Come on. It's not uncommon now to see 4 generations of dati leùmi families, first generation is serious poalei agudah yisroel types but the kippah gets smaller and smaller down the generation and sometimes the dog appears in generation 4. And I know kippah size is not the be all and end all. But it's highly indicative.
Yep, once they get a dog, they're clearly lost to the Jewish People. Charedim might not care to help Jews under attack, but at least they don't have dogs!
What's the connection?? Seriously now, I was thinking you guys were onto something if you'd speak out the question of whether shrinking kippas and dog ownership is indicative of weakening mitzvah observance. Why bring his wife and daughter into this?
It's also common to see the reverse. Mothers wearing pants and no head covering, and their daughters in long skirts and full head covering in some West Bank settlement. People have free will, some will go every direction in any society.
(Also, treating "having a dog" as evidence of secularism is just dumb)
Dogs are great - they did not bark when yidden left mitzriem.
Also dogs are very loyal, they protect the family and they take heir responsibility very serious. That is more then you can say about the Charedim. Go figure!
Plus I don't think you've been around 4 generations, and spending all that time sneaking around with measuring tape sizing up the srugies. It's kind of creepy.
In other words, in theory you might know one who produced four generations of incremental kipa shrinkage culminating in a dog. In practice you may know one, or maybe two.
But I still think you've haven't been around that long to honestly conclude that "it's not that uncommon".
The truth is that going OTD is not new, and has existed for millennia. And it doesn't take 4 generations. Rav Ovadia Yosef and Rav Shach, following in Moshe's footsteps, did it in two. There always remains free choice.
You're attitude reflects a rather complacent confidence that you (and/or the Charedi world) have solved all problems and have acquired a multi-generation immunity from apostasy. You haven't. That overconfidence is paralleled by the fact that there is no plan for will happen in four generations- what is the plan for an Israel in which a huge percentage of the population neither defend nor contribute to the economy? There is no plan. There is just overconfidence and complacency. No worries about the fourth generation. And that's just barking mad.
Well, dogs are mentioned, with praise, in Tanach. Cats are not mentioned once. (We know they had them; they're just never named.) So I have bad news for you...
If their economic situation is so dire, then the Rambam's description of ויזכה לו בעה"ז דבר המספיק לו is not applicable to them, and hence they are not those of whom the Rambam is talking about. And thus לשיטותיהם they must serve in the army.
So I guess American supporters of Israeli charedism are shallow enough that they need something physical- say, being in the presence of a 95-year-old man, often giving him their "sage advice" to donate. They can't just get an emailed request and send money back.
It may seem cruel to you to have an elderly sage shlepped around on a grueling fundraising tour. But what you interpret as cruelty is simply evidence of how desperate the situation is. And it's that desperation that's going to bring in the big bucks. Anything less that a full display of pending catastrophe would shortchange the fundraising.
And before you get indignant over the exploitation of the infirm old man, just remember how effective $uch tear-jerking exploitation was for Jerry Lewis.
They are indifferent to the suffering of the Jewish people because they are NOT JEWISH, any more than the Samaritans are Jewish despite having an almost identical written Torah, or any more than the Christians are Jewish despite sharing the "Old Testament".
You're right. I should have related to your opinion in and of itself. It just came across as endemic to the Slifkin fans. As if the blog was encouraging these toxic ideations.
"They" are the Haredim, who are the subject of Rav Slifkin's article. As to what makes someone Jewish, here it's more a matter of what makes someone NOT Jewish. Last time I looked, Jews were monotheists. Haredim worship more than one god: the Real One + one or more "Rabbis" (an Admor or alleged Gedolim).
The hareidi focus and devotion to a clearly inadequate and likely diminished leader certainly seems to have similarities to the Catholics (not lehavdil) wonder who’s going to be part of the conclave to elect the next gadol (tiny g) when he passes….
All Torah study without work will result in waste and will cause sinfulness. Anyone who works for the community should work for the sake of Heaven, for the merit of their [the community members’s] forefathers will help him, and their righteousness endures forever. -- Pirkei Avot Chapter 2, Mishna 2(b)
I have a good idea - why don't they get money from the WZO instead of breathing down Americans, who have no money at all thanks to Trump's tariffs,, backs?
Since when is trust and hishtadlus considered antithetical? He's not being hypocritical; you just dont understand what bitachon means to them. Not saying I agree with his militant besmirching of the draft, and certainly not his lack of gratitude for those that are moser nefesh for the nation. But your determination to demonize him is woefully off.
joining the army is not the only form of hishtadlus! Though there are individuals within the Hareidi apologetic camp who throw out lines about bitachon being their reason to remain in learning, it is by far not the hareidi rational for avoiding the army. If צה"ל was run by leaders in the Torah world, you'd see tons of hareidim involved. Once again, I'm not justifying anyone's position, just trying to lend some sanity to these impassioned attempts to demonize the other. And yes, I do believe the majority of hareidim are not cowards, freeloaders, or scholarly nerds, but actually very deeply devoted Jews trying to keep the Torah the best way they know.
You are wrong. They are cowards not to serve. They free load off the government instead of getting an education and supporting themselves and they could not survive as they are in general society.
Re point 3, I think their opposition/indifference stems from 2 main points:
1. A belief based on נפש החיים that only Torah learning (by haredim) keeps the world going, and everything else is meaningless or less effective
2. The yeshivish concept that the highest form of creation is a בן תורה, which is above כלל ישראל, which is above אדם, מדבר then above , צומח then חי. One of the great Musar personalities invented this hierarchy
If so, there is no need to care about anyone "inferior" to the Master Race.
a) What they are unaware of is that there is downtime in the army and in that time many d'l soldiers learn (all the pocket sefarim) so one can have their cake and eat it too.
The reservists were called up again because the leadership in this country is a mixture of incompetent, corrupt, and extremist. The war should have been ended many, many months ago.
Because today’s “Gedolim” are against any charedim serving, whether they learn Torah or not"
B'H it is starting to sink in - THEY SIMPLY ARE NOT GOING -are we finally beginning to understand them. Question: why do we bother to try and convince them? It is basically a waste of time!
Now we have to try to figure out why they took this stance.
A - We are better then the local "Shmoes" of the rest of the population, we are the ULTRA religious
people, we are special and do not have to have the burden of the army.
B - We are scared to risk our lives (everyone is scared) and if we can get out of having to suffer
when some of us will lose their lives,.
C - It is total ARRIGENCE and they will use any shenanigan's to avoid the draft - That is why I am
up to 23 different excuses they use why they do not have to serve. Every country they came into, they try to hoodwink society for their benefits. Basically, How can I get money off everyone else, not work, and also not take on the duty of that country. In other countries they looked at it - -we are taking advantage of the 'Ural" (the goy). Here the arrogance goes up , it is "your own people" and they still do i
So is it SPECIAL - SCARED - or simple ARRIGENCE ??
SAD - What is really sad, they take Hashem's holy Torah, Hashem himself "anu nafshi kesovos y'hovis" and ABUSE it to to their benefit.
Just to comment on one point: While you are correct that generally we cannot rely on bitachon alone, there are exceptional people in history who have done so (the Alter of Novarhadok, for one). But in general, I always tell people, "Before you blame Hashem, first make sure you have made your best effort."
Why is it that Dati Liumi can serve, and not have their torah destroyed, but Haredi Emuna is so weak as to need this extra protection?
Because they'd never admit it, even to themselves, but they're not raising their kids right.
Come on. It's not uncommon now to see 4 generations of dati leùmi families, first generation is serious poalei agudah yisroel types but the kippah gets smaller and smaller down the generation and sometimes the dog appears in generation 4. And I know kippah size is not the be all and end all. But it's highly indicative.
Yep, once they get a dog, they're clearly lost to the Jewish People. Charedim might not care to help Jews under attack, but at least they don't have dogs!
In my experience, having a dog is more a function of living in the country than of religious observance. And haredim don't like wide open spaces.
When did I say anything about 'lost to the Jewish people'?
True, all you said is that it's worse than a shrinking kippah.
No I didn't. Why are you so defensive, ahem? Maybe you've noticed it too....
Look, I'd prefer not to make this personal but you happily publish pictures of you, your wife and your daughter.
What's the connection?? Seriously now, I was thinking you guys were onto something if you'd speak out the question of whether shrinking kippas and dog ownership is indicative of weakening mitzvah observance. Why bring his wife and daughter into this?
Because his daughter shows her arms above the elbows.
You can always remove Substack from your unfiltered phone and then you won’t have to see them…
It's also common to see the reverse. Mothers wearing pants and no head covering, and their daughters in long skirts and full head covering in some West Bank settlement. People have free will, some will go every direction in any society.
(Also, treating "having a dog" as evidence of secularism is just dumb)
What’s wrong with Dogs?
Muslims really dislike dogs. Wouldn't disliking dogs be chukat hagoyim?
I’m a clueless/curious gentile, I have no idea
Some charedim really, really don't like dogs. It's a long and complex story but ultimately silly.
Dogs are great - they did not bark when yidden left mitzriem.
Also dogs are very loyal, they protect the family and they take heir responsibility very serious. That is more then you can say about the Charedim. Go figure!
Yeah, I was wondering where the dog came from. That's bizarre.
Hey, I see lots of pants *and* head coverings.
It obviously means that they became secular Tel-Avivians, which famously changed children for dogs.
Yes, but you don't know whether the mothers wearing pants and no head covering are da'ati le'umi or just completely secular.
Why are you anglicizing the word as "da'ati"? It's דתי, not דעתי.
Because this is a blog.
Non sequitur
You know whether they are observant or not, and whether they have a connection to HaShem is none of your damn business, don’t you….??
Why wouldn't be? All of Israel is responsible for one another.
Which is why Haredim serving in the army is important to us
well, it is his business in terms of analyzing genuine religious sentiment within religious society. It's part of what we commenters do here, no?
Because all the religiosity in a person depends on the cost of the ritual headdress.
Whataboutism.
Plus I don't think you've been around 4 generations, and spending all that time sneaking around with measuring tape sizing up the srugies. It's kind of creepy.
You don't have to be that old to know of four generations of a family.
In other words, in theory you might know one who produced four generations of incremental kipa shrinkage culminating in a dog. In practice you may know one, or maybe two.
But I still think you've haven't been around that long to honestly conclude that "it's not that uncommon".
The truth is that going OTD is not new, and has existed for millennia. And it doesn't take 4 generations. Rav Ovadia Yosef and Rav Shach, following in Moshe's footsteps, did it in two. There always remains free choice.
You're attitude reflects a rather complacent confidence that you (and/or the Charedi world) have solved all problems and have acquired a multi-generation immunity from apostasy. You haven't. That overconfidence is paralleled by the fact that there is no plan for will happen in four generations- what is the plan for an Israel in which a huge percentage of the population neither defend nor contribute to the economy? There is no plan. There is just overconfidence and complacency. No worries about the fourth generation. And that's just barking mad.
I hope you mean that the Yosef and Shach descendants went "off" by charedi standards, because so far as I know they're still religious.
You know all of them?
You crazy they wear small kippas!!
I have a cousin in her 80s who knew her great grandfather and now has great grandkids! Seven generations!!!
Stereo types are not evidence or an argument
Not stereotypes. I've seen it as have others.
No one says you don't see sterotypes.
Oh I see. They got a dog and that’s exactly why charedim let everyone else do the fighting.
We have cats, not dogs. Does that mean we aren't religious?
Well, dogs are mentioned, with praise, in Tanach. Cats are not mentioned once. (We know they had them; they're just never named.) So I have bad news for you...
it's only backhanded praise for not barking at a holy moment. They restrained their normal, coarse nature.
Yes. And die. My nieces brother in law. Noam Ravid of blessed memory. Would so many others have sat and done nothing.
Because they perverted Torah.
They claim that we cant as a whole. Theres tons of OTD in the dati world.
Your premise is mistaken.
How?
Charedi Judaism is about a separate culture. Everything else is commentary.
Serving the army shatters the vanity self-created fantasy project only possible in a separate bubble. "We will have this bubble at all costs!"
If their economic situation is so dire, then the Rambam's description of ויזכה לו בעה"ז דבר המספיק לו is not applicable to them, and hence they are not those of whom the Rambam is talking about. And thus לשיטותיהם they must serve in the army.
Good point!
Reform Judaism is more authentic than Charedi Judaism. At least the former were honest that they were straying from tradition.
Indeed. And Haman was totally "authentic"
So I guess American supporters of Israeli charedism are shallow enough that they need something physical- say, being in the presence of a 95-year-old man, often giving him their "sage advice" to donate. They can't just get an emailed request and send money back.
It may seem cruel to you to have an elderly sage shlepped around on a grueling fundraising tour. But what you interpret as cruelty is simply evidence of how desperate the situation is. And it's that desperation that's going to bring in the big bucks. Anything less that a full display of pending catastrophe would shortchange the fundraising.
And before you get indignant over the exploitation of the infirm old man, just remember how effective $uch tear-jerking exploitation was for Jerry Lewis.
Let the old men go around schnooring at least they are doing something and getting exercise. It is important to get the elderly to exercise!
Should they bring back money they are saving the hard working population to keep more of their own money.
Win / Win here!
They are indifferent to the suffering of the Jewish people because they are NOT JEWISH, any more than the Samaritans are Jewish despite having an almost identical written Torah, or any more than the Christians are Jewish despite sharing the "Old Testament".
wow. You guys are sinking deep. "Not Jewish" - unbelievable
Who are "you guys"? That's MY opinion. One guy. I hope I convince others, but you lack evidence that I have succeeded.
You're right. I should have related to your opinion in and of itself. It just came across as endemic to the Slifkin fans. As if the blog was encouraging these toxic ideations.
Since we're playing the pronoun game, curious who are the "they" that you refer to in your comment?
Also curious, what makes someone Jewish according to your standards?
"They" are the Haredim, who are the subject of Rav Slifkin's article. As to what makes someone Jewish, here it's more a matter of what makes someone NOT Jewish. Last time I looked, Jews were monotheists. Haredim worship more than one god: the Real One + one or more "Rabbis" (an Admor or alleged Gedolim).
You feel that Haredim are all the same and all of one same belief?
חס ושלום. You should learn a bit about what defines Av' Zara... and lashon ha'ra
The hareidi focus and devotion to a clearly inadequate and likely diminished leader certainly seems to have similarities to the Catholics (not lehavdil) wonder who’s going to be part of the conclave to elect the next gadol (tiny g) when he passes….
Of course, Charedism came from Europe (where Christianity flourished), not the Arab world.
All Torah study without work will result in waste and will cause sinfulness. Anyone who works for the community should work for the sake of Heaven, for the merit of their [the community members’s] forefathers will help him, and their righteousness endures forever. -- Pirkei Avot Chapter 2, Mishna 2(b)
I have a good idea - why don't they get money from the WZO instead of breathing down Americans, who have no money at all thanks to Trump's tariffs,, backs?
Oh right
Since when is trust and hishtadlus considered antithetical? He's not being hypocritical; you just dont understand what bitachon means to them. Not saying I agree with his militant besmirching of the draft, and certainly not his lack of gratitude for those that are moser nefesh for the nation. But your determination to demonize him is woefully off.
Charedim think they are antithetical, otherwise they would join the army (obviously the best form of hishtadlus when it comes to war).
(Either that or charedim just prefer to be selfish freeloaders, but I am dan lekaf zechut)
joining the army is not the only form of hishtadlus! Though there are individuals within the Hareidi apologetic camp who throw out lines about bitachon being their reason to remain in learning, it is by far not the hareidi rational for avoiding the army. If צה"ל was run by leaders in the Torah world, you'd see tons of hareidim involved. Once again, I'm not justifying anyone's position, just trying to lend some sanity to these impassioned attempts to demonize the other. And yes, I do believe the majority of hareidim are not cowards, freeloaders, or scholarly nerds, but actually very deeply devoted Jews trying to keep the Torah the best way they know.
“If צה"ל was run by leaders in the Torah world”
Can you please clarify who these Torah leaders are?
Clearly those who have both the expertise and the time to run a military.
It's weird, these chachamim never demand that, say, the sanitation department be run by Torah leaders.
Aren’t there municipalities that are run by Haredim in Israel? Like Bnei Brak? So the sanitation department is run by Haredim by default.
And those communities are the most run down and most neglected of public services in the country. See what solely learning Torah gets you?
You are wrong. They are cowards not to serve. They free load off the government instead of getting an education and supporting themselves and they could not survive as they are in general society.
I know its easier for you לדון לכף חוב. But oy v'voy if you're wrong...
Since when is begging harder and throwing tantrums השתדלות suitable for a fully grown adult? This is toddler behavior.
You are correct. The “gedolim” are a Hillel Hashem and have significantly strayed from the path of truly learned Lithuanian yeshiva heads.
Re point 3, I think their opposition/indifference stems from 2 main points:
1. A belief based on נפש החיים that only Torah learning (by haredim) keeps the world going, and everything else is meaningless or less effective
2. The yeshivish concept that the highest form of creation is a בן תורה, which is above כלל ישראל, which is above אדם, מדבר then above , צומח then חי. One of the great Musar personalities invented this hierarchy
If so, there is no need to care about anyone "inferior" to the Master Race.
a) What they are unaware of is that there is downtime in the army and in that time many d'l soldiers learn (all the pocket sefarim) so one can have their cake and eat it too.
Yes, for example my friend's son learned daf yomi every day while deployed in Gaza until he was killed.
The reservists were called up again because the leadership in this country is a mixture of incompetent, corrupt, and extremist. The war should have been ended many, many months ago.
Because today’s “Gedolim” are against any charedim serving, whether they learn Torah or not"
B'H it is starting to sink in - THEY SIMPLY ARE NOT GOING -are we finally beginning to understand them. Question: why do we bother to try and convince them? It is basically a waste of time!
Now we have to try to figure out why they took this stance.
A - We are better then the local "Shmoes" of the rest of the population, we are the ULTRA religious
people, we are special and do not have to have the burden of the army.
B - We are scared to risk our lives (everyone is scared) and if we can get out of having to suffer
when some of us will lose their lives,.
C - It is total ARRIGENCE and they will use any shenanigan's to avoid the draft - That is why I am
up to 23 different excuses they use why they do not have to serve. Every country they came into, they try to hoodwink society for their benefits. Basically, How can I get money off everyone else, not work, and also not take on the duty of that country. In other countries they looked at it - -we are taking advantage of the 'Ural" (the goy). Here the arrogance goes up , it is "your own people" and they still do i
So is it SPECIAL - SCARED - or simple ARRIGENCE ??
SAD - What is really sad, they take Hashem's holy Torah, Hashem himself "anu nafshi kesovos y'hovis" and ABUSE it to to their benefit.
I totally agree.
Just to comment on one point: While you are correct that generally we cannot rely on bitachon alone, there are exceptional people in history who have done so (the Alter of Novarhadok, for one). But in general, I always tell people, "Before you blame Hashem, first make sure you have made your best effort."
Or Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai. But the gemara tells us not to try that path
And רשב"י himself said " די לעולם אני ואתה " , which some interpret as meaning that their lifestyle was meant for very few.
Today יחידי סגולה has become a mass movement.