This life of no vocation and using the Torah as a livelihood is as sinful as eating pork maybe more so. The yeshiva bocherim need to not only serve but to lead unsubsidized lives and contribute to society. This study for a living is pure unadulterated BS and in the long term perverts the overall teaching of the law. There is plenty of evidence that they can maintain a kosher lifestyle in the IDF.
You're right. This is disgusting. Beyond disgusting.
Clearly the people of Beit Shemesh paid for this insanity- that's the mayor and the city logo.
I have no words.
Should I mention that 98 million shekels was just transferred to the Charedi education system by our esteemed government two days ago, but only 15 million was allotted to upgrade hospital protected areas so patients don't have to be treated in underground parking lots in the next war?? I can't even breathe thinking about this.
My nephew in Golani was shot in Lebanon before Pesach. I'm sure it would have been much more comfortable for him to be in a jacuzzi instead of destroying homes of terrorists. Any yeshiva guys get shot sitting in the beit midrash?
These people are brainwashed serfs of their so called “rabbis.” But they are not Rabbis. They are mafia bosses who sell the votes of their “subjects” to the highest bidder. They have no concern for Israel nor Israelis. They’ve just figured out how to abuse the system at the expense of Israeli taxpayers. They are an enemy of Israel from within and a total disgrace to Jews and of course Orthodox Jews. Imay God deal with them as they deserve
You're missing the entire social psychology element. Societies function in certain ways and the dynamic I'm describing is not unusual in his they are the whole world as defined by the community they know and the rest of the planet as aliens that, overall, have nothing to do with them. And they are not just "nice to each other." In personal interactions, they're exceptionally good to non-charedim also. Not all, of course. Many are disgusting towards them. But the good ones I'm describing that are the bulk of the community are like that, although October 7 definitely drove another wedge in there
So what's the point of applying your frame of reference to theirs? You're not helping anyone understand them or their behavior. All you can accomplish is mislead others into misunderstanding the actual dynamics and actual problems. This comes across as just throwing mud.
I agree that this will not change the minds of the haredi world, but shedding light on it might also shed light on the gov't funding system, which is quite responsive to not doing things that cast them in a bad light, outrageous funding allocations for one.
Perhaps someone could call the Beit Shemesh Municipality to find out who paid for this shindig, but here's the Guidestar for the organization as a whole:
I think at this point you need to consult with a social psychologist if your want any actual understanding of the mindset of these people. If you were to present them with all these arguments in the most pleasant, carrying and sensitive way, they would look at you like you were from some lost African tribe beating on drums. They don't occupy the same universe as you do and their minds and hearts, sociologically and psychologically, process this type of information and argument in a completely different way.
I agree that it breeds bad midos that only get worse, the same way mindlessly doing mitzvos and chesed can awaken a positive, sincere attitude to both. And that this viscous cycle has gotten pretty viscous. But the key point is that speaking from one frame of reference about another that is completely foreign to the first carries no actual meaning unless you "translate" by speaking from within the point of view of the other frame of reference.
This kind of argument is all about social psychology and without that discipline you're undermining your own academic clout.
Who's the "they"? Every single person who identifies charedi? Every sweet little eight year old girl? Every innocent teen sincerely trying to be the best person they can? Every innocent teen fifteen years later still trying to live up to the honorable things he's been taught and being clueless about all the politics and outsiders he knows nothing about? With no media of any kind to learn one things about the country "out there"? Never having didn't time with non-charedim? This is a social issue - not a personal one.
My guess is you've never gotten to know any charedi community on a personal level in your entire life and you're just spouting this disgusting hatred gratuitously out of sheer lazy ignorance. Thanks for your input.
The average charedi sees this whole subject as way above their pay grade and humbly trusts their leaders to deal with this noise while they work sincerely to live individually meaningful lives every minute of every day to the extent they each can. They've never been introduced to the while concept of citizenship and carry thousands of years of history of being persecuted by those on power and see this as the newest, most pernicious iteration of this pattern.
You're free to offer mindless comments on blogs, obviously, but if you slander a community of a million people who are both beloved and honorable despite being tragically and potentially catastrophically wrong about central principles, don't expect me to remain silent.
Beloved…? Honorable…? You don’t get out much do you? Otherwise you’d have been caught in a פקק by those snot nosed yeshiva students and kolleniks blocking traffic saying death before service. All while they suck at the teat of the govt they don’t acknowledge and ignore its Laws.
On both of these it depends who you're talking about, which was the whole point of my previous comment. Yes, there are sub groups that are as bad as you say. And I have written here often how much their behavior sickens me and how wrong headed their leaders are. But they are the minority by a LOT. There is a large percentage who is everything I said.
This life of no vocation and using the Torah as a livelihood is as sinful as eating pork maybe more so. The yeshiva bocherim need to not only serve but to lead unsubsidized lives and contribute to society. This study for a living is pure unadulterated BS and in the long term perverts the overall teaching of the law. There is plenty of evidence that they can maintain a kosher lifestyle in the IDF.
My son said that the food wasn't bad over Pesach in Lebanon. I guess these Yeshiva guys have fear-of-missing-out.
You're right. This is disgusting. Beyond disgusting.
Clearly the people of Beit Shemesh paid for this insanity- that's the mayor and the city logo.
I have no words.
Should I mention that 98 million shekels was just transferred to the Charedi education system by our esteemed government two days ago, but only 15 million was allotted to upgrade hospital protected areas so patients don't have to be treated in underground parking lots in the next war?? I can't even breathe thinking about this.
My nephew in Golani was shot in Lebanon before Pesach. I'm sure it would have been much more comfortable for him to be in a jacuzzi instead of destroying homes of terrorists. Any yeshiva guys get shot sitting in the beit midrash?
These people are brainwashed serfs of their so called “rabbis.” But they are not Rabbis. They are mafia bosses who sell the votes of their “subjects” to the highest bidder. They have no concern for Israel nor Israelis. They’ve just figured out how to abuse the system at the expense of Israeli taxpayers. They are an enemy of Israel from within and a total disgrace to Jews and of course Orthodox Jews. Imay God deal with them as they deserve
Absolutely sickening. And you didn't mention the ironically named youth organization:
בני חיל
You're missing the entire social psychology element. Societies function in certain ways and the dynamic I'm describing is not unusual in his they are the whole world as defined by the community they know and the rest of the planet as aliens that, overall, have nothing to do with them. And they are not just "nice to each other." In personal interactions, they're exceptionally good to non-charedim also. Not all, of course. Many are disgusting towards them. But the good ones I'm describing that are the bulk of the community are like that, although October 7 definitely drove another wedge in there
These Haredim who refuse to join the rest of us are beneath contempt. Woe to them when they see the result of their behavior.
So what's the point of applying your frame of reference to theirs? You're not helping anyone understand them or their behavior. All you can accomplish is mislead others into misunderstanding the actual dynamics and actual problems. This comes across as just throwing mud.
I agree that this will not change the minds of the haredi world, but shedding light on it might also shed light on the gov't funding system, which is quite responsive to not doing things that cast them in a bad light, outrageous funding allocations for one.
Perhaps someone could call the Beit Shemesh Municipality to find out who paid for this shindig, but here's the Guidestar for the organization as a whole:
https://www.guidestar.org.il/organization/580237741
I think at this point you need to consult with a social psychologist if your want any actual understanding of the mindset of these people. If you were to present them with all these arguments in the most pleasant, carrying and sensitive way, they would look at you like you were from some lost African tribe beating on drums. They don't occupy the same universe as you do and their minds and hearts, sociologically and psychologically, process this type of information and argument in a completely different way.
I agree that it breeds bad midos that only get worse, the same way mindlessly doing mitzvos and chesed can awaken a positive, sincere attitude to both. And that this viscous cycle has gotten pretty viscous. But the key point is that speaking from one frame of reference about another that is completely foreign to the first carries no actual meaning unless you "translate" by speaking from within the point of view of the other frame of reference.
This kind of argument is all about social psychology and without that discipline you're undermining your own academic clout.
Oh i agree that it's ultimately all about social psychology. The fundamental point is that they don't see themselves as part of the same society.
There is nothing to understand. Or to excuse. They are disgusting evil people.
Who's the "they"? Every single person who identifies charedi? Every sweet little eight year old girl? Every innocent teen sincerely trying to be the best person they can? Every innocent teen fifteen years later still trying to live up to the honorable things he's been taught and being clueless about all the politics and outsiders he knows nothing about? With no media of any kind to learn one things about the country "out there"? Never having didn't time with non-charedim? This is a social issue - not a personal one.
My guess is you've never gotten to know any charedi community on a personal level in your entire life and you're just spouting this disgusting hatred gratuitously out of sheer lazy ignorance. Thanks for your input.
The average charedi sees this whole subject as way above their pay grade and humbly trusts their leaders to deal with this noise while they work sincerely to live individually meaningful lives every minute of every day to the extent they each can. They've never been introduced to the while concept of citizenship and carry thousands of years of history of being persecuted by those on power and see this as the newest, most pernicious iteration of this pattern.
You're free to offer mindless comments on blogs, obviously, but if you slander a community of a million people who are both beloved and honorable despite being tragically and potentially catastrophically wrong about central principles, don't expect me to remain silent.
"while they work sincerely to live individually meaningful lives every minute of every day"
Yes, I'm sure they were sitting in that jacuzzi in a sincerely meaningful humble way.
What a joke.
Follow the chain, dude. Some are good and some are bad. It's you deciding to paint the good ones as bad for no reason
Beloved…? Honorable…? You don’t get out much do you? Otherwise you’d have been caught in a פקק by those snot nosed yeshiva students and kolleniks blocking traffic saying death before service. All while they suck at the teat of the govt they don’t acknowledge and ignore its Laws.
Humbly trusts or idiotically trusts their leaders to make these life stumbling decisions for them?
On both of these it depends who you're talking about, which was the whole point of my previous comment. Yes, there are sub groups that are as bad as you say. And I have written here often how much their behavior sickens me and how wrong headed their leaders are. But they are the minority by a LOT. There is a large percentage who is everything I said.