There are issues which mature adults can disagree about like mature adults. Today there are also issues in which taking a certain position by definition pretty much disqualifies a person from the "mature adult" category and from being deserving of any respectable leadership role. For example, a big issue in America now is whether high school boys who "identify" as female should be allowed to play competitive sports against actual, biological high school girls. I presume everyone reading Rabbi Slifkin's blog will consider it utterly foolish to allow such a thing and completely unnecessary to explain why.........and 80% of Americans agree. But guess what, Democrats aren't convinced, and this was among the reasons why Trump won. The Democrats are simply not living in reality and enough Americans realized this and voted accordingly.
It has become the same for the chareidim. Their positions are so inane, so silly, so childish, so extreme, etc...They have left reality. They cannot be taken seriously, they are not leaders, and they do not deserve anyone's respect.
Speaking the truth is not ‘sinas chinam’ and G-d only knows the Charedi leaders who don’t give two figs about secular or Dati Jews seem to engage in plenty of it themselves. Forgive me if I am fed up with the sheer arrogance and hypocrisy emanating from these holier than thou people. The same thing was being said regarding sexual abuse of children. The only people making the situation worse are the leaders of themselves.
Someone's been telling me to stop commenting here, because you're just too rabid to be sensible. You always make excellent points that are 100% justified and then take them one giant step too far into hatred, destructiveness, sinas chinam, divisiveness and generally making a terrible situation worse instead of better. Why do you have to take that last step every time? Why can't you be a voice of reason that can represent the dignity of the Torah instead of the lashing out of the agrieved? To connect it to the animal world, you seem like a king cobra waiting in a bamboo thicket to pounce every time it's prey becomes vulnerable. Is that really the kind of person you are? Almost everything you right sounds like you're a real mensch I could respect and be friends with. But the rest is inexcusable.
Your major "critique", in all your comments in the last few posts, is on the tone. R' Slifkin is "rabid" and "lashing". He "seem[s] like a king cobra waiting in a bamboo thicket to pounce every time it's prey becomes vulnerable."
This is yet another pointless ad hominem. It's also highly ironic for you to critique tone, when the tone of your critiques have been far harsher than R' Slifkin's writing.
As for your substantive critique, it seems to boil down to your anecdote in the other comment: "well, R' Shmuel Auerbach was a nice person". Well, sure. It's a complete strawman to critique the claim that charedim aren't "nice people".
You also say in the other comment: "When you claim they see other's lives as less than theirs you claim they are evil and not just stupid and callous and indifferent to the burden on people they think caused their own problem (though that's clearly not a good excuse)." Well yes, they're evil, because the outcome of their actions (or inactions) cause tremendous harm. As is well-known, there's no such as thing in real life as the Hollywood cartoonish "villain". Any person doing evil has very good explanations, even (and especially) those doing the most monstrous evil. In their eyes, they're the tzadikim.
Take Peter singer's famous example: someone sees a baby drowning in a pool of water. He can easily save the baby, but he just bought a nice suit, and it would ruin the suit, so he lets the baby drown. Most reasonable people would say that that person is indeed callous, and callous to the point of being evil.
Let's use this analogy also on your other major counterexample, in your other comment:
>"I was with you until the last line - "Relative to charedi lives, non-charedi lives just don’t matter." Did you see b'chadrei charedim after 10/7? The headline was מעי מעי על חלליהם, a line from mourning the churban of Yerushalayim in Nachem, with an outpouring of sincere grief though almost all those who were killed were secular and soldiers. "
Let's say this person watching the baby drowning, in Singer's thought experiment, started crying profusely, very sad about the death of the baby. Would you say: "oh, he's clearly a nice guy, he's very sad about the death of the baby, he just also happens to unfortunately prioritize his nice suit". Most reasonable people would say that no, this guy is monstrous. Talk and emotions are cheap, when they're disconnected from any action
I was with you until the last line - "Relative to charedi lives, non-charedi lives just don’t matter."
Did you see b'chadrei charedim after 10/7? The headline was מעי מעי על חלליהם, a line from mourning the churban of Yerushalayim in Nachem, with an outpouring of sincere grief though almost all those who were killed were secular and soldiers.
The rest of your post was right and you've made the missing point before: They believe (yes, maybe convinced themselves they believe but their society is based on this belief) that if everyone was charedi there would be no danger and no need for an army and those crazy Zionists are the cause of this mess so dealing with it is their problem, not ours.
You can be a decent person deserving of respect and believe that, as inanely foolish as it is to anyone with a basic education (which they don't have). When you claim they see other's lives as less than theirs you claim they are evil and not just stupid and callous and indifferent to the burden on people they think caused their own problem (though that's clearly not a good excuse). And then you cause people to see charedi lives as less valuable, and you're as bad as you claim they are.
To give but one example - nearly four THOUSAND reservists have called the IDF suicide hotline. Tell this to a charedi rabbi and see if he cares to do something about it
The article you posted from mekor rishon answers this as does the majority of what you wrote, which I agree with. They deal with their problems and the rest of the country deals with their problems. It's not that they don't care, it's that they've seceded from the rest of society. The horrifying part is that they expect to be supported and they don't care about the unprecedented chillul Hashem. You always say the right things - you just always add gratuitous accusations that go too far.
I'm an example of someone who would love to be able to support you and spread your message to make more people more aware of the tragic situation. But you take it beyond the fair and true depiction most people can't help but recognize to a picture that's just not fair and easy to reject.
Agreed. But that's not what your last line was about. In the context of that letter, you were saying they distinguish halachically between the life of a charedi and the life of a non charedi. That non charedi lives don't matter to them. What about Yad Sarah and Zaka and so many other non-political examples of how charedim treat everyone with equal care and concern? The army and the state is all political and they've staked out a deplorable position on that. But from their point of view, it is unfortunate that it affects individuals the way it does; they are just too idealistic about their beliefs to do anything about. I hate it too. But it's not about non charedi lives. It's about the tragic evolution, as you described, of a leadership structure becoming more and more insular, and increasingly afraid of the whole soul-destroying, smartphone (gevalt!) world they see out there, to the point of becoming secessionists.
Bottom line: it's political/ideological and not personal and that is a categorical difference that demands to be recognized.
And for those who keep using the Zaka example to demonstrate that Charedim actually 'care', there was a quote recently in one of the Dati Leumi newspapers: Why is it ok for us to be the ones to go in in IDF uniform and they get to carry us out in body bags.....
Agree in principle but the vast majority of Zaka's activities are for civilians. And I didn't even mention hatzala. I'm not justifying their position, I'm trying to address the excess in the attack. They do care for non-charedim and are moser nefesh in their own way for them. They just can't even think in national terms that engage the modern realities of life and the need to take mesiras nefesh to a whole new place. In the shtetl, there were no Jewish armies and they're still in that mind space.
You are missing RNS' point. He is arguing that Haredim - *by their in/actions* - are putting the lives of others (dati llúmi et al soldiers and reservists that have to do more as a result) at risk even if it is just - as you say - unintentionally!
Perhaps the gap between you and Rabbi Slifkin is that he is speaking of the Rabbinnic leadership and its followers while your examples of haredim are either from haredi internet sites (which these leaders condemn) and from the less than one percent who are part of the chessed organizations you mention, almost all of whose members are self selecting relative moderates. (Many, many are chutznikim). They are not representative of Haredi leaders nor the haredi majority.
Completely disagree about the facts. As one representative example, RNS himself was neighbors with Rav Shmuel Aurbach and found him to be a wonderful person he admired though he was the leader of the more extreme charedi faction that refused to even report to the army pro forma for an exemption. As leaders and ideologues, charedim can take extreme and offensive positions but can still be good people who appreciate and respect others.
Yes, there is no shortage of charedim who will spit on people they disrespect, etc. but they are a minority. The vast majority just keep to themselves and try to be good people and follow their community's values.
Are you saying that on a personal level independent of his beliefs or because his beliefs reflect to you someone who must not be a good person? Do you see a difference?
Sorry, it’s not the ‘minority’, it’s the majority of Charedi men. I guess you missed the mass demonstrations against the draft that disrupted the country a few weeks ago😼
I don't even think RNS would agree with you. The masses showed up because the leadership told them to and they oppose the draft. It doesn't mean they look down on non charedim. Come on.
But your issue is the last line, "Relative to charedi lives, non-charedi lives just don’t matter," and it does not seem to me that this rules out their being good people who follow their community's values.
And those values -- coming from (unquestioned, leading Rabbonim and haredi representatives to Knesset) -- are what is being discussed here, specifically as regards to ideologically-driven lack of empathy for those who do serve.
Do you doubt that there is a relative lack of empathy and that it is ideologically-driven by how haredi leaders define what it means to be haredi?
I disagree with your first paragraph - I think it does rule it out - but I don't doubt what your say in your last paragraph. They live with what to anyone outside their sphere seems like an impossible cognitive dissonance but they manage it. To them, it is the most fundamental truth that they are charedim - completely removed from all the worldly concerns that are all stuff and nonsense and a waste of a moment's thought. The natural empathy they would feel for a person in front of them, charedi or not, cannot penetrate this core of their existence and so they go along with their lifestyle, most of them good, decent caring people in theory that doesn't get translated to the human reality outside the massive iron walls they've built around their world.
The fact is that they do see the lives of secular and Dati Jews as less than theirs because they wrongly believe that they are better and ‘holier’. If they didn’t have these arrogant, elitist attitudes they’d be telling their students to enlist in the Charedi units. Their behaviour is a Chilul HaShem.
Like the OP, you had me until the last line. Why go that far? Why can't they still deserve respect as human beings who believe in what they're doing and, for the most part, make enormous sacrifices for it? Why can't you vehemently disagree and still believe they deserve respect? Do you know enough of them personally to make that declaration?
Outside Israel, they can do whatever they want, and stay in Kollel as long as they want assuming their community funds it. However, here in Israel, their behavior directly impacts my family, and the country as a whole.
If someone is living a lifestyle that directly hurts me (and the manpower shortage in Tzahal is a life threatening situation, not to speak of the measles outbreak, and the effect of Hareidi under-employment on the economy), I don't have to "respect" the people who are living that lifestyle
Ask your Rav if he agrees. Most dati leumi rabbanim I've heard, and I admit it's not many, guide people to accept their anger and frustration but always try to respect other Jews, whatever their beliefs. This is not a personal decision. As far as they are concerned, they live just as far outside the state of Israel as someone in Saskatchewan. They deny the validity of the whole project and refuse to have what they see as the purpose of creation derailed by an attempt to turn the true Judaism into some nationlistic nonsense like all the other nations.
I don't agree with them and find their callousness and many other of their views, midos and positions appalling, but I know them and their history well enough to recognize how the defensible trajectory they started on ended up in this awful place. They're not evil and they deserve respect and you deserve to be deeply angry and even to refuse to forgive them. But respect and personal dignity in treating most of them (not the lowlifes who steal hostage imagery, spit on women who didn't meet their dress standards and cross all lines of decency) is still appropriate.
I was on a bus midday today from Jerusalem to my home in the Shfela. About a quarter of the passengers were young Chareidi men..draft age or a little younger. They were well behaved, but of the 10-12 that I could see, some were sitting quietly, some were using their phones, some were talking, but NOT A SINGLE ONE HAD ANY SORT OF SEFER OPEN.
On the other hand, I was learning Mishnayot, and a chiloni-looking lady across the aisle was reciting Tehillim.
I didn't criticize them, lecture them, or yell. If that's your definition of respect, of course I respected them..I don't pick ideological battles on a bus with strangers.
But do I see much that deserves to be emulated? not really.
and my Rav-- He had "over a minyan" of grandchildren in Gaza the first year of the war...He also wouldn't pick fights with strangers on a bus, but he is highly frustrated at Chareidi draft evasion
Respect does not mean emulate, nor does disrespect mean starting up. It simply means having a generally positive view of otherwise decent people, even if they somehow hold views that you find horrifying. In this world, people are affected by their hearts (feelings, empathy, care), minds (beliefs, analysis, strategies and predictions) and bodies (selfishness) - as well as their communities and authorities in ways they can't even recognize let alone control. You have a choice. You can presume people have good hearts and are not selfish but hold beliefs that are simply mistaken or you can assume they are selfish and uncaring (or any balance in between, with these of course being gross oversimplifications to make a point). Having a lev tov, according to many opinions, means having a generally positive attitude about people and wishing them well. This should lead to respecting them as people struggling along in life with all these different influences. You can conclude their beliefs that guide their actions are deplorable but you can still respect them as individuals unless and until you discover they are actually selfish and uncaring - and even then wonder how much is their own fault and how much is due to their society and history.
The best test is usually to image your own son or other relative coming to believe the charedi view is correct, knowing he is otherwise a dinner person but being mystified how he believe such things. You'd still love him and respect him, even if you'd be angry and tend to argue vehemently.
Telling other Jews that your sons should prepare to die in battle but not my sons is so far removed from Torah- Halacha that they are a sad parody.There is nothing more callous
A Ben Torah must know his own chiyuvim
Their is no excuse “ my Rebbie said I’m not obligated to keep shabbat, to lat תפילין, to go to battle when enemies are slaughtering Jews in the Holy Land
When an edict is issued that contradicts the מקורות , one is obligated to question the edict
Where is the written תשובה with all the Lomdus that Halacha requires to defend their all inclusive sweeping edicts ? Ask for it in writing
They know they have no rigorous halachicaly defensible position
There are issues which mature adults can disagree about like mature adults. Today there are also issues in which taking a certain position by definition pretty much disqualifies a person from the "mature adult" category and from being deserving of any respectable leadership role. For example, a big issue in America now is whether high school boys who "identify" as female should be allowed to play competitive sports against actual, biological high school girls. I presume everyone reading Rabbi Slifkin's blog will consider it utterly foolish to allow such a thing and completely unnecessary to explain why.........and 80% of Americans agree. But guess what, Democrats aren't convinced, and this was among the reasons why Trump won. The Democrats are simply not living in reality and enough Americans realized this and voted accordingly.
It has become the same for the chareidim. Their positions are so inane, so silly, so childish, so extreme, etc...They have left reality. They cannot be taken seriously, they are not leaders, and they do not deserve anyone's respect.
Speaking the truth is not ‘sinas chinam’ and G-d only knows the Charedi leaders who don’t give two figs about secular or Dati Jews seem to engage in plenty of it themselves. Forgive me if I am fed up with the sheer arrogance and hypocrisy emanating from these holier than thou people. The same thing was being said regarding sexual abuse of children. The only people making the situation worse are the leaders of themselves.
Funny how anyone points out the truth and facts the defenders of the Charedi name call with ‘rabid’, ‘sinas chinam’
Someone's been telling me to stop commenting here, because you're just too rabid to be sensible. You always make excellent points that are 100% justified and then take them one giant step too far into hatred, destructiveness, sinas chinam, divisiveness and generally making a terrible situation worse instead of better. Why do you have to take that last step every time? Why can't you be a voice of reason that can represent the dignity of the Torah instead of the lashing out of the agrieved? To connect it to the animal world, you seem like a king cobra waiting in a bamboo thicket to pounce every time it's prey becomes vulnerable. Is that really the kind of person you are? Almost everything you right sounds like you're a real mensch I could respect and be friends with. But the rest is inexcusable.
Your major "critique", in all your comments in the last few posts, is on the tone. R' Slifkin is "rabid" and "lashing". He "seem[s] like a king cobra waiting in a bamboo thicket to pounce every time it's prey becomes vulnerable."
This is yet another pointless ad hominem. It's also highly ironic for you to critique tone, when the tone of your critiques have been far harsher than R' Slifkin's writing.
As for your substantive critique, it seems to boil down to your anecdote in the other comment: "well, R' Shmuel Auerbach was a nice person". Well, sure. It's a complete strawman to critique the claim that charedim aren't "nice people".
You also say in the other comment: "When you claim they see other's lives as less than theirs you claim they are evil and not just stupid and callous and indifferent to the burden on people they think caused their own problem (though that's clearly not a good excuse)." Well yes, they're evil, because the outcome of their actions (or inactions) cause tremendous harm. As is well-known, there's no such as thing in real life as the Hollywood cartoonish "villain". Any person doing evil has very good explanations, even (and especially) those doing the most monstrous evil. In their eyes, they're the tzadikim.
Take Peter singer's famous example: someone sees a baby drowning in a pool of water. He can easily save the baby, but he just bought a nice suit, and it would ruin the suit, so he lets the baby drown. Most reasonable people would say that that person is indeed callous, and callous to the point of being evil.
Let's use this analogy also on your other major counterexample, in your other comment:
>"I was with you until the last line - "Relative to charedi lives, non-charedi lives just don’t matter." Did you see b'chadrei charedim after 10/7? The headline was מעי מעי על חלליהם, a line from mourning the churban of Yerushalayim in Nachem, with an outpouring of sincere grief though almost all those who were killed were secular and soldiers. "
Let's say this person watching the baby drowning, in Singer's thought experiment, started crying profusely, very sad about the death of the baby. Would you say: "oh, he's clearly a nice guy, he's very sad about the death of the baby, he just also happens to unfortunately prioritize his nice suit". Most reasonable people would say that no, this guy is monstrous. Talk and emotions are cheap, when they're disconnected from any action
I was with you until the last line - "Relative to charedi lives, non-charedi lives just don’t matter."
Did you see b'chadrei charedim after 10/7? The headline was מעי מעי על חלליהם, a line from mourning the churban of Yerushalayim in Nachem, with an outpouring of sincere grief though almost all those who were killed were secular and soldiers.
The rest of your post was right and you've made the missing point before: They believe (yes, maybe convinced themselves they believe but their society is based on this belief) that if everyone was charedi there would be no danger and no need for an army and those crazy Zionists are the cause of this mess so dealing with it is their problem, not ours.
You can be a decent person deserving of respect and believe that, as inanely foolish as it is to anyone with a basic education (which they don't have). When you claim they see other's lives as less than theirs you claim they are evil and not just stupid and callous and indifferent to the burden on people they think caused their own problem (though that's clearly not a good excuse). And then you cause people to see charedi lives as less valuable, and you're as bad as you claim they are.
Come on. Do I really need to list all the examples of how little they care?! The rabbinic leadership never once evinces the slightest concern.
To give but one example - nearly four THOUSAND reservists have called the IDF suicide hotline. Tell this to a charedi rabbi and see if he cares to do something about it
The article you posted from mekor rishon answers this as does the majority of what you wrote, which I agree with. They deal with their problems and the rest of the country deals with their problems. It's not that they don't care, it's that they've seceded from the rest of society. The horrifying part is that they expect to be supported and they don't care about the unprecedented chillul Hashem. You always say the right things - you just always add gratuitous accusations that go too far.
I'm an example of someone who would love to be able to support you and spread your message to make more people more aware of the tragic situation. But you take it beyond the fair and true depiction most people can't help but recognize to a picture that's just not fair and easy to reject.
Agreed. But that's not what your last line was about. In the context of that letter, you were saying they distinguish halachically between the life of a charedi and the life of a non charedi. That non charedi lives don't matter to them. What about Yad Sarah and Zaka and so many other non-political examples of how charedim treat everyone with equal care and concern? The army and the state is all political and they've staked out a deplorable position on that. But from their point of view, it is unfortunate that it affects individuals the way it does; they are just too idealistic about their beliefs to do anything about. I hate it too. But it's not about non charedi lives. It's about the tragic evolution, as you described, of a leadership structure becoming more and more insular, and increasingly afraid of the whole soul-destroying, smartphone (gevalt!) world they see out there, to the point of becoming secessionists.
Bottom line: it's political/ideological and not personal and that is a categorical difference that demands to be recognized.
And for those who keep using the Zaka example to demonstrate that Charedim actually 'care', there was a quote recently in one of the Dati Leumi newspapers: Why is it ok for us to be the ones to go in in IDF uniform and they get to carry us out in body bags.....
I think that says it all.
Agree in principle but the vast majority of Zaka's activities are for civilians. And I didn't even mention hatzala. I'm not justifying their position, I'm trying to address the excess in the attack. They do care for non-charedim and are moser nefesh in their own way for them. They just can't even think in national terms that engage the modern realities of life and the need to take mesiras nefesh to a whole new place. In the shtetl, there were no Jewish armies and they're still in that mind space.
"moser nefesh in their own way" lol. Nice sleight of hand
Did you even read the rest of the comment? I disparaged that - I just pointed out their mindset.
You are missing RNS' point. He is arguing that Haredim - *by their in/actions* - are putting the lives of others (dati llúmi et al soldiers and reservists that have to do more as a result) at risk even if it is just - as you say - unintentionally!
Perhaps the gap between you and Rabbi Slifkin is that he is speaking of the Rabbinnic leadership and its followers while your examples of haredim are either from haredi internet sites (which these leaders condemn) and from the less than one percent who are part of the chessed organizations you mention, almost all of whose members are self selecting relative moderates. (Many, many are chutznikim). They are not representative of Haredi leaders nor the haredi majority.
Completely disagree about the facts. As one representative example, RNS himself was neighbors with Rav Shmuel Aurbach and found him to be a wonderful person he admired though he was the leader of the more extreme charedi faction that refused to even report to the army pro forma for an exemption. As leaders and ideologues, charedim can take extreme and offensive positions but can still be good people who appreciate and respect others.
Yes, there is no shortage of charedim who will spit on people they disrespect, etc. but they are a minority. The vast majority just keep to themselves and try to be good people and follow their community's values.
R. Shmuel Auerbach was friendly to me (as a charedi yeshiva student). Was he a good person? No.
Are you saying that on a personal level independent of his beliefs or because his beliefs reflect to you someone who must not be a good person? Do you see a difference?
Sorry, it’s not the ‘minority’, it’s the majority of Charedi men. I guess you missed the mass demonstrations against the draft that disrupted the country a few weeks ago😼
I don't even think RNS would agree with you. The masses showed up because the leadership told them to and they oppose the draft. It doesn't mean they look down on non charedim. Come on.
Agreed.
But your issue is the last line, "Relative to charedi lives, non-charedi lives just don’t matter," and it does not seem to me that this rules out their being good people who follow their community's values.
And those values -- coming from (unquestioned, leading Rabbonim and haredi representatives to Knesset) -- are what is being discussed here, specifically as regards to ideologically-driven lack of empathy for those who do serve.
Do you doubt that there is a relative lack of empathy and that it is ideologically-driven by how haredi leaders define what it means to be haredi?
I disagree with your first paragraph - I think it does rule it out - but I don't doubt what your say in your last paragraph. They live with what to anyone outside their sphere seems like an impossible cognitive dissonance but they manage it. To them, it is the most fundamental truth that they are charedim - completely removed from all the worldly concerns that are all stuff and nonsense and a waste of a moment's thought. The natural empathy they would feel for a person in front of them, charedi or not, cannot penetrate this core of their existence and so they go along with their lifestyle, most of them good, decent caring people in theory that doesn't get translated to the human reality outside the massive iron walls they've built around their world.
The fact is that they do see the lives of secular and Dati Jews as less than theirs because they wrongly believe that they are better and ‘holier’. If they didn’t have these arrogant, elitist attitudes they’d be telling their students to enlist in the Charedi units. Their behaviour is a Chilul HaShem.
I disagree that that would make a difference but I might agree to the rest, depending on what you mean by "less." See my last reply to RNS
More proof that the Haredim are no longer Jewish, just like the Christians stopped being Jewish 1900 years ago.
Like the OP, you had me until the last line. Why go that far? Why can't they still deserve respect as human beings who believe in what they're doing and, for the most part, make enormous sacrifices for it? Why can't you vehemently disagree and still believe they deserve respect? Do you know enough of them personally to make that declaration?
Outside Israel, they can do whatever they want, and stay in Kollel as long as they want assuming their community funds it. However, here in Israel, their behavior directly impacts my family, and the country as a whole.
If someone is living a lifestyle that directly hurts me (and the manpower shortage in Tzahal is a life threatening situation, not to speak of the measles outbreak, and the effect of Hareidi under-employment on the economy), I don't have to "respect" the people who are living that lifestyle
Ask your Rav if he agrees. Most dati leumi rabbanim I've heard, and I admit it's not many, guide people to accept their anger and frustration but always try to respect other Jews, whatever their beliefs. This is not a personal decision. As far as they are concerned, they live just as far outside the state of Israel as someone in Saskatchewan. They deny the validity of the whole project and refuse to have what they see as the purpose of creation derailed by an attempt to turn the true Judaism into some nationlistic nonsense like all the other nations.
I don't agree with them and find their callousness and many other of their views, midos and positions appalling, but I know them and their history well enough to recognize how the defensible trajectory they started on ended up in this awful place. They're not evil and they deserve respect and you deserve to be deeply angry and even to refuse to forgive them. But respect and personal dignity in treating most of them (not the lowlifes who steal hostage imagery, spit on women who didn't meet their dress standards and cross all lines of decency) is still appropriate.
Depends on how you define respect.
I was on a bus midday today from Jerusalem to my home in the Shfela. About a quarter of the passengers were young Chareidi men..draft age or a little younger. They were well behaved, but of the 10-12 that I could see, some were sitting quietly, some were using their phones, some were talking, but NOT A SINGLE ONE HAD ANY SORT OF SEFER OPEN.
On the other hand, I was learning Mishnayot, and a chiloni-looking lady across the aisle was reciting Tehillim.
I didn't criticize them, lecture them, or yell. If that's your definition of respect, of course I respected them..I don't pick ideological battles on a bus with strangers.
But do I see much that deserves to be emulated? not really.
and my Rav-- He had "over a minyan" of grandchildren in Gaza the first year of the war...He also wouldn't pick fights with strangers on a bus, but he is highly frustrated at Chareidi draft evasion
Respect does not mean emulate, nor does disrespect mean starting up. It simply means having a generally positive view of otherwise decent people, even if they somehow hold views that you find horrifying. In this world, people are affected by their hearts (feelings, empathy, care), minds (beliefs, analysis, strategies and predictions) and bodies (selfishness) - as well as their communities and authorities in ways they can't even recognize let alone control. You have a choice. You can presume people have good hearts and are not selfish but hold beliefs that are simply mistaken or you can assume they are selfish and uncaring (or any balance in between, with these of course being gross oversimplifications to make a point). Having a lev tov, according to many opinions, means having a generally positive attitude about people and wishing them well. This should lead to respecting them as people struggling along in life with all these different influences. You can conclude their beliefs that guide their actions are deplorable but you can still respect them as individuals unless and until you discover they are actually selfish and uncaring - and even then wonder how much is their own fault and how much is due to their society and history.
The best test is usually to image your own son or other relative coming to believe the charedi view is correct, knowing he is otherwise a dinner person but being mystified how he believe such things. You'd still love him and respect him, even if you'd be angry and tend to argue vehemently.
*decent person, not dinner person
Telling other Jews that your sons should prepare to die in battle but not my sons is so far removed from Torah- Halacha that they are a sad parody.There is nothing more callous
A Ben Torah must know his own chiyuvim
Their is no excuse “ my Rebbie said I’m not obligated to keep shabbat, to lat תפילין, to go to battle when enemies are slaughtering Jews in the Holy Land
When an edict is issued that contradicts the מקורות , one is obligated to question the edict
Where is the written תשובה with all the Lomdus that Halacha requires to defend their all inclusive sweeping edicts ? Ask for it in writing
They know they have no rigorous halachicaly defensible position