Ultimately, it comes down to anti-Zionist charedim are joining with our enemies to destroy the Jewish people, while non-Zionist charedim are destroying Israeli society from within. They are both awful.
>"I’ll take principled anti-Zionists any day over freeloaders who manipulate being part of Israel in order to take but are never willing to give."
While definitely true that Satmar is more principled and less hypocritical in this regard, I'd much sooner "take" non-principled Charedim. Since they're less fundamentalist, and overall more willing to integrate in various ways, in practice. As nice as being coherent is, I'd much rather the people who accept the state and help in practice.
Similar point with all fundamentalists vs non-fundamentalists: fundamentalists are more "pure" in their beliefs and practice, with fewer contradictions. But it's much better for the world to have fewer fundamentalists, and more moderate people who are willing to overlook contradiction in their ideology and practice
"As nice as being coherent is, I'd much rather the people who accept the state and help in practice." But they don't help! They just financially drain it!
I'm certainly very far from being an apologist for Charedim (I think their ideology is utterly false and parasitic), but there's a spectrum, and they're certainly relatively better than Satmar in many ways:
1) they (mostly) don't protest against Israel. As you point out in the piece, Satmar does protest against Israel.
2) So-called "Modern Charedim" are fairly Zionistic, in practice
3) There's more of a chance that over time, they'll shift, unlike Satmar. Isn't that what you're trying to do, in your persuasive writing?
Like you (maybe even more so), I'm pretty pessimistic (realist?), but it's still important to point out the significant differences in practice (despite the shift towards the Satmar ideology, that you correctly point out)
You might have added that last week Satmar invited Mamdami the probable next mayor of NewYork to their Suka. And fawned over him. He has repeated his commitment to see the Jewish State destroyed and his support for Jihad as well as calling Israel a genocidal state. If ever there were self hating Jews these must qualify.
As you have pointed out before, it's all about the money for the non fundamentaliats. If the money is cut, they will change. Not so for the fundamentalista. So there is at least some hope for them.
And of course, they don't hang out with the Ayatolahs or publicly praise them.
When what one wears, where one prays, and how much one learns have more importance than ethical behavior, hakarat hatov (being grateful for the good), and ahavat Yisrael, one’s true character is revealed.
Self-centeredness and taking without reciprocating are antithetical to legitimate Torah values.
Living on the dole has always been frowned upon.
Relying on learning and prayer for salvation, when there are life-threatening problems to be dealt with, did not save religious communities during the Holocaust or at any other time in our history.
Relying on miracles and passively awaiting help from Heaven is frowned upon by the sages. The vast majority of them refused to “make a spade out of the Torah,” and had jobs. In this generation not only would that be unacceptable, no charedim would marry their children. Nor would their opinions be respected.
The idea that there is no fundamental difference between the attitudes of the Agudah and Neturei Karta is nothing new. It is stated explicitly in Ba'ayos Hazman by R' Reuven Grozovsky, and you can find this sentiment in the letters of the Steipler and the speeches of Rav Shach. (However, I doubt whether the proponents of this idea truly know the Neturei Karta ideology.)
Ultimately, it comes down to anti-Zionist charedim are joining with our enemies to destroy the Jewish people, while non-Zionist charedim are destroying Israeli society from within. They are both awful.
>"I’ll take principled anti-Zionists any day over freeloaders who manipulate being part of Israel in order to take but are never willing to give."
While definitely true that Satmar is more principled and less hypocritical in this regard, I'd much sooner "take" non-principled Charedim. Since they're less fundamentalist, and overall more willing to integrate in various ways, in practice. As nice as being coherent is, I'd much rather the people who accept the state and help in practice.
Similar point with all fundamentalists vs non-fundamentalists: fundamentalists are more "pure" in their beliefs and practice, with fewer contradictions. But it's much better for the world to have fewer fundamentalists, and more moderate people who are willing to overlook contradiction in their ideology and practice
"As nice as being coherent is, I'd much rather the people who accept the state and help in practice." But they don't help! They just financially drain it!
I'm certainly very far from being an apologist for Charedim (I think their ideology is utterly false and parasitic), but there's a spectrum, and they're certainly relatively better than Satmar in many ways:
1) they (mostly) don't protest against Israel. As you point out in the piece, Satmar does protest against Israel.
2) So-called "Modern Charedim" are fairly Zionistic, in practice
3) There's more of a chance that over time, they'll shift, unlike Satmar. Isn't that what you're trying to do, in your persuasive writing?
Like you (maybe even more so), I'm pretty pessimistic (realist?), but it's still important to point out the significant differences in practice (despite the shift towards the Satmar ideology, that you correctly point out)
The question is whether they will evolve in time to be an asset to the nation or whether their freeloading will collapse the country first.
It will be interesting to see who it is they will ‘sacrifice’ to be allowed to be enlisted.
If חלילה, that Likud notion is passed
Why חלילה? The Ultra-Orthodox need to start doing their part. The Likud measure is a bare minimum.
the Likud measure is WORSE than nothing. It legalizes those who don't serve.
….also, those numbers are eerily similar to annual Charedi ‘losses’ to both secular and MO/ZO groups…
Don't compare MO Zionists to secular. We are talking about overwhelmingly Shomer Shabbat people!
You might have added that last week Satmar invited Mamdami the probable next mayor of NewYork to their Suka. And fawned over him. He has repeated his commitment to see the Jewish State destroyed and his support for Jihad as well as calling Israel a genocidal state. If ever there were self hating Jews these must qualify.
As you have pointed out before, it's all about the money for the non fundamentaliats. If the money is cut, they will change. Not so for the fundamentalista. So there is at least some hope for them.
And of course, they don't hang out with the Ayatolahs or publicly praise them.
When what one wears, where one prays, and how much one learns have more importance than ethical behavior, hakarat hatov (being grateful for the good), and ahavat Yisrael, one’s true character is revealed.
Self-centeredness and taking without reciprocating are antithetical to legitimate Torah values.
Living on the dole has always been frowned upon.
Relying on learning and prayer for salvation, when there are life-threatening problems to be dealt with, did not save religious communities during the Holocaust or at any other time in our history.
Relying on miracles and passively awaiting help from Heaven is frowned upon by the sages. The vast majority of them refused to “make a spade out of the Torah,” and had jobs. In this generation not only would that be unacceptable, no charedim would marry their children. Nor would their opinions be respected.
״אל תתיראי מן הפרושין ולא ממי שאינן פרושין אלא מן הצבועין שדומין לפרושין שמעשיהן כמעשה זמרי ומבקשין שכר כפנחס״
Indeed, hypocrites are worse.
The idea that there is no fundamental difference between the attitudes of the Agudah and Neturei Karta is nothing new. It is stated explicitly in Ba'ayos Hazman by R' Reuven Grozovsky, and you can find this sentiment in the letters of the Steipler and the speeches of Rav Shach. (However, I doubt whether the proponents of this idea truly know the Neturei Karta ideology.)