I walked around yesterday, Tisha Ba'av, with this exact refrain in my head: there is no unity. There is no הכרת הטוב. There is not even acknowledgement by large swaths of the Charedi world of the heartbreaking sacrifice. And my heart alternately breaks and is so angry. So angry for the widows, like Hadas Lowenstern. So angry that my own family members and friends can be so selfish. I just want to cry.
So please write the book. Write it and have it in translated into Hebrew. The change has to come from the people and the leadership will follow. If American Charedim in Israel can't stomach the facts on the ground, give them resources to fall back on and say: We want to be a part of this country and share in the blood, sweat, and tears of עם ישראל. We want our kids to value Israel and- yes- join the army. In one of the Charedi Hesder programs- they do exist.
And then maybe there will be a hint of unity. Maybe ביחד ננצח will actually have a hint of meaning.
"There is not even acknowledgement by large swaths of the Charedi world of the heartbreaking sacrifice." To be honest - and I don't know if this is a limmud zechut or not - I think that most of them are not even aware of it.
I'm sorry, you won't get people to change by screaming at them about how evil and selfish they are. They will just think you're nuts. Never worked, and won't work with this. Chareidim believe in their own cause at least as much as you believe in yours, certainly much more than most Zionists believe in theirs. If you feel it is so important to change the Chareidim, you will need to find another way.
And there are many more ways in which screaming can prevent any potential change. The only thing screaming does is let you release your anger, but it is not a good middah to constantly show how angry you are. It just makes you an angry person in total. In that audio clip with Rabbi Neugroschel, you just sounded unhinged, yelling and screaming with anger, while he was responding calmly and collectedly. It's not worth whatever you (delusionally) believe you are trying to accomplish.
Look, the bottom line is that the only meaningful change will happen due to financial pressure. Which in turn only happens due to political pressure. Which in turn depends on public campaigning.
That's deluded, insane logic that only somebody who has devoted his life to hatred could think.
Chareidim will not do something that they are fundamentally against because of financial pressure. They are already in deep poverty (which is yes, a big sacrifice), mostly because of their refusal to cave to secular pressure. Financial pressure will get them out to work earlier (when they are already older, with a big family, when the army no longer wants them), and will increase the size of the black market. That's all it will do.
Clearly you have no idea what 'deep poverty' is. Despite the 'deep poverty' 99% have somewhere to live, 99% don't become ill from malnutrition, 99% of the children look happy and well fed. This 'deep poverty' stuff is marketing.
They won’t do something they are against due to financial pressure…like scamming the system in the states and Israel to cheat on taxes and take more than their fair share? After all its says לא תגנוב….🙄 hypocrites
Want a biblical source? The capture of Dina. Shimon and Levi took the matter publicly and forcefully. The father disagreed and wanted, we can infer a behind the scenes negotiation. Both approaches are seen in politics today. See Rashi on the question why Dina is identified as their sister. Because, writes Rashi, this is what siblings do (or should do) for each other: moser nefesh. A lesson for us all
We can also scream about your side's issues and shortcomings as much a you scream about ours but until we acknowledge that we both have issues and get off our high horses (one you clearly sit very proudly and smugly on), you're not the savior you think you are; you're just stirring up machlokes
Natan, why even bother with these cowards who hide behind (cringey) pseudonyms... This girl (can't be a guy as he'd be learning rather than commenting) is not worth your time...
Most of Rabbi Slifkin's posts, and most of the anti-chareidi comments here are the written equivalent of screaming- by any objective standard. I object to any form of screaming. Calling somebody a Nazi is totally inappropriate.
Joining the army is a "cantonist" decree. It's "Auschwitz" for s'fardim. And then there was a rav screaming "inquisition! inquisition!"- I forgot the context, probably because the connection was way off base.
Earlier this week MK Maklev cited איכה over the cancellation of the daycare stipend (which itself was a bit of a fraud.) - עֽוֹלָלַ֔יִךְ הָֽעֲטוּפִ֥ים בְּרָעָ֖ב, רְאֵ֤ה וְֽהַבִּ֔יטָה לְמִ֖י עוֹלַ֣לְתָּ כֹּ֑ה, עוֹלָלִים שָׁאֲלוּ לֶחֶם, פֹּרֵשׂ אֵין לָהֶם"
Chareidim are "parasites". By not joining the army they are "spilling their brother's blood". They are "thieves". They are "murderers". All of this stuff you can find on this blog, enthusiastically cheered on by the commenters. I think you get the idea. I believe your side is just as guilty of this ghastly rhetoric as the chareidi side. Both sides need to stop. Now. And approach each other with love. That doesn't mean we can't criticize each other. But the over-the-top rhetoric, the obsessive displays of hatred need to stop.
Be fair. It gets really hard to find another word to describe the constant dependence on public assistance, not as a temporary stopgap or rescue measure, but as a way of life. And when this extends to refusing to stand in our common defense while others sacrifice life and limb, it does rather beg the comparison. There's only so many euphemisms one can use.
You must be referring to all Israelis, who rely on the public assistance of me, the American taxpayer, right? 😉 But more seriously, a chareidi could just as easily say, what do you call people with a thoroughly non-Jewish philosophy, enemies of the Torah, who wants to destroy the yeshiva system? There's only so many euphemisms one can use...The point is, anybody can come up with any excuse they want to express their own worst middos. But expressing your worst middos is a bad thing, not a good thing. Be better than this. Because I know you are better than this.
Sure, if the the Bnei Gad refused at first and the Torah spent the next 7,000 pages of Moshe screaming louder and louder, throwing a multi-year tantrum, using every insult he could think of, and then finally the Bnei Gad said "you know what, you're right", that would be a good example!
We've tried appeasement, persuasion, creating opportunities and all the rest. The Charedi communities have doubled down. It is time to fix things even if it hurts their sense of entitlement
Hardly. "We tried convincing. We tried appeasement. We tried gently encouraging. But they just got worse, literally spit on the heroes who protect them, and won't even do the bare minimum that citizenship and morals require."
A healthy organism can sustain a certain parasite load. When it endangers the entire economy and the very lives of all citizens it cannot be allowed to continue. The Charedim have to shoulder all the burdens of decency and being citizens in the real world.
Now, now, no need for the inappropriate biological comparisons. That's no way to talk. I am sure you have a beautiful Jewish soul, and all this spite is just on the surface, but as soon as we break the surface a bit, your soul will shine with love for your Jewish brothers and sisters!
Also, one more thing...You shouldn't take the stories you make up about your imaginary enemies so seriously...that will help. But you are definitely a good person. A great person! A great Jew!
Blocking the light rail or main thoroughfares, spitting on people, throwing eggs and dirty diapers, I would say are comparable to tantrums. Something Leftist and haredi "activists" have in common.
So sad. I understand that you understand one side and that makes you angry but it doesn't make you right. That said I hope we can *all* come together and learn from each other, very much including chareidim from you guys. And (perhaps bzchus the achdus) we should see yeshuos
Thank you Rabbi Slifkin. I've been talking myself blue in the face to chareidy family, the justifications and excuses are pathetic. Hopefully sharing your writings on a graeter scale will help since they do support your other sefarim.
>"in the Hebrew-speaking world, there is no shortage of books and articles from dati-leumi rabbis explaining the importance of army service and why the charedi exemption is deeply religiously problematic. However, in the English-speaking world, there is a dearth of resources. This is despite the crucial importance of this [topic]"
This is true in general: there are relatively few books in English on contemporary ideology and theology in the orthodox Jewish world. And the ones that exist are often low quality and simplistic. The exceptions are a few books by YU rabbis, and translations of Hebrew books (such as the one by R' Amnon Bazak).
I always thought it was ironic to see yeshiva guys protesting army service because of tzniyus by wrestling in the street with young women police officers . . .
Even better, you could make a list of all your posts which are lists of other posts. That way, when you're feeling listless, you'll have something to keep you busy.
I am reminded that the Maccabees had to be willing to defend themselves on Shabbat . . . or be massacred. There is a time for war and a time for peace . . .
Great job presenting only one side of an argument!
I happen to think a lot of your arguments have merit; change does need to happen in the chareidi world as they miss a lot of really important things (that's why I read your blog), but you guys are just as guilty on your end of the very same thing.
I think it’s a wonderful idea to publish a book, it will be the first book of its kind in the English speaking world. I think it would be so much more meaningful if you could find a sincere charedi rabbi that would co-author it with you and have two sides of the argument on all the debates. I write this with outmost respect, that sometimes your posts in this matter have a streak of “chip on your shoulder” and so the point is less powerful when written with that stance.
You have some wonderful arguments and very powerful points, I would imagine most honest readers would sympathise with drafting charadim after reading both sides. (I accept you will find it near impossible to find a charadi rabbi to agree, and even if one does, he may get ostracised for it!).
Incidentally, I read your book, rationalism v mysticism and had the exact same thought, perhaps one day that could be published jointly with a mystic who is prepared to have honest debate.
Many thanks for all your posts on this matter and clarity of thought.
I will probably buy the book anyway, but I would be very interested indeed to see your current views on the positions by which you held in Second Focus. I don't mean the army vs Torah study - I mean the much more basic point in Second Focus, when you discussed the difference between viewing things in a Torah mindset or a contemporary mindset as an either / or choice.
Dear R. Slifkin, if you're going to publish a new book, here are two small observations regarding the chapter "The Nature of Torah" of "Rationalism vs. Mysticism" -- two places where you didn't make your point forcefully enough.
1. Regarding Sanhedrin 49a which talks about David being "Osek Batorah":
אילמלא דוד, לא עשה יואב מלחמה, ואילמלא יואב, לא עסק דוד בתורה
The Pasuk that the Gemara itself brings (II Samuel 8:15) shows that being "Osek Batorah" doesn't mean just "sitting and learning Torah" -- it means judging the people according to Torah:
(In your book you refer to the Maharsha in a footnote, who apparently says roughly the same thing -- I didn't check -- but maybe this point could be stated more explicitly.)
2. In your book you didn't talk about Hillel Hazaken's statement that "Do not do to others what you hate that others do to you" is the entire Torah "on one foot". This is a powerful statement, that shows that the Torah wants us to use our inner conscience and feelings of right and wrong, as opposed to the Torah imposing an arbitrary set of rules, which are decreed to be "right and wrong" by definition. (From where in the Torah did Hillel get this idea? There are dozens of biblical sources; I can list a few of them separately if desired.)
In any case, this statement by Hillel is cited by Rambam in his commentary to Peah 1:1. Rambam explains why "Talmud Torah Keneged Kulam" -- why Torah study causes people to benefit both in this world and in the next world: When you are nice to people, people are nice back to you, so you benefit in this world. The entire point of the Mitzvot Bein Adam Lechavero are summarized by what Hillel said "Do not do to others what you hate that others do to you". And the entire point of studying Torah is that study leads to practice. Therefore, learning Torah leads you to be a good person, which leads you to benefit in this world and the next world. This is what Rambam writes.
In the book you mention this commentary of the Rambam, but you do not mention Hillel's statement, nor Rambam's quote of it.
So my question is, if charaidim learning is providing spiritual security, why are they taking bein hazmanim this year? Why is there there no miluim like for the actual army?
Kol HaKavod. Please include a passage regarding the Charedi response to the Torah passage where Moshe upbraids the two tribes not willing to join in the conquest of the land and your response to the Charedi objections
Why? It's a great response! Do you have a better one? I thought about Shaul's response, which is also a good point, but not as obvious. Rabbi Slifkin's rejoinder is a joke, which just shows how unseriously he takes this as a Torah topic
The simplest answer is that Herzi Halevi isn't Moshe rabbeinu. And Moshe Rabbeinu was the head of the 'parasitic' shevet Levi. And his concern was quite explicitly that they were going cause a panic among the rest of the shevatim like the meraglim did. In short the passuk is about as much an argument for voting for UTJ as it is for joining the IDF.
(Also, the punishment for bnei Gaz and bnei Reuven if they didn't do shivyon ba'netel was that they would *get an equal share of the land.* They weren't going to be stripped of any general rights...)
In general, it's not convincing to yank a passuk which had a very specific context as an argument against someone's religious views. It would be like saying lo sechayeh kol neshama as an argument for nuking Gaza. Whatever the merits of nuking Gaza or drafting charedim might be, citing chapter and verse like some sort of missionary isn't really going to convince anyone who doesn't agree with your position to begin with.
Shaul, thank you for linking that. That is certainly a revealing conversation right there, which really goes to the heart of what this debate is *really* all about. Unfortunately, it appears like some of our dear Jewish brothers are looking for an outlet for their worst middos, and they think they found it. However, I am confident that as good Jews at heart, they will soon realize the error of their ways.
I walked around yesterday, Tisha Ba'av, with this exact refrain in my head: there is no unity. There is no הכרת הטוב. There is not even acknowledgement by large swaths of the Charedi world of the heartbreaking sacrifice. And my heart alternately breaks and is so angry. So angry for the widows, like Hadas Lowenstern. So angry that my own family members and friends can be so selfish. I just want to cry.
So please write the book. Write it and have it in translated into Hebrew. The change has to come from the people and the leadership will follow. If American Charedim in Israel can't stomach the facts on the ground, give them resources to fall back on and say: We want to be a part of this country and share in the blood, sweat, and tears of עם ישראל. We want our kids to value Israel and- yes- join the army. In one of the Charedi Hesder programs- they do exist.
And then maybe there will be a hint of unity. Maybe ביחד ננצח will actually have a hint of meaning.
"There is not even acknowledgement by large swaths of the Charedi world of the heartbreaking sacrifice." To be honest - and I don't know if this is a limmud zechut or not - I think that most of them are not even aware of it.
I'm sorry, you won't get people to change by screaming at them about how evil and selfish they are. They will just think you're nuts. Never worked, and won't work with this. Chareidim believe in their own cause at least as much as you believe in yours, certainly much more than most Zionists believe in theirs. If you feel it is so important to change the Chareidim, you will need to find another way.
There's other ways in which screaming accomplishes change.
And there are many more ways in which screaming can prevent any potential change. The only thing screaming does is let you release your anger, but it is not a good middah to constantly show how angry you are. It just makes you an angry person in total. In that audio clip with Rabbi Neugroschel, you just sounded unhinged, yelling and screaming with anger, while he was responding calmly and collectedly. It's not worth whatever you (delusionally) believe you are trying to accomplish.
Look, the bottom line is that the only meaningful change will happen due to financial pressure. Which in turn only happens due to political pressure. Which in turn depends on public campaigning.
That's deluded, insane logic that only somebody who has devoted his life to hatred could think.
Chareidim will not do something that they are fundamentally against because of financial pressure. They are already in deep poverty (which is yes, a big sacrifice), mostly because of their refusal to cave to secular pressure. Financial pressure will get them out to work earlier (when they are already older, with a big family, when the army no longer wants them), and will increase the size of the black market. That's all it will do.
Clearly you have no idea what 'deep poverty' is. Despite the 'deep poverty' 99% have somewhere to live, 99% don't become ill from malnutrition, 99% of the children look happy and well fed. This 'deep poverty' stuff is marketing.
They won’t do something they are against due to financial pressure…like scamming the system in the states and Israel to cheat on taxes and take more than their fair share? After all its says לא תגנוב….🙄 hypocrites
Want a biblical source? The capture of Dina. Shimon and Levi took the matter publicly and forcefully. The father disagreed and wanted, we can infer a behind the scenes negotiation. Both approaches are seen in politics today. See Rashi on the question why Dina is identified as their sister. Because, writes Rashi, this is what siblings do (or should do) for each other: moser nefesh. A lesson for us all
We can also scream about your side's issues and shortcomings as much a you scream about ours but until we acknowledge that we both have issues and get off our high horses (one you clearly sit very proudly and smugly on), you're not the savior you think you are; you're just stirring up machlokes
Which issues in the Dati leumi community impinges and infringes in any way on the Chareidi community?
Natan, why even bother with these cowards who hide behind (cringey) pseudonyms... This girl (can't be a guy as he'd be learning rather than commenting) is not worth your time...
Actually you are insulting women who can learn circles around this guy
Yes. THIS is the root. Anonymity leads people to exaggerate. To not feel responsible for what they write.
Who's "screaming"? Especially since your side tosses around "Shmad!" "Sonei Torah!", "Nazi!", etc. And that's just for polite disputes.
Most of Rabbi Slifkin's posts, and most of the anti-chareidi comments here are the written equivalent of screaming- by any objective standard. I object to any form of screaming. Calling somebody a Nazi is totally inappropriate.
Joining the army is a "cantonist" decree. It's "Auschwitz" for s'fardim. And then there was a rav screaming "inquisition! inquisition!"- I forgot the context, probably because the connection was way off base.
Earlier this week MK Maklev cited איכה over the cancellation of the daycare stipend (which itself was a bit of a fraud.) - עֽוֹלָלַ֔יִךְ הָֽעֲטוּפִ֥ים בְּרָעָ֖ב, רְאֵ֤ה וְֽהַבִּ֔יטָה לְמִ֖י עוֹלַ֣לְתָּ כֹּ֑ה, עוֹלָלִים שָׁאֲלוּ לֶחֶם, פֹּרֵשׂ אֵין לָהֶם"
That's just weird and inappropriate.
Chareidim are "parasites". By not joining the army they are "spilling their brother's blood". They are "thieves". They are "murderers". All of this stuff you can find on this blog, enthusiastically cheered on by the commenters. I think you get the idea. I believe your side is just as guilty of this ghastly rhetoric as the chareidi side. Both sides need to stop. Now. And approach each other with love. That doesn't mean we can't criticize each other. But the over-the-top rhetoric, the obsessive displays of hatred need to stop.
Be fair. It gets really hard to find another word to describe the constant dependence on public assistance, not as a temporary stopgap or rescue measure, but as a way of life. And when this extends to refusing to stand in our common defense while others sacrifice life and limb, it does rather beg the comparison. There's only so many euphemisms one can use.
You must be referring to all Israelis, who rely on the public assistance of me, the American taxpayer, right? 😉 But more seriously, a chareidi could just as easily say, what do you call people with a thoroughly non-Jewish philosophy, enemies of the Torah, who wants to destroy the yeshiva system? There's only so many euphemisms one can use...The point is, anybody can come up with any excuse they want to express their own worst middos. But expressing your worst middos is a bad thing, not a good thing. Be better than this. Because I know you are better than this.
*Very* weird.
'I'm sorry, you won't get people to change by screaming at them about how evil and selfish they are...Never worked"
הַאַחֵיכֶם יָבֹאוּ לַמִּלְחָמָה וְאַתֶּם תֵּשְׁבוּ פֹה
Sure, if the the Bnei Gad refused at first and the Torah spent the next 7,000 pages of Moshe screaming louder and louder, throwing a multi-year tantrum, using every insult he could think of, and then finally the Bnei Gad said "you know what, you're right", that would be a good example!
They had shame and a conscience…you and hareidim don’t…
We've tried appeasement, persuasion, creating opportunities and all the rest. The Charedi communities have doubled down. It is time to fix things even if it hurts their sense of entitlement
"What we tried is not working, so let's just have a big tantrum and burn everything down"- a very mature person.
Hardly. "We tried convincing. We tried appeasement. We tried gently encouraging. But they just got worse, literally spit on the heroes who protect them, and won't even do the bare minimum that citizenship and morals require."
A healthy organism can sustain a certain parasite load. When it endangers the entire economy and the very lives of all citizens it cannot be allowed to continue. The Charedim have to shoulder all the burdens of decency and being citizens in the real world.
Now, now, no need for the inappropriate biological comparisons. That's no way to talk. I am sure you have a beautiful Jewish soul, and all this spite is just on the surface, but as soon as we break the surface a bit, your soul will shine with love for your Jewish brothers and sisters!
Also, one more thing...You shouldn't take the stories you make up about your imaginary enemies so seriously...that will help. But you are definitely a good person. A great person! A great Jew!
Dude get a life
That seems to be the response of haredi leaders to even the suggestion of change.
Maybe some, and I have the same problem with them, but it's definitely the response of the anti-chareidim.
Blocking the light rail or main thoroughfares, spitting on people, throwing eggs and dirty diapers, I would say are comparable to tantrums. Something Leftist and haredi "activists" have in common.
The evilness and selfishness is all yours and theirs….
So sad. I understand that you understand one side and that makes you angry but it doesn't make you right. That said I hope we can *all* come together and learn from each other, very much including chareidim from you guys. And (perhaps bzchus the achdus) we should see yeshuos
"הכרת הטוב"
That's "haktarat hatov," meaning "seeing the good," right? Pardon me, I'm learning Hebrew.
Recognizing the good to be exact.
Hey, you forgot to include the list of Irrationalist Modoxism articles! For all the dear compatriots, near and far, for your enjoyment!
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/and-we-call-in-the-name-of-god
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-frontlines
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-city-next-to-the-river
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/how-pleasant-it-is-when-brothers
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/why-must-our-sons-risk-their-lives
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-reporter-who-was-concerned-about
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/what-is-the-point-of-torah-scholars
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/hareidi-hasbara
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/is-the-protection-of-torah-a-chareidi
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/voice-from-the-front-3
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/daas-torah-vs-daas-shotim
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/by-what-merit-do-we-succeed-in-battle
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/misleibeled
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/an-open-letter-to-our-hiloni-brethren
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/what-achdus-does-and-doesnt-mean
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/two-different-religions
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/words-of-chizuk-from-rav-yehoshua
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-review-of-jud-su-veit-harlan-1940
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-soldiers-perspective-on-drafting
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-gratitude-attitude
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/voice-from-the-front-about-machlokes
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/theo-dicey
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-sobering-perspective
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-war-against-the-torah
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/rabbi-moshe-neria-hater-of-the-army
Or maybe, IrMo could collate and edit *their own* articles, instead of trying yo leech off someone else's blog.
Thank you Rabbi Slifkin. I've been talking myself blue in the face to chareidy family, the justifications and excuses are pathetic. Hopefully sharing your writings on a graeter scale will help since they do support your other sefarim.
Looking forward to this book!
>"in the Hebrew-speaking world, there is no shortage of books and articles from dati-leumi rabbis explaining the importance of army service and why the charedi exemption is deeply religiously problematic. However, in the English-speaking world, there is a dearth of resources. This is despite the crucial importance of this [topic]"
This is true in general: there are relatively few books in English on contemporary ideology and theology in the orthodox Jewish world. And the ones that exist are often low quality and simplistic. The exceptions are a few books by YU rabbis, and translations of Hebrew books (such as the one by R' Amnon Bazak).
Maggid is translating a lot of good ones.
Such as the one by R' Bazak. :-)
Wow I've been reading you for a while, never knew you wrote on the subject.
I always thought it was ironic to see yeshiva guys protesting army service because of tzniyus by wrestling in the street with young women police officers . . .
A fun and no doubt virtuous activity for bein hazmanim!
Even better, you could make a list of all your posts which are lists of other posts. That way, when you're feeling listless, you'll have something to keep you busy.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/torah-and-army-the-big-index
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/torah-chazal-and-science
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/a-rationalist-pesach
You could call it...... 'Rationalist Listeria.'
My goodness, you know my blog better than I do. How come you are so obsessed?
I am reminded that the Maccabees had to be willing to defend themselves on Shabbat . . . or be massacred. There is a time for war and a time for peace . . .
And the charedim of their time called them sinners for it.
If not for the Maccabees we wouldn't be here today. Show some respect.
Great job presenting only one side of an argument!
I happen to think a lot of your arguments have merit; change does need to happen in the chareidi world as they miss a lot of really important things (that's why I read your blog), but you guys are just as guilty on your end of the very same thing.
I think it’s a wonderful idea to publish a book, it will be the first book of its kind in the English speaking world. I think it would be so much more meaningful if you could find a sincere charedi rabbi that would co-author it with you and have two sides of the argument on all the debates. I write this with outmost respect, that sometimes your posts in this matter have a streak of “chip on your shoulder” and so the point is less powerful when written with that stance.
You have some wonderful arguments and very powerful points, I would imagine most honest readers would sympathise with drafting charadim after reading both sides. (I accept you will find it near impossible to find a charadi rabbi to agree, and even if one does, he may get ostracised for it!).
Incidentally, I read your book, rationalism v mysticism and had the exact same thought, perhaps one day that could be published jointly with a mystic who is prepared to have honest debate.
Many thanks for all your posts on this matter and clarity of thought.
Best wishes,
Martin
Actually I was thinking that it could include the writings of Nosson Slifkin on this topic!
I will probably buy the book anyway, but I would be very interested indeed to see your current views on the positions by which you held in Second Focus. I don't mean the army vs Torah study - I mean the much more basic point in Second Focus, when you discussed the difference between viewing things in a Torah mindset or a contemporary mindset as an either / or choice.
Well, the "contemporary mindset" thinks Israel should just cease to exist. So we know what side the charedim fall on.
This could be a seperate book
Nosson Slifkin vs Dr. Natan Slifkin
Dear R. Slifkin, if you're going to publish a new book, here are two small observations regarding the chapter "The Nature of Torah" of "Rationalism vs. Mysticism" -- two places where you didn't make your point forcefully enough.
1. Regarding Sanhedrin 49a which talks about David being "Osek Batorah":
אילמלא דוד, לא עשה יואב מלחמה, ואילמלא יואב, לא עסק דוד בתורה
The Pasuk that the Gemara itself brings (II Samuel 8:15) shows that being "Osek Batorah" doesn't mean just "sitting and learning Torah" -- it means judging the people according to Torah:
וַיְהִי דָוִד עֹשֶׂה מִשְׁפָּט וּצְדָקָה לְכָל עַמּוֹ וְיוֹאָב בֶּן צְרוּיָה עַל הַצָּבָא
Meaning, people would come to King David with their personal disputes, and David would render judgement. We see this also from II Samuel 15:2
וַיְהִי כָּל הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר יִהְיֶה לּוֹ רִיב לָבוֹא אֶל הַמֶּלֶךְ לַמִּשְׁפָּט וַיִּקְרָא אַבְשָׁלוֹם אֵלָיו...
(In your book you refer to the Maharsha in a footnote, who apparently says roughly the same thing -- I didn't check -- but maybe this point could be stated more explicitly.)
2. In your book you didn't talk about Hillel Hazaken's statement that "Do not do to others what you hate that others do to you" is the entire Torah "on one foot". This is a powerful statement, that shows that the Torah wants us to use our inner conscience and feelings of right and wrong, as opposed to the Torah imposing an arbitrary set of rules, which are decreed to be "right and wrong" by definition. (From where in the Torah did Hillel get this idea? There are dozens of biblical sources; I can list a few of them separately if desired.)
In any case, this statement by Hillel is cited by Rambam in his commentary to Peah 1:1. Rambam explains why "Talmud Torah Keneged Kulam" -- why Torah study causes people to benefit both in this world and in the next world: When you are nice to people, people are nice back to you, so you benefit in this world. The entire point of the Mitzvot Bein Adam Lechavero are summarized by what Hillel said "Do not do to others what you hate that others do to you". And the entire point of studying Torah is that study leads to practice. Therefore, learning Torah leads you to be a good person, which leads you to benefit in this world and the next world. This is what Rambam writes.
In the book you mention this commentary of the Rambam, but you do not mention Hillel's statement, nor Rambam's quote of it.
In any case, good luck with your book!
So my question is, if charaidim learning is providing spiritual security, why are they taking bein hazmanim this year? Why is there there no miluim like for the actual army?
I’ve seen no calls to not have bein hazemanim. This isn’t true.
Let us know when it's published and if there will be an ebook
LOL He said he did not even start to write it yet
If you insist on being a sneering troll at least try to be amusing
What an excellent idea. I look forward to buying the book when it is published.
I am American and very much appreciate your posts on this topic. I know first hand that there are many others.
Troll
Kol HaKavod. Please include a passage regarding the Charedi response to the Torah passage where Moshe upbraids the two tribes not willing to join in the conquest of the land and your response to the Charedi objections
The only response I've heard is R. Neugreoschol claiming that it's because they were shepherds rather than yeshiva students
That is the obvious response, isn't it?
No, because it begs the question of why didn't he tell them that that they could stay there and learn Torah and that would be even better
Huh?! Did you even read the parshah? The whole point of taking that land was for them to be shepherds.
Obvious is irrelevant. It is the wrong response.
Why? It's a great response! Do you have a better one? I thought about Shaul's response, which is also a good point, but not as obvious. Rabbi Slifkin's rejoinder is a joke, which just shows how unseriously he takes this as a Torah topic
The simplest answer is that Herzi Halevi isn't Moshe rabbeinu. And Moshe Rabbeinu was the head of the 'parasitic' shevet Levi. And his concern was quite explicitly that they were going cause a panic among the rest of the shevatim like the meraglim did. In short the passuk is about as much an argument for voting for UTJ as it is for joining the IDF.
(Also, the punishment for bnei Gaz and bnei Reuven if they didn't do shivyon ba'netel was that they would *get an equal share of the land.* They weren't going to be stripped of any general rights...)
In general, it's not convincing to yank a passuk which had a very specific context as an argument against someone's religious views. It would be like saying lo sechayeh kol neshama as an argument for nuking Gaza. Whatever the merits of nuking Gaza or drafting charedim might be, citing chapter and verse like some sort of missionary isn't really going to convince anyone who doesn't agree with your position to begin with.
I really do hope that if Dr Slifkin goes ahead with this project of his, he'll at least try to get a level-headed editor to rein in some of his shrillest 'arguments,' rather than running with wackadoodle claims about charedi obesity https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-idf-doesnt-want-charedim/comment/58436524 .
Shevet Levi both served the nation and fought in battle. That's why they had swords.
Shevet Levi did not serve in the army, as the Rishonim explain.
בְנָיָהוּ בֶן-יְהוֹיָדָע
I said Shevet, you mentioned individuals.
וְהַלְוִיִּ֖ם לְמַטֵּ֣ה אֲבֹתָ֑ם לֹ֥א הׇתְפָּקְד֖וּ בְּתֹוכָֽם
Shaul, thank you for linking that. That is certainly a revealing conversation right there, which really goes to the heart of what this debate is *really* all about. Unfortunately, it appears like some of our dear Jewish brothers are looking for an outlet for their worst middos, and they think they found it. However, I am confident that as good Jews at heart, they will soon realize the error of their ways.
"Also, the punishment for bnei Gaz and bnei Reuven..."
...was that they were exiled first.
"...was that they were exiled first."
Which is yet another way to debunk the talking point about shivyon ba'netel. The 2 and 1/2 shevatim fought valiantly. https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15806/jewish/Chapter-22.htm Why on earth were they the ones to be exiled first??? The bagatz should have ordered Tiglas Pileser to leave them alone. Go after the religious fanatics like chizkiyahu https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15925/jewish/Chapter-19.htm#v15 instead.