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Charlie Hall's avatar

Few in the US have any sense of this. With very few exceptions the civilian US population has not experienced a real war directly since the American Civil War.

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Natan Slifkin's avatar

I don't think that Americans grasp what's going on here at all.

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Moshe M's avatar

There are many Americans that understand. Obviously not to the same extent as someone going thru it but we do understand what it means to live in fear. And it affects us too. How many times has someone come over to you screaming f*** you jews Hitler should have killed you all? How many times were you physically assaulted on the train just for wearing a yalmuka? That and more has happened to me.

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Natan Slifkin's avatar

True. Both those things happened to me in Manchester.

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Howie Noel's avatar

Time to make alliah!

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Moshe M's avatar

I have no doubt the what Isrealis are going thru is a lot worse.

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Dec 17, 2023
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shulman's avatar

Just found this rant and I'll say I'm more confused than when I started. You're talking but I'm not receiving. Maybe it's me? Can you summarize? Are you anti Israel? Are you just sympathetic to those Arabs who are not trying to kill us? What did your humility have to do with all of this? In what way we you shunned by the mainstream community? Not to be offensive, but taking this rant at face value, you don't sound okay. And if you're going to write like this on a public blog you must expect people to call you out...

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Dec 18, 2023
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shulman's avatar

Same shulman. I'm still very much looking forward to our phone call. but just because we will be talking privately doesn't mean that I can't respond publicly to the things you wrote for everyone to see. Was your plan that anyone who responds to you here needs to wait for a private setting to get a response? This is a public dialogue with public gives and takes.

I mean no disrespect, esteemed sir, but other people are also curious for you to clarify your positions as well. I asked very specific questions on the words you decided to publicly post on this public forum and you're getting insulted when it's too explain? That's not fair, brother.

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Dec 18, 2023
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Nachum's avatar

Another sukkah-kicker.

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Avraham marcus's avatar

You claim to be a very humble man?

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Dec 17, 2023
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Dec 17, 2023
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shulman's avatar

What was so urgent they you needed to speak to reb Elyashiv specifically, at the cost of them trusting someone they don't know with the gadol's safety?

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Dec 18, 2023
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Dec 18, 2023
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Dec 18, 2023
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Dec 18, 2023
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Baruch kaminsky's avatar

Imagine the trauma the kids in Gaza are having. Further proof Hamas is just scaring the future generations into oblivion

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Shaul's avatar

Miserable, miserable Gaza children:

https://palwatch.org/page/34818

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ACJA's avatar

Heartbroken for the trauma suffered by Israel and Jews around the globe. Lets hope Israel can quickly wipe out Hamas bringing an end to the terror unleased on Israel by Hamas over about the past two decades. The war is existential to Israel and they must show NO MERCY to Hamas and their acolytes. If Israel fights a "politically" correct war they will lose. Even when Israel fights a PC war they are condemned. I am sorry to say the media, Universities and even large parts of USA government are antisemites and Anti Israel.

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Yakov's avatar

Israel will not wipe out Hamas or remove the Arabs from Gaza. The conflict will continue and Slifkin's kids, unless they avoid the army service, will end up in Gaza and Lebanon. Identifing with dinosaurs or kangaroos wont help them.

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Yakov's avatar

'My youngest child suffers from anxiety.'

Isn't he taught from the childhood to be ready and proud to die for the country? טוב למות בעד ארצינו?

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Scott Sunday's avatar

Have a little sympathy. Just a little. Owen's poem put an end to טוב למות בעד ארצינו if it ever existed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulce_et_Decorum_est

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Yakov's avatar

I don't know what you are talking about. טוב למות בעד ארצינו, unlike identifing with animals, is an excellent principle that offers an evolutionary survival advantage to a group that adopts it.

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Natan Slifkin's avatar

And you wonder why people are not attracted to charedi society.

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Yakov's avatar

Mate, what does this have to do with the charedi society?

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Hashkafic halfway house's avatar

Don't mind Slifkin, he sees chareidim in every corner

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David Ohsie's avatar

What does that have to do with trauma? Lots of soldiers put their lives on the line and come back with PTSD.

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yaakov rowland's avatar

I am 65 years old and I and others in the states lived during the days or duck and cover and knowing where the shelter was, etc. I do not recall many children at that time with trauma, nor in my teens and into my 20's where now it is being revealed how close we were to WW3. When I was a child, we would look up in sky to see if there a missile or Russian bombers...there were none. The airforce was in the air and noticable and I others were used to it. Sure it was tense, etc...but no trauma. If there was it was rare. We as a people were confident that we would prevail. Maybe it is because I was part of the generation after WW2 and we were a tougher lot.

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Natan Slifkin's avatar

Because "duck and cover" was just practice - there never actually was anything!!

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Ephraim's avatar

100% correct.

There was no fear or trauma when it was just drills. But actually hearing (and sometimes seeing) the explosions is another matter.

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yaakov rowland's avatar

Correct...but the danger was real. My father was in the air force and our house was just outside the base. We all knew that if war came, and the city(Denver being the second capitol of the US in case of emergency) would be gone. No trauma as I mentioned before.

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Garvin's avatar

I'm sure you know the real answer. Has absolutely nothing to do with one being more dangerous than the other, that's nonsense. It's that the concept of "trauma" (and "syndromes" and "disorders" etc) wasn't pushed on children and parents like today.

No use to be מאריך on this. Its an old issue, inextricably linked with one's politics on nanny-statism, libertarianism, trust in government, and more. Either you get it or you dont.

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Yakov's avatar

Very true and Slifkin is a quintessential cry baby.

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Dec 18, 2023
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Yakov's avatar

What do you care? Slifkin is a curious case of a once harmless British eccentric, who lost it, and, judging by all current indicators, will likely end up very badly in 15 years from now. I am watching the developments. This post is complete insanity as a response to the perpetual conflict in which Israel has been engaged. Commander Slifkin speaks for herself, a son is a total mess. Instead of sending him to martial arts and teaching him to shoot guns, Slifkin makes him identify with an animal. It's a total disaster, but an interesting case of eccentricity turned into insanity.

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*****'s avatar

That is true. B'H the vast majority of holocaust survivors and those who were exiled, parentlyess from their place of birth, (yes, I know not all) worked on themselves and managed to live a life post holocaust. And look what they built.

If that had happened today, I dread to think.

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Zundel Eysheshoker's avatar

Well, we only saw those Holocaust survivors who built a life for themselves. Those who had to be institutionalized, those who committed suicide, those who lived homeless lives, are nowhere to be found. Many families had siblings that they did not speak of, due to the sadness of the situation.

Survivor bias is a real thing.

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David Ohsie's avatar

Also just because you build a family, does't mean that you don't suffer.

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Garvin's avatar

That's simply not true. There's always exceptions to everything, even a child knows that. Outliers are not taken into consideration when stating the general rule. And the rule is, the overwhelming large majority of Jews came out of the war, picked themselves up, and moved on with their lives. Because the trauma/crisis/support/therapy industry didn't yet exist. We were still manufacturing things then, and women were home raising families.

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Nachum's avatar

First, I have to point out the sheer tastelessness of R' Slifkin making a post about how he and his institution are trying to do the right thing and immediately attracting a bunch of cynical "experts" who Have It All Figured Out. I don't know if you people are as charming in real life, or you think being anonymous online shields you, or you're just trolls trying to get a rise out of people, but whatever it is, it's not a good look.

Second, you are, of course, wrong. Lots of victims of the Holocaust did *not* turn out OK. First, there were far more many dead than survivors, and studies have shown that the survivors were already more resilient, so there's a bias there. In addition, those who lost it in the camps were of course immediately killed or killed themselves. Next, many survivors came out of it so seriously damaged they had to be committed for life. Or it hit them on delay and *then* the were committed, and of course received psychological treatment that either worked or didn't. And finally, even those who were able to live out in the world were very, very affected. Talk to the children of survivors every now and then.

*Any* societal trauma leads to bad results. Even the relatively peaceful immigration of millions of Jews to America in the late 1800's led to some pretty messed up societies. Soldiers have *always* had post-traumatic stress, it just went under different names. (George Carlin has a bit on this.) There was a big mental hospital in Washington DC full of Civil War veterans who had lost it. World War I, ditto, and so on. Think there were no ill effects of World War I? Read some of the 1920's novels written by veterans. Same for those written by World War II veterans. Think all that duck and cover of the 1950's and the Cuban Missile Crisis had no effect on the young? Why do you think the world went mad in 1968?? And of course it's not just individuals. Western Civilization, one of the most wonderful things man has ever made, committed suicide from 1914-1918 and never came back. That the corpse was basically killed all over again from 1939-1945 didn't help. And, again, 1968, which *really* ended it.

So again, yeah, glad you've got it all figured out.

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Garvin's avatar

Like I said before, Nachum, you've changed.

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David Ohsie's avatar

The holocaust had tremendous negative impact on survivors. They felt shame over survival in addition to everything else. Read some holocaust literature. It's probably true that today they would be given much better mental health support while at the time that they lived, mental health treatment was probably considered an embarrassment besides the survivor shame.

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Yakov's avatar

True words, if there were any. I'm 64 and my parents were teenagers in Russia during the war and never spoke of trauma nor have I noticed any. It was clear who was the enemy and the society was united in its destruction. The idea of sacrificing the lives of your soldiers to protect the lives of the enemy's civilians did not exist.

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ACJA's avatar

And that is why USA has essentially not won a single war it has entered since WWII. The Media cries every time a "civilian" dies. It is not possible to fight and win a "Politically Correct" war. The USA is repeating the mantra to Israel of how to fight and lose a war, USA style. In war people, including "civilians" die, that is why war is called hell. Hamas brought this war on itself and Gaza. Gazans support Hamas. Hamas needs to be completely destroyed no matter the cost. If Israel does not do this it faces extinction. Nothing is off the table.

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Yakov's avatar

It's not Hamas - it's the Arab presence in Gaza. The only solution is to remove them.

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ACJA's avatar

One day Israel may have to do just that. No country can or should tolerate a neighboring region sending rockets for almost 2 decades. Their neighbors (not just Gazans) are implementing a death to Israel by a thousand cuts. Including economic, informational, terrorism, militarily including rockets etc:

Whatever happened to "NEVER AGAIN" ?

Israel must inform their neighbors cease and desist or face the ultimate destruction. Give them a sample what may happen to them if they continue. Nothing is off the table.

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yaakov rowland's avatar

But Israel should have destroyed Hamas in its infancy...this is what inherited from the idea of containment and seeking so kind of peace with them. No to mention the utter stupidity of giving them aid, etc.

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yaakov rowland's avatar

In the states, we went about our business. Yes we knew that it could all end in a moment, but if people dwell on that all of the time, people would be paralyzed with fear and easy pickings for any enemy This all changed with the so called nuclear winter theory. In Israel, I live in a place where I can count on my hand how many sirens went off. I did not run to a shelter but looked up and waited a boom. I saw Iron Dome in action and was confident that the rocket would be taken out. Maybe that is just foolhardy fatalism on my part or it could be that when I was a kid, I saw a movie about Churchill and how during the Blitz over London, he would go to the roof of 10 Downing with a pair of binoculars and watch the air raid. I was inspired by that. Lastly, you are right, we win wars by making them die for their cause not the other way around.

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Nachum's avatar

Did you fail to notice that 1,200 people were murdered on October 7?

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yaakov rowland's avatar

Are you trying to be an arse by making a comment like that? But I think you have succeeded at it. No further comment.

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Nachum's avatar

*I'm* the "arse"? (Watch your language, son.) *You're* the one who implied that Israelis have nothing to worry about. My kids see posters for kidnapped kids their age. You think that doesn't affect them?

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yaakov rowland's avatar

The word is apt and I thought it better than that what others could say. If you bothered to read...my point was and is, one should not fear and be confident and if there is fear, to control it and let it pass through you. Again, I am responding to comments from you further.

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Ephraim's avatar

Survivor bias. Those killed/hurt by non-intercepted rockets or shrapnel from intercepted rockets are not likely to write such nonsense.

" Maybe that is just foolhardy fatalism on my part"

What fatalism? You can run (or for many of us, walk) to a shelter!

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yaakov rowland's avatar

What bias is in your head?

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yaakov rowland's avatar

Thanks, that looks like a very interesting book. When I was a teen in the 70's they started with all this nonsense about how I feel and not teaching objective knowledge. I remember getting into trouble about never ending debate about Hiroshima, etc. When asked, I just said it was necessary to the end the war avoid more deaths and the possible destruction of the Japanese culture, etc. and it does not matter what I think, it is over and done with. I am of the opinion, when the teaching non objective subjects with shrinks in tow, the generations of Americans and people through the world are much weaker.

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David Ohsie's avatar

There were and are plenty of WWII veterans with PTSD as with any war.

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Yekutiel Weiss's avatar

Your educational programs are wonderful!

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Shaul Shapira's avatar

An article about the conditions of evacuees.

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra13714756

For comic relief: I think this ברדק clip is hilarious, but be warned that there's a prerecorded siren at the beginning.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GszCMBK2uJm6PLl-9VB4D3qL1D27zkQx/view?upixel=691bsgq1qj0000000kpli4hh0g6tkl

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DavidtheK's avatar

Here is a link for medical volunteers. There is a need for therapists also to help with trauma counseling. Therapists need not make the trip to Israel. Zoom sessions with patients can be arranged. New immigrants especially need help; and many of these are English speakers. Hope this helps

https://forms.office.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=Kz2xuMtqnUC7-8E0GKUKgaORQTQJHnVAif-wPV0UhvpURDJYT0tGMjBBSFFWQTZOT04xWjVKTlpWTCQlQCN0PWcu

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shulman's avatar

ya my nephew is 11 and is terrified of being stuck in the bomb shelters due to the remote possiblitiy of them running out of air (because of some story his rebbi shared in cheder). having to constantly run to the shelters, this whole thing has been really hard on him traumatically

(not sure his super bnei-braki parents will go for slifkitherapy lol but) tizke lmitzvos on your efforts. it will help many

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yaakov rowland's avatar

I am very sorry that the youngest of children is so badly affected by the war. I can hope that she will get over this as well as many other people soon and grow stronger from this. For me, I have a problem relating to this...I have been through many things(asides from recollection in another reply) in my life from my parents early deaths, a few terrible car accidents, childhood asthma from a few close calls with death. All of them shook me up, but I never went to therapy, etc. I got over it and dealed with things that needed to be done and the lessons from it. We live to say no to death. I think the best thing to do with your youngest, is not to show fear and be confident and this war will pass. Keep faith in Hashem, be smart and do not let fear be the little death. I also wanted to say that it was not my intention of my other reply to detract from your post...I am afraid it did and I am sorry if it caused some to be critical of you what you and your family are dealing with.

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Yakov's avatar

Things are likely to get much worse when the war moves to the north and the West Bank. You had better think of different way to deal with the problem because identifying with animals not gonna cut it.

If Hamas guys read this post they must be laughing their heads off at the weakness of the Jews.

The cause of trauma is the inability of the state to solve the Arab problem for 75 years. It has no solution to offer and the future is a perpetual conflict out of the position of increasing weakness.

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Dec 17, 2023
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Yakov's avatar

But is it true?

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Mordechai Gordon's avatar

Brilliant idea. My youngest also suffers from anxiety. Corona brought it on and she was recovering pretty well till the war hit ...

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Natan Slifkin's avatar

I can't believe the double whammy that our kids went through - first corona, and then this. We had such a simple childhood.

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Ephraim's avatar

Yeah, but with all the time off school they can't complain they didn't have a childhood!

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Mordechai Gordon's avatar

I know. A few weeks ago I had some 20yr old American yeshiva students at the shabbat table with my son and his friends from the yishuv who are all in combat units in the army. What a massive difference. Not sure how you would define it but what I felt was these boys have shouldered a historic responsibility and that gives them a weight and a significance beyond their years. Kids are definitely in the eye of the storm here. We grew up in a bubble within a bubble.

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Nachum's avatar

One line was "Our kids are going to think that elections are every six months and school is every other year."

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משכיל בינה's avatar

Not Corona, lockdown, a decision made by human beings to traumatise children so that old people could live a bit longer (which didn't even work).

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Garvin's avatar

Well said.

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Dec 18, 2023
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Nachum's avatar

Societies have traditionally valued the lives of the young over the old. Obviously places with upside-down fertility pyramids are going to do the opposite.

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Dec 19, 2023
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Natan Slifkin's avatar

Please stop commenting on this blog with non-post related content.

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Dec 17, 2023
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shulman's avatar

What's your deal? What are you offering that absolutely no one else in the world can?

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Dec 17, 2023
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shulman's avatar

yah it wasn't 100% clear to me (maybe because i refuse to actually believe this?), does he think he's moshiach? am i missing something?

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Dec 18, 2023
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shulman's avatar

hi, i don't mind doing this via email (my email is davidschulmannn@gmai.com) but you didn't answer no to oiberchuchem...

what i'd like to know (and again, you can respond in an email) is what is your agenda? i'm not getting a clear picture. what is your plan? what message are you trying to send to everyone? what do you have to share with us? i'm genuinely curious

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shulman's avatar

but also - to be clear - you are out here sending some message, and i imagine you expect people to ask to clarify if they don't understand. so maybe it's better if we do it out here and not just privately.

your call

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