You sound like this situation has never been faced before and noone ever had to address similar situation.
In 1948, when the Islamonazis conquered Eretz Yisrael, they successfully expelled every Jew. There is a reason why all of Eretz Yisrael is Judenrein (except for a tiny sliver of the Southwest and a few small enclaves in south-central Eretz Yisrael).
In more recent times, the Social Justice Left successfully moved over 50% of the Syrian Arab population - more than 11 million Syrian Arabs were expelled and and internally displaced in Northern Eretz Yisrael - in less than 2 years. Notice that there was not a peep from the world because that was the moral thing to do. Israel has been more widely condemned and attacked for the Jenin operation this week than for what Arab Syria did over the past decade.
If the Israeli population had the will and any morality, they would arrange for a massive popular march on Jerusalem that could expel and kill off the Arab nationalist population in the Ir Atikah and the left-wing slums in a few hours. A social justice program similar to what Arab Palestine and Arab Syria did in 1948 (and Israel did in 2005) can be enacted quickly - there's more than enough population growth going on in Israel to quickly repopulate Northern Eretz Yisrael with the natives.
And the concept of "lone wolf" is ridiculous. It takes a society to raise a suicide bomber.
I think we must distinguish between Israeli Arabs and Arabs living in PA occupied lands. I live in northern Israel and deal with many Israeli Arabs. By and large, they just want to make a living, enjoy life like everyone else. Yes, there are exceptions (like the terrorist just now) but that is a real exception. Whenever I see a Corvette, Maserati or any other fancy car, I know it belongs to an Arab. They're doing very well, have beautiful homes (better than mine) go to all the universities in the north (Technion, Haifa U, etc, etc).
On the other hand, Arabs in south, who are under the rule of Hamas or the PA get such a distorted history of Israel that, no wonder, they want to get rid of us. They think there has been a Palestine for thousands of years, that there have been no Jews in Israel until 1948, etc., etc. The problem is that we are doing virtually nothing to stop this indoctrination and historical revisionism. Only through educating these Arabs do we have a chance at making peace with them. Not to say that it's easy to educate them. The UN doesn't care; the EU doesn't care and it's almost impossible for us to do it alone.
There is another big difference. The former are citizens of a democracy with relatively equal rights while the latter are living under a military occupation. Don’t confuse symptoms with causes.
If you change the incentives, you change the outcomes.
When Saddam stopped financing suicide bombers, they stopped. When the risk/reward formula is changed, so are the outcomes.
There are lots of ways to improve things, from encouraging gun ownership and concealed carry, to changing the incentives for the families and friends of evil-doers. Even lone wolfs need encouragement.
You can get advanced training in pretty much anything with YouTube. I don’t know what this guy had, but the fact is that anyone can attack a bunch of people with a knife or gun.
Was reading a relatively balanced article...until I hit these two things: "such a promising sign to see Mansour Abbas and his Ra’am party join the previous government..." and "...it was truly disappointing to see them condemn the very necessary IDF raid on Jenin. But on the other hand, they also condemned Friday night’s attack."
For a scholar whose very work is about rationalism and reality this is an incredibly naive take. And if the Rav honestly thinks their "condemnation" has any meaning, I have a slightly used bridge near my house that I can get the Rav a good deal on.
Israel is a democracy. If Raam loses votes then they lose power. So yes, those statements are significant because is the Raam voters don’t agree they can go elsewhere.
It makes a difference to Raam. They care about their own party. So if they say something publicly, it has significance to them. If they thought that their voters would all just abandon them, then they would not say it.
Here's a video of the conquerors in a Zionist-financed hospital, celebrating the ritual slaughter of Jews and humiliating a frum victim. Is it so difficult to kill these people? Is it so difficult to kill their Hamoula and their villages?
Short term, provisional solutions can help a little. As Noson said, expulsion of all Arabs is a pipe dream. This may sound radical, but may be doable. Insert an informational tracking chip in all Arabs (as is done in pets). If they remove it, they are subject to arrest.
In any case there is definitely a solution to the entire Arab problem. In reality it is a Jewish problem. Klal Yisroel has to eliminate sinas chinom. What was done to Noson 18 years ago was terrible sinas chinom. The bottom feeders who fomented it, would beg to differ. To them it was "ubearta hara mikirbecha." But, pardon my French, that is total stupidity. It was about as valid, from a Torah perspective as spitting at schoolgirls because their sleeves were half an inch above the elbows. YOU DON'T PROMOTE HATE BECAUSE OF A MACHLOKES HASHITOS! And as we all know, hate breeds more hate, and unfortunately it affected Noson as well (certainly in a more limited way).
When Klal Yisrael works (and works hard) to expunge sinas yisroel, the Arab problem will... evaporate. Don't ask me how, I think I am a "chochom" with respect to this theory, but I'm not a navi! But, perhaps our transformation to this good attitude will rub off on the Arabs, who are ONLY here as piranius for our misdeeds.
Sure, implant them with microchips. Or just make them wear a yellow moon & star sewn on to their clothes. Maybe put them in camps. Wait, that sounds familiar...
Yeah, I keep forgetting that part of history about Jews in Germany killing people, blowing up buses, committing acts of terror. Wait, that never happened.
Leaving aside for a moment the rest of the… interesting things you are saying, are you seriously suggesting forcibly implanting microchips in human beings like animals?
Can you really be unaware of how utterly insane that sounds?
Where oh where is The Hat? Someone tell him this post is free. Getting stale without him. Everyone here seems to be under the same boring assumption that the Arabs are at fault in this conflict.
Did mean to say that the partition was good. Just was replying to Rabbi Slifkin remark that would be the largest population transfer since WW 2. It was before my time so I don’t know the worlds reaction but I agree Israel would be condemned much stronger than Britain or India
Is there any evidence that bulldozing the home of a terrorist's family after an attack actually prevents other terrorist attacks? Or is it just something that seems like "the right thing to do"?
Prevents revenge killings against the family (and other price tag attacks). Like when the State of Palestine "arrested" the leadership of the Lion Cubs in Shechem/Neopolis and Owl 's Perch in Ganim and took them to safehouses.
The house demolitions are primarily to protect the suicide bomber's Hamoula.
In1948 India was decided into a Hindu state and moslem state. There wasn’t forced separation but many moved. Moshe Faglin(and others) advocated for paid insentives to leave for Arabs who do not want to live as loyal citizens in a Jewish state
The partition of India was brutally violent and not a process to be emulated. There indeed may not have been "forced separation" but those who stayed behind in the "wrong" country were beaten, raped, or mutilated.
Maybe avoid radicalizing the Palestinian citizens of Israel by continuing by continuing to pander to the right wing with items like the Nation-State law and the inclusion of Kahanists in the government? The most dangerous thing that could happen in Israel would be the radicalization of the Arab population. There is no way to erect barriers to citizens and the alternative is ethnic cleansing.
1. They're already radical. 2. I don't think many Ishmaelites are sitting around and thinking, "hey maybe we should stop murdering Jews. It might radicalize them."
So then why are there not constant terrorist attacks from inside Israel and why bother with the walls fences and border crossings from Gaza and tbe Wear Bank. There are already millions of radicalized terrorists inside Israel with rights to to everywhere. And yes the PA does cooperate with Israel to stop terror attacks. But the Palestinian citizens is Israel have free reign to go anywhere in Israel and in fact are not murdering Jews.
Really? Are there checkpoints all over Israel on this side of the Green line checking cars with Israeli plates? I’m here now and I haven’t noticed them.
because you don't hang out in ishmaelite neighborhoods. perhaps, if you would spend more time here and speak to people in the know, you would realize how ridiculous the situation is here. it is a miracle that more does not happen.
I live here. And I am under no illusions about the existence of many Israeli Arabs who would love to see Israel destroyed. However, there are also many, many Israeli Arabs who are not remotely interested in that. You should hang out more in different parts of the country.
This is a very strange argument. Pterodactyl Fossil is speaking about Arab nationalists and David Ohsie is speaking about Arabs who are not Arab nationalists. Why have an argument when you're talking about different things?
Actually, I'm talking about people unwilling to resort to political and terrorist violence regardless of their views. All the people responding here would be Arab Nationalists of some form if they were Arab.
It helps radicalize all non-Jewish citizens because it says that the state is for Hebrew speaking Jews. It is saying: he this is not your country, so don’t bother having loyalty. Because it is largely symbolic, it is not as bad as differential treatment of Jews and Arabs, but it also means that there was not need to enact it. An own goal.
The Arab nationalists and Leftists sole loyalty is to the government of Arab Palestine. That's the only flag they wave - and they wave it proudly!
Friday night after Meretz's people shot up a shul *every* Leftist and Arab nationalist in Eretz Yisrael celebrated. You can watch online the videos of the fireworks and Jew-killing parties from Yerushalayim to Damascus to Tel Aviv.
Arab nationalists living in Eretz Yisrael should be treated *precisely* the way that Zionists are treated by the Islamic government of Gaza.
The whole point of the law was to move a tiny tiny tiny tiny step toward self-respect. The pushback just goes to show how degraded and debased the Yahood have become under the iron boot of Quranic inhumanity.
David, often when others goof the spelling to make reading comprehension impossible, it's easy to just skip the comment. But yours are edifying and a pity not to be understood. Please double check. I appreciate it.
You sound like this situation has never been faced before and noone ever had to address similar situation.
In 1948, when the Islamonazis conquered Eretz Yisrael, they successfully expelled every Jew. There is a reason why all of Eretz Yisrael is Judenrein (except for a tiny sliver of the Southwest and a few small enclaves in south-central Eretz Yisrael).
In more recent times, the Social Justice Left successfully moved over 50% of the Syrian Arab population - more than 11 million Syrian Arabs were expelled and and internally displaced in Northern Eretz Yisrael - in less than 2 years. Notice that there was not a peep from the world because that was the moral thing to do. Israel has been more widely condemned and attacked for the Jenin operation this week than for what Arab Syria did over the past decade.
If the Israeli population had the will and any morality, they would arrange for a massive popular march on Jerusalem that could expel and kill off the Arab nationalist population in the Ir Atikah and the left-wing slums in a few hours. A social justice program similar to what Arab Palestine and Arab Syria did in 1948 (and Israel did in 2005) can be enacted quickly - there's more than enough population growth going on in Israel to quickly repopulate Northern Eretz Yisrael with the natives.
And the concept of "lone wolf" is ridiculous. It takes a society to raise a suicide bomber.
I think we must distinguish between Israeli Arabs and Arabs living in PA occupied lands. I live in northern Israel and deal with many Israeli Arabs. By and large, they just want to make a living, enjoy life like everyone else. Yes, there are exceptions (like the terrorist just now) but that is a real exception. Whenever I see a Corvette, Maserati or any other fancy car, I know it belongs to an Arab. They're doing very well, have beautiful homes (better than mine) go to all the universities in the north (Technion, Haifa U, etc, etc).
On the other hand, Arabs in south, who are under the rule of Hamas or the PA get such a distorted history of Israel that, no wonder, they want to get rid of us. They think there has been a Palestine for thousands of years, that there have been no Jews in Israel until 1948, etc., etc. The problem is that we are doing virtually nothing to stop this indoctrination and historical revisionism. Only through educating these Arabs do we have a chance at making peace with them. Not to say that it's easy to educate them. The UN doesn't care; the EU doesn't care and it's almost impossible for us to do it alone.
There is another big difference. The former are citizens of a democracy with relatively equal rights while the latter are living under a military occupation. Don’t confuse symptoms with causes.
If you change the incentives, you change the outcomes.
When Saddam stopped financing suicide bombers, they stopped. When the risk/reward formula is changed, so are the outcomes.
There are lots of ways to improve things, from encouraging gun ownership and concealed carry, to changing the incentives for the families and friends of evil-doers. Even lone wolfs need encouragement.
The “lone wolf” concept is a dangerous myth. There is always organizational support and training.
There is no need for organizational support to shoot people with a gun until you are killed. This happens all the time in the US.
This murderer had advanced weapons skills. He received training.
You can get advanced training in pretty much anything with YouTube. I don’t know what this guy had, but the fact is that anyone can attack a bunch of people with a knife or gun.
"You can get advanced training in pretty much anything with YouTube."
Utter nonsense.
“Utter nonsense.”
No, it isn’t.
and yet more utter nonsense. i didn't think anything could outdo that first howler.
Sure!
That's how we have the instant Talmidei Chachamim on this blog. Youtube and Torah AnyTime.
“There is always organizational support and training.”
No, there isn’t.
One solution that always works is Teshuva.
Was reading a relatively balanced article...until I hit these two things: "such a promising sign to see Mansour Abbas and his Ra’am party join the previous government..." and "...it was truly disappointing to see them condemn the very necessary IDF raid on Jenin. But on the other hand, they also condemned Friday night’s attack."
For a scholar whose very work is about rationalism and reality this is an incredibly naive take. And if the Rav honestly thinks their "condemnation" has any meaning, I have a slightly used bridge near my house that I can get the Rav a good deal on.
Israel is a democracy. If Raam loses votes then they lose power. So yes, those statements are significant because is the Raam voters don’t agree they can go elsewhere.
Ok, and they will go Hadash/Balad/Meretz. And there won't be a difference.
It makes a difference to Raam. They care about their own party. So if they say something publicly, it has significance to them. If they thought that their voters would all just abandon them, then they would not say it.
https://twitter.com/neveragainlive1/status/1619658349800460288
Here's a video of the conquerors in a Zionist-financed hospital, celebrating the ritual slaughter of Jews and humiliating a frum victim. Is it so difficult to kill these people? Is it so difficult to kill their Hamoula and their villages?
Here's a post by a typical Meretz person: https://twitter.com/sjabulhawa/status/1619512617042853888
You act like this is a complicated issue. Doesn't seem like the Left has any difficulty identifying their goals and successfully enacting them.
Surprised that you don't mention incentivized voluntary population transfer as a solution?
Er, because it isn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_from_Poland_during_and_after_World_War_II#:~:text=In%201950%2C%2059%2C433%20Germans%20were,Poland%20were%20shipped%20to%20Germany.
poland post WWII. but that was different.
There is certainly precedent for this i.e. the American Indians...
The Jews of Gaza in 2005 . . .
“There is certainly precedent for this i.e. the American Indians...”
Yes, look how well that worked out for them…
It worked out great for the Americans!
Short term, provisional solutions can help a little. As Noson said, expulsion of all Arabs is a pipe dream. This may sound radical, but may be doable. Insert an informational tracking chip in all Arabs (as is done in pets). If they remove it, they are subject to arrest.
In any case there is definitely a solution to the entire Arab problem. In reality it is a Jewish problem. Klal Yisroel has to eliminate sinas chinom. What was done to Noson 18 years ago was terrible sinas chinom. The bottom feeders who fomented it, would beg to differ. To them it was "ubearta hara mikirbecha." But, pardon my French, that is total stupidity. It was about as valid, from a Torah perspective as spitting at schoolgirls because their sleeves were half an inch above the elbows. YOU DON'T PROMOTE HATE BECAUSE OF A MACHLOKES HASHITOS! And as we all know, hate breeds more hate, and unfortunately it affected Noson as well (certainly in a more limited way).
When Klal Yisrael works (and works hard) to expunge sinas yisroel, the Arab problem will... evaporate. Don't ask me how, I think I am a "chochom" with respect to this theory, but I'm not a navi! But, perhaps our transformation to this good attitude will rub off on the Arabs, who are ONLY here as piranius for our misdeeds.
Sure, implant them with microchips. Or just make them wear a yellow moon & star sewn on to their clothes. Maybe put them in camps. Wait, that sounds familiar...
Yeah, I keep forgetting that part of history about Jews in Germany killing people, blowing up buses, committing acts of terror. Wait, that never happened.
Leaving aside for a moment the rest of the… interesting things you are saying, are you seriously suggesting forcibly implanting microchips in human beings like animals?
Can you really be unaware of how utterly insane that sounds?
Where oh where is The Hat? Someone tell him this post is free. Getting stale without him. Everyone here seems to be under the same boring assumption that the Arabs are at fault in this conflict.
Did mean to say that the partition was good. Just was replying to Rabbi Slifkin remark that would be the largest population transfer since WW 2. It was before my time so I don’t know the worlds reaction but I agree Israel would be condemned much stronger than Britain or India
Is there any evidence that bulldozing the home of a terrorist's family after an attack actually prevents other terrorist attacks? Or is it just something that seems like "the right thing to do"?
Prevents revenge killings against the family (and other price tag attacks). Like when the State of Palestine "arrested" the leadership of the Lion Cubs in Shechem/Neopolis and Owl 's Perch in Ganim and took them to safehouses.
The house demolitions are primarily to protect the suicide bomber's Hamoula.
That was meant tongue in cheek. It means that if a criminal is serious and trained how to commit his crime, it is unlikely he can always be stopped.
In1948 India was decided into a Hindu state and moslem state. There wasn’t forced separation but many moved. Moshe Faglin(and others) advocated for paid insentives to leave for Arabs who do not want to live as loyal citizens in a Jewish state
The partition of India was brutally violent and not a process to be emulated. There indeed may not have been "forced separation" but those who stayed behind in the "wrong" country were beaten, raped, or mutilated.
What happened to the Jews who remained in Arab Syria and Arab Palestine in 1948, after the Zionists lost the war?
2 million people died in the Indian Partition.
The 'lone wolf' story is intriguing, but not the entire story.
Who was the grandfather of the murderer after whom he was named? How was he killed?
Maybe avoid radicalizing the Palestinian citizens of Israel by continuing by continuing to pander to the right wing with items like the Nation-State law and the inclusion of Kahanists in the government? The most dangerous thing that could happen in Israel would be the radicalization of the Arab population. There is no way to erect barriers to citizens and the alternative is ethnic cleansing.
1. They're already radical. 2. I don't think many Ishmaelites are sitting around and thinking, "hey maybe we should stop murdering Jews. It might radicalize them."
So then why are there not constant terrorist attacks from inside Israel and why bother with the walls fences and border crossings from Gaza and tbe Wear Bank. There are already millions of radicalized terrorists inside Israel with rights to to everywhere. And yes the PA does cooperate with Israel to stop terror attacks. But the Palestinian citizens is Israel have free reign to go anywhere in Israel and in fact are not murdering Jews.
They try all the time. And thank God many times they are thwarted.
Really? Are there checkpoints all over Israel on this side of the Green line checking cars with Israeli plates? I’m here now and I haven’t noticed them.
because you don't hang out in ishmaelite neighborhoods. perhaps, if you would spend more time here and speak to people in the know, you would realize how ridiculous the situation is here. it is a miracle that more does not happen.
I live here. And I am under no illusions about the existence of many Israeli Arabs who would love to see Israel destroyed. However, there are also many, many Israeli Arabs who are not remotely interested in that. You should hang out more in different parts of the country.
OK so there are no checkpoints and searches but instead miracles? I wonder why those miracles don’t work for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.
How is the Nation-State law "right wing" and how does it radicalize the Arab nationalists living in Israel?
This is a very strange argument. Pterodactyl Fossil is speaking about Arab nationalists and David Ohsie is speaking about Arabs who are not Arab nationalists. Why have an argument when you're talking about different things?
Actually, I'm talking about people unwilling to resort to political and terrorist violence regardless of their views. All the people responding here would be Arab Nationalists of some form if they were Arab.
It helps radicalize all non-Jewish citizens because it says that the state is for Hebrew speaking Jews. It is saying: he this is not your country, so don’t bother having loyalty. Because it is largely symbolic, it is not as bad as differential treatment of Jews and Arabs, but it also means that there was not need to enact it. An own goal.
Loyalty?
The Arab nationalists and Leftists sole loyalty is to the government of Arab Palestine. That's the only flag they wave - and they wave it proudly!
Friday night after Meretz's people shot up a shul *every* Leftist and Arab nationalist in Eretz Yisrael celebrated. You can watch online the videos of the fireworks and Jew-killing parties from Yerushalayim to Damascus to Tel Aviv.
Arab nationalists living in Eretz Yisrael should be treated *precisely* the way that Zionists are treated by the Islamic government of Gaza.
The whole point of the law was to move a tiny tiny tiny tiny step toward self-respect. The pushback just goes to show how degraded and debased the Yahood have become under the iron boot of Quranic inhumanity.
I didn’t realize that you were an admirer of Hamas.
There is a lot that the Zionists can learn from the Muqawama about how to behave toward one's enemy.
David, often when others goof the spelling to make reading comprehension impossible, it's easy to just skip the comment. But yours are edifying and a pity not to be understood. Please double check. I appreciate it.
You mean "not" instead of "no". For some reason I brain always flips those two words when I am typing.