Rather than being on the defensive, it is necessary to go on the attack against these people. Ask them if there was a woman drowning, would they rescue her or would they be more concerned about issues of tzniut, negia and marit ayin and going off the derekh? I would be surprised if more than a few said they would rescue her themselves. More likely they would look for a non charedi to do the job so they wouldn't be tainted or they would claim they can't swim (probably true in the charedi community despite the halakhic obligation imposed on a father). Then tell them they fit the exact definition of a chasid shoteh according to the Gemara.
"would they rescue her or would they be more concerned about issues of tzniut, negia and marit ayin and going off the derekh"
Decades ago I heard serious conversations about this question among young modern orthodox baalei tshuvot. Not charedim. I was horrified. It isn't a question!!!!
The event should have taken place in the Shomron, with no army protection, next to an Arab village. If they believe the army isn't necessary, put your money where your mouth is.
Rabbi Feldman himself made yerida, why doesn't he encourage "serious bnei Torah " to do that?
"Jews would live here in peace with the Arabs, just as they did before Zionism"
I guess the charedi schools don't teach history. The victims of the pogroms of 1517 and 1834 aren't around to argue with them, nor the victims of the expulsion of 1720. All before the modern Zionist movement got moving in the late 19th century.
"He didn't care."
We also have a big problem here in the US with denial of objective facts.
I attended with the aim of asking challenging questions, though after announcing questions would be at the end, the speakers immediately left the stage not allowing any questions. I interrupted twice to challenge false statistics, like most dati soldiers become secular during or as result of the army. The talks were low level, mostly political with lots of slander against Israel, the courts, the army and even the chareidi units in the army. Lots of anecdotes, false statistics, focus on how, why and by who Israel was founded. No actual Torah or sources. They argued the so called chareidi units don't have gedolim paskening for them, and most the participants go off the derech. Even if the units are currently for males only, who's to say the supreme court won't force them to take women in the future. There was an acknowledgement that an army is needed, but no chareidi should risk, even minimally, his spirituality by joining it. Quite a nauseating evening.
Arguments like "... the only reason that there is need for an army is that there is a State of Israel; if it didn’t exist, Jews would live here in peace with the Arabs..." have a very simple answer. Long before there was a State of Israel, the Arabs hated us. In the 1920s there were a number of pogroms in Israel against the Jews by the Arabs, the most famous, of course, was the massacre in Chevron in 1929.
I used to think that things would begin to change in the Haredi community once the older generation of gedolim passed from the scene. Now I see that this seems unlikely, and that a significant number of the younger folks have been successfully brainwashed. Also, I seriously doubt that every single dati-leumi army veteran has gone off the derech, i.e., is no longer shomer mitzvot. But even assuming that too many of them have gone off, why is the risk thought to be as high or higher for Haredim? If it is, what does that say about the soundness of the Haredi system?
The Eitza that R. Feldman is seeking is very simple and even a koton shebokotonim like me knows the answer: R. Feldman said that a Ben Torah cannot possibly be drafted for 3 years into a secular atmosphere and remain frum. He is completely correct. Fortunately no Ben Torah should ever consider drafting into such a unit (unless of course he is very strong willed and qualifies for an elite unit, such as pilot’s school) and the answer is to study in one of the Chareidi Hesder yeshivos and draft together with his entire chevreh al taharas hakoydesh and not be exposed to anything that is slightly anti-Torah rather all shaylas and policy decisions are made by Chareidi Gedolei Yisroel such as HaRav Osher Weiss, Shlit”a.
They are neither. Their leadership may be however. As to the boys and their families, I will give you a (bad) analogy. In the conservative movement (in which I grew up) at funerals people did not tear kriah but tore a ribbon. I asked the rabbi.. who I like/respect to this day...why he just didn't "require" kriah. He told me he gives them a choice. No one ever chose the former. Why? Because if they were both acceptable alternatives, why choose the worse one.
They didn’t tear a ribbon they wore a ribbon and that actually is more a reform thing based upon Victorian mourning rituals. And your analogy is indeed bad. We are taking about ruining a suit versus life and death situations.
Here is a side point. Why do they think that boys who go to the army become non-orthodox? It used to be -- many years ago -- that the "thinking" was the army actively tried to secularize the soldiers. From my children who were in the army -- they never ran into anything like that. In any event, it is not longer 1950. So -- the second reason that kids defect is -- that absent the strictures of the community -- and left to their own devices the boys leave. Could be? (In the US -- we have the same concerns about secular universities -- and many of us will not "let" or at least not encourage our children to go to secular universities for that reason alone). Meaning, they want to leave but the social cost is to high. Being in the army lowers that cost. The answer is religious units and better "chinuch." One more side point. The Charedim have taken a page from the Palesitinians (or vice versa). There is litteraly no public dissent in that community. None. If it is -- and I have not heard any -- it is quashed. (I assume that the Charedim dont get murdered but there is a cost). And because there is no dissent, there is no real dialogue. Instead of viewing the war -- and seeing how horrible it is to sit on the sidelines -- they have doubled down. The rhetoric is harsher and there is no movement. I am not sure there is any solution. (I know there are "ideas" -- economic sanctions, jail, voting rights etc.). I will say again I am not sure there is any solution.
Rather than being on the defensive, it is necessary to go on the attack against these people. Ask them if there was a woman drowning, would they rescue her or would they be more concerned about issues of tzniut, negia and marit ayin and going off the derekh? I would be surprised if more than a few said they would rescue her themselves. More likely they would look for a non charedi to do the job so they wouldn't be tainted or they would claim they can't swim (probably true in the charedi community despite the halakhic obligation imposed on a father). Then tell them they fit the exact definition of a chasid shoteh according to the Gemara.
"would they rescue her or would they be more concerned about issues of tzniut, negia and marit ayin and going off the derekh"
Decades ago I heard serious conversations about this question among young modern orthodox baalei tshuvot. Not charedim. I was horrified. It isn't a question!!!!
The event should have taken place in the Shomron, with no army protection, next to an Arab village. If they believe the army isn't necessary, put your money where your mouth is.
Rabbi Feldman himself made yerida, why doesn't he encourage "serious bnei Torah " to do that?
"Jews would live here in peace with the Arabs, just as they did before Zionism"
I guess the charedi schools don't teach history. The victims of the pogroms of 1517 and 1834 aren't around to argue with them, nor the victims of the expulsion of 1720. All before the modern Zionist movement got moving in the late 19th century.
"He didn't care."
We also have a big problem here in the US with denial of objective facts.
I attended with the aim of asking challenging questions, though after announcing questions would be at the end, the speakers immediately left the stage not allowing any questions. I interrupted twice to challenge false statistics, like most dati soldiers become secular during or as result of the army. The talks were low level, mostly political with lots of slander against Israel, the courts, the army and even the chareidi units in the army. Lots of anecdotes, false statistics, focus on how, why and by who Israel was founded. No actual Torah or sources. They argued the so called chareidi units don't have gedolim paskening for them, and most the participants go off the derech. Even if the units are currently for males only, who's to say the supreme court won't force them to take women in the future. There was an acknowledgement that an army is needed, but no chareidi should risk, even minimally, his spirituality by joining it. Quite a nauseating evening.
Arguments like "... the only reason that there is need for an army is that there is a State of Israel; if it didn’t exist, Jews would live here in peace with the Arabs..." have a very simple answer. Long before there was a State of Israel, the Arabs hated us. In the 1920s there were a number of pogroms in Israel against the Jews by the Arabs, the most famous, of course, was the massacre in Chevron in 1929.
See my comment about much earlier pogroms.
I used to think that things would begin to change in the Haredi community once the older generation of gedolim passed from the scene. Now I see that this seems unlikely, and that a significant number of the younger folks have been successfully brainwashed. Also, I seriously doubt that every single dati-leumi army veteran has gone off the derech, i.e., is no longer shomer mitzvot. But even assuming that too many of them have gone off, why is the risk thought to be as high or higher for Haredim? If it is, what does that say about the soundness of the Haredi system?
The Eitza that R. Feldman is seeking is very simple and even a koton shebokotonim like me knows the answer: R. Feldman said that a Ben Torah cannot possibly be drafted for 3 years into a secular atmosphere and remain frum. He is completely correct. Fortunately no Ben Torah should ever consider drafting into such a unit (unless of course he is very strong willed and qualifies for an elite unit, such as pilot’s school) and the answer is to study in one of the Chareidi Hesder yeshivos and draft together with his entire chevreh al taharas hakoydesh and not be exposed to anything that is slightly anti-Torah rather all shaylas and policy decisions are made by Chareidi Gedolei Yisroel such as HaRav Osher Weiss, Shlit”a.
I truly wonder if Hereidim who refuse to serve are malignantly evil and selfish, or just plain ignorant or a combination of the two…
They are neither. Their leadership may be however. As to the boys and their families, I will give you a (bad) analogy. In the conservative movement (in which I grew up) at funerals people did not tear kriah but tore a ribbon. I asked the rabbi.. who I like/respect to this day...why he just didn't "require" kriah. He told me he gives them a choice. No one ever chose the former. Why? Because if they were both acceptable alternatives, why choose the worse one.
They didn’t tear a ribbon they wore a ribbon and that actually is more a reform thing based upon Victorian mourning rituals. And your analogy is indeed bad. We are taking about ruining a suit versus life and death situations.
Here is a side point. Why do they think that boys who go to the army become non-orthodox? It used to be -- many years ago -- that the "thinking" was the army actively tried to secularize the soldiers. From my children who were in the army -- they never ran into anything like that. In any event, it is not longer 1950. So -- the second reason that kids defect is -- that absent the strictures of the community -- and left to their own devices the boys leave. Could be? (In the US -- we have the same concerns about secular universities -- and many of us will not "let" or at least not encourage our children to go to secular universities for that reason alone). Meaning, they want to leave but the social cost is to high. Being in the army lowers that cost. The answer is religious units and better "chinuch." One more side point. The Charedim have taken a page from the Palesitinians (or vice versa). There is litteraly no public dissent in that community. None. If it is -- and I have not heard any -- it is quashed. (I assume that the Charedim dont get murdered but there is a cost). And because there is no dissent, there is no real dialogue. Instead of viewing the war -- and seeing how horrible it is to sit on the sidelines -- they have doubled down. The rhetoric is harsher and there is no movement. I am not sure there is any solution. (I know there are "ideas" -- economic sanctions, jail, voting rights etc.). I will say again I am not sure there is any solution.