"national identity was a very different phenomenon in Biblical times than it is today"
Ah, the siren song of the comfortable Westerner. "We'll give them work permits in Israel and they will never attack us, because the world has moved past such things."
Billions of human beings have not, in fact, moved past these things, and among them are the people of Gaza.
It was a very different phenomenon in the Middle East until about 150 years ago. The concept of a Nation State simply didn't exist. And yes, it was Westerners who imposed it on the Middle East. Jews of course had longed for a Nation State for over 2,000 years prior to 1948 CE.
Oh, boo-hoo. So they just HAVE to act like bloodthirsty animals then, right? Somehow the rest of humanity has figured it out. It's remarkable how much Left-wing political Kool-Aid you've drunk . . . Edward Said would be proud of you.
I think this piece is wrongly weighted, gives an incorrect impression. I do not think that other than a crazy miniscule fraction wishes to actually kill anyone- but that a large number of people, myself perhaps included, sees as moral, the complete destruction of the Hamas regime and structure, as well as justify the large deportation of Gazan population elsewhere, as: its impossible to live there- i.e. for their own benefit and for Israel's legitimate security. Their political identification with the Hamas means that they need be further away. Similarly if Arabs in Jerusalem or Judea/ Samaria support movements intended to uproot/ destroy Israel, they too need suffer the same fate. Only Arabs who accept fully Israel state legitimacy can be accepted and have full, personal rights. That's the outlook many would share here. It's 100% moral and one doesn't need focus on extremists to decry their wild views, shared by hardly anyone. This I feel your whole piece was just a bit 'off'.. lacking a proper grasp..
Wikipedia says: "According to military scholar Sarah Paine, the bombings likely saved millions of lives, as a quick end to the war enabled the resumption of food shipping which prevented further famine." I'll go with that.
William T. Sherman is often quoted in his "War is Hell" remarks as saying that war needs to be as cruel as possible in order that it can end as early as possible. His devastation of Georgia and South Carolina shortened the American Civil War by at least a year, maybe more. It also freed a lot of enslaved people a year or more earlier.
Today Sherman would be considered a war criminal. I think he should be considered a hero.
A far greater proportion of “regular“ Japanese probably had no particular hate or desire to kill Americans, than among Palestinians—where only the very young children are not yet poisoned by the antisemitic hate indoctrination.
Japan had a complex, nuanced culture. It might have for a time tilted into suicidal nationalism & warmaking, but overall it almost miraculously enabled them to move on, when they might understandably have remained mired in hate towards America.
There could not be a greater contrast than with the Palestinians, who, to the extent that they have any culture at all, it is largely reflective of wider Arab/Islamist culture, which evinces a stubborn refusal to give up on age-old grievances, grudges, and offenses to their supposed hojor.
Palestinian identity only dates to late Ottoman times. But Japanese identity really changed after 1854 when the United States forced it to interact with the world for the first time in centuries. Unfortunately, it interacted very badly very quickly and continued to do so for almost a century.
I think we can say that annihilating a civilian population for a political end is in fact wrong. If that's not wrong, then, really, nothing is wrong. If the end justifies the means, then rational objections to terrorism become impossible.
Not when they continue to terrorize others, cause destruction rather than construction. However we all know evil subhumans will continue to rise out of ashes… like skinheads and neo nazis … 💔
You know who else? People describing those who have through consistent, repeated behavior, forfeited any semblance of normal humanity—gleefully celebrating while terrorist savages—i.e. their sons & husbands & friends—drive around among them parading a girl's dead/broken/abused body in the back of their jeep (or have you forgotten those images?).
…People who repeatedly reject peace & the hope of a better life for their children, preferring delusional dreams of jihad & conquest—and who act on those delusions, ramming their cars into young children, hacking random people to death, blowing up whole families eating dinner together…
If ever a group of people showed consistent support for a certain set of principles, it's the Palestinians, who have never once meaningfully condemned a terrorist atrocity perpetrated against Jews.
Such people are behaving in a way that is subhuman. And all the hypocritical pearl-clutching about People Who Use Mean Expressions does not change those hard facts.
You're right that the Palestinians have developed and sustained a toxic culture of death and Jew-hatred. It's very difficult, if not impossible, to sympathize with such people. They appear to be beyond redemption.
I have seen this powerful argument made many times. Yet I have never seen those who make it carry their thinking one step farther to address a crucial obvious question. *Why* are they like that? The Palestinians of 150 years ago certainly weren't.
The answer of course is that *we* made them that way, by the way we have treated them, and continue to treat them.
Does that excuse or justify their many crimes and atrocities? Of course not! But it does *explain* their hatred and recalcitrance, and why they will never just clear out for our convenience and peace of mind.
Hillel taught us not to do to others what is hateful to ourselves. Yet that is *precisely* what we have consistently been doing, not just since 1948, but since Aliyah Harishonah (which included members of both my parents' families — so Zionism is in my bones).
Until we admit that, and change our approach accordingly, there will never be peace between them and us, while the global hatred of Israel and Jews everywhere will continue to grow. Pretending otherwise about either of these points is either messianic fantasy or rank dishonesty.
I am pretty jaded at this point, but I'm still just a little surprised at how Orthodox Jewry dismisses any concerns about Trump's dehumanization and scapegoating of minorities. There have been ample opportunities for religious figures to stand up and say "this is wrong," but only silence. It would be one thing if that was because we were afraid of the guy. Then that's just cowardice. But, sadly, I think it's actually because we approve of it. It turns out that we, who have been the scapegoats for centuries, are actually fine with scapegoating, so long as it's not us. The leader of Modern Orthodoxy's flagship educational institution is "honored" to be able to speak at the inauguration of someone who says that immigrants are "poisoning the blood of our country."
Charles Hall: Apparently it is okay to minimize the genocide of others if you are are Jewish. >>>
That statement is antisemitic, full stop.
Whatever point this person thought he's making—about someone who's Jewish being insensitive to other people's suffering (and I'm articulating it far more fairly & articulately than he ever did) is completely overshadowed by the way he chose to formulate it. Charles Hall is no friend of Israel, any more than he's a sincere advocate of justice, humane principles, morality or fairness.
(to be sure, he might be what passes for pro-Israel on the Left…sort of the way I might pass for a black guy—in rural Sweden)
"political end". You can use all the euphemisms you want. I'm not sure if you live in Israel, but this war is a war of extermination. We are not fighting for a "political end", we are fighting for our lives and the future of the Jewish people.
Call me crazy but I'd rather live than live in a Platonian world where I was murdered but I had the "right morality".
I think you must realize that everyone has reasons why things are special for them. "Fighting for our lives and the future of the <whoever>people" is exactly what everyone who has ever committed war crimes has claimed. That's exactly why morality and law have to be exerted. If someone kills my family member, I probably want to kill them, their family, and anyone who ever knew them. Morality and the law that encapsulates that morality say that I cannot.
So you think that the fact they call themselves 'freedom fighters' is actually valid? You do see the difference between us and them right?
Again, nobody wants to kill anyone, the people can leave to other places (not the murderers). God gave the land to the Jews (His decision, nothing I can do about it), and we should take it, first by giving them the option to leave. If they don't want, then they are the ones facing the consequences.
If you make God's will the issue, then everyone has equal claim. Everyone thinks God is on their side, that's almost axiomatic. Everyone believes they have the Master of the Universe in their back pocket. That is religion today. It's sad and pathetic, but that's what it is.
The original question was whether the end justifies the means... If vaporizing 200,000 civilians means we can have peace, is that moral? I said that if you can rationalize that, then you can rationalize anything. There are without a doubt those who have said, "If only we could move the Jews somewhere else, the Middle East would be peaceful and prosperous." On what PRINCIPLE would you declare that view to be wrong, if you advocate exactly the same for the Palestinians?
People constantly elide little things like the fact that extremely few Jews in history have ever behaved remotely the way the Palestinians as a group, overwhelmingly, do.
So while one may choose to disagree with a particular “extreme” view of Palestinians, any analogy to what people have said/done about Jews is a dishonest nonstarter.
You just aren't going to forcibly deport millions of people. There is no sense arguing about it.
If Donald Trump wanted to empty out Gaza, he could issue an executive order that anyone from Gaza should be admitted to the United States as an asylum applicant, and another executive order that anyone fearing persecution by Hamas (which would be almost everyone there) should be granted asylum. That would get around the immigration quotas. Most Gazans would accept such an offer! No moral issues for anyone not an Israelhater -- some people will blame Jews for everything, of course.
But given that he wants to expel current asylum applicants from places that have horrible regimes like Venezuela, people who share far more with current Americans in terms of culture, religion, and language, it is unlikely that he will do that. (Yes, language. There are twice as many Spanish speakers in the US as in Venezuela.)
Perhaps not forcibly- but deport, yes. The lack of structures: x percentage of buildings are destroyed necessitates this. I think the majority will willingly go.
That is why if Israel claims there will be NO RE-BUILDING OF GAZA, as we don't want to continue living under continuous attack as we did for the last 15 or so years. It is a valid argument since that is what happened already.
Then everything should fall into place, Give them a choice: live in tents and get on line for your water or food, OR look for a better life. We are not forcing anything on anyone . However, you have the choice of finding a new secure home in other parts of the world (preferable Arab if they want to take you). Leave the choice to them, and you will see almost all take the better route of a good life.
And they won't willingly go to a place that will never allow them or their descendants to become citizens. You would not either.
There is also the issue that forcing them into Egypt and Jordan will make it much easier for Hamas to stage terrorist attacks against Israel even if the Sisi and Hashemite regimes are not overthrown. And given that Hamas has already staged one coup.....
They will go as it's in their interest. Deport need not be forcefully. They will mostly cooperate as no proper food, services, housing..just rubble..where most lived. You seem to be arguing, politically, for these people. Why, exactly? I wish them a better life and that they be removed from our borders, further away. Good for them, good for us. But you appear to wish further strife and bloodshed.
Deport means forcibly. Please don't try to reinvent the meaning of words the way the far left and far right do.
Moving them to Egypt and Jordan is NOT "further away". That is what Trump is now demanding. Israel would have no peaceful border. You will get further strife and bloodshed. But the Trump Cult will kowtow and Trump will have another resort with his name on it.
I have already suggested that resident visas to Europe or North America with a path to citizenship would be embraced by most Palestinians. Other Arab countries offer no path to citizenship for refugees and the experience of Palestinians in Syria and Lebanon is not something that is attractive.
In any case, only an invasion by the US military would be able to force two million people out and it would be bloody. There would likely be mutinies in the US military because the officers know that they can be charged with war crimes under US law. If anyone dies as a result it is a death penalty offense with no statute of limitations.
You are very persistent - but mah la'asot? I don't agree. Moving them away is good for them and for us- as it may limit the seriousness of future bloodshed. Where exactly? I think it is better (for them) if it were in Arab countries. You seem to be quite oblivious to the fact that much of the building is rubble and living conditions are and will be very bad and primitive. I don't care much for misplaced nationalism in such circumstances, if these people want to kill you and support terrorism. No, they deserve removal and the regime deserves elimination. It can be done in a civilised fashion- and I think a large percentage will comply. So all your scenarios seem off to me- What motive do you have for all this: 'humanitarianism' ? Further continuation of unnecessary strife for millions here? Further hatred? Harms to Israel?
Charles Hall: Apparently it is okay to minimize the genocide of others if you are are Jewish. >>>
That statement is antisemitic, full stop.
Whatever point you thought you're making—about someone who's Jewish being insensitive to other people's suffering (and I'm articulating it far more fairly & articulately than you did) is completely overshadowed by the way you chose to formulate it. You're no friend of Israel, any more than you're a sincere advocate of justice, humane principles, morality or fairness.
Torah says very plainly that if they sacrifice their children to Molech they should be destroyed.
You can say what you want but the VAST majority of gazans either joined in October 7 or celebrated it.
Where is the underground resistance to Hamas?
Of course people are afraid of being thrown from a rooftop, but the free French resistance, the polish underground and other brave souls were willing to face unimaginable torture and death to follow their ideals. Where is that group in Gaza?
Children are not innocent's if they have been taught from birth to kill Jews, or anyone else for that matter. There is no difference from being blown up by a child carrying a grenade or an adult. Dead is dead.
The fantasy land that trump et al envision is going to be nothing more than another Monte Carlo in the eastern Mediterranean where filthy rich Arabs from dry, no gambling states can all go play.
After years of arguing with Palestinians and pro-Palestinians on various forums on the Internet, I notice that they have developed a well-oiled machine of witty answers and comebacks to always absolve themselves of any guilt, by employing whataboutisms and "tu quoque" arguments. The only way to "win" such an argument would be if Israel were composed of Gideon Levys and Gershon Baskins.
Argument: "Hamas explicitly says that they want to eradicate Israel".
Rebuttal: "What about Smotrich standing with a map of Greater Israel? What about the settlement expansion in the West Bank? We have Hamas, but you have Ben Gvir and the settlers!"
(They conceal the fact that only a teeny-tiny percent of the Palestinians really want a two-state solution where a Jewish-majority Israel is one of the two states. The vast majority of Palestinians look at a Judenrein Palestinian state in the West Bank as a stage in eradicating Israel anyway. If only 30% of Israelis at present think a Palestinian state is a good idea, that's the result of seeing the jubilation among Palestinians over the October 7th attack.)
Argument: "Look at the Palestinians: every time there is a terror attack that results in Israeli deaths, they hand out sweets, play music, and shoot off fireworks! How is it possible to make peace with such people?"
Rebuttal: "Well, look at these Zionists in the Gaza envelope cheering how the IDF is bombing Gaza!"
(Rabbi Slifkin dealt with this in a previous post, how they always manage to justify their barbarism. Here, they think that showing, "Well, you guys are just as bad" absolves them of guilt.)
Besides the inherent dishonesty of always using the same one or two Israeli names as a supposed counterweight to what the entire Palestinian society is like, it’s also utterly ridiculous what constitutes an “extremist Israeli”— it’s certainly a very, very different bar than being an “extremist Palestinian”.
Whatever cherry-picked examples of “racist” quotations exist from years ago, every statement I have read by Ben Gvir or Smotrich in the last year has been sensible, reasonable, and yes, strongly pro-Israel.
There is zero basis to claim either of these people would just kill random Palestinians in cold blood.
But tthere is tons of very plausible evidence that most Palestinians are perfectly fine with anti-Jewish terrorism.
So am I to understand that there is never justification in wiping out a population because there are always innocents among them. Including a culture such as Gaza- who place tunnels and arms around cribs, use their wives as shields, resources to attack not to build, etc. Does your stance assume that their culture is flexible; can become peace loving, productive, happily coexistent with Israelis?
YOUT STATEMENT "Even if people have an abstract wish to kill all the Jews, that is not justification for killing them, if they’re not actually putting that wish into practice"
I AM OT SURE THAT IS COMPLETLY RIGHT? What about the Palestinian Arabs that go out publicly in the streets and support Hamas? Don't we have the right to attack or bomb them? In this case, we can distinctly distinguish from the innocent to the guilty.
HERE IS THE QUESTION - Does Israel have the right to blow up an Hamas operative in Gaza or another country, if they are only a spokesman and never carried out a mission to harm. Can you make the same claim " they’re not actually putting that wish into practice"? The answer is - any support to an ACTIVE terrorist organization engaged in the middle of murdering Jews - is the same as the others doing the killing.
If the goal of the war was to "Eradicate Hamas" down to the very last man, (not what they thought) but for what they did or are doing. Then any supporter is fair game even if they never hurt anyone. In this case if they take to the streets showing public support, Israel might have the right to unleash weapons' on them. This will also be making sure there is no open recruitment of new members, and stop their open support by the people emboldening Hamas further.
Am I wrong ???
P.S. It is not like a neo-Nazi today, as there is free speech and he is not supporting or enabling an ACTIVE terrorist group.
Parents who love their children would very rationally support any effective means to prevent the burning and decapitation of their offspring. So it is extremely reasonable and sensible that Israeli parents support the liquidation of Gaza.
Palestinian culture at present is rigid and inflexible regarding their position on living side by side with a Jewish state. This mindset has been taught to generations of Palestinian children by institutions such as UNWRA.
I have listened to many lectures by Einat Wilf, and she says that "Palestinianism" is the root of the conflict: the absolute obsession of the Palestinians in trying to deny the Jews the possibility of creating a Jewish state.
She doesn't think a direct approach to achieving peace with the Palestinians is possible (by negotiating or land concessions). She hopes that furtherance of the Abraham Accords to include other more moderate Arab countries will eventually convince the Palestinians that it's better to come to terms with Israel's existence.
That's part of it. But in 2021, when Hamas incited riots on the Temple Mount during Ramadan/Nisan, Arabs in the Israeli cities rioted as well. In Lod, I think around 18 synagogues were firebombed. And it was all over only perceived changes in the status quo on the Temple Mount. Israel certainly never had any plans to destroy the Al Aqsa Mosque. But it's very easy for Hamas to stir the pot by spreading such rumors.
Also, judging by the stance of the Arab parties in the Knesset, they don't seem very loyal to Israel--especially when there is open conflict with the Palestinians. Surveys indicate that 70% of Israelis are now opposed to a Palestinian state. Who are the remaining 30%, who are still in favor of a Palestinian state? Israeli Arabs, and the Israeli far-left, like people who subscribe to Ha'aretz.
We're fortunate that there weren't such riots by Arabs in Israeli cities after October 7th. Perhaps it was because the Arab Israelis saw that Hamas murdered Bedouins and even West Bank Palestinians as well on October 7th.
They are Palestinian Israelis. There are also many Palestinian Jordanians. There are no Palestinian Syrians or Palestinian Lebanese because they are denied citizenship there for eternity, just as Black people were in the US prior to 1868.
"In this post, I’m going to say something that might appear to contradict all that."
Don't worry, it doesn't! ("A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds", and all that.) I fully agree with the post.
It's worth noting that even people like Kinneret Barashi still far more moral Hamas or even your typical Gazan. She holds this attitude *in response* to having her people arbitrarily slaughtered pillaged, and raped. The current hate-soaked culture in Gaza at least makes me comprehend the (rare) commands in the Chumash to "wipe out every male in so-and-so" village.
Secret Hamas docs reveal torture, execution of gay terrorists — while some male Oct. 7 Israeli victims were raped in captivity
By Caitlin Doornbos
Published Feb. 4, 2025, 4:56 p.m. ET
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Hamas tortured and executed terrorists within its ranks who allegedly had gay sex, shocking documents show — as sources added some male Israeli victims of the Oct. 7 massacre were raped in captivity.
The Iranian proxy terror group had a running list of recruits who were found to have failed Hamas’ “morality checks” by having same-sex relations — and they paid a heavy price, according to documents recovered by the Israel Defense Forces and shared with The Post.
The documents reveal the “crimes” that were allegedly committed by 94 Hamas recruits — lumping “homosexual conversations,” “flirting with girls without a legal relationship” and “sodomy” in with serious allegations of child rape and torture.
Hamas fighters arriving in a pickup truck at Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza City for the handover of hostage Agam Beger to the Red Cross, dated Jan. 30, 2025.
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Hamas fighters gather for a hostage handover in Gaza City on Jan. 30.
AP
The allegations, dated between 2012 and 2019, involve recruits to Hamas’ intelligence, military and interior ministry and say the new members were eventually deemed “unacceptable” to continue working with the terror group because of their actions.
“He constantly curses God,” according to one allegation, which added, “Information was received that he sexually harassed a young child.“
An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Brotherhood in North America
by Mohamed Akram
May 19, 1991
View the full document
Summary:
This May 1991 memo was written by Mohamed Akram, a.k.a. Mohamed Adlouni, for the Shura Council of the Muslim Brotherhood. In the introductory letter, Akram referenced a "long-term plan…approved and adopted" by the Shura Council in 1987 and proposed this memo as a supplement to that plan and requested that the memo be added to the agenda for an upcoming Council meeting. Appended to the document is a list of all Muslim Brotherhood organizations in North America as of 1991.
Notable quotes:
Enablement of Islam in North America, meaning: establishing an effective and stable Islamic Movement led by the Muslim Brotherhood which adopts Muslims' causes domestically and globally, and which works to expand the observant Muslim base, aims at unifying and directing Muslims' efforts, presents Islam as a civilization alternative, and supports the global Islamic state, wherever it is.
In order for Islam and its Movement to become "a part of the homeland" in which it lives, "stable" in its land, "rooted" in the spirits and minds of its people, "enabled" in the live [sic] of its society and has firmly-established "organizations" on which the Islamic structure is built and with which the testimony of civilization is achieved, the Movement must plan and struggle to obtain "the keys" and the tools of this process in carry [sic] out this grand mission as a "Civilization Jihadist" responsibility which lies on the shoulders of Muslims and – on top of them – the Muslim Brotherhood in this country.
The process of settlement is a "Civilization-Jihadist Proecess" with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who chose to slack. But, would the slackers and the Mujahedeen be equal.
I agree that wholesale slaughter of Gazans would be wrong, but on much narrower grounds: because what would be morally permissible is the least amount of killing necessary to insure the safety of Jews, and as of yet we don't know what that is. What has been done so far clearly has failed, but there are numerous steps that might be taken short of total slaughter that could be implemented: larger empty buffer zones; no entry into Israel under any circumstances; keeping the hostile population disarmed; outlawing genocidal education of young Palestinians; not deliberately targeting civilians but taking no extraordinary measures to spare them either, thus adhering to international law in a more minimal way and sparing soldiers; killing terrorists immediately; and many more. (There is of course the question respecting what Israel could get away with without endangering its relationships and trade, but that's a separate discussion; and in any case, any of these would be more palatable than wholesale slaughter.) But for those who would reject total killing under any circumstances, I have to ask: how many Jews are you willing to see butchered, raped, mutilated, burnt alive to support your vision?
And how much “collateral damage” are you willing to accept for your security goals…??
An extra 100,000? 200,000? More? You talk casually about slaughter. As if it’s cattle. If you talk slaughter then don’t be suprised when people talk slaughter and substitute us. The very act of killing shreds souls. Defensive warfare can be morally justified. But your taste for blood is sickening Jerry.
That's a truly foolish comment, being that my views are designed to drastically reduce the risks of being in the front lines, whether that's the front lines of the military or those who live near the border. I should be asking you why you are so willing to expend Jewish lives, in the front lines or otherwise. Thus far you've contributed little of substance, just emotional outbursts we could find anywhere on the internet with little effort. It might be beneficial for you if you learned to construct an argument and behave like an adult.
Not a taste for blood, just concern for the lives of Jews. I notice you didn't answer my concluding question, so for convenience I'll repeat it: How many Jews are you willing to see butchered, raped, mutilated, burnt alive to support your vision? See if you can discuss these matters without hysteria.
He can't answer. He does not truly understand, or more likely is afraid to acknowledge the enemies Israel and the Jews are facing. Hamas and their supporters need to surrender or face utter annihilation.
Unfortunately some people remain stuck in their teenage years, when it's all about asserting one's opinions and feelings of righteousness. Some people graduate to seeking out opposing opinions, carefully weighing arguments, subordinating strong emotions to thought, and asking themselves the tough questions even before someone else does; some people do not.
That the IDF knew of and or had warned him of or that he had heard of or
He's a murderous doctor, an aberration amongst Jews
Ben Gvir has accomplished more than any other in his position in getting guns and ammunition into the hands of Jews. If he was a tel Aviv tranny getting that done I'd be down with it, the beauty of Israel is the pluralistic coming together on occasion and getting things done.
Smotrich is also deemed a extreme right wing extremist by those who label reality based observant Jews and he was able to thwart and stymie the banking threats Biden imposed and could have brought down the Palestinian authority as a good first step as they have abrogated every bit of the Oslo accords.
A column in Yisrael HaYom recently pointed out that, like him or not, Ben Gvir turned out to be right on a bunch of things. Families of released Palestinian prisoners have started to complain how spartan (not inhuman) their imprisonment had become lately. Jews are openly praying on the Temple Mount and the world has not exploded. Etc.
But those policies don't define him as an extremist. They're rather mainstream right-wing views. That and his liberal gun policy wouldn't be out of place in American conservative circles.
The true test would be whether he would force new elections if Bibi prematurely ends the war with Hamas still a threat.
—US Secretary of Defense, Casper Weinberger—the kind of State Dept. Jew who’s no friend of Israel or the Jewish people (& not just because of Pollard’s case)—interceded in Pollard‘s case, in a truly irregular breach of protocol, basically to assure that he would be sentenced with extreme harshness.
By any reasonable yardstick, Pollard’s sentence was wildly out of proportion to several other, not just comparable but objectively worse cases of espionage—a couple of them right around the same time, and which led directly to the deaths of American agents—something which, despite the relentless lying & distortion of history from the Lefty, was not remotely the case with Pollard.
The whole Pollard affair was suspicious, dishonorable & inarguably antisemitic.
Yes, he committed espionage. But it is disingenuous for people to pretend there aren’t different shadings of that crime… when we all accept that there are, legally & morally, different ‘degrees’ of killing someone.
"comparable but objectively worse cases of espionage—a couple of them right around the same time"
The Walker brothers died after 29 years in prison. Jerry Whitworth is currently serving a 365 year prison sentence. Hanssen and Ames are serving life without parole. And as I noted, the Rosenbergs were executed. Pollard got off easy.
It was POLLARD and his then wife who broke the plea deal by going to the media. Judges don't like it when convicted felons break plea deals.
The Rosenbergs were executed for espionage. They were also spying for an ally.
Your defense of the indefensible is one justificstion for anti-Semitism in the US. The dual loyalty canard keeps popping up again and again, including from Donald Trump. Julius Rosenberg was a traitor and so was Jonathan Pollard.
He had nothing on your church boy Robert Hanson who spied for opus they and was known for 20 years by clergy and bitches in the FBI and Bill Barr in the department of Justice who still is a Jesuit opus de motherfucker plant today
Pollard rescued information that was being withheld with malevolent intent by cunts within the state department
He who blessed our forefathers, Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov, Yosef, Moshe and Aharon, David and Shlomo, may He bless, watch, and guard our brothers who are in captivity. On account of the congregation's praying for them, may the Holy One, Blessed is He grant mercy upon them, protect them from all trouble and sorrow, injury and illness, and send blessing and success in all they do, take them out from darkness and gloom, and speedily return them to the comfort of their families. And let us say: Amen.
Liar. Pollard caused massive harm to American Jews. Every Jew became suspected of dual loyalty. Even Donald Trump spouts such memes. I was working for a defense contractor with a security clearance when Pollard got busted and saw the sequelae. Israel had no defense agreement with the US at the time and had no right to any intelligence information from the US.
Charles Hall: Apparently it is okay to minimize the genocide of others if you are are Jewish.
And you wonder why there is anti-Semitism.>>>
That statement is antisemitic, full stop.
You're clearly in no position to determine which Jew caused massive harm to the rest of us.
People like you cause massive harm to Jews wherever your toxic comments & views get exposure. Any Jew who disagrees with your inane Lefty positions, you try to portray as (weirdly) a Holocaust denier, a racist, and apparently, the reason there is anti-Semitism in the world.
That makes you essentially a hater of Jews—as bad as any other rabid antisemite. You like SOME Jews—the ones who share your incoherent Lefty views. Not good enough.
He who blessed our forefathers, Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov, Yosef, Moshe and Aharon, David and Shlomo, may He bless, watch, and guard our brothers who are in captivity. On account of the congregation's praying for them, may the Holy One, Blessed is He grant mercy upon them, protect them from all trouble and sorrow, injury and illness, and send blessing and success in all they do, take them out from darkness and gloom, and speedily return them to the comfort of their families. And let us say: Amen.
Pollard didn't "rescue" anything. He tried to sell information to other countries, too. Israel was not entitled to the information he sold. No country, not even NATO allies, is "entitled" to such.
Hanssen is serving life without parole. Pollard is living free. Pollard got off easy.
An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Brotherhood in North America
by Mohamed Akram
May 19, 1991
View the full document
Summary:
This May 1991 memo was written by Mohamed Akram, a.k.a. Mohamed Adlouni, for the Shura Council of the Muslim Brotherhood. In the introductory letter, Akram referenced a "long-term plan…approved and adopted" by the Shura Council in 1987 and proposed this memo as a supplement to that plan and requested that the memo be added to the agenda for an upcoming Council meeting. Appended to the document is a list of all Muslim Brotherhood organizations in North America as of 1991.
Notable quotes:
Enablement of Islam in North America, meaning: establishing an effective and stable Islamic Movement led by the Muslim Brotherhood which adopts Muslims' causes domestically and globally, and which works to expand the observant Muslim base, aims at unifying and directing Muslims' efforts, presents Islam as a civilization alternative, and supports the global Islamic state, wherever it is.
In order for Islam and its Movement to become "a part of the homeland" in which it lives, "stable" in its land, "rooted" in the spirits and minds of its people, "enabled" in the live [sic] of its society and has firmly-established "organizations" on which the Islamic structure is built and with which the testimony of civilization is achieved, the Movement must plan and struggle to obtain "the keys" and the tools of this process in carry [sic] out this grand mission as a "Civilization Jihadist" responsibility which lies on the shoulders of Muslims and – on top of them – the Muslim Brotherhood in this country.
The process of settlement is a "Civilization-Jihadist Proecess" with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who chose to slack. But, would the slackers and the Mujahedeen be equal.
When did that happen and why not? Wars are supposed to be fought to win, get it done quickly that's why it's called war dragging it out stupidly is not halaka.
In 1936 (the British Mandate for Palestine lasted from 1920 to 1948) it was the Jews that called enthusiastically adopted the name Palestinian. They named their institutions, like banks and orchestras and newspapers, Palestinian. The Arabs were enraged by this. They complained to the Peel Commission of 1936 that the name Palestine was an offensively Jewish name! Specifically their spokesman said that "Palestine is alien to the Arabs."
Three decades later they became the Ancient Palestinian People. What rubbish!
Secret Hamas docs reveal torture, execution of gay terrorists — while some male Oct. 7 Israeli victims were raped in captivity
By Caitlin Doornbos
Published Feb. 4, 2025, 4:56 p.m. ET
882
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Hamas tortured and executed terrorists within its ranks who allegedly had gay sex, shocking documents show — as sources added some male Israeli victims of the Oct. 7 massacre were raped in captivity.
The Iranian proxy terror group had a running list of recruits who were found to have failed Hamas’ “morality checks” by having same-sex relations — and they paid a heavy price, according to documents recovered by the Israel Defense Forces and shared with The Post.
The documents reveal the “crimes” that were allegedly committed by 94 Hamas recruits — lumping “homosexual conversations,” “flirting with girls without a legal relationship” and “sodomy” in with serious allegations of child rape and torture.
Hamas fighters arriving in a pickup truck at Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza City for the handover of hostage Agam Beger to the Red Cross, dated Jan. 30, 2025.
3
Hamas fighters gather for a hostage handover in Gaza City on Jan. 30.
AP
The allegations, dated between 2012 and 2019, involve recruits to Hamas’ intelligence, military and interior ministry and say the new members were eventually deemed “unacceptable” to continue working with the terror group because of their actions.
“He constantly curses God,” according to one allegation, which added, “Information was received that he sexually harassed a young child.“
Shut up with your equivocations no one wants to do this to them on the Jewish side
See, that right there, that is precisely where Lefties [& fellow travelers] always go completely off the rails, morally: because a Jew in 2025 merely SAYING something about Palestinian terrorists that is provocative, perhaps even deeply offensive, but clearly meant to make a point… is NOT "as bad as" people who commit rape, torture, infanticide & mass murder.
How morally twisted, high on your own virtue-signaling and/or just plain stupid do you have to be to make that equivalency?
I know: you, too, are just talking passionately. But for someone so exquisitely judgmental of other people's speech, you might've chosen your words more carefully, and just pointed out why you think the other guy's position is wrong.
The number of people in Israel who are "as bad as they are"—who would run exultantly alongside a truck with a raped/beaten/murdered girl sprawled, broken, in the back, and not be disturbed if not horrified—is statistically nonexistent.
But there is an entire society of people like that in Gaza.
The sort of sick moral equivalency that you tried to pass here serves your own misguided self-righteousness, not any higher moral principle.
Facts are facts. Defend yourself against the barbaric savages by whatever means necessary. I do not value the life of Nazis one iota, and most Palestinians are Nazis. If that makes me racist,so be it
Whoa. Relax. You say this to a fellow Jew? Lama Sakeh Rayecha? Do you not know what the Gazans believe about Paradise and Martyrdom? I am not saying I disagree but first understand his point.
In 1936 (the British Mandate for Palestine lasted from 1920 to 1948) it was the Jews that called enthusiastically adopted the name Palestinian. They named their institutions, like banks and orchestras and newspapers, Palestinian. The Arabs were enraged by this. They complained to the Peel Commission of 1936 that the name Palestine was an offensively Jewish name! Specifically their spokesman said that "Palestine is alien to the Arabs."
Three decades later they became the Ancient Palestinian People. What rubbish!
<<< Apparently it is okay to minimize the genocide of others if you are are Jewish. >>>
That statement is antisemitic, full stop.
Whatever point you thought you're making—about someone who's Jewish being insensitive to other people's suffering (and I'm articulating it far more fairly & articulately than you did)—is completely overshadowed by the way you chose to formulate it. You're no friend of Israel, any more than you're a sincere advocate of justice, humane principles, morality or fairness.
He has zero content on his channel but has facts in comments occasionally yet wraps other things that contain morsels of Truth in the context of a curveball slur with misrepresentations on the side, curious enigma indeed
Oh, it sure will happen again. That's why the whole war was an absolute waste, and useless massacre. Hamas cannot be military destroyed, and if it even were, that would only bring worse. Hate begets hate, and violence begets violence.
And trying to forcefully deport them? That's the best recipe for disaster.
In 1936 (the British Mandate for Palestine lasted from 1920 to 1948) it was the Jews that called enthusiastically adopted the name Palestinian. They named their institutions, like banks and orchestras and newspapers, Palestinian. The Arabs were enraged by this. They complained to the Peel Commission of 1936 that the name Palestine was an offensively Jewish name! Specifically their spokesman said that "Palestine is alien to the Arabs."
Three decades later they became the Ancient Palestinian People. What rubbish!
There is no realistic plan for a “secure Israel” in the natural order of things.
From the perspective of realpolitik, it was necessary for Israel to retaliate against Hamas b/c if they hadn’t, it would look like Hamas “won”, Israel would look weak in the eyes of the world, and the public outcry (in Israel) would have been intolerable.
But anyone who actually believed that this “war” would eliminate Hamas was deluding himself from the start, especially since there was apparently never any thought given to who would be responsible for Gaza once Hamas was “gone”.
This will undoubtedly sound very frummie and cliche, but the only solution to the present Israeli-“Palestinian” quagmire is Mashiach.
All the violence springs from the maniacal genocidal Hamas and their supporters. They intend to destroy Israel and the Jews in it. It is what they live for and die for.
Already been tried, numerous times, horrific results.
“Breaking the cycle of violence“—yes, you updated it to a spiral—is a prime example of the kind of Lefty buzz-phrase that was mindless even years ago, but is today totally discredited.
That’s a ridiculous statement. Poverty & cancer & baldness & divorce are also “being done again and again”—like war, they are undesirable things that are unlikely to ever be totally eradicated. This is real life, not Star Trek.
As with those things, we nevertheless keep fighting and making progress.
But the Left has never contributed to that progress in a positive way—not to the Middle East situation, or to world peace in general. It has only ever hindered meaningful progress with its inane, hypocritical, phony-humanitarian nonsense.
Except Agag was king of the *actual* Amalekites whom Sha’ul had been explicitly commanded by an *actual* navi to wipe out according to Hashem’s direct instruction.
We have neither actual Amalekites nor actual nevi’im, so any supposed parallel btwn that circumstance and ours is moot.
So you're ruling that EVERY SINGLE Palestinian authority is an actual halachic Amalekite, to be halachically dealt with accordingly? You don't think that's a little presumptuous?
Vast majority of Palestinians are barbaric savages and vow to destroy Israel. If given a chance they would Holocaust the Jews in Israel and probably Jews worldwide. They are Nazis and deserve annihilation.
Just calling something “racist” is not an argument—even if Lefties persist in thinking it is…
…just as they cling to all the rest of their pernicious nonsense, even after the events on Oct. 7 should’ve clued them in to the fact that they’re utterly, disastrously wrong about everything.
Sub stack is full of lunatics and you with the generic name that's possibly real is telling someone with the potentially specific name to put their real name out there so that their life and kids can be exposed by lunatics fuck off with your bullshit
,R’ Slifkin, I agree that such thinking is wrong—but I very much disagree with your apparent feeling that it’s a major problem that warranted equal column space to what you so eloquently said last week, about Jews foolishly misjudging other Jews over the issue of population transfer.
That essay was spot-on, and it sorely needed saying. And now, this—it reminds me of the way certain people can never condemn antisemitism without mentioning Islamophobia.
The tiny minority of Israelis who might actually kill a random, presumably innocent Palestinian is not remotely comparable or proportionate to the overwhelming majority of Palestinians who we have actually seen supporting such behavior, for decades.
Even those Israelis who shout approval at harsh statements about killing or expelling Palestinians are only doing what they are doing: venting harsh feelings; there is extremely little historical basis to suggest that most of these Israeli Jews would actually act on those statements.
Fetishizing Baruch Goldstein as the exemplar of this alleged sector of the Israeli public —as you have done here, and as every Jew to the left of Netanyahu has done for decades— is dishonest in precisely the way you so effectively described certain Jewish moral scolds in your previous essay: Goldstein did what he did, there was no excusing it. But it would be intellectually dishonest to claim he would have advocated for, or effectuated the mass murder of every single Palestinian.
Every day, every Jew is subjected to a torrent of media, public opinion, and statements from govts. around the world, saying that WE are committing genocide, while also ignoring the mass rape & slaughter of Jews.
In that context, an anguished Jew who murdered random Arabs [who, statistically, were likely pro-terrorism] is indeed a murderer—but he is also someone reacting to a hypocritical world, that, still to this day, offers little hope of real justice to Jews.
The Palestinians, for all their alleged suffering, have been treated with far more humanity by the IDF than they encounter from any Hamas thug. And still, they all advocate for the murder of random Israelis!
So, NOT the same.
Let’s not get bogged down in offensive equivalencies & comparisons… not even to Baruch Goldstein.
"All this is completely different from the sort of forced population transfer proposed by Trump"
The fact that Ben-Gvir and friends want to kill Palestinians does NOT make a forced population transfer a moderate position. It is still an an immoral and useless suggestion that hopefully will drop out from the discourse. Israelis are not immoral for being tempted by it given the horrors of Oct 7, but actually executing it would be a great crime. Israel's existence is not in any way threatened by Gaza and eliminating the Gaza threat would not in any way be removing Israel's greater threats which come from Iran through Hezbollah and also the possibility of Islamist regimes taking hold in Egypt and Jordan.
Israel's existence is not threatened by a Hamas-run Gaza. The inhumane things that they were able to "accomplish" was a combination of Israel allowing Qatar to funnel large amounts of money to Hamas, Hamas building up over years, and Israel higher ups in intelligence failing to listen to reports that Hamas was openly practicing an invasion. The result was a horrible and intolerable massacre that did not in any way threaten the existence of Israel as a state and could not be repeated. I also think that a Hamas-run Gaza is intolerable, but Netanyahu has done everything in his power to keep Hamas as the only viable alternative for Gaza since he has consistently put the kibosh on any discussion of who else would run a post-war Gaza. Hezbollah partly running Lebanon is still a much, much greater threat. So of course would be losing the detente with Egypt, Jordan and other Arab states.
David, you are deeply mistaken in saying that Israel is not threatened by a Hamas-run Gaza. It is threatened in so many ways. First there is the obvious risk of cross-border breaches. Then there is the risk from rockets. Then there is the sheer fact of Hamas surviving as the ruling authority, which is not only psychologically devastating for Israel, but also emboldens Israel's enemies.
Sorry , I didn't see this before. I didn't say there is no threat. I said there is no existential threat which might justify breaking both international law and the laws of basic humanity (as such a threat existed in 1948). Moreover, the threat from Hamas in Gaza is much less than the threat for Hezbollah, the new Syrian regime if they go full Islamist and Egypt and Jordan if the monarchy and military dictatorship are eventually toppled and replaced with even a democratic regime (which would be the best case scenario). And it already happened once in Egypt. And of course Iran. I don't think that leaving Hamas in power in Gaza is a reasonable option but the Israeli right is making that option the only one by refusing to even start to discuss who else might take charge, since they wan the Gaza war to go on indefinitely. The threats you mention are ones that lots of countries face with enemies on their borders and not addressed by population transfers.
Israeli children are threatened by the proximity of the Arabs. So very naturally, Israeli parents who love their children opt for the liquidation of the Gazan biomass.
Could you rephrase your question? I don’t know what you are getting at. But yes Israel does check passports and identity cards for entry to Israel and the 2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel are allowed reentry.
It's not useless. It's just lacking practical details. The population has already been displaced within Gaza. 281 million people around the world migrate yearly. It's not like it hasn't been done before.
" Israel's existence is not in any way threatened by Gaza"
Don't be so callous. It's enough that the goons on this blog go on how it's not a מלחמת מצוה. We don't need (or expect) such nonsense coming from you.
" and eliminating the Gaza threat would not in any way be removing Israel's greater threats"
And global warming is more threatening that eliminating exotic pronouns. But I don't see the leftists lose the ability to multi-task.
But here's the thing. Transfer will happen, whether by an organized program for volunteer emigration or desperate chaos like the Vietnam boat people. The alternative to transfer is a miserable existence among the rubble. Who is going to fund the reconstruction if there's no guarantee of enduring peace, and no ensuring that Hamas and other criminal outfits won't embezzle the funding?
This was a throwaway line from you, but I have to respond to one thing. Trans people exist. Non-binary people exist. Gay people exist. Please treat others with respect and dignity. Even if are against trans women in women's sports, don't lose your morality and your humanity because of a culture war.
In 1936 (the British Mandate for Palestine lasted from 1920 to 1948) it was the Jews that called enthusiastically adopted the name Palestinian. They named their institutions, like banks and orchestras and newspapers, Palestinian. The Arabs were enraged by this. They complained to the Peel Commission of 1936 that the name Palestine was an offensively Jewish name! Specifically their spokesman said that "Palestine is alien to the Arabs."
Three decades later they became the Ancient Palestinian People. What rubbish!
"How is it immoral?". Kind of useless to try to answer if you imagine otherwise. But I know that most Israelis do consider it immoral. That is why the Israel foundation myth explains (or used to explain) that Palestinians who lost their homes in 1948 all did so voluntarily. It was not pleasant to acknowledge the reality that Palestinian civilians were expelled from their villages in 1948. We can understand that the war of independence was an existential war for both Israel and the Jews that justified extreme and emergency actions to prevent an even worse moral calamity. That is not the case here.
"It's not useless."
It's a useless discussion because Israel will no do it and other countries won't cooperate. It's useless practically because it doesn't protect against any real threat but increase all the other more important threats to Israel all around. Egypt being run again by Islamists being just one.
"Don't be so callous. It's enough that the goons on this blog go on how it's not a מלחמת מצוה." Milchemet Mitzvah is about protecting from all threats, not just existential ones. Hamas as it existed at the time (but now destroyed) put everything into a single surprise attack that Israel could have easily blocked had they taken seriously their open-air practice drills for the attack. Even with all that, there was simply no serious threat to Israel's existence. There was a horrible rape and massacre. The attack that actually happened has already been addressed by wiping out gaza's military capabilities, their leadership and the fact that such a surprise would no longer be a surprise.
"And global warming is more threatening that eliminating exotic pronouns."
Let me explain what I mean. It makes no sense to say that gazans living in gaza is an intolerable threat to Israel which can't be abided and requires expelling all Palestinians from Gaza while simultaneously saying that you can deal with Lebanon without such expulsion. If we are handling the bigger Hezbollah threat in the usual way, we can handle the much, much smaller threat from Gaza as well.
" It makes no sense to say that gazans living in gaza is an intolerable threat to Israel which can't be abided and requires expelling all Palestinians from Gaza while simultaneously saying that you can deal with Lebanon without such expulsion. "
It might not be geometrically consistent, but it makes sense.
"How is it immoral?". Kind of useless to try to answer if you imagine otherwise..."
...and you haven't answered the question. Nor understood. How is voluntary migration from a hellhole and a site of legitimate military action immoral? How is forceful transfer of terrorists immoral? And how are such actions against international law?
Forced migration is not always immoral. It would not be immoral to encourage volunteer migration. Most Palestinians are Nazis, so a forced migration is not immoral either. But even if most are not Nazis, it is moral to give them a better life and stop with their forever war against Israel.
You can go on blathering all night about what is going to happen and whatever you say isn't going to change what is necessary, cry harder seethe more or maybe go to a local clinic and help the men who were raped by Hamas
Secret Hamas docs reveal torture, execution of gay terrorists — while some male Oct. 7 Israeli victims were raped in captivity
By Caitlin Doornbos
Published Feb. 4, 2025, 4:56 p.m. ET
882
Sorry, the video player failed to load.
(Error Code: 100013)
Hamas tortured and executed terrorists within its ranks who allegedly had gay sex, shocking documents show — as sources added some male Israeli victims of the Oct. 7 massacre were raped in captivity.
The Iranian proxy terror group had a running list of recruits who were found to have failed Hamas’ “morality checks” by having same-sex relations — and they paid a heavy price, according to documents recovered by the Israel Defense Forces and shared with The Post.
The documents reveal the “crimes” that were allegedly committed by 94 Hamas recruits — lumping “homosexual conversations,” “flirting with girls without a legal relationship” and “sodomy” in with serious allegations of child rape and torture.
Hamas fighters arriving in a pickup truck at Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza City for the handover of hostage Agam Beger to the Red Cross, dated Jan. 30, 2025.
3
Hamas fighters gather for a hostage handover in Gaza City on Jan. 30.
AP
The allegations, dated between 2012 and 2019, involve recruits to Hamas’ intelligence, military and interior ministry and say the new members were eventually deemed “unacceptable” to continue working with the terror group because of their actions.
“He constantly curses God,” according to one allegation, which added, “Information was received that he sexually harassed a young child.“
Neighboring Arabs said to get out to their Arab brethren so the Arab brethren got out and the Arabs started a war and lost and here you are supposedly Jewish crying about it, they will leave its best they must go 57 Islamic Nations 22 Arab Nations and none of them get along amongst themselves much less with Jews
30 + 1,000 killed in Jordan in 1970 by a fellow Muslim 50,000 killed in Syria at the Hama massacres by assad
And your hyperventilating like a spaz when the gift gets handed to take them away
In 1936 (the British Mandate for Palestine lasted from 1920 to 1948) it was the Jews that called enthusiastically adopted the name Palestinian. They named their institutions, like banks and orchestras and newspapers, Palestinian. The Arabs were enraged by this. They complained to the Peel Commission of 1936 that the name Palestine was an offensively Jewish name! Specifically their spokesman said that "Palestine is alien to the Arabs."
Three decades later they became the Ancient Palestinian People. What rubbish!
"national identity was a very different phenomenon in Biblical times than it is today"
Ah, the siren song of the comfortable Westerner. "We'll give them work permits in Israel and they will never attack us, because the world has moved past such things."
Billions of human beings have not, in fact, moved past these things, and among them are the people of Gaza.
It was a very different phenomenon in the Middle East until about 150 years ago. The concept of a Nation State simply didn't exist. And yes, it was Westerners who imposed it on the Middle East. Jews of course had longed for a Nation State for over 2,000 years prior to 1948 CE.
Oh, boo-hoo. So they just HAVE to act like bloodthirsty animals then, right? Somehow the rest of humanity has figured it out. It's remarkable how much Left-wing political Kool-Aid you've drunk . . . Edward Said would be proud of you.
Your comment has nothing to do with my comment.
You failed to address his point.
I think this piece is wrongly weighted, gives an incorrect impression. I do not think that other than a crazy miniscule fraction wishes to actually kill anyone- but that a large number of people, myself perhaps included, sees as moral, the complete destruction of the Hamas regime and structure, as well as justify the large deportation of Gazan population elsewhere, as: its impossible to live there- i.e. for their own benefit and for Israel's legitimate security. Their political identification with the Hamas means that they need be further away. Similarly if Arabs in Jerusalem or Judea/ Samaria support movements intended to uproot/ destroy Israel, they too need suffer the same fate. Only Arabs who accept fully Israel state legitimacy can be accepted and have full, personal rights. That's the outlook many would share here. It's 100% moral and one doesn't need focus on extremists to decry their wild views, shared by hardly anyone. This I feel your whole piece was just a bit 'off'.. lacking a proper grasp..
I've been struggling with the weighting for a while. Unfortunately I don't think that it's as crazy minuscule a fraction as you think.
Have a debate with Feiglin, let's see a confrontation of ideas and who has a better argument :)
add Yishai Fleischer to the panel.
Uh oh, are you a Wokestein? Repent!
https://www.thehebrewconservative.com/2023/10/15/the-golem-rises-again-against-its-creators/
Were Dresden and Hiroshima wrong?
This is not the same.
The babies killed in Hiroshima wouldn't agree.
Wikipedia says: "According to military scholar Sarah Paine, the bombings likely saved millions of lives, as a quick end to the war enabled the resumption of food shipping which prevented further famine." I'll go with that.
William T. Sherman is often quoted in his "War is Hell" remarks as saying that war needs to be as cruel as possible in order that it can end as early as possible. His devastation of Georgia and South Carolina shortened the American Civil War by at least a year, maybe more. It also freed a lot of enslaved people a year or more earlier.
Today Sherman would be considered a war criminal. I think he should be considered a hero.
He was also an enthusiastic and public anti semite…..
Yep, the bombings were likely the only solution for Japan. This is not the same.
I recall reading that the Japanese were about to surrender even before Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
How to choose arguments based on what you want to believe. Congratulations!
It's the same for the babies. Doesn't mean it's the same.
A far greater proportion of “regular“ Japanese probably had no particular hate or desire to kill Americans, than among Palestinians—where only the very young children are not yet poisoned by the antisemitic hate indoctrination.
They were more interested in persecuting Koreans and massacring Chinese. The Japanese killed multiples more Chinese than the Nazis killed Jews.
That question is stupid. Wrong for what standards, and compared to what?
Hiroshima would be illegal today, and that's a good thing, unless you fancy nuclear armageddon. And carpet bombing civilian areas should be too.
"Would be illegal today" under what standards?
Dura Lex Sed Lex
You know who also said that? The Nazis that who carried out the Final Solution. The law is the law you know.
Slavery was the law once a upon a time, do you mean it was the moral thing to do?
What are YOU defending, again?
However look how Japan turned its culture and politics 180 degrees!
Japan had a complex, nuanced culture. It might have for a time tilted into suicidal nationalism & warmaking, but overall it almost miraculously enabled them to move on, when they might understandably have remained mired in hate towards America.
There could not be a greater contrast than with the Palestinians, who, to the extent that they have any culture at all, it is largely reflective of wider Arab/Islamist culture, which evinces a stubborn refusal to give up on age-old grievances, grudges, and offenses to their supposed hojor.
Before that Japan had a culture. Palestinians don't have a culture.
Palestinian identity only dates to late Ottoman times. But Japanese identity really changed after 1854 when the United States forced it to interact with the world for the first time in centuries. Unfortunately, it interacted very badly very quickly and continued to do so for almost a century.
Non-sequitur.
So you mean it was a moral decision?
I think we can say that annihilating a civilian population for a political end is in fact wrong. If that's not wrong, then, really, nothing is wrong. If the end justifies the means, then rational objections to terrorism become impossible.
Not when they continue to terrorize others, cause destruction rather than construction. However we all know evil subhumans will continue to rise out of ashes… like skinheads and neo nazis … 💔
You know who talks about "subhumans"? nazis.
You know who else? People describing those who have through consistent, repeated behavior, forfeited any semblance of normal humanity—gleefully celebrating while terrorist savages—i.e. their sons & husbands & friends—drive around among them parading a girl's dead/broken/abused body in the back of their jeep (or have you forgotten those images?).
…People who repeatedly reject peace & the hope of a better life for their children, preferring delusional dreams of jihad & conquest—and who act on those delusions, ramming their cars into young children, hacking random people to death, blowing up whole families eating dinner together…
If ever a group of people showed consistent support for a certain set of principles, it's the Palestinians, who have never once meaningfully condemned a terrorist atrocity perpetrated against Jews.
Such people are behaving in a way that is subhuman. And all the hypocritical pearl-clutching about People Who Use Mean Expressions does not change those hard facts.
You're right that the Palestinians have developed and sustained a toxic culture of death and Jew-hatred. It's very difficult, if not impossible, to sympathize with such people. They appear to be beyond redemption.
I have seen this powerful argument made many times. Yet I have never seen those who make it carry their thinking one step farther to address a crucial obvious question. *Why* are they like that? The Palestinians of 150 years ago certainly weren't.
The answer of course is that *we* made them that way, by the way we have treated them, and continue to treat them.
Does that excuse or justify their many crimes and atrocities? Of course not! But it does *explain* their hatred and recalcitrance, and why they will never just clear out for our convenience and peace of mind.
Hillel taught us not to do to others what is hateful to ourselves. Yet that is *precisely* what we have consistently been doing, not just since 1948, but since Aliyah Harishonah (which included members of both my parents' families — so Zionism is in my bones).
Until we admit that, and change our approach accordingly, there will never be peace between them and us, while the global hatred of Israel and Jews everywhere will continue to grow. Pretending otherwise about either of these points is either messianic fantasy or rank dishonesty.
Trump uses similar language to that of Hitler.
I am pretty jaded at this point, but I'm still just a little surprised at how Orthodox Jewry dismisses any concerns about Trump's dehumanization and scapegoating of minorities. There have been ample opportunities for religious figures to stand up and say "this is wrong," but only silence. It would be one thing if that was because we were afraid of the guy. Then that's just cowardice. But, sadly, I think it's actually because we approve of it. It turns out that we, who have been the scapegoats for centuries, are actually fine with scapegoating, so long as it's not us. The leader of Modern Orthodoxy's flagship educational institution is "honored" to be able to speak at the inauguration of someone who says that immigrants are "poisoning the blood of our country."
Charles Hall: Apparently it is okay to minimize the genocide of others if you are are Jewish. >>>
That statement is antisemitic, full stop.
Whatever point this person thought he's making—about someone who's Jewish being insensitive to other people's suffering (and I'm articulating it far more fairly & articulately than he ever did) is completely overshadowed by the way he chose to formulate it. Charles Hall is no friend of Israel, any more than he's a sincere advocate of justice, humane principles, morality or fairness.
(to be sure, he might be what passes for pro-Israel on the Left…sort of the way I might pass for a black guy—in rural Sweden)
"political end". You can use all the euphemisms you want. I'm not sure if you live in Israel, but this war is a war of extermination. We are not fighting for a "political end", we are fighting for our lives and the future of the Jewish people.
Call me crazy but I'd rather live than live in a Platonian world where I was murdered but I had the "right morality".
I think you must realize that everyone has reasons why things are special for them. "Fighting for our lives and the future of the <whoever>people" is exactly what everyone who has ever committed war crimes has claimed. That's exactly why morality and law have to be exerted. If someone kills my family member, I probably want to kill them, their family, and anyone who ever knew them. Morality and the law that encapsulates that morality say that I cannot.
So you think that the fact they call themselves 'freedom fighters' is actually valid? You do see the difference between us and them right?
Again, nobody wants to kill anyone, the people can leave to other places (not the murderers). God gave the land to the Jews (His decision, nothing I can do about it), and we should take it, first by giving them the option to leave. If they don't want, then they are the ones facing the consequences.
If you make God's will the issue, then everyone has equal claim. Everyone thinks God is on their side, that's almost axiomatic. Everyone believes they have the Master of the Universe in their back pocket. That is religion today. It's sad and pathetic, but that's what it is.
The original question was whether the end justifies the means... If vaporizing 200,000 civilians means we can have peace, is that moral? I said that if you can rationalize that, then you can rationalize anything. There are without a doubt those who have said, "If only we could move the Jews somewhere else, the Middle East would be peaceful and prosperous." On what PRINCIPLE would you declare that view to be wrong, if you advocate exactly the same for the Palestinians?
Well said.
People constantly elide little things like the fact that extremely few Jews in history have ever behaved remotely the way the Palestinians as a group, overwhelmingly, do.
So while one may choose to disagree with a particular “extreme” view of Palestinians, any analogy to what people have said/done about Jews is a dishonest nonstarter.
You just aren't going to forcibly deport millions of people. There is no sense arguing about it.
If Donald Trump wanted to empty out Gaza, he could issue an executive order that anyone from Gaza should be admitted to the United States as an asylum applicant, and another executive order that anyone fearing persecution by Hamas (which would be almost everyone there) should be granted asylum. That would get around the immigration quotas. Most Gazans would accept such an offer! No moral issues for anyone not an Israelhater -- some people will blame Jews for everything, of course.
But given that he wants to expel current asylum applicants from places that have horrible regimes like Venezuela, people who share far more with current Americans in terms of culture, religion, and language, it is unlikely that he will do that. (Yes, language. There are twice as many Spanish speakers in the US as in Venezuela.)
Perhaps not forcibly- but deport, yes. The lack of structures: x percentage of buildings are destroyed necessitates this. I think the majority will willingly go.
That is why if Israel claims there will be NO RE-BUILDING OF GAZA, as we don't want to continue living under continuous attack as we did for the last 15 or so years. It is a valid argument since that is what happened already.
Then everything should fall into place, Give them a choice: live in tents and get on line for your water or food, OR look for a better life. We are not forcing anything on anyone . However, you have the choice of finding a new secure home in other parts of the world (preferable Arab if they want to take you). Leave the choice to them, and you will see almost all take the better route of a good life.
Deport means forcibly.
And they won't willingly go to a place that will never allow them or their descendants to become citizens. You would not either.
There is also the issue that forcing them into Egypt and Jordan will make it much easier for Hamas to stage terrorist attacks against Israel even if the Sisi and Hashemite regimes are not overthrown. And given that Hamas has already staged one coup.....
They will go as it's in their interest. Deport need not be forcefully. They will mostly cooperate as no proper food, services, housing..just rubble..where most lived. You seem to be arguing, politically, for these people. Why, exactly? I wish them a better life and that they be removed from our borders, further away. Good for them, good for us. But you appear to wish further strife and bloodshed.
Deport means forcibly. Please don't try to reinvent the meaning of words the way the far left and far right do.
Moving them to Egypt and Jordan is NOT "further away". That is what Trump is now demanding. Israel would have no peaceful border. You will get further strife and bloodshed. But the Trump Cult will kowtow and Trump will have another resort with his name on it.
I have already suggested that resident visas to Europe or North America with a path to citizenship would be embraced by most Palestinians. Other Arab countries offer no path to citizenship for refugees and the experience of Palestinians in Syria and Lebanon is not something that is attractive.
In any case, only an invasion by the US military would be able to force two million people out and it would be bloody. There would likely be mutinies in the US military because the officers know that they can be charged with war crimes under US law. If anyone dies as a result it is a death penalty offense with no statute of limitations.
You are very persistent - but mah la'asot? I don't agree. Moving them away is good for them and for us- as it may limit the seriousness of future bloodshed. Where exactly? I think it is better (for them) if it were in Arab countries. You seem to be quite oblivious to the fact that much of the building is rubble and living conditions are and will be very bad and primitive. I don't care much for misplaced nationalism in such circumstances, if these people want to kill you and support terrorism. No, they deserve removal and the regime deserves elimination. It can be done in a civilised fashion- and I think a large percentage will comply. So all your scenarios seem off to me- What motive do you have for all this: 'humanitarianism' ? Further continuation of unnecessary strife for millions here? Further hatred? Harms to Israel?
Charles Hall: Apparently it is okay to minimize the genocide of others if you are are Jewish. >>>
That statement is antisemitic, full stop.
Whatever point you thought you're making—about someone who's Jewish being insensitive to other people's suffering (and I'm articulating it far more fairly & articulately than you did) is completely overshadowed by the way you chose to formulate it. You're no friend of Israel, any more than you're a sincere advocate of justice, humane principles, morality or fairness.
I think you are hanging out in different circles. Where I live such views are seen as good old fashioned common-sense. And it's not a small place.
Rzs have ignored the extremist problem in its own camp for too long because it was easier to deny it and point fingers at the haredim.
But see for example today's news...
https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/rkuixw00fje
For sure RZ is divided in groups that have almost nothing in common. That's why is a bad label and should be changed.
Very well said.
Totally disagree.
Torah says very plainly that if they sacrifice their children to Molech they should be destroyed.
You can say what you want but the VAST majority of gazans either joined in October 7 or celebrated it.
Where is the underground resistance to Hamas?
Of course people are afraid of being thrown from a rooftop, but the free French resistance, the polish underground and other brave souls were willing to face unimaginable torture and death to follow their ideals. Where is that group in Gaza?
Children are not innocent's if they have been taught from birth to kill Jews, or anyone else for that matter. There is no difference from being blown up by a child carrying a grenade or an adult. Dead is dead.
The fantasy land that trump et al envision is going to be nothing more than another Monte Carlo in the eastern Mediterranean where filthy rich Arabs from dry, no gambling states can all go play.
After years of arguing with Palestinians and pro-Palestinians on various forums on the Internet, I notice that they have developed a well-oiled machine of witty answers and comebacks to always absolve themselves of any guilt, by employing whataboutisms and "tu quoque" arguments. The only way to "win" such an argument would be if Israel were composed of Gideon Levys and Gershon Baskins.
Argument: "Hamas explicitly says that they want to eradicate Israel".
Rebuttal: "What about Smotrich standing with a map of Greater Israel? What about the settlement expansion in the West Bank? We have Hamas, but you have Ben Gvir and the settlers!"
(They conceal the fact that only a teeny-tiny percent of the Palestinians really want a two-state solution where a Jewish-majority Israel is one of the two states. The vast majority of Palestinians look at a Judenrein Palestinian state in the West Bank as a stage in eradicating Israel anyway. If only 30% of Israelis at present think a Palestinian state is a good idea, that's the result of seeing the jubilation among Palestinians over the October 7th attack.)
Argument: "Look at the Palestinians: every time there is a terror attack that results in Israeli deaths, they hand out sweets, play music, and shoot off fireworks! How is it possible to make peace with such people?"
Rebuttal: "Well, look at these Zionists in the Gaza envelope cheering how the IDF is bombing Gaza!"
(Rabbi Slifkin dealt with this in a previous post, how they always manage to justify their barbarism. Here, they think that showing, "Well, you guys are just as bad" absolves them of guilt.)
Besides the inherent dishonesty of always using the same one or two Israeli names as a supposed counterweight to what the entire Palestinian society is like, it’s also utterly ridiculous what constitutes an “extremist Israeli”— it’s certainly a very, very different bar than being an “extremist Palestinian”.
Whatever cherry-picked examples of “racist” quotations exist from years ago, every statement I have read by Ben Gvir or Smotrich in the last year has been sensible, reasonable, and yes, strongly pro-Israel.
There is zero basis to claim either of these people would just kill random Palestinians in cold blood.
But tthere is tons of very plausible evidence that most Palestinians are perfectly fine with anti-Jewish terrorism.
So am I to understand that there is never justification in wiping out a population because there are always innocents among them. Including a culture such as Gaza- who place tunnels and arms around cribs, use their wives as shields, resources to attack not to build, etc. Does your stance assume that their culture is flexible; can become peace loving, productive, happily coexistent with Israelis?
Nope. But there are alternatives to killing them all!
YOUT STATEMENT "Even if people have an abstract wish to kill all the Jews, that is not justification for killing them, if they’re not actually putting that wish into practice"
I AM OT SURE THAT IS COMPLETLY RIGHT? What about the Palestinian Arabs that go out publicly in the streets and support Hamas? Don't we have the right to attack or bomb them? In this case, we can distinctly distinguish from the innocent to the guilty.
HERE IS THE QUESTION - Does Israel have the right to blow up an Hamas operative in Gaza or another country, if they are only a spokesman and never carried out a mission to harm. Can you make the same claim " they’re not actually putting that wish into practice"? The answer is - any support to an ACTIVE terrorist organization engaged in the middle of murdering Jews - is the same as the others doing the killing.
If the goal of the war was to "Eradicate Hamas" down to the very last man, (not what they thought) but for what they did or are doing. Then any supporter is fair game even if they never hurt anyone. In this case if they take to the streets showing public support, Israel might have the right to unleash weapons' on them. This will also be making sure there is no open recruitment of new members, and stop their open support by the people emboldening Hamas further.
Am I wrong ???
P.S. It is not like a neo-Nazi today, as there is free speech and he is not supporting or enabling an ACTIVE terrorist group.
Parents who love their children would very rationally support any effective means to prevent the burning and decapitation of their offspring. So it is extremely reasonable and sensible that Israeli parents support the liquidation of Gaza.
Palestinian culture at present is rigid and inflexible regarding their position on living side by side with a Jewish state. This mindset has been taught to generations of Palestinian children by institutions such as UNWRA.
I have listened to many lectures by Einat Wilf, and she says that "Palestinianism" is the root of the conflict: the absolute obsession of the Palestinians in trying to deny the Jews the possibility of creating a Jewish state.
She doesn't think a direct approach to achieving peace with the Palestinians is possible (by negotiating or land concessions). She hopes that furtherance of the Abraham Accords to include other more moderate Arab countries will eventually convince the Palestinians that it's better to come to terms with Israel's existence.
There are 2 million Palestinians living in Israel as citizens. How did they overcome this inflexibility?
Because they're not Palestinian. They're Israeli.
That's part of it. But in 2021, when Hamas incited riots on the Temple Mount during Ramadan/Nisan, Arabs in the Israeli cities rioted as well. In Lod, I think around 18 synagogues were firebombed. And it was all over only perceived changes in the status quo on the Temple Mount. Israel certainly never had any plans to destroy the Al Aqsa Mosque. But it's very easy for Hamas to stir the pot by spreading such rumors.
Also, judging by the stance of the Arab parties in the Knesset, they don't seem very loyal to Israel--especially when there is open conflict with the Palestinians. Surveys indicate that 70% of Israelis are now opposed to a Palestinian state. Who are the remaining 30%, who are still in favor of a Palestinian state? Israeli Arabs, and the Israeli far-left, like people who subscribe to Ha'aretz.
We're fortunate that there weren't such riots by Arabs in Israeli cities after October 7th. Perhaps it was because the Arab Israelis saw that Hamas murdered Bedouins and even West Bank Palestinians as well on October 7th.
They are Palestinian Israelis. There are also many Palestinian Jordanians. There are no Palestinian Syrians or Palestinian Lebanese because they are denied citizenship there for eternity, just as Black people were in the US prior to 1868.
"In this post, I’m going to say something that might appear to contradict all that."
Don't worry, it doesn't! ("A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds", and all that.) I fully agree with the post.
It's worth noting that even people like Kinneret Barashi still far more moral Hamas or even your typical Gazan. She holds this attitude *in response* to having her people arbitrarily slaughtered pillaged, and raped. The current hate-soaked culture in Gaza at least makes me comprehend the (rare) commands in the Chumash to "wipe out every male in so-and-so" village.
Secret Hamas docs reveal torture, execution of gay terrorists — while some male Oct. 7 Israeli victims were raped in captivity
By Caitlin Doornbos
Published Feb. 4, 2025, 4:56 p.m. ET
882
Sorry, the video player failed to load.
(Error Code: 100013)
Hamas tortured and executed terrorists within its ranks who allegedly had gay sex, shocking documents show — as sources added some male Israeli victims of the Oct. 7 massacre were raped in captivity.
The Iranian proxy terror group had a running list of recruits who were found to have failed Hamas’ “morality checks” by having same-sex relations — and they paid a heavy price, according to documents recovered by the Israel Defense Forces and shared with The Post.
The documents reveal the “crimes” that were allegedly committed by 94 Hamas recruits — lumping “homosexual conversations,” “flirting with girls without a legal relationship” and “sodomy” in with serious allegations of child rape and torture.
Hamas fighters arriving in a pickup truck at Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza City for the handover of hostage Agam Beger to the Red Cross, dated Jan. 30, 2025.
3
Hamas fighters gather for a hostage handover in Gaza City on Jan. 30.
AP
The allegations, dated between 2012 and 2019, involve recruits to Hamas’ intelligence, military and interior ministry and say the new members were eventually deemed “unacceptable” to continue working with the terror group because of their actions.
“He constantly curses God,” according to one allegation, which added, “Information was received that he sexually harassed a young child.“
As if more evidence was needed to amalek them
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An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Brotherhood in North America
by Mohamed Akram
May 19, 1991
View the full document
Summary:
This May 1991 memo was written by Mohamed Akram, a.k.a. Mohamed Adlouni, for the Shura Council of the Muslim Brotherhood. In the introductory letter, Akram referenced a "long-term plan…approved and adopted" by the Shura Council in 1987 and proposed this memo as a supplement to that plan and requested that the memo be added to the agenda for an upcoming Council meeting. Appended to the document is a list of all Muslim Brotherhood organizations in North America as of 1991.
Notable quotes:
Enablement of Islam in North America, meaning: establishing an effective and stable Islamic Movement led by the Muslim Brotherhood which adopts Muslims' causes domestically and globally, and which works to expand the observant Muslim base, aims at unifying and directing Muslims' efforts, presents Islam as a civilization alternative, and supports the global Islamic state, wherever it is.
In order for Islam and its Movement to become "a part of the homeland" in which it lives, "stable" in its land, "rooted" in the spirits and minds of its people, "enabled" in the live [sic] of its society and has firmly-established "organizations" on which the Islamic structure is built and with which the testimony of civilization is achieved, the Movement must plan and struggle to obtain "the keys" and the tools of this process in carry [sic] out this grand mission as a "Civilization Jihadist" responsibility which lies on the shoulders of Muslims and – on top of them – the Muslim Brotherhood in this country.
The process of settlement is a "Civilization-Jihadist Proecess" with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who chose to slack. But, would the slackers and the Mujahedeen be equal.
I agree that wholesale slaughter of Gazans would be wrong, but on much narrower grounds: because what would be morally permissible is the least amount of killing necessary to insure the safety of Jews, and as of yet we don't know what that is. What has been done so far clearly has failed, but there are numerous steps that might be taken short of total slaughter that could be implemented: larger empty buffer zones; no entry into Israel under any circumstances; keeping the hostile population disarmed; outlawing genocidal education of young Palestinians; not deliberately targeting civilians but taking no extraordinary measures to spare them either, thus adhering to international law in a more minimal way and sparing soldiers; killing terrorists immediately; and many more. (There is of course the question respecting what Israel could get away with without endangering its relationships and trade, but that's a separate discussion; and in any case, any of these would be more palatable than wholesale slaughter.) But for those who would reject total killing under any circumstances, I have to ask: how many Jews are you willing to see butchered, raped, mutilated, burnt alive to support your vision?
And how much “collateral damage” are you willing to accept for your security goals…??
An extra 100,000? 200,000? More? You talk casually about slaughter. As if it’s cattle. If you talk slaughter then don’t be suprised when people talk slaughter and substitute us. The very act of killing shreds souls. Defensive warfare can be morally justified. But your taste for blood is sickening Jerry.
You kill the enemy and keep killing until they surrender.
As for how much collateral damage I'm willing to accept? I adopt the World War II model. The goal is unconditional surrender. Whatever it takes.
Whatever it takes as long as you yourself aren’t in the front lines risking your own life.
That's a truly foolish comment, being that my views are designed to drastically reduce the risks of being in the front lines, whether that's the front lines of the military or those who live near the border. I should be asking you why you are so willing to expend Jewish lives, in the front lines or otherwise. Thus far you've contributed little of substance, just emotional outbursts we could find anywhere on the internet with little effort. It might be beneficial for you if you learned to construct an argument and behave like an adult.
Not a taste for blood, just concern for the lives of Jews. I notice you didn't answer my concluding question, so for convenience I'll repeat it: How many Jews are you willing to see butchered, raped, mutilated, burnt alive to support your vision? See if you can discuss these matters without hysteria.
He can't answer. He does not truly understand, or more likely is afraid to acknowledge the enemies Israel and the Jews are facing. Hamas and their supporters need to surrender or face utter annihilation.
Unfortunately some people remain stuck in their teenage years, when it's all about asserting one's opinions and feelings of righteousness. Some people graduate to seeking out opposing opinions, carefully weighing arguments, subordinating strong emotions to thought, and asking themselves the tough questions even before someone else does; some people do not.
Barashi is right. But I don't care how they leave, either breathing or not.
Hashem was right. Slifkin was wrong.
Goldstein believed that an attack was imminent.
That the IDF knew of and or had warned him of or that he had heard of or
He's a murderous doctor, an aberration amongst Jews
Ben Gvir has accomplished more than any other in his position in getting guns and ammunition into the hands of Jews. If he was a tel Aviv tranny getting that done I'd be down with it, the beauty of Israel is the pluralistic coming together on occasion and getting things done.
Smotrich is also deemed a extreme right wing extremist by those who label reality based observant Jews and he was able to thwart and stymie the banking threats Biden imposed and could have brought down the Palestinian authority as a good first step as they have abrogated every bit of the Oslo accords.
A column in Yisrael HaYom recently pointed out that, like him or not, Ben Gvir turned out to be right on a bunch of things. Families of released Palestinian prisoners have started to complain how spartan (not inhuman) their imprisonment had become lately. Jews are openly praying on the Temple Mount and the world has not exploded. Etc.
But those policies don't define him as an extremist. They're rather mainstream right-wing views. That and his liberal gun policy wouldn't be out of place in American conservative circles.
The true test would be whether he would force new elections if Bibi prematurely ends the war with Hamas still a threat.
200,000 new weapons in Jewish hands if I recall with expediting the process.
I watch Pollard on the MS yeshiva Channel and he called him a traitor 6 months ago in the context of JP reasons 🤷
They call everybody traitor🕳️
Pollard actually WAS a traitor and spent 30 years in prison after being caught.
Pollard should either not have taken the oath or resigned. He was clearly over-sentenced, but he was not innocent.
Pollard cut a plea deal—and the US reneged on it.
—US Secretary of Defense, Casper Weinberger—the kind of State Dept. Jew who’s no friend of Israel or the Jewish people (& not just because of Pollard’s case)—interceded in Pollard‘s case, in a truly irregular breach of protocol, basically to assure that he would be sentenced with extreme harshness.
By any reasonable yardstick, Pollard’s sentence was wildly out of proportion to several other, not just comparable but objectively worse cases of espionage—a couple of them right around the same time, and which led directly to the deaths of American agents—something which, despite the relentless lying & distortion of history from the Lefty, was not remotely the case with Pollard.
The whole Pollard affair was suspicious, dishonorable & inarguably antisemitic.
Yes, he committed espionage. But it is disingenuous for people to pretend there aren’t different shadings of that crime… when we all accept that there are, legally & morally, different ‘degrees’ of killing someone.
"comparable but objectively worse cases of espionage—a couple of them right around the same time"
The Walker brothers died after 29 years in prison. Jerry Whitworth is currently serving a 365 year prison sentence. Hanssen and Ames are serving life without parole. And as I noted, the Rosenbergs were executed. Pollard got off easy.
It was POLLARD and his then wife who broke the plea deal by going to the media. Judges don't like it when convicted felons break plea deals.
The Rosenbergs were executed for espionage. They were also spying for an ally.
Your defense of the indefensible is one justificstion for anti-Semitism in the US. The dual loyalty canard keeps popping up again and again, including from Donald Trump. Julius Rosenberg was a traitor and so was Jonathan Pollard.
That's true. He also violated his security oath.
He had nothing on your church boy Robert Hanson who spied for opus they and was known for 20 years by clergy and bitches in the FBI and Bill Barr in the department of Justice who still is a Jesuit opus de motherfucker plant today
Pollard rescued information that was being withheld with malevolent intent by cunts within the state department
MIZRACHI
PRAYER FOR CAPTIVES
מי שברך לשבויים
מִי שֶׁבֵּרַךְ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ אַבְרָהָם יִצְחָק וְיַעֲקֹב יוֹסֵף מֹשֶׁה וְאַהֲרֹן דָּוִד וּשְׁלֹמֹה, הוּא יְבָרֵךְ וְיִשְׁמֹר וְיִנְצֹר אֶת אֲחֵינוּ בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל הַשָּׁבוּיִים, בַּעֲבוּר שֶׁאָנוּ מִתְפַּלְלִים בַּעֲבוּרָם, הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא יִמָּלֵא רַחֲמִים עֲלֵיהֶם, יִשְׁמְרֵם מִכָּל צָרָה וְצוּקָה ,וְהַצְלָחָה בְּכָל מַעֲשֵׂה יְדֵיהֶם וּמִכָּל נֶגַע וּמַחֲלָה וְיִשְׁלַח בְּרָכָה יוֹצִיאֵם מֵחֹשֶׁךְ וְצַלְמָוֶת, וִישִׁיבֵם מְהֵרָה לְחֵיק מִשְׁפְּחוֹתֵיהֶם, .וְנֹאמַר אָמֵן
He who blessed our forefathers, Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov, Yosef, Moshe and Aharon, David and Shlomo, may He bless, watch, and guard our brothers who are in captivity. On account of the congregation's praying for them, may the Holy One, Blessed is He grant mercy upon them, protect them from all trouble and sorrow, injury and illness, and send blessing and success in all they do, take them out from darkness and gloom, and speedily return them to the comfort of their families. And let us say: Amen.
Liar. Pollard caused massive harm to American Jews. Every Jew became suspected of dual loyalty. Even Donald Trump spouts such memes. I was working for a defense contractor with a security clearance when Pollard got busted and saw the sequelae. Israel had no defense agreement with the US at the time and had no right to any intelligence information from the US.
Charles Hall: Apparently it is okay to minimize the genocide of others if you are are Jewish.
And you wonder why there is anti-Semitism.>>>
That statement is antisemitic, full stop.
You're clearly in no position to determine which Jew caused massive harm to the rest of us.
People like you cause massive harm to Jews wherever your toxic comments & views get exposure. Any Jew who disagrees with your inane Lefty positions, you try to portray as (weirdly) a Holocaust denier, a racist, and apparently, the reason there is anti-Semitism in the world.
That makes you essentially a hater of Jews—as bad as any other rabid antisemite. You like SOME Jews—the ones who share your incoherent Lefty views. Not good enough.
America cause massive harm to Jews when it refused the St Louis and did an arms embargo against Israel so fuck off with your bullshit
Pollard did NOT “cause massive harm to American Jews”.
That is a lie, something antisemites & their fellow travelers on the Jewish hard-Left try to turn into “history”.
MIZRACHI
PRAYER FOR CAPTIVES
מי שברך לשבויים
מִי שֶׁבֵּרַךְ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ אַבְרָהָם יִצְחָק וְיַעֲקֹב יוֹסֵף מֹשֶׁה וְאַהֲרֹן דָּוִד וּשְׁלֹמֹה, הוּא יְבָרֵךְ וְיִשְׁמֹר וְיִנְצֹר אֶת אֲחֵינוּ בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל הַשָּׁבוּיִים, בַּעֲבוּר שֶׁאָנוּ מִתְפַּלְלִים בַּעֲבוּרָם, הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא יִמָּלֵא רַחֲמִים עֲלֵיהֶם, יִשְׁמְרֵם מִכָּל צָרָה וְצוּקָה ,וְהַצְלָחָה בְּכָל מַעֲשֵׂה יְדֵיהֶם וּמִכָּל נֶגַע וּמַחֲלָה וְיִשְׁלַח בְּרָכָה יוֹצִיאֵם מֵחֹשֶׁךְ וְצַלְמָוֶת, וִישִׁיבֵם מְהֵרָה לְחֵיק מִשְׁפְּחוֹתֵיהֶם, .וְנֹאמַר אָמֵן
He who blessed our forefathers, Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov, Yosef, Moshe and Aharon, David and Shlomo, may He bless, watch, and guard our brothers who are in captivity. On account of the congregation's praying for them, may the Holy One, Blessed is He grant mercy upon them, protect them from all trouble and sorrow, injury and illness, and send blessing and success in all they do, take them out from darkness and gloom, and speedily return them to the comfort of their families. And let us say: Amen.
Pollard didn't "rescue" anything. He tried to sell information to other countries, too. Israel was not entitled to the information he sold. No country, not even NATO allies, is "entitled" to such.
Hanssen is serving life without parole. Pollard is living free. Pollard got off easy.
Hanssen got away with it for 20 years with Opus dei stooges in the government knowing
"getting guns and ammunition into the hands of Jews. "
Joe Biden did more. $14 billion worth since last April.
USAid 👀👀
Biden also withheld munitions and equipment (including bulldozers and ammunition) that Israel had bought and paid for.
The Investigative Project on Terrorism
Mobile Edition
Regular Site
Home | Articles | Blog | Search
An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Brotherhood in North America
by Mohamed Akram
May 19, 1991
View the full document
Summary:
This May 1991 memo was written by Mohamed Akram, a.k.a. Mohamed Adlouni, for the Shura Council of the Muslim Brotherhood. In the introductory letter, Akram referenced a "long-term plan…approved and adopted" by the Shura Council in 1987 and proposed this memo as a supplement to that plan and requested that the memo be added to the agenda for an upcoming Council meeting. Appended to the document is a list of all Muslim Brotherhood organizations in North America as of 1991.
Notable quotes:
Enablement of Islam in North America, meaning: establishing an effective and stable Islamic Movement led by the Muslim Brotherhood which adopts Muslims' causes domestically and globally, and which works to expand the observant Muslim base, aims at unifying and directing Muslims' efforts, presents Islam as a civilization alternative, and supports the global Islamic state, wherever it is.
In order for Islam and its Movement to become "a part of the homeland" in which it lives, "stable" in its land, "rooted" in the spirits and minds of its people, "enabled" in the live [sic] of its society and has firmly-established "organizations" on which the Islamic structure is built and with which the testimony of civilization is achieved, the Movement must plan and struggle to obtain "the keys" and the tools of this process in carry [sic] out this grand mission as a "Civilization Jihadist" responsibility which lies on the shoulders of Muslims and – on top of them – the Muslim Brotherhood in this country.
The process of settlement is a "Civilization-Jihadist Proecess" with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who chose to slack. But, would the slackers and the Mujahedeen be equal.
Why does anybody care about the life of a Palestinian, when they themselves don't care ? They are a death cult who as martyrs enter paradise.
Where is it written that just because our enemies don’t value life, we’re free to be as barbaric as they are?
When did that happen and why not? Wars are supposed to be fought to win, get it done quickly that's why it's called war dragging it out stupidly is not halaka.
In 1936 (the British Mandate for Palestine lasted from 1920 to 1948) it was the Jews that called enthusiastically adopted the name Palestinian. They named their institutions, like banks and orchestras and newspapers, Palestinian. The Arabs were enraged by this. They complained to the Peel Commission of 1936 that the name Palestine was an offensively Jewish name! Specifically their spokesman said that "Palestine is alien to the Arabs."
Three decades later they became the Ancient Palestinian People. What rubbish!
Secret Hamas docs reveal torture, execution of gay terrorists — while some male Oct. 7 Israeli victims were raped in captivity
By Caitlin Doornbos
Published Feb. 4, 2025, 4:56 p.m. ET
882
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Hamas tortured and executed terrorists within its ranks who allegedly had gay sex, shocking documents show — as sources added some male Israeli victims of the Oct. 7 massacre were raped in captivity.
The Iranian proxy terror group had a running list of recruits who were found to have failed Hamas’ “morality checks” by having same-sex relations — and they paid a heavy price, according to documents recovered by the Israel Defense Forces and shared with The Post.
The documents reveal the “crimes” that were allegedly committed by 94 Hamas recruits — lumping “homosexual conversations,” “flirting with girls without a legal relationship” and “sodomy” in with serious allegations of child rape and torture.
Hamas fighters arriving in a pickup truck at Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza City for the handover of hostage Agam Beger to the Red Cross, dated Jan. 30, 2025.
3
Hamas fighters gather for a hostage handover in Gaza City on Jan. 30.
AP
The allegations, dated between 2012 and 2019, involve recruits to Hamas’ intelligence, military and interior ministry and say the new members were eventually deemed “unacceptable” to continue working with the terror group because of their actions.
“He constantly curses God,” according to one allegation, which added, “Information was received that he sexually harassed a young child.“
Shut up with your equivocations no one wants to do this to them on the Jewish side
And you think your despicable and sick racism will be your ticket to Gan Eden…? You’re as bad as they are. Enjoy hell together
"as bad as they are"?
Seriously?
See, that right there, that is precisely where Lefties [& fellow travelers] always go completely off the rails, morally: because a Jew in 2025 merely SAYING something about Palestinian terrorists that is provocative, perhaps even deeply offensive, but clearly meant to make a point… is NOT "as bad as" people who commit rape, torture, infanticide & mass murder.
How morally twisted, high on your own virtue-signaling and/or just plain stupid do you have to be to make that equivalency?
I know: you, too, are just talking passionately. But for someone so exquisitely judgmental of other people's speech, you might've chosen your words more carefully, and just pointed out why you think the other guy's position is wrong.
The number of people in Israel who are "as bad as they are"—who would run exultantly alongside a truck with a raped/beaten/murdered girl sprawled, broken, in the back, and not be disturbed if not horrified—is statistically nonexistent.
But there is an entire society of people like that in Gaza.
The sort of sick moral equivalency that you tried to pass here serves your own misguided self-righteousness, not any higher moral principle.
Well said.
Facts are facts. Defend yourself against the barbaric savages by whatever means necessary. I do not value the life of Nazis one iota, and most Palestinians are Nazis. If that makes me racist,so be it
Whoa. Relax. You say this to a fellow Jew? Lama Sakeh Rayecha? Do you not know what the Gazans believe about Paradise and Martyrdom? I am not saying I disagree but first understand his point.
But you should disagree—because saying something mean or offensive or unnuanced is NOT "as bad as" people who gleefully DO evil things.
😂🤣😭
In 1936 (the British Mandate for Palestine lasted from 1920 to 1948) it was the Jews that called enthusiastically adopted the name Palestinian. They named their institutions, like banks and orchestras and newspapers, Palestinian. The Arabs were enraged by this. They complained to the Peel Commission of 1936 that the name Palestine was an offensively Jewish name! Specifically their spokesman said that "Palestine is alien to the Arabs."
Three decades later they became the Ancient Palestinian People. What rubbish!
Charles Hall
<<< Apparently it is okay to minimize the genocide of others if you are are Jewish. >>>
That statement is antisemitic, full stop.
Whatever point you thought you're making—about someone who's Jewish being insensitive to other people's suffering (and I'm articulating it far more fairly & articulately than you did)—is completely overshadowed by the way you chose to formulate it. You're no friend of Israel, any more than you're a sincere advocate of justice, humane principles, morality or fairness.
He has zero content on his channel but has facts in comments occasionally yet wraps other things that contain morsels of Truth in the context of a curveball slur with misrepresentations on the side, curious enigma indeed
All of you saying it won't happen again, look at YouTube and watch the gazans 300 meters from the fence between Gaza and Nahal Oz.
They ain't there for a Sunday afternoon drive and picnic.
Oh, it sure will happen again. That's why the whole war was an absolute waste, and useless massacre. Hamas cannot be military destroyed, and if it even were, that would only bring worse. Hate begets hate, and violence begets violence.
And trying to forcefully deport them? That's the best recipe for disaster.
In 1936 (the British Mandate for Palestine lasted from 1920 to 1948) it was the Jews that called enthusiastically adopted the name Palestinian. They named their institutions, like banks and orchestras and newspapers, Palestinian. The Arabs were enraged by this. They complained to the Peel Commission of 1936 that the name Palestine was an offensively Jewish name! Specifically their spokesman said that "Palestine is alien to the Arabs."
Three decades later they became the Ancient Palestinian People. What rubbish!
They will go
what's your plan for a secure Israel, then?
There is no realistic plan for a “secure Israel” in the natural order of things.
From the perspective of realpolitik, it was necessary for Israel to retaliate against Hamas b/c if they hadn’t, it would look like Hamas “won”, Israel would look weak in the eyes of the world, and the public outcry (in Israel) would have been intolerable.
But anyone who actually believed that this “war” would eliminate Hamas was deluding himself from the start, especially since there was apparently never any thought given to who would be responsible for Gaza once Hamas was “gone”.
This will undoubtedly sound very frummie and cliche, but the only solution to the present Israeli-“Palestinian” quagmire is Mashiach.
First of all, break the violence spiral.
All the violence springs from the maniacal genocidal Hamas and their supporters. They intend to destroy Israel and the Jews in it. It is what they live for and die for.
Already been tried, numerous times, horrific results.
“Breaking the cycle of violence“—yes, you updated it to a spiral—is a prime example of the kind of Lefty buzz-phrase that was mindless even years ago, but is today totally discredited.
The only thing being done again and again is war.
That’s a ridiculous statement. Poverty & cancer & baldness & divorce are also “being done again and again”—like war, they are undesirable things that are unlikely to ever be totally eradicated. This is real life, not Star Trek.
As with those things, we nevertheless keep fighting and making progress.
But the Left has never contributed to that progress in a positive way—not to the Middle East situation, or to world peace in general. It has only ever hindered meaningful progress with its inane, hypocritical, phony-humanitarian nonsense.
Leftist utopian pointing out the futility of war as he passively laments war without noticing the cause of war or how to end war
They must go
לג וַיֹּ֣אמֶר שְׁמוּאֵ֔ל כַּֽאֲשֶׁ֨ר שִׁכְּלָ֤ה נָשִׁים֙ חַרְבֶּ֔ךָ כֵּן־תִּשְׁכַּ֥ל מִנָּשִׁ֖ים אִמֶּ֑ךָ וַיְשַׁסֵּ֨ף שְׁמוּאֵ֧ל אֶת־אֲגָ֛ג לִפְנֵ֥י יְהֹוָ֖ה בַּגִּלְגָּֽל:
Now is not the time to be smart than the נביא
כל המרחם אל האכזרים סופו לרחם על הרחמנים
Except Agag was king of the *actual* Amalekites whom Sha’ul had been explicitly commanded by an *actual* navi to wipe out according to Hashem’s direct instruction.
We have neither actual Amalekites nor actual nevi’im, so any supposed parallel btwn that circumstance and ours is moot.
So you're ruling that EVERY SINGLE Palestinian authority is an actual halachic Amalekite, to be halachically dealt with accordingly? You don't think that's a little presumptuous?
I guess Rabbi Slifkin thinks that certain pesukim in Tanach are verbotten to be mined for possible relevance
Vast majority of Palestinians are barbaric savages and vow to destroy Israel. If given a chance they would Holocaust the Jews in Israel and probably Jews worldwide. They are Nazis and deserve annihilation.
Too chicken to put your name to your racist screed…?
I get my facts from the actions and statements by Hamas and Palestinians. You need to face reality, even if it hurts.
Just calling something “racist” is not an argument—even if Lefties persist in thinking it is…
…just as they cling to all the rest of their pernicious nonsense, even after the events on Oct. 7 should’ve clued them in to the fact that they’re utterly, disastrously wrong about everything.
Weak
Sub stack is full of lunatics and you with the generic name that's possibly real is telling someone with the potentially specific name to put their real name out there so that their life and kids can be exposed by lunatics fuck off with your bullshit
🥱
,R’ Slifkin, I agree that such thinking is wrong—but I very much disagree with your apparent feeling that it’s a major problem that warranted equal column space to what you so eloquently said last week, about Jews foolishly misjudging other Jews over the issue of population transfer.
That essay was spot-on, and it sorely needed saying. And now, this—it reminds me of the way certain people can never condemn antisemitism without mentioning Islamophobia.
The tiny minority of Israelis who might actually kill a random, presumably innocent Palestinian is not remotely comparable or proportionate to the overwhelming majority of Palestinians who we have actually seen supporting such behavior, for decades.
Even those Israelis who shout approval at harsh statements about killing or expelling Palestinians are only doing what they are doing: venting harsh feelings; there is extremely little historical basis to suggest that most of these Israeli Jews would actually act on those statements.
Fetishizing Baruch Goldstein as the exemplar of this alleged sector of the Israeli public —as you have done here, and as every Jew to the left of Netanyahu has done for decades— is dishonest in precisely the way you so effectively described certain Jewish moral scolds in your previous essay: Goldstein did what he did, there was no excusing it. But it would be intellectually dishonest to claim he would have advocated for, or effectuated the mass murder of every single Palestinian.
Every day, every Jew is subjected to a torrent of media, public opinion, and statements from govts. around the world, saying that WE are committing genocide, while also ignoring the mass rape & slaughter of Jews.
In that context, an anguished Jew who murdered random Arabs [who, statistically, were likely pro-terrorism] is indeed a murderer—but he is also someone reacting to a hypocritical world, that, still to this day, offers little hope of real justice to Jews.
The Palestinians, for all their alleged suffering, have been treated with far more humanity by the IDF than they encounter from any Hamas thug. And still, they all advocate for the murder of random Israelis!
So, NOT the same.
Let’s not get bogged down in offensive equivalencies & comparisons… not even to Baruch Goldstein.
Well said
"All this is completely different from the sort of forced population transfer proposed by Trump"
The fact that Ben-Gvir and friends want to kill Palestinians does NOT make a forced population transfer a moderate position. It is still an an immoral and useless suggestion that hopefully will drop out from the discourse. Israelis are not immoral for being tempted by it given the horrors of Oct 7, but actually executing it would be a great crime. Israel's existence is not in any way threatened by Gaza and eliminating the Gaza threat would not in any way be removing Israel's greater threats which come from Iran through Hezbollah and also the possibility of Islamist regimes taking hold in Egypt and Jordan.
Israel is absolutely threatened by a Hamas-run Gaza, in several ways.
Israel's existence is not threatened by a Hamas-run Gaza. The inhumane things that they were able to "accomplish" was a combination of Israel allowing Qatar to funnel large amounts of money to Hamas, Hamas building up over years, and Israel higher ups in intelligence failing to listen to reports that Hamas was openly practicing an invasion. The result was a horrible and intolerable massacre that did not in any way threaten the existence of Israel as a state and could not be repeated. I also think that a Hamas-run Gaza is intolerable, but Netanyahu has done everything in his power to keep Hamas as the only viable alternative for Gaza since he has consistently put the kibosh on any discussion of who else would run a post-war Gaza. Hezbollah partly running Lebanon is still a much, much greater threat. So of course would be losing the detente with Egypt, Jordan and other Arab states.
David, you are deeply mistaken in saying that Israel is not threatened by a Hamas-run Gaza. It is threatened in so many ways. First there is the obvious risk of cross-border breaches. Then there is the risk from rockets. Then there is the sheer fact of Hamas surviving as the ruling authority, which is not only psychologically devastating for Israel, but also emboldens Israel's enemies.
Sorry , I didn't see this before. I didn't say there is no threat. I said there is no existential threat which might justify breaking both international law and the laws of basic humanity (as such a threat existed in 1948). Moreover, the threat from Hamas in Gaza is much less than the threat for Hezbollah, the new Syrian regime if they go full Islamist and Egypt and Jordan if the monarchy and military dictatorship are eventually toppled and replaced with even a democratic regime (which would be the best case scenario). And it already happened once in Egypt. And of course Iran. I don't think that leaving Hamas in power in Gaza is a reasonable option but the Israeli right is making that option the only one by refusing to even start to discuss who else might take charge, since they wan the Gaza war to go on indefinitely. The threats you mention are ones that lots of countries face with enemies on their borders and not addressed by population transfers.
Israeli children are threatened by the proximity of the Arabs. So very naturally, Israeli parents who love their children opt for the liquidation of the Gazan biomass.
That would be deserved
There are 2 million Palestinians who are citizens of Israel.
So? Will you check the passport of those threatening your children? I suppose you’re into child sacrifice.
Could you rephrase your question? I don’t know what you are getting at. But yes Israel does check passports and identity cards for entry to Israel and the 2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel are allowed reentry.
They will leave
"It is still an an immoral..."
How is it immoral?
"useless "
It's not useless. It's just lacking practical details. The population has already been displaced within Gaza. 281 million people around the world migrate yearly. It's not like it hasn't been done before.
" Israel's existence is not in any way threatened by Gaza"
Don't be so callous. It's enough that the goons on this blog go on how it's not a מלחמת מצוה. We don't need (or expect) such nonsense coming from you.
" and eliminating the Gaza threat would not in any way be removing Israel's greater threats"
And global warming is more threatening that eliminating exotic pronouns. But I don't see the leftists lose the ability to multi-task.
But here's the thing. Transfer will happen, whether by an organized program for volunteer emigration or desperate chaos like the Vietnam boat people. The alternative to transfer is a miserable existence among the rubble. Who is going to fund the reconstruction if there's no guarantee of enduring peace, and no ensuring that Hamas and other criminal outfits won't embezzle the funding?
"eliminating exotic pronouns".
This was a throwaway line from you, but I have to respond to one thing. Trans people exist. Non-binary people exist. Gay people exist. Please treat others with respect and dignity. Even if are against trans women in women's sports, don't lose your morality and your humanity because of a culture war.
The “existence” of trans, “non-binary”, and (apparently) gay people has no bearing on the ridiculousness of “exotic pronouns”.
Speaking of culture wars
In 1936 (the British Mandate for Palestine lasted from 1920 to 1948) it was the Jews that called enthusiastically adopted the name Palestinian. They named their institutions, like banks and orchestras and newspapers, Palestinian. The Arabs were enraged by this. They complained to the Peel Commission of 1936 that the name Palestine was an offensively Jewish name! Specifically their spokesman said that "Palestine is alien to the Arabs."
Three decades later they became the Ancient Palestinian People. What rubbish!
But climate change...
😂
"How is it immoral?". Kind of useless to try to answer if you imagine otherwise. But I know that most Israelis do consider it immoral. That is why the Israel foundation myth explains (or used to explain) that Palestinians who lost their homes in 1948 all did so voluntarily. It was not pleasant to acknowledge the reality that Palestinian civilians were expelled from their villages in 1948. We can understand that the war of independence was an existential war for both Israel and the Jews that justified extreme and emergency actions to prevent an even worse moral calamity. That is not the case here.
"It's not useless."
It's a useless discussion because Israel will no do it and other countries won't cooperate. It's useless practically because it doesn't protect against any real threat but increase all the other more important threats to Israel all around. Egypt being run again by Islamists being just one.
"Don't be so callous. It's enough that the goons on this blog go on how it's not a מלחמת מצוה." Milchemet Mitzvah is about protecting from all threats, not just existential ones. Hamas as it existed at the time (but now destroyed) put everything into a single surprise attack that Israel could have easily blocked had they taken seriously their open-air practice drills for the attack. Even with all that, there was simply no serious threat to Israel's existence. There was a horrible rape and massacre. The attack that actually happened has already been addressed by wiping out gaza's military capabilities, their leadership and the fact that such a surprise would no longer be a surprise.
"And global warming is more threatening that eliminating exotic pronouns."
Let me explain what I mean. It makes no sense to say that gazans living in gaza is an intolerable threat to Israel which can't be abided and requires expelling all Palestinians from Gaza while simultaneously saying that you can deal with Lebanon without such expulsion. If we are handling the bigger Hezbollah threat in the usual way, we can handle the much, much smaller threat from Gaza as well.
" It makes no sense to say that gazans living in gaza is an intolerable threat to Israel which can't be abided and requires expelling all Palestinians from Gaza while simultaneously saying that you can deal with Lebanon without such expulsion. "
It might not be geometrically consistent, but it makes sense.
"Even with all that, there was simply no serious threat to Israel's existence. There was a horrible rape and massacre."
Don't be so callous.
Prissy sanctimonious craven smarmy and ludicrous
"How is it immoral?". Kind of useless to try to answer if you imagine otherwise..."
...and you haven't answered the question. Nor understood. How is voluntary migration from a hellhole and a site of legitimate military action immoral? How is forceful transfer of terrorists immoral? And how are such actions against international law?
I wrote a forced migration is immoral. You agree that would be immoral? Then we can go on to what is being proposed.
Forced migration is not always immoral. It would not be immoral to encourage volunteer migration. Most Palestinians are Nazis, so a forced migration is not immoral either. But even if most are not Nazis, it is moral to give them a better life and stop with their forever war against Israel.
You can go on blathering all night about what is going to happen and whatever you say isn't going to change what is necessary, cry harder seethe more or maybe go to a local clinic and help the men who were raped by Hamas
Secret Hamas docs reveal torture, execution of gay terrorists — while some male Oct. 7 Israeli victims were raped in captivity
By Caitlin Doornbos
Published Feb. 4, 2025, 4:56 p.m. ET
882
Sorry, the video player failed to load.
(Error Code: 100013)
Hamas tortured and executed terrorists within its ranks who allegedly had gay sex, shocking documents show — as sources added some male Israeli victims of the Oct. 7 massacre were raped in captivity.
The Iranian proxy terror group had a running list of recruits who were found to have failed Hamas’ “morality checks” by having same-sex relations — and they paid a heavy price, according to documents recovered by the Israel Defense Forces and shared with The Post.
The documents reveal the “crimes” that were allegedly committed by 94 Hamas recruits — lumping “homosexual conversations,” “flirting with girls without a legal relationship” and “sodomy” in with serious allegations of child rape and torture.
Hamas fighters arriving in a pickup truck at Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza City for the handover of hostage Agam Beger to the Red Cross, dated Jan. 30, 2025.
3
Hamas fighters gather for a hostage handover in Gaza City on Jan. 30.
AP
The allegations, dated between 2012 and 2019, involve recruits to Hamas’ intelligence, military and interior ministry and say the new members were eventually deemed “unacceptable” to continue working with the terror group because of their actions.
“He constantly curses God,” according to one allegation, which added, “Information was received that he sexually harassed a young child.“
Tldr
Neighboring Arabs said to get out to their Arab brethren so the Arab brethren got out and the Arabs started a war and lost and here you are supposedly Jewish crying about it, they will leave its best they must go 57 Islamic Nations 22 Arab Nations and none of them get along amongst themselves much less with Jews
30 + 1,000 killed in Jordan in 1970 by a fellow Muslim 50,000 killed in Syria at the Hama massacres by assad
And your hyperventilating like a spaz when the gift gets handed to take them away
The Arab cries out, the Jew hit me back 😜😭🤣
In 1936 (the British Mandate for Palestine lasted from 1920 to 1948) it was the Jews that called enthusiastically adopted the name Palestinian. They named their institutions, like banks and orchestras and newspapers, Palestinian. The Arabs were enraged by this. They complained to the Peel Commission of 1936 that the name Palestine was an offensively Jewish name! Specifically their spokesman said that "Palestine is alien to the Arabs."
Three decades later they became the Ancient Palestinian People. What rubbish!