The jury is still out on how succesful your transformation has been. Give it 20 years and then we'll talk. So far I haven't seen anything that inspires confidence in the future of your chosen path.
You sound bitter. Rabbi slifkin has absolutely inspired confidence in 1000s as the zoo rebbi. You are a bitter, anonymous person posting in his successful blog.
I'm going to assume you posted to the wrong reply, given this is a complete non sequitur. If you have a problem with what he says, start your own following of thousands, make your own museum, and write your own blog. maybe then you can get some of the attention you so crave.
The fact that you read and reply to his articles is indicative that he helps you, either as your contra or breadth or something. And you should recognise what an achievement that is, because you are probably not the easiest cup of tea.
It can be difficult to switch communities. I remember how hard it was for me. The first time I stopped wearing my black hat, which I had worn since my barmitzva, I felt naked. It was awkward to switch shuls. And if you have kids in school, that raises even greater challenges.
But it can be done. I know of a number of people who made the switch as a result of the ban on my books. They are all very happy that they did so. Sure, there might be a few things that bother them. But they have found Rabbanim that they respect. They have found a worldview that they can connect to.
RNS has through his work become a valuable guide and educator to those who relate to religious conceptual challenges. Many have and can learn from him. Many in the Chareidi and DL community can learn much from him. We need more עיון in these areas. I believe that many in both the Chareidi and DL educational system have ignored serious study in this area especially in the Chareidi sector. Repeating illogical and nonsensical answers won't help. As R. Yehuda Gershun Za"Tzal would often say to new talmidim in his yeshiva that you have to think about what you are saying and not just repeat slogans and
Assuming his values are correct... If chareidi values are correct it's possible that he's done more damage, such as people losing respect for reb Elyashiv or reb chaim kanievsky and for the importance of Torah by extension.
Are we talking to the same point? I think reb chaim kanievsky and reb Elyashiv should be "worshipped" they're our goals and role models more than anything and anyone else. They're the masai yagiu maasai lemaasei avosai of the dor
agreed. i would never use that word for a person, except i was responding to @yidposhut who used that word and seemed to use it to mean revere or look up to. but hence my quotes. in context i think i responded well
Idk what you're talking about. We're probably on the same page. But impressionable people like children and teenagers who are setting up their worldview are usually much more b&w. Pacing that complete immersion in Torah is not the ultimate is a bad and wrong message which affects an entire worldview down the line
Everyone knows there is a leadership problem in the yeshivish/chareidi community (which probably stems more from the lack of "community" more than anything else - anyone in our world with a solid shul and rav has no issue here) but we still are part of this community because to us it represents true Judaism. The reason why anyone leaves (like you) has nothing to do with leadership problems; rather because they disagree with (I would term it "don't get") the hashkafa. You're conflating two things.
"Everyone knows there is a leadership problem in the yeshivish/chareidi community". Can you explain further? One of the key aspects of Charedi hashkafah, repeated over and over, is the need be mevatel daas to the Gedolim. I would seem to be that if you think (in your daas balabas) that there is a leadership problem then you disagree to some extent with the Charedi hashkafah.
Setting that aside, what do you mean by "The reason why anyone leaves ... has nothing to do with leadership problems; rather because they disagree with ... the hashkafa." Even outside the Charedi world, the leaders of a group have a large hand in defining the philosophy of the group. What distinction are you making here?
to the first point, i guess i would explain like i said in the parenthesis that there is a community problem amongst the chareidim. in lakewood for example, (except for those shuls that have chashuve, accepted rabbanim who are manhig their shuls which binds those specific kehilos together) there is very little cohesiveness. it's just a bunch of people doing their own thing. everyone knows how to learn and how to look up a mishna berura and pasken the daily shailos, everyone is their own rav and posek. and perhaps many or most of them are learned enough to do that. but the downside is that there is no community. in less "lakewoody" places, like much of monsey, passaic, baltimore, cleveland and on there are adhesive communities which are bound together by the rabbonim. in lakewood all there is are the roshei yeshiva shlit'a and the four or five big poskim, and they each have some people who are very close to them but for the community at large there is little kesher with them.
these rabanim also have come out with machaos and bans about some very silly things which were led by kanaim who have nothing better to do with their lives, and this has been highly off-putting for many. rabonim all across america disagreed with their positions in many cases. i'm not sure what to o about that
i'm not getting into the topic of daas torah now at length, and it is obviously a complicated subject, beyond this comment section. but it's not what we've been seeing. i happen to be of the opinion that slifkin is right about a lot of his criticisms, but it's coming from the wrong place, hence ineffective. if only he would also appreciate what we are about - torah and avodah - and talk from that perspective. otherwise, it's easy for the liberal to be overly liberal about a conservative system which he doesn't understand to begin with.
the chareidi community has a lot of chesronos, almost by definition of conservatism, but there are too many maalos and authentic ideas that overall they are still the winning party for God's mission.
in a sense, the leaders are great at leading the basic hashkafa, (instilling proper values etc.) but there is so much bipartisanship in specific issues (such as taking those values too far פשוטו של מקרא being a good example), along with a lot of kanaus and misinformation (or rather, disinformation) that the leadership is at best uninformed. what is needed is better close-knit communities of people with personal guidance, as klal yisroel has always done. for the "hadavar hagadol" we go higher up on the chain but in general the leadership is supposed to be sarei asara, chamishim and meos.
not exactly sure what you were asking at the end, if you can please explain...?
(thanks, i love our dialogues and your input, sorry i never responded last time, i'll try but as always, a lot of the material needs like full essays to explain, i assume on both sides. because at the bottom of a lot of these discussions is deeper more nuanced ideas that are beyond a comment section. you can always email me at davidschulmannn@gmail.com...)
I wish there were more outspoken people (like you, me, leib shachar, ash) who are "yeshivish" but understand the other side strongly and where we need to improve. But not at the expense of losing what most important
While that is understandable, they lose people that way because it looks like any legitimate point is dealt with trolling and ad hominem attacks.
I'm on IMs side for most issues but I think we can have genuine responses that acknowledge our flaws while still believing that our system still has the best shot at yielding good jews.
I have noticed that as well. Personally, I have to regularly ask shilahs of the community rav. Even though I am half way through my third daf yomi cycle and have learned about half of Yerushalmi. Simply learning a lot of gemara doesn't make one a posek, especially for onesself.
What is 'true Judaism'? What happened in Bovel with no yeshivish/charedi community. Or numerous other communities in the past and round the world? Did they not practice 'True Judaism'? None of them?
Is nepotism, gur and gur infighting, Rav Shmuel Aurbach's crowd rioting, minyan factories, long glamorous sheitels 'true Judaism'? Is (and this is the latest fad apparently advertised in Mishpacha) an smell consultant to ensure your home smells beautiful, true Judaism? What about looking for every loophole in the book (let's stop at loophole shall we) to cream as much in the way of benefits as possible from the 'goyim', torah Judaism? Is refusing to teach boys elementary skills to earn parnossoh, torah judaism?
Do you ever take a step back and THINK about things?
If course there are issues in the chareidi/yeshivish world, though they are hardly as bad as your make it out to be. In every community there are tops middles and bottoms. I assume you agree the tops of our community are of the best tops a Jewish community can produce. People like reb Yaakov, reb Moshe and reb ahron. In my opinion the middles, again like in any community, are average in what they do, but because the message of the community is of the priorities I believe to be correct, the average in such a community is averagely faring those responsibilities best. In this regard, assuming the chareidi ideals are correct, we will have a better net average even amongst the middle class (who are the majority) because the ideals are correct - as opposed to a different community, with which we believe stress the wrong ideals, the average will be excellent in those professed ideals, at the expense of what we believe to be the utmost true and proper.
As far as your q about that there were no chareidim back then, well, sure. But there were none of any of us back then either. The question is which one of us is most closely correct in the efforts of doing what they did, labels aside. We believe they what we profess what's most important in Judaism as what was always most important.
And that is delving into God's word with all our ability, being careful about His commandments and trying to gain fear of Heaven; ie connecting with with God. I believe the chareidim, despite all their problems, have their priorities straight about what's the absolutely most important, and by extension have the best average in these areas.
If you disagree with the chareidi premise about which priorities and ideals are the most important, that's one thing but as always, lets not hide behind the issues and conflate the problems in the community with what the community really is.
" though they are hardly as bad as your make it out to be"
You are missing the point. It's not about bad or good. It's about the schizophrenic self-contradictory behaviour which is a feature, not a bug.
The same magazine that waffles endlessly about fealty to gedolim and torah will happily host ads for long glamarous sheitels, fine wines and feature recipes for luxury fine desserts. The same siyum or tzedoko fundraise that will claim all sorts of 'ma'ales in torah' etc will also be advertised as having a top singer and gourmet buffet to attract the crowds. Those in charedi society with money are as into gashmiyous as a typical goy with money. I don't see much ideal there. I see a lot of walking the walk and talking the talk.
I get your point, but I would say it's a feature more of being in America or in a western society and being human beings who are lazy and baalei taiva, not a feature of being a chareidi. The modern Orthodox society also has gashmius issues. Sometimes absolutely kneged halacha, such as instead sheitels too long it's not connecting hair at all, it's sleeves too short or too much tv and movies.
"The modern Orthodox society also has gashmius issues"
Yes, but they don't claim to be 'true Judaism' like you did a few hours ago. Charedim claim to be the authentic torah jews, sheivet levi blah blah blah but once you drill down its complete, self-congratulatory, nonsense. Some charedi individuals are indeed lamed vav niks, but as a society, there is nothing special about them (other than their clothing). Some are good, some are bad, some are truly dishonest, some are violent and some are tzadikim.
They just have different faults to other groups, but the difference is they happily overlook their faults and claim they are 'torah jews' like you just did. The modox make no such claims.
Fantastic article We all attended yesterday’s rally. Was great to feel like we are a part of something bigger. Unfortunately very few on the right attended.
No offense, but if you think that people are going to take you as an example of a successful hashkafa switching, you are seriously deluded. It's hard to think of a better case of what NOT to do. Can't you come up with an example of somebody who switched hashkafos and still remains an authentic committed Torah Jew, rather than a bitter middle-aged man who spends half his time vigorously denying Torah fundamentals and the other half attacking Torah Jews?
I can confidently say that I, and countless friends and family of mine, have seen Rabbi Slifkin as a huge success in growth in Torah, as we followed his journey and watched him grow. He has been and remains an inspiration for us all. He provides a brave connection to yiddishkeit, in contrast with the ubiquitous intellectual cowardice in the frum world , for so many people and it serves as a zechus for him. May he continue to spread Torah and inspire us all.
Can you honestly say you would have done the same if you suffered as he did? And prefacing your disrespectful attack on Rabbi Slifkin with an insincere “no offense” and then proceeding to deliberately offend is a transparently dishonest way of engaging in mud-slinging rather than true discourse.
The problem is, you guys define Reform Judaism as "growth in Torah". I have no problem admitting he unfortunately caused many people to go off the derech, thankfully they are a tiny percentage compared to the many our kiruv organizations have brought back and he hasn't made a dent in the frum growth rate.
I have no idea what I would do if I suffered like he did, but if you look at his history, it's absolutely clear it was largely self inflicted. He should have backed down, but was too haughty.
Reform Judaism. Like those who have reformed the simple meaning of:
האחיכם יבואו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה?
To mean the opposite of what it obviously means in order to defend the indefensible and let others fight and be killed to defend your communities while their only risk is getting a cramp in their legs from sitting on their bums for too long a period.
Exactly. Reform doesn't care about halacha, what the Torah actually means, etc. They just view pesukim as platitudes upon which they can unload their secular values. Case in point.
How convenient that the gross twisting of a clear directive allows you to sit on your bum while others risk their lives to protect you.
And how disgusting when the dati Leumi community are showing what real mesirut nefesh is and all you can do is call them reform. I’m guessing shame is not something you are able to feel because if it was you’d realize that the best action for you to take would be to keep a lid on it.
Only a "clear directive" if you read the pesukim grossly out of context, and especially the halachic context. Typical for Reform. Never called datiim Reform.
I appreciate the mesiras nefesh of the dati soldiers and actually even the secular ones. Slifkin is not really dati, but much closer to reform, and of course never served.
Many well respected Rabbanim gave their haskama to his book
They removed it (except for one) when threatened by the the Chareidi leadership.This is your standard for defaming RNS! Your utter disgusting behaviour says what you are.The cry "it's Reform," is the cry "it's the wolf". Of no meaning or value!
What drivel are you on about? Reform Judaism? You clearly know nothing about rabbi slifkin, and less about the world. I'm surprised you are allowed to use the internet, does your rabbi know you have wifi?
Either you haven't been reading his actual writings, or you don't understand him. Return to the beit midrash and learn some more before embarrassing yourself further.
$45 is now donated to Rabbi Slifkin’s museum in your honor. Thank you for your continued support. Your support will help educate impressionable young minds in need of a rationalist approach to Judaism. Congratulations!
"spends half his time vigorously denying Torah fundamentals and the other half attacking Torah Jews". In which half does founding and running a Torah museum, getting a doctorate and publishing books fit?
No I was serious. He was much more productive before he started his rabble rousing antisemitic career. I haven't seen the book you mention, but I think it's basically a compilation of articles and ideas that he's written about on his blog.
His last serious book was the encyclopedia of Torah animals, not sure the year it was originally published. He's written here that he has no time to finish the second volume. I mentioned to him that if he would take a step back from his KKK activism, he would find time to finish it. So far he hasn't taken my advice
Hmm, well the published works are almost all in both categories I mentioned, and it doesn't seem like he spends much time "running" the museum. Unless you count arranging lavish parties with octopus ice cream and roast peacock for his wealthy friends.
You sound jealous, were you not offered an invitation? Or is it that you can't stand to see people enjoy the breadth of the world that G-d has given to us?
According to him, it was natural selection evolution, for starters. He has very limited space for God in his philosophy, that's for sure. He doesn't even believe God protects the Land of Israel.
Ok. I'm not getting dragged into a conversation with someone who doesn't understand the most basic high school curriculum. BH, you have rich parents to support you, so you can safely live in ignorance.
For us, the fact that God created the world is basic pre-school curriculum. Unfortunately in your circles, you don't get to it by high school, college, or usually the rest of your lives.
Neither did our Prophets, or Chazal. I totally understand your not understanding the former, as your yeshiva probably never taught navi and you probably have never learned Jeremiah, but the concept of God withdrawing protection is definitely a thing in Chazal.
I believe that you are wrong on both counts. R Slifkin states support for the fact of evolution, but expresses doubts about the Darwin's theory of natural selection. And he believes that God protects the Land of Israel. (With the proviso that given the multiple murderous ethnic cleansings we've faced both in an outside of Israel, I don't think that anyone thinks that it is axiomatic that we will protected now from the same, except among the RZ who consider this to definitely be reishit tsmichat geulateinu.)
Gedolim themselves sometimes say that bad things happening in the Land of Israel is punishment for some sin or sins. That is a withdrawal of protection.
Fundraising is a big part of any such institution. I once visited R Meiselman in NY for a son who was looking to go to TOMO and he was busy arranging a fundraising event for the Yeshiva. R Slifkin also actually has some hand in the day to day and gave a tour on the day I was there in the museum last. Besides the fact that he created the whole thing from scratch. All of that takes enormous time and effort over many years. Go ask someone who heads and institution and find out.
Continue to embarrass yourself with your ignorance.
In any case, you have clearly shown that it is you, and not Rabbi Slifkin, who think that halachah is optional. I have now lost track of the number of times you have spouted motzi shem ra here.
So then you are not objecting at all to the transformation. You believe that even as a Charedi his works were kefirah. His transformation was correct and successful in your opinion. He went to be part of frum society who you deem heretics.
So again, you are just attacking him as a always heretic having nothing to do with his move from Charedi to RZ and just fooling the Chareidi crowds who used to publish and buy his book until they came around to what you somehow already know.
RNS is a believing Jew and your disgusting מוציא שם רע against R N S shows your low despicable character.RNS believes in certain concepts and relate to many authoritative sources.If you disagree point it out with support for your argument.How dare you accuse RNS of essentially not being under the religious canopy.A terrible accusation placing a Jew out of the religious community. If you have serious criticism of his ideas explain why they are so politely and delicately. RNS obviously thinks he is within our religious community.
Yes, as were the Chofetz Chaim yeshivos. Incidentally, the entire Bais Yaakov Baltimore also went. I guess they could handle it, but the little princelings from Lakewood couldn't for some reason.
Accurate in a sense that it's worth switching communities?
I personally am uneasy about the Yeshiva community not joining, and even more when I am aware of those among who supported it but were silenced. But as Ash says, the overall outcome and advantages is still worth all the problems it comes with. (Sorry if I misquoted that, It's been a while and my memory isn't great.)
I like putting it this way: If you put your kid through the Chareidi system you will get him far in Torah but you might need to tutor him to be up to par in some areas of education. If you put your kid through the [American] Modern system he'll be up to par in education but it'll be a lot harder getting him up to par in the Torah department. I.E. compare chareidi law grads to yeshiva flip outs.
Accurate in the sense that alot of jews feel disenfranchised.
I personally don't have an issue with the chareidi community because I don't see it as one large community, rather as a bunch of sub communities under the umbrella term " chareidi".
There are many gedolim...follow the ones you resonate with.
In unrelated but related news...I didn't see Reb Shmuel Kamenetzky signing against attending...
Meaning even the more moderate chareidim at the end of the day have a similar תפיסה and view judaism in a similar way as the "mainstream" litvishe gedolim. Lakewood and williamsburg, although they have different emphasis', are still generally similar enough to attend the same עצרת התפילות and to not attend the same events.
What view and תפיסה is that exactly? How do moderate chareidim, or even yeshivish chareidim view Judaism differently than serious datiim (as opposed to the liberal ones)?
I agree with many of Rabbi Slifkin's points, but i think this piece was way too simplistic. Although some Rabbonim of the Agudah discouraged going to the rally, there were in fact many Rabbonim in the Yeshivish world who encouraged people to go. Even on the Moetzet itself, most of the 13 Rabbonim did not sign the letter. Rav Lopiansky, Chafatz Chaim Rabbeim, and the Roshei Yeshivah of Shaar Hatorah of Queens (both of which are highly respected in the Yeshivish world), are other examples. To suggest that the rally is a reason to switch from being Yeshivish to Modern Orthodox is a a big and unnecessary jump. All that is needed is to become part of a more moderate Yeshivish Shul/community. I think the rally should be viewed not as a disagreement between Chareidim and MO, but rather between different parts of the Yeshivish world.
Right. A father in Monsey will remove his daughter from Bais Yaakov and enroll her in Frisch because rabbanim said not to go to the rally. Now for the next rally she will be able to ride on the bus to Washington with her boyfriend.
Or better yet, a mother in LA will take her son from MBY and enroll him in YULA so that he can have the girls cheer him on in the Samson gym (oh sorry - SAMSON ATHLETIC CENTER.
I agree about the lack of leadership. But to conclude this is worth switching communities for, I don’t think that’s necessarily fair. Also, Rav Shechter and Willig both wear black hats… let’s not make this about switching black hats. 90% of Roshei Yeshiva at YU wear black hats so either they’re “Haredi” or we need to drop the black hat from the community switching conversation.
"90% of our nation understands that it requires genuine achdus. Therefore, I will continue to bash Charedim! The beatings will continue until morale improves!"
(BTW, 290,000 people, all squashed into one little location, and planned in less than two weeks. Pretty dangerous, what? Does the Federation also "not grasp" that running such events require "planning and professional guidance", or is it only Charedim who are too stoopid to understand that?)
I think that you are misinformed. The national mall is huge and has hosted events with 1+ million attendees. They also don't control DC and had to follow all the regular safety procedures in hosting the event; procedures which were set by 3rd parties.
Sounds like you won't answer so I'll address your point. Safety regulation involve driving down the chances of a disaster to very low numbers, much lower that you can detect with scores of events. The fact that there is no disaster the first 50 times means nothing; you want to drive that down to one in hundreds of thousand or millions or more. In fact my son went in years before the disaster and reported to me that the conditions were not safe. It was just too crowded. There are known ways to minimize risk even if they are not perfect, and limitations on density are a big part of it.
Your advice is inconsiderate. There are some people who identify charedi who become disillusioned that may find a major change to a different community to be (a) the right thing for them and (b) much less likely - the right thing for their whole family. But a non-recommendation to attend this rally is a pretty lousy reason to so substanitally change your identification. It would have to be based on years of exploration and finding that the truth of existence is found in this other community rather than in your own. WAY more people simply need to meet other charedim - and there are many including many rabbanim and rabbeim - who are very much not in line with Israeli charedim and not even with many of the American gedolim but still find themselves solidly within the "yeshiva world". In my view, the most important consideration may be that no community does half a good a job at successfully educating its children to a meaningful life. As they get older, they can be given more specific guidance to address the kinds of issues you raise. Leaving any community can be devastating to a family and even to one's future family (when they are not ready to raise children in a different world). Please give good balanced advice instead of taking every opportunity to trash all charedim.
"Switching communitys" is a myopic approach. It upholds the idea that one must fundamentally adhere to all dogmas of his community. And since there are dichotomous communities, it's either Camp A or B or absolute hashkafik homelessness.
In reality, a society should have a healthy balance between individualism and collectivism; we "generally" adhere to certain collective dogmas, but carve room in our own spaces. This is where having a personal rav is important. This is what the "black hat" crowd does in America; there are varying hashkafas (working education etc.) and we operate under the general umbrella of mesorah yidden or whatever.
The disillusionment comes when people realize that their own collectivism/individualism balance is not aligned with the leaders of the umbrella group, and they see a misalignment; "I guess I'm not really part of this community and don't share it's leaders value."
The truth is that you DO share the community's values, but you just never recognized that the Gedolim weren't really the leaders of said community.
The jury is still out on how succesful your transformation has been. Give it 20 years and then we'll talk. So far I haven't seen anything that inspires confidence in the future of your chosen path.
You sound bitter. Rabbi slifkin has absolutely inspired confidence in 1000s as the zoo rebbi. You are a bitter, anonymous person posting in his successful blog.
Success it not a measure of truth and right or wrong
Yeah, as opposed to a guy who literally posts an article a day attacking his "opponents". Stunning and brave.
I'm going to assume you posted to the wrong reply, given this is a complete non sequitur. If you have a problem with what he says, start your own following of thousands, make your own museum, and write your own blog. maybe then you can get some of the attention you so crave.
Um, no. If you have a racist spewing nonstop hatred against one specific community, you can expect people to fight back.
It's sad how people like you don't even see what a racist he is.
The fact that you read and reply to his articles is indicative that he helps you, either as your contra or breadth or something. And you should recognise what an achievement that is, because you are probably not the easiest cup of tea.
Do you guide your life to inspire confidence in anonymous commenters on your blog?
That is a terrible, petty, and way too personal of a thing to say.
I was replying to what Slifkin had written:
It can be difficult to switch communities. I remember how hard it was for me. The first time I stopped wearing my black hat, which I had worn since my barmitzva, I felt naked. It was awkward to switch shuls. And if you have kids in school, that raises even greater challenges.
But it can be done. I know of a number of people who made the switch as a result of the ban on my books. They are all very happy that they did so. Sure, there might be a few things that bother them. But they have found Rabbanim that they respect. They have found a worldview that they can connect to.
RNS has through his work become a valuable guide and educator to those who relate to religious conceptual challenges. Many have and can learn from him. Many in the Chareidi and DL community can learn much from him. We need more עיון in these areas. I believe that many in both the Chareidi and DL educational system have ignored serious study in this area especially in the Chareidi sector. Repeating illogical and nonsensical answers won't help. As R. Yehuda Gershun Za"Tzal would often say to new talmidim in his yeshiva that you have to think about what you are saying and not just repeat slogans and
sayingssomething common in many Yeshivot.
Assuming his values are correct... If chareidi values are correct it's possible that he's done more damage, such as people losing respect for reb Elyashiv or reb chaim kanievsky and for the importance of Torah by extension.
Are we talking to the same point? I think reb chaim kanievsky and reb Elyashiv should be "worshipped" they're our goals and role models more than anything and anyone else. They're the masai yagiu maasai lemaasei avosai of the dor
I think you have crossed the line. The word 'worship' is reserved for God Almighty. Not flesh and blood.
agreed. i would never use that word for a person, except i was responding to @yidposhut who used that word and seemed to use it to mean revere or look up to. but hence my quotes. in context i think i responded well
Idk what you're talking about. We're probably on the same page. But impressionable people like children and teenagers who are setting up their worldview are usually much more b&w. Pacing that complete immersion in Torah is not the ultimate is a bad and wrong message which affects an entire worldview down the line
Everyone knows there is a leadership problem in the yeshivish/chareidi community (which probably stems more from the lack of "community" more than anything else - anyone in our world with a solid shul and rav has no issue here) but we still are part of this community because to us it represents true Judaism. The reason why anyone leaves (like you) has nothing to do with leadership problems; rather because they disagree with (I would term it "don't get") the hashkafa. You're conflating two things.
"Everyone knows there is a leadership problem in the yeshivish/chareidi community". Can you explain further? One of the key aspects of Charedi hashkafah, repeated over and over, is the need be mevatel daas to the Gedolim. I would seem to be that if you think (in your daas balabas) that there is a leadership problem then you disagree to some extent with the Charedi hashkafah.
Setting that aside, what do you mean by "The reason why anyone leaves ... has nothing to do with leadership problems; rather because they disagree with ... the hashkafa." Even outside the Charedi world, the leaders of a group have a large hand in defining the philosophy of the group. What distinction are you making here?
to the first point, i guess i would explain like i said in the parenthesis that there is a community problem amongst the chareidim. in lakewood for example, (except for those shuls that have chashuve, accepted rabbanim who are manhig their shuls which binds those specific kehilos together) there is very little cohesiveness. it's just a bunch of people doing their own thing. everyone knows how to learn and how to look up a mishna berura and pasken the daily shailos, everyone is their own rav and posek. and perhaps many or most of them are learned enough to do that. but the downside is that there is no community. in less "lakewoody" places, like much of monsey, passaic, baltimore, cleveland and on there are adhesive communities which are bound together by the rabbonim. in lakewood all there is are the roshei yeshiva shlit'a and the four or five big poskim, and they each have some people who are very close to them but for the community at large there is little kesher with them.
these rabanim also have come out with machaos and bans about some very silly things which were led by kanaim who have nothing better to do with their lives, and this has been highly off-putting for many. rabonim all across america disagreed with their positions in many cases. i'm not sure what to o about that
i'm not getting into the topic of daas torah now at length, and it is obviously a complicated subject, beyond this comment section. but it's not what we've been seeing. i happen to be of the opinion that slifkin is right about a lot of his criticisms, but it's coming from the wrong place, hence ineffective. if only he would also appreciate what we are about - torah and avodah - and talk from that perspective. otherwise, it's easy for the liberal to be overly liberal about a conservative system which he doesn't understand to begin with.
the chareidi community has a lot of chesronos, almost by definition of conservatism, but there are too many maalos and authentic ideas that overall they are still the winning party for God's mission.
in a sense, the leaders are great at leading the basic hashkafa, (instilling proper values etc.) but there is so much bipartisanship in specific issues (such as taking those values too far פשוטו של מקרא being a good example), along with a lot of kanaus and misinformation (or rather, disinformation) that the leadership is at best uninformed. what is needed is better close-knit communities of people with personal guidance, as klal yisroel has always done. for the "hadavar hagadol" we go higher up on the chain but in general the leadership is supposed to be sarei asara, chamishim and meos.
not exactly sure what you were asking at the end, if you can please explain...?
(thanks, i love our dialogues and your input, sorry i never responded last time, i'll try but as always, a lot of the material needs like full essays to explain, i assume on both sides. because at the bottom of a lot of these discussions is deeper more nuanced ideas that are beyond a comment section. you can always email me at davidschulmannn@gmail.com...)
Well said on all points.
Thanks man!
I wish there were more outspoken people (like you, me, leib shachar, ash) who are "yeshivish" but understand the other side strongly and where we need to improve. But not at the expense of losing what most important
Its funny that you put me, ash and leib shachar together because IRL we are friends..
that's hilarious!! 😂
100%.
I feel like IM by default slaps back at RNS.
While that is understandable, they lose people that way because it looks like any legitimate point is dealt with trolling and ad hominem attacks.
I'm on IMs side for most issues but I think we can have genuine responses that acknowledge our flaws while still believing that our system still has the best shot at yielding good jews.
IM was meant to be a slap back so i guess they're doing their job. but they do have some really excellent articles, anti-slifk non-withstanding
same, possibly more than you. (i liked their science take better than Ash's for example, even though it is extreme, i think it's the truth)
"everyone is their own rav and posek"
I have noticed that as well. Personally, I have to regularly ask shilahs of the community rav. Even though I am half way through my third daf yomi cycle and have learned about half of Yerushalmi. Simply learning a lot of gemara doesn't make one a posek, especially for onesself.
What is 'true Judaism'? What happened in Bovel with no yeshivish/charedi community. Or numerous other communities in the past and round the world? Did they not practice 'True Judaism'? None of them?
Is nepotism, gur and gur infighting, Rav Shmuel Aurbach's crowd rioting, minyan factories, long glamorous sheitels 'true Judaism'? Is (and this is the latest fad apparently advertised in Mishpacha) an smell consultant to ensure your home smells beautiful, true Judaism? What about looking for every loophole in the book (let's stop at loophole shall we) to cream as much in the way of benefits as possible from the 'goyim', torah Judaism? Is refusing to teach boys elementary skills to earn parnossoh, torah judaism?
Do you ever take a step back and THINK about things?
If course there are issues in the chareidi/yeshivish world, though they are hardly as bad as your make it out to be. In every community there are tops middles and bottoms. I assume you agree the tops of our community are of the best tops a Jewish community can produce. People like reb Yaakov, reb Moshe and reb ahron. In my opinion the middles, again like in any community, are average in what they do, but because the message of the community is of the priorities I believe to be correct, the average in such a community is averagely faring those responsibilities best. In this regard, assuming the chareidi ideals are correct, we will have a better net average even amongst the middle class (who are the majority) because the ideals are correct - as opposed to a different community, with which we believe stress the wrong ideals, the average will be excellent in those professed ideals, at the expense of what we believe to be the utmost true and proper.
As far as your q about that there were no chareidim back then, well, sure. But there were none of any of us back then either. The question is which one of us is most closely correct in the efforts of doing what they did, labels aside. We believe they what we profess what's most important in Judaism as what was always most important.
And that is delving into God's word with all our ability, being careful about His commandments and trying to gain fear of Heaven; ie connecting with with God. I believe the chareidim, despite all their problems, have their priorities straight about what's the absolutely most important, and by extension have the best average in these areas.
If you disagree with the chareidi premise about which priorities and ideals are the most important, that's one thing but as always, lets not hide behind the issues and conflate the problems in the community with what the community really is.
" though they are hardly as bad as your make it out to be"
You are missing the point. It's not about bad or good. It's about the schizophrenic self-contradictory behaviour which is a feature, not a bug.
The same magazine that waffles endlessly about fealty to gedolim and torah will happily host ads for long glamarous sheitels, fine wines and feature recipes for luxury fine desserts. The same siyum or tzedoko fundraise that will claim all sorts of 'ma'ales in torah' etc will also be advertised as having a top singer and gourmet buffet to attract the crowds. Those in charedi society with money are as into gashmiyous as a typical goy with money. I don't see much ideal there. I see a lot of walking the walk and talking the talk.
I get your point, but I would say it's a feature more of being in America or in a western society and being human beings who are lazy and baalei taiva, not a feature of being a chareidi. The modern Orthodox society also has gashmius issues. Sometimes absolutely kneged halacha, such as instead sheitels too long it's not connecting hair at all, it's sleeves too short or too much tv and movies.
"The modern Orthodox society also has gashmius issues"
Yes, but they don't claim to be 'true Judaism' like you did a few hours ago. Charedim claim to be the authentic torah jews, sheivet levi blah blah blah but once you drill down its complete, self-congratulatory, nonsense. Some charedi individuals are indeed lamed vav niks, but as a society, there is nothing special about them (other than their clothing). Some are good, some are bad, some are truly dishonest, some are violent and some are tzadikim.
They just have different faults to other groups, but the difference is they happily overlook their faults and claim they are 'torah jews' like you just did. The modox make no such claims.
They don't claim to have true Judaism?? So let them do teshuva and start following true Judaism!
Isn't the question here about ideals and not people?
Minyan factories ARE convenient for busy people, espeically when they have to say kaddish.
Busy people? On the contrary they are full of people who don't seem to have much to do all day. Busy people generally don't daven shacharis at 11am.
Fantastic article We all attended yesterday’s rally. Was great to feel like we are a part of something bigger. Unfortunately very few on the right attended.
No offense, but if you think that people are going to take you as an example of a successful hashkafa switching, you are seriously deluded. It's hard to think of a better case of what NOT to do. Can't you come up with an example of somebody who switched hashkafos and still remains an authentic committed Torah Jew, rather than a bitter middle-aged man who spends half his time vigorously denying Torah fundamentals and the other half attacking Torah Jews?
I can confidently say that I, and countless friends and family of mine, have seen Rabbi Slifkin as a huge success in growth in Torah, as we followed his journey and watched him grow. He has been and remains an inspiration for us all. He provides a brave connection to yiddishkeit, in contrast with the ubiquitous intellectual cowardice in the frum world , for so many people and it serves as a zechus for him. May he continue to spread Torah and inspire us all.
Can you honestly say you would have done the same if you suffered as he did? And prefacing your disrespectful attack on Rabbi Slifkin with an insincere “no offense” and then proceeding to deliberately offend is a transparently dishonest way of engaging in mud-slinging rather than true discourse.
The problem is, you guys define Reform Judaism as "growth in Torah". I have no problem admitting he unfortunately caused many people to go off the derech, thankfully they are a tiny percentage compared to the many our kiruv organizations have brought back and he hasn't made a dent in the frum growth rate.
I have no idea what I would do if I suffered like he did, but if you look at his history, it's absolutely clear it was largely self inflicted. He should have backed down, but was too haughty.
Reform Judaism. Like those who have reformed the simple meaning of:
האחיכם יבואו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה?
To mean the opposite of what it obviously means in order to defend the indefensible and let others fight and be killed to defend your communities while their only risk is getting a cramp in their legs from sitting on their bums for too long a period.
Exactly. Reform doesn't care about halacha, what the Torah actually means, etc. They just view pesukim as platitudes upon which they can unload their secular values. Case in point.
How convenient that the gross twisting of a clear directive allows you to sit on your bum while others risk their lives to protect you.
And how disgusting when the dati Leumi community are showing what real mesirut nefesh is and all you can do is call them reform. I’m guessing shame is not something you are able to feel because if it was you’d realize that the best action for you to take would be to keep a lid on it.
Only a "clear directive" if you read the pesukim grossly out of context, and especially the halachic context. Typical for Reform. Never called datiim Reform.
I appreciate the mesiras nefesh of the dati soldiers and actually even the secular ones. Slifkin is not really dati, but much closer to reform, and of course never served.
Many well respected Rabbanim gave their haskama to his book
They removed it (except for one) when threatened by the the Chareidi leadership.This is your standard for defaming RNS! Your utter disgusting behaviour says what you are.The cry "it's Reform," is the cry "it's the wolf". Of no meaning or value!
I think you replied to the wrong thread
What drivel are you on about? Reform Judaism? You clearly know nothing about rabbi slifkin, and less about the world. I'm surprised you are allowed to use the internet, does your rabbi know you have wifi?
Yes, Reform Judaism. His philosophy is almost indistinguishable. He has written things strongly suggesting halacha is optional, just one example.
You clearly know nothing about reform Judaism, and I'm beginning to doubt you know anything about Orthodox Judaism either.
You probably know more about the nuances of Reform Judaism than I do, but I know more about actual Judaism. Fair?
"His philosophy is almost indistinguishable"
Either you haven't been reading his actual writings, or you don't understand him. Return to the beit midrash and learn some more before embarrassing yourself further.
I have read more of his writings than you did
How ridiculous you are.
Have you ever heard about מחלוקת. I have never read anything where he said 'halacha is optional. Your crooked interpretation.
"The problem is, you guys define Reform Judaism as "growth in Torah"."
You have until Yom Kippur to atone for this motzi shem ra. Nobody here is defending the Reform Movement.
"the many our kiruv organizations have brought back"
The few our kiruv organizations have brought back. See the sad statistics from the Pew surveys. Almost all Orthodox Jews in the US grew up Orthodox.
You either do not understand what reform judaism is or are slandering Rabbi Slifkin. Either way it says a lot about you.
I explained one similarity, there are many more.
$45 is now donated to Rabbi Slifkin’s museum in your honor. Thank you for your continued support. Your support will help educate impressionable young minds in need of a rationalist approach to Judaism. Congratulations!
"spends half his time vigorously denying Torah fundamentals and the other half attacking Torah Jews". In which half does founding and running a Torah museum, getting a doctorate and publishing books fit?
He hasn't been writing too many books recently, due to all the time he spends rabble rousing dummies like you.
I don't know; he published yet another book in 2020 and the museum takes a lot of time. But I'm guessing that your comment was not a serious one.
No I was serious. He was much more productive before he started his rabble rousing antisemitic career. I haven't seen the book you mention, but I think it's basically a compilation of articles and ideas that he's written about on his blog.
His last serious book was the encyclopedia of Torah animals, not sure the year it was originally published. He's written here that he has no time to finish the second volume. I mentioned to him that if he would take a step back from his KKK activism, he would find time to finish it. So far he hasn't taken my advice
Have you been to the Museum?
Hmm, well the published works are almost all in both categories I mentioned, and it doesn't seem like he spends much time "running" the museum. Unless you count arranging lavish parties with octopus ice cream and roast peacock for his wealthy friends.
You sound jealous, were you not offered an invitation? Or is it that you can't stand to see people enjoy the breadth of the world that G-d has given to us?
According to him, it was natural selection evolution, for starters. He has very limited space for God in his philosophy, that's for sure. He doesn't even believe God protects the Land of Israel.
Ok. I'm not getting dragged into a conversation with someone who doesn't understand the most basic high school curriculum. BH, you have rich parents to support you, so you can safely live in ignorance.
For us, the fact that God created the world is basic pre-school curriculum. Unfortunately in your circles, you don't get to it by high school, college, or usually the rest of your lives.
" God protects the Land of Israel."
Neither did our Prophets, or Chazal. I totally understand your not understanding the former, as your yeshiva probably never taught navi and you probably have never learned Jeremiah, but the concept of God withdrawing protection is definitely a thing in Chazal.
Fool, when God withdraws his protection, the IDF doesn't help either.
I believe that you are wrong on both counts. R Slifkin states support for the fact of evolution, but expresses doubts about the Darwin's theory of natural selection. And he believes that God protects the Land of Israel. (With the proviso that given the multiple murderous ethnic cleansings we've faced both in an outside of Israel, I don't think that anyone thinks that it is axiomatic that we will protected now from the same, except among the RZ who consider this to definitely be reishit tsmichat geulateinu.)
Gedolim themselves sometimes say that bad things happening in the Land of Israel is punishment for some sin or sins. That is a withdrawal of protection.
Fundraising is a big part of any such institution. I once visited R Meiselman in NY for a son who was looking to go to TOMO and he was busy arranging a fundraising event for the Yeshiva. R Slifkin also actually has some hand in the day to day and gave a tour on the day I was there in the museum last. Besides the fact that he created the whole thing from scratch. All of that takes enormous time and effort over many years. Go ask someone who heads and institution and find out.
Continue to embarrass yourself with your ignorance.
In any case, you have clearly shown that it is you, and not Rabbi Slifkin, who think that halachah is optional. I have now lost track of the number of times you have spouted motzi shem ra here.
" Unless you count arranging lavish parties with octopus ice cream and roast peacock for his wealthy friends."
You're not making sense. You're implying that lavishness somehow detracts from industriousness.
No, never implied that. But with him, it's just lavishness, no industriousness underneath.
$60 will now be donated to Rabbi Slifkin’s museum in your honor. Thank you for your ongoing support.
So then you are not objecting at all to the transformation. You believe that even as a Charedi his works were kefirah. His transformation was correct and successful in your opinion. He went to be part of frum society who you deem heretics.
His transformation was well under way and probably mostly complete before he doffed the black hat.
So again, you are just attacking him as a always heretic having nothing to do with his move from Charedi to RZ and just fooling the Chareidi crowds who used to publish and buy his book until they came around to what you somehow already know.
$55 will now be donated to Rabbi Slifkin’s museum in your honor. Thank you for your ongoing support.
Please keep track of how much I owe as I am now matching you. I can't keep up with all this but will check back after Shabbat.
RNS is a believing Jew and your disgusting מוציא שם רע against R N S shows your low despicable character.RNS believes in certain concepts and relate to many authoritative sources.If you disagree point it out with support for your argument.How dare you accuse RNS of essentially not being under the religious canopy.A terrible accusation placing a Jew out of the religious community. If you have serious criticism of his ideas explain why they are so politely and delicately. RNS obviously thinks he is within our religious community.
Plenty of people have disagreed with him, using strong arguments. He has banned them all, because he fears them.
$15 will be donated to Rabbi Slifkin’s museum in your honor. Thank you for your donation.
Figures like R' Aharon Lopiansky and Chofetz Chaim represent a more balanced part of the yeshiva world in America.
And R' Lopiansky was at the rally.
Yes, as were the Chofetz Chaim yeshivos. Incidentally, the entire Bais Yaakov Baltimore also went. I guess they could handle it, but the little princelings from Lakewood couldn't for some reason.
Maybe the students at Chofetz Chaim and Baltimore Beis Yaakov are more grounded in frumkeit than the vulnerable students in Lakewood.
As much as I strongly disagree with most of RNS's content,this post is unfortunately accurate.
Accurate in a sense that it's worth switching communities?
I personally am uneasy about the Yeshiva community not joining, and even more when I am aware of those among who supported it but were silenced. But as Ash says, the overall outcome and advantages is still worth all the problems it comes with. (Sorry if I misquoted that, It's been a while and my memory isn't great.)
And I have the same take as Ash...although we have are issues...advantages outweigh the disadvantages
I like putting it this way: If you put your kid through the Chareidi system you will get him far in Torah but you might need to tutor him to be up to par in some areas of education. If you put your kid through the [American] Modern system he'll be up to par in education but it'll be a lot harder getting him up to par in the Torah department. I.E. compare chareidi law grads to yeshiva flip outs.
Exactly 👍🏻
Accurate in the sense that alot of jews feel disenfranchised.
I personally don't have an issue with the chareidi community because I don't see it as one large community, rather as a bunch of sub communities under the umbrella term " chareidi".
There are many gedolim...follow the ones you resonate with.
In unrelated but related news...I didn't see Reb Shmuel Kamenetzky signing against attending...
The real question is if you agree with the צד השוה ביניהם.
Not sure what you mean
Meaning even the more moderate chareidim at the end of the day have a similar תפיסה and view judaism in a similar way as the "mainstream" litvishe gedolim. Lakewood and williamsburg, although they have different emphasis', are still generally similar enough to attend the same עצרת התפילות and to not attend the same events.
I agreed
What view and תפיסה is that exactly? How do moderate chareidim, or even yeshivish chareidim view Judaism differently than serious datiim (as opposed to the liberal ones)?
I agree with many of Rabbi Slifkin's points, but i think this piece was way too simplistic. Although some Rabbonim of the Agudah discouraged going to the rally, there were in fact many Rabbonim in the Yeshivish world who encouraged people to go. Even on the Moetzet itself, most of the 13 Rabbonim did not sign the letter. Rav Lopiansky, Chafatz Chaim Rabbeim, and the Roshei Yeshivah of Shaar Hatorah of Queens (both of which are highly respected in the Yeshivish world), are other examples. To suggest that the rally is a reason to switch from being Yeshivish to Modern Orthodox is a a big and unnecessary jump. All that is needed is to become part of a more moderate Yeshivish Shul/community. I think the rally should be viewed not as a disagreement between Chareidim and MO, but rather between different parts of the Yeshivish world.
Right. A father in Monsey will remove his daughter from Bais Yaakov and enroll her in Frisch because rabbanim said not to go to the rally. Now for the next rally she will be able to ride on the bus to Washington with her boyfriend.
Or better yet, a mother in LA will take her son from MBY and enroll him in YULA so that he can have the girls cheer him on in the Samson gym (oh sorry - SAMSON ATHLETIC CENTER.
I agree about the lack of leadership. But to conclude this is worth switching communities for, I don’t think that’s necessarily fair. Also, Rav Shechter and Willig both wear black hats… let’s not make this about switching black hats. 90% of Roshei Yeshiva at YU wear black hats so either they’re “Haredi” or we need to drop the black hat from the community switching conversation.
Respectfully,
One Jew
"90% of our nation understands that it requires genuine achdus. Therefore, I will continue to bash Charedim! The beatings will continue until morale improves!"
(BTW, 290,000 people, all squashed into one little location, and planned in less than two weeks. Pretty dangerous, what? Does the Federation also "not grasp" that running such events require "planning and professional guidance", or is it only Charedim who are too stoopid to understand that?)
I think that you are misinformed. The national mall is huge and has hosted events with 1+ million attendees. They also don't control DC and had to follow all the regular safety procedures in hosting the event; procedures which were set by 3rd parties.
There's also been gigantic hilula's by kever rashbi for decades, with no accident.
Sounds like you won't answer so I'll address your point. Safety regulation involve driving down the chances of a disaster to very low numbers, much lower that you can detect with scores of events. The fact that there is no disaster the first 50 times means nothing; you want to drive that down to one in hundreds of thousand or millions or more. In fact my son went in years before the disaster and reported to me that the conditions were not safe. It was just too crowded. There are known ways to minimize risk even if they are not perfect, and limitations on density are a big part of it.
Before we go to the next topic, did I address your concern about the safety of the Israel Rally in Dc?
Dream on doc 🤣
Your advice is inconsiderate. There are some people who identify charedi who become disillusioned that may find a major change to a different community to be (a) the right thing for them and (b) much less likely - the right thing for their whole family. But a non-recommendation to attend this rally is a pretty lousy reason to so substanitally change your identification. It would have to be based on years of exploration and finding that the truth of existence is found in this other community rather than in your own. WAY more people simply need to meet other charedim - and there are many including many rabbanim and rabbeim - who are very much not in line with Israeli charedim and not even with many of the American gedolim but still find themselves solidly within the "yeshiva world". In my view, the most important consideration may be that no community does half a good a job at successfully educating its children to a meaningful life. As they get older, they can be given more specific guidance to address the kinds of issues you raise. Leaving any community can be devastating to a family and even to one's future family (when they are not ready to raise children in a different world). Please give good balanced advice instead of taking every opportunity to trash all charedim.
R' Willig also played his guitar on the way down. :-)
"Switching communitys" is a myopic approach. It upholds the idea that one must fundamentally adhere to all dogmas of his community. And since there are dichotomous communities, it's either Camp A or B or absolute hashkafik homelessness.
In reality, a society should have a healthy balance between individualism and collectivism; we "generally" adhere to certain collective dogmas, but carve room in our own spaces. This is where having a personal rav is important. This is what the "black hat" crowd does in America; there are varying hashkafas (working education etc.) and we operate under the general umbrella of mesorah yidden or whatever.
The disillusionment comes when people realize that their own collectivism/individualism balance is not aligned with the leaders of the umbrella group, and they see a misalignment; "I guess I'm not really part of this community and don't share it's leaders value."
The truth is that you DO share the community's values, but you just never recognized that the Gedolim weren't really the leaders of said community.
The Moetzes: Consistently backward in coming forward.
Rabbis Schachter and Willig wear black hats! And went to the rally!!!