A group of 'self-appointed rabbis and halachic decisors' who were never elected to any rabbinical position in any community and are therefore forbidden to issue halachic rulings, are dividing the Jewish people and "issuing rulings" on matters of life and death. They "rule" even for those who are not students of their yeshivas and for every observant Jew! Who do they think they are??? They do this without investigating the reality on which they are "ruling" and without providing any halachic source for their "rulings."
Yes some of them are great halachic authorities and have published far more than you on Torah. They don't owe you any explanation, since the beginning of the state the charedim have claimed that the army is detrimental for religious Jews and they don't believe in its efforts to try and change that. Agree or disagree with them, there's no chiddush here
(1) Since the beginning of the Zionist movement, particularly anti-Zionist Hasidic leaders (admorim) claimed that under every tree in Israel stands a prostitute. Based on this claim, a certain rebbe forbade relatives from immigrating to Israel during the Holocaust. They did not come and were murdered. He, however, left Europe that very night with the help of 'Zionists,' and thus his family was saved. So you are mistaken. The claim is not about the army but about the Holy Land.
(2) Second error: The claim that the army is unsuitable for observant Jews is new and did not exist until recently.
(3) Incorrect claim: Until Menachem Begin rose to power, most Haredim served in the army. For example, in the early 1970s, I did basic training in a Haredi artillery unit. At the same time, there was also combat training for Haredim in armored and Nahal units. Serving alongside me in the platoon were Haredim who today are heads of yeshivas and city rabbis. So you are not being accurate, to say the least.
(5) Incorrect claim: It is the obligation of every rabbi who publishes a halachic ruling to explain his decision thoroughly and to demonstrate why opposing rulings are problematic.
(6) The very claim that because the outcome of rescuing Jews from rape, kidnapping, and murder might be halachically problematic, it is therefore forbidden to rescue them, does not exist in any halachic book to this day.
(7) You claim that Haredi rabbis do not believe they can change the nature of the army. Are they human? Does their lack of faith justify rape? Murder? Kidnapping?
I ask this question many times - what happens when the chloni says he also does not want to serve. he joins an on line yeshiva, hangs around and enjoys life. What can you do to him, he is registered in a yeshiva. Most people proceed to scratch their nose while trying to cough up some silly argument
In other words we have a VOLUNTEER ARMY. You cant say so and so is exempt and not others doing the same thing.
This is simply not the case. Online yeshivas cannot give exemptions. You have to be enrolled in real bricks and mortar yeshiva that is approved by the army and ministry of education. Only traditional yeshivot are approved. The claim that we have a volunteer army is completely false.
1) Anti-Zionist Chasidim have nothing to do with the Sephardi Jews many of whom were in the holy land before the state. The claim in the letter is that the IDF is not a place for observant Jews- and if they are at a certain level of observance, that claim is still true (until maybe Chashmonaim proves otherwise)
2) The claim has existed as long as the IDF has been an educational "melting pot" for brainwashing people, and this has existed for decades, as I saw in the 90s in my own-charedi-unit
3) Maybe in the 70s you had a haven but there were many other units where religion was belittled. The Hesder units were separate but even they wouldn't have been appropriate for a die-hard charedi
4) Your biggest mistake is that this is not a halachic ruling its a letter of chizuk to a guy who is a Baal Teshuva who went to study in yeshiva and was thrown into jail. Thus your claim that they need to explain their decision is moot.
5) The rabbis are not claiming that its forbidden to rescue Jews- far from it. They are stating that every truly observant Jew (not just one who is religious but one who wants to keep all 613 with no compromises) there are problems with service. There are numerous halachic issues which arise in IDF service- Kol Isha, Machana Kadosh, Lo Taturu, yichud etc. (Again, maybe Chashmonaim will solve these problems but this must be proved)
6) The IDF is not going to modify to accommodate the needs of every charedi. The Chashmonaim cannot go to mikveh- for some this is obligatory everyday- and the kashrus issues are also complex, as the IDF can't cater to every kashrus. There is so much else problematic - a secular commander endangering soldiers either for personal glory or for wrong moral reasons like saving enemy children. I can't believe people dismiss these complexities simply because "the army needs charedim"
7) I am the father of five sons who have all served in some form in the IDF and a sixth who is due to join soon, I have no qualms about their service and BH they are all frum but except for one (who did civil service) they are far from charedi and the IDF has some part in that. Anyone who thinks you go in and come out exactly the same -if you were charedi beforehand- is wearing blinders
There is no way they can "keep all 613 mitzvot with no compromises" by not serving. They are keeping some they decide to prioritize, while totally ignoring others like "לא תעמוד על דם רעך"
Ok, but Chashmonaim was set up to meet the Chareidim's terms. Some Chareidim only enlisted for that reason. Then the IDF didn't make good on their promise (at least so far). This is a blow to the IDF's credibility as now Chareidim whose resistance was weakening are worrying what will be in the future.
" The claim has existed as long as the IDF has been an educational "melting pot" for brainwashing people, and this has existed for decades, as I saw in the 90s in my own-charedi-unit"
"Brainwashing", in the informal sense that you use the term, is not likely to effective against individuals with even a minor training in independent thinking. Whether it's effective against those who have been brainwashed not to think critically is another question.
"melting pot"
What a load of twaddle. You think we've got a melting pot? Have you seen the amount of political parties- including those that don't make the cut, and those which have appeared and disappeared? If there was a coherent Israeli identity, somehow magically formed by a few years in the IDF, we'd have a more stable government which wouldn't need to bribe the Charedi parties for its survival. You find me another country of some 10 million that is as varied in identity as Israel!
However, I remain in my position that this move is deliberately targeted against the State of Israel and does not stem from religious issues. Why?
Because there is a serious problem in Haredi society of people leaving this way of life, and there is no treatment or conclusions drawn from it. Hence, the issue of abandoning Haredi life does not seem to trouble those rabbis.
How do we know this?
For example, the lack of rabbinic response to what happened this year on Pourim in Williamsburg.
According to a survey conducted by the Central Bureau of Statistics in 2018, about 13% of Haredim reported that they no longer define themselves as Haredi. But, no Haredi response.
Even without a survey, the election results for Ashkenazi Haredi parties show that a very large percentage of Haredi society does not identify with the Haredi world itself. How do we see this? By the consistent number of Ashkenazi Haredi members of Knesset. In the 1960s, there were 5-6, and today there are 6-7. This is despite the fact that since the 1980s, a Haredi family has had between 2X and 3X more children than a religious-Zionist family and 4X more than the general population. For comparison: in the 1960s, there were about 12 members of Knesset from the Mizrachi (religious-Zionist) party. If we count knitted kippot and women’s head coverings in the Knesset today, we reach 32-36, three times more than in the 1960s.
The conclusion from all these numbers is that the religious-Zionist lifestyle maintains its members' adherence to religious observance better than the Haredi lifestyle maintains Haredi identity. This fact does not seem to trouble the Haredi rabbinic leadership at all. Therefore, their argument that it is specifically the Haredi in the army that concerns them is very problematic, to say the least.
I don't think you can judge from people's political opinions about the size of their communities. The reason for the lack of growth of Ashkenazi charedi party stem from numerous reasons: 1) a large body of extremists who won't vote at all i.e. Jerusalem faction, Eda Charedis and other malcontents 2) many Ashkenazim are so disgusted by the infighting in the poorly named Agudas Yisrael that they prefer Shas or Ben Gvir 3) many Charedim vote Likud to try and influence party decisions.
The Ashkenazi charedim are actually the fastest growing sector and make up about half or more of the estimated 1.2 million charedim in Israel.
As for the religious Zionist MKs many are supported by traditional and secular Jews. Currently the attrition rate from the RZ community is way higher than 13% and probably closer to 30%, but many still vote for theie parent party
> a secular commander endangering soldiers either for personal glory or for wrong moral reasons like saving enemy children. I can't believe people dismiss these complexities simply because "the army needs charedim"
I would appreciate your help: What are the halachic books that these rabbis wrote? Who and where refers to their halachic rulings? Since when have they been issuing rulings for the entire Jewish world, and why is everyone accepting their decisions?
Even with nearly total conscription of those eligible, the US still had to import hundreds of thousands of guest workers from Mexico, mostly for agricultural work, as the farm workers almost all either volunteered or were drafted into the US military. (Mexico was an actual ally -- it declared war on Germany, Italy, and Japan in May 1942 -- but did not impose conscription and only one Mexican air squadron actually saw combat. My late father in law was one of the US volunteers from a farm family, enlisting in the Marines the week after Pearl Harbor. Interestingly his two daughters would both be born in Mexico.)
Interestingly, the charedim- apart I guess from the very extremes- never claim anything like conscientious objection. (In this case it would have to be something like, "I don't believe in the State for religious reasons.") I imagine a big part of that is because it would make them look really, really bad. It is of course the *actual* reason, stripped of all pretense.
But in any event, Israel doesn't allow for conscientious objectors. It throws them (usually left-wing peaceniks) in jail.
Oh, of course! They want an army so they can be protected. (And of course the leftist pacifists want an army too. Indeed, almost all of them *do* serve. The head of Peace Now has even talked about how he's done miluim in the Shomron, and how nice the "settlers" are to him.) They don't think it necessarily has to be an *Israeli* army. (That no other army would protect them is something they haven't thought about. I still remember Avi Shafran's infamous line that it makes no difference to him "what flag flies over the Kosel" in which he failed to acknowledge that if that flag was anything other than the Israeli one he wouldn't be able to go to the Kotel.)
The question then is *why* they don't want to be in it. The most obvious answer is that being in an army is hard work at best and dangerous to one's life at worst. That and the fact that the government tells them they're exempt just comes together for non-service without much thought.
But I'm still convinced that a major part of it remains that they just still haven't made their peace with the fact that the State of Israel exists, and even more so, that they are a part of it. If you don't feel that you're part of Israeli society, and you kinda sorta don't really believe in this whole "State" thing in the first place, why serve?
Of course this is still silly: You serve because you're protecting people regardless of whatever the political entity is. But that's their thoughts- if they ever bother to think them through.
"they just still haven't made their peace with the fact that the State of Israel exists,"
But they have made their peace with גלות.
But more seriously, you are partially correct. Sovereignty was not supposed to be restored before the messianic era. Sure, the Rambam paskened that one should not make definitive statements about the messianic era beyond vague generalities, but who listens?
But more relevant is that the State, and other aspects of post-ghetto life, introduce real challenges, halachic and hashkafic. Can one step out of the ghetto without some real courageous problem solving skills? And that's stepping out of the ghetto into the wider world. Add to that a sovereign State and you've got real dilemmas.
So the answer is, שב ועל תעשה, we shall keep our ghetto (and it will be supported and sustained by those outside of it.) and avoid all these conundrums. Hence the cries of "we didn't ask for a State!". They really mean it.
(Speculation: It should come as no surprise that this sort of thinking is particularly pronounced in the Lithuanian world with its tendency to rely on Brisker lomdus with its theoretical abstractions & diffidence when it comes to coming to a practical conclusions.)
This behavior resembles that of the antisemitic Christian Church throughout history towards the Jews. They call themselves "Israel," while we, the descendants of the Children of Israel who left Egypt and received the Torah at Mount Sinai, do not belong to the people of God.
But beware, among these antisemitic Christians, there were not a few Jews who converted to Christianity
The film The disputation of Barcelona has a Jewish convert disputer against Ramban who angrily enables the Ramban to make the case for Judaism. Odd haircuts
I’m waiting for these Torah True chareidi freeloaders to make good on their יהרוג ואל יעבור threats and complete their mission to off themselves. What could be more of a threat to their spot in olam habba than defending their homeland against Hamas savages?
Think of it, more holy קברים for their Chareidi cronies to wail over. They won’t even have to travel to Uman for their annual kvetchathon.
Such a vitriolic comment could only issue from someone who hates Torah period. People who love Torah would not speak in this way even of those whose viewpoint they totally disagree with. I suggest you tone down the malicious animosity. I speak as one who disagrees with the charedi viewpoint and has children in the battlefield but your tone is beyond the pale, although on this site it seems nothing is beyond the pale
I applaud the unselfishness that you and your brave children exhibit for their life-risking self- sacrifice to repulse and destroy the savages that attacked your homeland. I support Israel financially but if I were of the right age I’d join your children in defense of the country.
Your observation that I hate Torah is perplexing. I don’t hate Torah, I may dislike many of its preposterous precepts and prohibitions but I don’t hate it, much as I dislike sunburn. A moderate measure is OK but to much will lead to skin cancer and who knows what else.
The very same Torah that you so cherish is the exact same foundation that uber-chareidism manipulates and corrupts to their venal objective — institutionalizing parasitism and the dismantling of the secular Zionist State. So, please excuse me if I notice something very weird and dangerous about your fundamentalist religion. If they were only 2% of the Israeli population, I would say go knock yourselves out with whatever motivates you to deceive yourselves. As long as you don’t scare the horses as they used to say in the early automobile days. But they’re not. Today they approach 20% of the population and their demographics are an existential threat to Israel. Presently there are bills in the Knesset with the support of the Likud coalition to exempt uber-chreidism from military service. You seem not too worried about the folks who risk life and limb, create technological business marvels, and protect and run the country. They will decide no longer to be steam-rolled by Daas Torah Chareidism. Demographically, they will become the dominant political force and the chilonim will emigrate to countries that apply equal demands on their citizenry. You won’t have enough personnel to defend the country. But then again, you won’t need a military because Hashem will defend your country if you just learn Torah long and hard enough. ( Seems that no one can reach that magreda -I guess churban bayis rishon, shaynee and the Holocaust evidenced that. )
So were my comments vitriolic? I suppose they were but no less caustic than the Uber-Gedolim who rant in opposition to the welfare of the State.
One of the most offensive things about many chareidim is that they have the arrogance to believe that opposition or I'll will towards them ia rooted in hatred of the Torah or even hakadosh Baruch hu racmana litzlan. You can't entirtain the possibility that it is rooted in a love of Torah and HKBH that makes it so painful to see such profound distortion of Torah and chillul hashem
"Demographically, they will become the dominant political force, and the Chiloni will emigrate to countries that apply equal demands on their citizens."
Not sure you're reading "The Times" right. The Chiloni will not leave, as the world has turned on us, and they won’t go. Don’t you hear the slogan in their demonstrations: "We have nowhere to go"?
If you think they will roll over and let the Charedim with the rabbis trample over them, you’ve got it wrong again. They will pick up weapons and fight again for the land their fathers spilled blood for.
Go into any Chiloni neighborhood and look at those who went to the army. See their demeanor—look closely and see if you can imagine them lying down to be trampled on.
It won't happen in the near future, as they don’t see their country being lost. But eventually, the Yarden will flow with blood. That slogan was premature."
I’m being dishonest for calling out their annual Unman sojourn? Calling them out for abandoning their wives and children on the holiest and most reverential day for Orthodoxy is skullduggery? Hashem might allocate a special pleading for you if it’s perfected in Ukraine? Can’t consummate your supplications for a lottery jackpot in Yerushalayim — only Uman will raise you to that madrega?
And if you really need to recite a Tikun Haklalis, take a cold shower instead.
now you're entering the dark world of השפלה about a legitimate community of ירא שמיים. Jesting about their extremes is one thing. But this is outright לשון הרע. "Abandoning"?? "Lottery"?? I won't even touch on your last poison.
I continue to be tickled by the verbal games you choose to let off steam, but besmirching entire communities led by תלמידי חכמים is going too far.
Any community whose “תלמידי חכמים” don’t inveigh against married men abandoning their wives and children for a ימים נראים mystical paroxysm in Ukraine aren’t much of
תלמידי כחמים.
Uman Ukraine? A city in close proximity to the war with neighboring Russia.
You don’t like “abandon” description of these whacko chareidim/chasidim? How about desert or walk out on your family?
21 killed in Russian missile attack on Ukraine’s Uman
Israeli ambassador denounces deadly strike on Ukrainian city that houses Hasidic rabbi's gravesite, noting its 'special religious and cultural meaning for Jews around the world'
By AP and TOI STAFF
28 April 2023, 8:45 pm
ושמרתם את נפשתכם seems not to be part of your Torah.
Even Simon-Shoshan can't help himself. He writes: "It should be clear, this is not about whether serious, full-time yeshivah students should be exempted from the draft. Neither is it about legitimate concerns regarding the religious challenges of serving in the IDF."
No, sorry, once he concedes that, he's lost the argument. Yes, it *should* be about drafting "serious, full-time" yada yada. No, such concerns are *not* "legitimate" and shouldn't come up.
By the way, Hauer has been writing stuff like this for over a year. You can take the boy out of Ner Yisrael....
I had the same criticism but I spoke to him and it turns out that he just didn't express himself clearly. He doesn't disagree that such people should be drafted - he was trying to say that even from the charedi perspective, this is not what it's about.
Ah, that's different. I suppose he could have been clearer, though, because a *lot* of people do sound like that. And personally I don't think much is to be gained by allowing for their assumptions, but that's up to him.
Here's an example: This new "reservist" party that's supposed to be the savior of all of us. (I have no doubt polls will start to appear giving them 25 seats.) Their answer to the charedi issue? Draft them, sure, but leave "1%...2%..."
No. Your only proper starting point- and finishing point- both for moral as well as practical reasons, is 0%.
It seems that my letter could have been written more clearly. My only point was they did not want to get into an argument about these issues because they are irrelevant. That is that if the draft exemption were limited to those who are truly learning maybe 30% of those currently claiming to be learning would be exempted. We would not be in the current crisis.Mthe chareidim would like you to believe that these are the issues at stake. They never have been but in the past year or so they have thrown down the mask and made it clear that the claims about Talmud Torah are just a front. I was attempting to engage those like rabbi hauer who believe the propaganda and therefore think that the charedim have legitimate concerns and positions.
Yup and people (including religious Zionist soldiers) go along with it. Because otherwise LEFTISTS will be in control of the government. Oy vey. As if Bennetts government was so bad.
Need I remind you what leftist governments have given us?
Today the leftists will be out in the street claiming that the most important thing for a democracy is an unaccountable secret police. You still OK with that?
Sometimes people consider all factors and make a- what's the word?- ah, yes, *rational* decision.
No absolutely not you are losing it totally. Even the inverted commas are derogatory. You can argue with them, polemicize until tomorrow, but in the end they are Torah giants with a different view from yours. A little humility wouldn't hurt
I disagree with your assumption that the chareidi "gedolim" are torah giants. As the mishna in avot (3:17) states אִם אֵין דֶּרֶךְ אֶרֶץ, אֵין תּוֹרָה.
And you have the hubris to decide that they lack דרך ארץ simply because they don't share your rationalist Weltanschauung? There are so many different interpretations of דרך ארץ but the most basic one is respectfulness, good manners. I believe that respecting gedolim (without inverted commas) may not mean agreeing with them but does not allow us to belittle their Torah knowledge and acuity. I may not be a Lubavitcher or a Tzanzer, I may argue forcefully with Satmar and I may not accept the Lithuanian interpretation of Torah life but I respect these giants for their significant Torah accomplishments
"A little humility wouldn't hurt". You are referring to the Gedolim no doubt if I understand you correctly ?
After all Moshe Rabenu our greatest leader and arguably the most significant religious leader the world has ever known (counting his significance recognised by Moslems and Christians - probably in total 40% + of all humanity)) was recognised by the Almighty as the most humble as (possibly) his most outstanding characteristic. - not his law giving which has impacted on all humanity. We see what the Almighty values.
So where is the haros hatov to the soldiers for protecting them and saving them from the dangerous and arduous effort of protecting klal yisroel ? And to pre-pempt an objection; my understanding is that a keli used as an aid or utensil for kedushah has to be treated with respect e.g. batim for tefillin. One cannot say that was its purpose and therefore we can treat it dismissively.
whatever your feelings about the lack of hakoras hatov there is no place for a prayer ולמלשינים against the gedolim, this just proves how right they are to barricade the charedim in when such ridiculous notions are appearing in what is an apparently religious site. The humility should come from us, not presuming we understand every consideration they have and then lambasting them as if they are our peers
As rav Lichtenstein argued towards the end of his life. These people are at best תלמידי חכמים שאין בהם דעת. Who chazal say are worse than a טריפה או נבלה. they know all of-ש"ס ופסקים but they are endangering the entire Jewish population of the land of Israel and creating a chilul hashem of epic proportions. Many of these rabbis do not even behave publicly in a way that suggests that they are any great בעלי מידות. You cannot defend their positions on the basis of anything that resembles coherent halakhic argumentation or rational engagement with the empirical facts. perhaps the core principle of chareism since it's inception some 250 years ago has been separation from and delegitization of the rest of Klal yisrael. Including those who are שומר תורה ומצות but are not fun unsers. This has been taken to its extreme conclusion in recent years. Convince that they alone represent the true essence of Kal yisroel, they have effectively left did you wish people. They insist that they are at war with the Jewish state at a time that Hamas Hezbollah and the Iranians are actively at war with us. It may not be your intent but de facto by refusing to participate in the war effort because you claim to be at war with us you are in effect fighting for the other side.
I suppose somewhere out there there exists a Jew for Jesus who actually was educated Jewishly and/or is Jewishly knowledgeable. I just have yet to see any evidence of it. Scratch them just a bit and you realize that they are all either born Christians or, if born Jewish, completely ignorant of Judaism. This guy drops hints as to his ignorance right and left. Whether he was actually born Jewish I have no idea, but I have my doubts.
Of course, this served those who had to debate such people in the Middle Ages, like the Ramban, very well: Some amhaaretz would convert and convince the Church he was a talmid chacham; they'd eat it up and force the local gadol to debate him, and said gadol would proceed to mop the floor with the guy.
There's a new as campaign called Holy Chutzpah (holy-chutzpah.com) that is advertising on Matzav and YWN against funding Yeshivos that kick out boys who join the IDF. Theres already a huge backlash, so I suspect this campaign will be removed by those sites. Curious if you had anything to do with it.
Big expensive billboards (paid for by whom?) have been put up across Israel declaring that "the draft evasion law is sticking a knife in the back of the fighters". This is in reference to a proposed law that would facilitate yeshiva students being exempt from Israel Death Factory servitude (a.k.a "IDF service").
You know what's really a knife in the back of fighters?
Getting upwards of 20,000 Jewish soldiers maimed and killed in Gaza, ostensibly for the sake of freeing hostages, then making absurdly lopsided "deals" anyway that all but guarantee we’ll do this rodeo again. That’s a knife in the back.
Proclaiming over and over that "victory" means the utter defeat of Hamas, then freeing thousands of Hamas fighters that you paid so bitterly to capture, and admitting that Hamas somehow replenished all their losses in the "war". That’s a knife in the back.
Misleading religious Zionist suckers that they were fighting to resettle land they'd previously been evicted from, then cynically having them capture a target and pull back, over and over again like a yo-yo — each time paying with blood and limbs. That’s a knife in the back.
Ordering Jews into death traps, threatening them with all sorts of persecution if they refuse, while pretending there was a justifiable operational objective and it needed to be done specifically this way. That’s a knife in the back.
Prosecuting Jewish fighters for not being gentle enough with their enemies, a favor that is never returned when the shoe is on the other foot. That’s a knife in the back.
Raising taxes even more, ostensibly to pay for the war, driving even more people on the brink of poverty into the abyss. Meanwhile, Jewish soldiers needed worldwide fundraising to be fed and outfitted with the basics, while Gaza/Hamas got truckloads of supplies from Israel every day for free. That’s a knife in the back.
Doing all this and more, then conditioning these pitiful brainwashed suckers to direct all their anger at yeshiva students instead. They're the enemy. They're the existential threat. It's all their fault. Hate them with all you've got.
And you take the bait, too, blaming yeshiva students for all the above and more. If only they paid more taxes. If only they received fewer benefits (or none at all!). If only they “sacrificed” like you. If only they all just left the country. If only they would just die. Then it would all be better.
And it drives you crazy that the goyim irrationally blame everything on you and hate you no matter what. You bemoan the unreasonable double standards, the obsession with hating you like no one else, the twisting of reality to always portray you as the villain, the lumping of everyone into one box, the insane justifications when people commit atrocities against you, and so much more.
You shower everyone with love and tolerance, slavishly yearning for their friendship and support, but the Jew who looks different and thinks differently and doesn’t sacrifice his body and soul for your false god — you’re consumed with hatred for him, especially for him, only for him.
A group of 'self-appointed rabbis and halachic decisors' who were never elected to any rabbinical position in any community and are therefore forbidden to issue halachic rulings, are dividing the Jewish people and "issuing rulings" on matters of life and death. They "rule" even for those who are not students of their yeshivas and for every observant Jew! Who do they think they are??? They do this without investigating the reality on which they are "ruling" and without providing any halachic source for their "rulings."
Yes some of them are great halachic authorities and have published far more than you on Torah. They don't owe you any explanation, since the beginning of the state the charedim have claimed that the army is detrimental for religious Jews and they don't believe in its efforts to try and change that. Agree or disagree with them, there's no chiddush here
Multiple errors in your statements:
(1) Since the beginning of the Zionist movement, particularly anti-Zionist Hasidic leaders (admorim) claimed that under every tree in Israel stands a prostitute. Based on this claim, a certain rebbe forbade relatives from immigrating to Israel during the Holocaust. They did not come and were murdered. He, however, left Europe that very night with the help of 'Zionists,' and thus his family was saved. So you are mistaken. The claim is not about the army but about the Holy Land.
(2) Second error: The claim that the army is unsuitable for observant Jews is new and did not exist until recently.
(3) Incorrect claim: Until Menachem Begin rose to power, most Haredim served in the army. For example, in the early 1970s, I did basic training in a Haredi artillery unit. At the same time, there was also combat training for Haredim in armored and Nahal units. Serving alongside me in the platoon were Haredim who today are heads of yeshivas and city rabbis. So you are not being accurate, to say the least.
(5) Incorrect claim: It is the obligation of every rabbi who publishes a halachic ruling to explain his decision thoroughly and to demonstrate why opposing rulings are problematic.
(6) The very claim that because the outcome of rescuing Jews from rape, kidnapping, and murder might be halachically problematic, it is therefore forbidden to rescue them, does not exist in any halachic book to this day.
(7) You claim that Haredi rabbis do not believe they can change the nature of the army. Are they human? Does their lack of faith justify rape? Murder? Kidnapping?
I ask this question many times - what happens when the chloni says he also does not want to serve. he joins an on line yeshiva, hangs around and enjoys life. What can you do to him, he is registered in a yeshiva. Most people proceed to scratch their nose while trying to cough up some silly argument
In other words we have a VOLUNTEER ARMY. You cant say so and so is exempt and not others doing the same thing.
Does Israel survive with a volunteer army.?
This is simply not the case. Online yeshivas cannot give exemptions. You have to be enrolled in real bricks and mortar yeshiva that is approved by the army and ministry of education. Only traditional yeshivot are approved. The claim that we have a volunteer army is completely false.
1) Anti-Zionist Chasidim have nothing to do with the Sephardi Jews many of whom were in the holy land before the state. The claim in the letter is that the IDF is not a place for observant Jews- and if they are at a certain level of observance, that claim is still true (until maybe Chashmonaim proves otherwise)
2) The claim has existed as long as the IDF has been an educational "melting pot" for brainwashing people, and this has existed for decades, as I saw in the 90s in my own-charedi-unit
3) Maybe in the 70s you had a haven but there were many other units where religion was belittled. The Hesder units were separate but even they wouldn't have been appropriate for a die-hard charedi
4) Your biggest mistake is that this is not a halachic ruling its a letter of chizuk to a guy who is a Baal Teshuva who went to study in yeshiva and was thrown into jail. Thus your claim that they need to explain their decision is moot.
5) The rabbis are not claiming that its forbidden to rescue Jews- far from it. They are stating that every truly observant Jew (not just one who is religious but one who wants to keep all 613 with no compromises) there are problems with service. There are numerous halachic issues which arise in IDF service- Kol Isha, Machana Kadosh, Lo Taturu, yichud etc. (Again, maybe Chashmonaim will solve these problems but this must be proved)
6) The IDF is not going to modify to accommodate the needs of every charedi. The Chashmonaim cannot go to mikveh- for some this is obligatory everyday- and the kashrus issues are also complex, as the IDF can't cater to every kashrus. There is so much else problematic - a secular commander endangering soldiers either for personal glory or for wrong moral reasons like saving enemy children. I can't believe people dismiss these complexities simply because "the army needs charedim"
7) I am the father of five sons who have all served in some form in the IDF and a sixth who is due to join soon, I have no qualms about their service and BH they are all frum but except for one (who did civil service) they are far from charedi and the IDF has some part in that. Anyone who thinks you go in and come out exactly the same -if you were charedi beforehand- is wearing blinders
"but except for one (who did civil service) they are far from charedi."
To be honest, given the horrifically selfish, destructive and self-destructive hashkafa of charedi society, you should be relieved.
There is no way they can "keep all 613 mitzvot with no compromises" by not serving. They are keeping some they decide to prioritize, while totally ignoring others like "לא תעמוד על דם רעך"
Not to mention corrupting Torah values like hakarat hatov.
"the kashrus issues are also complex"
Are they really? Is one obligated to follow every little idiosyncratic stringency in every situation?
"The Chashmonaim cannot go to mikveh- for some this is obligatory everyday"
Are you sure that there are no exceptions to this? Every day? Never ever ever an exception?
Since when does going to the mikvah take precedence to saving lives…??
Ok, but Chashmonaim was set up to meet the Chareidim's terms. Some Chareidim only enlisted for that reason. Then the IDF didn't make good on their promise (at least so far). This is a blow to the IDF's credibility as now Chareidim whose resistance was weakening are worrying what will be in the future.
" The claim has existed as long as the IDF has been an educational "melting pot" for brainwashing people, and this has existed for decades, as I saw in the 90s in my own-charedi-unit"
"Brainwashing", in the informal sense that you use the term, is not likely to effective against individuals with even a minor training in independent thinking. Whether it's effective against those who have been brainwashed not to think critically is another question.
"melting pot"
What a load of twaddle. You think we've got a melting pot? Have you seen the amount of political parties- including those that don't make the cut, and those which have appeared and disappeared? If there was a coherent Israeli identity, somehow magically formed by a few years in the IDF, we'd have a more stable government which wouldn't need to bribe the Charedi parties for its survival. You find me another country of some 10 million that is as varied in identity as Israel!
Thank you for the detailed response.
However, I remain in my position that this move is deliberately targeted against the State of Israel and does not stem from religious issues. Why?
Because there is a serious problem in Haredi society of people leaving this way of life, and there is no treatment or conclusions drawn from it. Hence, the issue of abandoning Haredi life does not seem to trouble those rabbis.
How do we know this?
For example, the lack of rabbinic response to what happened this year on Pourim in Williamsburg.
According to a survey conducted by the Central Bureau of Statistics in 2018, about 13% of Haredim reported that they no longer define themselves as Haredi. But, no Haredi response.
Even without a survey, the election results for Ashkenazi Haredi parties show that a very large percentage of Haredi society does not identify with the Haredi world itself. How do we see this? By the consistent number of Ashkenazi Haredi members of Knesset. In the 1960s, there were 5-6, and today there are 6-7. This is despite the fact that since the 1980s, a Haredi family has had between 2X and 3X more children than a religious-Zionist family and 4X more than the general population. For comparison: in the 1960s, there were about 12 members of Knesset from the Mizrachi (religious-Zionist) party. If we count knitted kippot and women’s head coverings in the Knesset today, we reach 32-36, three times more than in the 1960s.
The conclusion from all these numbers is that the religious-Zionist lifestyle maintains its members' adherence to religious observance better than the Haredi lifestyle maintains Haredi identity. This fact does not seem to trouble the Haredi rabbinic leadership at all. Therefore, their argument that it is specifically the Haredi in the army that concerns them is very problematic, to say the least.
I don't think you can judge from people's political opinions about the size of their communities. The reason for the lack of growth of Ashkenazi charedi party stem from numerous reasons: 1) a large body of extremists who won't vote at all i.e. Jerusalem faction, Eda Charedis and other malcontents 2) many Ashkenazim are so disgusted by the infighting in the poorly named Agudas Yisrael that they prefer Shas or Ben Gvir 3) many Charedim vote Likud to try and influence party decisions.
The Ashkenazi charedim are actually the fastest growing sector and make up about half or more of the estimated 1.2 million charedim in Israel.
As for the religious Zionist MKs many are supported by traditional and secular Jews. Currently the attrition rate from the RZ community is way higher than 13% and probably closer to 30%, but many still vote for theie parent party
> a secular commander endangering soldiers either for personal glory or for wrong moral reasons like saving enemy children. I can't believe people dismiss these complexities simply because "the army needs charedim"
Important pt
I would appreciate your help: Who appointed these rabbis as rabbis of the Jewish people, such that they are permitted to issue rulings for Israel?
I would appreciate your help: What are the halachic books that these rabbis wrote? Who and where refers to their halachic rulings? Since when have they been issuing rulings for the entire Jewish world, and why is everyone accepting their decisions?
Note the relatively small number of conscientious objectors the US had during WW2 compared to the size of the military then.
https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/conscientious-objectors-civilian-public-service
Even with nearly total conscription of those eligible, the US still had to import hundreds of thousands of guest workers from Mexico, mostly for agricultural work, as the farm workers almost all either volunteered or were drafted into the US military. (Mexico was an actual ally -- it declared war on Germany, Italy, and Japan in May 1942 -- but did not impose conscription and only one Mexican air squadron actually saw combat. My late father in law was one of the US volunteers from a farm family, enlisting in the Marines the week after Pearl Harbor. Interestingly his two daughters would both be born in Mexico.)
Interestingly, the charedim- apart I guess from the very extremes- never claim anything like conscientious objection. (In this case it would have to be something like, "I don't believe in the State for religious reasons.") I imagine a big part of that is because it would make them look really, really bad. It is of course the *actual* reason, stripped of all pretense.
But in any event, Israel doesn't allow for conscientious objectors. It throws them (usually left-wing peaceniks) in jail.
It's not the actual reason! They totally want an army! They just don't want to be in it.
Oh, of course! They want an army so they can be protected. (And of course the leftist pacifists want an army too. Indeed, almost all of them *do* serve. The head of Peace Now has even talked about how he's done miluim in the Shomron, and how nice the "settlers" are to him.) They don't think it necessarily has to be an *Israeli* army. (That no other army would protect them is something they haven't thought about. I still remember Avi Shafran's infamous line that it makes no difference to him "what flag flies over the Kosel" in which he failed to acknowledge that if that flag was anything other than the Israeli one he wouldn't be able to go to the Kotel.)
The question then is *why* they don't want to be in it. The most obvious answer is that being in an army is hard work at best and dangerous to one's life at worst. That and the fact that the government tells them they're exempt just comes together for non-service without much thought.
But I'm still convinced that a major part of it remains that they just still haven't made their peace with the fact that the State of Israel exists, and even more so, that they are a part of it. If you don't feel that you're part of Israeli society, and you kinda sorta don't really believe in this whole "State" thing in the first place, why serve?
Of course this is still silly: You serve because you're protecting people regardless of whatever the political entity is. But that's their thoughts- if they ever bother to think them through.
"they just still haven't made their peace with the fact that the State of Israel exists,"
But they have made their peace with גלות.
But more seriously, you are partially correct. Sovereignty was not supposed to be restored before the messianic era. Sure, the Rambam paskened that one should not make definitive statements about the messianic era beyond vague generalities, but who listens?
But more relevant is that the State, and other aspects of post-ghetto life, introduce real challenges, halachic and hashkafic. Can one step out of the ghetto without some real courageous problem solving skills? And that's stepping out of the ghetto into the wider world. Add to that a sovereign State and you've got real dilemmas.
So the answer is, שב ועל תעשה, we shall keep our ghetto (and it will be supported and sustained by those outside of it.) and avoid all these conundrums. Hence the cries of "we didn't ask for a State!". They really mean it.
(Speculation: It should come as no surprise that this sort of thinking is particularly pronounced in the Lithuanian world with its tendency to rely on Brisker lomdus with its theoretical abstractions & diffidence when it comes to coming to a practical conclusions.)
"Sovereignty was not supposed to be restored before the messianic era"
Huh, I wonder what they think Chanukah is all about. Something to do with Torah Shebeal Peh, I think.
This behavior resembles that of the antisemitic Christian Church throughout history towards the Jews. They call themselves "Israel," while we, the descendants of the Children of Israel who left Egypt and received the Torah at Mount Sinai, do not belong to the people of God.
But beware, among these antisemitic Christians, there were not a few Jews who converted to Christianity
The film The disputation of Barcelona has a Jewish convert disputer against Ramban who angrily enables the Ramban to make the case for Judaism. Odd haircuts
I’m waiting for these Torah True chareidi freeloaders to make good on their יהרוג ואל יעבור threats and complete their mission to off themselves. What could be more of a threat to their spot in olam habba than defending their homeland against Hamas savages?
Think of it, more holy קברים for their Chareidi cronies to wail over. They won’t even have to travel to Uman for their annual kvetchathon.
Such a vitriolic comment could only issue from someone who hates Torah period. People who love Torah would not speak in this way even of those whose viewpoint they totally disagree with. I suggest you tone down the malicious animosity. I speak as one who disagrees with the charedi viewpoint and has children in the battlefield but your tone is beyond the pale, although on this site it seems nothing is beyond the pale
@Yoel Domb,
I applaud the unselfishness that you and your brave children exhibit for their life-risking self- sacrifice to repulse and destroy the savages that attacked your homeland. I support Israel financially but if I were of the right age I’d join your children in defense of the country.
Your observation that I hate Torah is perplexing. I don’t hate Torah, I may dislike many of its preposterous precepts and prohibitions but I don’t hate it, much as I dislike sunburn. A moderate measure is OK but to much will lead to skin cancer and who knows what else.
The very same Torah that you so cherish is the exact same foundation that uber-chareidism manipulates and corrupts to their venal objective — institutionalizing parasitism and the dismantling of the secular Zionist State. So, please excuse me if I notice something very weird and dangerous about your fundamentalist religion. If they were only 2% of the Israeli population, I would say go knock yourselves out with whatever motivates you to deceive yourselves. As long as you don’t scare the horses as they used to say in the early automobile days. But they’re not. Today they approach 20% of the population and their demographics are an existential threat to Israel. Presently there are bills in the Knesset with the support of the Likud coalition to exempt uber-chreidism from military service. You seem not too worried about the folks who risk life and limb, create technological business marvels, and protect and run the country. They will decide no longer to be steam-rolled by Daas Torah Chareidism. Demographically, they will become the dominant political force and the chilonim will emigrate to countries that apply equal demands on their citizenry. You won’t have enough personnel to defend the country. But then again, you won’t need a military because Hashem will defend your country if you just learn Torah long and hard enough. ( Seems that no one can reach that magreda -I guess churban bayis rishon, shaynee and the Holocaust evidenced that. )
So were my comments vitriolic? I suppose they were but no less caustic than the Uber-Gedolim who rant in opposition to the welfare of the State.
One of the most offensive things about many chareidim is that they have the arrogance to believe that opposition or I'll will towards them ia rooted in hatred of the Torah or even hakadosh Baruch hu racmana litzlan. You can't entirtain the possibility that it is rooted in a love of Torah and HKBH that makes it so painful to see such profound distortion of Torah and chillul hashem
Or in recognizing that charedim are an existential threat to the country.
"Demographically, they will become the dominant political force, and the Chiloni will emigrate to countries that apply equal demands on their citizens."
Not sure you're reading "The Times" right. The Chiloni will not leave, as the world has turned on us, and they won’t go. Don’t you hear the slogan in their demonstrations: "We have nowhere to go"?
If you think they will roll over and let the Charedim with the rabbis trample over them, you’ve got it wrong again. They will pick up weapons and fight again for the land their fathers spilled blood for.
Go into any Chiloni neighborhood and look at those who went to the army. See their demeanor—look closely and see if you can imagine them lying down to be trampled on.
It won't happen in the near future, as they don’t see their country being lost. But eventually, the Yarden will flow with blood. That slogan was premature."
יישר כוחך, Yoel. Still - you must give her credit for creativity for "kvetchathon"!
I am very far from Breslov and Uman but calling all of their impassioned Tikkun Haklalis and prayers a kvetchathon is creative skullduggery
@Yoel Domb,
I’m being dishonest for calling out their annual Unman sojourn? Calling them out for abandoning their wives and children on the holiest and most reverential day for Orthodoxy is skullduggery? Hashem might allocate a special pleading for you if it’s perfected in Ukraine? Can’t consummate your supplications for a lottery jackpot in Yerushalayim — only Uman will raise you to that madrega?
And if you really need to recite a Tikun Haklalis, take a cold shower instead.
Some Tikun Haklalis you’ve got there!
now you're entering the dark world of השפלה about a legitimate community of ירא שמיים. Jesting about their extremes is one thing. But this is outright לשון הרע. "Abandoning"?? "Lottery"?? I won't even touch on your last poison.
I continue to be tickled by the verbal games you choose to let off steam, but besmirching entire communities led by תלמידי חכמים is going too far.
@Yaacov Bar Chaiim,
Any community whose “תלמידי חכמים” don’t inveigh against married men abandoning their wives and children for a ימים נראים mystical paroxysm in Ukraine aren’t much of
תלמידי כחמים.
Uman Ukraine? A city in close proximity to the war with neighboring Russia.
You don’t like “abandon” description of these whacko chareidim/chasidim? How about desert or walk out on your family?
21 killed in Russian missile attack on Ukraine’s Uman
Israeli ambassador denounces deadly strike on Ukrainian city that houses Hasidic rabbi's gravesite, noting its 'special religious and cultural meaning for Jews around the world'
By AP and TOI STAFF
28 April 2023, 8:45 pm
ושמרתם את נפשתכם seems not to be part of your Torah.
agreed. Stillll... great word : )
... משנכנס אדר
@ Yaacov Bar Chaim,
ש׳כח !! Ah gezint oyf dein pippick
Even Simon-Shoshan can't help himself. He writes: "It should be clear, this is not about whether serious, full-time yeshivah students should be exempted from the draft. Neither is it about legitimate concerns regarding the religious challenges of serving in the IDF."
No, sorry, once he concedes that, he's lost the argument. Yes, it *should* be about drafting "serious, full-time" yada yada. No, such concerns are *not* "legitimate" and shouldn't come up.
By the way, Hauer has been writing stuff like this for over a year. You can take the boy out of Ner Yisrael....
I had the same criticism but I spoke to him and it turns out that he just didn't express himself clearly. He doesn't disagree that such people should be drafted - he was trying to say that even from the charedi perspective, this is not what it's about.
Ah, that's different. I suppose he could have been clearer, though, because a *lot* of people do sound like that. And personally I don't think much is to be gained by allowing for their assumptions, but that's up to him.
Here's an example: This new "reservist" party that's supposed to be the savior of all of us. (I have no doubt polls will start to appear giving them 25 seats.) Their answer to the charedi issue? Draft them, sure, but leave "1%...2%..."
No. Your only proper starting point- and finishing point- both for moral as well as practical reasons, is 0%.
It seems that my letter could have been written more clearly. My only point was they did not want to get into an argument about these issues because they are irrelevant. That is that if the draft exemption were limited to those who are truly learning maybe 30% of those currently claiming to be learning would be exempted. We would not be in the current crisis.Mthe chareidim would like you to believe that these are the issues at stake. They never have been but in the past year or so they have thrown down the mask and made it clear that the claims about Talmud Torah are just a front. I was attempting to engage those like rabbi hauer who believe the propaganda and therefore think that the charedim have legitimate concerns and positions.
Didn't Moshe Tzuriel go to Ner Yisrael?
"Although I’m not sure if we even deserve it."
I'm thinking of haShem's instructions to Israel, for claiming the conditional gift of Eretz Yisrael -- essentially:
. . . You'll have to fight for it, but I'll make sure you win.
The haredim seem to have forgotten the first requirement . . . or they don't think that the Torah model applies to the current situation.
Perhaps a people that can't muster enough troops to stop its opponents, _doesn't_ deserve to win. But you're mostly preaching to the converted, here.
"you're mostly preaching to the converted, here"
There's still a few of us who cringe and sigh about how entrenched his cynicism is
Behoukosai my bar mitzvah aka Leviticus 26.3. Check it out I have been rocked by this since May 30 1965.
Yup and people (including religious Zionist soldiers) go along with it. Because otherwise LEFTISTS will be in control of the government. Oy vey. As if Bennetts government was so bad.
Need I remind you what leftist governments have given us?
Today the leftists will be out in the street claiming that the most important thing for a democracy is an unaccountable secret police. You still OK with that?
Sometimes people consider all factors and make a- what's the word?- ah, yes, *rational* decision.
Then don't whine about the consequences.
What did Bennet's government give us? A pogrom? Oh wait......
Who doesn't whine about the consequences? The people screaming in the streets?
I wasn't talking about Bennett. (Lapid, on the other hand, gave us a "peace deal" with Lebanon.) Israelis still remember the Second Intifada.
Like it or not, a lot of Israelis think and then say, "Yeah, that was bad. Could have been worse."
Can we/should we have the chareidi "gedolim" in mind when praying וְלַמַּלְשִׁינִים?
No absolutely not you are losing it totally. Even the inverted commas are derogatory. You can argue with them, polemicize until tomorrow, but in the end they are Torah giants with a different view from yours. A little humility wouldn't hurt
I disagree with your assumption that the chareidi "gedolim" are torah giants. As the mishna in avot (3:17) states אִם אֵין דֶּרֶךְ אֶרֶץ, אֵין תּוֹרָה.
And you have the hubris to decide that they lack דרך ארץ simply because they don't share your rationalist Weltanschauung? There are so many different interpretations of דרך ארץ but the most basic one is respectfulness, good manners. I believe that respecting gedolim (without inverted commas) may not mean agreeing with them but does not allow us to belittle their Torah knowledge and acuity. I may not be a Lubavitcher or a Tzanzer, I may argue forcefully with Satmar and I may not accept the Lithuanian interpretation of Torah life but I respect these giants for their significant Torah accomplishments
"A little humility wouldn't hurt". You are referring to the Gedolim no doubt if I understand you correctly ?
After all Moshe Rabenu our greatest leader and arguably the most significant religious leader the world has ever known (counting his significance recognised by Moslems and Christians - probably in total 40% + of all humanity)) was recognised by the Almighty as the most humble as (possibly) his most outstanding characteristic. - not his law giving which has impacted on all humanity. We see what the Almighty values.
So where is the haros hatov to the soldiers for protecting them and saving them from the dangerous and arduous effort of protecting klal yisroel ? And to pre-pempt an objection; my understanding is that a keli used as an aid or utensil for kedushah has to be treated with respect e.g. batim for tefillin. One cannot say that was its purpose and therefore we can treat it dismissively.
whatever your feelings about the lack of hakoras hatov there is no place for a prayer ולמלשינים against the gedolim, this just proves how right they are to barricade the charedim in when such ridiculous notions are appearing in what is an apparently religious site. The humility should come from us, not presuming we understand every consideration they have and then lambasting them as if they are our peers
The ones who go to foreign governments to complain about Israel are the very definition of who that bracha was written for.
As rav Lichtenstein argued towards the end of his life. These people are at best תלמידי חכמים שאין בהם דעת. Who chazal say are worse than a טריפה או נבלה. they know all of-ש"ס ופסקים but they are endangering the entire Jewish population of the land of Israel and creating a chilul hashem of epic proportions. Many of these rabbis do not even behave publicly in a way that suggests that they are any great בעלי מידות. You cannot defend their positions on the basis of anything that resembles coherent halakhic argumentation or rational engagement with the empirical facts. perhaps the core principle of chareism since it's inception some 250 years ago has been separation from and delegitization of the rest of Klal yisrael. Including those who are שומר תורה ומצות but are not fun unsers. This has been taken to its extreme conclusion in recent years. Convince that they alone represent the true essence of Kal yisroel, they have effectively left did you wish people. They insist that they are at war with the Jewish state at a time that Hamas Hezbollah and the Iranians are actively at war with us. It may not be your intent but de facto by refusing to participate in the war effort because you claim to be at war with us you are in effect fighting for the other side.
Natan,
Please remove Edward Nathan Schwarz, he is a Jew for Jesus. They are quite an irrational bunch, no sense in having any conversation with them.
I suppose somewhere out there there exists a Jew for Jesus who actually was educated Jewishly and/or is Jewishly knowledgeable. I just have yet to see any evidence of it. Scratch them just a bit and you realize that they are all either born Christians or, if born Jewish, completely ignorant of Judaism. This guy drops hints as to his ignorance right and left. Whether he was actually born Jewish I have no idea, but I have my doubts.
Of course, this served those who had to debate such people in the Middle Ages, like the Ramban, very well: Some amhaaretz would convert and convince the Church he was a talmid chacham; they'd eat it up and force the local gadol to debate him, and said gadol would proceed to mop the floor with the guy.
There's a new as campaign called Holy Chutzpah (holy-chutzpah.com) that is advertising on Matzav and YWN against funding Yeshivos that kick out boys who join the IDF. Theres already a huge backlash, so I suspect this campaign will be removed by those sites. Curious if you had anything to do with it.
Things must be bad as you didn't comment on daf yomi's recent mud-mouse discussion.
I’m just thinking [what in the world HaShem thinks of them. Are they actors like Hollywood actors? ]
Insane let them serve as REB’s (rear echelon bastards).
Your posts used to have actual content, more recently it's just been rant after rant.
Which of his points is factually incorrect?
Making you uncomfortable doesn’t count.
Rabbis who don't make Jews uncomfortable at least occasionally aren't doing their job!
“rant after rant”, maybe — but all well-deserved.
But does Rabbi Slifkin say here that is incorrect?
Intellectually sharp rants are quite good at triggering deep neural pathways. Nuanced, yiras shomaym critiques take a more delicate route.
@Yaacov Bar- Chaim,
What more delicate route is that?
Cut their welfare payments and then watch what happens.
Big expensive billboards (paid for by whom?) have been put up across Israel declaring that "the draft evasion law is sticking a knife in the back of the fighters". This is in reference to a proposed law that would facilitate yeshiva students being exempt from Israel Death Factory servitude (a.k.a "IDF service").
You know what's really a knife in the back of fighters?
Getting upwards of 20,000 Jewish soldiers maimed and killed in Gaza, ostensibly for the sake of freeing hostages, then making absurdly lopsided "deals" anyway that all but guarantee we’ll do this rodeo again. That’s a knife in the back.
Proclaiming over and over that "victory" means the utter defeat of Hamas, then freeing thousands of Hamas fighters that you paid so bitterly to capture, and admitting that Hamas somehow replenished all their losses in the "war". That’s a knife in the back.
Misleading religious Zionist suckers that they were fighting to resettle land they'd previously been evicted from, then cynically having them capture a target and pull back, over and over again like a yo-yo — each time paying with blood and limbs. That’s a knife in the back.
Ordering Jews into death traps, threatening them with all sorts of persecution if they refuse, while pretending there was a justifiable operational objective and it needed to be done specifically this way. That’s a knife in the back.
Prosecuting Jewish fighters for not being gentle enough with their enemies, a favor that is never returned when the shoe is on the other foot. That’s a knife in the back.
Raising taxes even more, ostensibly to pay for the war, driving even more people on the brink of poverty into the abyss. Meanwhile, Jewish soldiers needed worldwide fundraising to be fed and outfitted with the basics, while Gaza/Hamas got truckloads of supplies from Israel every day for free. That’s a knife in the back.
Doing all this and more, then conditioning these pitiful brainwashed suckers to direct all their anger at yeshiva students instead. They're the enemy. They're the existential threat. It's all their fault. Hate them with all you've got.
And you take the bait, too, blaming yeshiva students for all the above and more. If only they paid more taxes. If only they received fewer benefits (or none at all!). If only they “sacrificed” like you. If only they all just left the country. If only they would just die. Then it would all be better.
And it drives you crazy that the goyim irrationally blame everything on you and hate you no matter what. You bemoan the unreasonable double standards, the obsession with hating you like no one else, the twisting of reality to always portray you as the villain, the lumping of everyone into one box, the insane justifications when people commit atrocities against you, and so much more.
You shower everyone with love and tolerance, slavishly yearning for their friendship and support, but the Jew who looks different and thinks differently and doesn’t sacrifice his body and soul for your false god — you’re consumed with hatred for him, especially for him, only for him.
And that’s why you get stabbed in the front.