Agreed. As long as Israelis, through their government, continue to send checks, welfare benefits, tuition money, free healthcare, etc. to free-riders who refuse to contribute to the social welfare, the problem will not go away. When the money stops, the problem will be over.
The issue is will they transition fast enough to take responsibility for the welfare of the country or not. That's relying on Israel to take their word for it. Something which we don't have the reason to do given the chareidi ethos of להציל מהארי ומהדוב. I hope you are correct though but you can understand how Israelis see this as naive wishful thinking.
The worry is the far too long intermediate period where the Chareidim are large enough to create a massive financial burden but not large enough that they can reform the idf to their liking. It takes 18 years for a child to grow up and during that time it takes a whole lot of government funding to support them.
I’m sure everyone noticed the growing split between the Zionist religious right and the Haredim over military service. The Orthodox right paid in blood as much as the socialist left, and served just as long in reserve (hundred of days), while the Haredim insist they should get paid more to dodge the draft indefinitely. The Haredim no longer have the leverage over government that they traditionally had, not with Likud, and definitely not with the center left. This parasitical arrangement is coming to an end.
So, the army has created separate glatt kosher units, and if the military aged Haredim don’t show up to fill those, they should be sanctioned, hard. Carrots and sticks is how any normal society handles massive law breaking. In the end, Israel has nothing to lose. That threat they’ll leave the country? Hilarious. Every Haredi family costs an average of $35K/year in welfare and other support. If they need to leave to the US and elsewhere, tfadalu. That instantly reduces the financial burden on Israel. With less Haredim Israel also becomes more appealing as an immigration destination to more economically productive Jews from the diaspora. There is no downside to Israel insisting on even distribution of the military service burden.
I have a different solution. Or rather a workaround that I believe would lead to a long-term solution.
Let's begin with some assumptions:
1. A significant percentage of Chareidim would like to be more involved in Israeli society, be it army service, schooling, employment or Zionism. But they lack the courage/incentive to break away from their families and communities. They are not interested in "making a statement," nor do they wish to alienate their families, neighbors, friends or rabbeim.
2. It is acceptable for Chareidim to do certain public service jobs, notably, Zaka and Hatzalah.
3. While the country needs literal boots on the ground right now; long term, the country needs security forces, border control, policing, etc., i.e., non-combat positions.
With this in mind, I would propose starting--and here I must search from an appropriate word: "force" or "unit" or "division" won't work. How about--a service organization, similar to Hatzalah. It would be called Shomrim.
Just as Hatzalah started in Brooklyn in 1965, Shomrim patrols began in the 1970s in Brooklyn before spreading to other frum communities in the New York City area. Today there's a Shomrim in London and even in Teaneck! (It started there recently in light of local behavior in the wake of 10/7.) Here in the U.S. Shomrim work with local law enforcement to keep an eye on the frum community.
In Israel, United Hatzalah in Israel launched in 2006 (combining dozens of pre-existing Hatzalah organizations). today it comprises over 7,000 volunteer medics. I believe that, launched properly and with the right people at the helm, Shomrim would be seen as a kosher endeavor for boys (not girls of course!) who want to expand be useful and are not cut out for learning in yeshiva 12 hours a day.
For this to work
(a) it would have to start off small and slow
(b) it would have to stick precisely to its mission statement of assisting law enforcement. Think young men with walkie-talkies (no. not THAT kind) patrolling malls
(c) there would be no uniforms. Maybe a vest
(d) there would be some initial training in self-defense and in following a chain of command
(e) it would never ever be seen as a precursor for Chareidi army enlistment
Then. Phase two
(a) More training. Possibly how to shoot a pistol. (My feeling is that the volunteers will be asking for this before anyone has to ask them.)
(b) More responsibility. Shemirah in towns, bus stations, Holy sites.
(c) More organizational structure. Shomrim know who they report to and know who reports to them.
(d) More publicity. The branding has to be right. It has to promote Shomrim as a Chareidi enterprise, but serving the whole country. A Gemilus Chasadim initiative writ large.
Phase three
(a) More training, in line with Tzahal and/or Mishtarah
(b) Uniforms (blue not green). Titles, possibly ranks
(c) stipends
(d) credit toward Sheirut Le'umi
Ultimately, Shomrim would be a force capable of many peacetime Tzahal functions. It would be acceptable to the Chareidi community, much as Hatzalah and Zaka are. It would provide an "out" from the system for the many Chareidi boys who want, and desperately need, one. AND the next time (God forbid) Israel finds itself lacking boots-on-the-ground manpower, it would be a ready-made force that would need a far shorter time in basic training to be prepared for the real military.
If you think so. I think Chareidim would make small moves that would be a win win for them, like joining the workforce more and some sort of national service, if they didn't have to join wholesale right away. Look at American communities are doing. No threats, more progress. Slow yes.
I think I said why they didn't but I'll elaborate: They will do nothing when pushed to go from zero to a hundred. I know it's not fair, but the army won't become acceptable until working for a living does. In the US, even for the Yeshiva World, collage is not a taboo. It's not like that in Israel because people have become sheltered due to the alternative. I know so many Israeli chareidim who would love to join society, but they don't have the option with out going full scale which they are not ready for. You give them space, they'll move. It'll take a generation, but it can work. Lambasting Chareidim ain't gonna change anything. They'll retaliate and your cause will just backfire. I know it's not fair. Do you want to be right or smart?
I'm sure you know the famous vort הצילני מיד אחי מיד עשו, the biggest influence to secularize someone is not by forcing it, but by breaking the barriers.
That's a short period of time. Chareidi hashkafa has been entrenched for two centuries. Israeli Chareidi hashkafa for half a century. A year and a half can only produce a very gradual awakening but nothing immediate. Otherwise they get scared and jump back into their shells as part of their defense mechanism. To override the mechanism one needs to be more patient than that.
Some have slowly said they will make slow moves providing that no pressure or encouragement is applied. Then again, those who have slowly said so are in the process of being marginalized... and quickly.
I don't mean the leadership. If chareidim were offered a chance to partially join society with some level of contribution without having to go full scale, many would grab it and it would gradually become a norm. They might get government subsidies but many want to live better. They want to have more. Many are not looking to stay learning but are stuck and have no choice. That can change without pushing anyone, and Gedolim don't need to give a haskama. It would just be a reality. but everyone is too busy with principles to let that happen.
They same Yeshivish world but in US are much more practical and most work for a living and can actually afford to support those who learn. Letting chareidim in Israel become like that would allow them to come out of that sheltered level and society would benefit and more can help the security of Israel. But you want immediate results so nothing will happen, and more people die.
You gotta learn how to swim first. BH the DL are seasoned wit dealing with secular. Chareidim are not. It's not about good or bad chinuch, it needs to go slowly. And let it go slowly, or you can whine forever about it not happening.
BTW, I'm not sure why people are treating Chareidim with such animosity. They are תינוקות שנשבו after all, and we just need to show them love... Sounds familiar?
Hundreds of blog posts calling chareidi draft dodgers parasites will work only to the extent that it motivates hundreds of thousands of secular and patriotic Israelis to call out these draft dodgers for what they are — parasites.
When chareidi Kollel kvetchers look forward to their Friday Mitzvah Night romp and secular and Hesder soldiers come home for the weekend in body bags, perhaps you’ll understand why cowardly chareidim are so detested.
Cut off all their social funding and you’ll see how rapidly they begin to share the country’s military and economic burden.
A non-kvetcher can be as much a coward and parasite as a kvetcher. His study of Torah and Halacha should not permit him to evade military service and he should be required to join with chiloni and hesder soldiers to defend the country. Those few true scholars who are intellectually proficient in their tasks might be exempt from military service but should be required to serve the nation in other forms.
Intellectual honesty mandates that Torah study requires military service especially when existential threats menace the country.
When some leaders announce that this is a dangerous initiative, the usual suspects will whine, "Why is this different to Shomrim in America?" They will attack the leaders for their small-mindedness.
But even without reading this blog, they will know that this initiative is a precursor to the army. And the whiners will refuse to realize that these leaders have slightly clearer vision than they give them credit for.
Mr. Epstein said that he has a plan - to sneakily introduce Army service through a Shomrim patrol.
When he suggests it to the leaders, they will likely dismiss it, claiming it is a back door entrance to the Army. And the usual suspects will whine and claim, "they won't even allow public service." Yet, the leaders will know that there is a plan behind the innocent suggestion, and they will be right.
Why not take this up with Leib who advocated for a slow approach?
"precursor"
Don't be silly. Such activities, while falling far from sharing the burden, are worthwhile endeavors. They are acts of חסד and tremendous מצות, and are expressions of אחדות and communal responsibility. People should not be discouraged from doing such מצות just because someone else years later will fulfill the מצוה of defending עם ישראל and אדמת הקודש.
If you don't accept that Army service for bochurim is wrong, fine. But for the purposes of this discussion, we are dealing with people who do believe so.
Now, if you come to those people with an offer of Shomrim service, they will rightfully see it as a method of introducing Army service. "What's the problem with that?" you may say. That would be forgetting the premise of this discussion.
We once lived in a country, where we were quite successful, and elevated the country at the same time.
One day, the ruling class announced that we are invited to assist the king in building new storehouses for their massive resources. Many of us felt that we owed the country our work, and could not act like ingrates. However, there were some people, generally the more cloistered among us, who vehemently disapproved, warning us that this was a trap. We were told that this would lead to enslavement.
The Ephraims and Slifkins thought they were smarter than the cloistered group, and enthusiastically shared the burden. Those who learn from history are wiser. What happened to us? Who ended up being right?
Or the whiners are trying to condition chareidim little by little to come out of their shell and join the rest of the nation. Much of the separation comes from a lack of participation. But אחרי הפעולות נמשכים הלבבות. Give the people a little אחריות for defense, and they can learn to care about the nation. It's a way of paying for govt benefits which are by no means a privilege in any sense. The leaders will decry this but there's always a hope that the people will not listen.
So when the leaders call out these initiatives as not innocent ways for people to do good, but methods of dragging people to the army, you will agree with them. You won't complain that 'they don't even allow any community service'.
"But the situation is so bad, with so little hope for change, that we need to think about how to step up efforts to save the country from nothing less than utter destruction"
You got that part right!
Then you look to see how to fix things, you write:
"There is political campaigning. There is creating and promoting institutions that offer charedim opportunities to receive a secular education and engage in military service. There is outreach to charedim in Israel - flyers, posters, publications"
This is where you have gone wrong -
All the campaigning, offers, opportunities, outreach and all the flyers, even 10 million of them, are not getting the charediem into work or the army. Wishful thinking!!! - like all other "make nice understanding people" if only we showed them how wrong they are, how much we need them, they will enlist. Sure out of 80k we got 177 good work.
Here is how it will wor,k Make them an offer - sign up like everyone else OR it is into a cage for 5 years, and then, cant get a penny out of any government programs.
Absolutely! There have been decades of encouragement and gentle persuasion and outreach, and pleas for change. They have all failed. Doing it again won't do a farking thing. Only cutting off the money and requiring that they shoulder the same burdens as everyone else will save Israel
While I agree with the premise, I don't see your proposed solution getting off the ground.
You're basically asking for an organization whose objective is to tell people what NOT to do. There are already plenty of organizations in the United States promoting Zionism, Aliyah, Tzahal, etc. These organizations do not speak, for the most part, to (let's call them) the Lakewood yeshivish crowd. And while, yes, this crowd is thawing, possibly even warming (particularly post October 7), to the notion of Zionism, they are not, IMHO, going to respond to calls telling them to boycott "Gedolei Yisroel" from E"Y who ask them for money.
Further, I would argue, it would encourage many to give more, knowing that there is pressure in the opposite direction. In short, this would backfire.
The American chareidim (or yeshivish as they should be properly called) coming to Israel to learn in the Mir or Brisk for a year or two before marriage, and maybe for several years after, are certainly not candidates for conversion to Tzahal. They are the highest hanging fruit, not the lowest.
The best way to get Chareidi involvement in Tzahal is what I proposed on this blog several months ago. I will repost below.
Eh, maybe from the leadership, only dividing the town more. Anyway, even the most radical Lakewooder can't compare to the average Bnei Braker. I think you're getting your info from media and not real facts.
I had a friend from Lakewood and he was definitely extreme in every sense. I also have known Israeli chareidim from bnei brak, as well as anglos who integrated into the Israeli chareidi world. They both view work as a bedieved and hate the state of Israel, blaming zionists for everything. Maybe the difference is how much of a bedieved? I think btw that Israeli chareidim are actually more exposed in some ways as they're part of the country and its much harder to be isolated in Israel. Maybe I am more acquainted with brisk which I thought is considered the mainstream of Lakewood. Maybe you'd say that that's more the leadership.
Let me get this straight. You claim you believe that this organisation may help prevent a HOLOCAUST happening. But you can't create it because you have to manage a museum?!
Would expanding the work of current programs be more viable? A quick Google search gives me names of programs within non-profits like Gesher, Talma, and Kemach which work on different aspects of the issue: increasing dialogue, hareidi integration into workforce, and education to bring secular education into hareidi schools.
Not to be too cynical about it, but isn't it the case that a relative handful of Gedolim have the power to continue this or to turn it around? Might not a few sizable....donations....to the appropriate family members of these Gedolim perhaps solve the problem?
This to me is so absolutely disgusting it makes me fume.
Charedi putting our soldiers at risk when they won't fight or even serve themselves.
Going into Lebanon to pray to a stinking corpse. Totally against Torah and immoral to the point of nausea.
After a group of around 20 ultra-Orthodox Israelis recently entered Lebanese territory without authorization to visit a religious gravesite, Israel's military has now accompanied hundreds to the same location, a media report said on Friday.
The Israeli army and the ultra-Orthodox have reached an agreement so that the devout Jews can pray at the site, the Times of Israel newspaper reported.
The tomb believed to be of a Jewish scholar from the 4th century lies on a hill directly on the so-called Blue Line, the international border between Israel and Lebanon.
According to the Times of Israel, the burial site is located between an Israeli army post and a base of the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL).
Parts of the Israeli military had deliberately brought residents of Israel into Lebanese territory, the Lebanese army criticized on the platform X.
It spoke of a "blatant violation of Lebanon's national sovereignty" and a violation of the ceasefire agreement between Israel and the Lebanese militia Hezbollah.
In recent weeks, ultra-Orthodox people have repeatedly entered Lebanese territory on their own initiative to reach the grave. According to Israeli police, several people have been detained.
The Times of Israel also reported clashes with the Israeli army. In the past, there have been visits to the tomb accompanied by the army.
According to police, illegally crossing the Lebanese border is punishable in Israel by up to four years in prison.
I'm not saying that the sage has anything to do with it. Far from it. It's the obnoxious charedim who perform pagan rituals at the gravesites of these people.
The man is dead in his grave and you people go and lie on his grave hugging it and kissing it and praying to him to do who knows what and that is ok?
You don't care about live people as long as you are allowed to do what you want to do. So what if a few soldiers died, it wouldn't matter to you in the slightest so long as you got to promote your paganistick garbage.
Thank you for your service in posting for others to fight and die for your country. I do give you credit, unlike most American and British Zionists, for actually leaving. I trust you have renounced your British citizenship as well.
When we get control over our own country, cutting you people off will be first on the list. I think you will be thankful that the Palestinians are far more merciful and patient than I could ever be.
We are American Jews who are loyal to our country and want to live in a free society. You are Zionists who have taken billions of our dollars and corrupted our governments to do a genocide while destroying major institutions in our country, all while having your confederates in the metropole screech about anti-Semitism. Having you complain about the do-nothing Haredis is pretty rich, given that you would not survive a year without outside support.
Any legitimate candidates yet? Maybe creating a stand-alone that partners with existing orgs to get the job done? So many potential points of contact and influence. Any effort is a positive development.
I cant take on full responsibility for an organisation such as this, however I would be happy to be involved on a local level in Manchester UK. The community is becoming ever increasingly reliant on help.
The problem begins and ends with the "gedolim". The only solution is to enforce the law against telling others not to join the army. Let the "gedolim" get caged for 5 years.
I respectfully disagree. The cartels have private armys with military style weapons. Do a google search on the violence in Mexico when drug lords are arrested. Google the all the mayor's and cops that were assassinated. Now compare to the chareidim. What can they do? What army will they use?
Chas v'shalom it happens, you'll get a lot of smug charedi spokesmen saying "I told you so" as if their failure to support it had nothing to do with it.
The government money spigot needs to be shut off. Everything else is a distraction.
Agreed. As long as Israelis, through their government, continue to send checks, welfare benefits, tuition money, free healthcare, etc. to free-riders who refuse to contribute to the social welfare, the problem will not go away. When the money stops, the problem will be over.
True. Even if they don't draft it will be beneficial for Israel as a whole. Socialism dosent work for this reason. Equality can only go so far.
This is so sad. Nothing will get the charedim to join the IDF as it is currently constituted.
Charedim will begin protecting Israel when one of two things happen:
1 - A separate army is created that is run entirely by charedim. Charedim will join in droves.
2 - The charedim become the majority, take over the existing IDF and make it entirely charedi. The charedim will then join in droves.
Either way, Israel will thrive when the charedim become the majority and join the charedi army. So don't worry.
Just my 2 cents.
The issue is will they transition fast enough to take responsibility for the welfare of the country or not. That's relying on Israel to take their word for it. Something which we don't have the reason to do given the chareidi ethos of להציל מהארי ומהדוב. I hope you are correct though but you can understand how Israelis see this as naive wishful thinking.
The worry is the far too long intermediate period where the Chareidim are large enough to create a massive financial burden but not large enough that they can reform the idf to their liking. It takes 18 years for a child to grow up and during that time it takes a whole lot of government funding to support them.
I’m sure everyone noticed the growing split between the Zionist religious right and the Haredim over military service. The Orthodox right paid in blood as much as the socialist left, and served just as long in reserve (hundred of days), while the Haredim insist they should get paid more to dodge the draft indefinitely. The Haredim no longer have the leverage over government that they traditionally had, not with Likud, and definitely not with the center left. This parasitical arrangement is coming to an end.
So, the army has created separate glatt kosher units, and if the military aged Haredim don’t show up to fill those, they should be sanctioned, hard. Carrots and sticks is how any normal society handles massive law breaking. In the end, Israel has nothing to lose. That threat they’ll leave the country? Hilarious. Every Haredi family costs an average of $35K/year in welfare and other support. If they need to leave to the US and elsewhere, tfadalu. That instantly reduces the financial burden on Israel. With less Haredim Israel also becomes more appealing as an immigration destination to more economically productive Jews from the diaspora. There is no downside to Israel insisting on even distribution of the military service burden.
I have a different solution. Or rather a workaround that I believe would lead to a long-term solution.
Let's begin with some assumptions:
1. A significant percentage of Chareidim would like to be more involved in Israeli society, be it army service, schooling, employment or Zionism. But they lack the courage/incentive to break away from their families and communities. They are not interested in "making a statement," nor do they wish to alienate their families, neighbors, friends or rabbeim.
2. It is acceptable for Chareidim to do certain public service jobs, notably, Zaka and Hatzalah.
3. While the country needs literal boots on the ground right now; long term, the country needs security forces, border control, policing, etc., i.e., non-combat positions.
With this in mind, I would propose starting--and here I must search from an appropriate word: "force" or "unit" or "division" won't work. How about--a service organization, similar to Hatzalah. It would be called Shomrim.
Just as Hatzalah started in Brooklyn in 1965, Shomrim patrols began in the 1970s in Brooklyn before spreading to other frum communities in the New York City area. Today there's a Shomrim in London and even in Teaneck! (It started there recently in light of local behavior in the wake of 10/7.) Here in the U.S. Shomrim work with local law enforcement to keep an eye on the frum community.
In Israel, United Hatzalah in Israel launched in 2006 (combining dozens of pre-existing Hatzalah organizations). today it comprises over 7,000 volunteer medics. I believe that, launched properly and with the right people at the helm, Shomrim would be seen as a kosher endeavor for boys (not girls of course!) who want to expand be useful and are not cut out for learning in yeshiva 12 hours a day.
For this to work
(a) it would have to start off small and slow
(b) it would have to stick precisely to its mission statement of assisting law enforcement. Think young men with walkie-talkies (no. not THAT kind) patrolling malls
(c) there would be no uniforms. Maybe a vest
(d) there would be some initial training in self-defense and in following a chain of command
(e) it would never ever be seen as a precursor for Chareidi army enlistment
Then. Phase two
(a) More training. Possibly how to shoot a pistol. (My feeling is that the volunteers will be asking for this before anyone has to ask them.)
(b) More responsibility. Shemirah in towns, bus stations, Holy sites.
(c) More organizational structure. Shomrim know who they report to and know who reports to them.
(d) More publicity. The branding has to be right. It has to promote Shomrim as a Chareidi enterprise, but serving the whole country. A Gemilus Chasadim initiative writ large.
Phase three
(a) More training, in line with Tzahal and/or Mishtarah
(b) Uniforms (blue not green). Titles, possibly ranks
(c) stipends
(d) credit toward Sheirut Le'umi
Ultimately, Shomrim would be a force capable of many peacetime Tzahal functions. It would be acceptable to the Chareidi community, much as Hatzalah and Zaka are. It would provide an "out" from the system for the many Chareidi boys who want, and desperately need, one. AND the next time (God forbid) Israel finds itself lacking boots-on-the-ground manpower, it would be a ready-made force that would need a far shorter time in basic training to be prepared for the real military.
Anything slow can work. But as you see, the non-chareidim want immediate results, which will bare no results, because no drastic change works.
Slow things won't work if the charedim never concede even a tiny bit and count on things being slow so they can keep kicking the can.
If you think so. I think Chareidim would make small moves that would be a win win for them, like joining the workforce more and some sort of national service, if they didn't have to join wholesale right away. Look at American communities are doing. No threats, more progress. Slow yes.
what slow moves have they done in the last 18 months?
I think I said why they didn't but I'll elaborate: They will do nothing when pushed to go from zero to a hundred. I know it's not fair, but the army won't become acceptable until working for a living does. In the US, even for the Yeshiva World, collage is not a taboo. It's not like that in Israel because people have become sheltered due to the alternative. I know so many Israeli chareidim who would love to join society, but they don't have the option with out going full scale which they are not ready for. You give them space, they'll move. It'll take a generation, but it can work. Lambasting Chareidim ain't gonna change anything. They'll retaliate and your cause will just backfire. I know it's not fair. Do you want to be right or smart?
I'm sure you know the famous vort הצילני מיד אחי מיד עשו, the biggest influence to secularize someone is not by forcing it, but by breaking the barriers.
A generation? There is a war on *now*.
And no, people are much happier to cruise.
That's a short period of time. Chareidi hashkafa has been entrenched for two centuries. Israeli Chareidi hashkafa for half a century. A year and a half can only produce a very gradual awakening but nothing immediate. Otherwise they get scared and jump back into their shells as part of their defense mechanism. To override the mechanism one needs to be more patient than that.
Some have slowly said they will make slow moves providing that no pressure or encouragement is applied. Then again, those who have slowly said so are in the process of being marginalized... and quickly.
I don't mean the leadership. If chareidim were offered a chance to partially join society with some level of contribution without having to go full scale, many would grab it and it would gradually become a norm. They might get government subsidies but many want to live better. They want to have more. Many are not looking to stay learning but are stuck and have no choice. That can change without pushing anyone, and Gedolim don't need to give a haskama. It would just be a reality. but everyone is too busy with principles to let that happen.
Um, exactly *what* are American communities doing and in what way does that have anything to do with Israel?
Meanwhile, as you go slow slow, people die.
They same Yeshivish world but in US are much more practical and most work for a living and can actually afford to support those who learn. Letting chareidim in Israel become like that would allow them to come out of that sheltered level and society would benefit and more can help the security of Israel. But you want immediate results so nothing will happen, and more people die.
You're assuming they *want* to.
More than that, what's the advantage of slow? If it's not a bad idea, than why the delays? Why is sloth suddenly a virtue?
You gotta learn how to swim first. BH the DL are seasoned wit dealing with secular. Chareidim are not. It's not about good or bad chinuch, it needs to go slowly. And let it go slowly, or you can whine forever about it not happening.
BTW, I'm not sure why people are treating Chareidim with such animosity. They are תינוקות שנשבו after all, and we just need to show them love... Sounds familiar?
Because chareidim have built a society which resists major change.
What really has been shown to work is hundreds of blog posts calling them parasites.
@Ash,
Hundreds of blog posts calling chareidi draft dodgers parasites will work only to the extent that it motivates hundreds of thousands of secular and patriotic Israelis to call out these draft dodgers for what they are — parasites.
When chareidi Kollel kvetchers look forward to their Friday Mitzvah Night romp and secular and Hesder soldiers come home for the weekend in body bags, perhaps you’ll understand why cowardly chareidim are so detested.
Cut off all their social funding and you’ll see how rapidly they begin to share the country’s military and economic burden.
What about the non-kvetchers? The serious learners? If they are in the same category pointing out the kvetchers isn't intellectual honest.
@ Avraham marcus,
What about the non-kvetchers??
A non-kvetcher can be as much a coward and parasite as a kvetcher. His study of Torah and Halacha should not permit him to evade military service and he should be required to join with chiloni and hesder soldiers to defend the country. Those few true scholars who are intellectually proficient in their tasks might be exempt from military service but should be required to serve the nation in other forms.
Intellectual honesty mandates that Torah study requires military service especially when existential threats menace the country.
Ok. Then say that then. Don't just talk about mitzva nights and batlanim when you know that's not the whole picture.
When Israel collapses, it will fast, don't worry.
Also, give Hatzalah service credit towards Sheirut Leumi. Make the idea of interacting with regular Israeli society a little less anathema.
When some leaders announce that this is a dangerous initiative, the usual suspects will whine, "Why is this different to Shomrim in America?" They will attack the leaders for their small-mindedness.
But even without reading this blog, they will know that this initiative is a precursor to the army. And the whiners will refuse to realize that these leaders have slightly clearer vision than they give them credit for.
The leaders have clearer vision? Funniest thing I've read all day. What's their leaders' plan for the survival of Israel?
Halt cheshbon, as we say.
Mr. Epstein said that he has a plan - to sneakily introduce Army service through a Shomrim patrol.
When he suggests it to the leaders, they will likely dismiss it, claiming it is a back door entrance to the Army. And the usual suspects will whine and claim, "they won't even allow public service." Yet, the leaders will know that there is a plan behind the innocent suggestion, and they will be right.
Capisce?
The question was "What's their leaders' plan for the survival of Israel?", not what's their plan for avoiding army service.
Why not take this up with Leib who advocated for a slow approach?
"precursor"
Don't be silly. Such activities, while falling far from sharing the burden, are worthwhile endeavors. They are acts of חסד and tremendous מצות, and are expressions of אחדות and communal responsibility. People should not be discouraged from doing such מצות just because someone else years later will fulfill the מצוה of defending עם ישראל and אדמת הקודש.
You are confusing issues.
If you don't accept that Army service for bochurim is wrong, fine. But for the purposes of this discussion, we are dealing with people who do believe so.
Now, if you come to those people with an offer of Shomrim service, they will rightfully see it as a method of introducing Army service. "What's the problem with that?" you may say. That would be forgetting the premise of this discussion.
We once lived in a country, where we were quite successful, and elevated the country at the same time.
One day, the ruling class announced that we are invited to assist the king in building new storehouses for their massive resources. Many of us felt that we owed the country our work, and could not act like ingrates. However, there were some people, generally the more cloistered among us, who vehemently disapproved, warning us that this was a trap. We were told that this would lead to enslavement.
The Ephraims and Slifkins thought they were smarter than the cloistered group, and enthusiastically shared the burden. Those who learn from history are wiser. What happened to us? Who ended up being right?
I'm not sure if someone who chooses to miss such an obvious point can be helped, but here goes:
Egypt. Egyptians.
Your homeland. Your fellow Jews.
See the difference?
There we were strangers. In Israel you are not. Very clear difference.
If missing the point was a talent, these comments would win the 'Got Talent' competition.
The issue is how people sneak things in, and then distrust those who point it out to them.
what's wrong with chareidim joining the army
That wasn't the issue here.
But those who will see past an innocent 'shomrim' organization can be trusted when they think there is a problem.
And you approve, shockingly.
Or the whiners are trying to condition chareidim little by little to come out of their shell and join the rest of the nation. Much of the separation comes from a lack of participation. But אחרי הפעולות נמשכים הלבבות. Give the people a little אחריות for defense, and they can learn to care about the nation. It's a way of paying for govt benefits which are by no means a privilege in any sense. The leaders will decry this but there's always a hope that the people will not listen.
So when the leaders call out these initiatives as not innocent ways for people to do good, but methods of dragging people to the army, you will agree with them. You won't complain that 'they don't even allow any community service'.
Good,
Not dragging. Convincing.
Through subterfuge.
And when people don't buy the lies, the answer is, "How can you have anything against tying tzitzis?" And the lies continue.
No different than kiruv
You realize that this will never happen, right?
"But the situation is so bad, with so little hope for change, that we need to think about how to step up efforts to save the country from nothing less than utter destruction"
You got that part right!
Then you look to see how to fix things, you write:
"There is political campaigning. There is creating and promoting institutions that offer charedim opportunities to receive a secular education and engage in military service. There is outreach to charedim in Israel - flyers, posters, publications"
This is where you have gone wrong -
All the campaigning, offers, opportunities, outreach and all the flyers, even 10 million of them, are not getting the charediem into work or the army. Wishful thinking!!! - like all other "make nice understanding people" if only we showed them how wrong they are, how much we need them, they will enlist. Sure out of 80k we got 177 good work.
Here is how it will wor,k Make them an offer - sign up like everyone else OR it is into a cage for 5 years, and then, cant get a penny out of any government programs.
Absolutely! There have been decades of encouragement and gentle persuasion and outreach, and pleas for change. They have all failed. Doing it again won't do a farking thing. Only cutting off the money and requiring that they shoulder the same burdens as everyone else will save Israel
While I agree with the premise, I don't see your proposed solution getting off the ground.
You're basically asking for an organization whose objective is to tell people what NOT to do. There are already plenty of organizations in the United States promoting Zionism, Aliyah, Tzahal, etc. These organizations do not speak, for the most part, to (let's call them) the Lakewood yeshivish crowd. And while, yes, this crowd is thawing, possibly even warming (particularly post October 7), to the notion of Zionism, they are not, IMHO, going to respond to calls telling them to boycott "Gedolei Yisroel" from E"Y who ask them for money.
Further, I would argue, it would encourage many to give more, knowing that there is pressure in the opposite direction. In short, this would backfire.
The American chareidim (or yeshivish as they should be properly called) coming to Israel to learn in the Mir or Brisk for a year or two before marriage, and maybe for several years after, are certainly not candidates for conversion to Tzahal. They are the highest hanging fruit, not the lowest.
The best way to get Chareidi involvement in Tzahal is what I proposed on this blog several months ago. I will repost below.
"They are the highest hanging fruit, not the lowest."
Actually, Israeli charedim consider any American, even complete olim, to be sug bet.
But that's not the way American Chareidim feel. They identify with the chareidi yeshivot.
And the Israelis look on them as pasul cash cows.
Correct to an extent. Lakewood though is actually moving towards bnei brak in hashkafa so could be these barriers will break.
Eh, maybe from the leadership, only dividing the town more. Anyway, even the most radical Lakewooder can't compare to the average Bnei Braker. I think you're getting your info from media and not real facts.
I had a friend from Lakewood and he was definitely extreme in every sense. I also have known Israeli chareidim from bnei brak, as well as anglos who integrated into the Israeli chareidi world. They both view work as a bedieved and hate the state of Israel, blaming zionists for everything. Maybe the difference is how much of a bedieved? I think btw that Israeli chareidim are actually more exposed in some ways as they're part of the country and its much harder to be isolated in Israel. Maybe I am more acquainted with brisk which I thought is considered the mainstream of Lakewood. Maybe you'd say that that's more the leadership.
Let me get this straight. You claim you believe that this organisation may help prevent a HOLOCAUST happening. But you can't create it because you have to manage a museum?!
Would expanding the work of current programs be more viable? A quick Google search gives me names of programs within non-profits like Gesher, Talma, and Kemach which work on different aspects of the issue: increasing dialogue, hareidi integration into workforce, and education to bring secular education into hareidi schools.
Not to be too cynical about it, but isn't it the case that a relative handful of Gedolim have the power to continue this or to turn it around? Might not a few sizable....donations....to the appropriate family members of these Gedolim perhaps solve the problem?
Na. The litvishe gedolim are motivated by ideology. Money is a means to an end.
The Gedolim, sure. But they are often controlled by handlers who are far more open to the idea.
This to me is so absolutely disgusting it makes me fume.
Charedi putting our soldiers at risk when they won't fight or even serve themselves.
Going into Lebanon to pray to a stinking corpse. Totally against Torah and immoral to the point of nausea.
After a group of around 20 ultra-Orthodox Israelis recently entered Lebanese territory without authorization to visit a religious gravesite, Israel's military has now accompanied hundreds to the same location, a media report said on Friday.
The Israeli army and the ultra-Orthodox have reached an agreement so that the devout Jews can pray at the site, the Times of Israel newspaper reported.
The tomb believed to be of a Jewish scholar from the 4th century lies on a hill directly on the so-called Blue Line, the international border between Israel and Lebanon.
According to the Times of Israel, the burial site is located between an Israeli army post and a base of the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL).
Parts of the Israeli military had deliberately brought residents of Israel into Lebanese territory, the Lebanese army criticized on the platform X.
It spoke of a "blatant violation of Lebanon's national sovereignty" and a violation of the ceasefire agreement between Israel and the Lebanese militia Hezbollah.
In recent weeks, ultra-Orthodox people have repeatedly entered Lebanese territory on their own initiative to reach the grave. According to Israeli police, several people have been detained.
The Times of Israel also reported clashes with the Israeli army. In the past, there have been visits to the tomb accompanied by the army.
According to police, illegally crossing the Lebanese border is punishable in Israel by up to four years in prison.
While I mostly agree with the content of what you wrote, to refer to the great Amora in that way is beyond contemptible. Please polish your act.
The Amora isn't even actually buried there, so no issue.
Explain yourself.
You refer to a Holy Sage as a... I can't even bring myself to repeat it. If you can't understand that, I can't be helpful.
He was talking about the *body*, not the amora.
Aha, so that's the only thing you think of at his grave? Talk about respect.
Your holy dead sage is putting my honorable live soldiers lives at totally unnecessary risk.
That is what is contemptible.
It's not the sage that is putting the soldiers' lives at risk. It's not as though he called for people to visit his grave.
I'm not saying that the sage has anything to do with it. Far from it. It's the obnoxious charedim who perform pagan rituals at the gravesites of these people.
Wow. He's actually to blame for something happening 1500 years after his passing. Your ilk never cease to surprise me.
My ilk?
The man is dead in his grave and you people go and lie on his grave hugging it and kissing it and praying to him to do who knows what and that is ok?
You don't care about live people as long as you are allowed to do what you want to do. So what if a few soldiers died, it wouldn't matter to you in the slightest so long as you got to promote your paganistick garbage.
Contemptible?
Indeed. Unacceptable.
חזק ואצץ!!
Thank you for your service in posting for others to fight and die for your country. I do give you credit, unlike most American and British Zionists, for actually leaving. I trust you have renounced your British citizenship as well.
When we get control over our own country, cutting you people off will be first on the list. I think you will be thankful that the Palestinians are far more merciful and patient than I could ever be.
"When we get control over our own country, cutting you people off will be first on the list." Who is "we" and who is "you"?
We are American Jews who are loyal to our country and want to live in a free society. You are Zionists who have taken billions of our dollars and corrupted our governments to do a genocide while destroying major institutions in our country, all while having your confederates in the metropole screech about anti-Semitism. Having you complain about the do-nothing Haredis is pretty rich, given that you would not survive a year without outside support.
Any legitimate candidates yet? Maybe creating a stand-alone that partners with existing orgs to get the job done? So many potential points of contact and influence. Any effort is a positive development.
I cant take on full responsibility for an organisation such as this, however I would be happy to be involved on a local level in Manchester UK. The community is becoming ever increasingly reliant on help.
The problem begins and ends with the "gedolim". The only solution is to enforce the law against telling others not to join the army. Let the "gedolim" get caged for 5 years.
Then they'll rile up the המון to riot. It will never happen. Just like טרנספר at this point. You Need something practical.
So mexico shouldn't enforce the laws against drug lords because that will increase gang violence on the streets?
It's easier to send the military after drug lords than lock up the leaders of around 15% of the states population. Think practically. Not ideally.
I respectfully disagree. The cartels have private armys with military style weapons. Do a google search on the violence in Mexico when drug lords are arrested. Google the all the mayor's and cops that were assassinated. Now compare to the chareidim. What can they do? What army will they use?
Totally agree!!
@Sno26
Which collapse, among the possible many, is that?
Chas v'shalom it happens, you'll get a lot of smug charedi spokesmen saying "I told you so" as if their failure to support it had nothing to do with it.