I notice the rudeness of the ultra-orthodox businessmen and the "rabbis" they crowned. Because they state that the only reason there is a prosperous "Orthodox world" in Israel is because of the grace of heaven; Not because of political protection and treating everyone who is not ultra-Orthodox as a woodcutter and their water pumper "Through Hashem's grace upon his nation of Yisrael, the world of Torah has grown and multiplied in the Eretz Hakedosha",
Yes, it is the grace of Heaven. I know that's not something you rationalists believe in. But yes...Grace of Heaven. We must be thankful to Hashem for all the blessings he has showered us with.
When I studied in yeshiva 50 and more years ago, then if it turned out that a student did not recognize a favor for the person who did it to him, he would be thrown out of the yeshiva. That is why we must say: Thank you to someone, with God's help you were able to help me.
When I was in the camps in Solovetsky 80 years ago, if you put your scarf down and averted your eyes for a few seconds, it would be gone by the time you looked back. We used to have to sleep with our boots on for fear that somebody would swipe them to sell for smoke or morsel of bread.
1. You start off by making a comparison to smartphones, saying that just because something is common or useful doesn't make it necessary. The proper conclusion would be that although drafting yeshiva students would be useful to the IDF, it's certainly not essential.
2. According to standard Torah perspective, the Agudah is correct that it is in the merit of the Torah students that the nation survives. You argue that historical numbers of Torah students demonstrate that the sheer numbers today are not essential, but this misses the point, that the government has declared a war against the Torah. If an enemy declares its intentions to destroy your organization that you have painstakingly built up over many decades, there is no comfort in the fact that your organization was much smaller 60 years ago.
3. For argument's sake, suppose the anonymously written poster from 1948 with no rabbinic signatures is real. I can believe it is real, given the emergency in 1948. However, in no way can that emergency be compared to the situation today, and therefore the situations are incomparable.
4. You write "sages" with quotation marks. Show some respect since they are real sages.
5. You complain about "hatefulness" of describing those seeking to equalize the burden of military service as “persecutors of religion.” But there is nothing hateful about this statement, they are persecutors of religion. Furthermore, it is ironic and obtuse for somebody seen as a merchant of hate to complain about hatefulness.
6. There is nothing obtuse about using the word "war" figuratively when there is an actual war going on. The fact that there is an actual war going on does not automatically create new and senseless language regulations. The same goes for "mesiras nefesh", which is commonly used for those who sacrifice their material comfort for higher spiritual achievements, and not just for people who have actually died.
7. Your speculation about the psychology of the anonymous authors of the poster you found is not grounded in reality.
8. Finally, portraying this as a "reform of Agudah" based on one poster you found does not demonstrate an interest in the truth. There is a great deal of historical context to Agudah's opposition to ZIonism and eventual grudging, partial reconciliation to the State, but you sum up the entire thing in some anonymous poster you found from 1948 which happens to be consistent with your own views.
Does the merit of the students require government funding? I think the first step would be that these yeshiva should acknowledge that the government has no obligation to fund their activities. If G-d wants them learning, he should see to it that they are funded and not rely on the state which needs to support the war. It would add a lot to their statements of belief if they would waive government funding. The fact is they want to be a drain on society to better control their members. It's not about Torah learning, it's a fear of them learning that not everything these rabbis say is the truth about the world. Just as any high demand group needs to control information.
They certainly don't rely on "government funding" - i.e. the pittance they are begrudgingly allocated by the government which is a tiny fraction of the millions pumped into chiloni institutions - if they did, they would have closed down years ago.
The major part of their support comes from other chareidi - and dati - Jews, who are delighted to have the privilege of supporting them.
The money that the charedi parties completely justifiably demand from the government (whose constituents pay just as much taxes as the chilonim - perhaps you never learned civics, but taxes are imposed according to income, not religious affiliation) is to give the State of Israel some part of the zchut of supporting Torah - for its own immense benefit.
“According to the Knesset's Research and Information Center, in the year when the annual theater budget by itself was NIS 94.9 million, the budget for all Torah culture institutions in the country was NIS 8.3 million.
In addition:
The cinema - 79.5 million.
Music, orchestras, opera, Hebrew songs - 64.9 million
This is dishonest nonsense (and I wouldn't expect anything else from the propagandists at Hidabroot). That number is only one particular budget - "Torah culture" - out of literally BILLIONS of shekels that are allocated to charedi schools overall, but which do are not assigned under the heading of "culture."
No, it doesn't require government funding. I don't believe the yeshiva has an obligation to announce whatever you want them to announce. I agree that it would be better if they weren't funded by the government, and from the looks of it, this is what will be happening in the near future. The rest of your comment are your own unfounded and false opinions.
I never thought I'd be discussing this with an atheist military officer but of course, they have no obligation to say what I want. I'm just pointing out that the argument that this is all about Torah learning is weakened when they also cry about needing to be funded. I know they aren't rational or logical but that's the truth.
As far as the rest of my statement it's based on extensive study of high-demand religions and cults and you can see the research of people like Robert Jay Lifton, Steven Hassan, and Margaret Singer among others on the use of information control and isolation as part of authoritarian groups.
The fact is that the Rabbis are scared of what these people will learn when exposed to ny world outside of the yeshiva. Why not let these students exercise their free will that they can choose the yeshiva or the Army instead of trying to decree something with no Torah basis. There are plenty in the Torah world of Hesder Yeshivot learning and serving, these people can do the same.
I don't see any indication that this letter is about crying about needing to be funded. It is about an impending attempt to draft yeshiva students.
Despite the fact that your opinion about yeshivos is based on your understanding of extensive study of high-demand religions and cults by people like Robert Jay Lifton, Steven Hassan, and Margaret Singer, it is nevertheless unfounded and false.
You know why even old fashioned SMS texting is banned amongst strict groups in Israel? One reason and one reason only. It can be used for mass dissemation of information, something the leadership fears.
If you have an alternative explanation do provide it, please.
If you hide behind the image of a dead person and think that these fools at the Agudah are sages, it clearly isn't worth pursuing this further. Also, my knowledge of yeshiva comes from being in it and seeing the dangers of the Orthodox world and how the Charedi community checks 80% of the boxes on every list of cult characteristics.
You've provided no evidence to show that I'm wrong but it's clear you're someone who believes things based on being told by some rabbi.
If you are not interested in discussion, but just in proclaiming your baseless opinions without any feedback, that's fine. Just don't pretend it's anything more than that.
About yeshivos, since you have provided no evidence to show that you are right, there is no expectation for me to provide evidence to show that you are wrong.
Those students don't have religious objections to serving, so they are not being religiously persecuted. Perhaps you are talking about people who have sincere secular objections to serving, and are yet pressed into service against their will. In those rare cases, I would tend to think they are being persecuted.
" suppose the anonymously written poster from 1948 with no rabbinic signatures is real. I can believe it is real, given the emergency in 1948."
What emergency was that? Since when does a so called "emergency" allow from the abrogation of the Torah? Remember, that Charedi protesters have declared the draft as יהרג ועל יעבור. Plus, you have no authority to speculate on חילוקים on דעת תורה. There's no indication that this קול קורא was meant as a הוראת שעה.
But there's something else wrong with your comment. Your glib reference to "emergency" indicates you're blissfully unaware of our current crisis. Like so many of commenters here, you downplay the emergency we're in now.
Some protesters have called the draft יהרג ועל יעבור, but if there was a real emergency, and the draft would be of the nature of the one in 1948, perhaps those protesters wouldn't call it יהרג ועל יעבור.
I do not need authority to speculate on חילוקים on דעת תורה, I can do it without authority. The current Daas Torah is what it is, and I can speculate all I want as to its relationship with an unsigned poster from 1948.
Furthermore, there is nothing in the poster to indicate it is Daas Torah, and even if it was, there is nothing to indicate that it is anything other than הוראת שעה.
You have brought no evidence that the current situation is a crisis that is anything of the nature of 1948. I think that is your own speculation.
Or it could be that they are liars. And there's no הלכה of יהרג ועל יעבור when in comes to the draft.
"but if there was a real emergency"
There you go again, downplaying the crisis.
" I can do it without authority."
So you don't hold of דעת תורה.
" current Daas Torah"
Implying that it goes against earlier דעת תורה.
"there is nothing in the poster to indicate it is Daas Torah"
Here's how Kikar described it "קריאת מועצת גדולי התורה של "אגודת ישראל" לגיוס חרדים ערב הקמת המדינה". You may have the חוצפה, but you have no authority to declare the pronouncements of the מועצת גדולי התורה as being not דעת תורה.
Or it could be that they are not liars, and you are a liar.
You haven't brought evidence that the crisis is the same as 1948 or even comparable. For all appearances, it is not. Therefore, any attempt to compare it to 1948 is in vain.
I hold of Daas Torah, and yet am able to give my opinion on the differences between 1948 and 2024. It appears that you believe holding of Daas Torah equates to not being able to have any opinion on any Torah matter, but this is not the case. This shouldn't be difficult to understand.
There is no implication that current Daas Torah is "against" previous Daas Torah. The poster doesn't say it is the מועצת גדולי התורה. The Kikar website is itself not representative of Daas Torah.
All appearance? All? You've looked at ALL appearances? No you haven't. And why depend on appearances instead of reality?
You have downplayed the crisis.
"I hold of Daas Torah, and yet am able to give my opinion"
But it's still just your opinion. Why should your opinion be an adequate, authentic and legitimate expression of דעת תורה?
"There is no implication that current Daas Torah is "against" previous Daas Torah. "
Previous דעת תורה: Charedim should serve. (And they did)
Present דעת תורה: Charedim shouldn't serve
" The Kikar website is itself not representative of Daas Torah."
There you go again. You first deny the authenticity of the poster, implying some conspiracy. That's simply paranoia. Then when a bona-fide charedi source confirms it, you provide a fallacious חילוק that Kikar is not representative of דעת תורה. But it doesn't have to be. Confirming facts of דעת תורה positions is not necessarily דעת תורה.
It seems you are unfamiliar with the phrase "all appearances", which means "judging from what can be seen". Somebody would have to be delusional to think that the current situation looks like the situation in 1948.
"But it's still just your opinion. Why should your opinion be an adequate, authentic and legitimate expression of דעת תורה?"
I am allowed to give my opinion on Daas Torah. That's what comments are for.
"Previous דעת תורה: Charedim should serve. (And they did) Present דעת תורה: Charedim shouldn't serve"
It is only a contradiction assuming that the situations are comparable. From all appearances, they are not.
"There you go again. You first deny the authenticity of the poster, implying some conspiracy. That's simply paranoia..."
No. There is no need for a conspiracy. There is no evidence that this poster or the Kikar website represents Daas Torah. It is possible it represents Daas Torah, but the fact that the poster has no signatures and doesn't quote the Moetzes doesn't help your case.
Can you please define exactly who qualifies as Daas Torah? I mean I always held Rav Aharon Lichtenstein in high respect as a Torah scholar and he believed you can serve in the Army and learn Torah. You keep using this vague term of "Daas Torah" which seems to mean, "rabbis I agree with."
"Since when does a so called "emergency" allow from the abrogation of the Torah?"
It had been universally accepted that all Jewish men were supposed to work for a living and to support their families, until the "emergency" of the loss of students after the Holocaust was construed to allow full time Torah study for life for everyone.
>"in the absence of a new situation, it’s logically impossible to claim that something new is essential."
While sympathetic to the broader argument, I don't think that this is the "gotcha" that you think it is. Something new can be a significant improvement on how things were in the past, and therefore indeed essential. For example, we now have the Iron dome defense system. This system didn't exist in the past, but is clearly now essential, since it's a significant improvement upon what we had before
Just to add: Obviously, in the narrowest sense of the word "essential", meaning "needed to survive", almost nothing is essential besides for basic food, water, shelter, and clothing. Essentially, how hunter-gatherers lived
In that particular example, it's been argued that it was Iron Dome that made us too "used" to missiles- hey, no one was dying, so what's the big deal? What we had before was crushing the enemy, see him driven before us, hear the lamentation of his women. That works.
"In the absence of a new situation, it’s logically impossible to claim that something new is essential."
Such as the state of Israel?
"I presume that the answer is as follows. The earlier rabbinic leaders, fresh from the horrors of the Holocaust, often personally connected to people who had fallen in Israel’s battles, were much more aware of the harsh realities of national survival and the importance of mutual responsibility."
"In 1948, Agudas Yisrael itself called on every charedi man between the age of 17 and 25 to join the army!"
Aside from being unsigned, the poster is a call to arms in defense of a local yishuv i.e yerushalayim. And the conditions attached are that it would be under charedi auspices. And girls should stay home. At most it's the equivalent of one of Ben Gvir's mini-militias.
"And yet they simultaneously claim that safety of the entire nation is entirely dependent on every one of all these tens of thousands being in yeshiva!"
Your johnny-come-lately skepticism is no evidence of the poster being a forgery. For 75 years, no questioned it till you came along. We all know Charedim served in significant numbers in '48 and '67. We know R' Chaim Kanievsky served. There is no reason to question the poster's authenticity.
"Your johnny-come-lately skepticism is no evidence of the poster being a forgery. For 75 years, no questioned it till you came along."
I'm not claiming it's a forgery. I said it's unsigned. Which it plainly is.
"And does that make a difference?"
At this point? Maybe not. But part of how we got here is most definitely due to that. One of the founders of nachal charedi literally quit due to not wanting to be part of a 'culture war.' https://www.bhol.co.il/news/138619
Dr Slifkin is claiming a contradiction between the current agudah and the one at the founding. That's ludicrous on many levels, one of which is that the purported contradiction is between american rabbonim with names, and some nameless 'vaad ha'poel.' It's like those pashkevillim which declare things in the name of 'yehudim koavim.'
Kids tell their parents they "need". The parents' job is to say "no". Parents who are already living out of the "ghetto" walls, need to be fearless and reject the materialist (and anti-Torah) nonsense in the wider secular world.
One the major benefits of raising kids non-Charedi is that they won't tell you they won't marry unless you buy them an apartment.
Totally disagree with you. Languages are not merely there and neutral to cultural content. The disappearing or moribund Yiddish is a loss to Yiddishkeit and Torah. Today the dominance of English in the West does not add to Torah, of itself- it involves a great deal of value assimilation. Most English speakers are unable to access sources at the level of Hebrew speakers. The Torah study doesn't just persist in a vacuum- Loss is loss and cannot be replaced in other frameworks, culturally and language-wise. Thus whatever can be preserved of our parents generation's Judaism is meaningful, more so than one translated to values imbedded in languages less imbued with Jewish people and culture. Thus the loss of Yiddish is to be mourned and it's preservation encouraged. A Judaism based upon American Jewish culture and language is different- language is more important than you acknowledge. Both Hebrew and Aramaic of our source texts were grounded in a real national Jewish culture of the past and therefore resonate. The predominant languages of diaspora Jews- English- is not a 'national' language of our people, thus it cannot reflect Jewish culture or learning in a full sense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel: "Leading active athletes might in many cases be granted an "Outstanding athlete" status which allows them to get a more convenient and shorter service, so they can continue to develop their career and represent Israel abroad in international competitions. The "Outstanding athlete" status is given only to athletes competing in Olympic sports. In addition, the military also grants the similar "Outstanding dancer" status and an "Outstanding musician" status. This status is granted in the same way and after the individuals have been examined. They may also be granted a more convenient service so that they can continue to improve their abilities and career during military service." Whatever percentage of athletes, musicians and dancers receive these exemptions should also apply to "Outstanding Torah scholars." Only the very best.
And who are you to ask? What is it you wish to say ..that this pigeon Yiddish approach is respectful to our rich cultural heritage that was..that that is all that remains..?
I've long lost any respect for the Agudah (if I ever had any) as they've pretty much aligned with the Christian fascist movement. For a bunch of grown men to put out such a whiny temper tantrum in connection with a country they don't even live in. That statement is just over the top ridiculous and delusional.
> "And our wondrous G-d will not reject the prayers of the masses, and may we merit to see the honor of the Torah be uplifted and the salvation of Hashem of His nation and His portion and the redemption of the entire world, with the coming of the Righteous Redeemer, speedily in our days, Amen."
As they declare that the prayers will not be rejected, it seems to me that if this does go through it clearly is what G-d wants. Really something to speak on behalf of the deity themselves, seems a bit arrogant.
I also stand by what I said before. If there is belief that the Torah is providing all the protection then anyone against the Charedi conscription should call for Israel to move to an all volunteer army. If the Torah provides the protection than there's no need for anyone to be drafted.
There is a historical context to that document from the 'Va'ad Hamefaked' of Agudas Yisroel. Read the biography of Rabbi Levin where many original documents have been reproduced.
Please expand. What is the historical context that 'changes the story entirely' and meant that 'torah protects' could not have been relied upon back then?
They "know" that all those who serve in the IDF are lying when they claim that there are not enough soldiers. Such a claim is a complete lie and a blanket cancellation of all Shemirat haLashon laws
The Heaven is the source of the Absolute Truth. -- EMES - Ba'Shomayim. This we all Believe.
The epidemic of "Gray" - of the half-truths - present on our plane Earth have filled our leaders and our community with Chaos and with Confusion.
The blind are being lead by the blind. This is falsehood and "Gray" is simply not a Color - it is a lie.
I have lost respect for the leadership.
They lack Emunah and they lack Bitachon. They cannot or fail to see the Truth.
We have leaders and followers who state that they lack the tools to help them discriminate between the color Black the color White and can only see the Gray - the shade of black - the misinformation.
When directly asked - several of our experienced leaders state that they lack the tools - to help lead us out of this modern day Chaos. They refer their "cases" to organizations.
Sadly, it is often only when the "leader" themselves feel threatened by their own children and family members - when their children leave Yiddishkeit - that they feel the alarm be it a "suicide" or drug overdose or by a young Adult leaving the Family and Yiddishkeit. Most often only then, - is there a public notice. Otherwise there is SILENCE. Total and complete silence. Many Rabbis now carry "Narcan" in their cars - for the life threatening emergency - but have little or no kiruv work to listen to the painful cries of our uneducated individual children - seeking guidance - seeking Truth.
My question is are we acting as "hypocrites" isolated from the present day burning issues instead of as role models - listening and sharing our pain with them?
Have we assimilated the ever present secular based values and mixed the basic color of Truth, EMES. to become followers of the shade of Black - called Gray - with misinformation and lies.
Have we, the b'nai Torah", living in our present day society - become allied with the politically correct aura of "gray" and living with blindness - distant from the Truth?
As a Family Physician I can state that we have become technically advanced in the fragmented approach to disease and illness and yet, we have all become functionally handicapped and disorganized - saving the individual organ but often tragically losing the patient.
Our goal is that we, as individuals, must save each individual and we must save Yiddishkeit within our community - with EMES. We must learn with each other and from each other.
Der Aibeshter feert dem Velt. We are the servants only of Hashem.
We have no need for any Avodah Zorah.
We have the tools - and we can learn how to discriminate the Black from the White and see the Truth - the EMES - we need not live within the blindness of the Gray of our modern day society.
פירט די וועלט.. would be correct Yiddish. Not 'feert dem Velt'- that is simply incorrect. Very important to respect and learn properly the Yiddish language...
Why is it 'very important' to respect and learn properly the Yiddish language (or are you being sarcastic)? The only, rapidly diminishing group that speak it properly are the old maskilim living in Ramat Gan types. Beautiful Litvish Yiddish heard on Shabbos afternoon in the parks from the elderly dog walkers usually women.
I am very serious. I find it sad that Yiddish is passing away as we lost a third of our people in the holocaust, mostly Yiddish speakers.. and that so many of us today have a certain nostalgia yet it rarely goes beyond the odd word and so jokes..while we learn other languages properly and understand that languages have vocabulary and grammar.. It's sad.. so I point this phenomenon out critically. I come from a Yiddish speaking parental background and I too for many years learned other languages and didn't trouble myself too much with Yiddish.. till I realised in the last 10-15 years what a treasure this is and how it is sadly neglected..and I started learning more ..
Yiddish isn't the only Jewish language. There are more than a dozen dead/dying/moribund Jewish languages out there. Why fuss over Yiddish? I'd like to see a revival of spoken Aramaic which would really help Torah study.
That is what this is for- to give ones views. I wish we would just try to learn our rich culture and languages: Hebrew and Yiddish- and respect our cultural heritage. This is not reflected in the majority of Jewish families originally from Eastern Europe whose maximum tie to Yiddish is a few jokes or expressions.. while regarding other languages it's understood that these need be learned properly and that they have sentences and grammar.
I was actually alluding to the ר"ן. See the alternate גירסא in the מוסד רב קוק edition which is a little more clear in this regards. That it's not just about incorrectly attributing success to one's material abilities, but also to take credit based on one's righteousness.
An alternative perspective? What does that mean? How is that perspective different? What is the difference? If they’re different can they both be correct? If they can both be correct, how is that possible, seeing that they’re different?
Your are quite right - "What the Jewish People needs is Jews who will be moser nefesh in order to help other Jews, not in order to avoid helping other Jews" - by sowing hatred and discord, as you do.
We just read the hagaddah. The tone and attitude of your comments - of which of the sons does it remind you? I'll leave it to the many readers to contemplate this.
I notice the rudeness of the ultra-orthodox businessmen and the "rabbis" they crowned. Because they state that the only reason there is a prosperous "Orthodox world" in Israel is because of the grace of heaven; Not because of political protection and treating everyone who is not ultra-Orthodox as a woodcutter and their water pumper "Through Hashem's grace upon his nation of Yisrael, the world of Torah has grown and multiplied in the Eretz Hakedosha",
To be more specific, thanks to the funding from the Israeli government and taxpayers.
Yes, it is the grace of Heaven. I know that's not something you rationalists believe in. But yes...Grace of Heaven. We must be thankful to Hashem for all the blessings he has showered us with.
When I studied in yeshiva 50 and more years ago, then if it turned out that a student did not recognize a favor for the person who did it to him, he would be thrown out of the yeshiva. That is why we must say: Thank you to someone, with God's help you were able to help me.
When I was in the camps in Solovetsky 80 years ago, if you put your scarf down and averted your eyes for a few seconds, it would be gone by the time you looked back. We used to have to sleep with our boots on for fear that somebody would swipe them to sell for smoke or morsel of bread.
There are several problems with this article.
1. You start off by making a comparison to smartphones, saying that just because something is common or useful doesn't make it necessary. The proper conclusion would be that although drafting yeshiva students would be useful to the IDF, it's certainly not essential.
2. According to standard Torah perspective, the Agudah is correct that it is in the merit of the Torah students that the nation survives. You argue that historical numbers of Torah students demonstrate that the sheer numbers today are not essential, but this misses the point, that the government has declared a war against the Torah. If an enemy declares its intentions to destroy your organization that you have painstakingly built up over many decades, there is no comfort in the fact that your organization was much smaller 60 years ago.
3. For argument's sake, suppose the anonymously written poster from 1948 with no rabbinic signatures is real. I can believe it is real, given the emergency in 1948. However, in no way can that emergency be compared to the situation today, and therefore the situations are incomparable.
4. You write "sages" with quotation marks. Show some respect since they are real sages.
5. You complain about "hatefulness" of describing those seeking to equalize the burden of military service as “persecutors of religion.” But there is nothing hateful about this statement, they are persecutors of religion. Furthermore, it is ironic and obtuse for somebody seen as a merchant of hate to complain about hatefulness.
6. There is nothing obtuse about using the word "war" figuratively when there is an actual war going on. The fact that there is an actual war going on does not automatically create new and senseless language regulations. The same goes for "mesiras nefesh", which is commonly used for those who sacrifice their material comfort for higher spiritual achievements, and not just for people who have actually died.
7. Your speculation about the psychology of the anonymous authors of the poster you found is not grounded in reality.
8. Finally, portraying this as a "reform of Agudah" based on one poster you found does not demonstrate an interest in the truth. There is a great deal of historical context to Agudah's opposition to ZIonism and eventual grudging, partial reconciliation to the State, but you sum up the entire thing in some anonymous poster you found from 1948 which happens to be consistent with your own views.
Does the merit of the students require government funding? I think the first step would be that these yeshiva should acknowledge that the government has no obligation to fund their activities. If G-d wants them learning, he should see to it that they are funded and not rely on the state which needs to support the war. It would add a lot to their statements of belief if they would waive government funding. The fact is they want to be a drain on society to better control their members. It's not about Torah learning, it's a fear of them learning that not everything these rabbis say is the truth about the world. Just as any high demand group needs to control information.
They certainly don't rely on "government funding" - i.e. the pittance they are begrudgingly allocated by the government which is a tiny fraction of the millions pumped into chiloni institutions - if they did, they would have closed down years ago.
The major part of their support comes from other chareidi - and dati - Jews, who are delighted to have the privilege of supporting them.
The money that the charedi parties completely justifiably demand from the government (whose constituents pay just as much taxes as the chilonim - perhaps you never learned civics, but taxes are imposed according to income, not religious affiliation) is to give the State of Israel some part of the zchut of supporting Torah - for its own immense benefit.
They most certainly do not pay as much taxes. And the money is not being demanded for the State's benefit.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/do-charedim-live-off-state-really-really
"the pittance they are begrudgingly allocated by the government which is a tiny fraction of the millions pumped into chiloni institutions "
Please show us the numbers.
“According to the Knesset's Research and Information Center, in the year when the annual theater budget by itself was NIS 94.9 million, the budget for all Torah culture institutions in the country was NIS 8.3 million.
In addition:
The cinema - 79.5 million.
Music, orchestras, opera, Hebrew songs - 64.9 million
Arab cultural activities: 10.5 million
Culture and art festivals - 9.8 million.
“Plastic art” - 4.9 million.”
This is taken from an extensive article in Hebrew (https://www.hidabroot.org/article/1156242), a year ago, for which I don't have the translation.
This is dishonest nonsense (and I wouldn't expect anything else from the propagandists at Hidabroot). That number is only one particular budget - "Torah culture" - out of literally BILLIONS of shekels that are allocated to charedi schools overall, but which do are not assigned under the heading of "culture."
Er....Please show us the NUMBERS...
No, it doesn't require government funding. I don't believe the yeshiva has an obligation to announce whatever you want them to announce. I agree that it would be better if they weren't funded by the government, and from the looks of it, this is what will be happening in the near future. The rest of your comment are your own unfounded and false opinions.
I never thought I'd be discussing this with an atheist military officer but of course, they have no obligation to say what I want. I'm just pointing out that the argument that this is all about Torah learning is weakened when they also cry about needing to be funded. I know they aren't rational or logical but that's the truth.
As far as the rest of my statement it's based on extensive study of high-demand religions and cults and you can see the research of people like Robert Jay Lifton, Steven Hassan, and Margaret Singer among others on the use of information control and isolation as part of authoritarian groups.
The fact is that the Rabbis are scared of what these people will learn when exposed to ny world outside of the yeshiva. Why not let these students exercise their free will that they can choose the yeshiva or the Army instead of trying to decree something with no Torah basis. There are plenty in the Torah world of Hesder Yeshivot learning and serving, these people can do the same.
I don't see any indication that this letter is about crying about needing to be funded. It is about an impending attempt to draft yeshiva students.
Despite the fact that your opinion about yeshivos is based on your understanding of extensive study of high-demand religions and cults by people like Robert Jay Lifton, Steven Hassan, and Margaret Singer, it is nevertheless unfounded and false.
It's not false.
You know why even old fashioned SMS texting is banned amongst strict groups in Israel? One reason and one reason only. It can be used for mass dissemation of information, something the leadership fears.
If you have an alternative explanation do provide it, please.
If you hide behind the image of a dead person and think that these fools at the Agudah are sages, it clearly isn't worth pursuing this further. Also, my knowledge of yeshiva comes from being in it and seeing the dangers of the Orthodox world and how the Charedi community checks 80% of the boxes on every list of cult characteristics.
You've provided no evidence to show that I'm wrong but it's clear you're someone who believes things based on being told by some rabbi.
If you are not interested in discussion, but just in proclaiming your baseless opinions without any feedback, that's fine. Just don't pretend it's anything more than that.
About yeshivos, since you have provided no evidence to show that you are right, there is no expectation for me to provide evidence to show that you are wrong.
Persecuting religion includes refusal to give out handouts? Who gave them the right to be supported in the first place?
No. I wouldn't characterize the refusal to give handouts as persecuting religion.
What was point 5? Whos persecuting religion?
The government seeks to draft Torah students into the army, apart from the refusal to give handouts.
They also draft nearly all non-Torah students, with very few exceptions. Seems like they are persecuting the non-Torah students.
Those students don't have religious objections to serving, so they are not being religiously persecuted. Perhaps you are talking about people who have sincere secular objections to serving, and are yet pressed into service against their will. In those rare cases, I would tend to think they are being persecuted.
Yes. יהדות התורה is in favor of drafting Torah students into the army.
No, this is false.
There are also proposals to draft only the non-serious learners or non-learners. Some ישיבות only exist to hand out פטורים.
Several of your "problems" with the article are simply your assertions, like #5 for example. :)
" suppose the anonymously written poster from 1948 with no rabbinic signatures is real. I can believe it is real, given the emergency in 1948."
What emergency was that? Since when does a so called "emergency" allow from the abrogation of the Torah? Remember, that Charedi protesters have declared the draft as יהרג ועל יעבור. Plus, you have no authority to speculate on חילוקים on דעת תורה. There's no indication that this קול קורא was meant as a הוראת שעה.
But there's something else wrong with your comment. Your glib reference to "emergency" indicates you're blissfully unaware of our current crisis. Like so many of commenters here, you downplay the emergency we're in now.
Some protesters have called the draft יהרג ועל יעבור, but if there was a real emergency, and the draft would be of the nature of the one in 1948, perhaps those protesters wouldn't call it יהרג ועל יעבור.
I do not need authority to speculate on חילוקים on דעת תורה, I can do it without authority. The current Daas Torah is what it is, and I can speculate all I want as to its relationship with an unsigned poster from 1948.
Furthermore, there is nothing in the poster to indicate it is Daas Torah, and even if it was, there is nothing to indicate that it is anything other than הוראת שעה.
You have brought no evidence that the current situation is a crisis that is anything of the nature of 1948. I think that is your own speculation.
"perhaps"
Or it could be that they are liars. And there's no הלכה of יהרג ועל יעבור when in comes to the draft.
"but if there was a real emergency"
There you go again, downplaying the crisis.
" I can do it without authority."
So you don't hold of דעת תורה.
" current Daas Torah"
Implying that it goes against earlier דעת תורה.
"there is nothing in the poster to indicate it is Daas Torah"
Here's how Kikar described it "קריאת מועצת גדולי התורה של "אגודת ישראל" לגיוס חרדים ערב הקמת המדינה". You may have the חוצפה, but you have no authority to declare the pronouncements of the מועצת גדולי התורה as being not דעת תורה.
Or it could be that they are not liars, and you are a liar.
You haven't brought evidence that the crisis is the same as 1948 or even comparable. For all appearances, it is not. Therefore, any attempt to compare it to 1948 is in vain.
I hold of Daas Torah, and yet am able to give my opinion on the differences between 1948 and 2024. It appears that you believe holding of Daas Torah equates to not being able to have any opinion on any Torah matter, but this is not the case. This shouldn't be difficult to understand.
There is no implication that current Daas Torah is "against" previous Daas Torah. The poster doesn't say it is the מועצת גדולי התורה. The Kikar website is itself not representative of Daas Torah.
"For all appearances, it is not."
All appearance? All? You've looked at ALL appearances? No you haven't. And why depend on appearances instead of reality?
You have downplayed the crisis.
"I hold of Daas Torah, and yet am able to give my opinion"
But it's still just your opinion. Why should your opinion be an adequate, authentic and legitimate expression of דעת תורה?
"There is no implication that current Daas Torah is "against" previous Daas Torah. "
Previous דעת תורה: Charedim should serve. (And they did)
Present דעת תורה: Charedim shouldn't serve
" The Kikar website is itself not representative of Daas Torah."
There you go again. You first deny the authenticity of the poster, implying some conspiracy. That's simply paranoia. Then when a bona-fide charedi source confirms it, you provide a fallacious חילוק that Kikar is not representative of דעת תורה. But it doesn't have to be. Confirming facts of דעת תורה positions is not necessarily דעת תורה.
It seems you are unfamiliar with the phrase "all appearances", which means "judging from what can be seen". Somebody would have to be delusional to think that the current situation looks like the situation in 1948.
"But it's still just your opinion. Why should your opinion be an adequate, authentic and legitimate expression of דעת תורה?"
I am allowed to give my opinion on Daas Torah. That's what comments are for.
"Previous דעת תורה: Charedim should serve. (And they did) Present דעת תורה: Charedim shouldn't serve"
It is only a contradiction assuming that the situations are comparable. From all appearances, they are not.
"There you go again. You first deny the authenticity of the poster, implying some conspiracy. That's simply paranoia..."
No. There is no need for a conspiracy. There is no evidence that this poster or the Kikar website represents Daas Torah. It is possible it represents Daas Torah, but the fact that the poster has no signatures and doesn't quote the Moetzes doesn't help your case.
Can you please define exactly who qualifies as Daas Torah? I mean I always held Rav Aharon Lichtenstein in high respect as a Torah scholar and he believed you can serve in the Army and learn Torah. You keep using this vague term of "Daas Torah" which seems to mean, "rabbis I agree with."
" I mean I always held Rav Aharon Lichtenstein in high respect as a Torah scholar and he believed you can serve in the Army and learn Torah."
As they say, 'old hock.' There's a reason R Lichtenstein's father in law resigned from the moetzes. https://mizrachi.org/hamizrachi/rabbi-joseph-b-soloveitchik-leaves-agudath-yisrael-for-mizrachi/ This is a difference of opinion which isn't amenable to reducing to cutesy gotcha posters from 75 years ago.
"Since when does a so called "emergency" allow from the abrogation of the Torah?"
It had been universally accepted that all Jewish men were supposed to work for a living and to support their families, until the "emergency" of the loss of students after the Holocaust was construed to allow full time Torah study for life for everyone.
>"in the absence of a new situation, it’s logically impossible to claim that something new is essential."
While sympathetic to the broader argument, I don't think that this is the "gotcha" that you think it is. Something new can be a significant improvement on how things were in the past, and therefore indeed essential. For example, we now have the Iron dome defense system. This system didn't exist in the past, but is clearly now essential, since it's a significant improvement upon what we had before
Just to add: Obviously, in the narrowest sense of the word "essential", meaning "needed to survive", almost nothing is essential besides for basic food, water, shelter, and clothing. Essentially, how hunter-gatherers lived
In that particular example, it's been argued that it was Iron Dome that made us too "used" to missiles- hey, no one was dying, so what's the big deal? What we had before was crushing the enemy, see him driven before us, hear the lamentation of his women. That works.
I see what you did there. 🤣
I wasn't hiding it, to be fair. :-)
I realize that. Such a quote could never be accidental. Just who would notice (and appreciate its appropriateness) is the question.
"In the absence of a new situation, it’s logically impossible to claim that something new is essential."
Such as the state of Israel?
"I presume that the answer is as follows. The earlier rabbinic leaders, fresh from the horrors of the Holocaust, often personally connected to people who had fallen in Israel’s battles, were much more aware of the harsh realities of national survival and the importance of mutual responsibility."
You presumed something very similar in the wake of October 7th too. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/exposure-connection-and-involvement There's no particular reason to take your presumptions seriously.
"In 1948, Agudas Yisrael itself called on every charedi man between the age of 17 and 25 to join the army!"
Aside from being unsigned, the poster is a call to arms in defense of a local yishuv i.e yerushalayim. And the conditions attached are that it would be under charedi auspices. And girls should stay home. At most it's the equivalent of one of Ben Gvir's mini-militias.
"And yet they simultaneously claim that safety of the entire nation is entirely dependent on every one of all these tens of thousands being in yeshiva!"
They said no such thing.
"Aside from being unsigned,"
Your johnny-come-lately skepticism is no evidence of the poster being a forgery. For 75 years, no questioned it till you came along. We all know Charedim served in significant numbers in '48 and '67. We know R' Chaim Kanievsky served. There is no reason to question the poster's authenticity.
" it would be under charedi auspices. "
And does that make a difference?
"Your johnny-come-lately skepticism is no evidence of the poster being a forgery. For 75 years, no questioned it till you came along."
I'm not claiming it's a forgery. I said it's unsigned. Which it plainly is.
"And does that make a difference?"
At this point? Maybe not. But part of how we got here is most definitely due to that. One of the founders of nachal charedi literally quit due to not wanting to be part of a 'culture war.' https://www.bhol.co.il/news/138619
"I'm not claiming it's a forgery. I said it's unsigned. "
Why did you say it was unsigned?
Because it was.
Dr Slifkin is claiming a contradiction between the current agudah and the one at the founding. That's ludicrous on many levels, one of which is that the purported contradiction is between american rabbonim with names, and some nameless 'vaad ha'poel.' It's like those pashkevillim which declare things in the name of 'yehudim koavim.'
One of the major benefits of raising your kids chareidi and not dating leumi is that they won't tell you they need a smartphone.
Kids tell their parents they "need". The parents' job is to say "no". Parents who are already living out of the "ghetto" walls, need to be fearless and reject the materialist (and anti-Torah) nonsense in the wider secular world.
One the major benefits of raising kids non-Charedi is that they won't tell you they won't marry unless you buy them an apartment.
Totally disagree with you. Languages are not merely there and neutral to cultural content. The disappearing or moribund Yiddish is a loss to Yiddishkeit and Torah. Today the dominance of English in the West does not add to Torah, of itself- it involves a great deal of value assimilation. Most English speakers are unable to access sources at the level of Hebrew speakers. The Torah study doesn't just persist in a vacuum- Loss is loss and cannot be replaced in other frameworks, culturally and language-wise. Thus whatever can be preserved of our parents generation's Judaism is meaningful, more so than one translated to values imbedded in languages less imbued with Jewish people and culture. Thus the loss of Yiddish is to be mourned and it's preservation encouraged. A Judaism based upon American Jewish culture and language is different- language is more important than you acknowledge. Both Hebrew and Aramaic of our source texts were grounded in a real national Jewish culture of the past and therefore resonate. The predominant languages of diaspora Jews- English- is not a 'national' language of our people, thus it cannot reflect Jewish culture or learning in a full sense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel: "Leading active athletes might in many cases be granted an "Outstanding athlete" status which allows them to get a more convenient and shorter service, so they can continue to develop their career and represent Israel abroad in international competitions. The "Outstanding athlete" status is given only to athletes competing in Olympic sports. In addition, the military also grants the similar "Outstanding dancer" status and an "Outstanding musician" status. This status is granted in the same way and after the individuals have been examined. They may also be granted a more convenient service so that they can continue to improve their abilities and career during military service." Whatever percentage of athletes, musicians and dancers receive these exemptions should also apply to "Outstanding Torah scholars." Only the very best.
And who are you to ask? What is it you wish to say ..that this pigeon Yiddish approach is respectful to our rich cultural heritage that was..that that is all that remains..?
I've long lost any respect for the Agudah (if I ever had any) as they've pretty much aligned with the Christian fascist movement. For a bunch of grown men to put out such a whiny temper tantrum in connection with a country they don't even live in. That statement is just over the top ridiculous and delusional.
> "And our wondrous G-d will not reject the prayers of the masses, and may we merit to see the honor of the Torah be uplifted and the salvation of Hashem of His nation and His portion and the redemption of the entire world, with the coming of the Righteous Redeemer, speedily in our days, Amen."
As they declare that the prayers will not be rejected, it seems to me that if this does go through it clearly is what G-d wants. Really something to speak on behalf of the deity themselves, seems a bit arrogant.
I also stand by what I said before. If there is belief that the Torah is providing all the protection then anyone against the Charedi conscription should call for Israel to move to an all volunteer army. If the Torah provides the protection than there's no need for anyone to be drafted.
There is a historical context to that document from the 'Va'ad Hamefaked' of Agudas Yisroel. Read the biography of Rabbi Levin where many original documents have been reproduced.
That context changes the story entirely.
Please expand. What is the historical context that 'changes the story entirely' and meant that 'torah protects' could not have been relied upon back then?
They "know" that all those who serve in the IDF are lying when they claim that there are not enough soldiers. Such a claim is a complete lie and a blanket cancellation of all Shemirat haLashon laws
B'S'D
Thank you for you concern. You are not alone.
Im ayn Torah ayn Chuchmah.
The Heaven is the source of the Absolute Truth. -- EMES - Ba'Shomayim. This we all Believe.
The epidemic of "Gray" - of the half-truths - present on our plane Earth have filled our leaders and our community with Chaos and with Confusion.
The blind are being lead by the blind. This is falsehood and "Gray" is simply not a Color - it is a lie.
I have lost respect for the leadership.
They lack Emunah and they lack Bitachon. They cannot or fail to see the Truth.
We have leaders and followers who state that they lack the tools to help them discriminate between the color Black the color White and can only see the Gray - the shade of black - the misinformation.
When directly asked - several of our experienced leaders state that they lack the tools - to help lead us out of this modern day Chaos. They refer their "cases" to organizations.
Sadly, it is often only when the "leader" themselves feel threatened by their own children and family members - when their children leave Yiddishkeit - that they feel the alarm be it a "suicide" or drug overdose or by a young Adult leaving the Family and Yiddishkeit. Most often only then, - is there a public notice. Otherwise there is SILENCE. Total and complete silence. Many Rabbis now carry "Narcan" in their cars - for the life threatening emergency - but have little or no kiruv work to listen to the painful cries of our uneducated individual children - seeking guidance - seeking Truth.
My question is are we acting as "hypocrites" isolated from the present day burning issues instead of as role models - listening and sharing our pain with them?
Have we assimilated the ever present secular based values and mixed the basic color of Truth, EMES. to become followers of the shade of Black - called Gray - with misinformation and lies.
Have we, the b'nai Torah", living in our present day society - become allied with the politically correct aura of "gray" and living with blindness - distant from the Truth?
As a Family Physician I can state that we have become technically advanced in the fragmented approach to disease and illness and yet, we have all become functionally handicapped and disorganized - saving the individual organ but often tragically losing the patient.
Our goal is that we, as individuals, must save each individual and we must save Yiddishkeit within our community - with EMES. We must learn with each other and from each other.
Der Aibeshter feert dem Velt. We are the servants only of Hashem.
We have no need for any Avodah Zorah.
We have the tools - and we can learn how to discriminate the Black from the White and see the Truth - the EMES - we need not live within the blindness of the Gray of our modern day society.
Humbly,
Dr George Yehuda Zev Moskowitz
.
majoiorty of the
פירט די וועלט.. would be correct Yiddish. Not 'feert dem Velt'- that is simply incorrect. Very important to respect and learn properly the Yiddish language...
Why is it 'very important' to respect and learn properly the Yiddish language (or are you being sarcastic)? The only, rapidly diminishing group that speak it properly are the old maskilim living in Ramat Gan types. Beautiful Litvish Yiddish heard on Shabbos afternoon in the parks from the elderly dog walkers usually women.
I am very serious. I find it sad that Yiddish is passing away as we lost a third of our people in the holocaust, mostly Yiddish speakers.. and that so many of us today have a certain nostalgia yet it rarely goes beyond the odd word and so jokes..while we learn other languages properly and understand that languages have vocabulary and grammar.. It's sad.. so I point this phenomenon out critically. I come from a Yiddish speaking parental background and I too for many years learned other languages and didn't trouble myself too much with Yiddish.. till I realised in the last 10-15 years what a treasure this is and how it is sadly neglected..and I started learning more ..
Yiddish isn't the only Jewish language. There are more than a dozen dead/dying/moribund Jewish languages out there. Why fuss over Yiddish? I'd like to see a revival of spoken Aramaic which would really help Torah study.
You haven't actually answered my question. You finding it sad does not make it important. That's your personal view.
That is what this is for- to give ones views. I wish we would just try to learn our rich culture and languages: Hebrew and Yiddish- and respect our cultural heritage. This is not reflected in the majority of Jewish families originally from Eastern Europe whose maximum tie to Yiddish is a few jokes or expressions.. while regarding other languages it's understood that these need be learned properly and that they have sentences and grammar.
"thanks to whom the entire nation has spiritual and material existence."
כחי ועצם ידי עשה לי את החיל הזה
You must be unaware of the very next pasuk
וזכרת את ה אלקיך כי הוא הנתן לך כח לעשות חיל
which says that it IS the physical strength that allows you to win, you just have to remember that it's not "yours" but rather given to you by God.
You must also be unaware, like charedim in general, of the pasuk which says that Torah learning does not provide military success:
אל תאמר בלבבך בהדף ה אלקיך אתם מלפניך לאמר בצדקתי הביאני ה לרשת את הארץ
(In fact it's shocking how ignorant the recent Agudah statement in the post is of this pasuk)
I agree with everything you wrote- except the part "You must be unaware...". I am aware.
Ah, got it, I misunderstood what you were trying to do in your comment.
Reread his comment. I think you missed what he was saying.
>>כחי ועצם ידי עשה לי את החיל הזה<<
See Drashos haRan #10 for an alternative perspective on this pasuk.
I was actually alluding to the ר"ן. See the alternate גירסא in the מוסד רב קוק edition which is a little more clear in this regards. That it's not just about incorrectly attributing success to one's material abilities, but also to take credit based on one's righteousness.
@Isaac Waxman,
An alternative perspective? What does that mean? How is that perspective different? What is the difference? If they’re different can they both be correct? If they can both be correct, how is that possible, seeing that they’re different?
"The earlier rabbinic leaders, fresh from the horrors of the Holocaust,"
Before the Holocaust, Agudath Israel of America was led by people like Rabbi Dr. Leo Jung and Rabbi Dr. Joseph Soloveitchik!
The Agudah in America is very different from the one in Israel.
Your are quite right - "What the Jewish People needs is Jews who will be moser nefesh in order to help other Jews, not in order to avoid helping other Jews" - by sowing hatred and discord, as you do.
The discord and hatred is created by those who expect everyone else to sacrifice for them.
The rabbis who are comparing soldiers to street cleaners, that's not sowing hatred and discord?
We just read the hagaddah. The tone and attitude of your comments - of which of the sons does it remind you? I'll leave it to the many readers to contemplate this.
Right, I was thinking that the charedi avoidance of army service is an example of ולפי שהוציא את כצמו מן הכלל, כופר בעיקר
oh very clever