Wow..and the hypocrisy is probably totally lost on the writers.
Meanwhile, it seems that the DL community will be facing a Shidduch crisis (that no one is really talking about yet), because of all the DL men who have been injured and killed in the war. Many of the physically injured will of course be able to establish families, but those with brain injuries or the many with PTSD may be left unmarriageable, a further tragedy for them, and for the many women who will be left without a Shidduch (not to speak of the war widows, and the divorces resulting from the stresses of hundreds of days of miluim). These issues are of course totally invisible to the Hareidi world.
The charedi community thinks only about themselves. - What EXACTLY don't we understand about that???
Now - a community that separated from the rest of K'lal yisreel, or from the country they live in, and from the people of that country. They are only looking out for themselves. When there is a problem or crises in their community - as they only look out for themselves this crises is about them so they try to solve it. The army has nothing to do with them, the protection of the country is not important - why should they go out of their way?
Let put it another way for us to understand.....
A parasite does not think about the host! However, if the parasite gets a cut it will try to heal itself but never the host.
Actually, that's not altogether true... For example, a highly virulent virus such as Ebola does not have nearly as much reproductive success as a virus such as SARS-2 (the COVID virus), because it kills its host too quickly to infect a sufficient number of new victims.
If the Hareidi community had more foresight they would realize that their ability to think of only themselves could be their downfall...unfortunately, their behavior can take us down as well.
So it's Charedi bashing day. Because the DL are so caring about everybody. And those Charedi, uh, they are so yucky and selfish. Do I have your ridiculous portrayal correct?
To second what "Ash" wrote below: Although conceptually Slifkin's point in this piece is cogent, this isn't a matter of hypocrisy. One cannot accuse Reuven of hypocrisy if his actions are inconsistent with those of Shimon. This shidduch initiative is the work of American entities trying to solve an American problem. (R. Lando's involvement is a mere rubber-stamping. And while R. Hirsch was involved in the planning, the sense is that his involvement was cultivated by the Americans to add the luster of his authority for the project; this was not his initiative.) The American chareidi leadership has no say in the social structure in Israeli chareidi society.
Yes, of course, if they were really motivated to change things, there are financial and other courses of actions which they could adopt. But that would would only create an unbelievable mess without improving anything. You may of the mind that that is the correct course of action, but to accuse them of hypocrisy for not going setting off that bomb while making a minor modification to people's schedules (which is all this shidduch initiate is) is wrong.
That's true, manifested in part by the shortage of males.. but what does that have to do with the fact that due to the war, there will now be a shortage of an additional large number (?thousands- I really don't know) of DL males in their 20s (and 30s), relative to the number of young women looking to marry...
"...and for the many women who will be left without a Shidduch (not to speak of the war widows, and the divorces resulting from the stresses of hundreds of days of miluim)."
Starting to date at a random, arbitrary age is no guarantee of marriage. I have many friends who are still single in their 40s and some have been dating since 19, some since 20, some since 21.
All your questions are 100% correct, 1000% justified, 10000% painful.
So what? They are valid on the condition that the Zionists are Jews. But!! For the Haredim, we are not Jews.
How do they know? Because every true Haredi received through prophecy!!! A personal acknowledgment from God!! That only the Haredi sect are the true Jews. All other 'Jews,' according to some prophets, are souls of 'Erev Rav' – 100% Goyim, who were "seemingly" born as Jews, and their role is to serve the Haredi sect. According to other prophets, the Halacha states that anyone who publicly desecrates Shabbat is stripped of the title 'Jew' and is considered a complete gentile. Therefore, even a Haredi or a religious-Zionist Jew who "Mehalel" Shabbat to save such a gentile also desecrates Shabbat publicly and is deemed a complete gentile. Since all Zionists serve in the army to protect Jews who publicly desecrate Shabbat, all Zionists are complete gentiles.
The result: Any 'true Haredi' relates to all Torah commandments, good deeds, and social, economic, and security issues only for the Haredi sect = the 'true Jews' exclusively.
Rabbi Natan, don’t answer me that you were once Haredi and never 'heard' a personal divine revelation with this message. Because your end proves your beginning: Since you are now a Zionist, you possess an 'Erev Rav' soul.
Don’t tell me that after the destruction of the Temple, prophecy was given only to the insignificant and fools (B. Bava Batra). Because the Talmud continues that for the sages, it still persists. And every Haredi is a sage! The proof: He found a way to ensure that all the 'Erev Rav' serve him, through labor and military service.
The best proof of the truth of my words is the ban on your English-language books by Rabbi Elyashiv, who did not know how to read or write English. But, through prophecy!! He heard within seconds!! A Hebrew translation of the entire book!!!
The content seemed logical to him, and that’s how he also originally understood the sources you mentioned. But then the prophetic voice informed him that you are an 'Erev Rav' soul. Therefore, logic dictates that you distort the words of the Talmud, the Geonim, the Rishonim, and the Acharonim. But since you are 'Erev Rav,' your words are linguistically, literarily, and substantively logical. And that is the danger of heresy against the spirit of prophecy, which has no rationale at all!!
The spirit of prophecy is the foundation of the Haredi sect = the 'true Jews.' Therefore, they must ban all your books and articles!!! And all the books of the religious-Zionist 'rabbis,' who are no more than Goyim, 'rabbis of the Erev Rav.'
Ultimately, it's a math problem, based on at least two stubborn realities:
1. Female hypergamy - women prefer men whom they see as socially superior and good providers. In practice, this means that women prefer men who are older by a few years.
2. Population growth - as long as a population is expanding, there are more babies born each year than the previous year.
This means that, for example, there are more 18-year-old girls at any given time than the 21-year-old boys they want. You can make all kinds of social changes, but it doesn't change the fact that there are simply not enough guys to go around. Military deaths and the fact that men are a bit less interested in marriage than women just makes this worse.
First of all, that doesn't minimizing the problem as much as possible.
Secondly, for some reason this issue was not acute until the last twenty years or so. Furthermore, it is said that the problem doesn't exist in hassidic communities.
It's been a problem for a long time; I know many women who never married because they couldn't find the right man - it just wasn't covered by the media.
Over the past few decades, social media has brought attention to things the professional media ignored. In addition, changes in the secular world have made dating and marriage much more difficult, bringing more attention to the issue, and spilling over into the religious world as well.
This is the American community, who have no obligation to fight. And many of the Americans rabbanim have a largely different attitude towards the army.
Finally, the main people who are opposed to the army are opposed to the boys marrying early part of the solution (the Roshes Yeshivos) for the same reason - it puts them out of business. They don't care about the girls in their community either (if that makes you feel any better).
"many of the Americans rabbanim have a largely different attitude towards the army." Sorry but that's just not true. Try to get any one of these people to say that the charedi community needs to change and needs to join the army.
Rav Aharon Feldman, while American by upbringing, was strongly influenced in his worldview by the many decades that he spent living in chareidi Israel. He is not representative of American right-wing Orthodoxy.
I agree with the Tochen of everything you said. However, there is a serious disconnect. You are trying to Shtuch the ISRAELI HAREDIM based on what the AMERICAN YESHIVISH (I will not call Americans Haredim; it is an Israeli term/invention) rabbanim have to say.
But again, let me stress that Tochen-wise, all your arguments are good and proper.
You brought up the fact that this is an American problem. The *American* shidduch problem is something that *Israeli* gedolim aren't able to understand. As much as American charedim may like to think they're just like Israeli charedim, they are in fact not. (The same is true, mutatis mutandis, for American MO and Israeli DL.)
I absolutely agree that American Yeshivish are nothing like Israeli Hareidim. Nor do I think that the American modern orthodox are anything like the Israeli Dati Leumi.
Serious question... Why do you focus so much on the Haredim. They dont read your blog and when they do its to spam the comments section. i think you could be more effective if you used ur platform for reflections within your own world
ok maybe but your voice in the DL is a lot more meaningful than it is in the Haredi world. U could improve your own society rather than complaining about others.
Natan, you are clearly a smart person. we only live once, why should you waste it on complaining about Chareidim? (Granted its easy for me to say because my books weren't banned, but still, you have so much talent, why don't you use it in a positive constructive way? - A American Chareidi Jew
With all due respect and sensitivity to the tremendous pain and suffering associated with this topic, having been involved with the publication of the aforementioned magazine, I feel compelled to issue a few clarifications and clear up some misinformation.
The changes are not drastic, the girls are being asked to delay beginning shidduchim from Chanukah after seminary to Shavous after seminary, which is more like a 5-month delay not 18 months as stated in this article.
This is important for the following reason: when the American Roshei Yeshiva approached R. Hirsch for guidance on how to deal with the shidduch crisis in America, he gave two pieces of foundational guidance, and that is in the interest of the solution being implemented and actually helping out the issue the solution should not 1) Be the same set of solutions that have been attempted but ended in failure over the past twenty years 2) Not be a drastic change to the current system.
Many other potential changes were brought to the table and R. Hirsch dismissed them as being unpractical because they were too drastic and would engender to much opposition from the community to be implemented.
That said, the Chariedi community in both Israel and America is not perfect, but the specific hypocrisy they are accused of in this article is not true or factual.
With a Teffila and Bracha that the war comes to a quick end, that all the heroic soldiers come back safely to their families, and that those hurt in this war have a speedy recovery, and those that have lost loved ones in this terrible war are able to have the strength and courage to continue on from this enormous loss they have suffered.
Even if you don't see it, we are thinking about you, we care about you, we daven for you, and most of all, respect you for your heroic sacrifices for Klal Yisrael.
Why do you keep talking about the army? Let it go already. Army servitude would be the destruction of Charedi Jewry. It's so boring to retread this topic. And we are not surrounded by hostile Arabs. Israel does nearly all the attacking. Just stop attacking everybody. There are many other causes of the shiduch crisis, most notable being the rigidity in the standards, people seeing themselves as worthy of only the best, singles having no natural ways of meeting one another, and the Israeli government not allowing Haredi men to work. Slifkin sees the entire universe through the lense of "haredim are bad," all because of his personally bitter experience with them. So go a psychologist already and stop pretending to be an objective commentator.
Of course, they could go really nuts and abolish the shidduch system altogether. Go back to the ways men and women met and paired off in the times of Tanach and Chazal.
Forget about Tanach and Chazal. If we would only go back to the more casual interactions of men and women of marriagable age that was common in the yeshivah world of the 1960's and prior, it would be a major game changer for the shidduch crisis. People would look at potential spouses as human beings and not commodities on resume lists to be purchased.
Well, sure. But elements of the frum world will say all those people were frei. They will have a harder time (not that they won't try) with, say, Moshe Rabbenu.
It is not just about insider vs outsider. The proof is that Haredi abuse victims and Haredi agunot are not give the same consideration. There is something more forcing their hands here. Perhaps the concern that these women will marry out of the Haredi world.
I think the approach of the Charedim has to be seen in its proper perspective, which I don't believe is being presented here.
In a general sense, I believe the Charedim see themselves as the heart and soul of Klal Yisrael, being the ones who serve Hashem in the most optimal way (whether we agree with them or not). Given that view, they understandably believe that Hashem would want them to do whatever is necessary to preserve that status. Therefore, if they assume that joining the army, or even sympathising with those in the army, could threaten that status (which is not an entirely unreasonable assumption), it follows that they would believe Hashem would want them to oppose it, even if that comes at the cost of values like "nosei b'ol im chavero" and gemilut chasadim, because they see this as an "et la'asot laShem".
Although their evaluation conceivably involves being noge'a b'davar and self-serving, this may or may not be the case.
What you write regarding the Charedi approach to army service, is essentially correct. Charedi Rabbunim have said this publicly in Hebrew many times. The author of this blog knows very little about the Hebrew speaking Charedi world, he gets his information from English language publications that are themselves discussing what others said about Charedim. But anyone who actually lives in that world is well aware of this argument.
There is a lot of truth in this. They view themselves as the last bearers of the torch.
While the Dati Leumi world has a large spectrum and should not be painted with a broad brush, one cannot deny that, overall, its religious standards are lower than that of the chareidi world. As such, chareidim have the above self-conception.
Their religious standards involving a very limited, narrowly defined subset of Mitzvot that the Hareidim have chosen to prioritize. Overall Mitzva observance, I'm not so sure...
I wonder how familiar you are with dati-leumi society.
If indeed voter fraud occurred it would reflect on a handful of people running that organization.
Consider that there is (to my knowledge, correct me if I need to be updated) a phenomenon of DL youth who grow in their frumkeit to the point that they feel the need to shift to the chareidi world; a parallel migration route does not exist save the rare instance. Why is that?
The parallel route absolutely exists. But it happens later in life - in people's 40s, usually. I've seen it many times. That's actually a good topic for a post (about why the moves in different directions happen at different stages of life).
Both our camp and their camp have lots of issues. The significant question to my mind is not who is better, because that depends on what metrics you use. The question is whether their option is a legitimate option at all.
Now, if the Chareidim were to say, "Look, we really appreciate the way the state supports our lifestyle, and it's not ideal that we put our financial and other burdens on others. But what can we do? We're stuck in this situation and it's an 'et la'asot laShem' to ensure that Torah remains strong", then just maybe there's something to talk about it.
Given that that's not the messaging coming from them at all, pursuing such an approach is completely illegitimate. The Dati Leumi option, even with all its issues, becomes the only legitimate option.
It depends who you ask, of course. Although, I have to say that I was once surprised by a MO Rosh Yeshiva who said to me years ago that he felt we were miles behind the Charedim in almost all aspects of avodat Hashem. I imagine he would likely significantly revise that view given the current situation, although I’m not sure to what extent.
I also think the existence of the Charedim significantly strengthens Torah everywhere, even in the Dati Leumi world, because of the Kin’at Sofrim it generates (even though other behaviours of theirs potentially weaken it).
Regarding the secondary issue, the problem of prolonged singlehood exists among the Hardalim (national-religious ultra-Orthodox). It is far less prevalent among the mainstream national-religious. The reason may be the complete separation between boys and girls from kindergarten age. The consequences manifest in several ways:
(a) A woman thinks and feels differently from a man. However, since they have had no exposure to members of the opposite sex before their first Shiduh meeting, both sides treat each other as if they think and feel the same way. Then, when it turns out this isn’t the case, both become convinced they were "deceived." After this happens several times, trust is lost, along with the emotional desire and capacity to continue enduring disappointments.
(b) In mixed-gender society, eventually, every young man and woman "accidentally" encounter the person of their dreams and try to interest the other side. The result is that the "market" is thousands of times larger than the Shiduh market.
(Note: "Hardalim" is a term referring to a subgroup that blends national-religious ideology with stricter ultra-Orthodox practices. The translation preserves the original cultural context while making it accessible to an English-speaking audience.)
Well stated! As an aside, when exposed to the ‘outside world’ of work, they also discover just how bigoted and wrong were most of their melamdim. Same applies to Haredim exposed to army service.
As their Weltanschauung is strict obeisance to mesoira, their educational methods will need an ‘extreme makeover’…..
The Haredi world is not "mesoira". It's all new. All the Humrot and all the Kulot on mitsvot lo Taaseh and all the Bitul Mitsvot Aseh. The true "mesoira" is that of rabbi Natan and haredim who follow Torah and Dereh Erets, all the bahurei Yeshivah of Dati Leumi and Har Hamor.
Wow..and the hypocrisy is probably totally lost on the writers.
Meanwhile, it seems that the DL community will be facing a Shidduch crisis (that no one is really talking about yet), because of all the DL men who have been injured and killed in the war. Many of the physically injured will of course be able to establish families, but those with brain injuries or the many with PTSD may be left unmarriageable, a further tragedy for them, and for the many women who will be left without a Shidduch (not to speak of the war widows, and the divorces resulting from the stresses of hundreds of days of miluim). These issues are of course totally invisible to the Hareidi world.
This article is a bit off the mark.
The charedi community thinks only about themselves. - What EXACTLY don't we understand about that???
Now - a community that separated from the rest of K'lal yisreel, or from the country they live in, and from the people of that country. They are only looking out for themselves. When there is a problem or crises in their community - as they only look out for themselves this crises is about them so they try to solve it. The army has nothing to do with them, the protection of the country is not important - why should they go out of their way?
Let put it another way for us to understand.....
A parasite does not think about the host! However, if the parasite gets a cut it will try to heal itself but never the host.
Actually, that's not altogether true... For example, a highly virulent virus such as Ebola does not have nearly as much reproductive success as a virus such as SARS-2 (the COVID virus), because it kills its host too quickly to infect a sufficient number of new victims.
If the Hareidi community had more foresight they would realize that their ability to think of only themselves could be their downfall...unfortunately, their behavior can take us down as well.
So it's Charedi bashing day. Because the DL are so caring about everybody. And those Charedi, uh, they are so yucky and selfish. Do I have your ridiculous portrayal correct?
Nice strawman.
To second what "Ash" wrote below: Although conceptually Slifkin's point in this piece is cogent, this isn't a matter of hypocrisy. One cannot accuse Reuven of hypocrisy if his actions are inconsistent with those of Shimon. This shidduch initiative is the work of American entities trying to solve an American problem. (R. Lando's involvement is a mere rubber-stamping. And while R. Hirsch was involved in the planning, the sense is that his involvement was cultivated by the Americans to add the luster of his authority for the project; this was not his initiative.) The American chareidi leadership has no say in the social structure in Israeli chareidi society.
Yes, of course, if they were really motivated to change things, there are financial and other courses of actions which they could adopt. But that would would only create an unbelievable mess without improving anything. You may of the mind that that is the correct course of action, but to accuse them of hypocrisy for not going setting off that bomb while making a minor modification to people's schedules (which is all this shidduch initiate is) is wrong.
The DL community also has a shidduch crisis and has doneso for years. Nothing to do with the war. They just call it a 'singles crisis'.
That's true, manifested in part by the shortage of males.. but what does that have to do with the fact that due to the war, there will now be a shortage of an additional large number (?thousands- I really don't know) of DL males in their 20s (and 30s), relative to the number of young women looking to marry...
We can always repeal a specific חרם דרבינו גרשום.
How would that help? About the same number of men and women are born each year.
I was referring to the סיפא of Chana's comment:
"...and for the many women who will be left without a Shidduch (not to speak of the war widows, and the divorces resulting from the stresses of hundreds of days of miluim)."
Oh, that part. Yeah.
As it happens, slightly more men are born than women, to allow for war, accidents, and acting crazy, all things that affect men more than women.
Starting to date at a random, arbitrary age is no guarantee of marriage. I have many friends who are still single in their 40s and some have been dating since 19, some since 20, some since 21.
All your questions are 100% correct, 1000% justified, 10000% painful.
So what? They are valid on the condition that the Zionists are Jews. But!! For the Haredim, we are not Jews.
How do they know? Because every true Haredi received through prophecy!!! A personal acknowledgment from God!! That only the Haredi sect are the true Jews. All other 'Jews,' according to some prophets, are souls of 'Erev Rav' – 100% Goyim, who were "seemingly" born as Jews, and their role is to serve the Haredi sect. According to other prophets, the Halacha states that anyone who publicly desecrates Shabbat is stripped of the title 'Jew' and is considered a complete gentile. Therefore, even a Haredi or a religious-Zionist Jew who "Mehalel" Shabbat to save such a gentile also desecrates Shabbat publicly and is deemed a complete gentile. Since all Zionists serve in the army to protect Jews who publicly desecrate Shabbat, all Zionists are complete gentiles.
The result: Any 'true Haredi' relates to all Torah commandments, good deeds, and social, economic, and security issues only for the Haredi sect = the 'true Jews' exclusively.
Rabbi Natan, don’t answer me that you were once Haredi and never 'heard' a personal divine revelation with this message. Because your end proves your beginning: Since you are now a Zionist, you possess an 'Erev Rav' soul.
Don’t tell me that after the destruction of the Temple, prophecy was given only to the insignificant and fools (B. Bava Batra). Because the Talmud continues that for the sages, it still persists. And every Haredi is a sage! The proof: He found a way to ensure that all the 'Erev Rav' serve him, through labor and military service.
The best proof of the truth of my words is the ban on your English-language books by Rabbi Elyashiv, who did not know how to read or write English. But, through prophecy!! He heard within seconds!! A Hebrew translation of the entire book!!!
The content seemed logical to him, and that’s how he also originally understood the sources you mentioned. But then the prophetic voice informed him that you are an 'Erev Rav' soul. Therefore, logic dictates that you distort the words of the Talmud, the Geonim, the Rishonim, and the Acharonim. But since you are 'Erev Rav,' your words are linguistically, literarily, and substantively logical. And that is the danger of heresy against the spirit of prophecy, which has no rationale at all!!
The spirit of prophecy is the foundation of the Haredi sect = the 'true Jews.' Therefore, they must ban all your books and articles!!! And all the books of the religious-Zionist 'rabbis,' who are no more than Goyim, 'rabbis of the Erev Rav.'
Ultimately, it's a math problem, based on at least two stubborn realities:
1. Female hypergamy - women prefer men whom they see as socially superior and good providers. In practice, this means that women prefer men who are older by a few years.
2. Population growth - as long as a population is expanding, there are more babies born each year than the previous year.
This means that, for example, there are more 18-year-old girls at any given time than the 21-year-old boys they want. You can make all kinds of social changes, but it doesn't change the fact that there are simply not enough guys to go around. Military deaths and the fact that men are a bit less interested in marriage than women just makes this worse.
And the men look for younger women for fertility reasons. (Not really correct ones, but they think so.)
Also, a big problem is reflected in your use of "girls" and "boys."
First of all, that doesn't minimizing the problem as much as possible.
Secondly, for some reason this issue was not acute until the last twenty years or so. Furthermore, it is said that the problem doesn't exist in hassidic communities.
Because the shidduch system was designed for chassidim, who are raised not to ask questions. It doesn't work for yeshivish, kal v'chomer not for MO.
It's been a problem for a long time; I know many women who never married because they couldn't find the right man - it just wasn't covered by the media.
Over the past few decades, social media has brought attention to things the professional media ignored. In addition, changes in the secular world have made dating and marriage much more difficult, bringing more attention to the issue, and spilling over into the religious world as well.
This is the American community, who have no obligation to fight. And many of the Americans rabbanim have a largely different attitude towards the army.
Finally, the main people who are opposed to the army are opposed to the boys marrying early part of the solution (the Roshes Yeshivos) for the same reason - it puts them out of business. They don't care about the girls in their community either (if that makes you feel any better).
"many of the Americans rabbanim have a largely different attitude towards the army." Sorry but that's just not true. Try to get any one of these people to say that the charedi community needs to change and needs to join the army.
Most poskim who deal with this say the halakhic obligation to serve is universal. But leave that aside:
Again with the "girls" and "boys." "Girls" and "boys" shouldn't be marrying each other at all.
As American as Rabbi Aharon Feldman?
Rav Aharon Feldman, while American by upbringing, was strongly influenced in his worldview by the many decades that he spent living in chareidi Israel. He is not representative of American right-wing Orthodoxy.
Think about why what you just said, along with what Rabbi Feldman has been preaching to American Yeshiva Jewry, only makes it worse.
I agree with the Tochen of everything you said. However, there is a serious disconnect. You are trying to Shtuch the ISRAELI HAREDIM based on what the AMERICAN YESHIVISH (I will not call Americans Haredim; it is an Israeli term/invention) rabbanim have to say.
But again, let me stress that Tochen-wise, all your arguments are good and proper.
But the rabbis cited include Israelis.
That doesn't matter. They are addressing an American problem.
Some rabbis, believe it or not, have the humility not to comment on areas outside of their bailiwick.
I addressed that above.
They could have said, "Sorry, I'm not familiar with this."
Not following. How is the shidduch crisis something outside their bailiwick or unfamiliar to them?
You brought up the fact that this is an American problem. The *American* shidduch problem is something that *Israeli* gedolim aren't able to understand. As much as American charedim may like to think they're just like Israeli charedim, they are in fact not. (The same is true, mutatis mutandis, for American MO and Israeli DL.)
I absolutely agree that American Yeshivish are nothing like Israeli Hareidim. Nor do I think that the American modern orthodox are anything like the Israeli Dati Leumi.
https://open.substack.com/pub/daastorah/p/chareidim-finally-care-about-themselves?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=33pit
Serious question... Why do you focus so much on the Haredim. They dont read your blog and when they do its to spam the comments section. i think you could be more effective if you used ur platform for reflections within your own world
Plenty of charedim do read my blog. In addition, non-charedim also have the capacity to cause change in various ways.
ok maybe but your voice in the DL is a lot more meaningful than it is in the Haredi world. U could improve your own society rather than complaining about others.
Charedi society harms everyone else in Israel and is an existential threat.
Natan, you are clearly a smart person. we only live once, why should you waste it on complaining about Chareidim? (Granted its easy for me to say because my books weren't banned, but still, you have so much talent, why don't you use it in a positive constructive way? - A American Chareidi Jew
Charedi society harms everyone else in Israel and is an existential threat.
I hear you, just not so sure that this blog does much to reduce that harm or protect from that existential threat.
I think someone with your kochos (like us yeshvish say) can accomplish much more in other ways.
Maybe you can still spend some time criticizing Chareidim, but this seems a bit much tbh.
With all due respect and sensitivity to the tremendous pain and suffering associated with this topic, having been involved with the publication of the aforementioned magazine, I feel compelled to issue a few clarifications and clear up some misinformation.
The changes are not drastic, the girls are being asked to delay beginning shidduchim from Chanukah after seminary to Shavous after seminary, which is more like a 5-month delay not 18 months as stated in this article.
This is important for the following reason: when the American Roshei Yeshiva approached R. Hirsch for guidance on how to deal with the shidduch crisis in America, he gave two pieces of foundational guidance, and that is in the interest of the solution being implemented and actually helping out the issue the solution should not 1) Be the same set of solutions that have been attempted but ended in failure over the past twenty years 2) Not be a drastic change to the current system.
Many other potential changes were brought to the table and R. Hirsch dismissed them as being unpractical because they were too drastic and would engender to much opposition from the community to be implemented.
That said, the Chariedi community in both Israel and America is not perfect, but the specific hypocrisy they are accused of in this article is not true or factual.
With a Teffila and Bracha that the war comes to a quick end, that all the heroic soldiers come back safely to their families, and that those hurt in this war have a speedy recovery, and those that have lost loved ones in this terrible war are able to have the strength and courage to continue on from this enormous loss they have suffered.
Even if you don't see it, we are thinking about you, we care about you, we daven for you, and most of all, respect you for your heroic sacrifices for Klal Yisrael.
An American Yid
Why do you keep talking about the army? Let it go already. Army servitude would be the destruction of Charedi Jewry. It's so boring to retread this topic. And we are not surrounded by hostile Arabs. Israel does nearly all the attacking. Just stop attacking everybody. There are many other causes of the shiduch crisis, most notable being the rigidity in the standards, people seeing themselves as worthy of only the best, singles having no natural ways of meeting one another, and the Israeli government not allowing Haredi men to work. Slifkin sees the entire universe through the lense of "haredim are bad," all because of his personally bitter experience with them. So go a psychologist already and stop pretending to be an objective commentator.
The government doesn't keep charedim from working.
So much hate in these comments:(
Of course, they could go really nuts and abolish the shidduch system altogether. Go back to the ways men and women met and paired off in the times of Tanach and Chazal.
No, no! Heresy!
Forget about Tanach and Chazal. If we would only go back to the more casual interactions of men and women of marriagable age that was common in the yeshivah world of the 1960's and prior, it would be a major game changer for the shidduch crisis. People would look at potential spouses as human beings and not commodities on resume lists to be purchased.
Well, sure. But elements of the frum world will say all those people were frei. They will have a harder time (not that they won't try) with, say, Moshe Rabbenu.
It is not just about insider vs outsider. The proof is that Haredi abuse victims and Haredi agunot are not give the same consideration. There is something more forcing their hands here. Perhaps the concern that these women will marry out of the Haredi world.
You beat me to it. And it's not like that world really worries about single women all that much, unless it's their own daughter.
They place a great amount of importance on fertility. That's why they're so insistent on the women being young even if the men are older.
I think the approach of the Charedim has to be seen in its proper perspective, which I don't believe is being presented here.
In a general sense, I believe the Charedim see themselves as the heart and soul of Klal Yisrael, being the ones who serve Hashem in the most optimal way (whether we agree with them or not). Given that view, they understandably believe that Hashem would want them to do whatever is necessary to preserve that status. Therefore, if they assume that joining the army, or even sympathising with those in the army, could threaten that status (which is not an entirely unreasonable assumption), it follows that they would believe Hashem would want them to oppose it, even if that comes at the cost of values like "nosei b'ol im chavero" and gemilut chasadim, because they see this as an "et la'asot laShem".
Although their evaluation conceivably involves being noge'a b'davar and self-serving, this may or may not be the case.
I don't know. I think you're generally correct, but I think that most charedim just don't think of the rest of the Jewish people that much.
Danny,
What you write regarding the Charedi approach to army service, is essentially correct. Charedi Rabbunim have said this publicly in Hebrew many times. The author of this blog knows very little about the Hebrew speaking Charedi world, he gets his information from English language publications that are themselves discussing what others said about Charedim. But anyone who actually lives in that world is well aware of this argument.
There is a lot of truth in this. They view themselves as the last bearers of the torch.
While the Dati Leumi world has a large spectrum and should not be painted with a broad brush, one cannot deny that, overall, its religious standards are lower than that of the chareidi world. As such, chareidim have the above self-conception.
Their religious standards involving a very limited, narrowly defined subset of Mitzvot that the Hareidim have chosen to prioritize. Overall Mitzva observance, I'm not so sure...
Overall mitzvah importance, of d'Oraisas including bein Adam lechavero, I'm absolutely sure. Datiim beat charedim hands-down.
Did you see which slate was accused of voter fraud in the World Zionist Congress elections? Hint: It wasn't Mizrachi
I wonder how familiar you are with dati-leumi society.
If indeed voter fraud occurred it would reflect on a handful of people running that organization.
Consider that there is (to my knowledge, correct me if I need to be updated) a phenomenon of DL youth who grow in their frumkeit to the point that they feel the need to shift to the chareidi world; a parallel migration route does not exist save the rare instance. Why is that?
The parallel route absolutely exists. But it happens later in life - in people's 40s, usually. I've seen it many times. That's actually a good topic for a post (about why the moves in different directions happen at different stages of life).
Sure it exists. In big numbers. Although it usually involves dropping religion altogether.
And yeah, you need to be updated. DL youth who "grow in their frumkeit" generally become, well, frummer DL. Very, very few become charedi.
Huh?
It's the Hareidi slate that was accused of voter fraud *not* Mizrachi.
Both our camp and their camp have lots of issues. The significant question to my mind is not who is better, because that depends on what metrics you use. The question is whether their option is a legitimate option at all.
Now, if the Chareidim were to say, "Look, we really appreciate the way the state supports our lifestyle, and it's not ideal that we put our financial and other burdens on others. But what can we do? We're stuck in this situation and it's an 'et la'asot laShem' to ensure that Torah remains strong", then just maybe there's something to talk about it.
Given that that's not the messaging coming from them at all, pursuing such an approach is completely illegitimate. The Dati Leumi option, even with all its issues, becomes the only legitimate option.
Except that of course "Torah remains strong" even among non-charedim.
It depends who you ask, of course. Although, I have to say that I was once surprised by a MO Rosh Yeshiva who said to me years ago that he felt we were miles behind the Charedim in almost all aspects of avodat Hashem. I imagine he would likely significantly revise that view given the current situation, although I’m not sure to what extent.
I also think the existence of the Charedim significantly strengthens Torah everywhere, even in the Dati Leumi world, because of the Kin’at Sofrim it generates (even though other behaviours of theirs potentially weaken it).
Well said! Send this to the Ami!
Regarding the secondary issue, the problem of prolonged singlehood exists among the Hardalim (national-religious ultra-Orthodox). It is far less prevalent among the mainstream national-religious. The reason may be the complete separation between boys and girls from kindergarten age. The consequences manifest in several ways:
(a) A woman thinks and feels differently from a man. However, since they have had no exposure to members of the opposite sex before their first Shiduh meeting, both sides treat each other as if they think and feel the same way. Then, when it turns out this isn’t the case, both become convinced they were "deceived." After this happens several times, trust is lost, along with the emotional desire and capacity to continue enduring disappointments.
(b) In mixed-gender society, eventually, every young man and woman "accidentally" encounter the person of their dreams and try to interest the other side. The result is that the "market" is thousands of times larger than the Shiduh market.
(Note: "Hardalim" is a term referring to a subgroup that blends national-religious ideology with stricter ultra-Orthodox practices. The translation preserves the original cultural context while making it accessible to an English-speaking audience.)
Well stated! As an aside, when exposed to the ‘outside world’ of work, they also discover just how bigoted and wrong were most of their melamdim. Same applies to Haredim exposed to army service.
As their Weltanschauung is strict obeisance to mesoira, their educational methods will need an ‘extreme makeover’…..
The Haredi world is not "mesoira". It's all new. All the Humrot and all the Kulot on mitsvot lo Taaseh and all the Bitul Mitsvot Aseh. The true "mesoira" is that of rabbi Natan and haredim who follow Torah and Dereh Erets, all the bahurei Yeshivah of Dati Leumi and Har Hamor.
The likely historical start of that was חתם םופר in 18th century