Indeed, why can't they? And why can't they be combat soldiers? Plenty of chareidim fought in the War of Independence, despite not playing basketball in college.
Was thinking this while reading. Also, the army is usually able to accommodate kashrut needs, for those who have kashrut needs beyond the chalak harabbanut, which is what the IDF offers anyway.
He misquoted Paley. He wasn't talking about the military, he was talking about sherut leumi, which are just make socialist work programs for people who don't serve in the military.
-And always, I was trying to explain to my friend, “That’s really humiliating, because if you are telling Haredim, ‘Listen, we need you. We need you, because we need you to save our own lives,’ so that’s a conversation that for sure we have to respond.” But you’re saying the following, “We don’t really need you, the security, but we don’t know what you’re doing there in yeshivas. I don’t know. You’re reciting Tehillim, whether you’re dancing the entire day, so at least let’s do something meaningful.” I have nothing against national service. It’s great, whoever does it, and I appreciate. I really appreciate. You see great young, especially with the Dati Leumi. You see girls who are doing an amazing work, but to come to the Torah world and to say, “We don’t need you for the security, but do something to serve the nation,” it’s humiliating.
David Bashevkin:
It’s humiliating to the Haredi world, because in their mind and self-conception, they’re already doing national service. Their national service is studying Torah and preserving the Jewish character of the state of Israel.
Eli Paley:
And much more.
David Bashevkin:
Correct.
Eli Paley:
And much modern national service. Why we’re doing it? We’re not going to make anything for living. We’re not going to college. We’re really sacrificing something meaningful, because we believe that this is our mission. So you’re telling us, “I don’t know what you’re doing, guys, but please go to Yad Sarah. Help some elderly people to walk the street.” Again, not because it’s not good to do, but to ask a yeshiva bochur to close his Gemara and to go to do national service.
David Bashevkin:
It’s a misunderstanding of what he’s doing while the Gemara is open.
The idea that being anything other than a “combat soldier” is not worthwhile or necessary b/c it is not “prestigious” is woefully misguided.
Everyone needs to do his part. And for chareidim, doing their part should include learning Torah diligently during their spare time (like dati l’umi soldiers) and before and after their army service (like dati l’umi soldiers).
" And it’s presented by charedim to argue that..."
That because when it comes to such debates, a single source is taken at face value, and then hyper-extrapolated beyond face value. It doesn't matter that the source may be actually accurate. You just can't make sweeping conclusions from one data point.
So the IDF can repeatedly assert they need more soldiers. Reserve soldiers are being called to extra duty. Yeshiva students in ד"ל frameworks are being pulled away from their studies, and such policies are defended by UTJ.
But one single anecdote proves the whole thing is a lie and a plot?
What's shocking is that such stupidity is coming from people who spent so much of their lives in the בית מדרש sharpening their minds. I find it highly distressing and disappointing.
Wow, what a joke! All day long the Torah hating anti-chareidim scream about how there's a manpower shortage, and existential war, and participation by charedim are absolutely necessary. And then when 4000 of them actually show up, they dismiss over 75% because of "medical reasons". Does anybody actually believe such stupidity? As unintelligent as Slifkin is, I have a hard time believing that he actually believes it. "Medical reasons" is obviously just a euphemism for "over the age of 26"- the army doesn't want to have to deal with them. In the War of Independence, plenty of older chareidim fought. If this is a real existential war, they couldn't afford to be so picky. But obviously, this just confirms what we have been saying all along- that the whole crusade against chareidim is political about hatred of the Torah and Judaism. Thanks for bringing this to everybody's attention!
Incredible how you managed to completely miss the point of the post.
Yes, being over 26 is very likely also a factor, especially when someone is starting from scratch.
They can "afford" to be so picky because it's easier for the army just to make everyone else work harder.
The campaign against charedim is by those who recognize that it is wrong to make everyone else have to take even more time away from their families and jobs and learning.
Nothing to do with hatred of Torah and Judaism, no matter how many times you shout it and try to make yourself into a martyr.
How dumb can you be? If the army can afford to be just do the "easier" thing by making everybody else work harder, that means there is no urgent manpower shortage. A company with a shortage of workers has to hire more workers. It doesn't have an option of "doing the easier thing" by making its workers work harder, even promising to pay them more. That's what it does when it doesn't have a desperate shortage.
The camparign against chareidim is by those, like yourself, who have burning hatred for the Torah and all it represents.
Uh, yes, sometimes companies will increase the hours of employment of their workers because that's easier than finding new workers.
And that's exactly what has been happening these past eight months. That's why my nieces, each mothers of several children, have had their husbands away for most of the past eight months.
That's why a work neighbor of mine had his business destroyed.
That's why hesder yeshiva students have not been able to return to their learning.
And that's why even plenty of rabbis and roshei yeshiva, most certainly not "haters of Torah" as per your disgusting motzi shem ra (I guess you're a Hater of Rabbis), want the charedim to draft.
"And the IDF would accept 30 year olds in place of 18 year olds. So all this talk about "destroying the yeshivos" is nonsense."
Slifkin today: Actually, never mind what I said two days ago. I was just lying- the IDF would not accept them, and that's a good thing, because that's easier for the IDF, and during a desperate manpower shortage, it's all about what's easier. And all the suffering is the chareidim's fault for not signing up!
Uh, no. That's not what companies do when there is an urgent need of new workers just because "it's easier". That's what imminently failing companies do. Normal companies hire more workers.
All of those things you mentioned happened not because chareidim didn't sign up (4000 did, and doubtless thousands more would have followed if the army actually took them), but because it was "easier" for the army to not take them. What utter baloney. What utter stupidity. How gullible can anybody be to accept this?
The conclusion is that the anti-chareidi campaign is being carried out by disgusting haters of Torah and anti-Semites like yourself.
You don't get it. You're denying the factual reality of the last eight months. Hundreds of thousands of non-charedim have had to leave their learning and jobs and families. That burden should be shared equally among society. That has nothing to do with hating Torah, and that's why even rabbis and roshei yeshiva are advocating for it.
(The army needs people who go through proper army training and service. 30-year-olds might be a social compromise that is better than nothing, but it's certainly not what the army needs in order to be able to spread the burden of service and reserve duty equally across society.)
The conclusion is that you are a disgusting hater of these rabbis and roshei yeshiva and Torah, along with being a thoroughly selfish person who can't even understand that he is thoroughly selfish. As Moshe Rabbeinu said, people like you have sinned both to Hashem and to Am Yisrael.
You don't get it. You have admitted that the entire reason why the IDF doesn't want the chareidim is because "it's easier". If you really are so desperate and *nevertheless* you reject chareidi recruits, that's even worse. It shows how IMMENSE your hatred of Torah is, that you will even shoot yourself in the foot to spite the community of the Torah scholars.
The conclusion is that you are a thoroughly foul and vile enemy of the Torah and Hashem, along with being a murderous person who would kill his mother for profit. As Hashem told all his neviim, it is people like you who are the reason why the Bais Hamikdash was destroyed.
With respect, what do you know about what companies do?
I can tell you firsthand that when a hospital does not have enough doctors, the existing doctors have to put in longer hours, work more “shifts”, take more call, etc.
And the solution is not to simply hire lots more unqualified doctors…
With respect, what do you know about what I know? A soldier does not need to go to medical school. There are plenty of ways 30 yr olds can assist the army, both combat and non. If the situation is truly a desperate crisis, you can't afford to be so picky. And even with doctors when there is a nation wide shortage, most of the conversation is about supplementing them with non doctors https://www.myamericannurse.com/primary-care-shortages-and-the-role-of-family-nurse-practitioners/
The army would be negligent to take anyone not physically fit. How would you like to be in combat only to find that someone else on your team you're all counting on is not capable of keeping up? Medical reasons means they can't be counted on and would therefore weaken the army and endanger others. This makes perfect sense to me.
We are not talking about taking them into elite commando units. There are hundreds of roles both combat and non-combat, that 30 yr olds can do. This is perfectly normal during a war. The IDF has called up thousands of 30 yr olds in this very war. Desperate times call for desperate measures... But Slifkin claims it's "easier" for to not deal with these chareidim. This doesn't sound like desperation. The primary anti-chareidi campaign has nothing to do with desperate times, but is political opportunism.
צבא היבשה בצה״ל – כוח אדם והסָדַ"כּ (סדר הכוחות) בו – צומצם בשנים האחרונות לממדים שאינם מאפשרים עוד לצבא להתמודד עם שתי זירות בו-זמנית, אף שבמלחמה הבאה יעמדו מולו ארבע זירות: חמאס בעזה, חיזבאללה בלבנון, עשרות אלפי לוחמי תנזים חמושים ביהודה ושומרון, ובעוד שנתיים – גם צבא סוריה, שיהיה האיום המרכזי בגבולנו הצפוני.
אחרי הקיצוצים הבלתי אחראיים, שנבעו בין השאר מהיעדר תפיסת ביטחון וראיית הנולד, נותר צבא יבשה קטן, כשחלקו הארי הוא צבא המילואים. רובו של צבא זה אינו כשיר למלחמה בעטיים של היעדר אימונים, אחזקה ירודה של אמצעי הלחימה במחסני החירום, פיטורי אלפי אנשי קבע, קיצור שירות הבנים בתוכנית הרב-שנתית ׳גדעון׳ בימי הרמטכ״ל גדי איזנקוט ואובדן היכולת המקצועית של החיילים והמפקדים, בעיקר במערך המילואים.
Even if you think charedim are shirkers, it's reprehensible to claim that they're the in some way the cause of the current strain.
What exactly is the point of the post? It is predicated on "even if we assume that the report is valid". OK - so let's assume it is valid - What do you suggest? Do you you think the gov't should go ahead and draft 100,000 charedim in order to accept 13%. And to do that even if it means mass protests, mass incarceration and possible/probable toppling of the gov't? Saying its all their fault because they neglect their health or whatever doesn't solve the problem. Even in your fantasy dreamland where all charedim become educated and more focused on health and fitness (i.e. become more MO), this cannot happen overnight so it will not solve the immediate problem. So again, what is your solution to the problem.
I don't think it's hatred and I think you have a real point. But I also think you don't appreciate the value of torah like a chareidi and so, to you, the solution is simple.
How much poison is there in you? "Torah hater"?? How many people who were expelled from their homes and cannot return because there are not enough soldiers do you personally know? How many soldiers who have been fighting for 8 months do you know personally?? To accuse Jews as a group of such poison! You must know 99% of them personally! And you don't know...
"And then when 4000 of them actually show up, they dismiss over 75% because of "medical reasons". Does anybody actually believe such stupidity? "
1) They did accept 25%.
2) Israel suffers from a doctor shortage. Do you want medical schools to accept all applicants? Do you want hospitals/clinics to hire anyone with a MD and reject basic standards?
The high rejection rate is no proof that there's no manpower shortage. But it could be evidence of a manpower shortage!
No. It's a example to illustrate. All fields of endeavor have standards. Those who fail to meet the standard are rejected. Rejections are no evidence of lack of shortage.
Rejections are only evidence that there's no shortage if the people rejected meet the standard.
If you are rejecting 75% of people from any military jobs, that is clearly evidence that there is no shortage. When there is a shortage, even if you have such ridiculous standards, you are willing to lower them. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Unless the entire anti-chareidi push is for political reasons, which is the obvious conclusion.
"If you are rejecting 75% of people from any military jobs, that is clearly evidence that there is no shortage."
Every job has a minimal level of skill and ability required. Would it be unreasonable to accept a recruit who can't run a quarter kilometer carrying several kilos of military gear in five minutes?
Yes I am. Medical school has standards, and so does the army.
You are not discussing the issue honestly. You yourself have confirmed in your other comment that the army is lacking manpower. So you know that the rejection of 75% of those recruits is not necessarily evidence of sufficient manpower. So why the hysterics (or cap-lock failure)?
"MILCHEMET MITZVAH ISN'T AT ALL..."
Explain the relevancy of this statement to IDF recruitment policy and how such policy belies the claims of a manpower shortage- a claim you yourself have confirmed.
I mostly am. I throw in a cynical remark occasionally- mostly out of frustration with the crass demonization which Dr Slifkin and many of his lackeys regularly engage in.
"You yourself have confirmed in your other comment that the army is lacking manpower. "
I did no such thing. A manpower shortage is different than a strain. The former would mean there aren't enough soldiers to effectively prosecute the war. The latter means that there are sufficient soldiers, but they're overworked.
Note how the terms you use "strain" and "overworked" appear in the context of a manpower shortage.
But don't obsess over the example I provided. Rather defend your bizarre חילוק as follows:
1) Explain how it's possible to have staff overworked, but not due to a manpower shortage. Assume they are actually doing useful and necessary tasks.... Overworked means working beyond normal capacity. That means there's more work to be done than normal capacity can handle. That means normal capacity is insufficient. That means there's a lack of normal capacity. That means there's a shortage of normal capacity. Hence: Manpower shortage.
2) Please cite examples in which staff is overworked, but there is no manpower shortage whatsoever.
The answer is that when you have an army which is made up largely of reservists, and your entire military doctrine assumes that those reservists can be pressed into service for a few days and then go back to their regular non-military life, and on the basis of that doctrine you then go and shrink the amount of active duty service members, and then you have an 8+ month long hot war, you're left with enough reservists to get the job done, but those reservists are strained.
You can’t jump into the army at 26 and expect to be fully integrated. Religious and secular boys start Machanayim at 15. Training running. Getting a taste of army. And when they are 18 they are ready to be molded into soldiers. An 18 year old chareidi can be blown over by a blast of wind. They are a group don’t exercise don’t enough general physical activity. Many eat unhealthily. And they have no conception of Army Discipline.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. You don't need "fully integrated" according to some arbitrary standard which only applies when you are not shrieking about a desperate manpower shortage. During the War of Independence, Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky served without having gone through machanyim at 15.
There is a universe of difference between 1948 where all you needed to do was learn to operate a Sten gun and 2023 where technology and enhanced discipline are required.
Israel is unable to return 100,000 residents in the north who were expelled from their homes and jobs, because there are not enough soldiers to attack and defend at the same time against Iran, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Yemen, the Palestinian Authority, Gaza, and who knows who else.
Each soldier learns his military profession for months. This is true for a combat soldier and a combat support soldier as well.
That's why the training and professional bases of the IDF need to be increased. At this stage there is not enough staff capable of absorbing large amounts of new soldiers, because everyone who is capable of fighting or supporting fighters is at war.
The result is that if Haredim are mobilized in large numbers, it will be gradually and certainly only after the current war.
So anyone who shouts "the state does not want ultra-Orthodox in the army" and the proof that thousands who came to enlist were not accepted, so, assuming that these are people of conscription age and suitable data to serve in the army, this shouter either does not know what it is about or is completely evil.
I have read the previous comments. It seems to me that people are speaking about the Haredim as a monolith. While their voting may represent them as a monolith, in their personal habits, etc, they certainly do not seem to be. Haredi boys do engage in sports, ride bicycles, go swimming, etc. No you will not see young Haredi men standing on the street in front of the Mirer Yeshiva kicking footballs. The Haredi community will change. Isolation from the culture at large is impossible in this day and age.
As long as they realize they are generalizing. However, generalizing is not a good practice without saying you are generalizing and where you're getting your information from. Generalizing leads to false, and often not very nice conclusions. BTW my Haredi children and grandchildren all have beautiful teeth, and my grandson-in-law is currently serving in the IDF and the family are all very proud of him as am I.
I've heard people say that almost the entire country agrees that Haredim should be drafted into the army, the only people who disagree are the Haredim and the Army.
The fact that Haredim are less careful about healthcare is tragic, and the Ministry of Health (which until recently has a Haredi minister), should find ways to educate all sectors of society about basic healthcare, and make sure that facilities are available to all communities. I wonder if there are statistics about life expectancy and hospitalization rate of the Haredi community compared to other segments of Israeli society.
The fact that yeshivot actively discourage physical activity is a reflection of their values. As much as I think that physical exercise is one of many things essential for healthy development, I don't think that it would be reasonable for the government to insist that Haredi society change their value system so that their kids have regular sports classes so that they can enlist in the army.
However, I think that the army could and should develop new roles specifically for the Haredi community.
In addition to existing roles for explicitly for religious soldiers (Rabbis, mishgachi kashrut, mashak dat, etc) they could develop additional roles for Haredi soldiers.
For example, the army owns thousands (maybe even tens of thousands) of sifrei Torah and Megillot, as well as hundreds of thousands of mezuzot and sets of Tfilin.
Instead of paying sofrim from the private sector to maintain these items, they could train a unit of Sofrim who serve on a all-Haredi army base and a responsible for maintenance of religious items owned by the army.
They could also maintain a bookbinery and/or printing press to keep the army supplied with Tanachot, Chumashim, Siddurim, Machzorim, etc.
>"I wonder if there are statistics about life expectancy and hospitalization rate of the Haredi community compared to other segments of Israeli society."
There are such numbers, and chareidim famously have quite long lifespans. Don't know about hospitalizations/disease. I'd be interested in seeing hard sources for the claim in this post of higher rates of those diseases. I wouldn't be surprised one way or another. For example, charedim, and religious people in general, have much lower smoking rates, especially the women, but I believe the men as well.
>"In addition to existing roles for explicitly for religious soldiers (Rabbis, mishgachi kashrut, mashak dat, etc) they could develop additional roles for Haredi soldiers.
For example, the army owns thousands (maybe even tens of thousands) of sifrei Torah and Megillot, as well as hundreds of thousands of mezuzot and sets of Tfilin."
The last thing we need is yet another entrenched entitlement make-work program for chareidim. The better option is useful non-combat roles, as another commenter mentioned.
Tell that to all the charedi women who have a late diagnosis of breast or uterine cancer because such things aren’t discussed or taught to them in schools….
Is there any kind of source or real indication that this issue is significantly worse for charedi women? Again, I'm far from being an apologist for chareidim, I strongly disagree with their lifestyle and worldview, but I'm interested in data
1) that source says "Orthodox", not "ultra-Orthodox"/"Charedi". Likely it's also/only dati people.
2) it doesn't say they "have a late diagnosis", it's self-reported "perceived effectiveness"
3) it doesn't say that "such things aren’t discussed or taught to them in schools", it says that there are issues of "fear, fatalism, and perceived effectiveness" and "perceived themselves at low cancer risk because of their religious lifestyle and religious belief system".
>" In a study examining attitudes and beliefs associated with screening and mammography among different demographic groups in Israel, Baron-Epel [9] found that fear, fatalism, and perceived effectiveness were associated with the logistic, technical and personal barriers to screening for Orthodox Jewish women. Freund et al. [11] found that Orthodox Jewish women in Israel perceived themselves at low cancer risk because of their religious lifestyle and religious belief system. In addition, some women in this study indicated that seeking medical attention may demonstrate a lack of faith in God and that illness was a direct message from God for the entire community."
Per the article referenced by Rabbi Slifkin... "...Ultra-Orthodox men, however, according to survey data, smoke at approximately the same rate as men in the general population (approximately 30%; Rosen, 2009)."
(full disclosure: I was a pipe smoker for many years; I gave it up 30+ years ago; not due to health concerns, just didn't enjoy it any longer)
Thanks. So I stand corrected re smoking rates for charedi men (it's same as for general population, as stated there). Would be interested in seeing sources re disease/hospitalizations
This entire piece is incoherent and contradictory. You begin with: “The army most certainly needs more manpower…to meet the increased requirements …and also to be able to reduce the amount of time for which reservists need to serve by spreading it among more people.” And yet when confronting the evidence that drafting Charedim, as is, will not solve these problems, you claim that the only answer is “that charedi society has a responsibility to change such that they can share the responsibility of national defense…If they aren’t willing to do that, then maybe they should look into the viability of moving to a country which doesn’t have such needs.” And yet you still maintain that “There’s no getting around the importance of shared responsibility.” As if leaving the country would help that.
Make up your mind. Do you want to draft charedim as Charedim, or do you want to change them into non-charedim first? Or do you want them to just disappear? If you are conceding that drafting Charedim, as is, won’t work and won’t solve the problem, then what are you suggesting? Even if you could change them to be physically able to serve – that would take years and will not address your “emergency”.
I think you just revealed your true desire – to change Charedim into what you’ve become.
I admire your honest and courageous attitude towards some of the fundamental ideas of Torah Judaism & your self sacrifice and commitment to disseminating and implementing your views. I find your views to be accurate, free of bias and based upon compelling evidence and precise understanding and interpretation of the Torah sources that formulate your views.
Yasher Koach.
The recent report regarding drafting charedim states:
"From the 4000 requests, the IDF rejected 3,120 for a wide range of reasons- mainly “medical unsuitability”."
Please note that "medical unsuitability" is the main reason amongst a "wide range of reasons". Its not the only reason.
What exactly "medical unsuitability" means is certainly not clear.
We also dont know what we would find if we looked at the non charedi men who are SIMILARLY SITUATED, for example, same age range, same type of occupation, meaning people who have "desk jobs", researchers, writers, etc. What percentage of them would be found "medically unsuitable. We dont know how much a sedentary lifestyle contributes to being medically unsuitable. If you were to condemn ALL people who lead a sedentary lifestyle, you would be condemning many non charedim,
There may be valid reasons to blame charedim for not enlisting in the IDF. However , those 4,000 charedim who DID want to enlist should be applauded even if in fact the IDF did not need them, for WHATEVER reason.
Yrs, it is absolutely necessary and vital for the charedim to take better care of their health, by changing their lifestyle. It is criminal for their leaders to ignore this. They have blood on their hands.
"But if that’s the case, then it’s hardly a vindication of charedim! It would signify a deep flaw in charedi society if they make themselves so physically and/or temperamentally unsuited to army service, and so uninterested in figuring out a way to make it work, that everyone else has to instead increase the length of time that they spend in service and reserve duty."
Ya, these charedim aren't just selfish. They're morbidly obese, have diabetes, and all sorts of other comorbidities which led to them dying en masse during Covid. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/ten-times They must have exceedingly high mortality rates and are probably on the brink of extinction, right?
"I just heard from a physician who works in the charedi sector that the lack of appropriate medical care is appalling, and not because of the physicians - the population itself is just negligent. They named diabetes, heart disease, mental health issues, and dental abscesses as just some of the problems. And of course, charedi yeshivos do not do sports or any kind of physical exercise, and often even discourage such things. "
Maybe your Bnei-Brak-tologist physician friend should stick to caring for chayalim who deserve his care rather than helping breed all of these parasites.
(Of course there are still some old-fashioned people who cling to their belief in the Gemara Bava Basra that רבנן לא צריכי נטירותא ואני חומה זו תורה ושדי כמגדלות אלו תלמידי חכמים, but I guess we can leave that aside.)
Listen, if you would stick to the point that the Israeli government cannot continue to support Kollelim and even yeshivos especially during a time of war I probably can agree with, and perhaps so can some of the crazy self-appointed Haredi spokesmen commenting here.
But when you yourself can't make up your mind if you think drafting the Charedim today makes sense or not, and especially when you continue to ignore the fact that Charedim are essential for the future of עם ישראל, ארץ ישראל ומדינת ישראל you cannot expect intelligent people to take you seriously.
Ok, I guess we are pretty much on the same page then.
First off, I should note that I never said Charedim shouldn't serve. If you would go back and look at my previous comments here and at IM you would see that my position is much more complicated than that.
But the general point I think you are making is that ultimately this discussion boils down to a question of values and mindset. If you have an old-fashioned mindset, one in which a Zionist nation-state is of ultimate importance and Malthusian fears deeply concern you, if you agree with the OP that the only way to prevent the next Holocaust ch"v is through a state of forever wars ((32) Comments - The Core of the Conflict - by Natan Slifkin (rationalistjudaism.com)), where forever every citizen will need to serve in the army, and if you believe that a larger עם ישראל is inherently a threat to the existence of מדינת ישראל, unless we forcibly change the culture and religion of those additions to עם ישראל to conform with the above mindset, then you are certainly right.
However, if you believe that every addition to עם ישראל is precious, if you understand that not only has Malthus been proven wrong but the opposite has proven true, that וכבשוה only comes about through פרו ורבו ומלאו את הארץ, if you believe that through growing עם ישראל, and especially growing an עם ישראל with traditional religious values, we can dare to hope and plan for a brilliant future of a democracy for everyone, of a society with religious values in which Jews and Muslims cooperate beautifully, of a future where we don't have to be in a constant state of war, then obviously your perspective will change drastically.
No. I don't expect you to understand my perspective. I understand it is quite hard for a secular person to grasp the brilliant future of Charedi Judaism. But I can only give you a bracha that you or your children should merit to see the fulfillment of this vision במהרה בימינו אמן.
1. The way I see the economy of the future, with everything virtual and remote and with AI will work very well with Charedim. I see this happening in front of my eyes in Lakewood, that very successful people have so much more time to learn Torah now due to these developments.
To me these are just some examples of how Malthusian theory is proven wrong again and again and again. High fertility only stimulates more innovation and growth. Which leads to my next point.
2. I always find it ironic how secular people and the OP complain about the high Charedi birthrate, when not only is this essential for Israel, it is also essential for change to happen in Charedi society. The real changes that need to happen in Charedi society, such as a shattering of dynastic power, and attendance of college, will come about due to to the pressures of a highly fertile society, not the opposite. If the secular want Charedi society to change they should do whatever possible to ensure that they have very high fertility, while at the same time defunding the Kollelim and Yeshivos.
3. I do think the ideal would be for Charedim not to take any benefit at all from the מדינה, like the Neturei Karta. However, for that to happen there needs to be a full tax exemption not just for local Charedim, but for all money brought in by foreign Charedim. If Israel would cleanse their country from Charedim, as the OP suggests, I assume the foreign Charedim would cleanse themselves from Israel.
I discussed this before. I don't think I can fully cover this a blog comment but here goes.
I don't view the Charedim as batlanim. https://woodfromeden.substack.com/p/israels-forgotten-victim-card/comment/57670986 They adopted a policy of isolation. As they become the majority, they will slowly shed this isolation. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/shteiging-into-the-abyss/comment/22934646 I think this is already in the process of happening, as is clear from some famous comments from Reb Moshe Hillel Hirsh over the last months. I do agree that this is happening too slowly. This is why I wrote that I agree with stopping to fund Kollelim and even yeshivos. However, I feel that part of the blame for the slow process lies at the feet of venomous hatred-filled articles like the one above us, especially when they make it clear that they have no intention of making serious thoughtful policy decisions which will help Charedim transition gradually, but rather they wish to let out their blood-thirsty hatred and lust for revenge in any way imaginable.
If you wish to see what the future Charedi economy will look like, take a look at the Lakewood economy which has been progressing at a dizzying pace over the past 15 years, and will iy"H continue to do so. I don't think the Charedi education in Lakewood is much different than that in Eretz Yisroel. (And I have good reason to think that the Charedim in E"Y will learn to integrate more secular knowledge as needed, and as they have been doing in the girls school system for decades now. Probably the most important caveat is that it can't be forced down their throats, as they react very negatively to that.) The main difference is that in Lakewood they are not surrounded by masses of Charedi-haters as they are in Eretz Yisroel.
Considering that Charedim are less materialistic than secular society it is possible that a Charedi economy will be somewhat smaller than the current one. Perhaps this is a good thing as it may make it easier to get along with the Arabs. https://woodfromeden.substack.com/p/israels-forgotten-victim-card/comment/57140096 Even in the worst-case scenario I still think it will be better than the current state of low-fertility (yes, I know it is considered high for the modern world, but still) and perpetual wars.
Charedim also have the benefit of a low percentage of retirees, both because they are younger on average, and because it is less common (at least in my experience) for them to retire voluntarily.
Whatever happens, it is clear that one must keep in mind that Israel is fortuitous in having the most fertile society in the world in their midst, as demography is their greatest concern. They should be extremely careful not to kill the goose which is laying their golden egg. They should make it their top priority to help successful Charedim from abroad emigrate to Eretz Yisroel, and to help successful people in Eretz Yisroel become Charedim. This will have the double effect of growing their demographics and providing excellent role-models for Charedim to learn from.
And I must repeat again for the umpteenth time that I do not think Charedi society is perfect. Far from it. I think they have a lot to work on. However, I feel that they are the closest to an ideal society, as they are high fertility, hardworking and probably higher IQ than the average non-Jew. If we would have more people like Eli Paley who are actually working on helping Charedim change for the better, instead of just calling them the scum of the earth, the world would be a much better place.
Your argument is "Israel needs high charedi birthrates in order to annex the West Bank".
But that's not technically true. More precisely, Israel needs high birthrates in order to annex the West Bank *while remaining a democracy*. If (hypothetically) Israel were to give up on being a democracy, it could annex the West Bank right now with no problem.
And that's why high charedi birthrates don't necessarily help. Because charedim don't believe in democracy, they believe in following the dictates of the gedolim. If charedim become the majority, there won't be a democracy problem regarding Arabs, but there also won't be democracy in Israel to begin with.
Am I supposed to respond to this? It's basically like saying "if all the accusations in Mein Kampf are true then there is nothing wrong with Mein Kampf".
And no, I don't have the time to get into petty fights about things Charedim did, or something a Charedi once said. I think everyone commenting here agrees that Charedi society, like every society, has major flaws which it needs to work on. But that doesn't distract me from seeing the bigger picture.
I can also claim that Israel is interested in ethnic cleansing based on certain comments made by some Israelis (including the above post) and certain actions by individuals. But no, I don't believe that. I know how to look at the bigger picture.
The army forbids religious soldiers from growing beards, expresses concerns about soldiers following rabbinical guidance over military orders, and recently dismissed the official responsible for overseeing kashrut without appointing a replacement.
Naturally, a report commissioned by a Yesh Atik MK would be accepted without question as valid.
After all, chilonim make excellent soldiers – they are never negligent, especially regarding their health – they never have diabetes, heart disease, mental health issued and dental abscesses.
And they are certainly great sports fans – they watch hours of football and basketball on TV.
They are also burning with motivation, and their discipline is outstanding.
“Kashrut and suchlike...” ? Well, they don’t have such niggling requirements, and are willing to eat anything they set eyes on.
Their society is therefore perfect and has no deep flaws – they make sure to make themselves physically and temperamentally suited – as none have any debt to Israeli society, as it is their inalienable right to have their sports and entertainment funded by the rest of society.
And all this while being easily able to find a country which would welcome them with open arms and treat them as valued citizens.
No thanks - we have enough issues with chillul hashem created by certain groups already (chillul Hashem is not on the chareidi list of 'inyonim' to be makpid in, to become little Chazon Ish's or divorce the body from the soul or whatever)
Actually the only examples of chillul Hashem found in the gemoroh are of talmidei chachomim not doing the RIGHT thing, bein odom l'chaveiroh, because it looks dodgy to an observer. Kal v'chomer if its the wrong thing.
I don't know or care where your chareidi interpretation comes from.
Actually, they're explicitly linked, and one is indeed the opposite of the other.
See rambam, Mishneh Torah:
כל בית ישראל מצווין על קדוש השם הגדול הזה שנאמר ונקדשתי בתוך בני ישראל ומוזהרין שלא לחללו שנאמר ולא תחללו את שם קדשי
....
כל מי שנאמר בו יעבור ואל יהרג ונהרג ולא עבר הרי זה מתחייב בנפשו וכל מי שנאמר בו יהרג ואל יעבור ונהרג ולא עבר הרי זה קידש את השם ואם היה בעשרה מישראל הרי זה קידש את השם ברבים כדניאל חנניה מישאל ועזריה ורבי עקיבא וחביריו ואלו הן הרוגי מלכות שאין מעלה על מעלתן ועליהן נאמר כי עליך הורגנו כל היום נחשבנו כצאן טבחה ועליהם נאמר אספו לי חסידי כורתי בריתי עלי זבח וכל מי שנאמר בו יהרג ואל יעבור ועבר ולא נהרג הרי זה מחלל את השם ואם היה בעשרה מישראל הרי זה חילל את השם ברבים ובטל מצות עשה שהיא קידוש השם ועבר על מצות לא תעשה שהיא חלול השם
Please elaborate on the "mental health issues" and whether you are suggesting that the rates of it among Charedim are somehow higher than the general population?
not everyone in the army is a combat soldier. Why can't these charedim with a lower profile be cooks, drivers or many other tasks needed by the army
Indeed, why can't they? And why can't they be combat soldiers? Plenty of chareidim fought in the War of Independence, despite not playing basketball in college.
They went to college without playing basketball?
😂
Was thinking this while reading. Also, the army is usually able to accommodate kashrut needs, for those who have kashrut needs beyond the chalak harabbanut, which is what the IDF offers anyway.
See here for confirmation that the army does provide "mehadrin" solutions:
https://www.idf.il/%D7%90%D7%AA%D7%A8%D7%99-%D7%99%D7%97%D7%99%D7%93%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%9E%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%9A-%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%96%D7%95%D7%9F/%D7%9B%D7%9C-%D7%94%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%9B%D7%9C%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%97%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A7%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%A2%D7%9C-%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%9E%D7%94%D7%93%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9F/
That was back in 2018.
It's sad that he think that any zchusim are created by such selfish and arrogant shirking of responsibility.
He misquoted Paley. He wasn't talking about the military, he was talking about sherut leumi, which are just make socialist work programs for people who don't serve in the military.
https://18forty.org/podcast/eli-paley-whats-next-the-future-of-israels-haredi-community/
-And always, I was trying to explain to my friend, “That’s really humiliating, because if you are telling Haredim, ‘Listen, we need you. We need you, because we need you to save our own lives,’ so that’s a conversation that for sure we have to respond.” But you’re saying the following, “We don’t really need you, the security, but we don’t know what you’re doing there in yeshivas. I don’t know. You’re reciting Tehillim, whether you’re dancing the entire day, so at least let’s do something meaningful.” I have nothing against national service. It’s great, whoever does it, and I appreciate. I really appreciate. You see great young, especially with the Dati Leumi. You see girls who are doing an amazing work, but to come to the Torah world and to say, “We don’t need you for the security, but do something to serve the nation,” it’s humiliating.
David Bashevkin:
It’s humiliating to the Haredi world, because in their mind and self-conception, they’re already doing national service. Their national service is studying Torah and preserving the Jewish character of the state of Israel.
Eli Paley:
And much more.
David Bashevkin:
Correct.
Eli Paley:
And much modern national service. Why we’re doing it? We’re not going to make anything for living. We’re not going to college. We’re really sacrificing something meaningful, because we believe that this is our mission. So you’re telling us, “I don’t know what you’re doing, guys, but please go to Yad Sarah. Help some elderly people to walk the street.” Again, not because it’s not good to do, but to ask a yeshiva bochur to close his Gemara and to go to do national service.
David Bashevkin:
It’s a misunderstanding of what he’s doing while the Gemara is open.
"Whereas being a combat soldier has prestige and respect, anything other than that would be lessening of respect for learning. "
Heresy. Rav Aryeh Levin called them מלאכים, and RSZA called them קדושים.
And the גמרא has no problem respecting the scholar-soldier:
כשהיה יושב ועוסק בתורה היה מעדן עצמו כתולעת, ובשעה שיוצא למלחמה היה מקשה עצמו כעץ
I'm not sure you read his point correctly. Unless I'm misunderstanding it?
Agreed.
The idea that being anything other than a “combat soldier” is not worthwhile or necessary b/c it is not “prestigious” is woefully misguided.
Everyone needs to do his part. And for chareidim, doing their part should include learning Torah diligently during their spare time (like dati l’umi soldiers) and before and after their army service (like dati l’umi soldiers).
" And it’s presented by charedim to argue that..."
That because when it comes to such debates, a single source is taken at face value, and then hyper-extrapolated beyond face value. It doesn't matter that the source may be actually accurate. You just can't make sweeping conclusions from one data point.
So the IDF can repeatedly assert they need more soldiers. Reserve soldiers are being called to extra duty. Yeshiva students in ד"ל frameworks are being pulled away from their studies, and such policies are defended by UTJ.
But one single anecdote proves the whole thing is a lie and a plot?
What's shocking is that such stupidity is coming from people who spent so much of their lives in the בית מדרש sharpening their minds. I find it highly distressing and disappointing.
Wow, what a joke! All day long the Torah hating anti-chareidim scream about how there's a manpower shortage, and existential war, and participation by charedim are absolutely necessary. And then when 4000 of them actually show up, they dismiss over 75% because of "medical reasons". Does anybody actually believe such stupidity? As unintelligent as Slifkin is, I have a hard time believing that he actually believes it. "Medical reasons" is obviously just a euphemism for "over the age of 26"- the army doesn't want to have to deal with them. In the War of Independence, plenty of older chareidim fought. If this is a real existential war, they couldn't afford to be so picky. But obviously, this just confirms what we have been saying all along- that the whole crusade against chareidim is political about hatred of the Torah and Judaism. Thanks for bringing this to everybody's attention!
Incredible how you managed to completely miss the point of the post.
Yes, being over 26 is very likely also a factor, especially when someone is starting from scratch.
They can "afford" to be so picky because it's easier for the army just to make everyone else work harder.
The campaign against charedim is by those who recognize that it is wrong to make everyone else have to take even more time away from their families and jobs and learning.
Nothing to do with hatred of Torah and Judaism, no matter how many times you shout it and try to make yourself into a martyr.
How dumb can you be? If the army can afford to be just do the "easier" thing by making everybody else work harder, that means there is no urgent manpower shortage. A company with a shortage of workers has to hire more workers. It doesn't have an option of "doing the easier thing" by making its workers work harder, even promising to pay them more. That's what it does when it doesn't have a desperate shortage.
The camparign against chareidim is by those, like yourself, who have burning hatred for the Torah and all it represents.
Uh, yes, sometimes companies will increase the hours of employment of their workers because that's easier than finding new workers.
And that's exactly what has been happening these past eight months. That's why my nieces, each mothers of several children, have had their husbands away for most of the past eight months.
That's why a work neighbor of mine had his business destroyed.
That's why hesder yeshiva students have not been able to return to their learning.
And that's why even plenty of rabbis and roshei yeshiva, most certainly not "haters of Torah" as per your disgusting motzi shem ra (I guess you're a Hater of Rabbis), want the charedim to draft.
Slifkin two days ago
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/hamas-haredim-and-hayalim/comment/58160488
"And the IDF would accept 30 year olds in place of 18 year olds. So all this talk about "destroying the yeshivos" is nonsense."
Slifkin today: Actually, never mind what I said two days ago. I was just lying- the IDF would not accept them, and that's a good thing, because that's easier for the IDF, and during a desperate manpower shortage, it's all about what's easier. And all the suffering is the chareidim's fault for not signing up!
Uh, no. That's not what companies do when there is an urgent need of new workers just because "it's easier". That's what imminently failing companies do. Normal companies hire more workers.
All of those things you mentioned happened not because chareidim didn't sign up (4000 did, and doubtless thousands more would have followed if the army actually took them), but because it was "easier" for the army to not take them. What utter baloney. What utter stupidity. How gullible can anybody be to accept this?
The conclusion is that the anti-chareidi campaign is being carried out by disgusting haters of Torah and anti-Semites like yourself.
You don't get it. You're denying the factual reality of the last eight months. Hundreds of thousands of non-charedim have had to leave their learning and jobs and families. That burden should be shared equally among society. That has nothing to do with hating Torah, and that's why even rabbis and roshei yeshiva are advocating for it.
(The army needs people who go through proper army training and service. 30-year-olds might be a social compromise that is better than nothing, but it's certainly not what the army needs in order to be able to spread the burden of service and reserve duty equally across society.)
The conclusion is that you are a disgusting hater of these rabbis and roshei yeshiva and Torah, along with being a thoroughly selfish person who can't even understand that he is thoroughly selfish. As Moshe Rabbeinu said, people like you have sinned both to Hashem and to Am Yisrael.
You don't get it. You have admitted that the entire reason why the IDF doesn't want the chareidim is because "it's easier". If you really are so desperate and *nevertheless* you reject chareidi recruits, that's even worse. It shows how IMMENSE your hatred of Torah is, that you will even shoot yourself in the foot to spite the community of the Torah scholars.
The conclusion is that you are a thoroughly foul and vile enemy of the Torah and Hashem, along with being a murderous person who would kill his mother for profit. As Hashem told all his neviim, it is people like you who are the reason why the Bais Hamikdash was destroyed.
With respect, what do you know about what companies do?
I can tell you firsthand that when a hospital does not have enough doctors, the existing doctors have to put in longer hours, work more “shifts”, take more call, etc.
And the solution is not to simply hire lots more unqualified doctors…
With respect, what do you know about what I know? A soldier does not need to go to medical school. There are plenty of ways 30 yr olds can assist the army, both combat and non. If the situation is truly a desperate crisis, you can't afford to be so picky. And even with doctors when there is a nation wide shortage, most of the conversation is about supplementing them with non doctors https://www.myamericannurse.com/primary-care-shortages-and-the-role-of-family-nurse-practitioners/
The army would be negligent to take anyone not physically fit. How would you like to be in combat only to find that someone else on your team you're all counting on is not capable of keeping up? Medical reasons means they can't be counted on and would therefore weaken the army and endanger others. This makes perfect sense to me.
We are not talking about taking them into elite commando units. There are hundreds of roles both combat and non-combat, that 30 yr olds can do. This is perfectly normal during a war. The IDF has called up thousands of 30 yr olds in this very war. Desperate times call for desperate measures... But Slifkin claims it's "easier" for to not deal with these chareidim. This doesn't sound like desperation. The primary anti-chareidi campaign has nothing to do with desperate times, but is political opportunism.
"That's why my nieces, each mothers of several children, have had their husbands away for most of the past eight months."
It's not why. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-irrelevance-of-zionism/comment/55486211 Having an 8 month hot war is the reason why there's a strain.
Again, from 2020:
https://mida.org.il/2020/12/24/%D7%9E%D7%A6%D7%91%D7%95-%D7%94%D7%A2%D7%92%D7%95%D7%9D-%D7%A9%D7%9C-%D7%A6%D7%94%D7%B4%D7%9C-%D7%95%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A8-%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA%D7%95-%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9E/
צבא היבשה בצה״ל – כוח אדם והסָדַ"כּ (סדר הכוחות) בו – צומצם בשנים האחרונות לממדים שאינם מאפשרים עוד לצבא להתמודד עם שתי זירות בו-זמנית, אף שבמלחמה הבאה יעמדו מולו ארבע זירות: חמאס בעזה, חיזבאללה בלבנון, עשרות אלפי לוחמי תנזים חמושים ביהודה ושומרון, ובעוד שנתיים – גם צבא סוריה, שיהיה האיום המרכזי בגבולנו הצפוני.
אחרי הקיצוצים הבלתי אחראיים, שנבעו בין השאר מהיעדר תפיסת ביטחון וראיית הנולד, נותר צבא יבשה קטן, כשחלקו הארי הוא צבא המילואים. רובו של צבא זה אינו כשיר למלחמה בעטיים של היעדר אימונים, אחזקה ירודה של אמצעי הלחימה במחסני החירום, פיטורי אלפי אנשי קבע, קיצור שירות הבנים בתוכנית הרב-שנתית ׳גדעון׳ בימי הרמטכ״ל גדי איזנקוט ואובדן היכולת המקצועית של החיילים והמפקדים, בעיקר במערך המילואים.
Even if you think charedim are shirkers, it's reprehensible to claim that they're the in some way the cause of the current strain.
====
By the way, I don't really follow Israeli sports, but from the headlines it sure seems like there are whole bunch of able bodied athletes who could easily be pressed into service if things are really so dire. https://www.ynet.co.il/sport/israelibasketball/article/syh00frrva#autoplay
What exactly is the point of the post? It is predicated on "even if we assume that the report is valid". OK - so let's assume it is valid - What do you suggest? Do you you think the gov't should go ahead and draft 100,000 charedim in order to accept 13%. And to do that even if it means mass protests, mass incarceration and possible/probable toppling of the gov't? Saying its all their fault because they neglect their health or whatever doesn't solve the problem. Even in your fantasy dreamland where all charedim become educated and more focused on health and fitness (i.e. become more MO), this cannot happen overnight so it will not solve the immediate problem. So again, what is your solution to the problem.
I don't think it's hatred and I think you have a real point. But I also think you don't appreciate the value of torah like a chareidi and so, to you, the solution is simple.
How much poison is there in you? "Torah hater"?? How many people who were expelled from their homes and cannot return because there are not enough soldiers do you personally know? How many soldiers who have been fighting for 8 months do you know personally?? To accuse Jews as a group of such poison! You must know 99% of them personally! And you don't know...
Dont mind him. Hes just part of the עגלה ריקה crew club. Like the commenters on nearly all the frum websites
This Ephraim Efraim business is confusing. Are you two different people?
"And then when 4000 of them actually show up, they dismiss over 75% because of "medical reasons". Does anybody actually believe such stupidity? "
1) They did accept 25%.
2) Israel suffers from a doctor shortage. Do you want medical schools to accept all applicants? Do you want hospitals/clinics to hire anyone with a MD and reject basic standards?
The high rejection rate is no proof that there's no manpower shortage. But it could be evidence of a manpower shortage!
1) Wow. Real desperation when you reject 75%.
2) whataboutism
The only desperation here is for you guys to save face!
"whataboutism"
No. It's a example to illustrate. All fields of endeavor have standards. Those who fail to meet the standard are rejected. Rejections are no evidence of lack of shortage.
Rejections are only evidence that there's no shortage if the people rejected meet the standard.
If you are rejecting 75% of people from any military jobs, that is clearly evidence that there is no shortage. When there is a shortage, even if you have such ridiculous standards, you are willing to lower them. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Unless the entire anti-chareidi push is for political reasons, which is the obvious conclusion.
"If you are rejecting 75% of people from any military jobs, that is clearly evidence that there is no shortage."
Every job has a minimal level of skill and ability required. Would it be unreasonable to accept a recruit who can't run a quarter kilometer carrying several kilos of military gear in five minutes?
If you are shrieking hysterically about a manpower shortage, you need to lower your expectations.
That is not what “whataboutism” is…
"Israel suffers from a doctor shortage. Do you want medical schools to accept all applicants?"
ARE YOU COMPARING MEDICAL SCHOOL TO THE ARMY??? MILCHEMET MITZVAH ISN'T AT ALL LIKE BECOMING A PHYSICIAN WHICH IS A SPECIALTY BLAH BLAH BLAH.
"ARE YOU COMPARING MEDICAL SCHOOL TO THE ARMY???"
Yes I am. Medical school has standards, and so does the army.
You are not discussing the issue honestly. You yourself have confirmed in your other comment that the army is lacking manpower. So you know that the rejection of 75% of those recruits is not necessarily evidence of sufficient manpower. So why the hysterics (or cap-lock failure)?
"MILCHEMET MITZVAH ISN'T AT ALL..."
Explain the relevancy of this statement to IDF recruitment policy and how such policy belies the claims of a manpower shortage- a claim you yourself have confirmed.
"You are not discussing the issue honestly."
I mostly am. I throw in a cynical remark occasionally- mostly out of frustration with the crass demonization which Dr Slifkin and many of his lackeys regularly engage in.
"You yourself have confirmed in your other comment that the army is lacking manpower. "
I did no such thing. A manpower shortage is different than a strain. The former would mean there aren't enough soldiers to effectively prosecute the war. The latter means that there are sufficient soldiers, but they're overworked.
"A manpower shortage is different than a strain...The latter means that there are sufficient soldiers, but they're overworked. "
No. Being overworked and under strain is a symptom of a manpower shortage.
Example : https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-virus-cases-surge-nurses-threaten-general-strike-over-manpower-shortage/
Note how the terms you use "strain" and "overworked" appear in the context of a manpower shortage.
But don't obsess over the example I provided. Rather defend your bizarre חילוק as follows:
1) Explain how it's possible to have staff overworked, but not due to a manpower shortage. Assume they are actually doing useful and necessary tasks.... Overworked means working beyond normal capacity. That means there's more work to be done than normal capacity can handle. That means normal capacity is insufficient. That means there's a lack of normal capacity. That means there's a shortage of normal capacity. Hence: Manpower shortage.
2) Please cite examples in which staff is overworked, but there is no manpower shortage whatsoever.
The answer is that when you have an army which is made up largely of reservists, and your entire military doctrine assumes that those reservists can be pressed into service for a few days and then go back to their regular non-military life, and on the basis of that doctrine you then go and shrink the amount of active duty service members, and then you have an 8+ month long hot war, you're left with enough reservists to get the job done, but those reservists are strained.
The IDF has reports on recruitment and adjustment dimensions. Check them before you release your poison under the guise of "honesty"
בוא ננסה שוב. אם אתה לא יודע לכתוב אנגלית, פשוט תכתוב בעברית. יהיה הרבה יותר קל להבין אותך.
If you don't know how to speaka da English, just write in hebrew instead. It would be much easier to understand you that way.
You can’t jump into the army at 26 and expect to be fully integrated. Religious and secular boys start Machanayim at 15. Training running. Getting a taste of army. And when they are 18 they are ready to be molded into soldiers. An 18 year old chareidi can be blown over by a blast of wind. They are a group don’t exercise don’t enough general physical activity. Many eat unhealthily. And they have no conception of Army Discipline.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. You don't need "fully integrated" according to some arbitrary standard which only applies when you are not shrieking about a desperate manpower shortage. During the War of Independence, Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky served without having gone through machanyim at 15.
There is a universe of difference between 1948 where all you needed to do was learn to operate a Sten gun and 2023 where technology and enhanced discipline are required.
Lol. What a pathetic response.
Ah, the good old days…
Israel is unable to return 100,000 residents in the north who were expelled from their homes and jobs, because there are not enough soldiers to attack and defend at the same time against Iran, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Yemen, the Palestinian Authority, Gaza, and who knows who else.
Each soldier learns his military profession for months. This is true for a combat soldier and a combat support soldier as well.
That's why the training and professional bases of the IDF need to be increased. At this stage there is not enough staff capable of absorbing large amounts of new soldiers, because everyone who is capable of fighting or supporting fighters is at war.
The result is that if Haredim are mobilized in large numbers, it will be gradually and certainly only after the current war.
So anyone who shouts "the state does not want ultra-Orthodox in the army" and the proof that thousands who came to enlist were not accepted, so, assuming that these are people of conscription age and suitable data to serve in the army, this shouter either does not know what it is about or is completely evil.
Let's call it for what it is - theft.
When reservists have to spend months away from home school or work because thousands of haredim avoid service that's theft.
When they produce nothing of value to society but get benefits that others are entitled to that's theft
When they receive welfare budgets that need to go to schools hospitals disabled etc that's theft.
They do more harm to Judaism than they contribute when they do these things because it engenders disrespect.
Need I go on?
I have read the previous comments. It seems to me that people are speaking about the Haredim as a monolith. While their voting may represent them as a monolith, in their personal habits, etc, they certainly do not seem to be. Haredi boys do engage in sports, ride bicycles, go swimming, etc. No you will not see young Haredi men standing on the street in front of the Mirer Yeshiva kicking footballs. The Haredi community will change. Isolation from the culture at large is impossible in this day and age.
People are making generalizations, which are legitimate as generalizations.
As long as they realize they are generalizing. However, generalizing is not a good practice without saying you are generalizing and where you're getting your information from. Generalizing leads to false, and often not very nice conclusions. BTW my Haredi children and grandchildren all have beautiful teeth, and my grandson-in-law is currently serving in the IDF and the family are all very proud of him as am I.
Spot on.
There's no contradiction between being Charedi and being a soldier.
May G-d protect him.
I've heard people say that almost the entire country agrees that Haredim should be drafted into the army, the only people who disagree are the Haredim and the Army.
The fact that Haredim are less careful about healthcare is tragic, and the Ministry of Health (which until recently has a Haredi minister), should find ways to educate all sectors of society about basic healthcare, and make sure that facilities are available to all communities. I wonder if there are statistics about life expectancy and hospitalization rate of the Haredi community compared to other segments of Israeli society.
The fact that yeshivot actively discourage physical activity is a reflection of their values. As much as I think that physical exercise is one of many things essential for healthy development, I don't think that it would be reasonable for the government to insist that Haredi society change their value system so that their kids have regular sports classes so that they can enlist in the army.
However, I think that the army could and should develop new roles specifically for the Haredi community.
In addition to existing roles for explicitly for religious soldiers (Rabbis, mishgachi kashrut, mashak dat, etc) they could develop additional roles for Haredi soldiers.
For example, the army owns thousands (maybe even tens of thousands) of sifrei Torah and Megillot, as well as hundreds of thousands of mezuzot and sets of Tfilin.
Instead of paying sofrim from the private sector to maintain these items, they could train a unit of Sofrim who serve on a all-Haredi army base and a responsible for maintenance of religious items owned by the army.
They could also maintain a bookbinery and/or printing press to keep the army supplied with Tanachot, Chumashim, Siddurim, Machzorim, etc.
Argument No. 1: The Army needs the Charedim, they cannot shirk their responsibility.
Answer: The Army does not accept Charedim, they have nothing to do with them.
Argument No. 2: Well, we can create roles for them.
Does anyone else see the warped logic here?
>"I wonder if there are statistics about life expectancy and hospitalization rate of the Haredi community compared to other segments of Israeli society."
There are such numbers, and chareidim famously have quite long lifespans. Don't know about hospitalizations/disease. I'd be interested in seeing hard sources for the claim in this post of higher rates of those diseases. I wouldn't be surprised one way or another. For example, charedim, and religious people in general, have much lower smoking rates, especially the women, but I believe the men as well.
>"In addition to existing roles for explicitly for religious soldiers (Rabbis, mishgachi kashrut, mashak dat, etc) they could develop additional roles for Haredi soldiers.
For example, the army owns thousands (maybe even tens of thousands) of sifrei Torah and Megillot, as well as hundreds of thousands of mezuzot and sets of Tfilin."
The last thing we need is yet another entrenched entitlement make-work program for chareidim. The better option is useful non-combat roles, as another commenter mentioned.
Tell that to all the charedi women who have a late diagnosis of breast or uterine cancer because such things aren’t discussed or taught to them in schools….
Is there any kind of source or real indication that this issue is significantly worse for charedi women? Again, I'm far from being an apologist for chareidim, I strongly disagree with their lifestyle and worldview, but I'm interested in data
Here you go….
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4221547/
1) that source says "Orthodox", not "ultra-Orthodox"/"Charedi". Likely it's also/only dati people.
2) it doesn't say they "have a late diagnosis", it's self-reported "perceived effectiveness"
3) it doesn't say that "such things aren’t discussed or taught to them in schools", it says that there are issues of "fear, fatalism, and perceived effectiveness" and "perceived themselves at low cancer risk because of their religious lifestyle and religious belief system".
>" In a study examining attitudes and beliefs associated with screening and mammography among different demographic groups in Israel, Baron-Epel [9] found that fear, fatalism, and perceived effectiveness were associated with the logistic, technical and personal barriers to screening for Orthodox Jewish women. Freund et al. [11] found that Orthodox Jewish women in Israel perceived themselves at low cancer risk because of their religious lifestyle and religious belief system. In addition, some women in this study indicated that seeking medical attention may demonstrate a lack of faith in God and that illness was a direct message from God for the entire community."
Geez….here’s another. Stop being so pedantic….
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0091743504003445
"For example, charedim, and religious people in general, have much lower smoking rates, especially the women, but I believe the men as well."
Are you sure of that? Anecdotally, most of the Israelis I have seen smoking are charedi men. And I have seen a few charedi women smoking, too.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://webcourses.ucf.edu/courses/1396958/files/90617826/download%3Fverifier%3DE1xhxi26ISKV7uQ6rvNmvzo3WGAs8EzxlaFcrRs4%26wrap%3D1&ved=2ahUKEwiKp57Ez8mGAxUv9gIHHc1lD6w4ChAWegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw0HC1y84QfDHMh6g3kE486x
Per the article referenced by Rabbi Slifkin... "...Ultra-Orthodox men, however, according to survey data, smoke at approximately the same rate as men in the general population (approximately 30%; Rosen, 2009)."
(full disclosure: I was a pipe smoker for many years; I gave it up 30+ years ago; not due to health concerns, just didn't enjoy it any longer)
Thanks. So I stand corrected re smoking rates for charedi men (it's same as for general population, as stated there). Would be interested in seeing sources re disease/hospitalizations
This entire piece is incoherent and contradictory. You begin with: “The army most certainly needs more manpower…to meet the increased requirements …and also to be able to reduce the amount of time for which reservists need to serve by spreading it among more people.” And yet when confronting the evidence that drafting Charedim, as is, will not solve these problems, you claim that the only answer is “that charedi society has a responsibility to change such that they can share the responsibility of national defense…If they aren’t willing to do that, then maybe they should look into the viability of moving to a country which doesn’t have such needs.” And yet you still maintain that “There’s no getting around the importance of shared responsibility.” As if leaving the country would help that.
Make up your mind. Do you want to draft charedim as Charedim, or do you want to change them into non-charedim first? Or do you want them to just disappear? If you are conceding that drafting Charedim, as is, won’t work and won’t solve the problem, then what are you suggesting? Even if you could change them to be physically able to serve – that would take years and will not address your “emergency”.
I think you just revealed your true desire – to change Charedim into what you’ve become.
" Do you want to draft charedim as Charedim, or do you want to change them into non-charedim first? "
The Charedim can serve in the army and remain Charedim. Do you think יהושע's army didn't consist of Charedim?
In Yehoshua's army there wasn't a 75% rejection rate from Torah-haters just because the potential recruits were over the age of 26.
So you're saying that they want to change them into non-Charedim by rejecting 75% of them?
Yes, that is clear evidence that they are just engaging in hatred of the Torah with all their chareidi-draft rhetoric.
You didn't answer the question. I didn't ask you for evidence that "evidence that they are just engaging in hatred of the Torah".
Normal wrote "change them into non-charedim", and you implicitly agreed. I asked you how does rejecting 75% of them affect that change.
Please stay on plot, and don't answer a question I didn't ask.
Dear Rabbi Slifkin,
I admire your honest and courageous attitude towards some of the fundamental ideas of Torah Judaism & your self sacrifice and commitment to disseminating and implementing your views. I find your views to be accurate, free of bias and based upon compelling evidence and precise understanding and interpretation of the Torah sources that formulate your views.
Yasher Koach.
The recent report regarding drafting charedim states:
"From the 4000 requests, the IDF rejected 3,120 for a wide range of reasons- mainly “medical unsuitability”."
Please note that "medical unsuitability" is the main reason amongst a "wide range of reasons". Its not the only reason.
What exactly "medical unsuitability" means is certainly not clear.
We also dont know what we would find if we looked at the non charedi men who are SIMILARLY SITUATED, for example, same age range, same type of occupation, meaning people who have "desk jobs", researchers, writers, etc. What percentage of them would be found "medically unsuitable. We dont know how much a sedentary lifestyle contributes to being medically unsuitable. If you were to condemn ALL people who lead a sedentary lifestyle, you would be condemning many non charedim,
There may be valid reasons to blame charedim for not enlisting in the IDF. However , those 4,000 charedim who DID want to enlist should be applauded even if in fact the IDF did not need them, for WHATEVER reason.
Yrs, it is absolutely necessary and vital for the charedim to take better care of their health, by changing their lifestyle. It is criminal for their leaders to ignore this. They have blood on their hands.
Thank you
Reuven Poupko
"But if that’s the case, then it’s hardly a vindication of charedim! It would signify a deep flaw in charedi society if they make themselves so physically and/or temperamentally unsuited to army service, and so uninterested in figuring out a way to make it work, that everyone else has to instead increase the length of time that they spend in service and reserve duty."
Ya, these charedim aren't just selfish. They're morbidly obese, have diabetes, and all sorts of other comorbidities which led to them dying en masse during Covid. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/ten-times They must have exceedingly high mortality rates and are probably on the brink of extinction, right?
"I just heard from a physician who works in the charedi sector that the lack of appropriate medical care is appalling, and not because of the physicians - the population itself is just negligent. They named diabetes, heart disease, mental health issues, and dental abscesses as just some of the problems. And of course, charedi yeshivos do not do sports or any kind of physical exercise, and often even discourage such things. "
Maybe your Bnei-Brak-tologist physician friend should stick to caring for chayalim who deserve his care rather than helping breed all of these parasites.
Chayalim deserve the best of medical care. Haredim who shirk thier communal and religious obligations….not so much. Let them eat kugel….
>> Haredim have a deep debt to the rest of Israeli society
How many times do I need to repeat that Haredim are the key to the long-term future of Israel?
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-core-of-the-conflict/comment/55813234
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-core-of-the-conflict/comment/55856776
(Of course there are still some old-fashioned people who cling to their belief in the Gemara Bava Basra that רבנן לא צריכי נטירותא ואני חומה זו תורה ושדי כמגדלות אלו תלמידי חכמים, but I guess we can leave that aside.)
Listen, if you would stick to the point that the Israeli government cannot continue to support Kollelim and even yeshivos especially during a time of war I probably can agree with, and perhaps so can some of the crazy self-appointed Haredi spokesmen commenting here.
But when you yourself can't make up your mind if you think drafting the Charedim today makes sense or not, and especially when you continue to ignore the fact that Charedim are essential for the future of עם ישראל, ארץ ישראל ומדינת ישראל you cannot expect intelligent people to take you seriously.
Keep repeating a lie and the only one here who’s going to believe is you…
Long term future of Israel are those who are willing to serve. Religious and secular alike.
Ok, I guess we are pretty much on the same page then.
First off, I should note that I never said Charedim shouldn't serve. If you would go back and look at my previous comments here and at IM you would see that my position is much more complicated than that.
But the general point I think you are making is that ultimately this discussion boils down to a question of values and mindset. If you have an old-fashioned mindset, one in which a Zionist nation-state is of ultimate importance and Malthusian fears deeply concern you, if you agree with the OP that the only way to prevent the next Holocaust ch"v is through a state of forever wars ((32) Comments - The Core of the Conflict - by Natan Slifkin (rationalistjudaism.com)), where forever every citizen will need to serve in the army, and if you believe that a larger עם ישראל is inherently a threat to the existence of מדינת ישראל, unless we forcibly change the culture and religion of those additions to עם ישראל to conform with the above mindset, then you are certainly right.
However, if you believe that every addition to עם ישראל is precious, if you understand that not only has Malthus been proven wrong but the opposite has proven true, that וכבשוה only comes about through פרו ורבו ומלאו את הארץ, if you believe that through growing עם ישראל, and especially growing an עם ישראל with traditional religious values, we can dare to hope and plan for a brilliant future of a democracy for everyone, of a society with religious values in which Jews and Muslims cooperate beautifully, of a future where we don't have to be in a constant state of war, then obviously your perspective will change drastically.
No. I don't expect you to understand my perspective. I understand it is quite hard for a secular person to grasp the brilliant future of Charedi Judaism. But I can only give you a bracha that you or your children should merit to see the fulfillment of this vision במהרה בימינו אמן.
I’m afraid the future you envision can be described as “death by demography”.
You can’t have a society comprised entirely (or primarily) of batlanim…
A few more comments that I forgot to include.
1. The way I see the economy of the future, with everything virtual and remote and with AI will work very well with Charedim. I see this happening in front of my eyes in Lakewood, that very successful people have so much more time to learn Torah now due to these developments.
To me these are just some examples of how Malthusian theory is proven wrong again and again and again. High fertility only stimulates more innovation and growth. Which leads to my next point.
2. I always find it ironic how secular people and the OP complain about the high Charedi birthrate, when not only is this essential for Israel, it is also essential for change to happen in Charedi society. The real changes that need to happen in Charedi society, such as a shattering of dynastic power, and attendance of college, will come about due to to the pressures of a highly fertile society, not the opposite. If the secular want Charedi society to change they should do whatever possible to ensure that they have very high fertility, while at the same time defunding the Kollelim and Yeshivos.
3. I do think the ideal would be for Charedim not to take any benefit at all from the מדינה, like the Neturei Karta. However, for that to happen there needs to be a full tax exemption not just for local Charedim, but for all money brought in by foreign Charedim. If Israel would cleanse their country from Charedim, as the OP suggests, I assume the foreign Charedim would cleanse themselves from Israel.
I hear your concern.
I discussed this before. I don't think I can fully cover this a blog comment but here goes.
I don't view the Charedim as batlanim. https://woodfromeden.substack.com/p/israels-forgotten-victim-card/comment/57670986 They adopted a policy of isolation. As they become the majority, they will slowly shed this isolation. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/shteiging-into-the-abyss/comment/22934646 I think this is already in the process of happening, as is clear from some famous comments from Reb Moshe Hillel Hirsh over the last months. I do agree that this is happening too slowly. This is why I wrote that I agree with stopping to fund Kollelim and even yeshivos. However, I feel that part of the blame for the slow process lies at the feet of venomous hatred-filled articles like the one above us, especially when they make it clear that they have no intention of making serious thoughtful policy decisions which will help Charedim transition gradually, but rather they wish to let out their blood-thirsty hatred and lust for revenge in any way imaginable.
If you wish to see what the future Charedi economy will look like, take a look at the Lakewood economy which has been progressing at a dizzying pace over the past 15 years, and will iy"H continue to do so. I don't think the Charedi education in Lakewood is much different than that in Eretz Yisroel. (And I have good reason to think that the Charedim in E"Y will learn to integrate more secular knowledge as needed, and as they have been doing in the girls school system for decades now. Probably the most important caveat is that it can't be forced down their throats, as they react very negatively to that.) The main difference is that in Lakewood they are not surrounded by masses of Charedi-haters as they are in Eretz Yisroel.
Considering that Charedim are less materialistic than secular society it is possible that a Charedi economy will be somewhat smaller than the current one. Perhaps this is a good thing as it may make it easier to get along with the Arabs. https://woodfromeden.substack.com/p/israels-forgotten-victim-card/comment/57140096 Even in the worst-case scenario I still think it will be better than the current state of low-fertility (yes, I know it is considered high for the modern world, but still) and perpetual wars.
Charedim also have the benefit of a low percentage of retirees, both because they are younger on average, and because it is less common (at least in my experience) for them to retire voluntarily.
Whatever happens, it is clear that one must keep in mind that Israel is fortuitous in having the most fertile society in the world in their midst, as demography is their greatest concern. They should be extremely careful not to kill the goose which is laying their golden egg. They should make it their top priority to help successful Charedim from abroad emigrate to Eretz Yisroel, and to help successful people in Eretz Yisroel become Charedim. This will have the double effect of growing their demographics and providing excellent role-models for Charedim to learn from.
And I must repeat again for the umpteenth time that I do not think Charedi society is perfect. Far from it. I think they have a lot to work on. However, I feel that they are the closest to an ideal society, as they are high fertility, hardworking and probably higher IQ than the average non-Jew. If we would have more people like Eli Paley who are actually working on helping Charedim change for the better, instead of just calling them the scum of the earth, the world would be a much better place.
The link came out wrong https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-core-of-the-conflict/comment/55776012
Your argument is "Israel needs high charedi birthrates in order to annex the West Bank".
But that's not technically true. More precisely, Israel needs high birthrates in order to annex the West Bank *while remaining a democracy*. If (hypothetically) Israel were to give up on being a democracy, it could annex the West Bank right now with no problem.
And that's why high charedi birthrates don't necessarily help. Because charedim don't believe in democracy, they believe in following the dictates of the gedolim. If charedim become the majority, there won't be a democracy problem regarding Arabs, but there also won't be democracy in Israel to begin with.
LOL!
Am I supposed to respond to this? It's basically like saying "if all the accusations in Mein Kampf are true then there is nothing wrong with Mein Kampf".
But I just saw an interesting essay on this topic, so I am posting a link to it. https://www.stevestewartwilliams.com/p/imaginary-enemies?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=318964&post_id=140833942&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=2gnvj6&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
And no, I don't have the time to get into petty fights about things Charedim did, or something a Charedi once said. I think everyone commenting here agrees that Charedi society, like every society, has major flaws which it needs to work on. But that doesn't distract me from seeing the bigger picture.
I can also claim that Israel is interested in ethnic cleansing based on certain comments made by some Israelis (including the above post) and certain actions by individuals. But no, I don't believe that. I know how to look at the bigger picture.
The IDF doesn't want an ordinary religious soldiers, indeed:
https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/Hyn11J1jRD
https://www.maariv.co.il/news/military/Article-1076091
https://x.com/ItayBlumental/status/1725077712824332490
https://www.inn.co.il/news/639709
Please provide a concise summary of these links. Don't be lazy.
The army forbids religious soldiers from growing beards, expresses concerns about soldiers following rabbinical guidance over military orders, and recently dismissed the official responsible for overseeing kashrut without appointing a replacement.
Forbids from growing beards???????
What are you spewing?
If you read my recent comments, you'll find links to relevant media articles that confirm the problem I've described.
I was in the army. Theres a פטור זקן
It's like saying, "I was in France. You claim there's anti-Semitism there, but no one punched me in the face." Here's a link: https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/Hyn11J1jRD
BS. plenty of soldiers with beard religious and secular alike look at any picture of a group of them.
https://www.inn.co.il/news/524064
Naturally, a report commissioned by a Yesh Atik MK would be accepted without question as valid.
After all, chilonim make excellent soldiers – they are never negligent, especially regarding their health – they never have diabetes, heart disease, mental health issued and dental abscesses.
And they are certainly great sports fans – they watch hours of football and basketball on TV.
They are also burning with motivation, and their discipline is outstanding.
“Kashrut and suchlike...” ? Well, they don’t have such niggling requirements, and are willing to eat anything they set eyes on.
Their society is therefore perfect and has no deep flaws – they make sure to make themselves physically and temperamentally suited – as none have any debt to Israeli society, as it is their inalienable right to have their sports and entertainment funded by the rest of society.
And all this while being easily able to find a country which would welcome them with open arms and treat them as valued citizens.
.....Or perhaps not?
Your point being?
they should move to England
No thanks - we have enough issues with chillul hashem created by certain groups already (chillul Hashem is not on the chareidi list of 'inyonim' to be makpid in, to become little Chazon Ish's or divorce the body from the soul or whatever)
charedim interpret chilul hashem to be about doing mitzvot, including בין אדם למקום. This already has roots in Chazal
Actually the only examples of chillul Hashem found in the gemoroh are of talmidei chachomim not doing the RIGHT thing, bein odom l'chaveiroh, because it looks dodgy to an observer. Kal v'chomer if its the wrong thing.
I don't know or care where your chareidi interpretation comes from.
It's not "my charedi interpretation". (I personally am quite far from being charedi, in any sense, but that's irrelevant.)
The major discussion of chillul and kiddush hashem in the Talmud in Sanhedrin includes ייהרג ולא יעבור on איסור עבודה זרה
Talmud Sanhedrin discusses kiddush hashem. Nothing about chillul hashem. Two seperate things, and one is not the opposite of the other.
Actually, they're explicitly linked, and one is indeed the opposite of the other.
See rambam, Mishneh Torah:
כל בית ישראל מצווין על קדוש השם הגדול הזה שנאמר ונקדשתי בתוך בני ישראל ומוזהרין שלא לחללו שנאמר ולא תחללו את שם קדשי
....
כל מי שנאמר בו יעבור ואל יהרג ונהרג ולא עבר הרי זה מתחייב בנפשו וכל מי שנאמר בו יהרג ואל יעבור ונהרג ולא עבר הרי זה קידש את השם ואם היה בעשרה מישראל הרי זה קידש את השם ברבים כדניאל חנניה מישאל ועזריה ורבי עקיבא וחביריו ואלו הן הרוגי מלכות שאין מעלה על מעלתן ועליהן נאמר כי עליך הורגנו כל היום נחשבנו כצאן טבחה ועליהם נאמר אספו לי חסידי כורתי בריתי עלי זבח וכל מי שנאמר בו יהרג ואל יעבור ועבר ולא נהרג הרי זה מחלל את השם ואם היה בעשרה מישראל הרי זה חילל את השם ברבים ובטל מצות עשה שהיא קידוש השם ועבר על מצות לא תעשה שהיא חלול השם
https://he.m.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A8%D7%9E%D7%91%22%D7%9D_%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%99%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%93%D7%99_%D7%94%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%94_%D7%94
Don't you live in Israel? You must be visiting the Western Hemisphere! Enjoy your Shabbos!
Reb Kalman doesn't interpret it like that, right?
Please elaborate on the "mental health issues" and whether you are suggesting that the rates of it among Charedim are somehow higher than the general population?
Please link to the report. The link above doesn’t lead to the report.