It's very amusing that you think that the claim of a teenager, who himself is on track to join the IDF, is evidence that you don't need to go to the IDF.
Rabbi Slifkin, I never meant it as evidence that you don't need to go to the IDF! Just that the video is inspiring that it shows so many young men who affirm our Emunah that Torah protects! Torah protects! Torah protects! YES! Torah protects! Thanks for sharing this beautiful and uplifting message! Of course they also believe it is necessary to join the IDF, as a mitzvah and hishtadlus!
Good piece overall. But you should at least mention in passing the basic explanation for why the dati leumi community isn't discussed in yeshivish media: the yeshivish media discusses the yeshivish community.
In general, I realized years ago how narrow the topics discussed in yeshivish media are. They spend a huge amount of time discussing US national politics. For Jewish news, they'll discuss ultra Orthodox rabbis, yeshivas, or communities of the last 100 years. The topics inside of this "Overton window" are small. See also Yoel Finkelman's excellent book on the topic of yeshivish media, which I believe you've discussed in the past.
(As an aside, the same point can be made about the common yeshivish talking point that "all questions are allowed to be asked and debated". In fact, real robust debate is only allowed about topics within a very narrow Overton window; the only real robust debates allowed are in very niche theoretical talmudic discussions, using a narrow range of analytic methodologies.)
That is a good point...but if you click on the link to Mishpacha above you'll see an interview with the secretary of the Lubavitcher Rebbe (they even give the latter a chassidish "zy"a"). That's far from their zone.
That's certainly not the case. These questions cannot be asked in any open way in mainstream traditional ultra Orthodox institutions. If they're discussed at all, it's in secret, and the discussions are nowhere near as robust as for talmudic sugyot and halachic questions
Young man, I'm going to assume that you aren't just trolling us here. At this point in your life, you appear to have developed a sense of spirituality on the level of "Step on a crack, break your mother's back."
The only "rebbe" that can teach someone like you is suffering, and for good or for better, that shiur is going to come.
When was the last time you heard of a notable Rosh Yedhiva or a Gadol offering a shiur on the topics that you noted? Does Hashem exist, is the Torah true, Why did he permit the Shoah, etc., etc. I’d like to hear reasonable explanations to those questions, not — we just don’t know.
I don't get the complaint. Mishpacha doesn't discuss hesder yeshivos just like HaMizrachi magazine doesn't discuss chareidi yeshivos. Just like Rationalist Judaism doesn't discuss chareidi yeshivos except to put them down. The complaint makes no sense.
Each of my sons chose a hesder Yeshiva that suited him after graduating Yeshiva high school in Canada. One of my boys went to Maalot in 2005. He wanted Maalot because he wanted a total Hebrew immersion (at that time they didn't have a chutznik program) and he didn't want the distractions of a large city.
Rav Rimon and Rav Melamed will quote pesakim of poskim who are generally considered charedi. The sefer נפשי בשאלתי by Rabbi Yoni Rosensweig quotes across the spectrum in his footnotes. Those are some examples that do, there are certainly more.
To be honest, I don't think any Chareidi Yeshiva Bochur has ever heard of any Dati Leumi Rav, except for maybe Rav Kook and Rav "JB" as he is known in the Charedi world.
That is exactly the point Shlomo and Moshe Averick are making.
The reason why chareidi bochurim have never heard of tremendous talmidei chachamim who happen to be dati l’umi is b/c the chareidi world regards them like “amharatzim”, whereas the DL world does not do the same re: chareidi rabbanim.
I would prefer if more frum boys would go to a hesder style yeshiva instead of going of the derech at a charedi yeshiva where they dont emphasize the importance of eretz yisrael, ahavas yisrael and as a result the boys end up poresh m'hatzibur by not being part of the klal and neglecting the chiyuv mitzva aseh of milchemet mitzvah.
Actually, R. Moshe Shapira, whom you have criticized, went numerous times to Shaalvim, and a regular Chaburah of Shaalvim students came frequently to his home to hear Shiurim and talk in learning. Numerous Haredi Roshei Yeshiva visited Kerem B'Yavneh and other Hesder Yeshivos. The facts are that those who treasure learning value it wherever sincerity and Yiras Shamayim are present. Woe to those who use this issue as a wedge to demean and criticize others - קרדום לחפור בו.
Both Shalavim and Kerem b'yavneh are more politically neutral and slighly different hashkofos. Shalavim by good yekkish stock. Shalavim was founded by Poali 'agudas yisroel'. The clues in the name. Kerem b'yavneh founded by reb goldvicht who was very close to briskers etc.
Well, Mishpacha Magazine is CERTAINLY not considered part of the Israeli Haredi mainstream, yet the author of this blog scours its pages to find an example of Haredi foibles and missteps. I guess he is just looking to find flaws and highlight them for whatever personal reason.
Mishapacha represents the outer limits of the left-center.
When EVEN Mishpacha is saying something (or ignoring something), that tells you a whole lot about what those to the right of them (the Israeli haredi mainstream) is thinking.
More specifically, it tells you just how far Mishpacha feels it can go so as to not get into trouble with the haredi mainstream (including the American Rabbinnic haredi mainstream).
Maybe the Mishpacha editorial board doesn't feel threatened that Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva would put them in cherem over having violated this particular one of the ikrei emuna?
Actually, Shlomo, you haven't the slightest idea of what goes on at a magazine like Mishpacha. There is no 'editorial board'. It's just a private business, with a couple of rabbis (buddies of the editor) in consultation - for window dressing, and to insure they stay out of trouble - run mostly by American women in Yerushalayim. The goal is to make money, and to do so by offending as few people as possible while getting a few laughs, and making as many people as possible feel positive about themeselves.
I have no doubt that “Lakewood is the 'Trumpiest' town in NJ” but, let’s be honest, that’s kind of like saying that Hunter is the smartest Biden (it ain’t exactly a high bar…).
But, in any case, when Shlomo said “Mishapacha represents the outer limits of the left-center”, I assume he was talking about the “left-center” of chareidism, not of American politics.
Just on this point, it is not malice they don't write nor acknowledge the Daati Leumi community. Every group or chassidus only focuses on their own. Look at all the pamphlets or magazines that any chassidus puts out., they talks and praises their own or their Rebbe. Look at any Chabad magazine . Not sure the Litvaks deliberately don't include Daati Leumi in their publications, due to being embarrassed, or ashamed they do not do the same. (they should be!)
All I can say is, the true honest to hashem , good, caring, Jew is the Daati Leumi, I do regret I did not raise my children in that way, Today I would send then to a Daati Leumi yeshiva as opposed to the one they went to. I hope I will be able to influence my Grandchildren to go in that way. Don't we want the best for our children, and the ultimate Yid is from the Daati Leumi, Hesder Yeshiva community.
When they are so focused on "their own" that they refuse to share the burden of army service (or the burden of other societal responsibilities, such as contributing substantively to Jewish society at large) they are "bothering" K'lal Yisrael.
When I went to yeshivas, including Gateshead, One of the main topics of mussar drashot was "נושא בעול עם חבירו". This was presented as a great ideal. More than Gemillut Hassadim even, if I remember correctly. This subject was presented again and again. I dare not think why the current Hareidi community does not see this as an ideal connected with military service. I leave it to your imagination. Yet this truly seems to me an ideological contradiction. I don't know how the Rabbonim reconcile this, except to say that too many kids who go to the army end up Secular Jews. There is no overt discussion in their communities about this, regrettably. If there is any discussion on this issue, I believe it is all underground, or by families whose children have gone off the Derech. Secrecy denies the attempt at Reason and Truth. If there were open discussion on this issue, the pros and cons could be weighed. Honestly, not everyone who went to Hesder stays frum. But then, neither does everyone who went to the MIr. The Chareidi community does indeed have fringe lecturers who talk about how to deal with young adults who don't fit in. But this is not mainstream.
Neither logical nor sensible, nor congruent with some of the most basic principles of יהדות. Perhaps certain people's minds and ethics have become corrupted by their dependence on government money and the "kollel for all" paradigm. Sad.
If the gedolim would get together and agree to have all chareidim drafted, but with the condition that it be a separate army, run only by chareidim generals, and answering to no one else except the prime minister (who is only authorized to command the army to fight or not to fight, but has no authority over issues of religion and culture in this charedi army).
Would you accept this condition and allow for the creation of such an army?
Chareidim in the US look at the Hesder YEshivos as halfway off the derech, just as Satmar looks at Lakewood as halfway off the derech. Satmar publications never discuss Lakewood, and Lakewood never discusses Hesder. It is like they don't exist.
Wow!
התורה שמרה על עם ישראל במשך הדורות!
התורה מחזיקה את עם ישראל!
התורה היא שרש עם ישראל!
זה מגן, התורה מגינה על עם ישראל!
Torah protects! Torah protects! Torah protects!
How inspiring! Thank you Rabbi Slifkin for sharing this video!
It's very amusing that you think that the claim of a teenager, who himself is on track to join the IDF, is evidence that you don't need to go to the IDF.
Rabbi Slifkin, I never meant it as evidence that you don't need to go to the IDF! Just that the video is inspiring that it shows so many young men who affirm our Emunah that Torah protects! Torah protects! Torah protects! YES! Torah protects! Thanks for sharing this beautiful and uplifting message! Of course they also believe it is necessary to join the IDF, as a mitzvah and hishtadlus!
Good piece overall. But you should at least mention in passing the basic explanation for why the dati leumi community isn't discussed in yeshivish media: the yeshivish media discusses the yeshivish community.
In general, I realized years ago how narrow the topics discussed in yeshivish media are. They spend a huge amount of time discussing US national politics. For Jewish news, they'll discuss ultra Orthodox rabbis, yeshivas, or communities of the last 100 years. The topics inside of this "Overton window" are small. See also Yoel Finkelman's excellent book on the topic of yeshivish media, which I believe you've discussed in the past.
(As an aside, the same point can be made about the common yeshivish talking point that "all questions are allowed to be asked and debated". In fact, real robust debate is only allowed about topics within a very narrow Overton window; the only real robust debates allowed are in very niche theoretical talmudic discussions, using a narrow range of analytic methodologies.)
That is a good point...but if you click on the link to Mishpacha above you'll see an interview with the secretary of the Lubavitcher Rebbe (they even give the latter a chassidish "zy"a"). That's far from their zone.
I specifically wrote "they'll discuss ultra Orthodox rabbis, yeshivas, or communities of the last 100 years". Chabad is ultra Orthodox
Sorry, I saw you wrote "the yeshivish media discusses the yeshivish community" and of course Chabad is not a part of that.
Mishpacha is interesting and a bad example for this because they actually have lots of Israel coverage
Mishpacha put Eylon Levy on the cover. He's definitely not ultra Orthodox.
Right but he's being promoted for something very specific and it's a given that it's not a hechsher for his lifestyle
What's Yoel Finkelman's book?
It's titled "strictly kosher reading". Highly recommend, it's very insightful and well-written.
https://www.amazon.com/Strictly-Kosher-Reading-Contemporary-Post-Modern/dp/1618110020
Off to Amazon now!
“the yeshivish media discusses the yeshivish community“
That is part of the problem.
That's certainly not the case. These questions cannot be asked in any open way in mainstream traditional ultra Orthodox institutions. If they're discussed at all, it's in secret, and the discussions are nowhere near as robust as for talmudic sugyot and halachic questions
Actually, in traditional yeshivot, asking fundamental questions, such as for proofs of God, is not acceptable
Well, all the experiences that I'm aware of were the opposite
"It's a niche topic, like techeiles".
Young man, I'm going to assume that you aren't just trolling us here. At this point in your life, you appear to have developed a sense of spirituality on the level of "Step on a crack, break your mother's back."
The only "rebbe" that can teach someone like you is suffering, and for good or for better, that shiur is going to come.
@Evil Sorcerer,
When was the last time you heard of a notable Rosh Yedhiva or a Gadol offering a shiur on the topics that you noted? Does Hashem exist, is the Torah true, Why did he permit the Shoah, etc., etc. I’d like to hear reasonable explanations to those questions, not — we just don’t know.
I don't get the complaint. Mishpacha doesn't discuss hesder yeshivos just like HaMizrachi magazine doesn't discuss chareidi yeshivos. Just like Rationalist Judaism doesn't discuss chareidi yeshivos except to put them down. The complaint makes no sense.
Each of my sons chose a hesder Yeshiva that suited him after graduating Yeshiva high school in Canada. One of my boys went to Maalot in 2005. He wanted Maalot because he wanted a total Hebrew immersion (at that time they didn't have a chutznik program) and he didn't want the distractions of a large city.
It seems to me that ignoring hesder yeshivos is part of a larger picture, which is that the haredi world sees itself as the OWNER of Torah.
Only their interpretations and only their interpreters have legitimacy.
Haredi seforim do not in general quote non-haredi Rabbonim, unless it's to ridicule them or to use them as support for haredi interpretations.
Do dati leumi sforim quote charedi Rabbonim?
Rav Rimon and Rav Melamed will quote pesakim of poskim who are generally considered charedi. The sefer נפשי בשאלתי by Rabbi Yoni Rosensweig quotes across the spectrum in his footnotes. Those are some examples that do, there are certainly more.
I do not know of ANY Dati Leumi sefer or author that intentionally omits opinions by haredi Rabbonim.
To be honest, I don't think any Chareidi Yeshiva Bochur has ever heard of any Dati Leumi Rav, except for maybe Rav Kook and Rav "JB" as he is known in the Charedi world.
That is exactly the point Shlomo and Moshe Averick are making.
The reason why chareidi bochurim have never heard of tremendous talmidei chachamim who happen to be dati l’umi is b/c the chareidi world regards them like “amharatzim”, whereas the DL world does not do the same re: chareidi rabbanim.
Why not open one and find out? (Hint: the answer is yes.)
Can anybody here recommend some seforim that would introduce Mark to the vast world of DL Torah? I don't even know where to start!
I would prefer if more frum boys would go to a hesder style yeshiva instead of going of the derech at a charedi yeshiva where they dont emphasize the importance of eretz yisrael, ahavas yisrael and as a result the boys end up poresh m'hatzibur by not being part of the klal and neglecting the chiyuv mitzva aseh of milchemet mitzvah.
Actually, R. Moshe Shapira, whom you have criticized, went numerous times to Shaalvim, and a regular Chaburah of Shaalvim students came frequently to his home to hear Shiurim and talk in learning. Numerous Haredi Roshei Yeshiva visited Kerem B'Yavneh and other Hesder Yeshivos. The facts are that those who treasure learning value it wherever sincerity and Yiras Shamayim are present. Woe to those who use this issue as a wedge to demean and criticize others - קרדום לחפור בו.
Both Shalavim and Kerem b'yavneh are more politically neutral and slighly different hashkofos. Shalavim by good yekkish stock. Shalavim was founded by Poali 'agudas yisroel'. The clues in the name. Kerem b'yavneh founded by reb goldvicht who was very close to briskers etc.
As did Rav Zalman Nechemiah Goldberg and as does Rav Asher Weiss.
However, they are the exceptions -- and (including R. Moshe Shapira) not considered part of the ISRAELI haredi mainstream.
Well, Mishpacha Magazine is CERTAINLY not considered part of the Israeli Haredi mainstream, yet the author of this blog scours its pages to find an example of Haredi foibles and missteps. I guess he is just looking to find flaws and highlight them for whatever personal reason.
I don't do any scouring and I don't get the magazine. People send things to me.
Mishapacha represents the outer limits of the left-center.
When EVEN Mishpacha is saying something (or ignoring something), that tells you a whole lot about what those to the right of them (the Israeli haredi mainstream) is thinking.
More specifically, it tells you just how far Mishpacha feels it can go so as to not get into trouble with the haredi mainstream (including the American Rabbinnic haredi mainstream).
Mishpacha is anti-Trump. That is why most of Lakewood hates Mishpacha. Lakewood is the "Trumpiest" town in NJ.
Maybe the Mishpacha editorial board doesn't feel threatened that Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva would put them in cherem over having violated this particular one of the ikrei emuna?
Actually, Shlomo, you haven't the slightest idea of what goes on at a magazine like Mishpacha. There is no 'editorial board'. It's just a private business, with a couple of rabbis (buddies of the editor) in consultation - for window dressing, and to insure they stay out of trouble - run mostly by American women in Yerushalayim. The goal is to make money, and to do so by offending as few people as possible while getting a few laughs, and making as many people as possible feel positive about themeselves.
😂
I have no doubt that “Lakewood is the 'Trumpiest' town in NJ” but, let’s be honest, that’s kind of like saying that Hunter is the smartest Biden (it ain’t exactly a high bar…).
But, in any case, when Shlomo said “Mishapacha represents the outer limits of the left-center”, I assume he was talking about the “left-center” of chareidism, not of American politics.
Well written article Rabbi Slivkin.
Just on this point, it is not malice they don't write nor acknowledge the Daati Leumi community. Every group or chassidus only focuses on their own. Look at all the pamphlets or magazines that any chassidus puts out., they talks and praises their own or their Rebbe. Look at any Chabad magazine . Not sure the Litvaks deliberately don't include Daati Leumi in their publications, due to being embarrassed, or ashamed they do not do the same. (they should be!)
All I can say is, the true honest to hashem , good, caring, Jew is the Daati Leumi, I do regret I did not raise my children in that way, Today I would send then to a Daati Leumi yeshiva as opposed to the one they went to. I hope I will be able to influence my Grandchildren to go in that way. Don't we want the best for our children, and the ultimate Yid is from the Daati Leumi, Hesder Yeshiva community.
“Every group or chassidus only focuses on their own”
That is part of the problem.
Why is it a problem? Each chasidud is a cult - we know that - but why is it a problem? Are they bothering you?
When they are so focused on "their own" that they refuse to share the burden of army service (or the burden of other societal responsibilities, such as contributing substantively to Jewish society at large) they are "bothering" K'lal Yisrael.
That is why it's a problem.
I love Rav Aharon Lichtenstein's use of the word "pungent" in describing the gemaras judgment of people who only study Torah.
This should be spread far and wide, especially to parts of the Jewish communities which would rather ignore these schools and their stude
When I went to yeshivas, including Gateshead, One of the main topics of mussar drashot was "נושא בעול עם חבירו". This was presented as a great ideal. More than Gemillut Hassadim even, if I remember correctly. This subject was presented again and again. I dare not think why the current Hareidi community does not see this as an ideal connected with military service. I leave it to your imagination. Yet this truly seems to me an ideological contradiction. I don't know how the Rabbonim reconcile this, except to say that too many kids who go to the army end up Secular Jews. There is no overt discussion in their communities about this, regrettably. If there is any discussion on this issue, I believe it is all underground, or by families whose children have gone off the Derech. Secrecy denies the attempt at Reason and Truth. If there were open discussion on this issue, the pros and cons could be weighed. Honestly, not everyone who went to Hesder stays frum. But then, neither does everyone who went to the MIr. The Chareidi community does indeed have fringe lecturers who talk about how to deal with young adults who don't fit in. But this is not mainstream.
Neither logical nor sensible, nor congruent with some of the most basic principles of יהדות. Perhaps certain people's minds and ethics have become corrupted by their dependence on government money and the "kollel for all" paradigm. Sad.
Sorry, the Hebrew means colloquially "carrying your weight"
Here's an interesting question:
If the gedolim would get together and agree to have all chareidim drafted, but with the condition that it be a separate army, run only by chareidim generals, and answering to no one else except the prime minister (who is only authorized to command the army to fight or not to fight, but has no authority over issues of religion and culture in this charedi army).
Would you accept this condition and allow for the creation of such an army?
Where would “chareidi generals” get the experience to be generals? Tzivos Hashem?
"a separate army"
Separate. But equal?
Think about the consequences of having segregated units, and how it may influence decisions on which unit does what.
Chareidim in the US look at the Hesder YEshivos as halfway off the derech, just as Satmar looks at Lakewood as halfway off the derech. Satmar publications never discuss Lakewood, and Lakewood never discusses Hesder. It is like they don't exist.
Good framing. And the yeshivish see the Israeli dati community as halfway off the derech
Again, you have just restated the crux of the problem.
In the video, though, they still say that the Torah protects. The Torah doesn't protect, Tefilla protects, the Torah is what we're protecting.
They mention Torah protects because Torah protects. Beautiful, inspiring video.
I am in tears. This is so incredible. I know many very special graduates of Yeshivat Maalot. Not surprised at this endeavor. Kol hakavod to them.
I am from NY and am surprised that the number is so high. Can you provide a link to show backing for your 1 million non-harei religious jew number?
https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2016/03/israel_survey_overview.hebrew_final.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel
If you Google "religious affiliation in Israel", you'll see lots of other sources, and all seem to give similar numbers.