in fact more secularized and the medina is important and fighting is important because of secular-leaning logic. Which we disagree with.
We are not secular. We don't do things because they "feel right" to us. We do things because Hashem says so. Not always is it so clear what Hashem wants, and we have people who know what he wants from years of experience in learning His Torah. Those who spent some time in the Yeshiva system *really* getting it, what yiraas Shamayim means, what kirvas Elokim means, have an idea of what we're preserving. Those who didn't have the proper experience, some who think they're insiders, don't get it and think we are a joke with nothing behind it all. Going to the army has maalos, but at what expense? The yeshiva system which is just about the only place in the world which espouses avodas Hashem in this manner, for all it's flaws, is the most important institution that exists in this world to produce and instill this hashkafa (like rabbeinu Yonah famously says). We simply can't give this up. It's telling that those who have knocked people like Reb Chaim Kanievsky, malach Elokim, off his pedistal, are the ones who are advocating for the closure of yeshivos as we know them. They don't know what avodas Hashem is (the way we mean in). And they claim we don't represent true Judaism, when they don't even know what yiraas Shamayim is!
So while the Reb Chaim Kanievsky model isn't for everybody, no question about it, the yiraas Shamayim model is, and all the different true approaches of Judaism, chasidism, kabbalism, the hirscheans, maimonidians, gershonians, rishonim hapashtanim, those who follow Rav Kook, and so on, all of them share the common core denominator or yiraas Shamayim being the ikkur. within this model there truly are many approaches and in this regard, charedim may be too insular. but on this blog, the OP and like minded followers miss this entire point and think they can change the charedim without dealing with this core. they stand no chance because they are worse off in our minds that we are in theirs.
The question does become, however, what do we do about the need for more people in the army? But it won't even be a question until we can learn the facts of Judaism first. And btw, once we acknowledge these core values, the what to do's become a whole lot simpler.
Serving in the army has nothing to do with ahavas Yisroel. It is a basic human responsibility (ומקומו בפרק השותפין בב"ב) like paying taxes (aside from the מצוה חיובית of מלחמת מצווה, which is not just about conquering land in EY but also כדי להציל ישראל מיד צר הבא עליהם). "Avodas Hashem" and "Bitul Torah" can never excuse one from these responsibilities. Yes, it is a מצווה, and it is no less a מצווה than Esrog and Matzah. No, I have no idea what you are talking about.
>Technically we serve and the army if that were the right thing to do and continue our demographics and keep on having more kids.
You are missing the whole point. Who says this is possible (under the current situation that the army is quite hostile to religion, as was quoted from Yehoshua Pfeffer and Rav Fendel, 2 people who are very much pro serving in the army)? We have no data from any community showing that this is possible. The data I quoted shows that the DL community is doing a horrible job, not just they aren't growing but they have a terrible attrition rate.
> (btw, I did some digging just now myself and you seem to be right about the overall numbers...)
If you have the time, keep digging. I find it fascinating that we really are the only culture in the world that lives within modern society and maintains high fertility. This is why many גוים are realizing that הא עמא בלחודיהון עתידין דיחסנון עלמא, as I referenced.
btw i also don't understand how it's possible that enlarging the army isn't the minimum hishtadlus. it doesn't seem implausible even if it can't be proven to work.
i'll also add parenthetically that if you're right that army service is of no help, that's really your answer to the army question, that it's a lost cause anyways. the fact that our growing demographics is the way to win this war and turning the blame on them is a separate discussion in which they aren't quite as culpable for choosing a more secular, smaller family lifestyle as the problem they have with us shirking actual responsibilities al hatzad that they are right.
When I said ahavas yisroel i was quoting people on this blog. yes it is much more than that; it's a social responsibility, and i understand the frustration of those on this blog who oppose us. but they, over and over again, fail entirely to see our side as having any validity whatsoever. they don't see the picture that charedim have toward chinuch and avoda and if they would, they could at least see our point as well. i am still hoping natan lets me write a guest post explaining our sociology and i can flesh this out in more detail, but he doesn't seem interested so don't hold your breath
I should add that I am emphasizing the importance of demographic not merely, or even mostly, as a religious imperative, but rather as the most critical need for Israel. As I have emphasized many times on this blog, the core of the current crisis is demographics. Had the entire Israel followed the example of the Charedim, even had they done so only from 1990-2015 (the time period covered by the study in the previous comment), there would be 3.17 times the current number of Jews in Israel. In such a scenario, Israel would have no problem annexing Gaza. (It follows that Hamas would never have had the audacity to attack Israel, knowing that an annexation would follow immediately). And had there not been Charedim in Israel we would be soon facing a scenario where two thirds of the people "from the river to the sea" were not Jewish.
To paraphrase a statement someone once made "If they don’t even acknowledge the debt (to those who are dealing with the core of the crisis), then it’s clear that it’s not about the actual crisis; it’s about selfishness and spite against the Charedim".
I don't think any of this is novel. It is the most basic foundation of understanding the current crisis. Read any good analysis of the subject (including even that of the OP) and you'll notice this. For more, anyone can go back and see what I wrote in many previous threads, especially these conversations with the OP.
The truth is that this is not just about Israel and Jews. All over the world people are realizing that the culture most adapted to thrive in the modern world, and to take over the world is the Haredim. Here is a quote from one renowned non-Jewish economist https://www.overcomingbias.com/p/rational-culture-choice (8th paragraph) He is not alone. Many non-religious non-Jews throughout the world are recognizing that the future of the modern world is as stated in the Targum (במדבר כג,ט) הא עמא בלחודיהון עתידין דיחסנון עלמא, as there is no other culture capable of sustaining high fertility in a modern environment. (https://woodfromeden.substack.com/p/israels-forgotten-victim-card/comment/64081105) It is extremely sad that some Jews are willfully blinding themselves to this fact.
He is not alone. Many non-religious non-Jews throughout the world are recognizing that the future of the modern world is as stated in the Targum (במדבר כג,ט) הא עמא בלחודיהון עתידין דיחסנון עלמא, as there is no other culture capable of sustaining high fertility in a modern environment. It is extremely sad that some Jews are willfully blinding themselves to this fact.
Whoa, some amazing inisghts here! I totally hear your point about the demographics! Yes, it is all about demographics! But how does this speak to the OPs posts, which are sadly to demonize chareidim? He says they don't contribute anything (which is totally false), but if you go with this assumption, what good does it do to have have a large population which doesn't contribute anything?
> He says they don't contribute anything (which is totally false), but if you go with this assumption, what good does it do to have a large population which doesn't contribute anything?
Yes. It is obviously totally false. The Charedi girls had the highest PISA score last year. About the same percentage of Charedi women work as the rest the public, and they earn about 75% of what the rest of the women in the country earn, despite their younger average age and their large families. And the Charedim will obviously only continue to improve (though sadly hate speech as that on this blog will cause them to push back).
But the entire idea that demographic growth is only productive based on their contribution is the core of the problem. Of course, as frum Jews we ascribe infinite value to every mitzvah, but even from a secular POV this is obviously false. Secular society has absorbed the value of human right to the extent that they consider Israel to be occupying Gaza immorally as they don't give the Arabs citizenship. Why don't they give them citizenship? Because there are too many of them compared to the number of Jews and it would be impossible to have a functioning *Jewish* government. So, by rebelling against the classic Jewish value of life for its own intrinsic worth the OP is directly contributing to the core of the current crisis.
"it ultimately all boils down to one point: We have to follow the Gedolim,"
What's distressing is that this ought to be foreign to Torah Jews. I don't mean deferring to Torah scholars, per se, but to the use of דעת תורה to shut down debate, or rather negating legitimate questions based on traditional sources.
If we see a psak in the ש"ע that goes against the majority of the רמב"ם, רי"ף & רא"ש we ask. Even if we were to defer to the ש"ע in any case, we would still ask. And we would spend hours trying to find a reason for the psak we have accepted.
'The funny part is they see this over and over - the fallacy of asking people who have not a clue about the issues, and are led into the dark.
We lost many Jewish lives, and many children's lives, in WWII over this. However, even though they see it, notice it, cry over it, but somehow they still come back for more, and make the exact same mistakes. Shouldn't it be elementary, once you put your hand into the fire the brain should use logic with you not to do that again.
A Rav you should ask questions pertaining to halacha , Isser, V'hetter, Hechsher etc. which they are expert in, Anything else leave for an actual expert in that field.
What does Hashem want us to do - ask as someone that knows noting of the issue or ask an expert.?
What expert in Torah, philosophy, and scholarship ..?? He rambled on like Trump at a press conference never addressing the elephant in the room. Sounds like a fraud to me. He’s useful to the Haredim because he’s telegenic.
Let's take ancient proverbs and attribute them to significant biblical figures. Next, we'll analyze these proverbs and parables as complex, ciphered texts. From there, we'll draw mystical and ideological conclusions, often based on exaggerated interpretations. Welcome to Rabbinical Judaism!
Neugroshel is just another outreach rabbi, repeating the usual rhetoric about mysticism, Torah codes, homiletic interpretations, dubious science surveys, and Ultra-Orthodox ideology. He's essentially the Ashkenazi equivalent of Zamir Cohen, nothing more.
Can you write an article about how the IDF tries to satisfy the Dati Lumi as far mixing men & women in the army and why this does not satsify the charedim
I go to the medical expert for medical questions. If the rabbi gives medical advice against the standard medical opinion you better ignore it. If a posek would say that he spoke with defense officials and understands the needs of the army and other important variables and based on that he offers a psak it would be another matter. Michael Avraham has written a 20 page article (Hebrew I have it) going through all the charedi arguments and disputed them. So one would need to disagree with his or others arguments. A gadol siimply making pronouncement without explaining why milchemet mitzvah etc. doesn't apply is going. beyond his area of expertise. These are all modern concepts that one follows a gadol on non-halachic issues especially without a detailed halachic reasoning
Infallibility is a dangerous Christian concept, not a Jewish one.
That's for everybody else! But I'm infallible of course!
Pardon me Rabbi Slivkin,
Here is what I am complaining about. You are ruining a site for normal people, and open minded people - Example: why do we all have to read this NOSSEN JESUS SLIVKIN guy. Not exactly sure where he crawled out from under, or maybe it is Friday afternoon and he is out of yeshivah and on his way to the mikvah. Or maybe it is after the mikvah where he got all the intelligent mikvah news from , and then commented here one after another. He added nothing of substance, just ranting and foolish ranting for that matter. What is even worse you answer him (I do wonder about that, what goes through your mind as you do so ).
It throws off the normal people who want to participate, but not wanting to go through all the garbage. I know a few that read the blog , and DO NOT go to the comments for exactly these reasons Many other sites have someone filtering out the crazies and nonsense, Why cant you also have that?
However, it might be you desire to have or want more comments, You might think it make the site "more popular" look at how many comment! If that is the case I can get you loads of people that don't know there stupidity ends and mental issues start, exactly like this guy Nossen Jesus - It is truly frustrating to climb through all these cooks to get through to some for or against substance of dialog..
Saul, I block such people, but sometimes it takes a while for me to notice (such as this guy who posted while it was Shabbos in Israel)
Hey, if you are so open minded, then open your heart to accept NOSSEN JESUS SLIVKIN!
You are against Army just like the Pope who says turn the other cheek.
Just to let you know, we posted simultaneously. I didn't see your comment till after I posted mine.
Either great minds or... it's magic!
Even so there can only be infallible Christian statements about faith and morals. And in the two thousand years of Christianity there have been only two infallible statements.
Curious. What are those two statements? "Always look on the bright side of life" isn't one of them.
No, Charlie is wrong, that's the third one.
They both relate to Mary, specifically her conception (1854) and death (1950). There may be another five or so, all very inside-baseball Christian theology stuff, obvious important to some Christians but not many others, although claims have also been made for statements on abortion and female ordination.
I was thinking more in the line of "The truth will set you free." I've always found that verse most ironic coming from that book.
There are a few others. Not worth the bother.
Infallibility refers to things Popes say, not what the New Testament says.
Not true. According to Judaism, G-d is infallible.
Human infallibility, Wisenheimer.
Thank you for clarifying. What does "Wisenheimer" mean?
Once again I'll express my thoughts on your writing about this topic. Once again I'll lead with the point that I mostly agree with your logic, so this is certainly not coming feom a place of opposition to the issue.
However, 1) You constantly ignore the fact that there are other legitimate considerations for a religious person to be very hesitant to join the IDF. The blame for that is on the IDF. They insisted on making the IDF a place that is anti-Torah. While there has been significant improvements because of the hard work of the many religious people who HAVE joined, it is still a struggle to stay pure in the IDF environment and they don't lovingly accommodate authentic Judaism in the IDF, full stop. This makes some gedolim continue to take a very hard opposition to it. 2) You speak with great cynicism about very great men. It sounds like you're not even fully respectful of the Vilna Goan! It is hard not to see the irony of how you're trying to argue for religious people not to be afraid of the spiritual side of their life by joining the army while you're speaking disparagingly about Torah leaders! You are a caricature of precisely why charedim don't join the IDF - they don't want to end up like you! Every valid point you made can easily be said without throwing rabbanim you disagree with under a bus. Abaye and Rava disagreed all the time, they didn't go on and on insulting each other. 3) Your approach is very irrational for a rationalist Jew. It has zero chance of appealing to the minds you'd like to change. Therefore, all it does accomplish is sowing internal hatred. This is so detrimental to the safety of Israel on a practical level, everyone knows that, a house divided will not stand. And spiritually, if you still believe that the Creator is capable of letting Israel be victorious without the help of the IDF, and if you still believe the numerous portions of the Torah that promise us success if we follow Hashem's will and failure if we don't, then your attitude doesn't help that either.
My suggestion? Keep making your point. Keep pointing out the logical inconsistencies in the opinion of those you disagree with. Some of your points are excellent! And leave the rabbi bashing out of it.
I know I sound like a broken record, but to be fair, so do you.
There are plenty of environments in the world which make it challenging for a chareidi person to "stay pure" Yet thousands pf them venture out every day because they have to make a Parnassa. The streets of Manhattan are full of chassidim as well as plenty of unsavory people. The garment industry, the jewelry industry, etc etc. Somehow its OK for them to be in an impure environment when money is concerned but not when it means protecting lives.
There is a very big difference between working and being in the army. At work you can maintain boundaries. I have been in the workforce for many years and I have maintained boundaries. You can dress differently eat differently etc. More importantly work is part of the day and then you go home. Outside of work you control your time. You can learn in the morning at night etc. The army is an all encompassing experience 24x7 where you live, eat, sleep etc. in the army. You wear the same uniform as everyone else. There is no break. And therefore it is much much harder to avoid being influenced.
The other major factor is age. A unmarried person at 18 is much more impressionable and susceptible to being influenced than someone in their late 20s who is married with a child. Charedi n generally don’t go out to work until they are married.
According to Halacha and Chazal, which it seems the Hareidim ignore once again. You are supposed to start work BEFORE you MARRY.
And you are also supposed to get married at 18 which everyone ignores although the charedim get married earlier then other communities.
So if you really want to follow chazal you would need to have your children start working by 16 and getting married by 18. Do you know of any communities that do that?
Both don’t work today. But either way it’s not only Halacha it’s common sense to be able to support a wife before you get married.
So…they keep one Halacha and not the other….
Exactly.
One word responses are stupid
Indeed.
" And therefore it is much much harder to avoid being influenced. "
The answer is simple. You're a big boy: Don't get influenced.
Really. Why don’t you tell that to all those dati leumi guys who left the army without kippot. All those guys that Rav Fendel said were sent צאן לטבח
Once again, you act like being a religious Jew is natural, and that no one ever drops out of it who didn't go to the IDF.
Millions of American Jews would like a word. Hey, here's another: In the year 1 there were similar numbers of Chinese and Jews. 2,000 years later, there...aren't. Why would that be? The IDF??
It sounds like you are trying to say being a religious Jew is not so important. You guys keep on making Marry Bluke's point for him, and keep on demonstrating why it would be such a bad idea for chareidim to send their sons to the army!
It's a good point that you make. For sure. But it's not entirely accurate. First, many of the same rabbis who oppose IDF service would also oppose people being in "Manhattan streets", so to speak. They believe everyone should be in kollel. It's a very extreme position and doesn't have a full equivalent in the US, but that's what this sector believes. Even more so, which is far more common, is opposition to people in their high teens being om the "streets of Manhattan". That's actually almost universal, that people shouldn't join the work force until they're in their low 20s and married. Second, going on the Manhattan streets doesn't require ome to be fully immersed in that street and that culture. Joining the army, you better be fully immersed. It becomes your life for a number of years. Finally, rabbis don't see the non-Jewish world as "threatening" to religious life because it isn't its enemy. I keep pointing out that, unfortunately, the Left in Israel openly hates Jewish orthodoxy andbTorah values and has always looked at the IDF as a place to indoctrinate for a secular lifestyle. That makes the rabbis far more combative against one over the other.
Exactly
Reminds me of the funny story of yesteryears.
The bus taking the charedim to work in the jewelry district passed through Times Square and at that time the people, signs, and stores were a bit less then kosher. The bus could have taken a by-pass but everyone would lose 10-15 minutes of work .The asked the Rabbonim what to do. The answer was everyone should hold up a card or sefer in front of the window where they sit as they passed through, but don't lose work time.
Stories that never happened. They could have used window shades.
1) You constantly ignore the fact that there are other legitimate considerations for a religious person to be very hesitant to join the IDF.
There's a difference between "hesitant" and "refuse." But I will write a post on this.
2) You speak with great cynicism about very great men.
R. Dov Landau has not only told yeshiva students not to serve in the IDF, he's instructed that they not do any chessed for soldiers or their families, and has condemned those who do so. Is he a "very great man"?
3) Your approach... has zero chance of appealing to the minds you'd like to change.
First of all, I disagree. There are many people whose minds have been changed as a result of my writings. Second, my goal with my writings is not only to directly change the minds of charedim.
>>Therefore, all it does accomplish is sowing internal hatred. This is so detrimental to the safety of Israel on a practical level, everyone knows that, a house divided will not stand.
The house already IS divided, thanks to the charedim.
>>And spiritually, if you still believe that the Creator is capable of letting Israel be victorious without the help of the IDF,
Capable? Yes. Will He? Clearly not.
>> and if you still believe the numerous portions of the Torah that promise us success if we follow Hashem's will and failure if we don't, then your attitude doesn't help that either.
Obviously, I don't feel that charedim are following Hashem's will!
Have you read How Minds Change by David McRaney? If you will, you will see that what you are doing here will cause people to double down and be less likely to agree with you. But I guess it does give a dopamine fix of "I am Right" to your supporters.
Although the posts here may not change minds directly, they do a fine job of broadening the conversation. Next time a yeshiva guy in the coffee room is hocking about eitz and gimmel or whatnot, height just have a little seed in his mind that maybe there's a third option. Additionally, it raises awareness of the issue amongst those that agree with natan, and they may be more motivated to explain to their chareidi counterparts their way of thinking in a non-provocative way (I know his posts have caused me to have these conversations).
1) You constantly ignore the fact that there are other legitimate considerations for a religious person to be very hesitant to join the IDF.
-There's a difference between "hesitant" and "refuse." But I will write a post on this.
>>> I read this post and will comment on this there
2) You speak with great cynicism about very great men.
-R. Dov Landau has not only told yeshiva students not to serve in the IDF, he's instructed that they not do any chessed for soldiers or their families, and has condemned those who do so. Is he a "very great man"?
>>> I don't know with certainty whether he's a great man or not. I've lieterally never met him. But nor do you. We do know that he learns alot of Torah. We also know that many Torah-observant people believe he's a great man. Therefore, barring evidence to the contrary, I take him being a great man at face value. Importantly, your opinion about halachic matters, especially those that form the very basis of your disagreements with him, is NOT evidence that he's not a great man. That is very circular logic. It's frighteningly surprising that a rationalist as yourself doesn't realize the violation of Logic 101. If you had, ch"v, evidence of this man engaging in what was clear Torah violation, even according to him(!), then that would be a fair way to question his righteousness.
3) Your approach... has zero chance of appealing to the minds you'd like to change.
-First of all, I disagree. There are many people whose minds have been changed as a result of my writings.
>>> You'll have to provide the way you've gathered this bit of data. If a couple of people on this blog changed their mind, which I doubt that is even the case, that wouldn't be sufficient evidence of a successful approach to changing peoples minds. Your pool of readers clearly overrepresents those who already have some degree of respect for your thinking and opinions (As I've said on multiple occasions, I'm one of them.) It is empirically factual that 1) disparaging those you disagree with and 2) completely disregarding their concerns and opinions does NOT have a snowballs chance in hell of changing their minds. Again, if you were being your typical rational self, you'd readily concede this point.
-Second, my goal with my writings is not only to directly change the minds of charedim.
>>> Ok. So what IS the point of your writings? This actually gets to the core of my issue with all of your writings on this topic. If there is zero toeles then how do you justify writing this stuff? Are you blowing off steam? Are you trying to get people who already agree with your opinion to begin to or increase their hatred of charedim? If your arguments aren't meant to improve the approach of charedim towards army service I'm not certain what you're expending your intelligence and talents on? What are you trying to accomplish? (And PLEASE don't come back with nonsensical "awareness" - there is plenty of awareness of this issue and if you're not adding anything substantive to solving the problem, then you're just another part of the problem!)
4) Therefore, all it does accomplish is sowing internal hatred. This is so detrimental to the safety of Israel on a practical level, everyone knows that, a house divided will not stand.
- The house already IS divided, thanks to the charedim.
>>> See my previous comment. No need to reiterate
5) And spiritually, if you still believe that the Creator is capable of letting Israel be victorious without the help of the IDF,
- Capable? Yes. Will He? Clearly not.
>>> Huh? Are you a prophet? You know God's plans? Or are you intimately aware of the precise weighting of victory that is coming from the brilliant tactical moves of the IDF or those that come, for example, because of "mistakes" by the enemy or "dumb luck" from Israel or which world leaders are supporting or not supporting Israel purely based on an entirely inexplicable set of politics and emotions? If God wanted, just as a low-hanging obvious scenario, the US would've responded by seeing October 7th as an unacceptable attack on a democratic state and rallied a coalition to annihilate Iran. This isn't "crazy" thinking. In fact, it SHOULD have been how the world reacted. It is ILLOGICAL that they don't react like that. Had they reacted like that the IDF could have practically sipped Mojito's while the Western world destroyed their enemy. The fact that instead they impede even the IDF from operating at full strength that is, what? You are divinely aware that this is NOT because of the sad spiritual state of many in Israel and the IDF? Or have you simply gone to that place that you don't believe Hashem plays any role in anything any more. The world is complete "teva" even when it actually seems to be going against "teva"! If that is where your beliefs lie, be transparent with us about it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would sadly have to stop reading your writings because you will have then crossed a boundary of someone who I am no longer speaking the same language with.
6) and if you still believe the numerous portions of the Torah that promise us success if we follow Hashem's will and failure if we don't, then your attitude doesn't help that either.
- Obviously, I don't feel that charedim are following Hashem's will!
>>> I'm not referring to them. Again, I agree with you that they're approaching this entirely wrong. But they're only half the problem. Even if they're entirely wrong, since we've established that your writings are accomplishing nothing more than adding hatred in klal yisrael you are ALSO violating clear Torah law. Ironically you are guilty of lo saamod in a different manner. You're also violating lifnei iveir. You're certainly violating v'ehoavta lreacha komocha, lo seileich rochil, perhaps motzi sheim ra, etc.... The bottom line is, if you care about the Jewish nation and Israel and you want an improved chance of winning the WAR, not the one you're waging against charedim, the one that's raging against people who ACTUALLY would chop your head off if given the chance, then your behaviour should be to increase righteousness. If R. Dov Landau is wrong, there will be a time after 120 that he will have to pay for that. On a practical level all you can do is use arguments that can 1) change the chareidi behaviour or 2) try to increase love amongst the nation or 3) stay silent.
"They insisted on making the IDF a place that is anti-Torah. "
They did not.
Call it what you want. As Rav Fendel said in the interview that I posted the army has put soldiers in positions where their religiosity has been compromised. And his message to the chsredim was אל תפלו לפח כמו שאנחנו נפלנו, that the charedim should make demands on the army before agreeing to serve.
A pity. Their food wasn’t Mehadrin min ha Mehadrin. Only plain Mehadrin. They had to talk to a ….woman!! The horror!!! They seem fine talking to women who patronize thier businesses. It’s all BS. Laziness, cowardliness and hypocrisy.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Believe it or not, there are people who are true עובדי hashem and want to follow his will as best as they can. They look at food that is questionable as POISON. Would you eat food that had even a small chance of poisoning you? That is how they view non mehadrin food. The shulchan aruch says
“להתרחק מן העריות ובו ז סעיפים:
צריך אדם להתרחק מהנשים מאד מאד
This is not some modern charedi source, this is the shulchan aruch that we follow. So when the charedim are afraid of women in the army they are following the shulchan aruch.
You could capitalize pronouns of God: "...follow His will..."
You’re a fool. How many mehadrins do you need on the label? If the army has one they want two. If it has two they want three. They keep moving the goalposts. Do you think more mehadrins gets you to a higher level in olam haba?
As for taking to women in the army or god forbid taking orders from them, I guarantee you they are far more
Professional than the hareidim…
So tell the chareidim not to cater to female customers. It’s assur…
This is exactly why the charedim don’t join the army. Because you belittle their concerns. Since you have no problem talking to women then no one should. It doesn’t work like that.
There should be no hesitation. You are needed by your people and country. You serve. Period.
As believing Jews we serve god not our country. Now it may be that the way to serve god is to serve the country, and we may be obligated by god to serve the country but that is a very different starting point then simply saying we serve the country.
See above "You are needed by *your people* and your country."
As believing Jews, we care about our fellow Jews.
Ever wonder why miluim soldiers, even those who are always late in their civilian lives, will do anything to get back to their base on time after a short home leave. Because they realize that if they are late, someone else in their unit won't be able to go home.
Serving in the army is all about love for one's fellow Jew
Yes absolutely. Everyone has a role. Not everyone serves in combat. Many soldiers are doing other jobs. Charedim believe that they are serving god and their people by learning Torah and doing mitzvos. You can disagree with their perspective and think they are wrong, but you can’t simply dismiss it.
I'm not "dismissing" it - I demonstrate that it has no basis in Judaism or logic, and they themselves are not consistent about this belief, nor do they care to stake anything on it. Hence, it's just something they profess to believe in order to assuage their conscience, and is neither valid nor the underlying reason.
They have a conscience?
I would have said it's how they rationalize to the world their selfishness and sense of entitlement.
Mr Slifkin you don't know what "demonstrate" means. I knew Jesus, and you ain't Jesus.
As I have demonstrated, that is not a belief that they care to think about too deeply.
You never demonstrated that. It's just something you profess to have demonstrated in order to assuage your conscience, but it has no basis in truth.
" Charedim believe that they are serving god and their people by learning Torah and doing mitzvos. "
Except those who don't learn and avoid מלחמת מצוה.
But when learning Torah and serving in the army compete, simply because of the time element (doing Mitzvot need never compete with either role), who should decide which is more important? It shouldn't be based on what type of head covering one wears. Soldiers have opportunities to express preferences during the intake process, but they don't choose their role in the army. The army decides based on its needs.
Us Orthodox Jews are very concerned with times (zmanim) and quantities (shiurim). Has any Hareidi authority published a *source-based* analysis regarding Shiurim of army service/learning. How many hours should a Yeshiva student learn? How many Bachurei Yeshiva are needed for the role of Torah learning? What percentage? At what ages? The Hareidim can't just say "this is our role because it's what we (or our Rabbis) want".
About you're last question, yes, there is a long and extensive tshuva from Reb Moshe about it. very clear.
"who should decide which is more important? It shouldn't be based on what type of head covering one wears... "
And this is exactly why we have rabbis and why we have Gedolim.
"Us Orthodox Jews are very concerned with times (zmanim) and quantities (shiurim)."
This is a very simplistic statement which requires considerably more nuance. If I showed you halachos without these shiurim you are demanding, would you accept it?
"Has any Hareidi authority published a *source-based* analysis regarding Shiurim of army service/learning. How many hours should a Yeshiva student learn? How many Bachurei Yeshiva are needed for the role of Torah learning? What percentage? At what ages?"
Has any Dati authority published this?
They aren’t. And yes I can others are dying for them. They are cowards.
I died for everybody's sins. The least you can do is thank me.
Tel that to all the Jewish veterans of numerous countries over the millennia. Let alone we are supposed to support and be good citizens of the countries where we live according to Chazal. How much more so for our own country.
Gd says, Lo Saamod Al Dam Re'echa so it is one in the same.
God says a lot of things and the key is to understand how to balance them.
Sure. So you agree that the idea of serving in Tzahal does have religious meaning. Good.
Balance? That's for acrobats in the circus!
"As believing Jews we serve god not our country. "
תורה תורה חגרי שק
Based on what is the current IDF an anti Torah place? Got in there religious and if something, got out of there even more committed about Torah and mitzvot, as were many of my fellow colleagues. I also saw many non religious soldiers coming closer to their yiddishkeit, not that they became Shomrei mitzvot.
For someone to fear their child may come out of the IDF non religious means that they have very little trust in their own child and the society they were brought up in. Afraid that as soon as their child sees there is more to Judaism that what they grew up with, they may not come back very excited about it. I have served with a number of Charedim, who stayed Charedi through and through.
So please say you don't want yourself or your kid to share in the national burden, or take any risks to defend the country. Don't put it as though the IDF were the place Jews go to become reform, it is dishonesty added to the cowardly behaviour displayed. I have seen the bully attitude of Charedim storming IDF bases in the first person, and while I respect every Jew, the behaviour of some Charedim is antagonistic to Judaism.
You need to learn to answer the question being asked. Adding lots of extra words in pursuit of your beloved red herring doesn't fool anyone. You are deflecting because you can't or won't address the argument.
You need to learn to lighten up, silly old man.
Ah "Haha just serious!" The battle cry of incel edge lords, people past their intellectual depth, and neo Nazi trolls. If you're going to be bad at this sort of thing choose better role models
"You constantly ignore the fact that there are other legitimate considerations for a religious person to be very hesitant to join the IDF."
Irrelevant.
The reason why non-learners are forbidden from following the halacha of הכל יוצאים, has nothing to do with the "legitimate considerations" of which you claim. The reason is that it's דעת תורה. Never mind that according to the דעת תורה of Rav Shach non-learners must serve. Because according to דעת תורה, non-learner must not serve.
Just one side point. You said, "Abaye and Rava disagreed all the time, they didn't go on and on insulting each other". -- This is a misconception of sorts. In the realm of the Torah battlefield, there are many such insults between Amoraim.
They were able to say such things, we aren't.
I worded my statement very specifically - they did NOT go on and on insulting each other, as I stated. Yes, there are occasional seemingly insulting statements made against each other but from HUNDREDS of disputes there are less than 5 sharp statements recorded.
"But his lengthy and empty presentation featuring only five minutes of actual content that presented only two sources. And at the end, he wrapped up by explaining that it ultimately all boils down to one point: We have to follow the Gedolim, and in particular Rav Dov Landau, because he is the Gadol HaDor. And as such, he has supernatural guidance, such that even if he seems to be wrong, he must be right."
I'm not sure what he said in the lecture you listened to. But he cited plenty of sources here,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtyMYPh0rB0 and doesn't appeal to authority.
"He’d speak about milchemes mitzva and its underlying rationale. He’d speak about Lo saamod al dam reyecha (“Do not stand by your brother’s blood”) and how gemilas chasadim is one of the pillars of the world. He’d speak about nosei b’ol (sharing the burden) and national responsibility."
Those sources don't prove anything about the question at hand.
"But note that Rav Eliezer Melamed makes a powerful statement in the opposite direction - that any rabbi who does not have a thorough and fully accountable handling of serious issues such as national defense cannot be called a Gadol."
Funny, he doesn't provide any sources.
As an aside, these guys probably have sources too. Remember torat ha'melech?https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/must-stop-white-house-calls-on-israel-to-act-against-settler-violence-after-deadly-rampage/
Oy, settler violence? Terrible!
If I want infallibility, I'll take the Pope and do the Vatican Rag.
That was a more innocent time. Now it's The Pope Song. And come to think of it the affection of the Pope and the Gedolin towards monsters and their oppression of families who speak up about child sexual abuse is nauseatingly similar
"Bow your head with great respect and/Genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!"
Wow!! A great song from the past.
I find that very offensive. Jesus was not a Catholic!
The way I see it, a big problem in the haredi world is the blind obedience to gedolim - I've heard it referred to very aptly as "gadolatry"
And in the non charedi world it’s blind obedience to the “experts”. In the discussion about going to war with Lebanon, the same people who are saying don’t blindly follow the gedolim are advocating blindly following the defense experts because they are the experts.
Deciding to believe the people who are known to have the most knowledge about a thing isn't "blindly" following them. They're accepted as experts for a reason. And they usually give reasons for their decisions, unlike the haredi gedolim who just say jump and expect their followers to already be in the air
Sure. When you go to your oncologist and he recommends a course of treatment does he explain in detail how he chose that treatment and not some other. Does he go through all the medical literature with you and explain everything. The answer is no. You trust him asan expert. Believe it or not Torah is a very complicated and difficult system to master. Because we learn many things that they know more then they do. The more I learn the more I realize how much I don’t know and how much real gedolim do know. These people have literally dedicated their lives to understanding the Torah.
They've dedicated their lives to interpreting Torah through a particular ideological lens. That's all.
Of course the military experts that Mr. Bluke was discussing have no ideological lens. Only chareidi experts have an ideological lens. Not your military experts, not your rabbinic experts. Do really believe such ridiculous things? No chance.
Everyone does that. What if their lens is the right one?
No, not everyone does that. Some people acknowledge that there have been different approaches to Torah over history. Some people re-appraise their own approach. And most importantly, some people think about how their approach will impact the country as a whole. I've yet to hear a SINGLE charedi rabbi even ADDRESS the question of how the charedi approach to work and army can be sustainable with a growing population.
It’s not. They refuse to see things except as theoretical. Not practical.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/expert-in-torah
That is silly. People like Rav Chaim Kamievsky, Rav Ovadya, Rav Herschel Shachter (who I know personally) have learned everything. They literally know kol hatorah kula. You have no idea how much they know. And you belittle them when you haven’t even learned through Shas bavli once biyun let alone yerushalmi, medrashim, tur shulchan aruch etc.
You're really accusing rabbi Slifkin of being an ignoramus? Why are you following him if you have no respect for him as a rabbi? Only haredi Rabbis deserve respect, and not dati leumi ones?
How can they pasken on business when they never worked for a living? How can they pasken on medicine or technology if they never studied science or physics? Book learning only is useless in Halacha.
OK but a good doctor explains at least the basics to the patient. I've yet to hear any convincing reason from haredi gedolim for skipping the army beyond a few very selectively chosen agadot and misquotes. I don't expect 4 years of yeshiva training as an explanation. But they give zero convincing explanation at all
I agree with you. The haredi world has not explained their position well. I think the reason is they don’t feel the need because the people in their camp don’t need it and they aren’t trying to convince anyone else.
The gedolim do explain. If you don't understand their chashivus for the "lightest" halacha in shulchan aruch, is that on them?
It's not that I don't understand their reasons, it's that they've barely given any. The dati leumi world, on the other hand, has a lot to say about why it's important that yeshiva students should serve
As I said, I've seen a lot of explanation for why yeshiva students should serve from the dati leumi world, but almost no actual reason from the haredim against it.
As I said, I've seen a lot of explanation for why yeshiva students should serve from the dati leumi world, but almost no actual reason from the haredim against it.
He sure does and if he does t I recommend you see another doctor.
The sati leumi Rabbis have literal volumes of work explaining the importance of serving the army. The haredi gedolim have a pamphlet, at best. Why am I meant to trust or follow the haredim exactly?
See my comment above about why the medical profession is trusted. Not comparable. And besides, an oncologist wont opine on COVID, whether to emigrate to Palestine, or who to vote for.
Just about every oncologist is capable of detailed, evidence-based arguments to support their treatment decisions and can point to detailed arguments published by other oncologists that are even better-argued and more-detailed.
Rabbi Slifkin is pointing out that we have seen no such thing from haredi Gedolim and spokespersons.
Which equals avoda zarah, proving again that the religion of the Haredim is not Judaism.
In response to Michael Lieber: First yes the army can do a better job of accommodating all religious soldiers. As a grandfather of several soldiers soldiers it can be done. More important for a milchemet mitzva everyone goes out, having it hard is not an excuse. The army is a dangerous place. My grandson in Gaza has lost several close friends and has been near exploding tanks. If the charedi politicians were interested they could insist on changes in the army. They prefer not to so that they have an excuse why not to go to the army
I'm ready to make a bold claim and take the flak for it, but let's see if you can honestly refute it.
Don't get me wrong, I see a world of a difference between hesder and chareidi yeshivas, but it appears that both the hesder and chareidi populations feel that limud Torah is more important than army service. They both feel that as long as the situation allows for them to not be serving, it is preferable to be learning than to be in the army.
If that were not the case, why would the hesder programs cut down on the army service portion? They can do plenty of learning in the years of hesder and still serve the standard term of service. It would be really hard to argue that they would be any worse as soldiers if they didn't learn as much as they did in hesder.
And I'm pretty sure they would cut down on the time learning if they felt there was truly a need for it.
When chareidim speak about the army being a spiritual risk and therefore not a place for them, that is for those who are not learning (I'm working within R' Neugershal's approach). For learners, though, that's not even a factor. They believe learning is more important than army and they are not convinced there is a legitimate need (and yes, even if they were convinced, they still probably wouldn't serve because of the risk excuse. And I personally think it's a lousy excuse if anyone cares.)
Does anyone disagree with this observation?
"t appears that both the hesder and chareidi populations feel that limud Torah is more important than army service." No, the hesder population feel (as does the IDF) that their system enhances their army service, and the charedi population feel that their limud Torah replaces their army service. They couldn't be more different.
Chareidim do not believe that learning Torah is more important - they want datiim to serve rather than learn! Chareidim avoid IDF service for different reasons.
Do you honestly believe that the underpinning of all the learning in hesder is to create better soldiers?
Look, I am not exactly in position to say otherwise, but that sounds really really far-fetched to me
It's about creating better people all-around. Better people at both bein adam lemakom and bein adam l'chavero. And seeing how these are connected to each other. As one hesder soldier told me recently, he sees being in the army not just about discharging his duty to society, but about being a better Jew.
I don't see much of a point of continuing this conversation.
I hear what you're saying and that's a very nice attitude for what hesder is trying to do, but it's a weak point with regards to the point I am making because they can accomplish all this without compromising on the time they are serving. I feel like you are twisting yourself into a pretzel to try to avoid admitting the obvious that they too see a value of using their time to learn Torah over army service when it is possible and it's ok to have other people pick up the slack for this relatively short period of time.
" they can accomplish all this without compromising on the time they are serving." Of course, they could do three years of army service sandwiched by their yeshiva years. But that would be a seven-year commitment which fewer people would be ready to do. Meanwhile, the five-year commitment that they do make, with the nature of the service that they do, ends up being roughly equal in value to the IDF.
To be sure, some disagree. But if you disagree, then the disparity with charedim is all the more outrageous.
And Datiim want secular combat soldiers to serve more than them to pick up their slack. They believe learning Torah entitles them to have abbreviated service, even if it increases the burden on others.
Great point Mr. (or Mrs.?)
Can'tWeAllJustGetAlong!!!
Our Dati brothers also believe in the tremendous value of Torah, over and above army service! This is why they are willing to serve for less time! This is a great point in their favor, and something that we can learn from!
In response to the post in which comments are banned, and to Joe Berry's comment there:
Yes. There is such a study tracking the attrition rate and the demographic growth of different communities. Here it is.
https://chotam.org.il/%D7%A2%D7%9C-%D7%A1%D7%93%D7%A8-%D7%94%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9D/%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%90%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%94%D7%93%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%92%D7%A8%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%94-%D7%A9%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%93%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA/
And here is an interesting article on the subject.
https://mida.org.il/2016/01/26/%D7%94%D7%A0%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%94%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%9C%D7%94%D7%A1%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%93-%D7%94%D7%97%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%94-%D7%94%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%93%D7%99%D7%AA/
And finally, re this parenthetical statement:
> (And don’t claim that it’s preferable for a soldier to be killed than to become secular. Few charedim actually seriously believe this.)
Huh?
I don't know if I should laugh or cry.
Are there really more than a few DL that *don't* believe this?!
Am I missing something?!
This concept is certainly a defining character of Charedim (and frum Jewry throughout the ages).
If you insist on such laughably mischaracterizations of Charedim anything you write about them will be one big joke. No one who knows anything about Charedim will take you seriously.
No. The defining characteristic of Jews through the ages was to be killed rather than renounce Judaism. That's a very different thing.
I echo Yehoshua's thought's here. You're saying that you don't believe this? And that in your assessment, Datiim don't believe this (never mind your spurious and frankly silly psychological evaluations of chareidim)?? That would be very sad, but also very revealing. Everything has a root cause, and if there is any merit to your implication that Datiim don't share this fundamental Jewish belief with chareidim, that explains a good deal of the schism between us. And this is something that we must strive to rectify. However, I am hoping that your implication is without merit, and that Datiim have the same fundamental, core beliefs as we do.
Exactly.
I wonder if the Op can name 5 DL rabbanim who agree with him.
They don't believe גילוי עריות is יהרג ואל יעבור?
They don't believe that entering a בית מינות is יהרג ואל יעבור (whereas entering a בית ע"ז is not), because שאני מינות דמשכא?
They don't believe in גדול המחטיאו יותר מן ההורגו?
?
??
???
????
And Charedim agree with this??
How ridiculous. You don't seriously believe there is a difference. There is no way.
Definitely cry. This is a great example of what I said above that there is no serious discussion being had here, just a one sided viewpoint which will accomplish nothing. A shame.
> there is no serious discussion being had here, just a one sided viewpoint which will accomplish nothing.
Yes.
I think this is the defining characteristic of this blog.
To all my colleagues wasting their time and energy debating the OP, I can only wonder; why do you dignify his theorizing with theoretical debates of your own?
The facts are clear in this study: From 1990-2015 the Charedim grew from 3% of the Jews in Israel to 9.5%, while the DL shrunk from 12% to 10.8%. Therefore, to the Charedim the mere thought of following in the footsteps of the DL is inconceivable.
And to those who deeply desire that Charedim serve in the army, there is only one simple way to achieve this, and it certainly isn't through writing more articles.
You must show the Charedim the way.
The DL community must show a sizable community that has managed to show significant demographic growth and low attrition for a significant amount of time there is nothing to talk about. Please don't come to me with your anecdotes of individuals or even individual institutions (i.e., hesder yeshivos which obviously represent the most religious individuals of the DL community). Show me actual data representing a full community. It doesn't have to be the entire DL community. It can be a Chardal community or a hesder mercaz community. But it must be a sizeable community that can be distinguishable as having succeeded in maintaining significant demographic growth with low attrition for a significant amount of time. I can guarantee you that if there will be such clearly documented lasting success the Charedim will be joining in droves. Until then there is nothing to talk about. Period. End of Sentence.
(Meanwhile, I would just point out that even Yehoshua Pfeffer, perhaps the loudest and strongest voice for integrating Charedim, says that the army is not ready for Charedim, see the minute 30:40 of this interview https://18forty.org/podcast/yehoshua-pfeffer-israel-army-haredim/ As Marty Bluke writes elsewhere in this thread, there are DL rabbanim who concur.)
And BTW, this applies to most of the various criticisms of the Charedim constantly recycled on this blog. Certainly Charedim (especially individual Charedim) would love to change and do better, and they have in many ways (for instance, they have been integrating into the economy, especially the women). However, they are very wary of following the path of the DL considering the statistics of that community. Those who would like to bring about change must realize that there is one -and only one- key to accomplishing this. They must show the Charedim that it is possible to create a community without the negatives of the Charedim, and yet with low attrition and high demographic growth for a significant time period.
Without that all the talk on this blog is just hot air.
(One small example: The OP asks why Charedim are not enthusiastically adopting new experiments at Charedi hesder yeshivos, such as those of Reb Dovid Leibel. This question exhibits a complete ignorance of a most basic Charedi value; that of conservatism and wariness of new experiments. However, if these experiments are shown to be successful there certainly will be a widespread adoption of these methods.)
This has been your argument for a while, and you definitely know more about the facts than me (good job with the research btw, I did some digging just now myself and you seem to be right about the overall numbers...), and I see why this is really, really important. But it's hard to say that's our "excuse" for not serving, because we are doing so much already and that they are actually doing less by not having kids. Technically we serve and the army if that were the right thing to do, and continue our demographics and keep on having more kids. The question is what is the right path forward, and that is what our job is to follow.
In my view, the idea of *needing* to serve, the root of the argument of Natan and co. comes from this hashkafa of "ahavas yisroel" and all these other lofty (and very true) ideas, but like most wrong ideas, they aren't bad in themselves, only they lack the bigger picture.
Chareidim have a mission, one that has large backing in Rishonim and Acharonim, and that is to promote avodas Hashem in the sense that the individual's focus is supposed to be a personal kirvas Elokim, learning care about Hashem's kavod in this world more than anything else. The DL community for the most part has more secular standards. The extreme right wingers who basically share this Chareidi outlook, only they think that Zionism is a mitzva de'oraysa and conquering land in EY is the same as Esrog and Matzah, end up sharing a certain commonality with the rest of the more secularized community in that they appreciate the medina, but they are more our brothers than theirs. People like Natan like mixing this up and pretending that the whole DL community is like this; they are not. Most of them are in fact more secularized and the medina is important and fighting is important because of secular-leaning logic. Which we disagree with.
We are not secular. We don't do things because they "feel right" to us. We do things because Hashem says so. Not always is it so clear what Hashem wants, and we have people who know what he wants from years of experience in learning His Torah. Those who spent some time in the Yeshiva system *really* getting it, what yiraas Shamayim means, what kirvas Elokim means, have an idea of what we're preserving. Those who didn't have the proper experience, some who think they're insiders, don't get it and think we are a joke with nothing behind it all. Going to the army has maalos, but at what expense? The yeshiva system which is just about the only place in the world which espouses avodas Hashem in this manner, for all it's flaws, is the most important institution that exists in this world to produce and instill this hashkafa (like rabbeinu Yonah famously says). We simply can't give this up. It's telling that those who have knocked people like Reb Chaim Kanievsky, malach Elokim, off his pedistal, are the ones who are advocating for the closure of yeshivos as we know them. They don't know what avodas Hashem is (the way we mean in). And they claim we don't represent true Judaism, when they don't even know what yiraas Shamayim is!
So while the Reb Chaim Kanievsky model isn't for everybody, no question about it, the yiraas Shamayim model is, and all the different true approaches of Judaism, chasidism, kabbalism, the hirscheans, maimonidians, gershonians, rishonim hapashtanim, those who follow Rav Kook, and so on, all of them share the common core denominator or yiraas Shamayim being the ikkur. within this model there truly are many approaches and in this regard, charedim may be too insular. but on this blog, the OP and like minded followers miss this entire point and think they can change the charedim without dealing with this core. they stand no chance because they are worse off in our minds that we are in theirs.
The question does become, however, what do we do about the need for more people in the army? But it won't even be a question until we can learn the facts of Judaism first. And btw, once we acknowledge these core values, the what to do's become a whole lot simpler.
Serving in the army has nothing to do with ahavas Yisroel. It is a basic human responsibility (ומקומו בפרק השותפין בב"ב) like paying taxes (aside from the מצוה חיובית of מלחמת מצווה, which is not just about conquering land in EY but also כדי להציל ישראל מיד צר הבא עליהם). "Avodas Hashem" and "Bitul Torah" can never excuse one from these responsibilities. Yes, it is a מצווה, and it is no less a מצווה than Esrog and Matzah. No, I have no idea what you are talking about.
>Technically we serve and the army if that were the right thing to do and continue our demographics and keep on having more kids.
You are missing the whole point. Who says this is possible (under the current situation that the army is quite hostile to religion, as was quoted from Yehoshua Pfeffer and Rav Fendel, 2 people who are very much pro serving in the army)? We have no data from any community showing that this is possible. The data I quoted shows that the DL community is doing a horrible job, not just they aren't growing but they have a terrible attrition rate.
> (btw, I did some digging just now myself and you seem to be right about the overall numbers...)
If you have the time, keep digging. I find it fascinating that we really are the only culture in the world that lives within modern society and maintains high fertility. This is why many גוים are realizing that הא עמא בלחודיהון עתידין דיחסנון עלמא, as I referenced.
btw i also don't understand how it's possible that enlarging the army isn't the minimum hishtadlus. it doesn't seem implausible even if it can't be proven to work.
i'll also add parenthetically that if you're right that army service is of no help, that's really your answer to the army question, that it's a lost cause anyways. the fact that our growing demographics is the way to win this war and turning the blame on them is a separate discussion in which they aren't quite as culpable for choosing a more secular, smaller family lifestyle as the problem they have with us shirking actual responsibilities al hatzad that they are right.
Sorry I haven't responded yet, I'll have more time later or tomorrow bln. Mainly to the first point
Soo...?
שתיקה כהודאה?
Oy, thanks for the reminder!
When I said ahavas yisroel i was quoting people on this blog. yes it is much more than that; it's a social responsibility, and i understand the frustration of those on this blog who oppose us. but they, over and over again, fail entirely to see our side as having any validity whatsoever. they don't see the picture that charedim have toward chinuch and avoda and if they would, they could at least see our point as well. i am still hoping natan lets me write a guest post explaining our sociology and i can flesh this out in more detail, but he doesn't seem interested so don't hold your breath
I should add that I am emphasizing the importance of demographic not merely, or even mostly, as a religious imperative, but rather as the most critical need for Israel. As I have emphasized many times on this blog, the core of the current crisis is demographics. Had the entire Israel followed the example of the Charedim, even had they done so only from 1990-2015 (the time period covered by the study in the previous comment), there would be 3.17 times the current number of Jews in Israel. In such a scenario, Israel would have no problem annexing Gaza. (It follows that Hamas would never have had the audacity to attack Israel, knowing that an annexation would follow immediately). And had there not been Charedim in Israel we would be soon facing a scenario where two thirds of the people "from the river to the sea" were not Jewish.
To paraphrase a statement someone once made "If they don’t even acknowledge the debt (to those who are dealing with the core of the crisis), then it’s clear that it’s not about the actual crisis; it’s about selfishness and spite against the Charedim".
I don't think any of this is novel. It is the most basic foundation of understanding the current crisis. Read any good analysis of the subject (including even that of the OP) and you'll notice this. For more, anyone can go back and see what I wrote in many previous threads, especially these conversations with the OP.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-core-of-the-conflict/comment/55776012 https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-core-of-the-conflict/comment/55776012 https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-core-of-the-conflict/comment/55856776
I also recommend these 2 posts from a someone who is not at all a fan of Charedim ,https://nonzionism.substack.com/p/the-basic-problem-with-zionism https://nonzionism.substack.com/p/why-is-israel-fertile and this comment from someone who doesn't seem to be Orthodox https://nonzionism.substack.com/p/the-case-for-bibi/comment/64139969 last paragraphs
The truth is that this is not just about Israel and Jews. All over the world people are realizing that the culture most adapted to thrive in the modern world, and to take over the world is the Haredim. Here is a quote from one renowned non-Jewish economist https://www.overcomingbias.com/p/rational-culture-choice (8th paragraph) He is not alone. Many non-religious non-Jews throughout the world are recognizing that the future of the modern world is as stated in the Targum (במדבר כג,ט) הא עמא בלחודיהון עתידין דיחסנון עלמא, as there is no other culture capable of sustaining high fertility in a modern environment. (https://woodfromeden.substack.com/p/israels-forgotten-victim-card/comment/64081105) It is extremely sad that some Jews are willfully blinding themselves to this fact.
He is not alone. Many non-religious non-Jews throughout the world are recognizing that the future of the modern world is as stated in the Targum (במדבר כג,ט) הא עמא בלחודיהון עתידין דיחסנון עלמא, as there is no other culture capable of sustaining high fertility in a modern environment. It is extremely sad that some Jews are willfully blinding themselves to this fact.
Whoa, some amazing inisghts here! I totally hear your point about the demographics! Yes, it is all about demographics! But how does this speak to the OPs posts, which are sadly to demonize chareidim? He says they don't contribute anything (which is totally false), but if you go with this assumption, what good does it do to have have a large population which doesn't contribute anything?
> He says they don't contribute anything (which is totally false), but if you go with this assumption, what good does it do to have a large population which doesn't contribute anything?
Yes. It is obviously totally false. The Charedi girls had the highest PISA score last year. About the same percentage of Charedi women work as the rest the public, and they earn about 75% of what the rest of the women in the country earn, despite their younger average age and their large families. And the Charedim will obviously only continue to improve (though sadly hate speech as that on this blog will cause them to push back).
But the entire idea that demographic growth is only productive based on their contribution is the core of the problem. Of course, as frum Jews we ascribe infinite value to every mitzvah, but even from a secular POV this is obviously false. Secular society has absorbed the value of human right to the extent that they consider Israel to be occupying Gaza immorally as they don't give the Arabs citizenship. Why don't they give them citizenship? Because there are too many of them compared to the number of Jews and it would be impossible to have a functioning *Jewish* government. So, by rebelling against the classic Jewish value of life for its own intrinsic worth the OP is directly contributing to the core of the current crisis.
See also here https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/trust-the-magic/comment/65982590 and especially here https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/trust-the-magic/comment/65983628
You can simply put it this way.
If we would be able to annex Gaza the war would be far simpler and far less army service would be necessary.
"it ultimately all boils down to one point: We have to follow the Gedolim,"
What's distressing is that this ought to be foreign to Torah Jews. I don't mean deferring to Torah scholars, per se, but to the use of דעת תורה to shut down debate, or rather negating legitimate questions based on traditional sources.
If we see a psak in the ש"ע that goes against the majority of the רמב"ם, רי"ף & רא"ש we ask. Even if we were to defer to the ש"ע in any case, we would still ask. And we would spend hours trying to find a reason for the psak we have accepted.
Why not here?
Wonderful article Rabbi Slikin,
'The funny part is they see this over and over - the fallacy of asking people who have not a clue about the issues, and are led into the dark.
We lost many Jewish lives, and many children's lives, in WWII over this. However, even though they see it, notice it, cry over it, but somehow they still come back for more, and make the exact same mistakes. Shouldn't it be elementary, once you put your hand into the fire the brain should use logic with you not to do that again.
A Rav you should ask questions pertaining to halacha , Isser, V'hetter, Hechsher etc. which they are expert in, Anything else leave for an actual expert in that field.
What does Hashem want us to do - ask as someone that knows noting of the issue or ask an expert.?
What expert in Torah, philosophy, and scholarship ..?? He rambled on like Trump at a press conference never addressing the elephant in the room. Sounds like a fraud to me. He’s useful to the Haredim because he’s telegenic.
Let's take ancient proverbs and attribute them to significant biblical figures. Next, we'll analyze these proverbs and parables as complex, ciphered texts. From there, we'll draw mystical and ideological conclusions, often based on exaggerated interpretations. Welcome to Rabbinical Judaism!
Neugroshel is just another outreach rabbi, repeating the usual rhetoric about mysticism, Torah codes, homiletic interpretations, dubious science surveys, and Ultra-Orthodox ideology. He's essentially the Ashkenazi equivalent of Zamir Cohen, nothing more.
Rabbi Slifkin
Can you write an article about how the IDF tries to satisfy the Dati Lumi as far mixing men & women in the army and why this does not satsify the charedim
I go to the medical expert for medical questions. If the rabbi gives medical advice against the standard medical opinion you better ignore it. If a posek would say that he spoke with defense officials and understands the needs of the army and other important variables and based on that he offers a psak it would be another matter. Michael Avraham has written a 20 page article (Hebrew I have it) going through all the charedi arguments and disputed them. So one would need to disagree with his or others arguments. A gadol siimply making pronouncement without explaining why milchemet mitzvah etc. doesn't apply is going. beyond his area of expertise. These are all modern concepts that one follows a gadol on non-halachic issues especially without a detailed halachic reasoning
"A gadol siimply making pronouncement without explaining why milchemet mitzvah etc. doesn't apply is going beyond his area of expertise.."
Milchemes mitzva is a religious concept.
More proof that Haredim are idolators and therefore that their religion is not Judaism. Rav Neugroschel has deified Rav Landau.
Just like many deify western values.
Btw dont get worked up over someone Israelis never heard of. They don't matter in the big picture.