It's interesting that the people arguing with my post are claiming that the army is nevertheless too spiritually dangerous. They aren't claiming that Rabbeinu Bechaya and Sefer HaChinnuch are wrong.
Alright, Natan. We get it that you're excited about these sources, which hareidim usually venerate. Obviously, the position about needing to do hishtadlus for self defense, in general, is not foreign to traditional Jewish thought. But as the Chinnuch puts it: "Even in Israel’s fighting of a war commanded by the word of God ..." - the emphasis on divine command must be understood. Just like Rab' Y. Ben Zakai chose to prioritize learning over absolute hishtadlus for self-defense, there have always been disputes re. what to prioritize when "a war commanded by the word of God" is not so clear.
Don't you know how to learn? The point he is making is that EVEN THOUGH God told them to fight, they STILL could not rely on God's help. Kal v'chomer if you don't have an explicit instruction by God!
The arrogance of your Litvishe learning background is having a ball, eh. What toeles do you find in such a put-down?
I also understood the Chinnuch's pt about not being סומך על הנס even when H' explicitly tells you to fight. It's a virtually context free klal. But I don't see your קל וחומר to the extent you do. Yes, we should certainly not rely on miracles when we have no idea if H' is explicitly guiding us, but that doesnt mean we should make obviously DANGEROUS decisions in those situations. Where we invest our hishtadlus now has many more options, including into those mitzvos which are more likely to arouse His favor.
You really wanna do a havrusa, eh. Alright - here goes:
1. He starts with noting that "most ppl" don't merit nessim to protect them, DUE TO THEIR SINS. I.e. if it wasn't for our lack of proper avoida, normative hishtadlus would NOT be the right course of action, and conversely, if there is someone, or a group, who believe they're on that level, relying on nissim is quite reasonable.
2. Plenty of sfarim kedoshim suggest the above is what drove the Hashmonaiim to enter a war which ONLY a nes could assure their success.
3. Others emphasize horaas shaa, that since there was not any viable alternative to winning this war, in terms of keeping Judaism alive and well, it HAD to be that H' would provide a nes for those who courageously fought for those aims.
4. As for your claim that hishtadlus never means mitzvos but natural physical action and logical strategies... I don't know what your proof is. Using natural means is a MITZVAH for those who can't presume their merits will qualify for a miracle. And when those natural means don't seem so reliable, the mitzvah of PRAYER is considered hishtadlus. As in krias YS.
5. Its my impression that those rabbonim who say serious full time learning for those who can is of parallel value to that of our soldiers in the IDF, they understand it in terms of the HISHTADLUS in learning.
i.e. no serious hareidi rav (at least not the ones I respect) says to completely ignore the dangers that our national enemies are presenting, and just go about your business - learning, working, shmoozing - as if we had already reached Yaacov Avinu's shalva! Rather, they're saying that those who can should BE A SOLDIER IN LEARNING.
Dispute the wisdom in that. But don't deny their Torah based right to make that choice.
You're right. That's the big contradiction that we'd all like to see resolved. But upon sincere reflection, it becomes clear that their resistance to sharing the burden of national self defense is not really about emmuna & hishtadlus, but concern for the spiritual affect of army service. It m-a-y work for the dati and Hardal crowds, but would be devastating to the hareidi devotional scheme of life, which they believe, of course, is a crucial need for the NATION. Have you noticed, btw, they haredim don't proselytize? They're not saying they'd want the entire nation to be like them ...
It would be great if all Jews identified their yiddishkeit by their connection with HaShem through the Torah and mitzvos and not in any way at all through a non-Jewish concept of nationhood.
You think any of us non-gedolim have the right/ability to answer that? Should the heads of this secular state decide?? Obviously, the critical mass question is an important one that is constantly being weighed by Torah true leaders. No hareidi that I know is saying that their way is the New Judaism incumbent on everyone, like many in the national camp say about their way.
"the critical mass question is an important one that is constantly being weighed by Torah true leaders".
The claim that it's being 'weighed' by 'Torah-true leaders' is wishful thinking. In the Charedi world, there is no culture of actively 'weighing' or questioning; there's explicit pride in unwavering adherence to tradition and the momentum of established culture
You may be right. I hope you aren't. It's not my impression, at least by those hareidi leaders who take the Klal seriously. And they exist. But I agree that the "culture" is complicated.
Your perception of how real Chachomim lead the nation is warped. It is true that the Torah does not change, but it does instruct how to deal with changing situations.
For example, the broader Charedi community had been showing up to the draft office. Now, even under 18 year olds do not show up even though they will not be drafted yet. So there has been a change (although one that I know you don't like).
But why should the Hareidi Gedolim be allowed to make decisions that affect my life? I just read an article that cites an estimate that Haredi draft refusal is costing the economy 30 billion dollars, mainly due to direct and indirect costs of miluim soldiers. The non-Haredim are paying both the economic and personal costs of the war, while the Gedolim decide that the Haredim should be exempt
" Have you noticed, btw, they haredim don't proselytize? They're not saying they'd want the entire nation to be like them." But they are already a third of first-graders. So what's the upper limit?
I'm not sure who is the "us" that you mean. Anybody who has voluntarily chosen not to follow the Torah has excluded themselves from the privileges of being Jewish.
Every religion and country and club etc., works that way. You don't want to follow the rules, you lose privileges. Why should Judaism (whose rules have been defined by the written and oral Torah for thousands of years) be any different.
You are Jewish. I don't know you, but in if you are intentionally not keeping the Torah, then:
you have lost certain privileges of being Jewish, and you still have all the obligations (including teshuvah). But you are Jewish, and if you decide to come back, you do not need giyur or bris/hatafas-dam.
If they're so uninterested in the rest of the nation (which you seem to think is a good think, but which of course is not), then they should completely remove themselves from running government ministries and especially, ironically, the official Rabbinate.
touche`. But it's usually not about persuading others that THIS is the only way to be Jewish, but this is a special path in Judaism, would you like to taste it? At least those hareidi kiruvniks I'm in touch with. But sadly I agree there are certain messianics.
Let's first get them to be shomer Torah. You can't tell a new almost-baal-teshuvah that he'll never be able to sleep in again for the rest of his life because he'll need to wake up for shacharis.
Last week I heard a talk from R' Shalom Sharon, a well-known Ethiopian rav and scholar. He pointed out that while Ethiopian Jews always had Books of Maccabees (not the same as the ones we have), those books only mention the fighting the Maccabim did, not the miracle of the oil. He decried those who would only think of the latter and ignore the former, and how that shapes charedi thought. "You wouldn't hear the words 'נמוס ולא נתגייס' from an Ethiopian!" he said.
What do you mean the books of Maccabees - "not the same as we have" . There are 2 books of Maccabbes, 1 & 2 and they were not canonised in our torah for what ever reason. The books do not say anything aout oil, but give an entire different reason why they celebrated 8 days. The oil only was first mentioned in the gemorah 500 years later.
Where is there "another version" of The books of the Maccabees?
The Ethiopian Bible, Christian and Jewish, has three books called "Meqabyan" which tell the story of Chanukah but in a different way from our Books of Maccabees. (Of which there are actually eight or nine, but that's another story.) But the essential idea is the same.
Add that both Maccabim 1 and 2 survived only in Greek, I believe. Hebrew versions we may read today are translations from the Greek. I am curious what book R Sharon is referring to.
(Josephus doesn’t mention any miracle of oil, either, by the way.)
See above. But that is my point: Without the Bavli (which is really quoting the commentary on Megillat Taanit), one would not know about the oil miracle. So they didn't.
I imagine most if not all Ethiopian Jews light a chanukkiah today, of course.
In every prayer and every grace-after-meals all Jews (who pray and bentch) mention Hashem's deliverance of the wicked, mighty, impure, strong, and multitudinous enemy into the hands of the righteous, weak, pure, and few Jews. There are no religious Jews who "only think of the" oil and "ignore the" victory.
2) In any case, the book of Macabees does not seem to be halachically authoritative in any way.
He's not an ignoramus; he is well aware of Al HaNisim, and even cited it. But he was referring to the simple fact that for many Jews, particularly of the black hat variety, "Chanukah" means "miracle of oil" and the military battles, if they are considered seriously at all, are a distant second. Whereas the reality is quite the opposite, and even more so if, like Ethiopian Jews, you never heard of the miracle of the oil.
He never said the books have halakhic authority. (Although they *are* considered part of the the Ethiopian Tanach.) But they obviously have historical authority.
Fun fact: Going only by Chazal, you'd never have heard the word "Maccabee" or even the name "Yehuda."
That fact was fun. I'm not sure how much my life would be different though.
Anyway, the issue of the military battles is not about how "strong" and "militarily courageous" we were, it is about our diliverance by the hand of HaShem. If you read al hanissim, it's quite clear. It even says we were weak and few and pure. It was not an issue of our military prowess (read: kochi v'otzem yadi).
Surely you meant אין הכי נמי? What follows in your comment is mostly an explanation of Nachum's point without the inconvenience of conceding the point- that indeed some Jews downplay the military victory.
"kochi v'otzem yadi"
Half those who cite this don't understand it.
Half of them use it to slander Torah Jews who have raised their hands in battle.
Half of them are untouched by the issue since they've rarely lifted their hands in any worldly endeavors.
אין הכי נמי going only by Chazal, I'd never have heard the word "Maccabee" or even the name "Yehuda." I'm not sure how much my life would be different though.
Anyway, (you can finish reading this paragraph as typed in my comment above.)
"Half those who cite this don't understand it."
Maybe, but I'm not one of them.
"Half of them use it to slander Torah Jews who have raised their hands in battle."
I don't.
"Half of them are untouched by the issue since they've rarely lifted their hands in any worldly endeavors."
This is also not me.
So your three attempts above to malign my comment are meaningless.
You wrote " There are no religious Jews who "only think of the" oil and "ignore the" victory." And you tried to prove that based on the words they say. But it's well established that people utter words by rote without even basic intention. Consequently your proof remains insufficient.
My knowledge or ignorance of people's priorities of thought is no evidence of the coherence of your argument.
If you are only coming to call into question my "proofs", I agree that they are not proofs. I brought al hanissim as an indication. If you don't accept it as proof, I understand - and that is fine.
Interesting that you do not question the other guy. Where are all these people who think Chanuka is only about the oil? I don't know anybody like that. And he brought no indication at all let alone proof.
Our "Al Hanissim" does not mention a miricle of oil, but of vitory in out fight, of the few against the many. Just like I see the Ethopian version. What is pure alander about that???
The purpose of life is to make a connection with HaShem through Torah and Mitzvos. Focusing on HaShem's endless and miraculous chessed (i.e., the fact that He saved us and on His miraculous salvation) promotes that connection. Focusing on the physical victory in any other way (e.g., patriotism, military pride, etc.) sidelines the deliverance (at least to a close second) and detracts from that connection.
Nachum wrote, "the military battles, if they are considered seriously at all, are a distant second. "
And you went to argue that point. Now you're conceding the point again, agreeing that "the military battles, if they are considered seriously at all, are a distant second. "
You wrote: "No, not victory. "
And then you wrote: "The victory is there."
So you're just being inconsistent for the sake of being contentious.
It is with pleasure, I notice the comment section has turned from the short vile coments - you are a sicko an apikoris, burn in hell, to a pleasent open for and against debate. It isoe pleasent to read.....How did you manage that??
You will never have any syucsess with the majority of the fanatical thinkers, however I clearly see the impact you are having with the frum so called middle of the road people. Especially with articles like the one above. Chazak Veamuts. Hashem will pay you back in kind for all that you are doing.
He has still not relented on his denial of Divine Providence and many other things that are integral to Jewish belief. So while the comments section may be polite, it does not change the fact that he is an apikores - of course meant in the besst way possible.
He told us. It's in the Torah. in the times of the Sanhedrin, batey din do things to people with certain "titles". furthermore, regular people also need to know so that they can protect themselves and their families from apikorsus that floats around.
(1) What I meant by "... protect themselves and their families from apikorsus that floats around" is "...from apikorsus that floats around masquerading as Jewish".
(2) You don't believe that G-d gave the written and oral Torah? And that it's true? And that we actually are supposed to run our lives according to it?
So you get to decide who is a 'special kind of stupid', or 'blind to the obvious', things for which we have no Torah. But when it comes to decisions explained by the Torah, we leave it to God.
It’s meaningless. He’s an am Haaretz in this area and never studied what the Rishonim say about hashgacah peratis and tzaddik vera Lo. He could even shortcut and read the sifsei chaim to have it laid out for him.
Thank you for the compliment. My understanding is that when you resort to calling me names without addressing my point it's because you have no answer. (Also, you didn't bother toask where all those rishonim say what I say they say, so you actually may be wrong.)
"when you resort to calling me names" ummmm.... "it does not change the fact that he is an apikores". I guess that kind of a self-own and indicates you have no answer?
Also 1) my comment was quite specific 2) "Am-Haaretz" isn't a "bad name". When it comes to the totality of Torah knowledge I'm one myself. But in your case you are calling people heretics out of ignorance (or, perhaps, bile).
No. That was not a self-own. It was not just a name-call because I have explained numerous times (I think even in the comments to this very post) what makes him an apikorus.
"my comment was quite specific"
No, it just said that I don't know what I'm talking about regarding "hashgacah peratis and tzaddik vera lo". Please share what you think I am not understanding.
"Am-Haaretz" isn't a "bad name". That depends on the context.
"When it comes to the totality of Torah knowledge I'm one myself."
Not such an admission. Anybody who truly understands that the depth of Torah is unending can/should say that.
"But in your case you are calling people heretics out of ignorance (or, perhaps, bile)."
Perhaps you are willfully or otherwise ignorant (i.e., unaware) of his denial of basic hashgachah pratis and schar v'onesh (as described by chazal, rishonim, achronim) and numerous other things.
"But what is your answer if you have one?"
I did not see in your comment what needs answering, which is why I wrote what I did. But if you'd like to spell out your point, I would be happy to attempt an answer.
The possuk states אם ה׳ לא יבנה בית, שוא עמלו בוניו בו, which implies that if God assists the builders then the builders’ efforts are not in vain; those efforts build the house. The possuk does not state, שוא עמילת הבונים, ה׳ הוא הבונה בית.
A kollel yungerman once bought a lottery ticket, and then threw it out without checking the numbers. The Rosh Kollel asked him why he did that and he said, "why should I check the numbers, it's bittul torah." So the R"K asked him, "then why did you buy the ticket", to which he responded, "I was doing my hishtadlus".
The story illustrates very well a new trend that has developed in some circles over the past several decades, which treats hishtadlus as a sort of magic gumball machine button that you have to press in order to get God to release the gumball or other prize. It's not that your hishtaduls actually accomplishes the result, it's just that God, for the purpose of building our emunah, created a world where you are given a nisayon of seemingly needing to do A in order to make B happen, but in reality, once you realize that it's not A that causes B to happen, only God does, then you will not actually have to do A, and any small hishtadlus will be sufficient to activate B.
"A kollel yungerman once bought a lottery ticket, and then threw it out without checking the numbers. The Rosh Kollel asked him why he did that and he said, "why should I check the numbers, it's bittul torah." So the R"K asked him, "then why did you buy the ticket", to which he responded, "I was doing my hishtadlus"."
The story continues:
"Ah, but it would have been less bittul torah if you checked the numbers but didn't buy the ticket"
"But then how could I have won?"
"That's Hashem's problem not yours. You think buying a ticket is the cause of wealth? כֹּחִי וְעֹצֶם יָדִי !! You're a worse heretic as those working fryers! At least they're following חז"ל who require one to learn a trade and support his family!"
Another excellent piece, as always, with fascinating and well-chosen sources. And the AI-generated image of the chasid and the horse is fantastic, love it!
Also a nice picture but a little strange. The horse closest to the chasid seems to have only one ear. And then there's his twin next to him... you didn't ask for two horses, did you?
Rav Slifkin writes "And the charedi community does not declare that they need less doctors or medical facilities." That's true. But it only applies to medical treatment after the fact. When it comes to preventative health, the charedim do act differently. Many generations after smoking was shown to be harmful, it is still widespread in the charedi community and especially in charedi yeshivas and the "gedolim" have yet to ban it despite being quick to ban many commonly used items of modern life "Oh, that's a cigarette you're holding. That's ok. I was worried it might be a smartphone." And products sold in charedi supermarkets continue to contain far higher quantities of sugar, sweeteners, preservatives and other additives, long after those sold in other supermarkets have become far healthier than they were in the past on the recommendation of doctors and nutritionists.
"Many generations after smoking was shown to be harmful, it is still widespread in the charedi community and especially in charedi yeshivas and the "gedolim" have yet to ban it despite being quick to ban many commonly used items of modern life"
Not the most fair point. Israel is weird when it comes to smoking- double the rate of the USA. Weirder still, is that with a younger population, you'd expect Israel's smoking rate to be lower than the USA. (And given that Israel has no native tobacco industry/lobby, no deep libertarian tradition and gov't paid medicine which pays for the damage due to smoking- it should be even less.) The rising Charedi smoking rates are downright scandalous because leading poskim (and the Jewish Oberver!) banned smoking more than a generation ago. And don't get me started about the holy custom of rebbes smoking on Purim. Very weird.
Miracles don't come from forcing Hashem's hand. He sent Israel out to fight even with the priests accompanying the fighters. How can we justify neglecting our duty to stand up for this land, studying all day beyond what is necessary?
In general I don’t think this picture could ever exist in the modern world. Haredim are generally frightened of all animals….dogs, livestock, horses….ever saw a Haredi riding a horse or at a dude ranch….?
I like this translation, from the Contemporary JPS. Others translate similarly. The idea being that a שֵׁ֙בֶט֙, scepter, is a physical stick that represents rule. Similarly, וּמְחֹקֵ֖ק should refer to a physical utensil used for rule. If you want, it could be a ruler’s staff which may not be as fancy as a scepter; or it could be a writing / carving implement used to write down legislation. There is a physical mashal and nimshal, where these signify Yehuda’s continued authority. And, parallelism in Biblical poetry is at play, where the word in the first phrase should echo the word in the second phrase. A physical staff makes sense as being placed between his feet.” Et. al.
“Faith is not a sentiment that can remain in the realm of theory, it calls for action. Similarly, victory does not occur due to the actions of man, alone.
In the Torah, before battle, the priest is supposed to tell the Nation (Deuteronomy – Chapter 20):
“Hear, O Israel, today you are approaching the battle against your enemies. Let your hearts not be faint; you shall not be afraid, and you shall not be alarmed, and you shall not be terrified because of them.
For the Lord, your God, is the One Who goes with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.”—from another source—an article about Chanukah
What difference if David Hamelech is ruling or not? The fact is that our lives are in danger. The fact is that we need an army to protect ourselves. The fact is that there are not enough soldiers.
I get it. You see a burning national need, and the hareidim as naturally part of our national resources - so let's simply tap it! But these stubborn Jews don't share your naturalistic hashkafa. They believe their tending to the neshama of the nation, while others are tending to the guf. Or something along that line. Its like saying if we were suddenly bereft of enough surgeons, let's go and draft the philosophers, constructions workers, and plumbers among us into medical school. Not the best analogy, but you should catch the pt.
what you call a "naturalistic hashkafa" is shown in this post to be classical Judaism, as opposed to charedi hashkafa which is a modern invention with no basis in Chazal.
Yes, you clearly believe that naturalistic hashkafa is the only true Jewish one. I'm not the one to give a detailed counter argument to that, but there are plenty.
Of course the Rabbonim would be willing soldiers if there was a Halachic army led by someone like Dovid HaMelech. Because of course they believe in hishtadlus and that we can't rely on nissim alone to protect us from our genocidal enemies.
But now that there isn't a halachic army, and Dovid HaMelech isn't leading, why would the answer be any different? Do we need less hishtadlus now? Are we more worthy of miracles because we don't have a Dovid HaMelech leading the way?
excellent question. It seems that 2000 yrs of surviving Galus b'ikar due to immersion in T"T has brought these great Torah sages to the belief that those who can keep it up, should. Obviously, those who view the State of Israel as fundamentally ending the Galus, have a different take.
Again a silly mistaken argument- We survived the Galus due to the fact we kept the commandments. Most of our history there was hardley any torah learning, exept a lecture on shabbos and a small group at night. Most of the yidden never got a good education and were forced to work for their bit of bread. In any given generation if there was 100 peeople learning all day it was a lot.
Stop with your narishkiet that 50,000 pepole learned all day, and that is what kept us. I hate to bust your bubble, it was the "simple person" who kept the mitzvahs and gave it over to the next generation - that is why we are here .
Fantasies are allway good but remember they are ony that - fantasies .
We survived as a nation for 2000 yrs of Galus. But many of us were killed. From the inquisiton, to tach vatat, to the Holocaust and all the pogroms and violence in between. Because until Hakamas HaMeina, we did not have a natural way to defend ourselves. Torah was all we had... and we suffered for it.
Not many people say the State of Israel is what we aspire it to be, but saying that there isn't a change in status or that we are living as we were 500 years ago is being disingenuous to say the least.
So you'd trade the opportunity to defend and rule ourselves (with any level of Yahadus) for another 2000 years of galus? Good luck in front of the heavenly tribunal.
Your argument suffers from what's known as a "distinction without a difference," or in lomdus, a חילוק without a מחלק. Additionally, it involves an element of special pleading, as it relies on an unsubstantiated exception to the general rule.
You’re suggesting that Rabbonim’s willingness to serve as soldiers depends on the leader being someone of David’s stature. The burden of proof lies with you to demonstrate why that condition is necessary
Because a secularly guided IDF poses great spiritual dangers to those immersed in a culture of Talmud Torah K'neged Kulam. Do I need to go into detail??
I would also like to add, that I was never moved by the spiritual dangers problem.
First of all, it does seem a little selfish (the best kind of selfish there is- selfish for ruchniyus instead of gashmiyus matters- but still selfish) that your ruchniyus is so important that you are willing to force others to sacrifice family, parnassah, mental health, physical health, and their own spiritual needs in order that you don't have to face spiritual challenges? Did they agree to make that sacrifice so that you don't have to?
But second of all, it seems like from the Torah itself that fighting in a war to save Klal Yisroel is so important, that we are even willing to accept the spiritual losses that come with it. The Parsha of Eishes Yefas Toar shows us that a soldier is at risk of raping and desiring to marry his non Jewish captives. How much greater can the spiritual risk of war be? And yet, not only does the Torah not use this as an exemption from soldiers to fight, it even acknowledges that this Yetzer Hara is almost impossible to overcome and creates leniencies for the soldier that wouldn't be allowed for an ordinary civilian!
So why aren't Charedim demonstrating on the streets asking to change the military leaders for God-fearing ones? Why aren't the Charedi parties and gedolim saying this day and night?
That's a nice סברא, but as they say in yeshiva, מהיכא תיתי - who says? Anyone can come up with some way to distinguish X from Y, but that alone doesn't make it an argument. You need sources, not just a made-up סברא
"Do you really think that these Rabbonim wouldn't be willing soldiers if DOVID HAMELEKH was ruling?"
I doubt they would, even the way that Dovid is depicted in Chazal. For one thing, the Batsheva scandal would definitely invalidate him permanently in the eyes of the current charedi leadership. Not to mention the Avigayil scandal, the Avishag scandal, etc.
You are not allowed to say these things in public!
All chazal were perfect and anything written not so, we have to push under the table. Like someone once warned me on this site after a similar comment "Do not go near Water" but I still kayak the Deleaware and class III rivers on a regular basis, and so far so good B'H
The explanation cited in the post seems sufficient. They rely only horses and chariots while we *also* mention God. Also, as R Slifkin points out, it’s not just rationalists.
It's sad that you think we rely on horses and chariots and "also" (as a secondary thing) mention G-d.
The fact is that Jews should never rely on the horses and to do so is kfirah. When we must do hishtadlus we never "rely" on it; the hishtadlus does not bring results. This is ABCs of emunah from Gmara, to Rambam to Chovos Halevavos, etc. etc. etc. etc.
The hishtadlus that we do is the tool that enables God to give us success. In general, ein somchin al hanes. Of course Hashem could make us victorious without horses, but in general, He won't because that would be miraculous. So in that sense, we do rely on hishtadlus. It's not that our hishtadlus is causing the victory or the success, but without it, it likely wouldn't come.
Hishtadlus without God won't bring results, but neither will relying on God without doing hishtadlus. It's not just a requirement, it's (usually) a necessary component of success.
You have not learned up the sugya to its end, and have taken some catch-phrases and added some of your own misunderstanding.
The purpose of hishtadlus is not to "enable HaShem". There are a few reasons for hishtadlus, and nobody here seems to know what they are. Everybody here (and in many places).
Please cite sources for at least two purposes for hishtadlus. ("Eyn somchim al haness" does not count because it does not explain what the hishtadlus is for, just that (in most cases) we can't do without it. But without knowing what hishtadlus is for, a person can not understand when use/refrain-from hishtadlus or how much hishtadlus to do or how to do it.)
So please quote at sources for at least two purposes of hishtadlus. (Hint: It does not actually accomplish anything.)
Good posik, I dont know, However I judge in "actual practical terms" and if millions are lying dead in WWII due to that posik, I look for something else. There a thousands of pasokim that contridict each other so I go with the rational ones and stay alive. If you want to play dice with the other, I feel sorry for you when you will be laying in the heap of ashes, but how can we help you?
Were many or some not monetarily assisted to escape WWII because of non-belief of news and/or Tzdakkah? Or was the Kabbalah—noted “6M” in Torah prophecy unchanged—
It's interesting that the people arguing with my post are claiming that the army is nevertheless too spiritually dangerous. They aren't claiming that Rabbeinu Bechaya and Sefer HaChinnuch are wrong.
Alright, Natan. We get it that you're excited about these sources, which hareidim usually venerate. Obviously, the position about needing to do hishtadlus for self defense, in general, is not foreign to traditional Jewish thought. But as the Chinnuch puts it: "Even in Israel’s fighting of a war commanded by the word of God ..." - the emphasis on divine command must be understood. Just like Rab' Y. Ben Zakai chose to prioritize learning over absolute hishtadlus for self-defense, there have always been disputes re. what to prioritize when "a war commanded by the word of God" is not so clear.
Don't you know how to learn? The point he is making is that EVEN THOUGH God told them to fight, they STILL could not rely on God's help. Kal v'chomer if you don't have an explicit instruction by God!
The arrogance of your Litvishe learning background is having a ball, eh. What toeles do you find in such a put-down?
I also understood the Chinnuch's pt about not being סומך על הנס even when H' explicitly tells you to fight. It's a virtually context free klal. But I don't see your קל וחומר to the extent you do. Yes, we should certainly not rely on miracles when we have no idea if H' is explicitly guiding us, but that doesnt mean we should make obviously DANGEROUS decisions in those situations. Where we invest our hishtadlus now has many more options, including into those mitzvos which are more likely to arouse His favor.
But his whole point is that hishtadlus means hishtadlus in physical things, NOT mitzvos.
You really wanna do a havrusa, eh. Alright - here goes:
1. He starts with noting that "most ppl" don't merit nessim to protect them, DUE TO THEIR SINS. I.e. if it wasn't for our lack of proper avoida, normative hishtadlus would NOT be the right course of action, and conversely, if there is someone, or a group, who believe they're on that level, relying on nissim is quite reasonable.
2. Plenty of sfarim kedoshim suggest the above is what drove the Hashmonaiim to enter a war which ONLY a nes could assure their success.
3. Others emphasize horaas shaa, that since there was not any viable alternative to winning this war, in terms of keeping Judaism alive and well, it HAD to be that H' would provide a nes for those who courageously fought for those aims.
4. As for your claim that hishtadlus never means mitzvos but natural physical action and logical strategies... I don't know what your proof is. Using natural means is a MITZVAH for those who can't presume their merits will qualify for a miracle. And when those natural means don't seem so reliable, the mitzvah of PRAYER is considered hishtadlus. As in krias YS.
5. Its my impression that those rabbonim who say serious full time learning for those who can is of parallel value to that of our soldiers in the IDF, they understand it in terms of the HISHTADLUS in learning.
חנוכה שמח
i.e. no serious hareidi rav (at least not the ones I respect) says to completely ignore the dangers that our national enemies are presenting, and just go about your business - learning, working, shmoozing - as if we had already reached Yaacov Avinu's shalva! Rather, they're saying that those who can should BE A SOLDIER IN LEARNING.
Dispute the wisdom in that. But don't deny their Torah based right to make that choice.
It's noteworthy they don't believe in miracles for their own material and institutional survival. No manna, no bottomless pitchers of oil.
You're right. That's the big contradiction that we'd all like to see resolved. But upon sincere reflection, it becomes clear that their resistance to sharing the burden of national self defense is not really about emmuna & hishtadlus, but concern for the spiritual affect of army service. It m-a-y work for the dati and Hardal crowds, but would be devastating to the hareidi devotional scheme of life, which they believe, of course, is a crucial need for the NATION. Have you noticed, btw, they haredim don't proselytize? They're not saying they'd want the entire nation to be like them ...
How many charedim does the nation need?
All of them.
Implying that we don't need more?
I didn't say that.
It would be great if all Jews identified their yiddishkeit by their connection with HaShem through the Torah and mitzvos and not in any way at all through a non-Jewish concept of nationhood.
You think any of us non-gedolim have the right/ability to answer that? Should the heads of this secular state decide?? Obviously, the critical mass question is an important one that is constantly being weighed by Torah true leaders. No hareidi that I know is saying that their way is the New Judaism incumbent on everyone, like many in the national camp say about their way.
"the critical mass question is an important one that is constantly being weighed by Torah true leaders".
The claim that it's being 'weighed' by 'Torah-true leaders' is wishful thinking. In the Charedi world, there is no culture of actively 'weighing' or questioning; there's explicit pride in unwavering adherence to tradition and the momentum of established culture
You may be right. I hope you aren't. It's not my impression, at least by those hareidi leaders who take the Klal seriously. And they exist. But I agree that the "culture" is complicated.
Your perception of how real Chachomim lead the nation is warped. It is true that the Torah does not change, but it does instruct how to deal with changing situations.
For example, the broader Charedi community had been showing up to the draft office. Now, even under 18 year olds do not show up even though they will not be drafted yet. So there has been a change (although one that I know you don't like).
We all know the charedi world is run not by the talmidei chachamim but by amhaaretz askanim, politicians, and family members.
But why should the Hareidi Gedolim be allowed to make decisions that affect my life? I just read an article that cites an estimate that Haredi draft refusal is costing the economy 30 billion dollars, mainly due to direct and indirect costs of miluim soldiers. The non-Haredim are paying both the economic and personal costs of the war, while the Gedolim decide that the Haredim should be exempt
https://www.mako.co.il/news-money/2024_q4/Article-679b59f9d3fe391026.htm?sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=173113802
And why should secular and anti-Torah politicians (and military commanders) be allowed to make decisions that affect the lives of religious people?
Because if not for those "secular and anti-Torah [sic] politicians," the charedim would be starving to death and/or being murdered by Arabs.
" Have you noticed, btw, they haredim don't proselytize? They're not saying they'd want the entire nation to be like them." But they are already a third of first-graders. So what's the upper limit?
good question
"Proselytize" is a very well-chosen word in this case, since the Haredim don't consider the rest of us to be Jews at all.
I'm not sure who is the "us" that you mean. Anybody who has voluntarily chosen not to follow the Torah has excluded themselves from the privileges of being Jewish.
Every religion and country and club etc., works that way. You don't want to follow the rules, you lose privileges. Why should Judaism (whose rules have been defined by the written and oral Torah for thousands of years) be any different.
What privileges do you refer to?
In many ways such a person is halachically treated as not-Jewish. And we hope that s/he speedily returns.
So aside from you raiding his liquor cabinet, what other privileges?
So you agree with him. In your eyes, I'm not Jewish.
You are Jewish. I don't know you, but in if you are intentionally not keeping the Torah, then:
you have lost certain privileges of being Jewish, and you still have all the obligations (including teshuvah). But you are Jewish, and if you decide to come back, you do not need giyur or bris/hatafas-dam.
I keep the Torah, intentionally. But it's clear you wouldn't think I do.
Should do hatafas dam lechumra
stop it. Sinas chinam! It was used colloquially.
If they're so uninterested in the rest of the nation (which you seem to think is a good think, but which of course is not), then they should completely remove themselves from running government ministries and especially, ironically, the official Rabbinate.
There are Charedim kiruv organizations. So your "haredim don't proselytize" comment is not true.
touche`. But it's usually not about persuading others that THIS is the only way to be Jewish, but this is a special path in Judaism, would you like to taste it? At least those hareidi kiruvniks I'm in touch with. But sadly I agree there are certain messianics.
Let's first get them to be shomer Torah. You can't tell a new almost-baal-teshuvah that he'll never be able to sleep in again for the rest of his life because he'll need to wake up for shacharis.
They don't proselytize because they don't believe in converts
Last week I heard a talk from R' Shalom Sharon, a well-known Ethiopian rav and scholar. He pointed out that while Ethiopian Jews always had Books of Maccabees (not the same as the ones we have), those books only mention the fighting the Maccabim did, not the miracle of the oil. He decried those who would only think of the latter and ignore the former, and how that shapes charedi thought. "You wouldn't hear the words 'נמוס ולא נתגייס' from an Ethiopian!" he said.
What do you mean the books of Maccabees - "not the same as we have" . There are 2 books of Maccabbes, 1 & 2 and they were not canonised in our torah for what ever reason. The books do not say anything aout oil, but give an entire different reason why they celebrated 8 days. The oil only was first mentioned in the gemorah 500 years later.
Where is there "another version" of The books of the Maccabees?
The Ethiopian Bible, Christian and Jewish, has three books called "Meqabyan" which tell the story of Chanukah but in a different way from our Books of Maccabees. (Of which there are actually eight or nine, but that's another story.) But the essential idea is the same.
Add that both Maccabim 1 and 2 survived only in Greek, I believe. Hebrew versions we may read today are translations from the Greek. I am curious what book R Sharon is referring to.
(Josephus doesn’t mention any miracle of oil, either, by the way.)
See above. But that is my point: Without the Bavli (which is really quoting the commentary on Megillat Taanit), one would not know about the oil miracle. So they didn't.
I imagine most if not all Ethiopian Jews light a chanukkiah today, of course.
1) This is just pure untrue slander.
In every prayer and every grace-after-meals all Jews (who pray and bentch) mention Hashem's deliverance of the wicked, mighty, impure, strong, and multitudinous enemy into the hands of the righteous, weak, pure, and few Jews. There are no religious Jews who "only think of the" oil and "ignore the" victory.
2) In any case, the book of Macabees does not seem to be halachically authoritative in any way.
He's not an ignoramus; he is well aware of Al HaNisim, and even cited it. But he was referring to the simple fact that for many Jews, particularly of the black hat variety, "Chanukah" means "miracle of oil" and the military battles, if they are considered seriously at all, are a distant second. Whereas the reality is quite the opposite, and even more so if, like Ethiopian Jews, you never heard of the miracle of the oil.
He never said the books have halakhic authority. (Although they *are* considered part of the the Ethiopian Tanach.) But they obviously have historical authority.
Fun fact: Going only by Chazal, you'd never have heard the word "Maccabee" or even the name "Yehuda."
That fact was fun. I'm not sure how much my life would be different though.
Anyway, the issue of the military battles is not about how "strong" and "militarily courageous" we were, it is about our diliverance by the hand of HaShem. If you read al hanissim, it's quite clear. It even says we were weak and few and pure. It was not an issue of our military prowess (read: kochi v'otzem yadi).
"Anyway..."
Surely you meant אין הכי נמי? What follows in your comment is mostly an explanation of Nachum's point without the inconvenience of conceding the point- that indeed some Jews downplay the military victory.
"kochi v'otzem yadi"
Half those who cite this don't understand it.
Half of them use it to slander Torah Jews who have raised their hands in battle.
Half of them are untouched by the issue since they've rarely lifted their hands in any worldly endeavors.
OK. I'll try it your way.
אין הכי נמי going only by Chazal, I'd never have heard the word "Maccabee" or even the name "Yehuda." I'm not sure how much my life would be different though.
Anyway, (you can finish reading this paragraph as typed in my comment above.)
"Half those who cite this don't understand it."
Maybe, but I'm not one of them.
"Half of them use it to slander Torah Jews who have raised their hands in battle."
I don't.
"Half of them are untouched by the issue since they've rarely lifted their hands in any worldly endeavors."
This is also not me.
So your three attempts above to malign my comment are meaningless.
"Half those who cite this don't understand it."
Maybe, but I'm not one of them.
But you did say, " It was not an issue of our military prowess" and contrasted that with כחי ועצם ידי .
Yet the following פסוק reads:
וזכרת את ה אלקיך כי הוא הנתן לך כח לעשות חיל
Loose translation: You shall remember Hashem your G-d who has given you military prowess.
So no, you don't understand what כחי ועצם יד means.
"In every prayer and every grace-after-meals all Jews... There are no religious Jews who "only think"
The priorities of thought do not necessarily follow from the uttering of text, no matter how frequent.
And you purport to know their priorities of thought?
You wrote " There are no religious Jews who "only think of the" oil and "ignore the" victory." And you tried to prove that based on the words they say. But it's well established that people utter words by rote without even basic intention. Consequently your proof remains insufficient.
My knowledge or ignorance of people's priorities of thought is no evidence of the coherence of your argument.
If you are only coming to call into question my "proofs", I agree that they are not proofs. I brought al hanissim as an indication. If you don't accept it as proof, I understand - and that is fine.
Interesting that you do not question the other guy. Where are all these people who think Chanuka is only about the oil? I don't know anybody like that. And he brought no indication at all let alone proof.
"Interesting that you do not question the other guy."
Your interest in tangential matters such as my alleged selective inquisitiveness adds no weight to your argument.
" Where are all these people who think Chanuka is only about the oil? "
It's my experience too in the Charedi world. The oil miracle was indeed at the forefront and the war a distant second.
Our "Al Hanissim" does not mention a miricle of oil, but of vitory in out fight, of the few against the many. Just like I see the Ethopian version. What is pure alander about that???
The less important the point, the more attached they are to it. It's dangerous but it's an old phenomenon.
No, not victory. Deliverance. Read it again.
So you're saying it wasn't a victory? Or are you saying deliverance can occur without victory, or more precisely that deliverance can occur in defeat?
Call it ba'alebatish, but I think deliverance implies victory.
The victory is there. But it is not the point.
The purpose of life is to make a connection with HaShem through Torah and Mitzvos. Focusing on HaShem's endless and miraculous chessed (i.e., the fact that He saved us and on His miraculous salvation) promotes that connection. Focusing on the physical victory in any other way (e.g., patriotism, military pride, etc.) sidelines the deliverance (at least to a close second) and detracts from that connection.
You're getting sloppy and slippery.
Nachum wrote, "the military battles, if they are considered seriously at all, are a distant second. "
And you went to argue that point. Now you're conceding the point again, agreeing that "the military battles, if they are considered seriously at all, are a distant second. "
You wrote: "No, not victory. "
And then you wrote: "The victory is there."
So you're just being inconsistent for the sake of being contentious.
To Rabbi Slifkin,
It is with pleasure, I notice the comment section has turned from the short vile coments - you are a sicko an apikoris, burn in hell, to a pleasent open for and against debate. It isoe pleasent to read.....How did you manage that??
You will never have any syucsess with the majority of the fanatical thinkers, however I clearly see the impact you are having with the frum so called middle of the road people. Especially with articles like the one above. Chazak Veamuts. Hashem will pay you back in kind for all that you are doing.
Thank You.
I fail to find any debate. Sycophants have multiplied, those that know better have found other places.
He has still not relented on his denial of Divine Providence and many other things that are integral to Jewish belief. So while the comments section may be polite, it does not change the fact that he is an apikores - of course meant in the besst way possible.
Why don’t you let God decide who is an apikoros and who isn’t. It’s kind of above your pay grade
He told us. It's in the Torah. in the times of the Sanhedrin, batey din do things to people with certain "titles". furthermore, regular people also need to know so that they can protect themselves and their families from apikorsus that floats around.
Please go wall yourself up in a ghetto of your own making. Do us a favor.
(1) What I meant by "... protect themselves and their families from apikorsus that floats around" is "...from apikorsus that floats around masquerading as Jewish".
(2) You don't believe that G-d gave the written and oral Torah? And that it's true? And that we actually are supposed to run our lives according to it?
He also said we should have an army and made allowances for less than admirable behavior during wartime. Yet you’re too holy to serve.
So you get to decide who is a 'special kind of stupid', or 'blind to the obvious', things for which we have no Torah. But when it comes to decisions explained by the Torah, we leave it to God.
It’s meaningless. He’s an am Haaretz in this area and never studied what the Rishonim say about hashgacah peratis and tzaddik vera Lo. He could even shortcut and read the sifsei chaim to have it laid out for him.
Thank you for the compliment. My understanding is that when you resort to calling me names without addressing my point it's because you have no answer. (Also, you didn't bother toask where all those rishonim say what I say they say, so you actually may be wrong.)
"when you resort to calling me names" ummmm.... "it does not change the fact that he is an apikores". I guess that kind of a self-own and indicates you have no answer?
Also 1) my comment was quite specific 2) "Am-Haaretz" isn't a "bad name". When it comes to the totality of Torah knowledge I'm one myself. But in your case you are calling people heretics out of ignorance (or, perhaps, bile).
But what is your answer if you have one?
No. That was not a self-own. It was not just a name-call because I have explained numerous times (I think even in the comments to this very post) what makes him an apikorus.
"my comment was quite specific"
No, it just said that I don't know what I'm talking about regarding "hashgacah peratis and tzaddik vera lo". Please share what you think I am not understanding.
"Am-Haaretz" isn't a "bad name". That depends on the context.
"When it comes to the totality of Torah knowledge I'm one myself."
Not such an admission. Anybody who truly understands that the depth of Torah is unending can/should say that.
"But in your case you are calling people heretics out of ignorance (or, perhaps, bile)."
Perhaps you are willfully or otherwise ignorant (i.e., unaware) of his denial of basic hashgachah pratis and schar v'onesh (as described by chazal, rishonim, achronim) and numerous other things.
"But what is your answer if you have one?"
I did not see in your comment what needs answering, which is why I wrote what I did. But if you'd like to spell out your point, I would be happy to attempt an answer.
The possuk states אם ה׳ לא יבנה בית, שוא עמלו בוניו בו, which implies that if God assists the builders then the builders’ efforts are not in vain; those efforts build the house. The possuk does not state, שוא עמילת הבונים, ה׳ הוא הבונה בית.
A kollel yungerman once bought a lottery ticket, and then threw it out without checking the numbers. The Rosh Kollel asked him why he did that and he said, "why should I check the numbers, it's bittul torah." So the R"K asked him, "then why did you buy the ticket", to which he responded, "I was doing my hishtadlus".
The story illustrates very well a new trend that has developed in some circles over the past several decades, which treats hishtadlus as a sort of magic gumball machine button that you have to press in order to get God to release the gumball or other prize. It's not that your hishtaduls actually accomplishes the result, it's just that God, for the purpose of building our emunah, created a world where you are given a nisayon of seemingly needing to do A in order to make B happen, but in reality, once you realize that it's not A that causes B to happen, only God does, then you will not actually have to do A, and any small hishtadlus will be sufficient to activate B.
"A kollel yungerman once bought a lottery ticket, and then threw it out without checking the numbers. The Rosh Kollel asked him why he did that and he said, "why should I check the numbers, it's bittul torah." So the R"K asked him, "then why did you buy the ticket", to which he responded, "I was doing my hishtadlus"."
The story continues:
"Ah, but it would have been less bittul torah if you checked the numbers but didn't buy the ticket"
"But then how could I have won?"
"That's Hashem's problem not yours. You think buying a ticket is the cause of wealth? כֹּחִי וְעֹצֶם יָדִי !! You're a worse heretic as those working fryers! At least they're following חז"ל who require one to learn a trade and support his family!"
Another excellent piece, as always, with fascinating and well-chosen sources. And the AI-generated image of the chasid and the horse is fantastic, love it!
I see the chosid has an earing in his ear
About the AI image, did Rabbi Slifkin ask AI to draw a pinteleh Yid?
Haha good call, the proportion does seem to be a bit off. Here's what I got from grok 2, with prompt "image of chasid and horse":
https://imgur.com/a/fCppCak
Also a nice picture but a little strange. The horse closest to the chasid seems to have only one ear. And then there's his twin next to him... you didn't ask for two horses, did you?
Rav Slifkin writes "And the charedi community does not declare that they need less doctors or medical facilities." That's true. But it only applies to medical treatment after the fact. When it comes to preventative health, the charedim do act differently. Many generations after smoking was shown to be harmful, it is still widespread in the charedi community and especially in charedi yeshivas and the "gedolim" have yet to ban it despite being quick to ban many commonly used items of modern life "Oh, that's a cigarette you're holding. That's ok. I was worried it might be a smartphone." And products sold in charedi supermarkets continue to contain far higher quantities of sugar, sweeteners, preservatives and other additives, long after those sold in other supermarkets have become far healthier than they were in the past on the recommendation of doctors and nutritionists.
"Many generations after smoking was shown to be harmful, it is still widespread in the charedi community and especially in charedi yeshivas and the "gedolim" have yet to ban it despite being quick to ban many commonly used items of modern life"
Not the most fair point. Israel is weird when it comes to smoking- double the rate of the USA. Weirder still, is that with a younger population, you'd expect Israel's smoking rate to be lower than the USA. (And given that Israel has no native tobacco industry/lobby, no deep libertarian tradition and gov't paid medicine which pays for the damage due to smoking- it should be even less.) The rising Charedi smoking rates are downright scandalous because leading poskim (and the Jewish Oberver!) banned smoking more than a generation ago. And don't get me started about the holy custom of rebbes smoking on Purim. Very weird.
Miracles don't come from forcing Hashem's hand. He sent Israel out to fight even with the priests accompanying the fighters. How can we justify neglecting our duty to stand up for this land, studying all day beyond what is necessary?
In general I don’t think this picture could ever exist in the modern world. Haredim are generally frightened of all animals….dogs, livestock, horses….ever saw a Haredi riding a horse or at a dude ranch….?
Excellent post. Clear, concise, and well sourced.
From Scribal Error, D. Waxman expounds
“In yesterday’s daf, Sanhedrin 5, the gemara invoked this verse from Yaakov’s blessings in Vaychi:
לֹֽא־יָס֥וּר שֵׁ֙בֶט֙ מִֽיהוּדָ֔ה וּמְחֹקֵ֖ק מִבֵּ֣ין רַגְלָ֑יו עַ֚ד כִּֽי־יָבֹ֣א שִׁילֹ֔ה וְל֖וֹ יִקְּהַ֥ת עַמִּֽים׃
The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet;
So that tribute shall come to him
And the homage of peoples be his.
I like this translation, from the Contemporary JPS. Others translate similarly. The idea being that a שֵׁ֙בֶט֙, scepter, is a physical stick that represents rule. Similarly, וּמְחֹקֵ֖ק should refer to a physical utensil used for rule. If you want, it could be a ruler’s staff which may not be as fancy as a scepter; or it could be a writing / carving implement used to write down legislation. There is a physical mashal and nimshal, where these signify Yehuda’s continued authority. And, parallelism in Biblical poetry is at play, where the word in the first phrase should echo the word in the second phrase. A physical staff makes sense as being placed between his feet.” Et. al.
Above comments regarding authority—for discussion.
Could Chanukah be relevant?
“Faith is not a sentiment that can remain in the realm of theory, it calls for action. Similarly, victory does not occur due to the actions of man, alone.
In the Torah, before battle, the priest is supposed to tell the Nation (Deuteronomy – Chapter 20):
“Hear, O Israel, today you are approaching the battle against your enemies. Let your hearts not be faint; you shall not be afraid, and you shall not be alarmed, and you shall not be terrified because of them.
ג וְאָמַ֤ר אֲלֵהֶם֙ שְׁמַ֣ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אַתֶּ֨ם קְרֵבִ֥ים הַיּ֛וֹם לַמִּלְחָמָ֖ה עַל־אֹֽיְבֵיכֶ֑ם אַל־יֵרַ֣ךְ לְבַבְכֶ֗ם אַל־תִּֽירְא֧וּ וְאַל־תַּחְפְּז֛וּ וְאַל־תַּֽעַרְצ֖וּ מִפְּנֵיהֶֽם
For the Lord, your God, is the One Who goes with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.”—from another source—an article about Chanukah
The AI Rabbi appears to have a earring dangling from his ear and a curious chrome oddity on his belt.
Needs big battle shofars
Even the most fatalistic Muslims say "Trust G-d, but tether your 🐪"
"It’s amazing how people blind themselves to the obvious fact that everyone from the Avos to the Bnei Yisrael to King David ..."
Do you really think that these Rabbonim wouldn't be willing soldiers if DOVID HAMELEKH was ruling? Context, context, dear man.
What an interesting way to sidestep the point of the post.
what an interesting sidelining of my comment
What difference if David Hamelech is ruling or not? The fact is that our lives are in danger. The fact is that we need an army to protect ourselves. The fact is that there are not enough soldiers.
I get it. You see a burning national need, and the hareidim as naturally part of our national resources - so let's simply tap it! But these stubborn Jews don't share your naturalistic hashkafa. They believe their tending to the neshama of the nation, while others are tending to the guf. Or something along that line. Its like saying if we were suddenly bereft of enough surgeons, let's go and draft the philosophers, constructions workers, and plumbers among us into medical school. Not the best analogy, but you should catch the pt.
what you call a "naturalistic hashkafa" is shown in this post to be classical Judaism, as opposed to charedi hashkafa which is a modern invention with no basis in Chazal.
The Torah is very multifaceted. When you cherry-pick, you can pretend that the Torah says whatever you want.
Yes, you clearly believe that naturalistic hashkafa is the only true Jewish one. I'm not the one to give a detailed counter argument to that, but there are plenty.
You, of course, see no such burning need. Dead Jews mean nothing to you.
I think the tsibur here would be interested in your answer to my question
Of course the Rabbonim would be willing soldiers if there was a Halachic army led by someone like Dovid HaMelech. Because of course they believe in hishtadlus and that we can't rely on nissim alone to protect us from our genocidal enemies.
But now that there isn't a halachic army, and Dovid HaMelech isn't leading, why would the answer be any different? Do we need less hishtadlus now? Are we more worthy of miracles because we don't have a Dovid HaMelech leading the way?
excellent question. It seems that 2000 yrs of surviving Galus b'ikar due to immersion in T"T has brought these great Torah sages to the belief that those who can keep it up, should. Obviously, those who view the State of Israel as fundamentally ending the Galus, have a different take.
Huh? For 2000 years of golus there wasn't tens of thousands of people in yeshiva. We didn't even have rhat in 67.
Again a silly mistaken argument- We survived the Galus due to the fact we kept the commandments. Most of our history there was hardley any torah learning, exept a lecture on shabbos and a small group at night. Most of the yidden never got a good education and were forced to work for their bit of bread. In any given generation if there was 100 peeople learning all day it was a lot.
Stop with your narishkiet that 50,000 pepole learned all day, and that is what kept us. I hate to bust your bubble, it was the "simple person" who kept the mitzvahs and gave it over to the next generation - that is why we are here .
Fantasies are allway good but remember they are ony that - fantasies .
We survived as a nation for 2000 yrs of Galus. But many of us were killed. From the inquisiton, to tach vatat, to the Holocaust and all the pogroms and violence in between. Because until Hakamas HaMeina, we did not have a natural way to defend ourselves. Torah was all we had... and we suffered for it.
Not many people say the State of Israel is what we aspire it to be, but saying that there isn't a change in status or that we are living as we were 500 years ago is being disingenuous to say the least.
So you'd trade the opportunity to defend and rule ourselves (with any level of Yahadus) for another 2000 years of galus? Good luck in front of the heavenly tribunal.
Let me have a go at a response:
Your argument suffers from what's known as a "distinction without a difference," or in lomdus, a חילוק without a מחלק. Additionally, it involves an element of special pleading, as it relies on an unsubstantiated exception to the general rule.
You’re suggesting that Rabbonim’s willingness to serve as soldiers depends on the leader being someone of David’s stature. The burden of proof lies with you to demonstrate why that condition is necessary
It is assur to put evil sinners as leaders over ourselves. Period.
And yet the evil kings were successful in battle while Saul lost battles….
Because a secularly guided IDF poses great spiritual dangers to those immersed in a culture of Talmud Torah K'neged Kulam. Do I need to go into detail??
I would also like to add, that I was never moved by the spiritual dangers problem.
First of all, it does seem a little selfish (the best kind of selfish there is- selfish for ruchniyus instead of gashmiyus matters- but still selfish) that your ruchniyus is so important that you are willing to force others to sacrifice family, parnassah, mental health, physical health, and their own spiritual needs in order that you don't have to face spiritual challenges? Did they agree to make that sacrifice so that you don't have to?
But second of all, it seems like from the Torah itself that fighting in a war to save Klal Yisroel is so important, that we are even willing to accept the spiritual losses that come with it. The Parsha of Eishes Yefas Toar shows us that a soldier is at risk of raping and desiring to marry his non Jewish captives. How much greater can the spiritual risk of war be? And yet, not only does the Torah not use this as an exemption from soldiers to fight, it even acknowledges that this Yetzer Hara is almost impossible to overcome and creates leniencies for the soldier that wouldn't be allowed for an ordinary civilian!
So why aren't Charedim demonstrating on the streets asking to change the military leaders for God-fearing ones? Why aren't the Charedi parties and gedolim saying this day and night?
That's a nice סברא, but as they say in yeshiva, מהיכא תיתי - who says? Anyone can come up with some way to distinguish X from Y, but that alone doesn't make it an argument. You need sources, not just a made-up סברא
"Do you really think that these Rabbonim wouldn't be willing soldiers if DOVID HAMELEKH was ruling?"
I doubt they would, even the way that Dovid is depicted in Chazal. For one thing, the Batsheva scandal would definitely invalidate him permanently in the eyes of the current charedi leadership. Not to mention the Avigayil scandal, the Avishag scandal, etc.
You are not allowed to say these things in public!
All chazal were perfect and anything written not so, we have to push under the table. Like someone once warned me on this site after a similar comment "Do not go near Water" but I still kayak the Deleaware and class III rivers on a regular basis, and so far so good B'H
So for Yerovam they wouldn't? At the cost of losing 75% of Bnei Yisrael?
I would think that without Dovid Hamelech involved, you would MORE hishtadlus, not less.
Of course not. As an Eved Hashem, Dovid Hamelech would defer to the Gedolim on draft exemption.
No the gedolim back then would respect the army’s decision what they needed.
But Rav Natan, how then does a rationalist explain the verse of "those with their chariots and those with their horses, and we..."?
The explanation cited in the post seems sufficient. They rely only horses and chariots while we *also* mention God. Also, as R Slifkin points out, it’s not just rationalists.
It's sad that you think we rely on horses and chariots and "also" (as a secondary thing) mention G-d.
The fact is that Jews should never rely on the horses and to do so is kfirah. When we must do hishtadlus we never "rely" on it; the hishtadlus does not bring results. This is ABCs of emunah from Gmara, to Rambam to Chovos Halevavos, etc. etc. etc. etc.
It's not secondary, it's BOTH at the same time, exactly what David HaMelech did.
No. We never ever rely on the hishtadlus that we do, even if/when we are required to do it. Find one source that says so.
The hishtadlus that we do is the tool that enables God to give us success. In general, ein somchin al hanes. Of course Hashem could make us victorious without horses, but in general, He won't because that would be miraculous. So in that sense, we do rely on hishtadlus. It's not that our hishtadlus is causing the victory or the success, but without it, it likely wouldn't come.
Hishtadlus without God won't bring results, but neither will relying on God without doing hishtadlus. It's not just a requirement, it's (usually) a necessary component of success.
There are a number of things wrong with this.
You have not learned up the sugya to its end, and have taken some catch-phrases and added some of your own misunderstanding.
The purpose of hishtadlus is not to "enable HaShem". There are a few reasons for hishtadlus, and nobody here seems to know what they are. Everybody here (and in many places).
Please cite sources for at least two purposes for hishtadlus. ("Eyn somchim al haness" does not count because it does not explain what the hishtadlus is for, just that (in most cases) we can't do without it. But without knowing what hishtadlus is for, a person can not understand when use/refrain-from hishtadlus or how much hishtadlus to do or how to do it.)
So please quote at sources for at least two purposes of hishtadlus. (Hint: It does not actually accomplish anything.)
Good posik, I dont know, However I judge in "actual practical terms" and if millions are lying dead in WWII due to that posik, I look for something else. There a thousands of pasokim that contridict each other so I go with the rational ones and stay alive. If you want to play dice with the other, I feel sorry for you when you will be laying in the heap of ashes, but how can we help you?
Were many or some not monetarily assisted to escape WWII because of non-belief of news and/or Tzdakkah? Or was the Kabbalah—noted “6M” in Torah prophecy unchanged—