"The ideology needs to be changed" is a non-starter. I have a different solution. Or rather a workaround that I believe would lead to a long-term solution.
Let's begin with some assumptions:
1. A significant percentage of Chareidim would like to be more involved in Israeli society, be it army service, schooling, employment or Zionism. But they lack the courage/incentive to break away from their families and communities. They are not interested in "making a statement," nor do they wish to alienate their families, neighbors, friends or rabbeim.
2. It is acceptable for Chareidim to do certain public service jobs, notably, Zaka and Hatzalah.
3. While the country needs literal boots on the ground right now; long term, the country needs security forces, border control, policing, etc., i.e., non-combat positions.
With this in mind, I would propose starting--and here I must search from an appropriate word: "force" or "unit" or "division" won't work. How about--a service organization, similar to Hatzalah. It would be called Shomrim.
Just as Hatzalah started in Brooklyn in 1965, Shomrim patrols began in the 1970s in Brooklyn before spreading to other frum communities in the New York City area. Today there's a Shomrim in London and even in Teaneck! (It started there recently in light of local behavior in the wake of 10/7.) Here in the U.S. Shomrim work with local law enforcement to keep an eye on the frum community.
In Israel, United Hatzalah in Israel launched in 2006 (combining dozens of pre-existing Hatzalah organizations). today it comprises over 7,000 volunteer medics. I believe that, launched properly and with the right people at the helm, Shomrim would be seen as a kosher endeavor for boys (not girls of course!) who want to expand be useful and are not cut out for learning in yeshiva 12 hours a day.
For this to work
(a) it would have to start off small and slow
(b) it would have to stick precisely to its mission statement of assisting law enforcement. Think young men with walkie-talkies (no. not THAT kind) patrolling malls
(c) there would be no uniforms. Maybe a vest
(d) there would be some initial training in self-defense and in following a chain of command
(e) it would never ever be seen as a precursor for Chareidi army enlistment
Then. Phase two
(a) More training. Possibly how to shoot a pistol. (My feeling is that the volunteers will be asking for this before anyone has to ask them.)
(b) More responsibility. Shemirah in towns, bus stations, Holy sites.
(c) More organizational structure. Shomrim know who they report to and know who reports to them.
(d) More publicity. The branding has to be right. It has to promote Shomrim as a Chareidi enterprise, but serving the whole country. A Gemilus Chasadim initiative writ large.
Phase three
(a) More training, in line with Tzahal and/or Mishtarah
(b) Uniforms (blue not green). Titles, possibly ranks
(c) stipends
(d) credit toward Sheirut Le'umi
Ultimately, Shomrim would be a force capable of many peacetime Tzahal functions. It would be acceptable to the Chareidi community, much as Hatzalah and Zaka are. It would provide an "out" from the system for the many Chareidi boys who want, and desperately need, one. AND the next time (God forbid) Israel finds itself lacking boots-on-the-ground manpower, it would be a ready-made force that would need a far shorter time in basic training to be prepared for the real military.
The first good idea I saw on this blog ever-except for the one about unicorns=rhinos. Mark Rosenberg said make a separate chareidi military, but he didn't think through all the details. You did, and you came up with something. Bravo to you, I say.
Didn't say it was. My point is that it's acceptable for a 20-something Chareidi to be in Hatzalah, where it is not necessarily acceptable for said 20-something to be in Tzahal.
Let's just say that for record, Nachum is not interested in solving the problem, he just wants to complain. You can see that from every single comment on this thread.
Fact is: If you are a 22-year-old Chareidi interested in "doing something" for your country, but NOT at the expense of alienating your family, friends and neighbors, you simply won't join the army.
Why should "they" get that power? In hachi nami! But "they" do.
While I am sure you mean well, this will not solve the problem. The problem is that charedim don't serve as soldiers, in life-threatening situations, like the rest of the army. Anything short of drafting charedim will not solve the problem.
But of course, charedim will never join a secular IDF. We can stop their money, take away their benefits and passports, and even put them in jail. They will never, ever join the secular IDF because they feel it will destroy their religion, and to them, there is nothing more important than sustaining their religion.
The only solution I see is a separate charedi army, run entirely by charedim and without any interaction with non-charedim.
I understand that I don't know how such an army could work. But if there is a real desire to resolve the problems, the experts will find a way to make such an army work. Unless the experts don't want to solve the problem, and just want to vent.
I'll save you the time: It wouldn't work. What, in an October 7-like situation you'd want a bunch of soldiers refusing to fight alongside others? Give me a break, and do yourself a favor and drop this fantasy.
Mark, I have absolutely no doubt that, particularly after Oct. 7, many (though perhaps not most) young chareidim of military age felt the urge to go fight. For social reasons, there was no path for them to do so (that includes Netzach Yehuda which is still outside the pale, though less so than general army service). Some 2,000 did anyway, according to the IDF, or at least tried to.
I believe this is a realistic outline of a plan to prepare young men for eventual enlistment but more importantly to prepare the COMMUNITY for greater acceptance.
Srully, watch the video at www.vayakhel.com to understand why charedim will never, ever join the IDF.
What I suggest is the creation of a new, separate army with a 100% charedi environment, with charedi commanders and generals, and zero interaction with non-charedim. The same environment in which they currently raise their children. I believe charedim will join such an army.
Sorry Mark, Sruli's idea is much better and thought-out than yours. He also says that in the long term, this could lead to chareidim having better readiness to serve as soldiers in life-threatening situations, to placate the complaints of the chilonim. It's a great plan.
Watch the video at www.vayakhel.com to understand why charedim will never, ever join the IDF.
What I suggest is the creation of a new, separate army with a 100% charedi environment, with charedi commanders and generals, and zero interaction with non-charedim. The same environment in which they currently raise their children. I believe charedim will join such an army.
I've seen the video. I found it hard to follow and my Hebrew's not that good. But I believe the gist of it is that he's saying it's not a bittul Torah issue so much as a social interaction issue. Which is what I would argue as well.
And I agree that your suggestion would be a workaround, if it was workable. But they tried it with Netzach Yehuda and it didn't work out on a mass scale for many reasons. You can't simply Start an army with commanders and generals. They have to come up the ranks somehow, which means before there can be a 100% Chareidi environment there has to be a -- pick one -- 75%, 50%, 25% Chareidi environment.
Also, when an army is fighting they can't quite segregate soldiers in such a way that units never "run into" each other. It's not feasible. And I think the Chareidi leaders know this, so that any suggestion simply won't be "enough" to satisfy the requirements.
I think at the end of the day, the leadership is concerned that any push, any Movement, any Program that is outside of the yeshiva/kollel rubric will ultimately dilute the entire system. And they want to protect the system. Individuals can, with certain (many) qualifications, go their own way. But it can never be systemic. That's why people can go get jobs, individually. But if someone tries to build a mechinah high school with classes to train them for eventual employment, he gets put in cheirem.
My proposal is a workaround. It's not meant to be a loud, splashy Grand Scheme. It's meant to be a quiet, slip-them-through-the-back-door, solution. It starts with something acceptable and then grows organically to the point that by the time anyone (read: Askanim) realize that it became an entry point to Tzahal, it's already become an entry point to Tzahal. And the challenge would be to scale it in a way that it doesn't attract attention until it's already rooted in the fiber of Chareidi society.
Do you really think the charedim won't read your comments and won't realize what the goal is?
Look, I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing. I'm trying to find a legitimate solution that works for everyone.
Fooling the charedim won't work.
A separate army will work. If we want it to work, it will work. And yes, you can start an army with commanders, just as the IDF was started from scratch. The Charedi army can start small, perhaps by doing police work instead of active combat, until they are ready for the big leagues. They can also be trained by the US Army, just as the US Army trains armies all around the world.
Look, if your goal is to draft Charedim, this is a great way, and if there's a will there's a way. But if your goal is to make Charedim into non-charedim, then this won't work, for obvious reasons.
Charedim, by the way, suspect that the goal is to make them non-charedim. Do you think they're right?
"Anything short of drafting charedim will not solve the problem." I disagree. I think my suggestion can alleviate, if not quite solve, the problem. It would take time but any good solution would have to do that.
The Draft-the-Chareidim seekers are a classic case of the perfect being the enemy of the good.
RNS has to have more not less analysis of chareidi failures to convince people who haven't even begun to see and appreciate how harmful many Chareidi beliefs and approaches are to themselves, to others and to the country. In addition how harmful it is to their spiritual self. RNS you are doing a great job. Keep it up.Thank you. We need need more like you.
I think you're being a bit too generous. The problem can basically be summed up in one point: Charedim don't accept anything that doesn't come from them. Hence, Zionism is pasul, and they've never made their peace with the existence of Israel. So why would they serve in its military?
Thank you again for “speaking truth to power”. Some of the comments above are …astounding. The arrogance that resulted from an ignorance of history is on full display. e.g……
I’m sure that 400 years ago, gdoilay sfarad wore bekeshes and fedoras😄
That military battle dress is arbitrary….
So much to know…..
Thanks again- and yes- keep it up until things change. It’s a difficult battle to shed light on אמת. That’s why we say יישר כוחך!
The irony or paradox can be resolved by borrowing from the משל, but not the נמשל:
יָדַע שׁוֹר קֹנֵהוּ וַחֲמוֹר אֵבוּס בְּעָלָיו
Those Charedim do not relate to the State beyond the tropes and slogans (e.g. Uganda and "One Cow") I've listed so many times before. As such, participation in the gov't is not about aspiring for some lofty vision, messianic or not. It's simply to get one's fair share of the trough. And if it's an unfair share of the trough, that all the better (especially if the unfair portion was acquired "fairly".) They don't see a government, they see a trough.
You conflate the worship of the State with dependence on it. Once you separate the two, there's no irony.
Jesus. What a waste of God given talent . Fighting a futile battle by preaching the to already converted instead of an op Ed in the NYT explaining Israel’s side. We all know what the road to hell is paved with. Rabbi, good points, we heard you the first time and the thousandth time . Are you helping to war effort or increasing your resentment by feeding it?
For the thousandth time, I disagree that my posts serve no purpose, and I've explained why. If you continue to post the identical comment, I will ban you.
I've come to the following conclusion. As someone who generally identifies with the chareidi community, I am admittedly biased to think your anti-chareidi posts are doing more damage than good for our nation. I can admit that there may be a net benefit to your posts even though I disagree and I will no longer ask you to stop because I recognize I am incapable of making a proper assessment (I'm not Charles btw).
I think it's more than fair, though, to assume that you are equally biased and are not in a good position to make this calculation on your own whether you are doing more good than damage.
Therefore, in the spirit of the yamin noraim and aseres yemei tshuva I beg of you to please consult with someone wise whom you respect who can give you unbiased advice - if you haven't already (if you have, just let us know and I will move on) - whether it is proper or not to continue this mission of yours.
I imagine you can figure out on your own just how terrible it would be for you if you are on the wrong side of this calculation, so please do this for yourself and all of us.
I paid , but ban away. I’m not arguing that your posts serve no purpose. I don’t know. If you can get more people into the army , good. What I’m saying is there is obvious talent here and such a clear voice is needed in public advocacy and there is only so much Rabbi Slifkin to go around . Yes you have the reach to write op Ed’s for American papers. If not the Times there are a thousand outlets . And I bet there are people to help you place stuff . I have a couple connections myself. And from there you could get interviewed , if not CNN in local TV . Outlets are starving for original content . I’m Hayom yom it quotes the Rashab as saying that ( in the context of learning ) that someone capable of dealing in precious stones should not be working in semiprecious stones. At a minimum , comment on an article in the Times . No one can say what you can . There’s a war on
I have to echo the disbelief that you'd begin such a self-righteous post with "Jesus." I mean, lots of us raised in Christian countries may blurt it out at times, but to *write* it? Is this is a joke, or are you?
I don't think that working with Hatzala is equivalent to be on the front lines in Gaza, or Beirut. It is definitely not right that one section of society has to be in combat, while others are exempt, especiaally when I am sure that some in the Yeshivas do NOT learn very diligently.
"the ultimate horrible root in charedi society for behaviour that ultimately cannot be described as anything other than evil." Natan you used to be a good friend and you used to be rational but there's nothing rational about this sick hatred of charedi society. The behavior is not evil, it is not the road to hell, it is based primarily on the need to save the Torah world - at least that explains the rationale until about 1990. After that it was based upon the response to attempts to create a charedi unit- dubbed Nachal Charedi- which was basically a stepping stone for those who didn't want to remain charedi or wanted to become secular. There was almost nobody who went in charedi and came out of the army with the same level of yirat shamayim. I know this firsthand I saw it when I served in the 90s. True the yeshivot hesder continue to produce fine yerei shamayim who knew how to handle the secularism as they had been inured to it throughout their education, but there is no way a regular charedi could handle the culture shock of a totally secular-based army (with lip service to halachic requirements except when they want everyone to hear females singing...). That is why Rabbi Leibel's demands -which should have been recognized by the army 20 years ago - are only now beginning to be implemented.
Now stop calling the charedim "evil". They are not evil, maybe stubborn about wanting to maintain their lifestyle and being unimpressed by the IDF's attempts to accomodate that lifestyle. The army is as much to blame as they are for their lack of conscription- IT DIDNT WANT THEM- at least until Oct. 7th
Great piece, spot on. Chareidim are in a completely different world than then the rest of Israel, so the war doesn't affect them nearly as much emotionally. Interestingly, the American yeshiva world is much more aware and involved in the Gaza War, all the while thinking they are just like Israeli Chareidim!
A Few smaller changes in the IDF environment to accommodate Charedim, could be a more realistic fix. Basically, show respect for their values, uphold the highest and strictest religious requirements, provide time for serious sedarim where possible, along with top Maggidei Shiur. And voilà! you don't need to wait for a fantastical solution to appear. Granted, these units will be less efficient when viewed from a strictly logistical perspective, but they will provide more than enough service to make a concrete contribution.
PS- Uniforms can include the familiar black and white dress with black hats that look just like rabbit felt. Black jackets in the code that are cammo green when reversed inside out. Canvas bekishes for Chassidim with an IDF gartel. Yiddish-speaking army bases with a mikvah. Just a few innovations, and the major political problems are resolved.
It seems that you may have misunderstood my intention. There should be not one, but many different Charedi units; each one can be geared for another specific group. The Yiddish-speaking army bases were meant for those groups within the Charedi world who would be well-served by such an environment. The Charedi world is actually comprised of many individual sects.
Thank you for giving me the chance to explain myself.
I am in favor of making people want to serve. For the Yiddish-speaking crowd this will make them more comfortable. That will also equal greater productivity and better communication within the group.
If that isn't enough for you, think of the confusion Hamas will encounter when they eavesdrop on these communications. Sinwar and many Arabs are fluent in Hebrew, but Yiddish? Not really. It is an extra layer of security which can make a critical difference. But that is beside the point; it's just an added bonus for being accommodating.
The Shlav bet is not relevant, as it's only intended for older people, those already exempted for different reasons.
The IDF has tried to accommodate charedim in the past many times, it's not working. So if love won't make it, the answer should be obvious to any normal, self preserving state.
I have never seen a brochure advertising an IDF unit that respects the needs of (strictly religious)[edit: ultra-orthodox] people. The "love" you refer to may be genuine, but it is gravely uninformed. Kind of like when your friends invite you to come to a baseball game and bought you a ticket, but you absolutely hate going to baseball games.
What I am suggesting is speaking to Charedi Roshei Yeshivos and figuring out how to *really* accommodate them. This may come at some cost in numerous areas to the army, but is worth the compromise.
Others may argue it isn't worth it; here's what they might have overlooked: While much of the battlefield has remained the same, there are critical changes developing. The proliferation of drones and robotics in combat has created a secondary need for soldiers to remotely control these gadgets. Soldiers who are trained for this type of warfare must watch cameras and develop a different set of skills. The training and application of these skills are more compatible with the accommodations we would be looking at.
Hopefully someone other than me will realize this, and something will change!
My sons are thankfully home right now, but the stories they told us are nothing like summer camp. We have friends whose sons were killed and others who were injured and will never be the same. Many are back in Gaza or the north for the 3rd or 4th time. One married late, and would love to start a family, but seems to have been away from home too much for that to happen right now.
I am in favor of accommodating Hareidi halachik requirements, and there are many army jobs that involve computers and screen time (and these are assigned on an individual basis based on the soldier's ability, and the army's needs), but a system in which every able bodied Hareidi soldier is tracked straight to a non-combat role is not exactly sharing the burden
"The ideology needs to be changed" is a non-starter. I have a different solution. Or rather a workaround that I believe would lead to a long-term solution.
Let's begin with some assumptions:
1. A significant percentage of Chareidim would like to be more involved in Israeli society, be it army service, schooling, employment or Zionism. But they lack the courage/incentive to break away from their families and communities. They are not interested in "making a statement," nor do they wish to alienate their families, neighbors, friends or rabbeim.
2. It is acceptable for Chareidim to do certain public service jobs, notably, Zaka and Hatzalah.
3. While the country needs literal boots on the ground right now; long term, the country needs security forces, border control, policing, etc., i.e., non-combat positions.
With this in mind, I would propose starting--and here I must search from an appropriate word: "force" or "unit" or "division" won't work. How about--a service organization, similar to Hatzalah. It would be called Shomrim.
Just as Hatzalah started in Brooklyn in 1965, Shomrim patrols began in the 1970s in Brooklyn before spreading to other frum communities in the New York City area. Today there's a Shomrim in London and even in Teaneck! (It started there recently in light of local behavior in the wake of 10/7.) Here in the U.S. Shomrim work with local law enforcement to keep an eye on the frum community.
In Israel, United Hatzalah in Israel launched in 2006 (combining dozens of pre-existing Hatzalah organizations). today it comprises over 7,000 volunteer medics. I believe that, launched properly and with the right people at the helm, Shomrim would be seen as a kosher endeavor for boys (not girls of course!) who want to expand be useful and are not cut out for learning in yeshiva 12 hours a day.
For this to work
(a) it would have to start off small and slow
(b) it would have to stick precisely to its mission statement of assisting law enforcement. Think young men with walkie-talkies (no. not THAT kind) patrolling malls
(c) there would be no uniforms. Maybe a vest
(d) there would be some initial training in self-defense and in following a chain of command
(e) it would never ever be seen as a precursor for Chareidi army enlistment
Then. Phase two
(a) More training. Possibly how to shoot a pistol. (My feeling is that the volunteers will be asking for this before anyone has to ask them.)
(b) More responsibility. Shemirah in towns, bus stations, Holy sites.
(c) More organizational structure. Shomrim know who they report to and know who reports to them.
(d) More publicity. The branding has to be right. It has to promote Shomrim as a Chareidi enterprise, but serving the whole country. A Gemilus Chasadim initiative writ large.
Phase three
(a) More training, in line with Tzahal and/or Mishtarah
(b) Uniforms (blue not green). Titles, possibly ranks
(c) stipends
(d) credit toward Sheirut Le'umi
Ultimately, Shomrim would be a force capable of many peacetime Tzahal functions. It would be acceptable to the Chareidi community, much as Hatzalah and Zaka are. It would provide an "out" from the system for the many Chareidi boys who want, and desperately need, one. AND the next time (God forbid) Israel finds itself lacking boots-on-the-ground manpower, it would be a ready-made force that would need a far shorter time in basic training to be prepared for the real military.
The first good idea I saw on this blog ever-except for the one about unicorns=rhinos. Mark Rosenberg said make a separate chareidi military, but he didn't think through all the details. You did, and you came up with something. Bravo to you, I say.
Thank you. Very kind words, sir.
Just for the record, United Hatzalah is not a charedi organization.
Didn't say it was. My point is that it's acceptable for a 20-something Chareidi to be in Hatzalah, where it is not necessarily acceptable for said 20-something to be in Tzahal.
Let's just say that for record, Nachum is not interested in solving the problem, he just wants to complain. You can see that from every single comment on this thread.
Well, that's not logical. Who deems such things "acceptable" or not, and why should they get that power?
It doesn't have to be logical to be true!
Fact is: If you are a 22-year-old Chareidi interested in "doing something" for your country, but NOT at the expense of alienating your family, friends and neighbors, you simply won't join the army.
Why should "they" get that power? In hachi nami! But "they" do.
Nachum, when you were drafted, did you get to tell the IDF what you thought would be "acceptable" for you to do?
Not my post, sorry.
he wasn't drafted
Oh, do we know each other?
While I am sure you mean well, this will not solve the problem. The problem is that charedim don't serve as soldiers, in life-threatening situations, like the rest of the army. Anything short of drafting charedim will not solve the problem.
But of course, charedim will never join a secular IDF. We can stop their money, take away their benefits and passports, and even put them in jail. They will never, ever join the secular IDF because they feel it will destroy their religion, and to them, there is nothing more important than sustaining their religion.
The only solution I see is a separate charedi army, run entirely by charedim and without any interaction with non-charedim.
I understand that I don't know how such an army could work. But if there is a real desire to resolve the problems, the experts will find a way to make such an army work. Unless the experts don't want to solve the problem, and just want to vent.
I'll save you the time: It wouldn't work. What, in an October 7-like situation you'd want a bunch of soldiers refusing to fight alongside others? Give me a break, and do yourself a favor and drop this fantasy.
If we really wanted the charedim to be drafted, we would find a way to make it work.
Unless we just want to complain? Maybe we don't really want the charedim to serve, because then we would have nothing to complain about?
Mark, I have absolutely no doubt that, particularly after Oct. 7, many (though perhaps not most) young chareidim of military age felt the urge to go fight. For social reasons, there was no path for them to do so (that includes Netzach Yehuda which is still outside the pale, though less so than general army service). Some 2,000 did anyway, according to the IDF, or at least tried to.
I believe this is a realistic outline of a plan to prepare young men for eventual enlistment but more importantly to prepare the COMMUNITY for greater acceptance.
Srully, watch the video at www.vayakhel.com to understand why charedim will never, ever join the IDF.
What I suggest is the creation of a new, separate army with a 100% charedi environment, with charedi commanders and generals, and zero interaction with non-charedim. The same environment in which they currently raise their children. I believe charedim will join such an army.
Sorry Mark, Sruli's idea is much better and thought-out than yours. He also says that in the long term, this could lead to chareidim having better readiness to serve as soldiers in life-threatening situations, to placate the complaints of the chilonim. It's a great plan.
Watch the video at www.vayakhel.com to understand why charedim will never, ever join the IDF.
What I suggest is the creation of a new, separate army with a 100% charedi environment, with charedi commanders and generals, and zero interaction with non-charedim. The same environment in which they currently raise their children. I believe charedim will join such an army.
I've seen the video. I found it hard to follow and my Hebrew's not that good. But I believe the gist of it is that he's saying it's not a bittul Torah issue so much as a social interaction issue. Which is what I would argue as well.
And I agree that your suggestion would be a workaround, if it was workable. But they tried it with Netzach Yehuda and it didn't work out on a mass scale for many reasons. You can't simply Start an army with commanders and generals. They have to come up the ranks somehow, which means before there can be a 100% Chareidi environment there has to be a -- pick one -- 75%, 50%, 25% Chareidi environment.
Also, when an army is fighting they can't quite segregate soldiers in such a way that units never "run into" each other. It's not feasible. And I think the Chareidi leaders know this, so that any suggestion simply won't be "enough" to satisfy the requirements.
I think at the end of the day, the leadership is concerned that any push, any Movement, any Program that is outside of the yeshiva/kollel rubric will ultimately dilute the entire system. And they want to protect the system. Individuals can, with certain (many) qualifications, go their own way. But it can never be systemic. That's why people can go get jobs, individually. But if someone tries to build a mechinah high school with classes to train them for eventual employment, he gets put in cheirem.
My proposal is a workaround. It's not meant to be a loud, splashy Grand Scheme. It's meant to be a quiet, slip-them-through-the-back-door, solution. It starts with something acceptable and then grows organically to the point that by the time anyone (read: Askanim) realize that it became an entry point to Tzahal, it's already become an entry point to Tzahal. And the challenge would be to scale it in a way that it doesn't attract attention until it's already rooted in the fiber of Chareidi society.
In other words.... let's trick them.
Do you really think the charedim won't read your comments and won't realize what the goal is?
Look, I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing. I'm trying to find a legitimate solution that works for everyone.
Fooling the charedim won't work.
A separate army will work. If we want it to work, it will work. And yes, you can start an army with commanders, just as the IDF was started from scratch. The Charedi army can start small, perhaps by doing police work instead of active combat, until they are ready for the big leagues. They can also be trained by the US Army, just as the US Army trains armies all around the world.
Look, if your goal is to draft Charedim, this is a great way, and if there's a will there's a way. But if your goal is to make Charedim into non-charedim, then this won't work, for obvious reasons.
Charedim, by the way, suspect that the goal is to make them non-charedim. Do you think they're right?
Having a nice conversation with yourself?
"Anything short of drafting charedim will not solve the problem."
You are aware that the IDF drafts *everyone*, right?
"Anything short of drafting charedim will not solve the problem." I disagree. I think my suggestion can alleviate, if not quite solve, the problem. It would take time but any good solution would have to do that.
The Draft-the-Chareidim seekers are a classic case of the perfect being the enemy of the good.
But aren't we all Draft-the-Charedim seekers? If not, what exactly are we complaining about?
I'm not complaining about anything.
I've seen something floated to integrate Hatzalah into the Sheirut Leumi system; this idea seems like a more advanced form of that.
Yeah, I've wondered myself why Hatzalah service doesn't count toward Sheirut Leumi. My guess has been that it's not a full time gig for most.
Are you aware of something called "Magen David Adom"? Just wondering.
Also, are you aware of who serves in Sherut Leumi, and why?
Of course Ive heard of Magen David Adom.
No knowledge of how Sherut Leumi works.
Got it.
RNS has to have more not less analysis of chareidi failures to convince people who haven't even begun to see and appreciate how harmful many Chareidi beliefs and approaches are to themselves, to others and to the country. In addition how harmful it is to their spiritual self. RNS you are doing a great job. Keep it up.Thank you. We need need more like you.
I think you're being a bit too generous. The problem can basically be summed up in one point: Charedim don't accept anything that doesn't come from them. Hence, Zionism is pasul, and they've never made their peace with the existence of Israel. So why would they serve in its military?
Except for money. They rarely discriminate against money.
Goes without saying.
Or maybe they believe that sending their children to the IDF will make them more secular and they don't want to take that risk?
How nice that they get to take that option, while everyone else puts their nose to the grindstone to make sure Jews don't get killed.
More important to make sure jews don't become chiloni than get killed. Harsh truth, but sometimes truths need to be said.
Wow, you can post in one thread under two different names? Amazing!
To them, its more important that their children remain charedi even if they get killed.
I guess it is nice that they get that option.
Wouldn't it be much better if we just create a charedi army so that they don't have the option of sitting out the war?
Or do you really want them to specifically join the IDF so that they become non-charedi? (That's what they believe, by the way.)
Thank you again for “speaking truth to power”. Some of the comments above are …astounding. The arrogance that resulted from an ignorance of history is on full display. e.g……
I’m sure that 400 years ago, gdoilay sfarad wore bekeshes and fedoras😄
That military battle dress is arbitrary….
So much to know…..
Thanks again- and yes- keep it up until things change. It’s a difficult battle to shed light on אמת. That’s why we say יישר כוחך!
"We're from the government. We're here to help you."
I find it hilariously Ironic when some haredim claim that we RZs "worship the state". Ha. The only thing worse than the government is the mob.
The irony or paradox can be resolved by borrowing from the משל, but not the נמשל:
יָדַע שׁוֹר קֹנֵהוּ וַחֲמוֹר אֵבוּס בְּעָלָיו
Those Charedim do not relate to the State beyond the tropes and slogans (e.g. Uganda and "One Cow") I've listed so many times before. As such, participation in the gov't is not about aspiring for some lofty vision, messianic or not. It's simply to get one's fair share of the trough. And if it's an unfair share of the trough, that all the better (especially if the unfair portion was acquired "fairly".) They don't see a government, they see a trough.
You conflate the worship of the State with dependence on it. Once you separate the two, there's no irony.
And how do the non-chareidim relate to chareidim? Much less than tropes and slogans. Mostly just lies, like you see on this blog.
You've lost the plot. My comment was not about how non-charedim relate to charedim. Stay focused and don't get distracted.
You lost the plot. My comment *was* about how non-chareidim relate to chareidim. Please try to stay on point.
Jesus. What a waste of God given talent . Fighting a futile battle by preaching the to already converted instead of an op Ed in the NYT explaining Israel’s side. We all know what the road to hell is paved with. Rabbi, good points, we heard you the first time and the thousandth time . Are you helping to war effort or increasing your resentment by feeding it?
For the thousandth time, I disagree that my posts serve no purpose, and I've explained why. If you continue to post the identical comment, I will ban you.
I've come to the following conclusion. As someone who generally identifies with the chareidi community, I am admittedly biased to think your anti-chareidi posts are doing more damage than good for our nation. I can admit that there may be a net benefit to your posts even though I disagree and I will no longer ask you to stop because I recognize I am incapable of making a proper assessment (I'm not Charles btw).
I think it's more than fair, though, to assume that you are equally biased and are not in a good position to make this calculation on your own whether you are doing more good than damage.
Therefore, in the spirit of the yamin noraim and aseres yemei tshuva I beg of you to please consult with someone wise whom you respect who can give you unbiased advice - if you haven't already (if you have, just let us know and I will move on) - whether it is proper or not to continue this mission of yours.
I imagine you can figure out on your own just how terrible it would be for you if you are on the wrong side of this calculation, so please do this for yourself and all of us.
Shana tova
I paid , but ban away. I’m not arguing that your posts serve no purpose. I don’t know. If you can get more people into the army , good. What I’m saying is there is obvious talent here and such a clear voice is needed in public advocacy and there is only so much Rabbi Slifkin to go around . Yes you have the reach to write op Ed’s for American papers. If not the Times there are a thousand outlets . And I bet there are people to help you place stuff . I have a couple connections myself. And from there you could get interviewed , if not CNN in local TV . Outlets are starving for original content . I’m Hayom yom it quotes the Rashab as saying that ( in the context of learning ) that someone capable of dealing in precious stones should not be working in semiprecious stones. At a minimum , comment on an article in the Times . No one can say what you can . There’s a war on
"Jesus. What a waste of God given talent ."
Careful what you write, it can be taken out of context.
What do you mean? Jesus WAS a waste of God-given talent.
I have to echo the disbelief that you'd begin such a self-righteous post with "Jesus." I mean, lots of us raised in Christian countries may blurt it out at times, but to *write* it? Is this is a joke, or are you?
Keep it classy.
Wow, imagine if you did something productive with your time.
Reb Pseudonym, does your rosh yeshiva know you are invoking false gods?
Does R. Slifkin even have the reach to write an op-ed in NYT?
Shana tova. I think your recipe is perfect. I just fear that it will take far too long to cook.
I don't think that working with Hatzala is equivalent to be on the front lines in Gaza, or Beirut. It is definitely not right that one section of society has to be in combat, while others are exempt, especiaally when I am sure that some in the Yeshivas do NOT learn very diligently.
"the ultimate horrible root in charedi society for behaviour that ultimately cannot be described as anything other than evil." Natan you used to be a good friend and you used to be rational but there's nothing rational about this sick hatred of charedi society. The behavior is not evil, it is not the road to hell, it is based primarily on the need to save the Torah world - at least that explains the rationale until about 1990. After that it was based upon the response to attempts to create a charedi unit- dubbed Nachal Charedi- which was basically a stepping stone for those who didn't want to remain charedi or wanted to become secular. There was almost nobody who went in charedi and came out of the army with the same level of yirat shamayim. I know this firsthand I saw it when I served in the 90s. True the yeshivot hesder continue to produce fine yerei shamayim who knew how to handle the secularism as they had been inured to it throughout their education, but there is no way a regular charedi could handle the culture shock of a totally secular-based army (with lip service to halachic requirements except when they want everyone to hear females singing...). That is why Rabbi Leibel's demands -which should have been recognized by the army 20 years ago - are only now beginning to be implemented.
Now stop calling the charedim "evil". They are not evil, maybe stubborn about wanting to maintain their lifestyle and being unimpressed by the IDF's attempts to accomodate that lifestyle. The army is as much to blame as they are for their lack of conscription- IT DIDNT WANT THEM- at least until Oct. 7th
Great piece, spot on. Chareidim are in a completely different world than then the rest of Israel, so the war doesn't affect them nearly as much emotionally. Interestingly, the American yeshiva world is much more aware and involved in the Gaza War, all the while thinking they are just like Israeli Chareidim!
I agree 100%. But I thought I had read a few months ago that the IDF was making plans to incorporate the charedi. Am I wrong?
They made plans a long time ago. The charedim refused to go along with them.
Because the charedim will never, ever join the IDF. See www.vayakhel.com for the reason. (And it has nothing to do with Torah.)
Oh, you have another sockpuppet. Nice.
A Few smaller changes in the IDF environment to accommodate Charedim, could be a more realistic fix. Basically, show respect for their values, uphold the highest and strictest religious requirements, provide time for serious sedarim where possible, along with top Maggidei Shiur. And voilà! you don't need to wait for a fantastical solution to appear. Granted, these units will be less efficient when viewed from a strictly logistical perspective, but they will provide more than enough service to make a concrete contribution.
PS- Uniforms can include the familiar black and white dress with black hats that look just like rabbit felt. Black jackets in the code that are cammo green when reversed inside out. Canvas bekishes for Chassidim with an IDF gartel. Yiddish-speaking army bases with a mikvah. Just a few innovations, and the major political problems are resolved.
Most Israeli charedim don't speak Yiddish.
It seems that you may have misunderstood my intention. There should be not one, but many different Charedi units; each one can be geared for another specific group. The Yiddish-speaking army bases were meant for those groups within the Charedi world who would be well-served by such an environment. The Charedi world is actually comprised of many individual sects.
Thank you for giving me the chance to explain myself.
You do know, I hope, that every charedi in Israel speaks Hebrew.
I am in favor of making people want to serve. For the Yiddish-speaking crowd this will make them more comfortable. That will also equal greater productivity and better communication within the group.
If that isn't enough for you, think of the confusion Hamas will encounter when they eavesdrop on these communications. Sinwar and many Arabs are fluent in Hebrew, but Yiddish? Not really. It is an extra layer of security which can make a critical difference. But that is beside the point; it's just an added bonus for being accommodating.
OK, now you're just being silly.
I think you ought to read this--
https://www.ijn.com/idf-enlist-haredi-shlav-bet/
The Shlav bet is not relevant, as it's only intended for older people, those already exempted for different reasons.
The IDF has tried to accommodate charedim in the past many times, it's not working. So if love won't make it, the answer should be obvious to any normal, self preserving state.
What's the obvious answer, pray tell? Stop funding yeshivas? Start sending draft notices? Oh, wait...
"The IDF has tried..."
I have never seen a brochure advertising an IDF unit that respects the needs of (strictly religious)[edit: ultra-orthodox] people. The "love" you refer to may be genuine, but it is gravely uninformed. Kind of like when your friends invite you to come to a baseball game and bought you a ticket, but you absolutely hate going to baseball games.
What I am suggesting is speaking to Charedi Roshei Yeshivos and figuring out how to *really* accommodate them. This may come at some cost in numerous areas to the army, but is worth the compromise.
Others may argue it isn't worth it; here's what they might have overlooked: While much of the battlefield has remained the same, there are critical changes developing. The proliferation of drones and robotics in combat has created a secondary need for soldiers to remotely control these gadgets. Soldiers who are trained for this type of warfare must watch cameras and develop a different set of skills. The training and application of these skills are more compatible with the accommodations we would be looking at.
Hopefully someone other than me will realize this, and something will change!
"Never seen a brochure"? Are you serious? You want *brochures*? What is this, summer camp?
You are not addressing the issue. Does it really make a difference if I want it in a brochure, or some other form of media?
Your tone is also averse to new ideas, because- let it be marketed like a summer camp...
Great idea!
Except it's not a summer camp.
My sons are thankfully home right now, but the stories they told us are nothing like summer camp. We have friends whose sons were killed and others who were injured and will never be the same. Many are back in Gaza or the north for the 3rd or 4th time. One married late, and would love to start a family, but seems to have been away from home too much for that to happen right now.
I am in favor of accommodating Hareidi halachik requirements, and there are many army jobs that involve computers and screen time (and these are assigned on an individual basis based on the soldier's ability, and the army's needs), but a system in which every able bodied Hareidi soldier is tracked straight to a non-combat role is not exactly sharing the burden
Did that cause them to join the IDF?
Sometimes truths have to be said.
Sometimes we have to let off some steam.
FTFY
It's "FIFY". And no, you didn't.