Not addressing this to the atheist A. Nuran= Todd Ellner or the irrational and hyper-obsessed Natan, but to reasonable people in the room:
By calling chareidim evil, selfish, cruel, you have admitted defeat. You have said there is no solution to this problem, because chareidim are just evil, selfish, and cruel. Even if you were force chareidim into the army against their will, would you even want such selfish, cruel monsters in your army? Maybe if you needed them to perform sodomy on Palestinian prisoners, but otherwise, you have just totally given up hope and are venting your rage. Happy venting! Or...if think this is a serious problem and you don't believe chareidim are selfish and cruel monsters, you can try to constructively work on a solution.
I don’t think there are many folks here who are reasonable and are not aware that Chareidim who refuse military and national service are selfish, cruel and greedy. To those descriptives you may add narcissistic, artifice, betrayal and halachic contrivances. And you are correct. There is no solution to this problem unless the reasonable among us eliminate the financial resources that permit the selfish, cruel and greedy to lever their halachic aggressions against the very society that permits them to flourish.
The war against Hamas is as consequential as the battle against chareidism. Both are existential.
As far as venting rage against chareidi society, that’s your jaundiced view of the chiloni and non-chareidi society. So go blather on about our rage. It’s not rage but a real-world characterization of the uselessness of crackpot Judaism.
What sinaas chinam? I have seen way more sinaa from the secularists towards the chareidim than the other way around. Of course the secularists will tell you its justified because of blah blah blah. But there is very little sinaa coming from the chareidi side. There is however plenty of legitimate criticism towards the secularist. But that is not sinaa.
Are you being silly? If you have followed this blog, then plenty of commenters explained the reasons. Usually to get banned by Natan very quickly but, you should have seen the reasons even on this thread or the last one. If you have trouble understanding I can explain, but I suspect you have no interest.
1 - Torah-observant above all, no matter the physical dangers.
2 - Army service above all, no matter the spiritual dangers.
Both philosophies have become its own religion. Rational people, on the other hand, strive to find practical solutions to resolve BOTH. Such as a separate army for Charedim. But to just keep repeating your own philosophy without trying to accommodate the opposing philosophy is self centered and, frankly, a waste of time. It does allow you to release the stress of a scared parent who's child is constantly in harm's way, whether physical danger or spiritual danger.
Army service is part of Torah spirituality not a threat. Just like getting a job,buying your groceries or any other regular matter necessary for life to function as a Torah community.
Army service above all, no matter the spiritual dangers. ----) WRONG. There is minimal spiritual danger. See all the guys in Hesder yeshivot that do just fine.
That is now after years of adjustment. Mizrachi suffered a terrible dropout rate in the early years. I know that from my Mizrachi cousins. Radical change is danger for everyone. If we can do things slowly that would be different. But both sides wont budge an inch. So nothing will happen until people acknowledge reality. I'm not saying who should compromise first. But you're way of thinking wont change the situation a bit.
Right, the IDF has gotten a lot more religious. is the point. You are saying that Chareidi young men can't "adjust" to the IDF from a spiritual perspective. Dati L'Umi do not find this point credible. I guess that is the nekudas hamachlokes. I agree I do not think there will ever be a compromise.
But here's the point: You cannot try to convince them that your opinion is correct. But you can at least understand that they have a different perspective than you, and work with them to figure out a solution.
Just screaming at charedim about milchemes mitzva and shivyon banetel is a waste of time, because they feel that the spiritual dangers of the IDF are worse than the positives of shivyon banetel and milchemes mitzva. Trying to convince them that there are no spiritual dangers in the IDF is a waste of time, because they don't believe you, no matter what you will say.
So accept that they will never join the IDF.
So what is the solution?
I believe the only solution is a separate army for charedim, run entirely by charedim, and having no interaction at all with non-charedim. I believe this will solve the issue.
I believe the only solution is a separate army for charedim, run entirely by charedim, and having no interaction at all with non-charedim. I believe this will solve the issue. -- Great. Let's see it happen
It's also important to recognize the Torah having a whole section on Eishes Yefas Toar and how the Torah is willing to make certain leniencies in that regard. The Torah clearly recognizes and deals with the spiritual dangers of serving in war, and no where does it suggest that it would be a reason not to serve. When our enemies attack, we fight together, and we deal with the spiritual dangers as they come. We aren't excused from the fight just because it poses a risk to our soul.
You miss the point. It's not just about the spiritual dangers of joining the army per se, but the dangers of joining a community that is collectively against the Torah. This is more comparable to the Torah's warning to not mix with the Canaanites, which the meforshim explain is for this reason. Obviously, fellow Jews are not exactly the same thing, and require a much more nuanced approach, but I am giving a moshol on par with yours of Eishes Yefas Toar.
Do we want to vent, or do we want to find a solution. If we want to find a solution, we will need to acknowledge that they have an opinion, that they are willing to die for their opinion, and we need to accommodate them if we want them to serve.
Eishes Yifas toar is from the enemy as it beyond our control. In our army there is no heter because it is our job to draw the boundries. C'mon. If an Israeli soldier rapes a fellow female soldier you'll give him a pass?
And by the way, charedim believe the physical danger is minimal. - Huh? Do they look out the window? I guess they don't know about Iran, Hizbollah, Palestinians throughout the country itself, etc
They would rather their children were killed by terrorists than their children be exposed to spiritual danger.
I know you disagree with them, but that is their belief.
Just as you would rather your children be exposed to spiritual danger than for them to be killed by terrorists.
See - its two opposite philosophies. Each one bashing the other one is pointless, other than letting off some steam. But if you want to resolve it, acknowledge the other side and find a realistic solution.
I don't believe that the Chareidim would rather die or see their children killed by terrorists rather than serve. I think that they believe that if they yell loudly enough and occasionally block traffic, and threaten to bring down the government, they can continue to have the best of both worlds.
They weren't willing to accept higher daycare prices for those who weren't willing to be drafted, why do you think they would choose death?
None of us here can implement any solutions to this issue just like the ceasefire now people can't actually do anything. But we are free to share our thoughts
Its not an excuse. Its their way of life. They literally live in a bubble so that their children aren't exposed to anything.
You can disagree with their way of life. But you have to agree that this is, in fact, their way of life. (Unless you're literally ignorant of how charedim live their lives.) So yes, to charedim, even minimal spiritual danger is existential.
Isn't it interesting that the 5 "practical things" that can be done to help are all bein adam lemakom and none are d'orayta (tzinyus may be the exception depending on what is being called for)? And that these are exactly the same things that have been repeatedly emphasized in those communities for many years such that they are already observed obesessively with many chumrot?
None of these are what the Nevi'im preached about which were all d'orayta and mostly involved concern for others. It's also not what the Gemara in Bava Batra mentions when talking about how to become a Yirah Shemayim which also deals with that area of halacha. It's also very different from the approach of the Chofetz Chaim who when he arrived in Radin gave his first drasha about the importance of honesty in business and then went and measured all the weights and measures used in the town.
A few mistakes here. Bein adam lemakom was very important to the Neviim. The idea that the neviim were railing against anything approximating modern-day chareidim is a ridiculous misreading that can only stem from deep ignorance of the Neviim, and most likely comes from the Christians. The people the Neviim were speaking to were mostly idol-worshippers who only occasionally worshipped in the Beis Hamikdash. They had terrible bain adam lemakom and terrible bein adam lechavero. See this essay https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/was-the-bais-hamikdash-destroyed
Another thing. The first three points are about strengthening prayer. The idea that prayer is not deoraissah, or that this should make a difference, is a misconception. There is a question if there is a mitzvah deroaissah to pray every day, but everybody agrees prayer is something very important, and the Ramban appears to agree it is a mitzvah deoraissah when we are in an eis tzarah. Now I ask you, are we in the midst of an eis tzarah or not?
Another thing. Believing in the 13 principles is definitely deoraissah, no matter what certain agenda-driven historians will tell you.
In the Pashevil that you shared there is one line about the army " צבא ההורסת דת תורתינו"
Can you disagree with that? What is the level of attrition in the kipa sruga community that you have chosen to affiliate with vs the charedi community? correlate that with army service. You have been ranting and raving against chareidim but have you written one piece before or after the war began critical of the army or the State for causing generations of youths from orthodox families to abandon religious faith? I assume that you, like most orthodox Jews that made aliya, did so out of religious belief. How ironically horrible is it that in our religious zionist quest we send our kids to the army and then lose them to practicing Judaism, the very reason we came here and sent them to army. The Haredi leadership sees that and distances its youth from it. Maybe it is time you addressed the root cause and not the secondary outcome.
I read your four points now and see that you have not addressed the issue. You claim it is not true. You claim there are hesder programs and therefore all is OK . Saying it ain't so does not make it not so. You say there are ways around it like otzar bet din and heter iska. That is too weird and makes me think you don't know what those terms mean. Hesder - hesder is a five year commitment. Just like in the charedi community not every modern orthodox jew is cut out for years of sitting in a bes medrash all day. In Israel there are (were) many traditonal orthodox jews. Shomrei Torah Umitzvos but not lamdanim. Do they not deserve an environment in the 'people's army' that respects their jewish practice and does not not mock it and make it difficult to maintain those values? I do not have the data. I look around me and see how many remain frum. I see families where the older children were raised in modern orthodox NY metro area and are all frum and the younger children raised here and then did army none are. Unusual coincidence? Look around you in Bet shemehs, efrat and other enclaves of anglo olim and see what is happening. Compare those families to families who made aliya from similar communities in chu"l that made aliyah to charedi communities and didn't send their children to the IDF. What are the attrition rates? The army was and remains a non-friendly environment for religious as in this 2024 quote from a major general who was one stop from being Ramatkal l I read your four points now and see that you have not addressed the issue. You claim it is not true. You claim there are hesder programs and therefore all is OK . Saying it ain't so do not make it not so. You say there are ways around it like otzar bet din and heter iska. That is too wierd and makes me think you don't know what those terms mean. Hesder - hesder is a five year commitment. Just like in the charedi community not every modern orthodox Jew is cut out for years of sitting in a bes medrash all. In Israel there are (were) many traditional orthodox jews. Shomrei Torah Umitzvos but not lamdanim. Do they not deserve an environment in the 'people's army' that respects their Jewish practice and does not not mock it and make it difficult to maintain those values? I do not have the data. I look around me and see how many remain frum. I see families where the older children were raised in modern orthodox NY metro area and are all frum and the younger children raised here and then did army none are. Unusual coincidence? Look around you in Bet Shemesh, Efrat and other enclaves of anglo olimi and see what is happening. Compare those families to families from similar communities that made aliyah to DL communities and sent their most precious to the IDF. The army was and remains non friendly to the religious. As in this 2024 quote from a major general that was almost ramatkal
בני הציונות הדתית צריכים לעבור חינוך מחדש בצה"ל
צה"ל .. חייב להעביר לכל חייל וחיילת חינוך לאזרחות דמוקרטית, לאזרחות ליברלית, לאזרחות שתואמת מדינה באלף השלישי".
This accompanied his plans to close mechinat Eli and other like it. The upper army echelons believe it is their mission to make soldiers progressive, liberal and secular, as they are.
If you goal is Charedi bashing or letting off steam then you are doing well. If you feel that writing will influence change then it would behoove you to address this issue despite that it involves criticism of the holy IDF. You can pretend it does not exist but until it really does not exist the Charedim will not negotiate or compromise and their voting power is growing fast. Before the current war the IDF was cutting ranks, equipment and length of service as the brass claimed we have deterrence and need less army. They were not looking to enforce enlistment amongst chardeim and not in north Tel Aviv. Now that the need for more manpower is ever increasing, some parts of the security forces ae walking up. The minister of internal security has recruited Charedim to the police in significant numbers and recently showcased a large unit of charedi magav. Despite difficult times the IDF has not set aside its priority of promoting progressiveness over defense and recently showcased it female-manned tank units (ask the young men in the armored corp in your shul what they think about that). The dati leumi soldier is now on his third round of miluimm with many having given >8 months of active duty but the army will not comprise and accommodate 100,000 potential charedi recruits but will prefer to use the issue as a wedge in Israeli society.
The army went out of its way to create Netzach Yehuda and gave in to a number of conditions that have never been granted before in the army's history that are quite the opposite of the progressive agenda you claim they are forcing on everyone who serves. But what happened? The numbers have disappointed and most of them are not Charedi at all but Chardal. Why? Because it's the "Gedolim" that refuse to even discuss under what terms they would allow their boys to serve. If Netzach Yehuda isn't frum enough, let them tell the army what would be necessary. But that has never happened.
https://www.maariv.co.il/news/military/Article-1082672 Netzach yehuda was not the army's idea but a private chareidi amuta that the army agredd to work with. 21,000 have served and many have been fighting in sadir and miluim since Simchas Torah. There were accomodations made and sometimes commitments broken with no recourse for the soldiers affected. There was no change in general army philosphy of using the army as a melting pot and way to mold young people in the mold of the progressive brass. If a Netzach Yehuda soldier excels and want to continue upwards in the army to an officer's course (קצונה) he signs that he forfeits any accomodations he previously had in netzach yehuda.
The answer is that they don't care about religion. Slifkin says the community is taking "spiritual risks". But it's really just spiritual suicide. They don't really care if their kids stay frum, as long as the kids are good Israeli citizens who served in the army. Nationalism far more important that Torah. As Zundel Eyeshocker said two days ago, that's the problem with Zionism that many of our Gedolim had the foresight to see.
The army caused no one to be irreligious. People became irreligious of their own free will. You speak of being religious as if it was a natural state of affairs that people have to be forced out of. Millions of secular American Jews (who "forced" them out of Orthodoxy?) would like a word. Orthodoxy is *hard*.
There is a letter from the Steipler ztz"l (no big fan of serving in the IDF, IIRC) where he writes to someone who is being drafted that what is crucial is how one spends their free time while serving - people who make good use of their free time won't be spiritually harmed by serving in the army.
I do not understand your comment. We are all influenced by our environment especially impressionable 18 year olds. Why did you parents send you to yeshiva day school and not public school. Why did they prefer you have friends of a certain type? Why do you choose to live in a certain community vs another. To take it to the extreme, why in chul did Jews not want their kids to be drafted into the army? Surely one can chose to throw off the tradition of his parents anywhere but there are certain environments more conducive to abandning one's faith then others. DId you choose YU over another university for the academics or for the relgious environment? Could you have remained observant elsewhere? surely. Many of us did but one chooses the environment that fosters the desired outcome.
The author of the blog writes the blog with the assumption that with his wide readership he will influence change. Yet he never advocates change at the root cause. From the comments it seems that his readership is mostly dati and dati light. They fill the lower ranks of the army these days. He might have some influence if his messages trickle out from the blog to the populace and maybe through the idf ranks, although flow is usually downhill not uphill; hence the problem we are discussing. His influence in the charedi population approaches zero. Hence this ongoing blog thread, preaching to the choir, is exposed as just another of his charedi bashing threads. His position was the same before Shimchas Torah. Maybe he should have bemoaned the tetrible attrition in our ranks poast-idf and advocated that all the srugim and masorati also stop going the army (like the liberal tel avivans do) until the army stops being a re-education center for the left of all the forced conscripts. DL are widely overpresented expeically in combat roles. Mechinat Eli has lost 500! grads over the years but is maligned by the army who want to defund it because of their religion. Bashing chaerdim here will not bring change but does foster internicine strife and hatred (a stong word but i read the comments of others here) between Jews. Sad. I fail to see the purpose.
Any data on cause and effect, distinguishing between hesder and non-hesder units, between soldiers who came from homes with a strong grounding in Torah vs those that didn't? Presumably, the haredim would serve in like-minded units, like hesder, with guidelines set up by Rabbonim.
Rabbi, your fierce intelligence, persuasive writing and strong feeling are desperately needed in the field of public diplomacy. The perfect being the enemy of the good. There’s a war on.
I was about to say, if they really needed to cover all the big places (and they didn't, outside of Brooklyn and Lakewwod), there are other roshei yeshiva in Torah Vodaas. But really: His father taught at a header yeshiva for decades. His brother still does. His grandfather was head of Mizrachi. Did he really have to sign this?
It's called free will. Nobody forces you to stay in a particular community. Nobody is forcing you to stay true to the Torah, and nobody is forcing you to go OTD. Don't blame it on the army.
For all the quibbling about Chareidim planning an Atzeres Tefillah to protest the draft as opposed to the soldiers and hostages, can you, or any other MO/DL commenter here, explain why there's no Atzeres Tefillah in the MO/DL community for...the soldiers and hostages? Perhaps Chareidim would join (they almost did in the Washington rally until they discovered the program wasn't exactly suited for a Torah observant Jew), perhaps not, though I think there's a good chance they would. There's a phrase "K'Shot Atzmecha Ve'achar Kach K'shot acheirim". When you guys make a large Atzeres Tefillah (not a protest rally in front of an embassy etc.) in honor of the soldiers and hostages, you can complain that we don't. Until then, you guys should pound sand, alright?
The point is why the Atzeres Tefillah de-emphasizes the soldier, hostage and other victims of the war. The question is not necessarily whether there should be an Atzeres Tefillah at all. The question is, that if it does take place why ignore אחינו כל בית ישראל?
You're latest response is not helpful because you fail to explain why you consider the daily תפילות/תהילים sufficient for אחינו כל בית ישראל, but not for the draft issue.
Because our husbands and sons are mostly in and out of miluim. We have been on emergency footing for nearly a year. Every single prayer has been תפילת זעקה. In between, we are desperately trying to keep things "normal" for our kids and others who depend on us.
The wives and children of the miluimnikim that I know are falling apart. Many husbands simply cannot go back for a 3rd stint. They just can't. The chareidim need to step up and serve.
I read your four points now and see that you have not addressed the issue. You claim it is not true. You claim there are hesder programs and therefore all is OK . Saying it ain't so does not make it not so. You say there are ways around it like otzar bet din and heter iska. That is too weird and makes me think you don't know what those terms mean. Hesder - hesder is a five year commitment. Just like in the charedi community not every modern orthodox jew is cut out for years of sitting in a bes medrash all day. In Israel there are (were) many traditonal orthodox jews. Shomrei Torah Umitzvos but not lamdanim. Do they not deserve an environment in the 'people's army' that respects their jewish practice and does not not mock it and make it difficult to maintain those values? I do not have the data. I look around me and see how many remain frum. I see families where the older children were raised in modern orthodox NY metro area and are all frum and the younger children raised here and then did army none are. Unusual coincidence? Look around you in Bet shemehs, efrat and other enclaves of anglo olim and see what is happening. Compare those families to families who made aliya from similar communities in chu"l that made aliyah to charedi communities and didn't send their children to the IDF. What are the attrition rates? The army was and remains a non-friendly environment for religious as in this 2024 quote from a major general who was one stop from being Ramatkal l I read your four points now and see that you have not addressed the issue. You claim it is not true. You claim there are hesder programs and therefore all is OK . Saying it ain't so do not make it not so. You say there are ways around it like otzar bet din and heter iska. That is too wierd and makes me think you don't know what those terms mean. Hesder - hesder is a five year commitment. Just like in the charedi community not every modern orthodox Jew is cut out for years of sitting in a bes medrash all. In Israel there are (were) many traditional orthodox jews. Shomrei Torah Umitzvos but not lamdanim. Do they not deserve an environment in the 'people's army' that respects their Jewish practice and does not not mock it and make it difficult to maintain those values? I do not have the data. I look around me and see how many remain frum. I see families where the older children were raised in modern orthodox NY metro area and are all frum and the younger children raised here and then did army none are. Unusual coincidence? Look around you in Bet Shemesh, Efrat and other enclaves of anglo olimi and see what is happening. Compare those families to families from similar communities that made aliyah to DL communities and sent their most precious to the IDF. The army was and remains non friendly to the religious. As in this 2024 quote from a major general that was almost ramatkal
בני הציונות הדתית צריכים לעבור חינוך מחדש בצה"ל
צה"ל .. חייב להעביר לכל חייל וחיילת חינוך לאזרחות דמוקרטית, לאזרחות ליברלית, לאזרחות שתואמת מדינה באלף השלישי".
This accompanied his plans to close mechinat Eli and other like it. The upper army echelons believe it is their mission to make soldiers progressive, liberal and secular, as they are.
If you goal is Charedi bashing or letting off steam then you are doing well. If you feel that writing will influence change then it would behoove you to address this issue despite that it involves criticism of the holy IDF. You can pretend it does not exist but until it really does not exist the Charedim will not negotiate or compromise and their voting power is growing fast. Before the current war the IDF was cutting ranks, equipment and length of service as the brass claimed we have deterrence and need less army. They were not looking to enforce enlistment amongst chardeim and not in north Tel Aviv. Now that the need for more manpower is ever increasing, some parts of the security forces ae walking up. The minister of internal security has recruited Charedim to the police in significant numbers and recently showcased a large unit of charedi magav. Despite difficult times the IDF has not set aside its priority of promoting progressiveness over defense and recently showcased it female-manned tank units (ask the young men in the armored corp in your shul what they think about that). The dati leumi soldier is now on his third round of miluimm with many having given >8 months of active duty but the army will not comprise and accommodate 100,000 potential charedi recruits but will prefer to use the issue as a wedge in Israeli society.
בני הציונות הדתית צריכים לעבור חינוך מחדש בצה"ל
צה"ל .. חייב להעביר לכל חייל וחיילת חינוך לאזרחות דמוקרטית, לאזרחות ליברלית, לאזרחות שתואמת מדינה באלף השלישי".
This accompanied his plans to close mechinat Eli and other like it. The upper army echelons believe it is their mission to make soldiers progressive, liberal and secular, as they are.
If you goal is Charedi bashing or letting off steam then you are doing well. If you feel that writing will influence change then it would behoove you to address this issue despite that it involves criticism of the holy IDF. You can pretend it does not exist but until it really does not exist the Charedim will not negotiate or compromise and their voting power is growing fast. Before the current war the IDF was cutting ranks, equipment and length of service as the brass claimed we have deterrence and need less army. They were not looking to enforce enlistment amongst chardeim and not in north Tel Aviv. Now that the need for more manpower is ever increasing, some parts of the security forces ae walking up. The minister of internal security has recruited Charedim to the police in significant numbers and recently showcased a large unit of charedi magav. Despite difficult times the IDF has not set aside its priority of promoting progressiveness over defense and recently showcased it female-manned tank units (ask the young men in the armored corp in your shul what they think about that). The dati leumi soldier is now on his third round of miluimm with many having given >8 months of active duty but the army will not comprise and accommodate 100,000 potential charedi recruits but will prefer to use the issue as a wedge in Israeli society.
"My daughter fought like a lion for a year, was exposed to everything, just to be called up to reserve duty when she was finished with her service, in order to guard and feed the Nakba terrorists in jail, because they have a shortage of soldiers."
Nukbah, not nakba. Nakba is the thing that happens after nukhbas rape and pillage. Also, עונש מוות למחבלים would probably be more efficient than using allegedly much needed (wo)manpower to feed these guys. (This is NOT intended as an argument for or against the main point of this post. I've said my bit already almost as many times as you've said yours, and am not particularly interested doing so again.)
Natan, the reality is USA is not as you suggest. This entire "protest" has it's origins in Satmar. Satmar has hijacked the Yeshiva community in USA. Wether it's through money or ideology - Satmar has greatly affected "Yeshivish" scene.
Anything relating to Israel, Satmar gets R' Wachtfogel to join - then by default the rest of the Yeshivish world join......
Torah u'Messora does good work that benefits a broad range of Clal Yisrael. Their people who do this work should not be punished for the idolatrous Gedolim worship that forced their leaders to cave to their organization's rabbinnical board.
They always taught me in yeshiva that Daas Bal Habas is Lehepach Daas Torah. But they forgot to mention the second part of the phrase. That Daas torah is lehepach Daas Klall.
Selfish, cruel, greedy, and utterly devoted to standing idly by the blood of their fellows. They should not get one penny in charity.
Not addressing this to the atheist A. Nuran= Todd Ellner or the irrational and hyper-obsessed Natan, but to reasonable people in the room:
By calling chareidim evil, selfish, cruel, you have admitted defeat. You have said there is no solution to this problem, because chareidim are just evil, selfish, and cruel. Even if you were force chareidim into the army against their will, would you even want such selfish, cruel monsters in your army? Maybe if you needed them to perform sodomy on Palestinian prisoners, but otherwise, you have just totally given up hope and are venting your rage. Happy venting! Or...if think this is a serious problem and you don't believe chareidim are selfish and cruel monsters, you can try to constructively work on a solution.
@ Azmaveth
I don’t think there are many folks here who are reasonable and are not aware that Chareidim who refuse military and national service are selfish, cruel and greedy. To those descriptives you may add narcissistic, artifice, betrayal and halachic contrivances. And you are correct. There is no solution to this problem unless the reasonable among us eliminate the financial resources that permit the selfish, cruel and greedy to lever their halachic aggressions against the very society that permits them to flourish.
The war against Hamas is as consequential as the battle against chareidism. Both are existential.
As far as venting rage against chareidi society, that’s your jaundiced view of the chiloni and non-chareidi society. So go blather on about our rage. It’s not rage but a real-world characterization of the uselessness of crackpot Judaism.
Could that evil be שנאת חינם? Should this prime עבירה be more shameful when it comes from חרדים ?
What sinaas chinam? I have seen way more sinaa from the secularists towards the chareidim than the other way around. Of course the secularists will tell you its justified because of blah blah blah. But there is very little sinaa coming from the chareidi side. There is however plenty of legitimate criticism towards the secularist. But that is not sinaa.
Please remind me what were the reasons for not joining צה״ל? Was it only bittul Toireh?
Are you being silly? If you have followed this blog, then plenty of commenters explained the reasons. Usually to get banned by Natan very quickly but, you should have seen the reasons even on this thread or the last one. If you have trouble understanding I can explain, but I suspect you have no interest.
Nobody has ever been banned for putting forth a charedi perspective.
Call me an atheist only if you want to throw hands. Seriously
Two opposing philosophies:
1 - Torah-observant above all, no matter the physical dangers.
2 - Army service above all, no matter the spiritual dangers.
Both philosophies have become its own religion. Rational people, on the other hand, strive to find practical solutions to resolve BOTH. Such as a separate army for Charedim. But to just keep repeating your own philosophy without trying to accommodate the opposing philosophy is self centered and, frankly, a waste of time. It does allow you to release the stress of a scared parent who's child is constantly in harm's way, whether physical danger or spiritual danger.
Army service is part of Torah spirituality not a threat. Just like getting a job,buying your groceries or any other regular matter necessary for life to function as a Torah community.
Exactly. And the Charedim will only get a job and buy groceries in places that are a 100% charedi environment.
Unlike the IDF.
Which is why the charedim will never join the IDF.
Army service above all, no matter the spiritual dangers. ----) WRONG. There is minimal spiritual danger. See all the guys in Hesder yeshivot that do just fine.
That is now after years of adjustment. Mizrachi suffered a terrible dropout rate in the early years. I know that from my Mizrachi cousins. Radical change is danger for everyone. If we can do things slowly that would be different. But both sides wont budge an inch. So nothing will happen until people acknowledge reality. I'm not saying who should compromise first. But you're way of thinking wont change the situation a bit.
Right, the IDF has gotten a lot more religious. is the point. You are saying that Chareidi young men can't "adjust" to the IDF from a spiritual perspective. Dati L'Umi do not find this point credible. I guess that is the nekudas hamachlokes. I agree I do not think there will ever be a compromise.
You are correct, this is the nekudas hamachlokes.
But here's the point: You cannot try to convince them that your opinion is correct. But you can at least understand that they have a different perspective than you, and work with them to figure out a solution.
Just screaming at charedim about milchemes mitzva and shivyon banetel is a waste of time, because they feel that the spiritual dangers of the IDF are worse than the positives of shivyon banetel and milchemes mitzva. Trying to convince them that there are no spiritual dangers in the IDF is a waste of time, because they don't believe you, no matter what you will say.
So accept that they will never join the IDF.
So what is the solution?
I believe the only solution is a separate army for charedim, run entirely by charedim, and having no interaction at all with non-charedim. I believe this will solve the issue.
I believe the only solution is a separate army for charedim, run entirely by charedim, and having no interaction at all with non-charedim. I believe this will solve the issue. -- Great. Let's see it happen
That's your opinion. To charedim, even minimal spiritual danger is existential.
And by the way, charedim believe the physical danger is minimal.
I know you disagree, I was just laying out the 2 opposing philosophies.
It's also important to recognize the Torah having a whole section on Eishes Yefas Toar and how the Torah is willing to make certain leniencies in that regard. The Torah clearly recognizes and deals with the spiritual dangers of serving in war, and no where does it suggest that it would be a reason not to serve. When our enemies attack, we fight together, and we deal with the spiritual dangers as they come. We aren't excused from the fight just because it poses a risk to our soul.
You miss the point. It's not just about the spiritual dangers of joining the army per se, but the dangers of joining a community that is collectively against the Torah. This is more comparable to the Torah's warning to not mix with the Canaanites, which the meforshim explain is for this reason. Obviously, fellow Jews are not exactly the same thing, and require a much more nuanced approach, but I am giving a moshol on par with yours of Eishes Yefas Toar.
A community that is collectively against the Torah??
Again, that's your opinion. Charedim disagree.
Do we want to vent, or do we want to find a solution. If we want to find a solution, we will need to acknowledge that they have an opinion, that they are willing to die for their opinion, and we need to accommodate them if we want them to serve.
Eishes Yifas toar is from the enemy as it beyond our control. In our army there is no heter because it is our job to draw the boundries. C'mon. If an Israeli soldier rapes a fellow female soldier you'll give him a pass?
That’s why, when I become רמטכ״ל I will declare war on Sweden in the summer😄
And by the way, charedim believe the physical danger is minimal. - Huh? Do they look out the window? I guess they don't know about Iran, Hizbollah, Palestinians throughout the country itself, etc
They would rather their children were killed by terrorists than their children be exposed to spiritual danger.
I know you disagree with them, but that is their belief.
Just as you would rather your children be exposed to spiritual danger than for them to be killed by terrorists.
See - its two opposite philosophies. Each one bashing the other one is pointless, other than letting off some steam. But if you want to resolve it, acknowledge the other side and find a realistic solution.
I don't believe that the Chareidim would rather die or see their children killed by terrorists rather than serve. I think that they believe that if they yell loudly enough and occasionally block traffic, and threaten to bring down the government, they can continue to have the best of both worlds.
They weren't willing to accept higher daycare prices for those who weren't willing to be drafted, why do you think they would choose death?
I actually dispute that there is any a priori "spiritual danger" serving in the IDF
None of us here can implement any solutions to this issue just like the ceasefire now people can't actually do anything. But we are free to share our thoughts
Only one side is grounded in Torah sources reality and facts
To charedim, even minimal spiritual danger is existential. -- Of course. what a convenient excuse.
Its not an excuse. Its their way of life. They literally live in a bubble so that their children aren't exposed to anything.
You can disagree with their way of life. But you have to agree that this is, in fact, their way of life. (Unless you're literally ignorant of how charedim live their lives.) So yes, to charedim, even minimal spiritual danger is existential.
True, but it's a luxury belief and luxury way of life, as it demands the financial support of everyone else.
That is an intellectually dishonest false dichotomy. And you are better than that.
Isn't it interesting that the 5 "practical things" that can be done to help are all bein adam lemakom and none are d'orayta (tzinyus may be the exception depending on what is being called for)? And that these are exactly the same things that have been repeatedly emphasized in those communities for many years such that they are already observed obesessively with many chumrot?
None of these are what the Nevi'im preached about which were all d'orayta and mostly involved concern for others. It's also not what the Gemara in Bava Batra mentions when talking about how to become a Yirah Shemayim which also deals with that area of halacha. It's also very different from the approach of the Chofetz Chaim who when he arrived in Radin gave his first drasha about the importance of honesty in business and then went and measured all the weights and measures used in the town.
A few mistakes here. Bein adam lemakom was very important to the Neviim. The idea that the neviim were railing against anything approximating modern-day chareidim is a ridiculous misreading that can only stem from deep ignorance of the Neviim, and most likely comes from the Christians. The people the Neviim were speaking to were mostly idol-worshippers who only occasionally worshipped in the Beis Hamikdash. They had terrible bain adam lemakom and terrible bein adam lechavero. See this essay https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/was-the-bais-hamikdash-destroyed
Another thing. The first three points are about strengthening prayer. The idea that prayer is not deoraissah, or that this should make a difference, is a misconception. There is a question if there is a mitzvah deroaissah to pray every day, but everybody agrees prayer is something very important, and the Ramban appears to agree it is a mitzvah deoraissah when we are in an eis tzarah. Now I ask you, are we in the midst of an eis tzarah or not?
Another thing. Believing in the 13 principles is definitely deoraissah, no matter what certain agenda-driven historians will tell you.
"Believing in the 13 principles is definitely deoraissah"
So Rav Albo who only has three is oiver d'oyraisohs?
Have you read the sefer haikkrim?
In the Pashevil that you shared there is one line about the army " צבא ההורסת דת תורתינו"
Can you disagree with that? What is the level of attrition in the kipa sruga community that you have chosen to affiliate with vs the charedi community? correlate that with army service. You have been ranting and raving against chareidim but have you written one piece before or after the war began critical of the army or the State for causing generations of youths from orthodox families to abandon religious faith? I assume that you, like most orthodox Jews that made aliya, did so out of religious belief. How ironically horrible is it that in our religious zionist quest we send our kids to the army and then lose them to practicing Judaism, the very reason we came here and sent them to army. The Haredi leadership sees that and distances its youth from it. Maybe it is time you addressed the root cause and not the secondary outcome.
Already addressed here - https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-religious-risks-of-idf-service
I read your four points now and see that you have not addressed the issue. You claim it is not true. You claim there are hesder programs and therefore all is OK . Saying it ain't so does not make it not so. You say there are ways around it like otzar bet din and heter iska. That is too weird and makes me think you don't know what those terms mean. Hesder - hesder is a five year commitment. Just like in the charedi community not every modern orthodox jew is cut out for years of sitting in a bes medrash all day. In Israel there are (were) many traditonal orthodox jews. Shomrei Torah Umitzvos but not lamdanim. Do they not deserve an environment in the 'people's army' that respects their jewish practice and does not not mock it and make it difficult to maintain those values? I do not have the data. I look around me and see how many remain frum. I see families where the older children were raised in modern orthodox NY metro area and are all frum and the younger children raised here and then did army none are. Unusual coincidence? Look around you in Bet shemehs, efrat and other enclaves of anglo olim and see what is happening. Compare those families to families who made aliya from similar communities in chu"l that made aliyah to charedi communities and didn't send their children to the IDF. What are the attrition rates? The army was and remains a non-friendly environment for religious as in this 2024 quote from a major general who was one stop from being Ramatkal l I read your four points now and see that you have not addressed the issue. You claim it is not true. You claim there are hesder programs and therefore all is OK . Saying it ain't so do not make it not so. You say there are ways around it like otzar bet din and heter iska. That is too wierd and makes me think you don't know what those terms mean. Hesder - hesder is a five year commitment. Just like in the charedi community not every modern orthodox Jew is cut out for years of sitting in a bes medrash all. In Israel there are (were) many traditional orthodox jews. Shomrei Torah Umitzvos but not lamdanim. Do they not deserve an environment in the 'people's army' that respects their Jewish practice and does not not mock it and make it difficult to maintain those values? I do not have the data. I look around me and see how many remain frum. I see families where the older children were raised in modern orthodox NY metro area and are all frum and the younger children raised here and then did army none are. Unusual coincidence? Look around you in Bet Shemesh, Efrat and other enclaves of anglo olimi and see what is happening. Compare those families to families from similar communities that made aliyah to DL communities and sent their most precious to the IDF. The army was and remains non friendly to the religious. As in this 2024 quote from a major general that was almost ramatkal
בני הציונות הדתית צריכים לעבור חינוך מחדש בצה"ל
צה"ל .. חייב להעביר לכל חייל וחיילת חינוך לאזרחות דמוקרטית, לאזרחות ליברלית, לאזרחות שתואמת מדינה באלף השלישי".
This accompanied his plans to close mechinat Eli and other like it. The upper army echelons believe it is their mission to make soldiers progressive, liberal and secular, as they are.
If you goal is Charedi bashing or letting off steam then you are doing well. If you feel that writing will influence change then it would behoove you to address this issue despite that it involves criticism of the holy IDF. You can pretend it does not exist but until it really does not exist the Charedim will not negotiate or compromise and their voting power is growing fast. Before the current war the IDF was cutting ranks, equipment and length of service as the brass claimed we have deterrence and need less army. They were not looking to enforce enlistment amongst chardeim and not in north Tel Aviv. Now that the need for more manpower is ever increasing, some parts of the security forces ae walking up. The minister of internal security has recruited Charedim to the police in significant numbers and recently showcased a large unit of charedi magav. Despite difficult times the IDF has not set aside its priority of promoting progressiveness over defense and recently showcased it female-manned tank units (ask the young men in the armored corp in your shul what they think about that). The dati leumi soldier is now on his third round of miluimm with many having given >8 months of active duty but the army will not comprise and accommodate 100,000 potential charedi recruits but will prefer to use the issue as a wedge in Israeli society.
The army went out of its way to create Netzach Yehuda and gave in to a number of conditions that have never been granted before in the army's history that are quite the opposite of the progressive agenda you claim they are forcing on everyone who serves. But what happened? The numbers have disappointed and most of them are not Charedi at all but Chardal. Why? Because it's the "Gedolim" that refuse to even discuss under what terms they would allow their boys to serve. If Netzach Yehuda isn't frum enough, let them tell the army what would be necessary. But that has never happened.
https://www.maariv.co.il/news/military/Article-1082672 Netzach yehuda was not the army's idea but a private chareidi amuta that the army agredd to work with. 21,000 have served and many have been fighting in sadir and miluim since Simchas Torah. There were accomodations made and sometimes commitments broken with no recourse for the soldiers affected. There was no change in general army philosphy of using the army as a melting pot and way to mold young people in the mold of the progressive brass. If a Netzach Yehuda soldier excels and want to continue upwards in the army to an officer's course (קצונה) he signs that he forfeits any accomodations he previously had in netzach yehuda.
The answer is that they don't care about religion. Slifkin says the community is taking "spiritual risks". But it's really just spiritual suicide. They don't really care if their kids stay frum, as long as the kids are good Israeli citizens who served in the army. Nationalism far more important that Torah. As Zundel Eyeshocker said two days ago, that's the problem with Zionism that many of our Gedolim had the foresight to see.
The army caused no one to be irreligious. People became irreligious of their own free will. You speak of being religious as if it was a natural state of affairs that people have to be forced out of. Millions of secular American Jews (who "forced" them out of Orthodoxy?) would like a word. Orthodoxy is *hard*.
There is a letter from the Steipler ztz"l (no big fan of serving in the IDF, IIRC) where he writes to someone who is being drafted that what is crucial is how one spends their free time while serving - people who make good use of their free time won't be spiritually harmed by serving in the army.
I do not understand your comment. We are all influenced by our environment especially impressionable 18 year olds. Why did you parents send you to yeshiva day school and not public school. Why did they prefer you have friends of a certain type? Why do you choose to live in a certain community vs another. To take it to the extreme, why in chul did Jews not want their kids to be drafted into the army? Surely one can chose to throw off the tradition of his parents anywhere but there are certain environments more conducive to abandning one's faith then others. DId you choose YU over another university for the academics or for the relgious environment? Could you have remained observant elsewhere? surely. Many of us did but one chooses the environment that fosters the desired outcome.
Yeah, but an army is necessary for the defense of Israel. We don't have choices in everything.
The author of the blog writes the blog with the assumption that with his wide readership he will influence change. Yet he never advocates change at the root cause. From the comments it seems that his readership is mostly dati and dati light. They fill the lower ranks of the army these days. He might have some influence if his messages trickle out from the blog to the populace and maybe through the idf ranks, although flow is usually downhill not uphill; hence the problem we are discussing. His influence in the charedi population approaches zero. Hence this ongoing blog thread, preaching to the choir, is exposed as just another of his charedi bashing threads. His position was the same before Shimchas Torah. Maybe he should have bemoaned the tetrible attrition in our ranks poast-idf and advocated that all the srugim and masorati also stop going the army (like the liberal tel avivans do) until the army stops being a re-education center for the left of all the forced conscripts. DL are widely overpresented expeically in combat roles. Mechinat Eli has lost 500! grads over the years but is maligned by the army who want to defund it because of their religion. Bashing chaerdim here will not bring change but does foster internicine strife and hatred (a stong word but i read the comments of others here) between Jews. Sad. I fail to see the purpose.
Then you can go do something else.
Any data on cause and effect, distinguishing between hesder and non-hesder units, between soldiers who came from homes with a strong grounding in Torah vs those that didn't? Presumably, the haredim would serve in like-minded units, like hesder, with guidelines set up by Rabbonim.
Rabbi, your fierce intelligence, persuasive writing and strong feeling are desperately needed in the field of public diplomacy. The perfect being the enemy of the good. There’s a war on.
Lichtenstein, my God.
I was about to say, if they really needed to cover all the big places (and they didn't, outside of Brooklyn and Lakewwod), there are other roshei yeshiva in Torah Vodaas. But really: His father taught at a header yeshiva for decades. His brother still does. His grandfather was head of Mizrachi. Did he really have to sign this?
Not surprised, he's a brisker...
Either that, or he sees the results of his extended family who do serve, and wants no part in it..
His extended family? Do you just like making up vicious lies about people?
Speculation, fantasy and sinful מוצאי שם רע. The extended family is doing fine.
Idk where you're referring to but that explains nothing about why he signed this letter
It's called free will. Nobody forces you to stay in a particular community. Nobody is forcing you to stay true to the Torah, and nobody is forcing you to go OTD. Don't blame it on the army.
For all the quibbling about Chareidim planning an Atzeres Tefillah to protest the draft as opposed to the soldiers and hostages, can you, or any other MO/DL commenter here, explain why there's no Atzeres Tefillah in the MO/DL community for...the soldiers and hostages? Perhaps Chareidim would join (they almost did in the Washington rally until they discovered the program wasn't exactly suited for a Torah observant Jew), perhaps not, though I think there's a good chance they would. There's a phrase "K'Shot Atzmecha Ve'achar Kach K'shot acheirim". When you guys make a large Atzeres Tefillah (not a protest rally in front of an embassy etc.) in honor of the soldiers and hostages, you can complain that we don't. Until then, you guys should pound sand, alright?
um, because everyone in the DL community says special tefillos for them all the time.
um, Chareidim say Tefillos and Tehllim every day too. Can't come up with something better than that?
The point is why the Atzeres Tefillah de-emphasizes the soldier, hostage and other victims of the war. The question is not necessarily whether there should be an Atzeres Tefillah at all. The question is, that if it does take place why ignore אחינו כל בית ישראל?
You're latest response is not helpful because you fail to explain why you consider the daily תפילות/תהילים sufficient for אחינו כל בית ישראל, but not for the draft issue.
mentioning soldiers? I don't think so
Because our husbands and sons are mostly in and out of miluim. We have been on emergency footing for nearly a year. Every single prayer has been תפילת זעקה. In between, we are desperately trying to keep things "normal" for our kids and others who depend on us.
And why is there no atzeres tefillah to get chareidim to change their minds and join the IDF if they think that's so important? Is it because they don't think Tefillah helps? https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/every-tehillim-is-a-bullet
Right, tefila does not help make other people change their minds. That's hashkafa 101.
It's not hashkafa 101, it's am-haaratzus 101. See Megilas Esther. See also Sotah 14a ״ולפשעים יפגיע״ — שביקש רחמים על פושעי ישראל שיחזרו בתשובה.
It's just stupidity, real ignorance that I would only expect from a guy who thinks the word "achdus" comes from the word "ach".
The wives and children of the miluimnikim that I know are falling apart. Many husbands simply cannot go back for a 3rd stint. They just can't. The chareidim need to step up and serve.
If someone were to arrange a counter rally that chareim should be drafted I would go.
Why the de-emphasis on matters of בין אדם לחברו?
So true.
https://www.inn.co.il/news/649765
I read your four points now and see that you have not addressed the issue. You claim it is not true. You claim there are hesder programs and therefore all is OK . Saying it ain't so does not make it not so. You say there are ways around it like otzar bet din and heter iska. That is too weird and makes me think you don't know what those terms mean. Hesder - hesder is a five year commitment. Just like in the charedi community not every modern orthodox jew is cut out for years of sitting in a bes medrash all day. In Israel there are (were) many traditonal orthodox jews. Shomrei Torah Umitzvos but not lamdanim. Do they not deserve an environment in the 'people's army' that respects their jewish practice and does not not mock it and make it difficult to maintain those values? I do not have the data. I look around me and see how many remain frum. I see families where the older children were raised in modern orthodox NY metro area and are all frum and the younger children raised here and then did army none are. Unusual coincidence? Look around you in Bet shemehs, efrat and other enclaves of anglo olim and see what is happening. Compare those families to families who made aliya from similar communities in chu"l that made aliyah to charedi communities and didn't send their children to the IDF. What are the attrition rates? The army was and remains a non-friendly environment for religious as in this 2024 quote from a major general who was one stop from being Ramatkal l I read your four points now and see that you have not addressed the issue. You claim it is not true. You claim there are hesder programs and therefore all is OK . Saying it ain't so do not make it not so. You say there are ways around it like otzar bet din and heter iska. That is too wierd and makes me think you don't know what those terms mean. Hesder - hesder is a five year commitment. Just like in the charedi community not every modern orthodox Jew is cut out for years of sitting in a bes medrash all. In Israel there are (were) many traditional orthodox jews. Shomrei Torah Umitzvos but not lamdanim. Do they not deserve an environment in the 'people's army' that respects their Jewish practice and does not not mock it and make it difficult to maintain those values? I do not have the data. I look around me and see how many remain frum. I see families where the older children were raised in modern orthodox NY metro area and are all frum and the younger children raised here and then did army none are. Unusual coincidence? Look around you in Bet Shemesh, Efrat and other enclaves of anglo olimi and see what is happening. Compare those families to families from similar communities that made aliyah to DL communities and sent their most precious to the IDF. The army was and remains non friendly to the religious. As in this 2024 quote from a major general that was almost ramatkal
בני הציונות הדתית צריכים לעבור חינוך מחדש בצה"ל
צה"ל .. חייב להעביר לכל חייל וחיילת חינוך לאזרחות דמוקרטית, לאזרחות ליברלית, לאזרחות שתואמת מדינה באלף השלישי".
This accompanied his plans to close mechinat Eli and other like it. The upper army echelons believe it is their mission to make soldiers progressive, liberal and secular, as they are.
If you goal is Charedi bashing or letting off steam then you are doing well. If you feel that writing will influence change then it would behoove you to address this issue despite that it involves criticism of the holy IDF. You can pretend it does not exist but until it really does not exist the Charedim will not negotiate or compromise and their voting power is growing fast. Before the current war the IDF was cutting ranks, equipment and length of service as the brass claimed we have deterrence and need less army. They were not looking to enforce enlistment amongst chardeim and not in north Tel Aviv. Now that the need for more manpower is ever increasing, some parts of the security forces ae walking up. The minister of internal security has recruited Charedim to the police in significant numbers and recently showcased a large unit of charedi magav. Despite difficult times the IDF has not set aside its priority of promoting progressiveness over defense and recently showcased it female-manned tank units (ask the young men in the armored corp in your shul what they think about that). The dati leumi soldier is now on his third round of miluimm with many having given >8 months of active duty but the army will not comprise and accommodate 100,000 potential charedi recruits but will prefer to use the issue as a wedge in Israeli society.
בני הציונות הדתית צריכים לעבור חינוך מחדש בצה"ל
צה"ל .. חייב להעביר לכל חייל וחיילת חינוך לאזרחות דמוקרטית, לאזרחות ליברלית, לאזרחות שתואמת מדינה באלף השלישי".
This accompanied his plans to close mechinat Eli and other like it. The upper army echelons believe it is their mission to make soldiers progressive, liberal and secular, as they are.
If you goal is Charedi bashing or letting off steam then you are doing well. If you feel that writing will influence change then it would behoove you to address this issue despite that it involves criticism of the holy IDF. You can pretend it does not exist but until it really does not exist the Charedim will not negotiate or compromise and their voting power is growing fast. Before the current war the IDF was cutting ranks, equipment and length of service as the brass claimed we have deterrence and need less army. They were not looking to enforce enlistment amongst chardeim and not in north Tel Aviv. Now that the need for more manpower is ever increasing, some parts of the security forces ae walking up. The minister of internal security has recruited Charedim to the police in significant numbers and recently showcased a large unit of charedi magav. Despite difficult times the IDF has not set aside its priority of promoting progressiveness over defense and recently showcased it female-manned tank units (ask the young men in the armored corp in your shul what they think about that). The dati leumi soldier is now on his third round of miluimm with many having given >8 months of active duty but the army will not comprise and accommodate 100,000 potential charedi recruits but will prefer to use the issue as a wedge in Israeli society.
Much of the attrition happens before or after army though. It's the general openness, not the army per se.
"My daughter fought like a lion for a year, was exposed to everything, just to be called up to reserve duty when she was finished with her service, in order to guard and feed the Nakba terrorists in jail, because they have a shortage of soldiers."
Nukbah, not nakba. Nakba is the thing that happens after nukhbas rape and pillage. Also, עונש מוות למחבלים would probably be more efficient than using allegedly much needed (wo)manpower to feed these guys. (This is NOT intended as an argument for or against the main point of this post. I've said my bit already almost as many times as you've said yours, and am not particularly interested doing so again.)
Natan, the reality is USA is not as you suggest. This entire "protest" has it's origins in Satmar. Satmar has hijacked the Yeshiva community in USA. Wether it's through money or ideology - Satmar has greatly affected "Yeshivish" scene.
Anything relating to Israel, Satmar gets R' Wachtfogel to join - then by default the rest of the Yeshivish world join......
Nothing to do with Satmar.
It's Peleg, with whom R' Wachtfogel and R' Malkiel are aligned.
Coordination is with them, not Satmar, who jump along for the ride.
Torah UMesorah send out that flyer.
Torah u'Messora does good work that benefits a broad range of Clal Yisrael. Their people who do this work should not be punished for the idolatrous Gedolim worship that forced their leaders to cave to their organization's rabbinnical board.
Torah UMesorah send out that flyer.
Ok I see it from a different link you posted. I apologize and will delete those comments.
They always taught me in yeshiva that Daas Bal Habas is Lehepach Daas Torah. But they forgot to mention the second part of the phrase. That Daas torah is lehepach Daas Klall.