As you hint, the impact of this war on the lives of former soldiers and their family will not be over once the war is over. Haredi leadership no doubt think they can maintain their status quo by extemporizing and dragging their feet, as usual. But the issue of grossly unequal contribution is only going to get bigger after the war ends. Why this time? Because veterans and their families, as a rule, demand societal changes in the peace that follows. This time, the size of the haredi population enjoying not just deferments, but a lifestyle upon which this war has had little impact, is far larger than ever before, and those who have sacrificed will not forget how we pleaded for help and support from our brothers, and how they chose to party on instead.
Plenty of 40-50 year olds who are directly supporting soldiers and their families. Massive laundry, lots of extra babysitting and cooking. And then there are close relatives, friends, workmates. The IDF is part of the warp and woof of our society, and people close to us have been killed and injured.
I must say, your lack of imagination damages your ability to feel empathy.
"Prosecuting Jewish fighters for not being gentle enough with their enemies"
Some clarity please. Gaza does not look like it's been dealt with gently. And the IDF continues to act despite the so-called cease-fire. Nor has Israel listened to every dictate of Biden and the " International Discommunity".
What is implicit here, is that you want the IDF to fight more harshly and you're confident that doing so is the formula for victory. By converse, any compromise in deference of international norms is a formula for defeat. That gung-ho כוחי ועוצם ידי invocation has got to be the most ironic defense of the Charedi exemption.
"Misleading religious Zionist suckers that they were fighting to resettle land they'd previously been evicted from,"
This is not true. There is indeed a movement to take the opportunity to resettle Gaza, but it's not endorsed by the powers that be. So, I'm not sure who is doing this "misleading" that you refer to. (Plus, despite your fears and skepticism, it may yet happen. Until such time as there's a clear sustainable plan for rebuilding Gaza with its current population, the strip is very much open for the taking.)
" then freeing thousands of Hamas fighters that you paid so bitterly to capture,"
Which was endorsed by much of the Charedi leadership. Others were silent. R' Yitzchak Yosef paskened (was there a psak?) to do the deal. And we heard no protest from the UTJ representatives of the Charedi leadership. So spare me, your double-talk.
" If only they would just die"
Hyperbola? Or a lie?
Your argument can be summed up as follows:
1) If the war is a cake walk, then there's no need to draft non-learning Charedim
2) If it isn't, then it's back-stabbing negligence on account of the government. Such perfidy must be met with protest, non-compliance and disobedience. It doesn't matter if the nation is ruined, because your principle of struggling against the perfidy is more important. And you talk about false gods.
....and which PM and 'people's choice' party has facilitated this for the past 20 years? Is it the same one that subsidizes and keeps the "Jew who looks different and thinks differently" afloat? The same 'different' Jews that threatens the government everytime it does not hand out the shekels? The same 'different' Jews that views other Jews as shkotzim and chayos?
Ultimately though, your point is irrelevant. The Yeshivah community deserves nothing it gets at the expense of ordinary IL citizens who serve and work towards the shared good.
I actually agree with the OP in general (!) but you do make a lot of excellent points (besides that you write really well). But this doesn't negate the OP's complaints against Charedim as a part of the nation.
Yes, being a stateless minority has certain advantages. An absolute individual can adhere absolutely to his own codes, to the extent that he is willing to bear the consequences to himself. That's basically what Ghandi said the Jews should have done in the Holocaust. Absolute powerlessness and lack of external obligations gives the opportunity to maintain purity of intent and actions.
"And it’s not about Torah; they don’t even care about the dati yeshiva students who have to leave yeshiva."
Wrong conclusion. The correct conclusion is they don't value their Torah in the first place. It is mostly about Torah, and the rest is about a "feh" attitude towards the entire enterprise of the state, which is not their problem. As long as they're living in this bubble, this will continue. Someone needs to figure out how to pop the bubble and let the real world in.
It's extraordinary that you manage to completely miss and distort the entire message of the post. I couldn't care less whether charedim continue being charedim or stop being charedim. I simply want there to be more soldiers and no drain on the economy.
It's clear that you simply don't care about the problems described in the post. You don't care about the plight of your fellow Jews, about the sacrifices that they make for you. You prove that what I write about the charedi community is true.
Actually you have no idea what I care about or what I think. You dont know me and your speculation is simply ignorant. Thats exactly the problem. People who disagree with you you assign horrible motives because it just cant be that anyone would have a deah different than yours. Yours is correct and Torah Misinai. That sums uo about 95% of all your posts about Chareidim
Your opinion is that being able to maintain a charedi lifestyle is more important than other people's lives and health and parnasa. Everyone else should sacrifice their lives and health and parnasa and even pay you so that you don't have to risk your charedi lifestyle.
RIght, that's what I said. Your opinion is that being certain of maintaining a life according to the charedi version of halacha as opposed to the dati version of halacha (which pretty much all charedim accept as being basically acceptable, they don't view it as being like Christianity), is more important than other people's lives and health and parnasa. Everyone else should sacrifice their lives and health and parnasa and even pay you so that you don't have to risk your charedi lifestyle.
"Life according to halochoh' Certain carefully selected halochos. Go walk into a local minyan factory especially bein hazmanim at 11am and tell me about hilchos zemanim. Go look at all the flimsy pieces of paper that allow nursing homes to feed residents chometz. When it comes to money chareidim use every kulloh in the book.
So if you dont care about Chareidim staying Chareidim than you certainly would have no issue with special units in the Army that cater to the needs of Chareidim such as no women Chareidi officers Kosher food no chillul Shabbos except for real pickuach nefesh and no random silly tekeses that have kol isha? Also you would have no issue with airtight court proof garuntees that that wouldn't change?
Your idea what Kosher lemehadrin standards and what standards Chareidim need in general is very different from what Chareidim actually need. All previous attempts at "Chareidi" units were half hearted at best
"Your idea what Kosher lemehadrin standards and what standards Chareidim need in general is very different from what Chareidim actually need. "
So you claim there's a difference between מהדרין and super-duper-V.I.P.-exclusive-diamond-level מהדרין and that the army (and probably, your grandmother) doesn't provide the latter.
First, show us the evidence.
Then, show us how eating regular (!) מהדרין makes a Charedi an ex-Charedi. Because that was your claim- that the army is out to shmad everybody by forcing them to eat the בד"ץ that was okay for their grandmother.
There is what they “need” and what they “want” they purposely raise the bar so high it’s logistically impossible to accommodate their needs, but when it comes to doing things on their own look at all the heteirim and short cuts they use.
How exactly am I living off the blood amd treasure of other Jews? If by blood you mean that of ghe soliders who have been killed than yes as do you and everyone else in thia country. As far as treasure well thanks but I work for a living fair amd square
No one is denying that you are a jew. I think that the issue people have is that you are not honest.
You seem unable to call a spade a spade. You may work, but that does not mean that most chareidim do.
You may not be a drain, but the chareidi community in general is.
Their poskim are routinely mechalel shem shomayim berabim and have lost all derech eretz.
Yahadut according to Hillel is very simple.
Don't impose yourself on others (paraphrasing)
The entire being of the chareidi community is an imposition on other jews.
R Chaim (Kanievsky) may have been a gadol but never left his bubble.
Your arguments betray your true beliefs.
Instead of answering and saying how pure the chareidi community is, and saying that they have no obligation to the state (which you don't do, and deep down I think you know what the truth is) you continuously lie about the evils of the army and attack the state.
You would rather follow a gadol that you know is wrong than admit that most of your gedolim dont care about the klal and just about their own kehilla.
So be it.
You are still a jew in my book, albeit one one in the wrong.
So what your saying is you want Chareidim to be whatever you decide a שומר תורה ומצוות is. Yeah no thanks I'll follow the Gedolim and the mesores as passed down for generations
You can daven to Hashem to send us someone to wake everybody up. Not just Chareidim. Us, too, in the things we need awakening about. We all need a ישועה. It's been 2000 years or even 3500 years too long.
You can also strengthen institutions which properly represent Jewish values. I've personally reduced my donations to Chareidi causes to a trickle. Where I live here in Jerusalem, I had a tough time handing out מתנות לאביונים to worthy cases. And now קמחא דפיסחא is up at bat.
Certainly with us and several of our children. And I mentioned Zehut here in another comment.
But most people we know just can't seem to disconnect from the sectoral parties they've been voting for over the last 30+ years. And that why we can't have nice things.
You're missing the bigger picture. Yes, professional army. But if not enough enlist, there would be a mandatory call up to take up the slack. Same with sufficient reserves. They're not interested in being סומך על הנס.
The main goal is a lean and mean military, which also doesn't order the most expensive weapons at the expense of overall tactical needs. In addition, there is a goal to return to developing in-house more of our own weapons systems.
This is a major topic on its own and I for one don't have the time to get into more detail.
And while a sufficiently manned professional army might eliminate the Chareidi draft issue, that is not the goal.
I think you're sticking your own concept into what you think into their platform. But it would be more helpful if you could actually cite from their platform the actual words that support your interpretation.
"In addition, there is a goal to return to developing in-house more of our own weapons systems."
This is indeed part of their platform. You got that aspect correct.
I don’t understand why the government supports people and families who don’t work and won’t support the needs of the country. Proverbs says ”if you don’t work you don’t eat”
Why don’t the Charedim who study scripture, obey scripture? I just don’t get it
To all those who say the government is out to stop Chareidim being Chareidim... that may also be true, but it's irrelevant. The Chareidim as a group are large enough, and have the clout, that if together they said we will serve under the condition that our Gedolim control the aspects we want - they would get it! Maybe not combat, and probably not amicably, but I'm sure they'd get an Air Force base where they do all the maintenance and loadouts in a fully separate Chareidi environment - they'd only have to interact with Chiloni pilots. Or get to run kitchens. Idk. But the Chariedim don't want this, and never even try to offer it. The _real_ issue is that Chareidim feel they can't be Chareidim if they aren't busy learning, no matter how much they control their environment. Which is silly, on so many levels, not the least is how they can be busy with Hafganas instead of learning and still be Chareidim.
Chareidim are not "busy with Hafganas." The vast majority of chareidim do not go to any hafganot. For the majority of those who do go, you are probably talking about 5-10 hours per year.
Absolutely! Cleaning house for Pesach is unquestionably Bitul Torah!
No self-respecting chareidi should ever clean his house. That task should be directed to wives and teen children so his energies may be fully devoted to run-wild with Hashem’s ordinances and doctrines to better promote His self-serving demands to recapitulate the process for generations to come. And the need for uber-chareidim to go shopping for the Esrog that purportedly makes Hashem happy is indeed more Bitul Torah. Educate your spouse in the minutia of the many Halachot of selecting the most blemish-free citron. She’s supporting her kollel kvetcher anyway, so what’s a little more effort on her part in cementing a spot in Olam Haba for her hubby while chiloni and Hesder Yidden sacrifice their lives in defense of the nation.
Gangsters are not "busy with murdering." The vast majority of gangsters do not go around murdering people. For the majority of those who do go, you are probably talking about 5-10 hours per year.
This entire problem is one of the reasons I'll (probably) never make aliyah. I'm a square peg in Israeli society. I have my place in the USA and am too old to shtupp myself into the muddled Israeli system.
Out interpreted as a backhanded dismissal / I'm here you're not thus therefore your dismissed.
Finding one's place at the age one is at where one is at and finding peace there is a triumph and I'm at that place. moving to Israel which epitomizes a modern Chelmian dystopia in too many ways would break my brain😳🙄🤦🤔🧐🤫🤏🧠🕳️
Unfortunately, I don't really see a way of things changing על פי דרך הטבע.
According to surveys that I have seen, if elections were held now, Likud would still be the largest party. The right-wing parties can still form a coalition of around 62 seats. What alternatives does a religious Zionist (or just any Orthodox Jew whose children serve in the army) have at the ballot box?
They might join a coalition but would not vote along coalition lines on any issue which is contrary to the Zehut's foundational platform. They will not be hypocrites for political expediency.
Another thing that comes to mind: There were massive demonstrations against the Gaza Disengagement over many months, which intensified as the date of the Disengagement approached. There was a sense of urgency there, since once the Disengagement would be performed, there would be no way to undo it.
Here, with enlisting the Charedim, even if there is some way of compelling more Charedim to comply, most of them will probably just wait it out until the government falls, or there are new elections, and they get a second chance to roll back any concessions they have made.
Until the majority of voters wise up and unite to NOT vote for any party that will continue to kowtow to the Chareidim - or to anyone else who shirks their national duty, there will be no change.
We might already be at the point of no return, as basically the religious parties might hold on to power as their base grows much greater then the regular population.
This why many looking at the situation, see a Cilvil war or a Coup sometime in the future. It might not have to come to it, if things change, but even that window is also not open wide. at all
Do not worry Israel will Survive. There are just too many that will not let it fall into hands of un-rational people, where we fight with Gemorahs against those who come with guns. We tried that in Euroup and lost big, there are too many that wont let it happen again.
I personally are not worried, as I see those that their parent fought for the country will have to fight another day. Many laugh at it, but if you look at just the last 3-4 years compared to today, dont you see the split that happened between the religious and not religious? The split is there already and one side will eventually win. In the last few months words that were never uttered are being said openly. "Do we go to civil war over this"
Not fight per se, but passively sitting by with a quietist strategy. So a certain rebbe (I don't recall it being Satmar) told his followers that Hungary would be spared because Zionism didn't find a home there.
I would speculate that he's pointing to those who do not serve in the IDF today as representatives of that view as opposed to the heroes who fought the reich, now Eurabia. They refuse to learn and almost lost at the gates of Vienna and lose again they will and do in great part to their Jew derangement syndrome hysterically lamenting what the Jews never actually did to them as Islam encroaches and does to them🤷🙄🤦
Nothing will change until the Religious Zionist parties demand it. The power is in their hands and, with all due respect, the solution is NOT to spread the word or speak out in the US. The solution is for the Religious Zionist community to hold its own leaders accountable. They need to decide how high a priority national military service actually is.
The Religious Zionist parties are generally on the wrong side of the threshold for getting into the Knesset at all, and unlike the haredim, we are unwilling to play hard ball at the expense of the klal. This depends on the religious/traditional public, and it won't pass unless it comes from the Right.
Well, why not rethink the strategy? Why not side with the Opposition on this issue, or at least use the threat of siding with the Opposition to force Likud to act?
Even if haredim joined the IDF or otherwise performed “national service” in large numbers (which no one actually wants, for haredim do not accept the IDF and the state as the ultimate authority, and will never just follow orders) the Dati Leumi would hate them just the same.
Even if the haredim joined combat units, that alone would not be enough.
It would only be enough if haredim were killed and maimed, in large numbers. That is what the Dati Leumi community really wants, the only thing that will appease their fury.
They are dying, and they want haredim to die as well.
They are being senselessly maimed, and they want haredim to be senselessly maimed as well.
They will never admit it, but that is the truth.
And they hate the haredim more than the people who are doing this to them, because that's what the people who are doing this to them conditioned them to do.
It is kefira to believe that more soldiers equals more victory.
It is kefira to believe that Torah learning, prayer, and general mitzva observance has less impact than physical hishtadlus, let alone no impact at all.
It is kefira to scorn the spiritual contributions of haredim if they do not join the IDF, irrespective of whatever spiritual contributions the Dati Leumi contribute as well.
It is kefira to demand that haredim join an army that in no way resembles a true Jewish army, and to take orders from kofrim and traitors.
It is kefira to believe that by refusing to join such an army, haredim pose an existential threat to the Jewish people or are responsible for anyone's death.
The Dati Leumi world has become rife with kefira – but even that is not its worst failing.
Its worst failing is that it has become conditioned to hate haredim, and only haredim. It is unacceptable in the Dati Leumi world to display such seething hatred for other “selfish” Jews, for leftists, for Arab terrorists, even for Amalek.
Even if the Dati Leumi had valid criticisms of the haredi world – and they do – this is totally unacceptable.
When you literally start using the language of Nazis and classic anti-semites to describe fellow Jews, maybe it's time to take a long look in the mirror and rethink your life.
And when your best people are being maimed and killed in large numbers, and you remain committed to sending them into death traps, you need Hashem to protect you far more than you deserve. This is the worst possible time to be unleashing such hatred on haredim – not the best – regardless of your differences, complaints, and desire for them to join you on the next pointless suicide mission.
The Dati Leumi community needs to stop releasing its pent-up frustrations on the haredi world and rethink a lot of things.
And if there is going to be anything left of your community, you better start soon.
The Charedi communities are the greatest existential threat to Israel. And Bibi is willing to sacrifice the Nation to cling to power. Truly this is the most insane timeline
As you hint, the impact of this war on the lives of former soldiers and their family will not be over once the war is over. Haredi leadership no doubt think they can maintain their status quo by extemporizing and dragging their feet, as usual. But the issue of grossly unequal contribution is only going to get bigger after the war ends. Why this time? Because veterans and their families, as a rule, demand societal changes in the peace that follows. This time, the size of the haredi population enjoying not just deferments, but a lifestyle upon which this war has had little impact, is far larger than ever before, and those who have sacrificed will not forget how we pleaded for help and support from our brothers, and how they chose to party on instead.
It seems that soldiers should unite and form a party that votes for specific legislation, why haven't they done this by now?
Because there is a war still going on, and most soldiers and their families are too busy just surviving to get involved in politics right now.
I am pretty sure the 40 and 50 y.o. can start something and speak on behalf them.
You are sure. Which shows you know nothing of how disruptive this war has been to soldiers and their families.
Non-sequitur. 40 and 50 y.o. didn't go to war
Plenty of 40-50 year olds who are directly supporting soldiers and their families. Massive laundry, lots of extra babysitting and cooking. And then there are close relatives, friends, workmates. The IDF is part of the warp and woof of our society, and people close to us have been killed and injured.
I must say, your lack of imagination damages your ability to feel empathy.
"Prosecuting Jewish fighters for not being gentle enough with their enemies"
Some clarity please. Gaza does not look like it's been dealt with gently. And the IDF continues to act despite the so-called cease-fire. Nor has Israel listened to every dictate of Biden and the " International Discommunity".
What is implicit here, is that you want the IDF to fight more harshly and you're confident that doing so is the formula for victory. By converse, any compromise in deference of international norms is a formula for defeat. That gung-ho כוחי ועוצם ידי invocation has got to be the most ironic defense of the Charedi exemption.
"Misleading religious Zionist suckers that they were fighting to resettle land they'd previously been evicted from,"
This is not true. There is indeed a movement to take the opportunity to resettle Gaza, but it's not endorsed by the powers that be. So, I'm not sure who is doing this "misleading" that you refer to. (Plus, despite your fears and skepticism, it may yet happen. Until such time as there's a clear sustainable plan for rebuilding Gaza with its current population, the strip is very much open for the taking.)
" then freeing thousands of Hamas fighters that you paid so bitterly to capture,"
Which was endorsed by much of the Charedi leadership. Others were silent. R' Yitzchak Yosef paskened (was there a psak?) to do the deal. And we heard no protest from the UTJ representatives of the Charedi leadership. So spare me, your double-talk.
" If only they would just die"
Hyperbola? Or a lie?
Your argument can be summed up as follows:
1) If the war is a cake walk, then there's no need to draft non-learning Charedim
2) If it isn't, then it's back-stabbing negligence on account of the government. Such perfidy must be met with protest, non-compliance and disobedience. It doesn't matter if the nation is ruined, because your principle of struggling against the perfidy is more important. And you talk about false gods.
....and which PM and 'people's choice' party has facilitated this for the past 20 years? Is it the same one that subsidizes and keeps the "Jew who looks different and thinks differently" afloat? The same 'different' Jews that threatens the government everytime it does not hand out the shekels? The same 'different' Jews that views other Jews as shkotzim and chayos?
Ultimately though, your point is irrelevant. The Yeshivah community deserves nothing it gets at the expense of ordinary IL citizens who serve and work towards the shared good.
I actually agree with the OP in general (!) but you do make a lot of excellent points (besides that you write really well). But this doesn't negate the OP's complaints against Charedim as a part of the nation.
Haven't we heard your bloviations before under a different name?
Is he wrong?
That disapproval is a valid excuse? No.
Deflection 👀
Two topics
Yes, being a stateless minority has certain advantages. An absolute individual can adhere absolutely to his own codes, to the extent that he is willing to bear the consequences to himself. That's basically what Ghandi said the Jews should have done in the Holocaust. Absolute powerlessness and lack of external obligations gives the opportunity to maintain purity of intent and actions.
"And it’s not about Torah; they don’t even care about the dati yeshiva students who have to leave yeshiva."
Wrong conclusion. The correct conclusion is they don't value their Torah in the first place. It is mostly about Torah, and the rest is about a "feh" attitude towards the entire enterprise of the state, which is not their problem. As long as they're living in this bubble, this will continue. Someone needs to figure out how to pop the bubble and let the real world in.
See the problem is nobody buys that you actually care if Chareidim serve or not. You want Chareidim to stop being Chareidim simple as that!
It's extraordinary that you manage to completely miss and distort the entire message of the post. I couldn't care less whether charedim continue being charedim or stop being charedim. I simply want there to be more soldiers and no drain on the economy.
It's clear that you simply don't care about the problems described in the post. You don't care about the plight of your fellow Jews, about the sacrifices that they make for you. You prove that what I write about the charedi community is true.
Actually you have no idea what I care about or what I think. You dont know me and your speculation is simply ignorant. Thats exactly the problem. People who disagree with you you assign horrible motives because it just cant be that anyone would have a deah different than yours. Yours is correct and Torah Misinai. That sums uo about 95% of all your posts about Chareidim
Your opinion is that being able to maintain a charedi lifestyle is more important than other people's lives and health and parnasa. Everyone else should sacrifice their lives and health and parnasa and even pay you so that you don't have to risk your charedi lifestyle.
No my opinion is that maintaining a life acc. to halacha as we see it is paramount to us. If that doesn't work for you than you just proved my point
RIght, that's what I said. Your opinion is that being certain of maintaining a life according to the charedi version of halacha as opposed to the dati version of halacha (which pretty much all charedim accept as being basically acceptable, they don't view it as being like Christianity), is more important than other people's lives and health and parnasa. Everyone else should sacrifice their lives and health and parnasa and even pay you so that you don't have to risk your charedi lifestyle.
"Life according to halochoh' Certain carefully selected halochos. Go walk into a local minyan factory especially bein hazmanim at 11am and tell me about hilchos zemanim. Go look at all the flimsy pieces of paper that allow nursing homes to feed residents chometz. When it comes to money chareidim use every kulloh in the book.
"As we see it."
Tell me, do not charedim live a life according to halakha or not?
Absolutely. However there ia a clear difference as to how Chareidim pasken halacha and how others do
So if you dont care about Chareidim staying Chareidim than you certainly would have no issue with special units in the Army that cater to the needs of Chareidim such as no women Chareidi officers Kosher food no chillul Shabbos except for real pickuach nefesh and no random silly tekeses that have kol isha? Also you would have no issue with airtight court proof garuntees that that wouldn't change?
Your idea what Kosher lemehadrin standards and what standards Chareidim need in general is very different from what Chareidim actually need. All previous attempts at "Chareidi" units were half hearted at best
"Your idea what Kosher lemehadrin standards and what standards Chareidim need in general is very different from what Chareidim actually need. "
So you claim there's a difference between מהדרין and super-duper-V.I.P.-exclusive-diamond-level מהדרין and that the army (and probably, your grandmother) doesn't provide the latter.
First, show us the evidence.
Then, show us how eating regular (!) מהדרין makes a Charedi an ex-Charedi. Because that was your claim- that the army is out to shmad everybody by forcing them to eat the בד"ץ that was okay for their grandmother.
There is what they “need” and what they “want” they purposely raise the bar so high it’s logistically impossible to accommodate their needs, but when it comes to doing things on their own look at all the heteirim and short cuts they use.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2382839/father-whose-son-enlisted-fumes-idf-wants-chareidim-they-want-to-destroy-them.html
And what's wrong with that? We want all Jews to be religious, even charedim. If that means they have to stop being charedim, so be it.
Wow you sound like a Jews for Jesus missionary
That...doesn't even make sense.
Glad to see you are perfectly happy living off the “blood and treasure” of other Jews.
If that is not the exact definition of a parasite I don’t know what is.
How exactly am I living off the blood amd treasure of other Jews? If by blood you mean that of ghe soliders who have been killed than yes as do you and everyone else in thia country. As far as treasure well thanks but I work for a living fair amd square
You’re wrong cuz.
Well at the very least you admit were family thats ay least betyer than three quarters of the commenters here
No one is denying that you are a jew. I think that the issue people have is that you are not honest.
You seem unable to call a spade a spade. You may work, but that does not mean that most chareidim do.
You may not be a drain, but the chareidi community in general is.
Their poskim are routinely mechalel shem shomayim berabim and have lost all derech eretz.
Yahadut according to Hillel is very simple.
Don't impose yourself on others (paraphrasing)
The entire being of the chareidi community is an imposition on other jews.
R Chaim (Kanievsky) may have been a gadol but never left his bubble.
Your arguments betray your true beliefs.
Instead of answering and saying how pure the chareidi community is, and saying that they have no obligation to the state (which you don't do, and deep down I think you know what the truth is) you continuously lie about the evils of the army and attack the state.
You would rather follow a gadol that you know is wrong than admit that most of your gedolim dont care about the klal and just about their own kehilla.
So be it.
You are still a jew in my book, albeit one one in the wrong.
Ahhh wonderful thanks for telling me what I think!!! Good to know someone knows better whats in my head than me... A big relief!
So address my argument.
As Homer Simpson said
D'oh!
Dumbest take ever
🤦🙄🤷🧠🤏🤫😳
I'm a "nobody" who cares!
We want Chareidim to properly be שומרי תורה ומצוות, at a most elementary level. The inverse? Look in the mirror.
So what your saying is you want Chareidim to be whatever you decide a שומר תורה ומצוות is. Yeah no thanks I'll follow the Gedolim and the mesores as passed down for generations
No. What I'm saying is that I want Chareidim to be what Hashem has shown us throughout תנ"ך to be a שומר תורה ומצוות.
”אמר לו (הלל): דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד זו היא כל התורה כולה ואידך פירושה הוא זיל גמור“
Sorry I have a Shulchan Aruch and all the sifrei halacha and hashkafa and the Gedolim. I dont need your imput as far as what you think I should do
You should buy a יד החזקה. You might learn something.
Also a תנ"ך.
Sorry we dont pasken straight out of the יד החזקה we have a book called the shulchan aruch then we have the nosei keilim and all the later poskim
What can we in חו''ל do about this? Other than carry your pain in our heart.
Can we daven or learn לזכות the charedi position to fail?
You can spread the word.
You can daven to Hashem to send us someone to wake everybody up. Not just Chareidim. Us, too, in the things we need awakening about. We all need a ישועה. It's been 2000 years or even 3500 years too long.
You can also strengthen institutions which properly represent Jewish values. I've personally reduced my donations to Chareidi causes to a trickle. Where I live here in Jerusalem, I had a tough time handing out מתנות לאביונים to worthy cases. And now קמחא דפיסחא is up at bat.
Does Moshe Feiglin resonate with you or others in your circles?
He seems the most rational choice yet is ignored or dismissed for ludicrous reasons such as wanting to legalize a plant🙄
Certainly with us and several of our children. And I mentioned Zehut here in another comment.
But most people we know just can't seem to disconnect from the sectoral parties they've been voting for over the last 30+ years. And that why we can't have nice things.
Much credit to Zehut for actually going beyond empty slogans (beyond the party name) and actually publishing a coherent platform.
But are they too are stuck in the conceptzia?
From their platform:
כיום צה"ל זקוק לכוח אדם מצומצם יותר ואיכותי יותר שעבר הכשרה ממושכת. במצב הקיים, רבים מן המגויסים לצה"ל אינם באמת נצרכים.
You're missing the bigger picture. Yes, professional army. But if not enough enlist, there would be a mandatory call up to take up the slack. Same with sufficient reserves. They're not interested in being סומך על הנס.
The main goal is a lean and mean military, which also doesn't order the most expensive weapons at the expense of overall tactical needs. In addition, there is a goal to return to developing in-house more of our own weapons systems.
This is a major topic on its own and I for one don't have the time to get into more detail.
And while a sufficiently manned professional army might eliminate the Chareidi draft issue, that is not the goal.
I think you're sticking your own concept into what you think into their platform. But it would be more helpful if you could actually cite from their platform the actual words that support your interpretation.
"In addition, there is a goal to return to developing in-house more of our own weapons systems."
This is indeed part of their platform. You got that aspect correct.
1. Contact your Israel Consulate and ask them.
2. Prepare yourself and others for defense in case we have to fight here.
Don't donate to their Yeshivas, tell the OU how you feel.
All of our Rabonim here are quiet and go along. they shouldn't.
Join the IDF.
I don’t understand why the government supports people and families who don’t work and won’t support the needs of the country. Proverbs says ”if you don’t work you don’t eat”
Why don’t the Charedim who study scripture, obey scripture? I just don’t get it
One might well ask.
To all those who say the government is out to stop Chareidim being Chareidim... that may also be true, but it's irrelevant. The Chareidim as a group are large enough, and have the clout, that if together they said we will serve under the condition that our Gedolim control the aspects we want - they would get it! Maybe not combat, and probably not amicably, but I'm sure they'd get an Air Force base where they do all the maintenance and loadouts in a fully separate Chareidi environment - they'd only have to interact with Chiloni pilots. Or get to run kitchens. Idk. But the Chariedim don't want this, and never even try to offer it. The _real_ issue is that Chareidim feel they can't be Chareidim if they aren't busy learning, no matter how much they control their environment. Which is silly, on so many levels, not the least is how they can be busy with Hafganas instead of learning and still be Chareidim.
Chareidim are not "busy with Hafganas." The vast majority of chareidim do not go to any hafganot. For the majority of those who do go, you are probably talking about 5-10 hours per year.
Even once a year is בוטול תורה.
Is cleaning one's house for Pesach bitul Torah? Is shopping for a lulav and esrog bitul Torah?
If one views hafganot as important to preserving one's religious observance, they are most definitely not bitul Torah.
The Hareidi claim is that Torah learning is as important, intense, and efficacious as serving in the army in times of war.
No combat soldier is given a leave to clean for Pesach, or to shop for a lulav and etrog.
That is an unsophisticated understanding of that chareidi claim, if there even is such a claim.
@ Yehoshua,
Absolutely! Cleaning house for Pesach is unquestionably Bitul Torah!
No self-respecting chareidi should ever clean his house. That task should be directed to wives and teen children so his energies may be fully devoted to run-wild with Hashem’s ordinances and doctrines to better promote His self-serving demands to recapitulate the process for generations to come. And the need for uber-chareidim to go shopping for the Esrog that purportedly makes Hashem happy is indeed more Bitul Torah. Educate your spouse in the minutia of the many Halachot of selecting the most blemish-free citron. She’s supporting her kollel kvetcher anyway, so what’s a little more effort on her part in cementing a spot in Olam Haba for her hubby while chiloni and Hesder Yidden sacrifice their lives in defense of the nation.
Gangsters are not "busy with murdering." The vast majority of gangsters do not go around murdering people. For the majority of those who do go, you are probably talking about 5-10 hours per year.
This entire problem is one of the reasons I'll (probably) never make aliyah. I'm a square peg in Israeli society. I have my place in the USA and am too old to shtupp myself into the muddled Israeli system.
I'm sure that's the reason.
And your implication being?
Out interpreted as a backhanded dismissal / I'm here you're not thus therefore your dismissed.
Finding one's place at the age one is at where one is at and finding peace there is a triumph and I'm at that place. moving to Israel which epitomizes a modern Chelmian dystopia in too many ways would break my brain😳🙄🤦🤔🧐🤫🤏🧠🕳️
🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱
Oh, it's not a Chelmian dystopia today. Not anymore. Neither is America what it once was.
Out should read I'll
Enjoy your authoritarian regime/state
Unfortunately, I don't really see a way of things changing על פי דרך הטבע.
According to surveys that I have seen, if elections were held now, Likud would still be the largest party. The right-wing parties can still form a coalition of around 62 seats. What alternatives does a religious Zionist (or just any Orthodox Jew whose children serve in the army) have at the ballot box?
Zehut. Yeh. Hit me.
Which won't cross the threshold.
So change won't cross the threshold. Enjoy the same ol' same ol'. You will get what you ask for.
Moshe Feiglin does seem to be getting some media exposure, but will it get him anywhere?
Or will at least will some his better ideas be adopted by other right wing parties?
It will if people vote for him.
Zehut would not join the current coalition?
They might join a coalition but would not vote along coalition lines on any issue which is contrary to the Zehut's foundational platform. They will not be hypocrites for political expediency.
Another thing that comes to mind: There were massive demonstrations against the Gaza Disengagement over many months, which intensified as the date of the Disengagement approached. There was a sense of urgency there, since once the Disengagement would be performed, there would be no way to undo it.
Here, with enlisting the Charedim, even if there is some way of compelling more Charedim to comply, most of them will probably just wait it out until the government falls, or there are new elections, and they get a second chance to roll back any concessions they have made.
Until the majority of voters wise up and unite to NOT vote for any party that will continue to kowtow to the Chareidim - or to anyone else who shirks their national duty, there will be no change.
Moshe Feiglin 🤷
We might already be at the point of no return, as basically the religious parties might hold on to power as their base grows much greater then the regular population.
This why many looking at the situation, see a Cilvil war or a Coup sometime in the future. It might not have to come to it, if things change, but even that window is also not open wide. at all
Do not worry Israel will Survive. There are just too many that will not let it fall into hands of un-rational people, where we fight with Gemorahs against those who come with guns. We tried that in Euroup and lost big, there are too many that wont let it happen again.
I personally are not worried, as I see those that their parent fought for the country will have to fight another day. Many laugh at it, but if you look at just the last 3-4 years compared to today, dont you see the split that happened between the religious and not religious? The split is there already and one side will eventually win. In the last few months words that were never uttered are being said openly. "Do we go to civil war over this"
Where in Europe did they fight against guns with gemorahs? Do you always make stuff up or only on Mondays?
Not fight per se, but passively sitting by with a quietist strategy. So a certain rebbe (I don't recall it being Satmar) told his followers that Hungary would be spared because Zionism didn't find a home there.
I would speculate that he's pointing to those who do not serve in the IDF today as representatives of that view as opposed to the heroes who fought the reich, now Eurabia. They refuse to learn and almost lost at the gates of Vienna and lose again they will and do in great part to their Jew derangement syndrome hysterically lamenting what the Jews never actually did to them as Islam encroaches and does to them🤷🙄🤦
A simmering war of attrition will remain with old leftists dying off. A hard civil war seems unlikely, even more so if the left can be crushed
I doubt it will come to a civil war, חו"ש. In our history, only the Left has done such things.
Schnorrers will schnor! Surprise
Nothing will change until the Religious Zionist parties demand it. The power is in their hands and, with all due respect, the solution is NOT to spread the word or speak out in the US. The solution is for the Religious Zionist community to hold its own leaders accountable. They need to decide how high a priority national military service actually is.
The Religious Zionist parties are generally on the wrong side of the threshold for getting into the Knesset at all, and unlike the haredim, we are unwilling to play hard ball at the expense of the klal. This depends on the religious/traditional public, and it won't pass unless it comes from the Right.
Maybe you should, just saying.
Well, why not rethink the strategy? Why not side with the Opposition on this issue, or at least use the threat of siding with the Opposition to force Likud to act?
Even if haredim joined the IDF or otherwise performed “national service” in large numbers (which no one actually wants, for haredim do not accept the IDF and the state as the ultimate authority, and will never just follow orders) the Dati Leumi would hate them just the same.
Even if the haredim joined combat units, that alone would not be enough.
It would only be enough if haredim were killed and maimed, in large numbers. That is what the Dati Leumi community really wants, the only thing that will appease their fury.
They are dying, and they want haredim to die as well.
They are being senselessly maimed, and they want haredim to be senselessly maimed as well.
They will never admit it, but that is the truth.
And they hate the haredim more than the people who are doing this to them, because that's what the people who are doing this to them conditioned them to do.
It is kefira to believe that more soldiers equals more victory.
It is kefira to believe that Torah learning, prayer, and general mitzva observance has less impact than physical hishtadlus, let alone no impact at all.
It is kefira to scorn the spiritual contributions of haredim if they do not join the IDF, irrespective of whatever spiritual contributions the Dati Leumi contribute as well.
It is kefira to demand that haredim join an army that in no way resembles a true Jewish army, and to take orders from kofrim and traitors.
It is kefira to believe that by refusing to join such an army, haredim pose an existential threat to the Jewish people or are responsible for anyone's death.
The Dati Leumi world has become rife with kefira – but even that is not its worst failing.
Its worst failing is that it has become conditioned to hate haredim, and only haredim. It is unacceptable in the Dati Leumi world to display such seething hatred for other “selfish” Jews, for leftists, for Arab terrorists, even for Amalek.
Even if the Dati Leumi had valid criticisms of the haredi world – and they do – this is totally unacceptable.
When you literally start using the language of Nazis and classic anti-semites to describe fellow Jews, maybe it's time to take a long look in the mirror and rethink your life.
And when your best people are being maimed and killed in large numbers, and you remain committed to sending them into death traps, you need Hashem to protect you far more than you deserve. This is the worst possible time to be unleashing such hatred on haredim – not the best – regardless of your differences, complaints, and desire for them to join you on the next pointless suicide mission.
The Dati Leumi community needs to stop releasing its pent-up frustrations on the haredi world and rethink a lot of things.
And if there is going to be anything left of your community, you better start soon.
__________________________
"Hate" is a very strong word. Part of rhe problem with haredi politics is its need to express themselves through hyperbole and polarization.
look at the Haftorah for Parshat Yisro. G-d tells the prophet he will protect a king who sent his son through the fires of Molech.
The reason being that he wanted to keep the kingdom together.
Relax with the kefirah.
You want to make believe that the state is the worst but that isn't true by a long stretch.
Please learn some Navi
What is a link to media coverage of the demonstration?
The Charedi communities are the greatest existential threat to Israel. And Bibi is willing to sacrifice the Nation to cling to power. Truly this is the most insane timeline
Sure, because the left hasn't made pacts with the Charedim in the past 🙄
You can go send your kids to die in this stupid IDF propaganda excercise, but I'm not sending mine. Muted
2 things can be true at the same time. It is not a propaganda exercise, it is an existential war, and the IDF fights the wrong way.
You can also donate money to the organizations organizing the rally, particularly the ones working more on the draft issue.