Not to disagree with the specific point, but it's nevertheless curious that while you criticized anti-Semitism while making exceptions, your application to charedim was only to highlight the exceptions and completely ignore the primary comparison, which is that being anti-charedi overall would be bad! A huge percentage, whether it is more or less than half I have no idea, are fine people who are in a community and following its norms, who would follow opportunities to work, enlist, etc. if they were guided in a way that was open to that.
This has been a primary criticism of mine against you due as long time, which you have not heard mostly because you've focused on the leadership more and there is no question about everything wrong with how they're handling this stage of the mess. But this post was glaringly ignoring half your setup analogy and you should finish it - hopefully with the respect and understanding average followers in a rigidly leadership-oriented community deserve
A majority may be fine people, but if a large number are not willing to take immediate and serious steps to educate their children, prepare them to enter the workforce and recognize that they are a part of a larger society then the projections show that the economy will collapse as soon as 25 years from now. The rabbinic leadership believes that the closed Haredi economy will survive that collapse somehow, perhaps by a miracle.
If as you say, half of the Charedim are fine people why aren’t they working, serving in the IDF or doing National Service? It’s not just the corrupt leadership but their brainwashed followers who feel they are superior to other Jews, secular and Dati who serve in the IDF to protect these privileged, selfish shirkers. If your so called ‘half’ were very fine people they would be joining the IDF to help make up for the much needed manpower shortages. Sorry, not buying it.
You don't understand their community. It would be the ultimate sacrifice that would destroy their families and their futures forever and they would be seen as enemies and traitors unwelcome in their communities if they join the army and as ninth class citizens if they go to work, aside from which they are raised to be passive followers and not even aware of the relevant considerations to make such an insanely radical and revolutionary decision (from their perspective) on their own. They feel terrible about the situation and wish there was something they could do. But they're trapped. From their point of view, you may as well be suggesting they convert to Christianity, which is all about love and beauty and it's much better than Judaism. It's easy to judge from the outside but with all due respect, as far as the actual mindset of the real people in the community, your comment is detached from reality.
Let me get the 🎻🎻🎻’s out why ordinary Israelis are suffering, like orphans and widows and families who make sacrifices why they go to USA to act like victims. The state of Israel gives them money and they go to the USA to shill off a gullible and naive population that it isn’t helping the situation. Enabling their freeloading lifestyle. My tzedaka only goes to people who serve or do both. What dont you get about Israelis, secular and Dati being fed up with a selfish population who didnt even bother to visit injured soldiers, grieving families and hostage families etc?! You refuse to see the ugly truth while making pathetic excuses for unacceptable behaviour. Enough is enough. I am done arguing with you.
One more thing. My while family lives in Israel and is dati leumi. A nephew was on the front lines on 10/7, helped disable an Arab car with an Israeli hostage in the trunk who they saved and fought in Gaza for two years, leaving with PTSD to the point that since he went on the standard trip after his service he's been afraid to come back to Israel. I have many nieces and nephews who are in or were in the army and my family went to funerals and shiva houses constantly during the war - and have almost all come to have deep anger towards the charedim for good reason. I get it probably more than you do (though, honestly, I'm not comparing and this is no "contest"). But I also understand charedi society and told it like it is. Your version of lashing out will only make it worse and I want to see actual change so the charedi community takes the responsibility they need to
The funny thing is I agree with this comment in full until the part about me. It's not an excuse. It's ugly. I hate it. But I want to do what can help instead of just venting anger and hatred, as justified as it may be. Empowering the decent people within the community and creating a wedge between them and their leadership who have gone off the deep end. That's all I'm adding.
My intention wasn’t to insult you. So forgive me. But I am just fed up with excuses. One of my friend’s son is in Givati in Lebanon while another friend’s son is serving in a special unit and her daughter is in reserves. They are rightfully very upset about what is going in this current government who placates and enables them especially when Dati Jews serve and there is a unit for Charedi soldiers. In fact more Jews might to turn to Torah if secular Jews didn’t see how the Charedi community behaves. As my Israeli friend told me, not every Jew is fit to fight, there are other jobs needed in the IDF, such as cooking, office work, logistics etc. Then there is a National Service, where one can be tour guides, camp counselors etc. There are plenty of opportunities to do one’s bit.
There is a Charedi unit, sorry. They have choices and hurting Klal Yisrael is not alright and they DO have a choice. They are not following Torah where there is a census where able bodied men above 20 must fight to protect the Jewish people. We read about in last weeks parsha. Stop making excuses for their behaviour. They have been indulged and enabled for far too long. Only a strong dose of reality, such as cutting of their freeloading from the State will wake them up.
There is a difference between a sociological explanation and an excuse. I blame the leadership completely and I was hoping cutting of funding would help but all it did was take hundreds of millions out of the pockets of US organizations. Demonizing goes nowhere. Finding a solution that works is the only solution that is worthwhile
No funding in Israel has been cut from these shirkers, what are you talking about? In fact the opposite has happened. Criticism is not ‘demonisation’. They refer to the IDF, and the government as Nazis but are such hypocrites that they are happy to freeload from the government and the Israeli taxpayer. My friend’s son is serving in Lebanon. I am fed up with people like you making every type of excuse for them. The solution is to cut off the funding, get a job, serve in the IDF or do National Service for them to become productive citizens and taught the basics in Education. Non of this against the Torah. Barring them doing any of this then, no right to participate in elections.
Why do you think they had to go raise over $210 million over the last year and a half? Their funding was cute dramatically.
The only difference between us is that you think anger and "I've had enough"ism is going to do anything but make the situation worse. There is a growing community within the charedi world as I described who are not ready to rebel but whose attitudes are shifting and the last thing you want to do is radicalize them, too, by proving the state is their enemy. Anger driven responses are the most effective way of making a bad situation worse
The Militant is the official newspaper of the Socialist Workers Party, which historically was the Trotskyite Party in the US. Bernie Sanders was briefly associated with it around 1980. I had no idea it was still around and was stunned to discover that it is now pro-Israel! Back in the 1940s, the far left were the biggest supporters of Zionism in the US, but that was a long time ago.
Here is an interview with the SWP's 2024 Presidential candidate:
My family member wrote for the militant and all his socialist friends are vehemently anti Israel.Almost no democrats today are pro Israel except old line democrats.The party itself is either mute or want to defund Israel.Same with the left parties in all of western Europe,especially Spain,France and Britain!
" his socialist friends are vehemently anti Israel"
And that is why I was stunned to find that the Socialist Workers Party today is so pro-Israel.
"Almost no democrats today are pro Israel except old line democrats."
I can personally tell you that there are plenty of Democrats of all ages who support Israel. In my congressional district we just renominated Ritchie Torres with 73% of the vote; Trump managed only 25% of the vote here. Democratic Majority for Israel supported eleven candidates for Congress in New York; nine got nominated.
A problem is that Republicans are targeting pro-Israel Democrats. Just this past May, their gerrymandering disappeared the districts of five pro-Israel Democrats in Congress from Florida and Tennessee.
Not to disagree with the specific point, but it's nevertheless curious that while you criticized anti-Semitism while making exceptions, your application to charedim was only to highlight the exceptions and completely ignore the primary comparison, which is that being anti-charedi overall would be bad! A huge percentage, whether it is more or less than half I have no idea, are fine people who are in a community and following its norms, who would follow opportunities to work, enlist, etc. if they were guided in a way that was open to that.
This has been a primary criticism of mine against you due as long time, which you have not heard mostly because you've focused on the leadership more and there is no question about everything wrong with how they're handling this stage of the mess. But this post was glaringly ignoring half your setup analogy and you should finish it - hopefully with the respect and understanding average followers in a rigidly leadership-oriented community deserve
A majority may be fine people, but if a large number are not willing to take immediate and serious steps to educate their children, prepare them to enter the workforce and recognize that they are a part of a larger society then the projections show that the economy will collapse as soon as 25 years from now. The rabbinic leadership believes that the closed Haredi economy will survive that collapse somehow, perhaps by a miracle.
If as you say, half of the Charedim are fine people why aren’t they working, serving in the IDF or doing National Service? It’s not just the corrupt leadership but their brainwashed followers who feel they are superior to other Jews, secular and Dati who serve in the IDF to protect these privileged, selfish shirkers. If your so called ‘half’ were very fine people they would be joining the IDF to help make up for the much needed manpower shortages. Sorry, not buying it.
You don't understand their community. It would be the ultimate sacrifice that would destroy their families and their futures forever and they would be seen as enemies and traitors unwelcome in their communities if they join the army and as ninth class citizens if they go to work, aside from which they are raised to be passive followers and not even aware of the relevant considerations to make such an insanely radical and revolutionary decision (from their perspective) on their own. They feel terrible about the situation and wish there was something they could do. But they're trapped. From their point of view, you may as well be suggesting they convert to Christianity, which is all about love and beauty and it's much better than Judaism. It's easy to judge from the outside but with all due respect, as far as the actual mindset of the real people in the community, your comment is detached from reality.
Let me get the 🎻🎻🎻’s out why ordinary Israelis are suffering, like orphans and widows and families who make sacrifices why they go to USA to act like victims. The state of Israel gives them money and they go to the USA to shill off a gullible and naive population that it isn’t helping the situation. Enabling their freeloading lifestyle. My tzedaka only goes to people who serve or do both. What dont you get about Israelis, secular and Dati being fed up with a selfish population who didnt even bother to visit injured soldiers, grieving families and hostage families etc?! You refuse to see the ugly truth while making pathetic excuses for unacceptable behaviour. Enough is enough. I am done arguing with you.
One more thing. My while family lives in Israel and is dati leumi. A nephew was on the front lines on 10/7, helped disable an Arab car with an Israeli hostage in the trunk who they saved and fought in Gaza for two years, leaving with PTSD to the point that since he went on the standard trip after his service he's been afraid to come back to Israel. I have many nieces and nephews who are in or were in the army and my family went to funerals and shiva houses constantly during the war - and have almost all come to have deep anger towards the charedim for good reason. I get it probably more than you do (though, honestly, I'm not comparing and this is no "contest"). But I also understand charedi society and told it like it is. Your version of lashing out will only make it worse and I want to see actual change so the charedi community takes the responsibility they need to
The funny thing is I agree with this comment in full until the part about me. It's not an excuse. It's ugly. I hate it. But I want to do what can help instead of just venting anger and hatred, as justified as it may be. Empowering the decent people within the community and creating a wedge between them and their leadership who have gone off the deep end. That's all I'm adding.
My intention wasn’t to insult you. So forgive me. But I am just fed up with excuses. One of my friend’s son is in Givati in Lebanon while another friend’s son is serving in a special unit and her daughter is in reserves. They are rightfully very upset about what is going in this current government who placates and enables them especially when Dati Jews serve and there is a unit for Charedi soldiers. In fact more Jews might to turn to Torah if secular Jews didn’t see how the Charedi community behaves. As my Israeli friend told me, not every Jew is fit to fight, there are other jobs needed in the IDF, such as cooking, office work, logistics etc. Then there is a National Service, where one can be tour guides, camp counselors etc. There are plenty of opportunities to do one’s bit.
There is a Charedi unit, sorry. They have choices and hurting Klal Yisrael is not alright and they DO have a choice. They are not following Torah where there is a census where able bodied men above 20 must fight to protect the Jewish people. We read about in last weeks parsha. Stop making excuses for their behaviour. They have been indulged and enabled for far too long. Only a strong dose of reality, such as cutting of their freeloading from the State will wake them up.
There is a difference between a sociological explanation and an excuse. I blame the leadership completely and I was hoping cutting of funding would help but all it did was take hundreds of millions out of the pockets of US organizations. Demonizing goes nowhere. Finding a solution that works is the only solution that is worthwhile
No funding in Israel has been cut from these shirkers, what are you talking about? In fact the opposite has happened. Criticism is not ‘demonisation’. They refer to the IDF, and the government as Nazis but are such hypocrites that they are happy to freeload from the government and the Israeli taxpayer. My friend’s son is serving in Lebanon. I am fed up with people like you making every type of excuse for them. The solution is to cut off the funding, get a job, serve in the IDF or do National Service for them to become productive citizens and taught the basics in Education. Non of this against the Torah. Barring them doing any of this then, no right to participate in elections.
Why do you think they had to go raise over $210 million over the last year and a half? Their funding was cute dramatically.
The only difference between us is that you think anger and "I've had enough"ism is going to do anything but make the situation worse. There is a growing community within the charedi world as I described who are not ready to rebel but whose attitudes are shifting and the last thing you want to do is radicalize them, too, by proving the state is their enemy. Anger driven responses are the most effective way of making a bad situation worse
My apology
I recently discovered that there is a Marxist group in the US hates capitalism and supports Israel. From the current issue of its official newspaper:
https://themilitant.com/2026/07/10/us-rulers-war-in-mideast-aims-at-more-sway-over-resources-labor/
And from last year:
https://themilitant.com/2025/09/05/slanders-lies-of-israeli-genocide-in-gaza-fall-in-face-of-the-facts/
The Militant is the official newspaper of the Socialist Workers Party, which historically was the Trotskyite Party in the US. Bernie Sanders was briefly associated with it around 1980. I had no idea it was still around and was stunned to discover that it is now pro-Israel! Back in the 1940s, the far left were the biggest supporters of Zionism in the US, but that was a long time ago.
Here is an interview with the SWP's 2024 Presidential candidate:
https://www.jewishtimes.com/sitting-down-with-pro-israel-third-party-presidential-candidate-rachele-fruit/
My family member wrote for the militant and all his socialist friends are vehemently anti Israel.Almost no democrats today are pro Israel except old line democrats.The party itself is either mute or want to defund Israel.Same with the left parties in all of western Europe,especially Spain,France and Britain!
You are totally wrong,you leftist sympathizer.
" his socialist friends are vehemently anti Israel"
And that is why I was stunned to find that the Socialist Workers Party today is so pro-Israel.
"Almost no democrats today are pro Israel except old line democrats."
I can personally tell you that there are plenty of Democrats of all ages who support Israel. In my congressional district we just renominated Ritchie Torres with 73% of the vote; Trump managed only 25% of the vote here. Democratic Majority for Israel supported eleven candidates for Congress in New York; nine got nominated.
A problem is that Republicans are targeting pro-Israel Democrats. Just this past May, their gerrymandering disappeared the districts of five pro-Israel Democrats in Congress from Florida and Tennessee.
He is a leftist but one of the few for Israel as was the defeated Goldman.
Also Wesley Bell, who is facing a tough re-election challenge from the same horrible evangelical Christian pastor he defeated two years ago.
Agree. Right on target