I think that you also have to include elitism. Whatever the others do, we know better and do things better. We have nothing to learn from others; they should learn from us. The way to express that is to show that while they do their silence thing, we do even better and say Tehillim because that will help better.
In 2011, when a local police officer, Christopher Matlosz, as killed on duty in Lakewood, the RY urged the frum community to line the streets and pay their respects out of הכרת הטוב. So while the procession made its way down the street playing “Amazing Grace”, the yeshiva community stood in silence.
But as others have commented here, it’s only Kosher if the Gedolim think of it first. You can’t dictate to them what is moral and ethical.
Totally agree. In the U.S., gestures like that don’t threaten their identity. It's just part of being respectful in a non-Jewish country. But in Israel, where the broader society is Jewish and the values come from outside their daled amos, its a challenge to their lifestyle.
That’s why something like standing for the siren, which should be a basic act of unity and gratitude, becomes “problematic.” It’s not about halacha rather it’s about us and them.
There have been instances where Israeli Haredim have been encouraged to participate in funerals of non-Jews who were killed while defending Jewish lives. The first that comes to mind was that of the Druze police officer Master Sergeant Zidan Saif, who was killed in the Har Nof Massacre in 2014.
Nonetheless, Rabbi Slifkin's quote, "if the government decreed that everyone should commemorate the victims of the Shoah or Israel’s wars by learning Bava Kama, charedim would learn Bava Basra" is unfortunately very indicative.
It reminds me of something a friend of mine said, when he learned in Collel Tzemach Tzedek in Jerusalem's Old City. They used to have a long break in the middle of the afternoon (later they shortened the break to a half-hour: just enough for minchah and lunch). One avreich suggested that they learn daf yomi during the break. Another one got up and said, "No--we should learn Likkutei Sichos during the break!"
The Rosh Collel overheard the conversation. He said, "The person who suggested learning daf yomi will end up learning it. The person who suggested learning Likkutei Sichos will probably end up not learning it--because he only suggested that to somehow "outdo" the other avreich."
If it is about Yeshki, then it is more "remez" than "pshat"
from Grok...
"Amazing Grace" is a Christian hymn written by John Newton in 1772, with a message that forgiveness and redemption are possible regardless of sins committed and that the soul can be delivered from despair through the mercy of God. Its lyrics express themes of spiritual transformation, gratitude, and hope. Newton, a former slave trader who experienced a profound religious conversion, wrote the hymn reflecting on his own redemption from a life of sin and suffering. The phrase "amazing grace" refers to God’s unmerited favor and love that saves and sustains.
Key themes include:
Redemption: The line “that saved a wretch like me” highlights personal salvation from sin.
Hope and Assurance: Verses like “through many dangers, toils, and snares” and “grace will lead me home” convey perseverance and divine guidance.
Universal Appeal: Its simple melody and profound message resonate across cultures and contexts, often sung at funerals, memorials, and moments of reflection.
The hymn’s meaning can vary personally—some see it as a testament to overcoming hardship, others as a celebration of divine love. Its enduring popularity stems from its emotional depth and universal message of second chances. If you’d like, I can analyze specific lyrics or cultural uses in more detail!
*The* fundamental belief of Christianity is that we're all going to hell from the minute we're conceived, and only belief in Jesus will keep us out of it. "Saved a wretch like me" is a direct reference to that.
Judaism, of course, believes that we are born pure and accumulate sin through our own acts; thus, cleansing our soul is entirely dependent on our actions. (That we're able to do it at all is thanks to God, but He's not the one saving us.)
Is the premise of Grace the magic spell that is cast upon a follower of JC upon accepting JC that gives them grace to shrug happily forever more?
Does the Lord's prayer have Jewish roots or is that strictly of that construct?
I said that every morning at my private school in St Paul that had a vague Episcopalian affiliation along with singing Puff the magic dragon and This Land is our Land by Woody Guthrie🤷
Um, OK. Almost every line in the Lord's Prayer, with one possible exception, has a basis in Jewish teaching. "Amazing Grace" was written in the 1800's and does not.
I've always said: if it were the modern Orthodox who were known for smoking, the charedim would shout yehareg v’al ya’avor and attack people on the street for smoking publicly. If it were the modern Orthodox who founded Hatzalah, the charedim would find halachic reasons to fiercely oppose it.
It's like a gut instinct to oppose anything that comes from outside their own community. They create religious justifications after the fact, but really it's about maintaining separation and rejecting anything that even hints at national unity.
Last week on Yom HaShoah I was going to stand quietly by my office desk, maybe go outside. And then one member of my department suggested we all get together in the coffee corner and stand silently during the siren, and we did so. It was much more meaningful.
The employee who suggested it and set it up is a Muslim Arab, obviously not someone who lost any family in the Holocaust. I later made sure to compliment him on the effort, but he acted like it was completely natural.
And a salute to them (as opposed to what they did three years after the war), but the Arab Legion was the army of Jordan, not Palestine (the British tried to hold up the formation of the Jewish Brigade on the pretense that no Palestinian Arabs volunteered), and of course Yom HaShoah is not about military deaths, again a salute to them all.
That's the real irony. I think this was briefly done on Armistice Day in Britain in the 1920's, but basically standing silent for a siren is done in exactly *one* country in the world, and that country happens to be the *least* goyish country in the world.
That's not quite correct. On the 11 hour of the 11th day of the 11th month, in the UK, there is 2 minutes 'silence'. Althouth of course, 40 years ago you would hear over the tannoy in stores asking everybody to keep it, that's fallen out in multi-culteral Britain. But TV and radio still do it. No cars stop of course. And there is no siren, because most countries don't have 'sirens' any more.
הפורש מדרכי צבור אף על פי שלא עבר עבירות אלא נבדל מעדת ישראל ואינו עושה מצות בכללן ולא נכנס בצרתן ולא מתענה בתעניתן אלא הולך בדרכו כאחד מגויי הארץ וכאילו אינו מהן אין לו חלק לעולם הבא....
How so? He's the one writing a blog constantly criticizing Chareidim. I've recently come across this blog and have shared my opinion and assessment. Natan is obviously obsessed with Chareidim. Nothing wrong with that. I'm just pointing out the obvious that the Chareidim live rent free in his head. He'd probably be alot happier if he stoped focusing on criticizing Chareidim and languishing in constant negativity and give it a rest. But he can do as he wishes, rent free and all.
I think that that is one of the reasons he maintains this blog. If you don't like the fact that he points out the failings of the Haredi world, then don't read it.
True. Natan can continue to spend endless amount of time thinking and writing about Chareidim. He doesn't have to give it a rest. Natan is free to do as he pleases. But again, My point still stands - The Chareidim are living rent free inside Natan's head.
And yet here you are, piggybacking on the article he has taken the effort to write on the blog he takes the effort to maintain. Small of you. Not original, or even interesting.
And yet here you are, piggybacking on the article he has taken the effort to write on the blog he takes the effort to maintain. Small of you. Not original, or even interesting.
I'm just stating the obvious. If you want to live in denial that's ok. Someone who spends his life constantly thinking about the flaws and criticisms of fellow Jews and devotes a majority of his life to it, as you stated the effort Natan puts in writing and maintaining this blog, def has those he critiques living rent free in his head.
Nate, if you were convinced on a rational level that the Chareidi path was deeply flawed, yet on a subconscious level you still held a deeply rooted belief in its superiority (and you notice that other well meaning yet naïve ppl also believe in its superiority), you would also find yourself obsessively seeking ways to discredit it to resolve the internal contradiction.
Rabbi Slifkin, we do not live in a totalitarian state where people are required to rejoice or mourn in strictly prescribed ways. Yet you seem to demand that members of an ultra-religious minority within a liberal, multicultural society conform to the majority’s norms—and even the slightest deviation from those rituals deeply troubles you.
Take me, for example: I am far from being Haredi, yet I do not celebrate Israel’s Independence Day, as I believe the current State of Israel lacks true sovereignty. Nearly every significant decision it makes requires approval from the U.S. president (unless the legal advisor or the Israeli Supreme Court overturns it first). So what? Does that make me a bad citizen? Am I obligated to fire up a grill or cram onto an overcrowded beach on that day?
The truth is, not only the ultra-Orthodox but also simply religious Israelis have every right to feel disconnected from certain aspects of this country. That is called freedom of thought.
In a totalitarian state, people are legally required to do whatever the government says. Here you won't be arrested whether you celebrate or mourn. That's the difference. You can still be criticized.
As for what to celebrate on Yom Ha'atzma'ut, any Jew living in Israel who doesn't appreciate the State of Israel is denying reality. Without a state, we wouldn't be able to be here.
Independence Day is a day of independence—pardon the tautology. A country can be either totalitarian or liberal and still remain independent. Modern Israel, however, is dependent on a wide range of countries and organizations. Its every move is scrutinized under a magnifying glass. In Judea and Samaria, settlers can’t so much as put up a doghouse, so to speak, without the approval of the U.S. State Department. You're free to call such a country independent. I call it a quasi-state on the path to collapse.
How tragic that you are so small-minded and oblivious to the significance of the Jewish People having a place that, for the first time in two thousand years, guarantees a refuge for any Jew that needs one, and fights to defend the Jewish people.
What’s far more tragic is that after the Holocaust, far more Jews have been killed in Israel than abroad. And while antisemitism abroad might take the form of graffiti or a slap, in Israel it’s a bullet, a rocket, or a mass pogrom — like the one on October 7.
At the end of this screed there is a small note stating "praying for the recovery of Eyal Matan" a wounded soldier. That is extremely offensive. This website in general and this particular Post in particular play significant role in getting Israeli soldiers killed and wounded by removing the protection that is provided by achdut in call yisroel. The author of this blog has blood on his hands, so after playing a role in this soldier being injured, to then place a pious note claiming to be concerned about his recovery, is the height of hypocrisy.
In fairness, I know super-Zionist people, who've served and know many fallen, who say Tehillim. I personally don't approve (and just think myself), but it's not (in their case at least) due to anti-Zionism. That doesn't mean that isn't the cause here.
I think there's another cause too: People like to feel "different," that they're not going along with the crowd. (Ironically, this is very often seen among people who *do* go along with the crowd.) We like to think we're intellectually special. It's one reason conspiracy theories are so popular: "Oh, you sheep think some terrorists took down the World Trade Center, but *I* know better!" In this case, you see the charedim being pulled kicking and screaming: "OK, OK, we'll stand still for the siren, but we're going to do it *our* way!"
(I am leaving aside the actual implication of the notice you cited, which is, "OK, OK, we'll do it to be nice, but would prefer not to.")
You hit the nail on the head, Rav Slifkin. It’s another instance of publicly signaling their apartness.
And to add extra חוצפה to the insult they proclaim that their recitation of תהילים during these moments of others’ silent grief is somehow more Jewishly meaningful or valuable.
Are you sure "they" proclaiming their way is more meaningful or are you feeling a bit insecure and projecting that proclamation? Can't it just be that "they" connect better to observing the moment in that way so that's what they do?
Aron, I would agree that some (many? a few? most? I confess I have no way of knowing) are sincerely attempting to honor the fallen in ways they feel most comfortable with.
BUT (1) I have myself heard dismissive mockery from not a few chareidim who have only scorn for any zionist ceremonial observances of any sort, including sirens and moments of publicly observed amidat dom, etc., and (2, the main point) if you want to join the rest of am yisrael in these intensely painful moments you have to leave your own comfort zone and join am yisrael "ba'asher hu sham", even if you personally believe that the "sham" where they stand (literally stand, alongside stopped traffic in the road) is "inauthentic" because it's not in hilchot aveiliut. That's the minimum solidarity and participation required to earn others' respect, not to mention their tax dollars. And this is especially true when you know that so many people in Israel are disposed to think the worst of charedim. Today chareidim rightfully bear a greater than usual burden of proof.
I am pleased to report that in my neighborhood at least, charedim came into the street to stand last night, and I even saw some charedim pull over their cars, get out, and stand silently by the side. Bit by bit.
A note on Aharon's silence, which my father made note of over Shabbos. The word דומם isn't the normal word in Tana"ch for silence. Something that is דומם is either significantly understated (like Hashem's קול דממה דקה) or at a loss for words. To be silent usually uses the same root as muteness, חר"ש (as with Esther, the admonishment to Klal Yisroel before Krias Yam Suf, or in supplications like Ps. 83)
Who exactly instituted Yom Hashoah?Torah leaders? Orthodox Jews who follow the laws of the Torah?
No. It was from the Knesset in 1951 mostly made up of non -observant, bare-headed, Shabbos profaning "Jews" who were atheists, kofrim, people wbo didnt believe in Torah from Sinai and shabbos profaners.
The leader was Ben Gurion. One who knew him well said he never met someone who hated Judiasm quite like b.g.
What they have to say about Judiasm and religion is like what Mike Tyson has to say. It's meaningless.
There’s no shortage of "kefirah" in charedi circles either. Just look at the so-called "tzadikim" who deny that the establishment of the State of Israel was the hand of Hashem, and who refuse to recognize the open miracles we witness here every day.
And let’s not ignore the unimaginable amount of sinas chinam and chilul Hashem that was fueled by the Satmar Rebbe’s anti-Israel ideology. The hatred, division, and public disgrace caused by Satmar’s rejection of Yom Haatzmaut and Yom Hazikaron is far worse than anything done by the so-called "kofrim" who instituted Yom Hashoah.
See the שרידי אש שו"ת who calls for a day to memorialize יום השואה.
No. It was from the Knesset in 1951 mostly made up of non -observant, bare-headed, "
You're forgetting the Agudah. Did they vote for it?
It was also mostly the "non -observant, bare-headed, Shabbos profaning "Jews" who were atheists, kofrim, people wbo didnt believe in Torah from Sinai and shabbos profaners" who voted for all those contentious laws favoring Charedim.
Ari, this is Yom HaZikaron, not Yom HaShoah. Try to keep up in your mad hate.
Ben-Gurion once said that his dream was that every soldier would have a special compartment on his belt for his tefillin. Ben-Gurion wrote a perush on Tanach. That's some "religion hater." (His wife, on the other hand...but she wasn't prime minister and didn't try to be, unlike some others...)
But those kofrim took us out of exile. They fought wars that the frumme in Lakewood wouldn't be able too. The Gedolim were wrong when they said the state was doomed to fail. We have our setbacks but like the joker Ben Gurion said the state is the biggest accomplishment כלל ישראל achieved as a whole in 2000 years.
I don’t understand this being separate thing. When you were Jews in diaspora, yes. I get that, but Jews in Israel? Why should you need to be seen as separate from your own people? The Jews are separated from the nations by the command of Gd, but not from each other…..
Excellent, as always. However, I see nothing wrong with chareidim, or anyone else, saying tehillim quietly while standing during the siren. It's very respectful.
OF course, thinking about the victims and the significance of the day is the ideal. But for many olim chadashim, and many chareidim, they have no personal connection with fallen soldiers. And for the younger generations, they have no personal connection with holocaust victims.
So it's hard for them to think about the victims. But saying tehillim on their behalf is a way to respectfully honor those who were killed.
What good does thinking about the victims really do? As the events following October 7 have shown, "Never again" is an overly confident slogan. Divine retribution befalls our people when they stray, and if they sin once more, another Holocaust will follow. There’s something deeply mystical, at the very least, in reciting Psalms as the sirens sound.
Mourning in Halacha follows specific forms: reciting Psalms, kinnot, and other established practices. Standing during sirens, however, has no connection to traditional Jewish mourning rituals.
That said, I suspect the average secular Israeli doesn’t engage in deep reflection during the siren—at most, they might think, "Alright, I had a grandmother who died in the Holocaust… how sad," and little more.
Comparing the siren to the shofar is an intriguing idea, but ultimately it feels forced and speculative. As for the sirens that signal the start of Shabbat, no one treats them as sacred. In fact, in some Jerusalem neighborhoods, advances in technology have led to these sirens being replaced by Hasidic music.
Now, let’s take a look at the opinion of a rabbi who survived the Holocaust:
"Everything a person does should have real meaning. The reason people stand in silence during the siren is to serve as a memorial for the victims. But standing silently—how does that actually help, in practical terms, the souls of the six million holy ones who perished? In my opinion, there should be a law that when people stand in silence—both secular and ultra-Orthodox—they should also recite 'Shema Yisrael'.
Once someone asked my synagogue's gabbai what he does when he's riding a bus and hears the siren. He replied that he takes out a copy of the Mishna and studies it in memory of the Holocaust martyrs. That, for example, is something with real substance."
I agree, and I personally say Tehillim quietly as I stand. It just seems to be a better use of time.
But people don't need to be afraid that they are doing a transgression by standing silently for 2 minutes. How many of us are on the level of the Vilna Gaon that did tshuva for every second of bitul torah that he counted?
Different people grieve in different ways. I think if someone insisted I had to daven or say tehillim instead of standing in silence, I would feel antagonistic. If I had the option of standing in silence, and it didn't feel personally meaningful (whether or not it should), and someone made the suggestion to use the moment to say tehillim, I think that's a meaningful alternative.
In any case, its leagues different than ignoring the siren altogether. I don't think we all need to grieve the exact same way, as long as we all agree that we should grieve and remember, which maybe should be the focus if people are ignoring the siren altogether.
How should a Haredi Jew properly reflect on Holocaust Remembrance Day?
If he recalls Rabbi Elchanan Wasserman’s teaching—that secularists who placed their faith in nationalism and socialism were ultimately punished by both—is that acceptable? Or do you demand approval of one specific way of thinking?
No it's not acceptable. If you're going to chose just one person's teaching on the Holocaust, why must it be REW? Of all the great rabbis' teachings on the Holocaust why davka EW? It's not like you follow his other extreme opinions.
Why not meditate on Rav Teichtal or Rav Yisrael Spira?
I'd like to tell you that I am at the level where I need to divert my mind from the pshat, remez, drash, and sod of the words of the Tehillim as I recite them so that I can think about the day, the history, the traumas that we have absorbed and continue to absorb.
I think that you also have to include elitism. Whatever the others do, we know better and do things better. We have nothing to learn from others; they should learn from us. The way to express that is to show that while they do their silence thing, we do even better and say Tehillim because that will help better.
Yes, good insight.
I posted something similar above- that people like to think they're superior in general- but I imagine it's even more true of charedim. Good point.
Well stated, @David
In 2011, when a local police officer, Christopher Matlosz, as killed on duty in Lakewood, the RY urged the frum community to line the streets and pay their respects out of הכרת הטוב. So while the procession made its way down the street playing “Amazing Grace”, the yeshiva community stood in silence.
But as others have commented here, it’s only Kosher if the Gedolim think of it first. You can’t dictate to them what is moral and ethical.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/81351/lakewood-roshei-yeshiva-urge-bnei-hayeshiva-in-signed-letter-to-participate-in-police-funeral.html
Totally agree. In the U.S., gestures like that don’t threaten their identity. It's just part of being respectful in a non-Jewish country. But in Israel, where the broader society is Jewish and the values come from outside their daled amos, its a challenge to their lifestyle.
That’s why something like standing for the siren, which should be a basic act of unity and gratitude, becomes “problematic.” It’s not about halacha rather it’s about us and them.
There have been instances where Israeli Haredim have been encouraged to participate in funerals of non-Jews who were killed while defending Jewish lives. The first that comes to mind was that of the Druze police officer Master Sergeant Zidan Saif, who was killed in the Har Nof Massacre in 2014.
Nonetheless, Rabbi Slifkin's quote, "if the government decreed that everyone should commemorate the victims of the Shoah or Israel’s wars by learning Bava Kama, charedim would learn Bava Basra" is unfortunately very indicative.
It reminds me of something a friend of mine said, when he learned in Collel Tzemach Tzedek in Jerusalem's Old City. They used to have a long break in the middle of the afternoon (later they shortened the break to a half-hour: just enough for minchah and lunch). One avreich suggested that they learn daf yomi during the break. Another one got up and said, "No--we should learn Likkutei Sichos during the break!"
The Rosh Collel overheard the conversation. He said, "The person who suggested learning daf yomi will end up learning it. The person who suggested learning Likkutei Sichos will probably end up not learning it--because he only suggested that to somehow "outdo" the other avreich."
Oh my. And that is a *very* Christian song. Much more sectoral than a siren.
Isn't tznius a concern watching a music procession? Possibly using the wrong phrase but mixed voices etc being a prohibition for the observant?
"Amazing Grace" is literally avoda zara. It's a song about Jesus saving our souls.
If it is about Yeshki, then it is more "remez" than "pshat"
from Grok...
"Amazing Grace" is a Christian hymn written by John Newton in 1772, with a message that forgiveness and redemption are possible regardless of sins committed and that the soul can be delivered from despair through the mercy of God. Its lyrics express themes of spiritual transformation, gratitude, and hope. Newton, a former slave trader who experienced a profound religious conversion, wrote the hymn reflecting on his own redemption from a life of sin and suffering. The phrase "amazing grace" refers to God’s unmerited favor and love that saves and sustains.
Key themes include:
Redemption: The line “that saved a wretch like me” highlights personal salvation from sin.
Hope and Assurance: Verses like “through many dangers, toils, and snares” and “grace will lead me home” convey perseverance and divine guidance.
Universal Appeal: Its simple melody and profound message resonate across cultures and contexts, often sung at funerals, memorials, and moments of reflection.
The hymn’s meaning can vary personally—some see it as a testament to overcoming hardship, others as a celebration of divine love. Its enduring popularity stems from its emotional depth and universal message of second chances. If you’d like, I can analyze specific lyrics or cultural uses in more detail!
*The* fundamental belief of Christianity is that we're all going to hell from the minute we're conceived, and only belief in Jesus will keep us out of it. "Saved a wretch like me" is a direct reference to that.
Judaism, of course, believes that we are born pure and accumulate sin through our own acts; thus, cleansing our soul is entirely dependent on our actions. (That we're able to do it at all is thanks to God, but He's not the one saving us.)
I still think that it's a nice song. Hope that doesn't make me a heretic.
As the old expression goes, the Devil has all the best tunes.
"Imagine" is one of the most horrible songs ever, and also one of the most lovely.
Playing Amazing Grace on the bagpipes is a longstanding tradition at funerals of policemen and firemen killed in the line of duty.
a double whammy negative mitzvah?
Is the premise of Grace the magic spell that is cast upon a follower of JC upon accepting JC that gives them grace to shrug happily forever more?
Does the Lord's prayer have Jewish roots or is that strictly of that construct?
I said that every morning at my private school in St Paul that had a vague Episcopalian affiliation along with singing Puff the magic dragon and This Land is our Land by Woody Guthrie🤷
Um, OK. Almost every line in the Lord's Prayer, with one possible exception, has a basis in Jewish teaching. "Amazing Grace" was written in the 1800's and does not.
My jewy intuition gave me that sense, appreciate the affirmation, where can I learn more, I can still recite it without hesitation.
OK, but Jews have perfectly serviceable prayers of our own.
I've always said: if it were the modern Orthodox who were known for smoking, the charedim would shout yehareg v’al ya’avor and attack people on the street for smoking publicly. If it were the modern Orthodox who founded Hatzalah, the charedim would find halachic reasons to fiercely oppose it.
It's like a gut instinct to oppose anything that comes from outside their own community. They create religious justifications after the fact, but really it's about maintaining separation and rejecting anything that even hints at national unity.
Last week on Yom HaShoah I was going to stand quietly by my office desk, maybe go outside. And then one member of my department suggested we all get together in the coffee corner and stand silently during the siren, and we did so. It was much more meaningful.
The employee who suggested it and set it up is a Muslim Arab, obviously not someone who lost any family in the Holocaust. I later made sure to compliment him on the effort, but he acted like it was completely natural.
That is beautiful.
nice story
A few Palestinians were killed in action while fighting for the allies in the Arab Legion under British officers.
And a salute to them (as opposed to what they did three years after the war), but the Arab Legion was the army of Jordan, not Palestine (the British tried to hold up the formation of the Jewish Brigade on the pretense that no Palestinian Arabs volunteered), and of course Yom HaShoah is not about military deaths, again a salute to them all.
"chukkas hagoy"
Ex-goy here. Not once when I was growing up did I ever hear of a siren when people were to stand and be silent.
That's the real irony. I think this was briefly done on Armistice Day in Britain in the 1920's, but basically standing silent for a siren is done in exactly *one* country in the world, and that country happens to be the *least* goyish country in the world.
That's not quite correct. On the 11 hour of the 11th day of the 11th month, in the UK, there is 2 minutes 'silence'. Althouth of course, 40 years ago you would hear over the tannoy in stores asking everybody to keep it, that's fallen out in multi-culteral Britain. But TV and radio still do it. No cars stop of course. And there is no siren, because most countries don't have 'sirens' any more.
Oh, countries have sirens. They're just not used.
הפורש מדרכי צבור אף על פי שלא עבר עבירות אלא נבדל מעדת ישראל ואינו עושה מצות בכללן ולא נכנס בצרתן ולא מתענה בתעניתן אלא הולך בדרכו כאחד מגויי הארץ וכאילו אינו מהן אין לו חלק לעולם הבא....
Natan, can I politely state that the Chareidim live rent free in your head. Give it a rest.
Nate, can I politely (or otherwise) state that Natan Slifkin lives rent free in your head.
How so? He's the one writing a blog constantly criticizing Chareidim. I've recently come across this blog and have shared my opinion and assessment. Natan is obviously obsessed with Chareidim. Nothing wrong with that. I'm just pointing out the obvious that the Chareidim live rent free in his head. He'd probably be alot happier if he stoped focusing on criticizing Chareidim and languishing in constant negativity and give it a rest. But he can do as he wishes, rent free and all.
I think that that is one of the reasons he maintains this blog. If you don't like the fact that he points out the failings of the Haredi world, then don't read it.
True. Natan can continue to spend endless amount of time thinking and writing about Chareidim. He doesn't have to give it a rest. Natan is free to do as he pleases. But again, My point still stands - The Chareidim are living rent free inside Natan's head.
And yet here you are, piggybacking on the article he has taken the effort to write on the blog he takes the effort to maintain. Small of you. Not original, or even interesting.
And yet here you are, piggybacking on the article he has taken the effort to write on the blog he takes the effort to maintain. Small of you. Not original, or even interesting.
I'm just stating the obvious. If you want to live in denial that's ok. Someone who spends his life constantly thinking about the flaws and criticisms of fellow Jews and devotes a majority of his life to it, as you stated the effort Natan puts in writing and maintaining this blog, def has those he critiques living rent free in his head.
I'm pretty sure he's never gone by "Nathan". (I, on the other hand, have. :-) )
*Natan (auto correct)
This would be a perfect setup for Rabbi Slifkin to make a quip about Chareidim living rent free.
Nate, if you were convinced on a rational level that the Chareidi path was deeply flawed, yet on a subconscious level you still held a deeply rooted belief in its superiority (and you notice that other well meaning yet naïve ppl also believe in its superiority), you would also find yourself obsessively seeking ways to discredit it to resolve the internal contradiction.
Resolve? perhaps. Obsessive?not a chance. Again rent free....
Rabbi Slifkin, we do not live in a totalitarian state where people are required to rejoice or mourn in strictly prescribed ways. Yet you seem to demand that members of an ultra-religious minority within a liberal, multicultural society conform to the majority’s norms—and even the slightest deviation from those rituals deeply troubles you.
Take me, for example: I am far from being Haredi, yet I do not celebrate Israel’s Independence Day, as I believe the current State of Israel lacks true sovereignty. Nearly every significant decision it makes requires approval from the U.S. president (unless the legal advisor or the Israeli Supreme Court overturns it first). So what? Does that make me a bad citizen? Am I obligated to fire up a grill or cram onto an overcrowded beach on that day?
The truth is, not only the ultra-Orthodox but also simply religious Israelis have every right to feel disconnected from certain aspects of this country. That is called freedom of thought.
In a totalitarian state, people are legally required to do whatever the government says. Here you won't be arrested whether you celebrate or mourn. That's the difference. You can still be criticized.
As for what to celebrate on Yom Ha'atzma'ut, any Jew living in Israel who doesn't appreciate the State of Israel is denying reality. Without a state, we wouldn't be able to be here.
Nothing obligates you. But law isn't everything.
Sometimes people who think they're being all "sophisticated" are really just being jerks.
And trust me, you're (over)thinking this way more than most charedim ever do.
" I believe the current State of Israel lacks true sovereignty."
That's a reason not to celebrate Independence Day.
"we do not live in a totalitarian state "
That's a reason to celebrate Independence Day.
Maybe you could celebrate a little?
" Does that make me a bad citizen?
Citizen of what?
Independence Day is a day of independence—pardon the tautology. A country can be either totalitarian or liberal and still remain independent. Modern Israel, however, is dependent on a wide range of countries and organizations. Its every move is scrutinized under a magnifying glass. In Judea and Samaria, settlers can’t so much as put up a doghouse, so to speak, without the approval of the U.S. State Department. You're free to call such a country independent. I call it a quasi-state on the path to collapse.
How tragic that you are so small-minded and oblivious to the significance of the Jewish People having a place that, for the first time in two thousand years, guarantees a refuge for any Jew that needs one, and fights to defend the Jewish people.
What’s far more tragic is that after the Holocaust, far more Jews have been killed in Israel than abroad. And while antisemitism abroad might take the form of graffiti or a slap, in Israel it’s a bullet, a rocket, or a mass pogrom — like the one on October 7.
"After the Holocaust" is doing a lot of work there. History didn't begin in 1945.
At the end of this screed there is a small note stating "praying for the recovery of Eyal Matan" a wounded soldier. That is extremely offensive. This website in general and this particular Post in particular play significant role in getting Israeli soldiers killed and wounded by removing the protection that is provided by achdut in call yisroel. The author of this blog has blood on his hands, so after playing a role in this soldier being injured, to then place a pious note claiming to be concerned about his recovery, is the height of hypocrisy.
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-current-rise-in-anti-semitism
what achdut are you talking about?!
Aren't you nice.
thank you for your service!
*achdut in clal yisroel (sorry autocorrect changed it to call)
In fairness, I know super-Zionist people, who've served and know many fallen, who say Tehillim. I personally don't approve (and just think myself), but it's not (in their case at least) due to anti-Zionism. That doesn't mean that isn't the cause here.
I think there's another cause too: People like to feel "different," that they're not going along with the crowd. (Ironically, this is very often seen among people who *do* go along with the crowd.) We like to think we're intellectually special. It's one reason conspiracy theories are so popular: "Oh, you sheep think some terrorists took down the World Trade Center, but *I* know better!" In this case, you see the charedim being pulled kicking and screaming: "OK, OK, we'll stand still for the siren, but we're going to do it *our* way!"
(I am leaving aside the actual implication of the notice you cited, which is, "OK, OK, we'll do it to be nice, but would prefer not to.")
You hit the nail on the head, Rav Slifkin. It’s another instance of publicly signaling their apartness.
And to add extra חוצפה to the insult they proclaim that their recitation of תהילים during these moments of others’ silent grief is somehow more Jewishly meaningful or valuable.
Are you sure "they" proclaiming their way is more meaningful or are you feeling a bit insecure and projecting that proclamation? Can't it just be that "they" connect better to observing the moment in that way so that's what they do?
Aron, I would agree that some (many? a few? most? I confess I have no way of knowing) are sincerely attempting to honor the fallen in ways they feel most comfortable with.
BUT (1) I have myself heard dismissive mockery from not a few chareidim who have only scorn for any zionist ceremonial observances of any sort, including sirens and moments of publicly observed amidat dom, etc., and (2, the main point) if you want to join the rest of am yisrael in these intensely painful moments you have to leave your own comfort zone and join am yisrael "ba'asher hu sham", even if you personally believe that the "sham" where they stand (literally stand, alongside stopped traffic in the road) is "inauthentic" because it's not in hilchot aveiliut. That's the minimum solidarity and participation required to earn others' respect, not to mention their tax dollars. And this is especially true when you know that so many people in Israel are disposed to think the worst of charedim. Today chareidim rightfully bear a greater than usual burden of proof.
I am pleased to report that in my neighborhood at least, charedim came into the street to stand last night, and I even saw some charedim pull over their cars, get out, and stand silently by the side. Bit by bit.
A note on Aharon's silence, which my father made note of over Shabbos. The word דומם isn't the normal word in Tana"ch for silence. Something that is דומם is either significantly understated (like Hashem's קול דממה דקה) or at a loss for words. To be silent usually uses the same root as muteness, חר"ש (as with Esther, the admonishment to Klal Yisroel before Krias Yam Suf, or in supplications like Ps. 83)
It connotes stillness, which also includes silence. I'm not sure what the distinction offers.
Who exactly instituted Yom Hashoah?Torah leaders? Orthodox Jews who follow the laws of the Torah?
No. It was from the Knesset in 1951 mostly made up of non -observant, bare-headed, Shabbos profaning "Jews" who were atheists, kofrim, people wbo didnt believe in Torah from Sinai and shabbos profaners.
The leader was Ben Gurion. One who knew him well said he never met someone who hated Judiasm quite like b.g.
What they have to say about Judiasm and religion is like what Mike Tyson has to say. It's meaningless.
Fascinating yeshivish response, that doesn't deal with a single point the NS made.
There’s no shortage of "kefirah" in charedi circles either. Just look at the so-called "tzadikim" who deny that the establishment of the State of Israel was the hand of Hashem, and who refuse to recognize the open miracles we witness here every day.
And let’s not ignore the unimaginable amount of sinas chinam and chilul Hashem that was fueled by the Satmar Rebbe’s anti-Israel ideology. The hatred, division, and public disgrace caused by Satmar’s rejection of Yom Haatzmaut and Yom Hazikaron is far worse than anything done by the so-called "kofrim" who instituted Yom Hashoah.
See the שרידי אש שו"ת who calls for a day to memorialize יום השואה.
No. It was from the Knesset in 1951 mostly made up of non -observant, bare-headed, "
You're forgetting the Agudah. Did they vote for it?
It was also mostly the "non -observant, bare-headed, Shabbos profaning "Jews" who were atheists, kofrim, people wbo didnt believe in Torah from Sinai and shabbos profaners" who voted for all those contentious laws favoring Charedim.
Ari, this is Yom HaZikaron, not Yom HaShoah. Try to keep up in your mad hate.
Ben-Gurion once said that his dream was that every soldier would have a special compartment on his belt for his tefillin. Ben-Gurion wrote a perush on Tanach. That's some "religion hater." (His wife, on the other hand...but she wasn't prime minister and didn't try to be, unlike some others...)
But those kofrim took us out of exile. They fought wars that the frumme in Lakewood wouldn't be able too. The Gedolim were wrong when they said the state was doomed to fail. We have our setbacks but like the joker Ben Gurion said the state is the biggest accomplishment כלל ישראל achieved as a whole in 2000 years.
I don’t understand this being separate thing. When you were Jews in diaspora, yes. I get that, but Jews in Israel? Why should you need to be seen as separate from your own people? The Jews are separated from the nations by the command of Gd, but not from each other…..
Excellent, as always. However, I see nothing wrong with chareidim, or anyone else, saying tehillim quietly while standing during the siren. It's very respectful.
What's wrong with actually thinking about the victims and the significance of the day? What harm does it do?
OF course, thinking about the victims and the significance of the day is the ideal. But for many olim chadashim, and many chareidim, they have no personal connection with fallen soldiers. And for the younger generations, they have no personal connection with holocaust victims.
So it's hard for them to think about the victims. But saying tehillim on their behalf is a way to respectfully honor those who were killed.
What good does thinking about the victims really do? As the events following October 7 have shown, "Never again" is an overly confident slogan. Divine retribution befalls our people when they stray, and if they sin once more, another Holocaust will follow. There’s something deeply mystical, at the very least, in reciting Psalms as the sirens sound.
By your logic, we should never mourn *any* dead person. And yet halakha requires that we do, and for good reason. We are not wild animals.
Mourning in Halacha follows specific forms: reciting Psalms, kinnot, and other established practices. Standing during sirens, however, has no connection to traditional Jewish mourning rituals.
That said, I suspect the average secular Israeli doesn’t engage in deep reflection during the siren—at most, they might think, "Alright, I had a grandmother who died in the Holocaust… how sad," and little more.
Wow.
A mourner actually does NOT recite Psalsm, FYI.
What do mourners recite at a yearly azkara? ;-)
"has no connection to traditional..."
Silence is a traditional Jewish aspect of mourning.
Standing is a traditional Jewish gesture of respect.
The siren evokes the shofar which is a traditional Jewish alarm to awaken people during times of crisis.
That being the case, the Charedi practice of sounding a siren to warn people of the approach of שבת "has no connection to traditional..."
...or does it?
"I suspect ,,,"
You shouldn't be so suspicious of people you haven't met.
Comparing the siren to the shofar is an intriguing idea, but ultimately it feels forced and speculative. As for the sirens that signal the start of Shabbat, no one treats them as sacred. In fact, in some Jerusalem neighborhoods, advances in technology have led to these sirens being replaced by Hasidic music.
Now, let’s take a look at the opinion of a rabbi who survived the Holocaust:
"Everything a person does should have real meaning. The reason people stand in silence during the siren is to serve as a memorial for the victims. But standing silently—how does that actually help, in practical terms, the souls of the six million holy ones who perished? In my opinion, there should be a law that when people stand in silence—both secular and ultra-Orthodox—they should also recite 'Shema Yisrael'.
Once someone asked my synagogue's gabbai what he does when he's riding a bus and hears the siren. He replied that he takes out a copy of the Mishna and studies it in memory of the Holocaust martyrs. That, for example, is something with real substance."
https://news.walla.co.il/item/1819646
I agree, and I personally say Tehillim quietly as I stand. It just seems to be a better use of time.
But people don't need to be afraid that they are doing a transgression by standing silently for 2 minutes. How many of us are on the level of the Vilna Gaon that did tshuva for every second of bitul torah that he counted?
So why not just think about the day instead of thinking about Tehillim?
Different people grieve in different ways. I think if someone insisted I had to daven or say tehillim instead of standing in silence, I would feel antagonistic. If I had the option of standing in silence, and it didn't feel personally meaningful (whether or not it should), and someone made the suggestion to use the moment to say tehillim, I think that's a meaningful alternative.
In any case, its leagues different than ignoring the siren altogether. I don't think we all need to grieve the exact same way, as long as we all agree that we should grieve and remember, which maybe should be the focus if people are ignoring the siren altogether.
How should a Haredi Jew properly reflect on Holocaust Remembrance Day?
If he recalls Rabbi Elchanan Wasserman’s teaching—that secularists who placed their faith in nationalism and socialism were ultimately punished by both—is that acceptable? Or do you demand approval of one specific way of thinking?
No it's not acceptable. If you're going to chose just one person's teaching on the Holocaust, why must it be REW? Of all the great rabbis' teachings on the Holocaust why davka EW? It's not like you follow his other extreme opinions.
Why not meditate on Rav Teichtal or Rav Yisrael Spira?
I'd like to tell you that I am at the level where I need to divert my mind from the pshat, remez, drash, and sod of the words of the Tehillim as I recite them so that I can think about the day, the history, the traumas that we have absorbed and continue to absorb.
So wouldn't it be better not to say Tehillim for two minutes?
Don't make me come out and say it. (That I recite the words of Tehillim by rote while my mind is multi-tasking)
A better use of time? Is two minutes really such a waste?