"if you are marked – the girls won’t be accepted into the seminaries, you won’t receive matchmaking offers, they won’t let you continue teaching classes. You’re finished"
It's a shame to live in such fear. We were supposedly freed from slavery in Egypt to serve only God and not man, but it seems like so many people just make themselves slaves to social norms instead.
They should not live in fear. If the y don't like the way the community lives, they should leave. Just like Natan did.
Don't be so self-righteous. If a member of the dati-leumi community decides to openly reject the ideals of the dati-leumi community (e.g., to live as a completely secular person) while continuing to be a member of the dati-leumi community, do you think he will get shiduchim suggestions from the dati-leumi community? Be serious.
And if like Chana Rachel says, it's because they have families and spouses, that is a difficult situation. People have the same problem in the other direction when they are chozer bitshuvah or Charedify and they already have families.
If I may be so bold, what he says about the way the Litvish are raised (which is really depressing) can also be seen in how they reply in comment threads to posts like these.
What he says about charedim who aren't even shomer mitzvot, let alone learn, is what Kobi Arieli wrote last week.
I'm beginning to agree with the Rebbe who earlier this year threatened to move himself and his hassidim back to Hungary.
Lithuania for Haredi Litvaks, just the same. Make my day.
And then there's this morning's news about Yitzchak Yosef shooting his mouth off again (yes, I've lost all respect at this point). Plus the haredim threatening the judicial reform coalition vote.
It's as if they all learned absolutely nothing since last year's Shmini Atzeret. Nothing!
Thinking the same thing. The only problem I have - nothing will help get them into the army. We are all just wasting time. What don't WE understand of the meaning "I am NOT going" Only maybe this can do the trick - and that is only an "if"
! - Take away their voting rites - like someone said, let them vote spiritually
2 -No benefit at all from societies money - let them collect it themselves overseas
3- Make a separate health plan for those who don't contribute to society,
Even if they don't go - at the very least they don't dictate policy, nor take our money!
The power of ostracism is real, and it would probably scare you too if you were threatened in the same way. I have only respect for the people who spoke for this article, who went out of their way to recommend economic policies that would bring hardship on themselves and their own families in order to create necessary change.
I think it's important not to judge before you're in the shoes. Isn't it possible that in addition to being ostracized by their community, which they may or may not care about, the real fear is what this will do to their spouse or children? Would you sacrifice your family for your ideals? And if you don't, would it be a fair accusation that you don't feal God sufficiently because you prioritize your family?
My family *is* sacrificing for their ideals... Two sons are in active Miluim right now, before they finish, another one goes back in for round 4 (I think, I've lost track).
It is very hard on their spouses and children, but thank G-d they are all on the same page.
If I was living in a community that didn't coincide with my ideals, I would be out of there pronto.
I think it's a different kind of sacrifice... the physical sacrifice that you do with your community, and the kind of sacrifice that would kick your family out of the community.
That being said, it's easy to leave a community with your family when you all share the same ideals and are on the same page. But if the families of these anonymous Rabbonim don't share those ideals, then they will be stuck in no man's land. No friends, no support system, no community, no marriage prospects. I'm not sure if I would be willing to do that to my family, and I certainly won't judge them for not being God fearing enough. I'll let God do the judging and for the time being, be grateful of the courage it took them to even go this far.
It's one thing when the goyim consider Jewish blood hefker, but it's worse to hear it from those who are supposedly our fellow Jews. One might have thought Jews who call themselved "haredi" believed the Truth was worth sacrificing for, or that doing the will of G-d was more important than maintaining social acceptance.
I can certainly relate to the [fairly common] predicament of someone believing in something deeply, but being unable to implement it because of family or other considerations. I know several people who strongly believe that they should live in Israel, but they can't because their spouse isn't "on board", or it would be objectively detrimental to their kids. This is unfortunate, could be a source of regret, but doesn't involve living a double life.
But having to "live a lie" and actually teach in a system and educate your kids in a system that is [in part] incongruent with your beliefs to avoid ostracism... I can't even imagine what that must be like. (Though I also can't imagine what Hareidi ostracism feels like)
Thank you for mentioning your personal Mitzvot. Noticing the children of the west, and their new medical and moral cliff-endings, I began to deduce that the most influence anyone can possibly have is in their own home and upon their own children. This is a vast disparity from observance of Torah values. See where it leads?
You can have the most hope and confidence in contradistinction to others because of your deeds and location of choice. You should well be envied, not criticized, by anyone with half a brain.
"Your rabbis recognize this superiority. No Zionist rabbi would erase the Haredi gedolei hador."
Interesting turn of phrase. This implies that there is at least in part a battlefield of perception. So, work to change that perception. Use terms like "Gaon," "gadol," and "gadol hador" that are normally reserved for Haredi rabbis on MO/DL rabbis more often. Obviously, don't water down the meanings of those terms, but make it clear that more Torah scholars than just Rav Soloveitchik ZT''L stand on equal footing with the greatest of the Haredi world. I'll even give you an example to start - Religious Zionist Rishon le-Zion Ben-Zion Uzziel ZT''L was regarded by the Haredi Rishon le-Zion Mordechai Eliyahu Z''L (who of course disagreed greatly with Uzziel's lenient rulings) as one of the greatest posekim of the 20th century. For this strategy to reach its full potential, I'd recommend naming a veteran of the Hesder system who is still alive and indisputably a giant of Torah scholarship as a gadol hador. In other words, break the perception that the Hesder system is inferior. Just my two cents of course.
I was considering Hardal a subtype of Haredi, and his rulings tended to be even more conservative than ROY's, but I suppose I understand the arguments for Hardal being separate.
"And don't imagine that the charedim think that R' Soloveitchik was any sort of gadol."
Some Haredi or Haredi-adjacent people do consider R' Soloveitchik a gadol. When asked what a gadol hador was, someone who is at least Haredi adjacent came up with the examples of R' Soloveitchik and ROY.
There are so many things wrong with this article. I wasn't even going to start. But I will mention that the title of the articles is misleading. the title is:
"Pressure Us": Rabbonim from the Heart of the Litvish Community Speak on the Issue of the Draft."
First of all, without names or positions, there are no credentials. But even if they are big Rabbonim, they are not the heart of the community if their beliefs are as represented in the article. Korach was also a "Big Rav" in his own right. But he lost it by not being on the page. So if a person is not on the page, it doesn't matter what they look like on the outside. At some point (in one world or another) there will be a birur when these people will end up in the community in which they belong.
Ive said this before and ill say it again. As much as it is unjust, the only way to affect real change is to appease their leadership via bribery. The masses obey every word their leaders dictate. That is their entire MO. Any appeal to their community based on logic, reason, justice or even the very Torah they learn will fall on deaf ears.
Their leaders are drunk with power,and every man has his price. Bribe the rebbes and you'll see change. Sudden visions and dreams from the Baal Shem Tov telling them to do a 180 will magically motivate them to support the state.
So far, we have an admission that the lily-white, clean, DL have sent a bribe.
And that Rabbi Hirsch refused it.
Remind me, who is the honest one here? Jesusson thinks bribing works, because he thinks Gedolei Yisroel are the same wife-beaters as he is. Then we find out, what a chidush, that people are chosen as Gedolei Yisroel precisely because of their integrity.
Whenever I hear a story, I try and figure out what had to take place for someone to repeat this story.
In yours, here's what I hear.
Some unscrupulous individual, with no personal sense of morality, figured out a way to bribe Rabbi Hirsch as though he was some government official. He did not say a word, he merely went to him and gave him a large donation for a Yeshiva, which he gratefully accepted. Then, the mamzer opened his פי האתון and made his demands. To which Rabbi Hirsh promptly ripped up the check and told the guy where to go and how to get there.
Now this drek ball can go around saying that Rabbi Hirsh accepted a bribe and then backed down.
And his out-of-work partners on the Internet are playing in the ditch with him, repeating nonsense like that.
I returned to add that not only is that comment repulsive and based on conjecture, none of it is actually true. UTJ voted against the Disengagement plan.
But it's open season now.
The main thing is not to make fun of people's names. Making up stories about Jews? Who cares. It's not as if they were Druze army officers. Those are holy. But Charedim? Make up as much as you want.
I think the "what I hear in my mind"" should be enough to get you into a good institution . Many people there also have this great 'Hearing in their minds" and they also use cuss words!
OK, I guess I have to volunteer to be the adult here.
Look, young man: I guess no one ever explained this to you, but making silly, insulting puns on people's names while throwing out stupid libels and being sarcastic is something ten-year-olds do. Are you ten years old? Because if so, you shouldn't be here. And if not, you should try to learn how to act like a mature adult. Quickly. Until then, please stay away from those who can.
Making antisemitic slurs against Gdoley Torah is both immature and hugely asssur, and a chilul HaShem and Leytzanus.. But you don't rebuke him or Slifkin or any of the others that do that.
Let me fix this for you…making anti Zionist and anti state of israel comments is both immature and hugely assur and a chilul HaShem and applies not just to neturei karts but to all the hareidi and Hasidic leaders who have done so as well (Satmar etc.)
There is nothing assur or chilul HaShem about protesting a secular state which tries to steal the leadership of the Jewish people away from the Torah and those who know it.
Rabbi Dr. Slifkin, while I agree with many things you write, there is no way to construe this as anything other than blatant לשון הרע. If you have a public source that documents such a bribing attempt and his pulling back, post it. You cannot just comment that "Someone actually tried bribing R. Moshe Hillel Hirsch, and it seemed to be going ahead, but then it fell through." without basis, on your own hearsay. You did not see this purported bribe yourself, and even if you did, it would only be permitted to repeat the story if it was already said באפי תלתא.
I request that you either post a public record of this event or delete your comment. Put up or put out.
It is you who construed this as a bribe. Furthermore, if this is your only source, I don't understand how you can just say "with a slight distortion as to the sequence of events", as if what 'obviously' happened is that the bribe was first and then R. Hirsch said that anyone not in Yeshiva should draft. It's not *that* surprising for him to say, being that Rav Shach and the Chain Ish both said it.
And by the way, what you are calling a bribe is what the rest of the world calls "fundraising".
"then R. Hirsch said that anyone not in Yeshiva should draft. It's not *that* surprising for him to say, being that Rav Shach and the Chain Ish both said it."
"if you are marked – the girls won’t be accepted into the seminaries, you won’t receive matchmaking offers, they won’t let you continue teaching classes. You’re finished"
It's a shame to live in such fear. We were supposedly freed from slavery in Egypt to serve only God and not man, but it seems like so many people just make themselves slaves to social norms instead.
There are a lot of people who like being told what to do. Makes life simpler.
Exhibit A: The Dor Hamidbar.
They should not live in fear. If the y don't like the way the community lives, they should leave. Just like Natan did.
Don't be so self-righteous. If a member of the dati-leumi community decides to openly reject the ideals of the dati-leumi community (e.g., to live as a completely secular person) while continuing to be a member of the dati-leumi community, do you think he will get shiduchim suggestions from the dati-leumi community? Be serious.
Nobody in the DL community is going to reject a shidduch out of hand because the girl's *parents* have the wrong politics. Duh.
Either you are speaking about a limited difference in politics, or your experience in this is somewhat limited. I've seen it.
Never seen it.
And if like Chana Rachel says, it's because they have families and spouses, that is a difficult situation. People have the same problem in the other direction when they are chozer bitshuvah or Charedify and they already have families.
Sorry- That's not at all what I said.
I said that fear of G-d should take precedence over fear of man, or fear of community ostracism.
Ok. Don't remember why I thought that what I wrote here follows from what you said.
Either way, I do agree with your statement.
Their priority of fears is very unfortunate.
The far more important part of this article is the exposure of Chareidi society and culture as an empty barrel. This is very relevant to the discussion many on substack or having. See https://open.substack.com/pub/daastorah/p/a-sad-post-from-lakewood?r=33pit&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true and
https://open.substack.com/pub/ishyehudi/p/my-opinion-on-the-orthopraxy-conversation?r=33pit&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true
Ah, the old story of the rebels who can't let it go.
If I may be so bold, what he says about the way the Litvish are raised (which is really depressing) can also be seen in how they reply in comment threads to posts like these.
What he says about charedim who aren't even shomer mitzvot, let alone learn, is what Kobi Arieli wrote last week.
I'm beginning to agree with the Rebbe who earlier this year threatened to move himself and his hassidim back to Hungary.
Lithuania for Haredi Litvaks, just the same. Make my day.
And then there's this morning's news about Yitzchak Yosef shooting his mouth off again (yes, I've lost all respect at this point). Plus the haredim threatening the judicial reform coalition vote.
It's as if they all learned absolutely nothing since last year's Shmini Atzeret. Nothing!
How funny that everyone else is expected to compromise so charedim get their way, but it never goes the other way.
That's simply because "Da'as Torah" can never be compromised - not even one iota!
Thinking the same thing. The only problem I have - nothing will help get them into the army. We are all just wasting time. What don't WE understand of the meaning "I am NOT going" Only maybe this can do the trick - and that is only an "if"
! - Take away their voting rites - like someone said, let them vote spiritually
2 -No benefit at all from societies money - let them collect it themselves overseas
3- Make a separate health plan for those who don't contribute to society,
Even if they don't go - at the very least they don't dictate policy, nor take our money!
Healthy skepticism notwithstanding, I imagine there is a lot of truth in this article, and I appreciate a lot of the points.
Except the silly point about R' Chaim Vital and the Arba Yesodos - pure ignorance, both about Aristotle and about R' Chaim Vital. Lol.
This is as credible as Irrational Modixism's "letters from a Dati Leumi soldier on the battlefield"!
In their fear of being ostracized by their community, they are showing that they fear man more than they fear G-d.
The power of ostracism is real, and it would probably scare you too if you were threatened in the same way. I have only respect for the people who spoke for this article, who went out of their way to recommend economic policies that would bring hardship on themselves and their own families in order to create necessary change.
I think it's important not to judge before you're in the shoes. Isn't it possible that in addition to being ostracized by their community, which they may or may not care about, the real fear is what this will do to their spouse or children? Would you sacrifice your family for your ideals? And if you don't, would it be a fair accusation that you don't feal God sufficiently because you prioritize your family?
My family *is* sacrificing for their ideals... Two sons are in active Miluim right now, before they finish, another one goes back in for round 4 (I think, I've lost track).
It is very hard on their spouses and children, but thank G-d they are all on the same page.
If I was living in a community that didn't coincide with my ideals, I would be out of there pronto.
I think it's a different kind of sacrifice... the physical sacrifice that you do with your community, and the kind of sacrifice that would kick your family out of the community.
That being said, it's easy to leave a community with your family when you all share the same ideals and are on the same page. But if the families of these anonymous Rabbonim don't share those ideals, then they will be stuck in no man's land. No friends, no support system, no community, no marriage prospects. I'm not sure if I would be willing to do that to my family, and I certainly won't judge them for not being God fearing enough. I'll let God do the judging and for the time being, be grateful of the courage it took them to even go this far.
As they say, "...but did you DIE?"
It's one thing when the goyim consider Jewish blood hefker, but it's worse to hear it from those who are supposedly our fellow Jews. One might have thought Jews who call themselved "haredi" believed the Truth was worth sacrificing for, or that doing the will of G-d was more important than maintaining social acceptance.
Apparently not.
I can certainly relate to the [fairly common] predicament of someone believing in something deeply, but being unable to implement it because of family or other considerations. I know several people who strongly believe that they should live in Israel, but they can't because their spouse isn't "on board", or it would be objectively detrimental to their kids. This is unfortunate, could be a source of regret, but doesn't involve living a double life.
But having to "live a lie" and actually teach in a system and educate your kids in a system that is [in part] incongruent with your beliefs to avoid ostracism... I can't even imagine what that must be like. (Though I also can't imagine what Hareidi ostracism feels like)
Thank you for mentioning your personal Mitzvot. Noticing the children of the west, and their new medical and moral cliff-endings, I began to deduce that the most influence anyone can possibly have is in their own home and upon their own children. This is a vast disparity from observance of Torah values. See where it leads?
You can have the most hope and confidence in contradistinction to others because of your deeds and location of choice. You should well be envied, not criticized, by anyone with half a brain.
Correction to above: not envied. rather admired, complimented, respected.
“Merely with your eyes, you will see the retribution of the wicked…”—Tehillim, Siddur.
Which is why Yochanan Ben Zakai phrased his advice the way he did.
Bringing understanding via knowledge of unknowables is part of a path toward peace.
"...Haredi header yeshiva..."
Was that supposed to be hesder?
"Your rabbis recognize this superiority. No Zionist rabbi would erase the Haredi gedolei hador."
Interesting turn of phrase. This implies that there is at least in part a battlefield of perception. So, work to change that perception. Use terms like "Gaon," "gadol," and "gadol hador" that are normally reserved for Haredi rabbis on MO/DL rabbis more often. Obviously, don't water down the meanings of those terms, but make it clear that more Torah scholars than just Rav Soloveitchik ZT''L stand on equal footing with the greatest of the Haredi world. I'll even give you an example to start - Religious Zionist Rishon le-Zion Ben-Zion Uzziel ZT''L was regarded by the Haredi Rishon le-Zion Mordechai Eliyahu Z''L (who of course disagreed greatly with Uzziel's lenient rulings) as one of the greatest posekim of the 20th century. For this strategy to reach its full potential, I'd recommend naming a veteran of the Hesder system who is still alive and indisputably a giant of Torah scholarship as a gadol hador. In other words, break the perception that the Hesder system is inferior. Just my two cents of course.
I would hardly call R' Eliyahu "Haredi."
And don't imagine that the charedim think that R' Soloveitchik was any sort of gadol.
"I would hardly call R' Eliyahu "Haredi.""
I was considering Hardal a subtype of Haredi, and his rulings tended to be even more conservative than ROY's, but I suppose I understand the arguments for Hardal being separate.
"And don't imagine that the charedim think that R' Soloveitchik was any sort of gadol."
Some Haredi or Haredi-adjacent people do consider R' Soloveitchik a gadol. When asked what a gadol hador was, someone who is at least Haredi adjacent came up with the examples of R' Soloveitchik and ROY.
There are so many things wrong with this article. I wasn't even going to start. But I will mention that the title of the articles is misleading. the title is:
"Pressure Us": Rabbonim from the Heart of the Litvish Community Speak on the Issue of the Draft."
First of all, without names or positions, there are no credentials. But even if they are big Rabbonim, they are not the heart of the community if their beliefs are as represented in the article. Korach was also a "Big Rav" in his own right. But he lost it by not being on the page. So if a person is not on the page, it doesn't matter what they look like on the outside. At some point (in one world or another) there will be a birur when these people will end up in the community in which they belong.
Ive said this before and ill say it again. As much as it is unjust, the only way to affect real change is to appease their leadership via bribery. The masses obey every word their leaders dictate. That is their entire MO. Any appeal to their community based on logic, reason, justice or even the very Torah they learn will fall on deaf ears.
Their leaders are drunk with power,and every man has his price. Bribe the rebbes and you'll see change. Sudden visions and dreams from the Baal Shem Tov telling them to do a 180 will magically motivate them to support the state.
Someone actually tried bribing R. Moshe Hillel Hirsch, and it seemed to be going ahead, but then it fell through.
So far, we have an admission that the lily-white, clean, DL have sent a bribe.
And that Rabbi Hirsch refused it.
Remind me, who is the honest one here? Jesusson thinks bribing works, because he thinks Gedolei Yisroel are the same wife-beaters as he is. Then we find out, what a chidush, that people are chosen as Gedolei Yisroel precisely because of their integrity.
Glad we cleared that up.
Actually, it was someone in the American charedi world who offered a bribe. And R. Hirsh accepted. But he later backed down.
Whenever I hear a story, I try and figure out what had to take place for someone to repeat this story.
In yours, here's what I hear.
Some unscrupulous individual, with no personal sense of morality, figured out a way to bribe Rabbi Hirsch as though he was some government official. He did not say a word, he merely went to him and gave him a large donation for a Yeshiva, which he gratefully accepted. Then, the mamzer opened his פי האתון and made his demands. To which Rabbi Hirsh promptly ripped up the check and told the guy where to go and how to get there.
Now this drek ball can go around saying that Rabbi Hirsh accepted a bribe and then backed down.
And his out-of-work partners on the Internet are playing in the ditch with him, repeating nonsense like that.
Not sure why it's so hard to believe. The charedim sold out Gaza in exchange for money for yeshivos.
And they drown puppies.
I returned to add that not only is that comment repulsive and based on conjecture, none of it is actually true. UTJ voted against the Disengagement plan.
But it's open season now.
The main thing is not to make fun of people's names. Making up stories about Jews? Who cares. It's not as if they were Druze army officers. Those are holy. But Charedim? Make up as much as you want.
How do you know the claim you just made??
I think the "what I hear in my mind"" should be enough to get you into a good institution . Many people there also have this great 'Hearing in their minds" and they also use cuss words!
OK, I guess I have to volunteer to be the adult here.
Look, young man: I guess no one ever explained this to you, but making silly, insulting puns on people's names while throwing out stupid libels and being sarcastic is something ten-year-olds do. Are you ten years old? Because if so, you shouldn't be here. And if not, you should try to learn how to act like a mature adult. Quickly. Until then, please stay away from those who can.
Not to mention, המכנה את חברו אין לו חלק לעולם הבא
This "Zundel Eysheshoker" is literally not going to olam haba and it doesn't bother him. Some faith
Making antisemitic slurs against Gdoley Torah is both immature and hugely asssur, and a chilul HaShem and Leytzanus.. But you don't rebuke him or Slifkin or any of the others that do that.
Let me fix this for you…making anti Zionist and anti state of israel comments is both immature and hugely assur and a chilul HaShem and applies not just to neturei karts but to all the hareidi and Hasidic leaders who have done so as well (Satmar etc.)
You are making up your own religion.
There is nothing assur or chilul HaShem about protesting a secular state which tries to steal the leadership of the Jewish people away from the Torah and those who know it.
Rabbi Dr. Slifkin, while I agree with many things you write, there is no way to construe this as anything other than blatant לשון הרע. If you have a public source that documents such a bribing attempt and his pulling back, post it. You cannot just comment that "Someone actually tried bribing R. Moshe Hillel Hirsch, and it seemed to be going ahead, but then it fell through." without basis, on your own hearsay. You did not see this purported bribe yourself, and even if you did, it would only be permitted to repeat the story if it was already said באפי תלתא.
I request that you either post a public record of this event or delete your comment. Put up or put out.
It's actually public, albeit with a slight distortion as to the sequence of events. https://vinnews.com/2024/10/01/rabbi-moshe-hillel-hirsch-charedi-youths-who-are-not-in-yeshiva-should-enlist-in-idf/
It is you who construed this as a bribe. Furthermore, if this is your only source, I don't understand how you can just say "with a slight distortion as to the sequence of events", as if what 'obviously' happened is that the bribe was first and then R. Hirsch said that anyone not in Yeshiva should draft. It's not *that* surprising for him to say, being that Rav Shach and the Chain Ish both said it.
And by the way, what you are calling a bribe is what the rest of the world calls "fundraising".
This is not my source, I have much better sources.
Nonetheless, it is לשון הרע. You do not know firsthand, and even if you did, all you are saying is "it's true, so why can't I say it".
"then R. Hirsch said that anyone not in Yeshiva should draft. It's not *that* surprising for him to say, being that Rav Shach and the Chain Ish both said it."
Ok, so why don't they agree to be drafted?
Unrelated to my comment, which was that it is textbook לשון הרע to say that R. Hirsch was bribed.
As for the actual content, I indeed agree that they should draft, הלואי. For the sociology of why they won't draft that is not vitriolic, see basically any article written on Tzarich Iyun, and specifically here: https://iyun.org.il/en/sedersheni/charedi-army-service-a-matter-of-jewish-belonging/
The words of Rav Shach and other Gedolim can be found here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Bm0vUvTVdSerKL_vENFwlrYUOhFqRECK?usp=drive_link
Bribe the Rebbes?? A chlonei that gets a draft notice should reply - Bribe my father.
How stupid have we gotten. We seem to be going off the rail.
So are ours.
What, promise them their kids will be exempt?