Further to your last post regarding, "isn't this enough" I must congratulate you and implore you to continue your vital holy work. I think that Rabbi Slifkin must be one of the lone voices in the English speaking world that is highlighting the correct and moral voice that Jews worldwide need to hear.
Israeli's and possibly Americans do not realise that in the UK and many other countries with relatively small Jewish populations, the default position is charedism, our Rabbi's, teachers and leaders have in the main had a Charedi education. So even within a mainstream centrist orthodox community, the Rabbonim do not give over Rabbi Slifkin's perspective, they would mainly not tackle these subjects, as its a conflict between there own beliefs and what the community will tolerate. This results in ignorance and confusion, most English Jews automatically assume that Charedim are "frummer" or "better" in some way, and so the "gedolim" must be right and it leaves a lot of unanswered questions which are most often just not discussed and brushed away.
It is so critical to have this voice, and these discussions brought to the forefront to arm people with the knowledge to be able to have conversations and give over a different view (the correct one!) At the very least to at least allow people to know the correct Derech even if they are not going to voice it to others. I for one have gained a huge amount from your year of blogs on the topic and I look forward to the book on the subject.
Good luck, continue what you are doing, Shana Tovah and we should only hear good news coming out of Israel after such a difficult year for the Hostages/Soldiers, the families of Hostages/Soldiers and all of Israel.
The reason why people perceive chareidim as being frummer and better religiously than modern orthodox is because it's undeniably accurate. Having some super-obsessed guy who posts endless rants filled with stupidity and am-haaratzus isn't going to change that. And if the modern orthodox community is so debilitated that they will take this guy on as their intellectual, religious champion, I truly feel sorry for them.
Looking at the packed minyan factories paying scant attention to zemanei tefillah, I think that is debatable.
"Better religious" - yeah right, the long glamarous shetels, the obsession with luxury gashmious as seen in the ads of Ami, Mishapach magazine are really 'better religious'. Gourmet pesach programmes, yeah right. They are more megusham than most goyim I know. Those ads would look excessive in most goyshe magazines.
The treatment of abuse, allegation of abuse and abusers (or rather non-treatment) in chareidland is really 'better religious' and 'frummer', yeah right.
The nepotism in granting posts and 'shtellers' to family members, more religious right?
The obsession with yenem's money (because chareidim who can't learn well enough, literally have nothing else to talk about but business and money - you see them the whole time in coffee rooms of shteiblech talking business and money) is not 'better religiously'.
The dishonesty in money matters, the swindling of non-Jews, really frummer and 'better religiously' right? Chassidshe chadorim claiming from the state for IT equipment, really frummer, right? Benefit fraud, really the mark of a religious Jew.
Gur on Gur violence, more religious right? Burning trash-cans, general rioting, stone throwing, store burning - more religious right?
Underneath the heimeishe levush, it is very much deniable. Indeed it is.
You're missing the biggest thing. Lack of participation in the war is the biggest flaw in their approach to religion.
הפורש מדרכי צבור אף על פי שלא עבר עבירות אלא נבדל מעדת ישראל ואינו עושה מצות בכללן ולא נכנס בצרתן ולא מתענה בתעניתן אלא הולך בדרכו כאחד מגויי הארץ וכאילו אינו מהן אין לו חלק לעולם הבא.
Haha, you should be a mashgiach in a yeshiva! You listened to enough mussar shmuezen and can parrot them word for word, that's for sure! Not sure what that has to do with my point.
You must be very interested in this topic reading post you can’t handle as a grown person…insulting and mocking (I’m sure you were a tzadik listening to your mashgiach)
Iif you have a constructive argument and you want to help adding some info please delight us with you insight
If not even if you are not agree with the topics here
I highly recommend to you stop following the rabbi Nathan
"one syllable"? That is not one syllable. And sure it's undeniably accurate. If that's the best you can come up with, you made my point for me. Because it's all relative.
Per the relativity set out by the nevi'im, the chareidim are doing a lousy job. Focussing entirely on the ritualistic aspects of our religion (to an extent, chassidim have made a mockery of some of it with their new version of Judaism, replacing torah learning with rebbe obsession, ignroing zemani tefillah etc), whilst leaving the morals far behind. But hey, they look heimish, so its all ok.
I remember reading an article in 2005 in the Jewish Observer, which was published at the time by the Aguda (it’s no longer being published) an article about how chareidim from North America would have to adjust to life in the chareidi community in Israel. It noted that if you were a blue shirt to shul, if you had a job, or if your kids played soccer, you could end up being an outcast from the community. To me, this was especially weird because in my community, the kids from the Aguda and the kids from the young Israel played in the same baseball league together. Also, there were plenty of professionals who are members of
each shul.
I remember at the time thinking that chareidim in Israel are not more religious-they’re just crazy.
Of course, all generalizations are false. But I wonder why the leaders of the chareidi community in Israel object to enlistment of bachurim who are not learning in yeshiva. Is their Torah so weak that it cannot stand up to exposure to the secular community? (Obviously, it’s not just a matter of religion – it’s also a matter of social control.)
This is especially ironic these days when so many of the Israeli soldiers are starting to turn to religion, starting to put on.tefillin.
I am fortunate to have daily contact with her chareidim in my community, but I am living in America. In Israel, as their numbers grow, they are going to be confronted with the need to take a greater role in the running of every day life in society.
I pray that the new year brings ahavas Yisroel, achdus, and shalom on all of Clal Yisroel.
You see, in the world of responsible, mature adults, there is understanding that adopting an attitude and approach to life which, if everybody would adopt such an attitude and approach the entire system and infrastructure of society would collapse, is perverse, corrupt and morally reprehensible. Yet, that is exactly the attitude and approach that chareidim have adopted. It doesn't make them frummer, it makes them obscene.
Before this coming year's Yomim Noraim, more than ever, the individual members of the chareidi community must search and open their minds to the plain and simple moral voices of their hearts. It's not hard. One only needs to imagine what life choices their righteous mother would have made, and what choices she would've wanted us to make.
Most individuals and societies would fail your "adopting..." test, especially the Zionists. They would fail it quite badly. And I'm not even anti-Zionist. It's just a stupid test.
You have spent too long in the charedi bubble. All societies that survive more than a generation understand that work needs to be done and if everyone is free loading the system will fail. So do all mature people who are in touch with reality. The fact that the charedim do not is a sign that their subculture is pathological and unsustainable
Look at how your own words betray your position! You now openly admit that the chareidim are no better than "most individuals and societies" whose perverse self interests are destroying the foundations of the successful and tolerant countries in which they live. Why is it so difficult to open your eyes, just a little, and recognize how pitifully absurd the entire chareidi enterprise has become? Serious Torah study is wonderful, but Torah study has become as much of an "Avoda Zara" for chareidim as settling the West Bank has become for extremist Zionists.
No, you are wrong. Don't you understand? Forget Zionists and all the other "individuals and socities" you think about. The chareidim are causing great harm!! They must change. Zionists needing to change doesn't alleviate the need for chareidim to change. You claimed chareidim are "frummer" than everyone else. It is simply false. They have much soul searching to do. Truly frum people would acknowledge that and not defend themselves with the adolescent excuse that other groups are just as bad. It is way past time for the chareidi community to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.
Coherent answer to what? He is not asking questions, he is writing endless, stupid tirades. Look at the website Irrationalist Modoxism if you want to see explanations of the chareidi position. They don't post a lot but there are a few posts from an actual soldier there, which is more than can be said for Slifkin.
Slifkin has his own blog, where the content is his to choose. You, on the other hand, have a bizarre obsession with a blog you can so easily ignore. Looks like you really don't connect with לימוד תורה if you feel this strange drive to attack his blog instead of learning. Sad, sad, sad. I actually know people with Down Syndrome who have satisfying engagement with learning (leining the parsha, finishing Mishna so many times they could give their own shiurim), but you don't even have that. You just snipe at Natan Slifkin. Sad, sad, sad.
Its all a smokescreen. Nothing to do with Limud Hatorah.
They will not join the IDF because they believe it will ruin their charedi lifestyle, and they're willing to go to jail or to be killed as long as their charedi lifestyle is not ruined.
The only option I see to get the charedim to join the fighting is to create a separate army for charedim in a way that they have no contact with anyone who is not charedi. I believe most charedim would join the charedi army (except for Satmar and Toldos, which will never have anything to do with the State of Israel, and don't vote or take any money from the Israeli government. They will never join any army that is under the authority of the state of Israel.)
Wouldn't help. The army is a hard thing - you have to really feel an obligation to the country. And charedim don't identify as being part of the country.
It would end the instant the government assistance ended, their power to dictate government policy stopped, and they were treated the way most "Palestinians" are raised to treat Jews.
I am one of those who do think you harp too much on the chareidi issue. But this atzeres tefillah is disgusting and needs to be called out and you are 100 percent right. Where was the grand atzeres for the hostages? For our brothers at war? Only once an imaginary draft happens (not a single learning in Chareidi yeshiva boy has been drafted yet) do we see a huge atzeres. Feh.
Ash, what does "hanesunim b’tzara u’beshivya" mean? If the Atzeres would include a prayer for the soldiers and hostages, would you be ok with that? Or just the fact they are Davening for the right of their fellow Torah scholars to learn in peace irk you?
It features Trojans. Who presumably pray. (Can’t remember anything specific from the parts that I’ve read. The father of Achilles’s war-bride is from some other place, I think).
Here is a question that has been bothering me for some time and I would like to read your opinion on it. At what point do we have to start regarding the more extreme factions of the Charedi world as not part of what we perceive to be Klal Yisrael? How much of their belief system actually resembles what we believe in? They like to portray themselves as "authentic Judaism", but especially the longer this war goes on, the more I feel alienated from those who present themselves as believing and observant Jews but do not appreciate the sacrifices being made to preserve the Jewish People in Israel. Isn't it about time we simply cut them off and say, they are no longer part of us and that they are part of another religion?
Of course they do. The Jewish People is made up of those who feel that they have connected to one another. I feel no connection with those who claim to represent the Torah, something which is dear to me and to my children who have laid their lives on the line this year, and who object to shoulder the burden.
Yes, of course. Who doesn’t have assimilated family members? Or perhaps assimilated friends, for example perhaps a formerly frum who became disillusioned…
Anyway, that’s an interesting question you ask. Very sadly, there are too many extremely assimilated Jews, believing in the ‘Tikkun Olam’ idea that was just something taken from generic “help the people of the world” programs that are out there, and were taught that is the absolutely main essence of Judaism… of course, this is the legacy of certain US American Jewish organizations…And due to this terrible simplification / misrepresentation of Judaism, this “teaching” approach has eventually now brought Jews on campus screaming with Jihadis.
And yet, and yet…For decades, I have observed many people who grew up in an exclusively orthodox bubble, modern or yeshivish or hasidish, make amazingly inaccurate statements, convinced that he or she “knows” all things about non-frum Jews.
Abraham, were you perhaps hinting an opinion that all non-frum are fools, or against Yiddishkeit? If so, you are in error (by millions). Many non-frum practice large portion of the Shulchan Aruch that too many Hareidim have heart-breakingly tossed into the trash a long time ago.
Klal Yisroel is an absolute entity, created by God at Mount Sinai. Klal Yisroel consists of those who are part of the covenant with Hashem, nothing else.
If something exists in your feelings, find a name for it. Don't steal the name Klal Yisroel, Jewish people, or anything else that has been used already for thousands of years.
Rav Aron Lichtenstein would beg to differ with you about Chareidim being part of a different religion (of course, he's nowhere near the esteemed Rav Natan Slifkin in terms of Torah scholarship, the ability to articulate his Hashkafa, and his unbridled love of Israel):
Ask any of the charedim if they would prefer their "endangered" bochurim to swap places with the DL counterparts in the army and let the DL learn while they fight.
We need your clarity and fierce intelligence for public hasbara . With respect. Continually pointing out the obvious hypocrisy and shortcomings of other Jews is a holy mission, but there is a war on.
This post paints an unfair and inaccurate picture. The sequence of events was that there were those trying to get together a rally for the type of event described in the advertisement shown here. They were unable to get broad support even within the Litvish chareidi community for such an event.
The event was then transformed into one davening for those in Gaza and those threatened by rocket fire, davening for an end to the recent increae in anti-semitism, and, thirdly, davening about the recent draft law. Even the wording concerning that third objective does not use any of the inflammatory language that Slifkin quotes form the advertisement.
Basically, any of it. The current wording is "The atzeres will also address the impending implementation of new Israeli draft laws that threaten to force thousands of bnei torah into the military, posing an unprecedented threat to limud hatorah in Eretz Yisroel – the very lifeblood of the Jewish nation."
Our politicians in USA and Israel are the real problem. It is they who subsidize chareidim with other people's money. It is they who exempt chareidim from helping with the war effort.
I truly don't understand why are they doing this shouldn't they just learning Torah? I mean if learning Torah can protect from Hamas and Hezbollah missiles then learning terrorists it easily protect them from the draft?
Could be they really don't believe that Tora protect
They quote rav elchonon who days that only for spiritual matters we do our utmost השתדלות. Physical matters are less important to them (that's why they let their kids smoke).
Rabbi Nathan I would really really like to understand the position of this rabannim and charedi community (im charedi I’m so confused what can they argue) to act like this…are they really think it’s kiddish hashem?
You have any insight or idea ?
I don’t understand any of this
How can they be so opposed to IDF even if they need this to learn without worries and danger
If you truly don't understand, why don't you ask somebody who is a little bit more open-minded, and see if they can explain it to you.
Although I am very busy, in part due to the current war, I will try to make time to correspond with you if you are sincerely seeking answers. Feel free to contact me at amcha613@gmail.com
You definitely won't get an honest opinion of what their Hashkafa is from this host and commenters. How about you speak to one of the signatories and post what they told you? That would at least add some credence to the discussion.
There's an old rule that when someone presents a list, the only item they really care about is the last one.
"but presumably that was an oversight."
Ouch.
"from across the spectrum"
Inigo Montya ("You keep using that word...") comes to mind. As does Dorothy Parker's line about Katherine Hepburn, "She ran the gamut of emotions from A to B."
Also, I'm not sure if you intended this, but the state is New Jersey, not Newark. Newark is a city.
It was probably Newark that denied the permits. Its mayor, Ras Baraka, is from the far left and is running for Governor of New Jersey next year. He has been criticizing Israel since last October. :(
I looked up the site on Google maps. There would have been at most 2 square feet per attendee at the rally. There is a commuter train station a short walk from the site, but the trains only run once an hour on Sunday and each train could only safely handle a few thousand people even when packed like sardine cans. This could have been a catastrophe.
I was planning to go - but looks like I need to drop my son off at his unit instead.
Fortunately he was able to get time off work for this second round of Miluim, so that they won't need do draft people from Lakewood to defend the nation that they care so much about.
Donald Trump is threatening war with Iran. That would require doing something to massively increase the size of the US military, and that probably can only be done by instituting conscription, which ended in the US in 1973.
Of course, wars are probably less likely with Trump than with anyone else. Still, you gotta cut the man some slack: He just discovered that Iran is trying to kill them. Wonder why they would do that to him and not, say, to his opponent.
Further to your last post regarding, "isn't this enough" I must congratulate you and implore you to continue your vital holy work. I think that Rabbi Slifkin must be one of the lone voices in the English speaking world that is highlighting the correct and moral voice that Jews worldwide need to hear.
Israeli's and possibly Americans do not realise that in the UK and many other countries with relatively small Jewish populations, the default position is charedism, our Rabbi's, teachers and leaders have in the main had a Charedi education. So even within a mainstream centrist orthodox community, the Rabbonim do not give over Rabbi Slifkin's perspective, they would mainly not tackle these subjects, as its a conflict between there own beliefs and what the community will tolerate. This results in ignorance and confusion, most English Jews automatically assume that Charedim are "frummer" or "better" in some way, and so the "gedolim" must be right and it leaves a lot of unanswered questions which are most often just not discussed and brushed away.
It is so critical to have this voice, and these discussions brought to the forefront to arm people with the knowledge to be able to have conversations and give over a different view (the correct one!) At the very least to at least allow people to know the correct Derech even if they are not going to voice it to others. I for one have gained a huge amount from your year of blogs on the topic and I look forward to the book on the subject.
Good luck, continue what you are doing, Shana Tovah and we should only hear good news coming out of Israel after such a difficult year for the Hostages/Soldiers, the families of Hostages/Soldiers and all of Israel.
The reason why people perceive chareidim as being frummer and better religiously than modern orthodox is because it's undeniably accurate. Having some super-obsessed guy who posts endless rants filled with stupidity and am-haaratzus isn't going to change that. And if the modern orthodox community is so debilitated that they will take this guy on as their intellectual, religious champion, I truly feel sorry for them.
"...........because it's undeniably accurate....."
Undeniable?
Looking at the packed minyan factories paying scant attention to zemanei tefillah, I think that is debatable.
"Better religious" - yeah right, the long glamarous shetels, the obsession with luxury gashmious as seen in the ads of Ami, Mishapach magazine are really 'better religious'. Gourmet pesach programmes, yeah right. They are more megusham than most goyim I know. Those ads would look excessive in most goyshe magazines.
The treatment of abuse, allegation of abuse and abusers (or rather non-treatment) in chareidland is really 'better religious' and 'frummer', yeah right.
The nepotism in granting posts and 'shtellers' to family members, more religious right?
The obsession with yenem's money (because chareidim who can't learn well enough, literally have nothing else to talk about but business and money - you see them the whole time in coffee rooms of shteiblech talking business and money) is not 'better religiously'.
The dishonesty in money matters, the swindling of non-Jews, really frummer and 'better religiously' right? Chassidshe chadorim claiming from the state for IT equipment, really frummer, right? Benefit fraud, really the mark of a religious Jew.
Gur on Gur violence, more religious right? Burning trash-cans, general rioting, stone throwing, store burning - more religious right?
Underneath the heimeishe levush, it is very much deniable. Indeed it is.
You're missing the biggest thing. Lack of participation in the war is the biggest flaw in their approach to religion.
הפורש מדרכי צבור אף על פי שלא עבר עבירות אלא נבדל מעדת ישראל ואינו עושה מצות בכללן ולא נכנס בצרתן ולא מתענה בתעניתן אלא הולך בדרכו כאחד מגויי הארץ וכאילו אינו מהן אין לו חלק לעולם הבא.
So you assume your ideology is דרכי צבור. Did it ever occur to you that you may be...wrong?
The רמבם defines דרכי ציבור.
When you run out of straw, don't build a strawman.
Haha, you should be a mashgiach in a yeshiva! You listened to enough mussar shmuezen and can parrot them word for word, that's for sure! Not sure what that has to do with my point.
You must be very interested in this topic reading post you can’t handle as a grown person…insulting and mocking (I’m sure you were a tzadik listening to your mashgiach)
Iif you have a constructive argument and you want to help adding some info please delight us with you insight
If not even if you are not agree with the topics here
I highly recommend to you stop following the rabbi Nathan
Empty. How does it feel to know that even people with diagnosed פיגור שכלי are shteiging more than you? Sad, sad, sad.
Go invent another pseudonym, every penny, every drop that other people sweat to subsidize your personal Torah learning was a total waste.
In words of one syllable, it is very much NOT 'undeniably accurate'.
"one syllable"? That is not one syllable. And sure it's undeniably accurate. If that's the best you can come up with, you made my point for me. Because it's all relative.
Per the relativity set out by the nevi'im, the chareidim are doing a lousy job. Focussing entirely on the ritualistic aspects of our religion (to an extent, chassidim have made a mockery of some of it with their new version of Judaism, replacing torah learning with rebbe obsession, ignroing zemani tefillah etc), whilst leaving the morals far behind. But hey, they look heimish, so its all ok.
I remember reading an article in 2005 in the Jewish Observer, which was published at the time by the Aguda (it’s no longer being published) an article about how chareidim from North America would have to adjust to life in the chareidi community in Israel. It noted that if you were a blue shirt to shul, if you had a job, or if your kids played soccer, you could end up being an outcast from the community. To me, this was especially weird because in my community, the kids from the Aguda and the kids from the young Israel played in the same baseball league together. Also, there were plenty of professionals who are members of
each shul.
I remember at the time thinking that chareidim in Israel are not more religious-they’re just crazy.
Of course, all generalizations are false. But I wonder why the leaders of the chareidi community in Israel object to enlistment of bachurim who are not learning in yeshiva. Is their Torah so weak that it cannot stand up to exposure to the secular community? (Obviously, it’s not just a matter of religion – it’s also a matter of social control.)
This is especially ironic these days when so many of the Israeli soldiers are starting to turn to religion, starting to put on.tefillin.
I am fortunate to have daily contact with her chareidim in my community, but I am living in America. In Israel, as their numbers grow, they are going to be confronted with the need to take a greater role in the running of every day life in society.
I pray that the new year brings ahavas Yisroel, achdus, and shalom on all of Clal Yisroel.
You see, in the world of responsible, mature adults, there is understanding that adopting an attitude and approach to life which, if everybody would adopt such an attitude and approach the entire system and infrastructure of society would collapse, is perverse, corrupt and morally reprehensible. Yet, that is exactly the attitude and approach that chareidim have adopted. It doesn't make them frummer, it makes them obscene.
Before this coming year's Yomim Noraim, more than ever, the individual members of the chareidi community must search and open their minds to the plain and simple moral voices of their hearts. It's not hard. One only needs to imagine what life choices their righteous mother would have made, and what choices she would've wanted us to make.
Most individuals and societies would fail your "adopting..." test, especially the Zionists. They would fail it quite badly. And I'm not even anti-Zionist. It's just a stupid test.
You have spent too long in the charedi bubble. All societies that survive more than a generation understand that work needs to be done and if everyone is free loading the system will fail. So do all mature people who are in touch with reality. The fact that the charedim do not is a sign that their subculture is pathological and unsustainable
Look at how your own words betray your position! You now openly admit that the chareidim are no better than "most individuals and societies" whose perverse self interests are destroying the foundations of the successful and tolerant countries in which they live. Why is it so difficult to open your eyes, just a little, and recognize how pitifully absurd the entire chareidi enterprise has become? Serious Torah study is wonderful, but Torah study has become as much of an "Avoda Zara" for chareidim as settling the West Bank has become for extremist Zionists.
And you? You openly admit that Zionists are just as bad as chareidim! Great, so we're even Steven. Find something else to complain about.
No, you are wrong. Don't you understand? Forget Zionists and all the other "individuals and socities" you think about. The chareidim are causing great harm!! They must change. Zionists needing to change doesn't alleviate the need for chareidim to change. You claimed chareidim are "frummer" than everyone else. It is simply false. They have much soul searching to do. Truly frum people would acknowledge that and not defend themselves with the adolescent excuse that other groups are just as bad. It is way past time for the chareidi community to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.
Your ad hominem attacks don't answer any of the points made in the article.
I am not usually on the side of NS but I have not seen one coherent answer yet...
Coherent answer to what? He is not asking questions, he is writing endless, stupid tirades. Look at the website Irrationalist Modoxism if you want to see explanations of the chareidi position. They don't post a lot but there are a few posts from an actual soldier there, which is more than can be said for Slifkin.
Bait and switch
See, you can't even ask a coherent question, just passive-aggressive hints about something or other.
Or I didn't realize your lack of reading comprehension.
Slifkin has his own blog, where the content is his to choose. You, on the other hand, have a bizarre obsession with a blog you can so easily ignore. Looks like you really don't connect with לימוד תורה if you feel this strange drive to attack his blog instead of learning. Sad, sad, sad. I actually know people with Down Syndrome who have satisfying engagement with learning (leining the parsha, finishing Mishna so many times they could give their own shiurim), but you don't even have that. You just snipe at Natan Slifkin. Sad, sad, sad.
Its all a smokescreen. Nothing to do with Limud Hatorah.
They will not join the IDF because they believe it will ruin their charedi lifestyle, and they're willing to go to jail or to be killed as long as their charedi lifestyle is not ruined.
The only option I see to get the charedim to join the fighting is to create a separate army for charedim in a way that they have no contact with anyone who is not charedi. I believe most charedim would join the charedi army (except for Satmar and Toldos, which will never have anything to do with the State of Israel, and don't vote or take any money from the Israeli government. They will never join any army that is under the authority of the state of Israel.)
Wouldn't help. The army is a hard thing - you have to really feel an obligation to the country. And charedim don't identify as being part of the country.
It would end the instant the government assistance ended, their power to dictate government policy stopped, and they were treated the way most "Palestinians" are raised to treat Jews.
I am one of those who do think you harp too much on the chareidi issue. But this atzeres tefillah is disgusting and needs to be called out and you are 100 percent right. Where was the grand atzeres for the hostages? For our brothers at war? Only once an imaginary draft happens (not a single learning in Chareidi yeshiva boy has been drafted yet) do we see a huge atzeres. Feh.
Ash, what does "hanesunim b’tzara u’beshivya" mean? If the Atzeres would include a prayer for the soldiers and hostages, would you be ok with that? Or just the fact they are Davening for the right of their fellow Torah scholars to learn in peace irk you?
Equating the two is the problem
Funny that during the rally in Washington DC they claimed that it's not jewish to rally and that it won't help because it's "bitul torah".
And here I thought you were going to talk about a prayer from the Iliad or maybe the Aeneid.
The Iliad doesn't mention the Trojan Horse.
It features Trojans. Who presumably pray. (Can’t remember anything specific from the parts that I’ve read. The father of Achilles’s war-bride is from some other place, I think).
Chryses, father of Chryseis, priest of Apollo from Chryse counts as Trojan, apparently, so that's one praying Trojan I read.
Here is a question that has been bothering me for some time and I would like to read your opinion on it. At what point do we have to start regarding the more extreme factions of the Charedi world as not part of what we perceive to be Klal Yisrael? How much of their belief system actually resembles what we believe in? They like to portray themselves as "authentic Judaism", but especially the longer this war goes on, the more I feel alienated from those who present themselves as believing and observant Jews but do not appreciate the sacrifices being made to preserve the Jewish People in Israel. Isn't it about time we simply cut them off and say, they are no longer part of us and that they are part of another religion?
I'm actually drafting a post on that very topic.
Wow. That was quick.
Protesting against Israel, outside of Israel, is a big part of it. So said R' Soloveitchik.
The thing is we're not a religion. We're a nation. Even though reform is not judaism they're still jews.
Feel alienated does not equal 'not part of Klal Yisroel'.
Your feelings do not create reality.
Of course they do. The Jewish People is made up of those who feel that they have connected to one another. I feel no connection with those who claim to represent the Torah, something which is dear to me and to my children who have laid their lives on the line this year, and who object to shoulder the burden.
Do you feel connected to assimilated American jews?
Yes, of course. Who doesn’t have assimilated family members? Or perhaps assimilated friends, for example perhaps a formerly frum who became disillusioned…
Anyway, that’s an interesting question you ask. Very sadly, there are too many extremely assimilated Jews, believing in the ‘Tikkun Olam’ idea that was just something taken from generic “help the people of the world” programs that are out there, and were taught that is the absolutely main essence of Judaism… of course, this is the legacy of certain US American Jewish organizations…And due to this terrible simplification / misrepresentation of Judaism, this “teaching” approach has eventually now brought Jews on campus screaming with Jihadis.
And yet, and yet…For decades, I have observed many people who grew up in an exclusively orthodox bubble, modern or yeshivish or hasidish, make amazingly inaccurate statements, convinced that he or she “knows” all things about non-frum Jews.
Abraham, were you perhaps hinting an opinion that all non-frum are fools, or against Yiddishkeit? If so, you are in error (by millions). Many non-frum practice large portion of the Shulchan Aruch that too many Hareidim have heart-breakingly tossed into the trash a long time ago.
This is sheer identity theft.
Klal Yisroel is an absolute entity, created by God at Mount Sinai. Klal Yisroel consists of those who are part of the covenant with Hashem, nothing else.
If something exists in your feelings, find a name for it. Don't steal the name Klal Yisroel, Jewish people, or anything else that has been used already for thousands of years.
Rav Aron Lichtenstein would beg to differ with you about Chareidim being part of a different religion (of course, he's nowhere near the esteemed Rav Natan Slifkin in terms of Torah scholarship, the ability to articulate his Hashkafa, and his unbridled love of Israel):
https://etzion.org.il/en/philosophy/great-thinkers/harav-aharon-lichtenstein/centrist-orthodoxy-spiritual-accounting
"what we share with the Rightist community far, far outweighs whatever divides us"
I hope its a miscommunication...if its spin it is absolutely shameful....
Ask any of the charedim if they would prefer their "endangered" bochurim to swap places with the DL counterparts in the army and let the DL learn while they fight.
It's pure selfishness, simple as.
We need your clarity and fierce intelligence for public hasbara . With respect. Continually pointing out the obvious hypocrisy and shortcomings of other Jews is a holy mission, but there is a war on.
Rabbi Slifkin,
In your first sentence, you say
"After last Sunday’s planned American charedi battle against the State of Israel was defeated by the State of Newark, ..."
Please pardon my correcting you but there is no state of Newark. Newark (or Lakewood for that matter) are cities in the state of New Jersey.
This post paints an unfair and inaccurate picture. The sequence of events was that there were those trying to get together a rally for the type of event described in the advertisement shown here. They were unable to get broad support even within the Litvish chareidi community for such an event.
The event was then transformed into one davening for those in Gaza and those threatened by rocket fire, davening for an end to the recent increae in anti-semitism, and, thirdly, davening about the recent draft law. Even the wording concerning that third objective does not use any of the inflammatory language that Slifkin quotes form the advertisement.
Hi.
Which inflammatory words quoted in the post do the posters not include?
Basically, any of it. The current wording is "The atzeres will also address the impending implementation of new Israeli draft laws that threaten to force thousands of bnei torah into the military, posing an unprecedented threat to limud hatorah in Eretz Yisroel – the very lifeblood of the Jewish nation."
See my latest post.
Still, an anonymous adverstisement, signed by no one, should not be used to demonstrate anything.
It's not who writes it, it's who distributes it.
Who distributed that advertisement?
Our politicians in USA and Israel are the real problem. It is they who subsidize chareidim with other people's money. It is they who exempt chareidim from helping with the war effort.
I truly don't understand why are they doing this shouldn't they just learning Torah? I mean if learning Torah can protect from Hamas and Hezbollah missiles then learning terrorists it easily protect them from the draft?
Could be they really don't believe that Tora protect
They quote rav elchonon who days that only for spiritual matters we do our utmost השתדלות. Physical matters are less important to them (that's why they let their kids smoke).
Ladies and gents, the next Rishon L'Tzion, currently collecting a nice government salary and likely to continue doing so:
https://www.israelhayom.co.il/news/local/article/16502712
From Rav Kook's "עבד לעם קדוש" to this. He has won the lottery.
Rabbi Nathan I would really really like to understand the position of this rabannim and charedi community (im charedi I’m so confused what can they argue) to act like this…are they really think it’s kiddish hashem?
You have any insight or idea ?
I don’t understand any of this
How can they be so opposed to IDF even if they need this to learn without worries and danger
Pepe,
If you truly don't understand, why don't you ask somebody who is a little bit more open-minded, and see if they can explain it to you.
Although I am very busy, in part due to the current war, I will try to make time to correspond with you if you are sincerely seeking answers. Feel free to contact me at amcha613@gmail.com
Thanks text you later
It's Magic.
If you would really like to know their position, why don't you ask them? They are pretty accessible. If you're too nervous or embarrassed to ask the Chareidi Gedolim, you can ask a Hesder Rosh Yeshiva who seems to agree with the Chareidi Gedolim.https://vinnews.com/2024/04/01/sderot-rosh-yeshiva-they-just-want-to-topple-gvt-they-dont-want-charedim-to-enlist/
You definitely won't get an honest opinion of what their Hashkafa is from this host and commenters. How about you speak to one of the signatories and post what they told you? That would at least add some credence to the discussion.
Well, of course. Pretty much the only people who really *want* them to enlist are the dati leumi. Because we alone have the correct hashkafa.
There's an old rule that when someone presents a list, the only item they really care about is the last one.
"but presumably that was an oversight."
Ouch.
"from across the spectrum"
Inigo Montya ("You keep using that word...") comes to mind. As does Dorothy Parker's line about Katherine Hepburn, "She ran the gamut of emotions from A to B."
Also, I'm not sure if you intended this, but the state is New Jersey, not Newark. Newark is a city.
It was probably Newark that denied the permits. Its mayor, Ras Baraka, is from the far left and is running for Governor of New Jersey next year. He has been criticizing Israel since last October. :(
I looked up the site on Google maps. There would have been at most 2 square feet per attendee at the rally. There is a commuter train station a short walk from the site, but the trains only run once an hour on Sunday and each train could only safely handle a few thousand people even when packed like sardine cans. This could have been a catastrophe.
That name sounded familiar.
Ah, Baraka is the son of the "poet" who said that Israel was behind 9/11. Figures.
The rally wasn't supposed to be in Newark. White people tend not to enter Newark.
(And not just white people: There's a great scene in the movie "Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle" where they accidentally drive into Newark.)
Huh, just looked it up. The font is larger on the last point than on the others.
I was planning to go - but looks like I need to drop my son off at his unit instead.
Fortunately he was able to get time off work for this second round of Miluim, so that they won't need do draft people from Lakewood to defend the nation that they care so much about.
Donald Trump is threatening war with Iran. That would require doing something to massively increase the size of the US military, and that probably can only be done by instituting conscription, which ended in the US in 1973.
No, it wouldn't actually. The US can destroy everything it needs to in Iran using its current air force.
True, it ended in 73 because of Kissingers ideas.
Milton Friedman, I believe.
Of course, wars are probably less likely with Trump than with anyone else. Still, you gotta cut the man some slack: He just discovered that Iran is trying to kill them. Wonder why they would do that to him and not, say, to his opponent.