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Nachum's avatar

Some people are scared of the word "Zionist," some of them so scared they won't self-apply it even when accurate.

Look, "Zionist" has meant many things over the years. I'll give you an example: In the early days of the Zionist movement, a certain number of seats on the the Zionist Organization were reserved for "non-Zionists." Now, that sounds weird...until you realize that "Zionist" meant someone really devoted to the movement, someone who spent all of his spare time on it, was a formal member of the movement (or a party within it), etc. Say, Weizmann or Jabotinsky or Bar-Ilan. A "non-Zionist" was probably *just as supportive* of the goals of Zionism as the former group- but not in a formal, "member," sense. Say, the Rothschilds or even R' Revel in New York or maybe even R' Kook.

Obviously none of that is true anymore, and ceased to be true in around, oh, 1948. Being a "Zionist" obviously no longer meant you were trying to *create* a Jewish State; it now meant that you *supported* it. So *all* those people became "Zionists." (I imagine the presence of anti-Zionists, both left and charedi, also helped here, but I don't think it was a major factor. The existence of Israel was.) This explains various things, like how we're told R' Soloveitchik wasn't a "Zionist" before he actually joined Mizrachi (or how R' Kook supposedly wasn't a Zionist at all), or how charedim still refer to non-charedim as "Mizrachi" when Mizrachi hasn't really existed for about seventy years, or how Ben Hecht is gleefully quoted as attacking "Zionists" when he's really mostly attacking the Labor Party.

In most countries of the world, we'd just say "patriot." The thing about Israel is (to quote Hecht), it has millions of ambassadors around the world. That is, you can't exactly be a French patriot if you're not French. But you can be a Zionist without living in Israel- heck, you don't even have to be Jewish. (Again, the presence of actual anti-Zionists probably helps here, but again I don't think it's the main point.)

So yeah, a lot of charedim- especially those living in the US- have to have it broken to them gently that, like it or not, they're Zionists. Oh, they can quibble over details, but they are. It's just that the movement is (in its modern form) about 160 years old, which means it has a lot of baggage. So it might take a while.

*Israeli* charedim, on the other hand, will really have to have things fed to them. "Your wife just gave birth? Mazal tov! Where? Hadassah? Nice! Did she get treated well there? Are you grateful to them for your new child? Do you know what *Hadassah* is? Starts with a tzadi, ends with a yud." And then you can get more and more basic. "Oh, this sidewalk we're walking on? Zionist."

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Shaul Shapira's avatar

"It makes no difference whether it is the beginning of the Messianic process or not. There are seven million Jews here whose lives need supporting and defending, including over a million charedim, and the IDF has a manpower shortage."

This sentence points up your own incoherence. If you're concerned with a manpower shortage, we can discuss that. It isn't due to the fact that charedim don't serve, nor would it have been averted if they did. The IDF implemented drastic cuts years ago. In 2015. You can read about it here:

https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001316194

3. תר"ש גדעון הביא לאחד המשברים הקשים ביותר שחווה צה"ל בכוח אדם:

● משבר קשה בקרב הנגדים המחזיקים את הציוד, אמצעי הלחימה והרק"ם במחסני החירום - שם נמצאים רוב אמצעי הלחימה של צה"ל. הוותיקים קוצצו בהמוניהם כדי לחסוך בעלות והצעירים מצביעים ברגליים ואינם רוצים להיות נגדים בימ"חים. הדור הוותיק שהעביר את הידע המקצועי הולך ונעלם, ואין צעירים שתופסים את מקומו. כך, כל היכולת המקצועית הולכת ונעלמת.

"But you can disagree with all of that (though then you’d have to explain what the millions of Jews facing slaughter in Europe should have done instead), and it makes little difference to the need to support and defend Israel today."

True. Also, you can disagree with charedim, think they're a bunch of hypocritical leeches, etc etc and not keep on whining about how they don't serve in the IDF.

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