It's very amusing that you think that the claim of a teenager, who himself is on track to join the IDF, is evidence that you don't need to go to the IDF.
Rabbi Slifkin, I never meant it as evidence that you don't need to go to the IDF! Just that the video is inspiring that it shows so many young men who affirm our Emunah that Torah protects! Torah protects! Torah protects! YES! Torah protects! Thanks for sharing this beautiful and uplifting message! Of course they also believe it is necessary to join the IDF, as a mitzvah and hishtadlus!
It's even more amusing that you think a video which is practically an advertisement for the chareidi approach, and which has nothing in it about the IDF, is evidence that you do need to join the IDF.
Good piece overall. But you should at least mention in passing the basic explanation for why the dati leumi community isn't discussed in yeshivish media: the yeshivish media discusses the yeshivish community.
In general, I realized years ago how narrow the topics discussed in yeshivish media are. They spend a huge amount of time discussing US national politics. For Jewish news, they'll discuss ultra Orthodox rabbis, yeshivas, or communities of the last 100 years. The topics inside of this "Overton window" are small. See also Yoel Finkelman's excellent book on the topic of yeshivish media, which I believe you've discussed in the past.
(As an aside, the same point can be made about the common yeshivish talking point that "all questions are allowed to be asked and debated". In fact, real robust debate is only allowed about topics within a very narrow Overton window; the only real robust debates allowed are in very niche theoretical talmudic discussions, using a narrow range of analytic methodologies.)
The thing about the talking point is...it's true. All questions are allowed to be asked. How do we know Hashem exists? How do we know the Torah is true? Why did the Holocaust happen? All of these are allowed to be asked in the proper forum. Obviously a Rosh Yeshiva asking these questions in the middle of shiur klali would raise serious questions about his judgement (more questions!) but I think most people can understand that.
That's certainly not the case. These questions cannot be asked in any open way in mainstream traditional ultra Orthodox institutions. If they're discussed at all, it's in secret, and the discussions are nowhere near as robust as for talmudic sugyot and halachic questions
Depends what you mean by "open". It's certainly not the case that these questions can only be asked in secret. If there's a problem asking the question, it's usually because of an inappropriate forum. Like asking how you know God exists in a chumash shiur. But if you ask your mashgiach, how can we prove God exists, that doesn't have to be in secret.
Not true at all. Just because that's not a popular subject doesn't make it unacceptable. Most yeshiva bachurim are just not interested. It's a niche topic, like techeiles. I know people who felt perfectly comfortable asking such question to rebbeim in traditional yeshivos.
Young man, I'm going to assume that you aren't just trolling us here. At this point in your life, you appear to have developed a sense of spirituality on the level of "Step on a crack, break your mother's back."
The only "rebbe" that can teach someone like you is suffering, and for good or for better, that shiur is going to come.
When was the last time you heard of a notable Rosh Yedhiva or a Gadol offering a shiur on the topics that you noted? Does Hashem exist, is the Torah true, Why did he permit the Shoah, etc., etc. I’d like to hear reasonable explanations to those questions, not — we just don’t know.
That is a good point...but if you click on the link to Mishpacha above you'll see an interview with the secretary of the Lubavitcher Rebbe (they even give the latter a chassidish "zy"a"). That's far from their zone.
I don't get the complaint. Mishpacha doesn't discuss hesder yeshivos just like HaMizrachi magazine doesn't discuss chareidi yeshivos. Just like Rationalist Judaism doesn't discuss chareidi yeshivos except to put them down. The complaint makes no sense.
Each of my sons chose a hesder Yeshiva that suited him after graduating Yeshiva high school in Canada. One of my boys went to Maalot in 2005. He wanted Maalot because he wanted a total Hebrew immersion (at that time they didn't have a chutznik program) and he didn't want the distractions of a large city.
Rav Rimon and Rav Melamed will quote pesakim of poskim who are generally considered charedi. The sefer נפשי בשאלתי by Rabbi Yoni Rosensweig quotes across the spectrum in his footnotes. Those are some examples that do, there are certainly more.
To be honest, I don't think any Chareidi Yeshiva Bochur has ever heard of any Dati Leumi Rav, except for maybe Rav Kook and Rav "JB" as he is known in the Charedi world.
That is exactly the point Shlomo and Moshe Averick are making.
The reason why chareidi bochurim have never heard of tremendous talmidei chachamim who happen to be dati l’umi is b/c the chareidi world regards them like “amharatzim”, whereas the DL world does not do the same re: chareidi rabbanim.
I would prefer if more frum boys would go to a hesder style yeshiva instead of going of the derech at a charedi yeshiva where they dont emphasize the importance of eretz yisrael, ahavas yisrael and as a result the boys end up poresh m'hatzibur by not being part of the klal and neglecting the chiyuv mitzva aseh of milchemet mitzvah.
"These yeshivot exist with the full backing of the court and the rest of the country, showing that there is no “war against Torah.”"
Uh, no they don't. The seculars complain endlessly that the hesder yeshivos do not equally share the burden. Which they don't. 1.5 does not equal 3, no matter how you slice it. If chareidim didn't exist, the war on the Torah would be fought against yeshivos like the one in the video. They should be happy that chareidim exist to distract the secular public.
I'll have to search to find it, but I saw a position paper showing why the IDF feels that Hesder is of equal value. Basically it was to do with the fact that they are combat soldiers of the highest caliber, which is what the army has a great need for.
"I saw a position paper about something" does not equal "full backing of the court and the rest of the country", which is manifestly not the case, and is definitely very far from "showing that there is no war against Torah."
You need to look at it by community not individual.
There is potential for resentment when the Hesder kids "go home" after 18 months and the non-Hesder soldiers have another year to year and a half of service.
But, if you look at combat service on a community level, the Datiim/Hesdernikim probably serve in the highest proportions.
and, horrible as this is, the way to see that this is true is to read the biographies of the fallen soldiers,
Exactly the problem. The hesderniks as a community serve significantly less time than everybody else. Which is the pretext for the haters of the Torah to continually complain about the unfairness. Not that I disagree with your explanation, which is a good explanation.
The reason the Hester Yeshiva boys serve only 18 month - is the Israeli government, that according to you is so wicked and wants to destroy Torah, is accepting learning half the time as a way to support Torah. Basically, they are saying if you are a yeshiva boy, we will reduce your obligation time for you, and fulfill the rest of the time learning Torah. A Hester boy cannot leave learning and waste his time in restaurants, and eating in pizza parlors, (like so many of you guys) he has to do his obligation with learning Torah.. Go figure!
Funny how charedim can't see things right in front of their noses.?
A hesder boy can do all those things, just like a chareidi boy can. What kind of fantasy world do you live in? And like I said, the Torah haters complain plenty about the unequal burden of hesder too, and would complain a heck of a lot more if chareidim didn't exist or hesder was 10x bigger. Which is why the hesderniks should thank the chareidim for drawing fire for them.
Nah, eating cholent and reading Hamodia is שוויון בנטל. Chareidim who do those are sacrificing far more for the country than wounded soldiers. Chilonim can't even begin to understand how great the sacrifice of eating cholent and reading Hamodia is.
Also, hesder is not a solution to the shmad problem. And that's why you don't try to push it more often- after all, wouldn't positive messaging work much better than your constant volley of childish curses and insults? Wouldn't it work much better to use your platform to inform chareidim they can literally get the best of both worlds? Total strict observance and lifelong dedication to Torah, as well as army service and employment opportunity? But it doesn't work that way. In the DL world, hesder is not a separate community and educational system, it's an individual decision of young men, one that the vast majority don't make. That's why it's not a solution to the shmad issue, and why you have to write articles like this https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/why-risk-your-kids
Shmad issue in the army? - What the ____ are you talking about? Can you name me 3 Hesder Yeshiva boys that shmad in the army? Better yet, can you name me one? OTD is a problem all over, and that happens in the adolescent years. Once you hit the army years there is no greater numbers in each group.
The shmad issue in the DL community, which is much, much worse than in the chareidi community. In other posts Slifkin has written that the much worse OTD rate is worth it for whatever values you gain from the DL approach, here he implies that actually, hesder totally solves the problem.
Yeah, going OTD is shmad. I know you guys don't take religion seriously, which explains why chareidim will never find article like these convincing....
"OTD is shmad". Of course, OTD has more to do with the type of head covering than actual mitzva observance or לימוד. The more expensive the headgear, the higher the level of piety. Plus, your lack of life experience is showing.
If you factor in years and years of miluim (assume a month a year for 20 years-- this year was of course much, much more), the difference in time served is much less than 2-fold.
But surely the folks who serve a full 3 years do miluim too…
So if you figure a lifetime total of 18 + 20 months for hesderniks, and 36 + 20 months for regular soldiers, the hesder guys wind up serving 2/3 as much time (rather than 1/2). Still not a great equivalence.
(I’m not suggesting hesder doesn’t have value if it’s own, just addressing your comment)
Actually, R. Moshe Shapira, whom you have criticized, went numerous times to Shaalvim, and a regular Chaburah of Shaalvim students came frequently to his home to hear Shiurim and talk in learning. Numerous Haredi Roshei Yeshiva visited Kerem B'Yavneh and other Hesder Yeshivos. The facts are that those who treasure learning value it wherever sincerity and Yiras Shamayim are present. Woe to those who use this issue as a wedge to demean and criticize others - קרדום לחפור בו.
Both Shalavim and Kerem b'yavneh are more politically neutral and slighly different hashkofos. Shalavim by good yekkish stock. Shalavim was founded by Poali 'agudas yisroel'. The clues in the name. Kerem b'yavneh founded by reb goldvicht who was very close to briskers etc.
Well, Mishpacha Magazine is CERTAINLY not considered part of the Israeli Haredi mainstream, yet the author of this blog scours its pages to find an example of Haredi foibles and missteps. I guess he is just looking to find flaws and highlight them for whatever personal reason.
Mishapacha represents the outer limits of the left-center.
When EVEN Mishpacha is saying something (or ignoring something), that tells you a whole lot about what those to the right of them (the Israeli haredi mainstream) is thinking.
More specifically, it tells you just how far Mishpacha feels it can go so as to not get into trouble with the haredi mainstream (including the American Rabbinnic haredi mainstream).
Maybe the Mishpacha editorial board doesn't feel threatened that Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva would put them in cherem over having violated this particular one of the ikrei emuna?
Actually, Shlomo, you haven't the slightest idea of what goes on at a magazine like Mishpacha. There is no 'editorial board'. It's just a private business, with a couple of rabbis (buddies of the editor) in consultation - for window dressing, and to insure they stay out of trouble - run mostly by American women in Yerushalayim. The goal is to make money, and to do so by offending as few people as possible while getting a few laughs, and making as many people as possible feel positive about themeselves.
I have no doubt that “Lakewood is the 'Trumpiest' town in NJ” but, let’s be honest, that’s kind of like saying that Hunter is the smartest Biden (it ain’t exactly a high bar…).
But, in any case, when Shlomo said “Mishapacha represents the outer limits of the left-center”, I assume he was talking about the “left-center” of chareidism, not of American politics.
Just on this point, it is not malice they don't write nor acknowledge the Daati Leumi community. Every group or chassidus only focuses on their own. Look at all the pamphlets or magazines that any chassidus puts out., they talks and praises their own or their Rebbe. Look at any Chabad magazine . Not sure the Litvaks deliberately don't include Daati Leumi in their publications, due to being embarrassed, or ashamed they do not do the same. (they should be!)
All I can say is, the true honest to hashem , good, caring, Jew is the Daati Leumi, I do regret I did not raise my children in that way, Today I would send then to a Daati Leumi yeshiva as opposed to the one they went to. I hope I will be able to influence my Grandchildren to go in that way. Don't we want the best for our children, and the ultimate Yid is from the Daati Leumi, Hesder Yeshiva community.
When they are so focused on "their own" that they refuse to share the burden of army service (or the burden of other societal responsibilities, such as contributing substantively to Jewish society at large) they are "bothering" K'lal Yisrael.
When I went to yeshivas, including Gateshead, One of the main topics of mussar drashot was "נושא בעול עם חבירו". This was presented as a great ideal. More than Gemillut Hassadim even, if I remember correctly. This subject was presented again and again. I dare not think why the current Hareidi community does not see this as an ideal connected with military service. I leave it to your imagination. Yet this truly seems to me an ideological contradiction. I don't know how the Rabbonim reconcile this, except to say that too many kids who go to the army end up Secular Jews. There is no overt discussion in their communities about this, regrettably. If there is any discussion on this issue, I believe it is all underground, or by families whose children have gone off the Derech. Secrecy denies the attempt at Reason and Truth. If there were open discussion on this issue, the pros and cons could be weighed. Honestly, not everyone who went to Hesder stays frum. But then, neither does everyone who went to the MIr. The Chareidi community does indeed have fringe lecturers who talk about how to deal with young adults who don't fit in. But this is not mainstream.
Neither logical nor sensible, nor congruent with some of the most basic principles of יהדות. Perhaps certain people's minds and ethics have become corrupted by their dependence on government money and the "kollel for all" paradigm. Sad.
"The eighty hesder yeshivot refute all that. These yeshivot exist with the full backing of the court and the rest of the country, showing that there is no “war against Torah.” And the number of students in these yeshivot who drop out of religion is minuscule, since they are in a constant framework with their yeshiva."
Do you have any evidence for this claim? From googling around, I couldn't find anything specific to Hesder yeshivos, but the DL community overall is certainly losing a whole lot more of its members than the charedi community. (I'm sure it's the charedim's fault somehow....)
בחינוך החרדי-חסידי 20 נוטשים את הדרך שחונכו עליה ונעשים מסורתיים/חילונים. בחינוך החרדי-ליטאי 30. בחינוך החרדי-ספרדי זה מטפס ל- 85.
ומה באשר לחינוך הדתי? ובכן, אצל המכונים חרד"ל – 210 מתוך אלף נוטשים את הדרך. אצל דתי לאומי 'מרכז': 310. ודתי לאומי 'לייט' – 510 יתגלו כעבור שנים ספורות כלא דתיים.
There's no such thing as separate "hesder" communities among the DLim. It's not some totally distinct education system. Only a small minority of young men go the hesder route, and it's their individual decision.
"מחקר דמוגרפי: הדתיים יוצאים בשאלה - הילודה הגבוהה מנצחת את החילונים"
בשני הקצוות, החרדים והחילונים - 94% ו-90% (בהתאמה) נאמנים לאורח החיים ולאמונה שעלי" חונכו. מבין "הפורשים", רק 1% מהחרדים הופכים לחילונים בבגרותם, 2% יגדירו את עצמם מסורתיים "ו-3% דתיים. אצל החילונים: 2% גדלים להיות חרדים, 1% דתיים ו-7% מסורתיים.
If the gedolim would get together and agree to have all chareidim drafted, but with the condition that it be a separate army, run only by chareidim generals, and answering to no one else except the prime minister (who is only authorized to command the army to fight or not to fight, but has no authority over issues of religion and culture in this charedi army).
Would you accept this condition and allow for the creation of such an army?
Chareidim in the US look at the Hesder YEshivos as halfway off the derech, just as Satmar looks at Lakewood as halfway off the derech. Satmar publications never discuss Lakewood, and Lakewood never discusses Hesder. It is like they don't exist.
Wow!
התורה שמרה על עם ישראל במשך הדורות!
התורה מחזיקה את עם ישראל!
התורה היא שרש עם ישראל!
זה מגן, התורה מגינה על עם ישראל!
Torah protects! Torah protects! Torah protects!
How inspiring! Thank you Rabbi Slifkin for sharing this video!
It's very amusing that you think that the claim of a teenager, who himself is on track to join the IDF, is evidence that you don't need to go to the IDF.
Rabbi Slifkin, I never meant it as evidence that you don't need to go to the IDF! Just that the video is inspiring that it shows so many young men who affirm our Emunah that Torah protects! Torah protects! Torah protects! YES! Torah protects! Thanks for sharing this beautiful and uplifting message! Of course they also believe it is necessary to join the IDF, as a mitzvah and hishtadlus!
It's even more amusing that you think a video which is practically an advertisement for the chareidi approach, and which has nothing in it about the IDF, is evidence that you do need to join the IDF.
Good piece overall. But you should at least mention in passing the basic explanation for why the dati leumi community isn't discussed in yeshivish media: the yeshivish media discusses the yeshivish community.
In general, I realized years ago how narrow the topics discussed in yeshivish media are. They spend a huge amount of time discussing US national politics. For Jewish news, they'll discuss ultra Orthodox rabbis, yeshivas, or communities of the last 100 years. The topics inside of this "Overton window" are small. See also Yoel Finkelman's excellent book on the topic of yeshivish media, which I believe you've discussed in the past.
(As an aside, the same point can be made about the common yeshivish talking point that "all questions are allowed to be asked and debated". In fact, real robust debate is only allowed about topics within a very narrow Overton window; the only real robust debates allowed are in very niche theoretical talmudic discussions, using a narrow range of analytic methodologies.)
The thing about the talking point is...it's true. All questions are allowed to be asked. How do we know Hashem exists? How do we know the Torah is true? Why did the Holocaust happen? All of these are allowed to be asked in the proper forum. Obviously a Rosh Yeshiva asking these questions in the middle of shiur klali would raise serious questions about his judgement (more questions!) but I think most people can understand that.
That's certainly not the case. These questions cannot be asked in any open way in mainstream traditional ultra Orthodox institutions. If they're discussed at all, it's in secret, and the discussions are nowhere near as robust as for talmudic sugyot and halachic questions
Depends what you mean by "open". It's certainly not the case that these questions can only be asked in secret. If there's a problem asking the question, it's usually because of an inappropriate forum. Like asking how you know God exists in a chumash shiur. But if you ask your mashgiach, how can we prove God exists, that doesn't have to be in secret.
Actually, in traditional yeshivot, asking fundamental questions, such as for proofs of God, is not acceptable
Not true at all. Just because that's not a popular subject doesn't make it unacceptable. Most yeshiva bachurim are just not interested. It's a niche topic, like techeiles. I know people who felt perfectly comfortable asking such question to rebbeim in traditional yeshivos.
Well, all the experiences that I'm aware of were the opposite
"It's a niche topic, like techeiles".
Young man, I'm going to assume that you aren't just trolling us here. At this point in your life, you appear to have developed a sense of spirituality on the level of "Step on a crack, break your mother's back."
The only "rebbe" that can teach someone like you is suffering, and for good or for better, that shiur is going to come.
@Evil Sorcerer,
When was the last time you heard of a notable Rosh Yedhiva or a Gadol offering a shiur on the topics that you noted? Does Hashem exist, is the Torah true, Why did he permit the Shoah, etc., etc. I’d like to hear reasonable explanations to those questions, not — we just don’t know.
I said that the questions are allowed to be asked, not that Roshei Yeshivos give shiurim on them. Try to stay on topic.
That is a good point...but if you click on the link to Mishpacha above you'll see an interview with the secretary of the Lubavitcher Rebbe (they even give the latter a chassidish "zy"a"). That's far from their zone.
I specifically wrote "they'll discuss ultra Orthodox rabbis, yeshivas, or communities of the last 100 years". Chabad is ultra Orthodox
Sorry, I saw you wrote "the yeshivish media discusses the yeshivish community" and of course Chabad is not a part of that.
Mishpacha is interesting and a bad example for this because they actually have lots of Israel coverage
Mishpacha put Eylon Levy on the cover. He's definitely not ultra Orthodox.
Right but he's being promoted for something very specific and it's a given that it's not a hechsher for his lifestyle
What's Yoel Finkelman's book?
It's titled "strictly kosher reading". Highly recommend, it's very insightful and well-written.
https://www.amazon.com/Strictly-Kosher-Reading-Contemporary-Post-Modern/dp/1618110020
Off to Amazon now!
“the yeshivish media discusses the yeshivish community“
That is part of the problem.
I don't get the complaint. Mishpacha doesn't discuss hesder yeshivos just like HaMizrachi magazine doesn't discuss chareidi yeshivos. Just like Rationalist Judaism doesn't discuss chareidi yeshivos except to put them down. The complaint makes no sense.
Each of my sons chose a hesder Yeshiva that suited him after graduating Yeshiva high school in Canada. One of my boys went to Maalot in 2005. He wanted Maalot because he wanted a total Hebrew immersion (at that time they didn't have a chutznik program) and he didn't want the distractions of a large city.
It seems to me that ignoring hesder yeshivos is part of a larger picture, which is that the haredi world sees itself as the OWNER of Torah.
Only their interpretations and only their interpreters have legitimacy.
Haredi seforim do not in general quote non-haredi Rabbonim, unless it's to ridicule them or to use them as support for haredi interpretations.
Do dati leumi sforim quote charedi Rabbonim?
Rav Rimon and Rav Melamed will quote pesakim of poskim who are generally considered charedi. The sefer נפשי בשאלתי by Rabbi Yoni Rosensweig quotes across the spectrum in his footnotes. Those are some examples that do, there are certainly more.
I do not know of ANY Dati Leumi sefer or author that intentionally omits opinions by haredi Rabbonim.
To be honest, I don't think any Chareidi Yeshiva Bochur has ever heard of any Dati Leumi Rav, except for maybe Rav Kook and Rav "JB" as he is known in the Charedi world.
That is exactly the point Shlomo and Moshe Averick are making.
The reason why chareidi bochurim have never heard of tremendous talmidei chachamim who happen to be dati l’umi is b/c the chareidi world regards them like “amharatzim”, whereas the DL world does not do the same re: chareidi rabbanim.
Why not open one and find out? (Hint: the answer is yes.)
Can anybody here recommend some seforim that would introduce Mark to the vast world of DL Torah? I don't even know where to start!
I would prefer if more frum boys would go to a hesder style yeshiva instead of going of the derech at a charedi yeshiva where they dont emphasize the importance of eretz yisrael, ahavas yisrael and as a result the boys end up poresh m'hatzibur by not being part of the klal and neglecting the chiyuv mitzva aseh of milchemet mitzvah.
"These yeshivot exist with the full backing of the court and the rest of the country, showing that there is no “war against Torah.”"
Uh, no they don't. The seculars complain endlessly that the hesder yeshivos do not equally share the burden. Which they don't. 1.5 does not equal 3, no matter how you slice it. If chareidim didn't exist, the war on the Torah would be fought against yeshivos like the one in the video. They should be happy that chareidim exist to distract the secular public.
I'll have to search to find it, but I saw a position paper showing why the IDF feels that Hesder is of equal value. Basically it was to do with the fact that they are combat soldiers of the highest caliber, which is what the army has a great need for.
"I saw a position paper about something" does not equal "full backing of the court and the rest of the country", which is manifestly not the case, and is definitely very far from "showing that there is no war against Torah."
You need to look at it by community not individual.
There is potential for resentment when the Hesder kids "go home" after 18 months and the non-Hesder soldiers have another year to year and a half of service.
But, if you look at combat service on a community level, the Datiim/Hesdernikim probably serve in the highest proportions.
and, horrible as this is, the way to see that this is true is to read the biographies of the fallen soldiers,
Exactly the problem. The hesderniks as a community serve significantly less time than everybody else. Which is the pretext for the haters of the Torah to continually complain about the unfairness. Not that I disagree with your explanation, which is a good explanation.
The reason the Hester Yeshiva boys serve only 18 month - is the Israeli government, that according to you is so wicked and wants to destroy Torah, is accepting learning half the time as a way to support Torah. Basically, they are saying if you are a yeshiva boy, we will reduce your obligation time for you, and fulfill the rest of the time learning Torah. A Hester boy cannot leave learning and waste his time in restaurants, and eating in pizza parlors, (like so many of you guys) he has to do his obligation with learning Torah.. Go figure!
Funny how charedim can't see things right in front of their noses.?
A hesder boy can do all those things, just like a chareidi boy can. What kind of fantasy world do you live in? And like I said, the Torah haters complain plenty about the unequal burden of hesder too, and would complain a heck of a lot more if chareidim didn't exist or hesder was 10x bigger. Which is why the hesderniks should thank the chareidim for drawing fire for them.
Eating chulent Thursday nights increases shmad. Reading Hamodia causes shmad. Use of the letters 'ד, 'מ, and 'ש causes shmad.
Nah, eating cholent and reading Hamodia is שוויון בנטל. Chareidim who do those are sacrificing far more for the country than wounded soldiers. Chilonim can't even begin to understand how great the sacrifice of eating cholent and reading Hamodia is.
Also, hesder is not a solution to the shmad problem. And that's why you don't try to push it more often- after all, wouldn't positive messaging work much better than your constant volley of childish curses and insults? Wouldn't it work much better to use your platform to inform chareidim they can literally get the best of both worlds? Total strict observance and lifelong dedication to Torah, as well as army service and employment opportunity? But it doesn't work that way. In the DL world, hesder is not a separate community and educational system, it's an individual decision of young men, one that the vast majority don't make. That's why it's not a solution to the shmad issue, and why you have to write articles like this https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/why-risk-your-kids
Shmad issue in the army? - What the ____ are you talking about? Can you name me 3 Hesder Yeshiva boys that shmad in the army? Better yet, can you name me one? OTD is a problem all over, and that happens in the adolescent years. Once you hit the army years there is no greater numbers in each group.
SHMAD - You got to drop your far out fantasies!
The shmad issue in the DL community, which is much, much worse than in the chareidi community. In other posts Slifkin has written that the much worse OTD rate is worth it for whatever values you gain from the DL approach, here he implies that actually, hesder totally solves the problem.
Your definition of שמד is purely your own. This kind of insane exaggeration is effective only in increasing the level of hysteria.
Yeah, going OTD is shmad. I know you guys don't take religion seriously, which explains why chareidim will never find article like these convincing....
"OTD is shmad". Of course, OTD has more to do with the type of head covering than actual mitzva observance or לימוד. The more expensive the headgear, the higher the level of piety. Plus, your lack of life experience is showing.
אל יתהלל חוגר כמפתח
If you factor in years and years of miluim (assume a month a year for 20 years-- this year was of course much, much more), the difference in time served is much less than 2-fold.
But surely the folks who serve a full 3 years do miluim too…
So if you figure a lifetime total of 18 + 20 months for hesderniks, and 36 + 20 months for regular soldiers, the hesder guys wind up serving 2/3 as much time (rather than 1/2). Still not a great equivalence.
(I’m not suggesting hesder doesn’t have value if it’s own, just addressing your comment)
Actually, R. Moshe Shapira, whom you have criticized, went numerous times to Shaalvim, and a regular Chaburah of Shaalvim students came frequently to his home to hear Shiurim and talk in learning. Numerous Haredi Roshei Yeshiva visited Kerem B'Yavneh and other Hesder Yeshivos. The facts are that those who treasure learning value it wherever sincerity and Yiras Shamayim are present. Woe to those who use this issue as a wedge to demean and criticize others - קרדום לחפור בו.
Both Shalavim and Kerem b'yavneh are more politically neutral and slighly different hashkofos. Shalavim by good yekkish stock. Shalavim was founded by Poali 'agudas yisroel'. The clues in the name. Kerem b'yavneh founded by reb goldvicht who was very close to briskers etc.
As did Rav Zalman Nechemiah Goldberg and as does Rav Asher Weiss.
However, they are the exceptions -- and (including R. Moshe Shapira) not considered part of the ISRAELI haredi mainstream.
Well, Mishpacha Magazine is CERTAINLY not considered part of the Israeli Haredi mainstream, yet the author of this blog scours its pages to find an example of Haredi foibles and missteps. I guess he is just looking to find flaws and highlight them for whatever personal reason.
I don't do any scouring and I don't get the magazine. People send things to me.
Mishapacha represents the outer limits of the left-center.
When EVEN Mishpacha is saying something (or ignoring something), that tells you a whole lot about what those to the right of them (the Israeli haredi mainstream) is thinking.
More specifically, it tells you just how far Mishpacha feels it can go so as to not get into trouble with the haredi mainstream (including the American Rabbinnic haredi mainstream).
Mishpacha is anti-Trump. That is why most of Lakewood hates Mishpacha. Lakewood is the "Trumpiest" town in NJ.
Maybe the Mishpacha editorial board doesn't feel threatened that Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva would put them in cherem over having violated this particular one of the ikrei emuna?
Actually, Shlomo, you haven't the slightest idea of what goes on at a magazine like Mishpacha. There is no 'editorial board'. It's just a private business, with a couple of rabbis (buddies of the editor) in consultation - for window dressing, and to insure they stay out of trouble - run mostly by American women in Yerushalayim. The goal is to make money, and to do so by offending as few people as possible while getting a few laughs, and making as many people as possible feel positive about themeselves.
😂
I have no doubt that “Lakewood is the 'Trumpiest' town in NJ” but, let’s be honest, that’s kind of like saying that Hunter is the smartest Biden (it ain’t exactly a high bar…).
But, in any case, when Shlomo said “Mishapacha represents the outer limits of the left-center”, I assume he was talking about the “left-center” of chareidism, not of American politics.
Well written article Rabbi Slivkin.
Just on this point, it is not malice they don't write nor acknowledge the Daati Leumi community. Every group or chassidus only focuses on their own. Look at all the pamphlets or magazines that any chassidus puts out., they talks and praises their own or their Rebbe. Look at any Chabad magazine . Not sure the Litvaks deliberately don't include Daati Leumi in their publications, due to being embarrassed, or ashamed they do not do the same. (they should be!)
All I can say is, the true honest to hashem , good, caring, Jew is the Daati Leumi, I do regret I did not raise my children in that way, Today I would send then to a Daati Leumi yeshiva as opposed to the one they went to. I hope I will be able to influence my Grandchildren to go in that way. Don't we want the best for our children, and the ultimate Yid is from the Daati Leumi, Hesder Yeshiva community.
“Every group or chassidus only focuses on their own”
That is part of the problem.
Why is it a problem? Each chasidud is a cult - we know that - but why is it a problem? Are they bothering you?
When they are so focused on "their own" that they refuse to share the burden of army service (or the burden of other societal responsibilities, such as contributing substantively to Jewish society at large) they are "bothering" K'lal Yisrael.
That is why it's a problem.
I love Rav Aharon Lichtenstein's use of the word "pungent" in describing the gemaras judgment of people who only study Torah.
This should be spread far and wide, especially to parts of the Jewish communities which would rather ignore these schools and their stude
When I went to yeshivas, including Gateshead, One of the main topics of mussar drashot was "נושא בעול עם חבירו". This was presented as a great ideal. More than Gemillut Hassadim even, if I remember correctly. This subject was presented again and again. I dare not think why the current Hareidi community does not see this as an ideal connected with military service. I leave it to your imagination. Yet this truly seems to me an ideological contradiction. I don't know how the Rabbonim reconcile this, except to say that too many kids who go to the army end up Secular Jews. There is no overt discussion in their communities about this, regrettably. If there is any discussion on this issue, I believe it is all underground, or by families whose children have gone off the Derech. Secrecy denies the attempt at Reason and Truth. If there were open discussion on this issue, the pros and cons could be weighed. Honestly, not everyone who went to Hesder stays frum. But then, neither does everyone who went to the MIr. The Chareidi community does indeed have fringe lecturers who talk about how to deal with young adults who don't fit in. But this is not mainstream.
Neither logical nor sensible, nor congruent with some of the most basic principles of יהדות. Perhaps certain people's minds and ethics have become corrupted by their dependence on government money and the "kollel for all" paradigm. Sad.
Sorry, the Hebrew means colloquially "carrying your weight"
"The eighty hesder yeshivot refute all that. These yeshivot exist with the full backing of the court and the rest of the country, showing that there is no “war against Torah.” And the number of students in these yeshivot who drop out of religion is minuscule, since they are in a constant framework with their yeshiva."
Do you have any evidence for this claim? From googling around, I couldn't find anything specific to Hesder yeshivos, but the DL community overall is certainly losing a whole lot more of its members than the charedi community. (I'm sure it's the charedim's fault somehow....)
https://www.srugim.co.il/661125-%d7%9c%d7%9e%d7%94-%d7%94%d7%a6%d7%99%d7%95%d7%a0%d7%95%d7%aa-%d7%94%d7%93%d7%aa%d7%99%d7%aa-%d7%9e%d7%99%d7%99%d7%a6%d7%a8%d7%aa-%d7%94%d7%9e%d7%95%d7%9f-%d7%93%d7%aa%d7%9c%d7%a9%d7%99%d7%9d
בחינוך החרדי-חסידי 20 נוטשים את הדרך שחונכו עליה ונעשים מסורתיים/חילונים. בחינוך החרדי-ליטאי 30. בחינוך החרדי-ספרדי זה מטפס ל- 85.
ומה באשר לחינוך הדתי? ובכן, אצל המכונים חרד"ל – 210 מתוך אלף נוטשים את הדרך. אצל דתי לאומי 'מרכז': 310. ודתי לאומי 'לייט' – 510 יתגלו כעבור שנים ספורות כלא דתיים.
There's no such thing as separate "hesder" communities among the DLim. It's not some totally distinct education system. Only a small minority of young men go the hesder route, and it's their individual decision.
And then there's this:
https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-5623506,00.html
"מחקר דמוגרפי: הדתיים יוצאים בשאלה - הילודה הגבוהה מנצחת את החילונים"
בשני הקצוות, החרדים והחילונים - 94% ו-90% (בהתאמה) נאמנים לאורח החיים ולאמונה שעלי" חונכו. מבין "הפורשים", רק 1% מהחרדים הופכים לחילונים בבגרותם, 2% יגדירו את עצמם מסורתיים "ו-3% דתיים. אצל החילונים: 2% גדלים להיות חרדים, 1% דתיים ו-7% מסורתיים.
Here's an interesting question:
If the gedolim would get together and agree to have all chareidim drafted, but with the condition that it be a separate army, run only by chareidim generals, and answering to no one else except the prime minister (who is only authorized to command the army to fight or not to fight, but has no authority over issues of religion and culture in this charedi army).
Would you accept this condition and allow for the creation of such an army?
Where would “chareidi generals” get the experience to be generals? Tzivos Hashem?
"a separate army"
Separate. But equal?
Think about the consequences of having segregated units, and how it may influence decisions on which unit does what.
Chareidim in the US look at the Hesder YEshivos as halfway off the derech, just as Satmar looks at Lakewood as halfway off the derech. Satmar publications never discuss Lakewood, and Lakewood never discusses Hesder. It is like they don't exist.
Good framing. And the yeshivish see the Israeli dati community as halfway off the derech
Again, you have just restated the crux of the problem.
bingo
In the video, though, they still say that the Torah protects. The Torah doesn't protect, Tefilla protects, the Torah is what we're protecting.
They mention Torah protects because Torah protects. Beautiful, inspiring video.