Not to make too light of serious things, but if the yeshivas are tasked with protecting Israel, I think it's reasonable to ask about their failure to prevent the attacks of Oct 7. Have they released the reports on what went wrong? Was it too much Rashi, not enough Tosfot? Will Roshei Yeshiva be held to account for failure to run the defense system properly? What changes are they implementing, and how would these changes have prevented the attacks?
What is there to address? He said something shallow and one sided as always. Yes, assuming the Charedim are wrong or hypocritical in their hashkafa, their promoting their stupid ideas is not taking responsibility. But if they do believe what they say, how is this not called taking responsibility?
NS made a very valid point. At no point did any chareidi say, this was all due to us not learning strongly enough. Schmuzzen about strengthening learning is NOT the same thing.
"We"? You're not a yeshiva student. And if you are, you shouldn't be here. Take a pic: You're a wannabe poser, or you're a slacker. You don't have a third option.
I don't think I should be here either. I have a thing called a yetzer hara. I'm not sure why this standard doesn't apply to you tho. Look in the mirror.
He's not a talmid yeshiva. Exceedingly few of whom appear to take that responsibility with anywhere near the seriousness, not to mention the hours and loss of sleep, put in by most kravi soldiers. Even jobnikim lose more sleep doing guard duty than you do on mishmar.
But after all, there's very little accountability for yeshiva students, as everyone already knows.
Here is something else to consider: By denying to participate in the war against our mortal enemies, the Haredim are denying the validity of the Mitzvah of Milchemet Mitzvah. Thus, they only accept 612 Mitzvot. Thus, they are all "Kofer Be'ikar." See Rambam, Hilchot Teshuvah 3:8.
It's not just people learning in Lakewood or wherever in chu"l. (And let's be honest, when American charedim make aliyah they're treated as sug bet. Competition for resources, maybe.) Well over 90% of Israeli Jews aren't charedi yeshiva students, and the charedi world shows no interest in signing them up.
I'm not 100% post like these are productive. We all *know* charedim in Israel never even think of themselves as "protecting," let along believe it. It's a show made up for gullible American charedim, some chardalim, and masorati Israelis and Likud politicians. Are you trying to convince them? OK, so maybe a little value. But to shame charedim? They're shameless. They don't even think about it.
——Tehillim 147:11 “H”S” wants those who fear Him, those who keep on hoping for His Chessed.”
——Tehillim 128: 1. Ashrei (fortunate) are all who fear HKBH, who walk in His ways.”
—To one’s country
——Pirkei Avot—chapter 2. Perek 2. “Rabban Gamliel, the son of Rabbi Judah HaNassi, said: It is good to combine the study of Torah with an occupation, for the effort required by them both keeps sin out of mind; while all Torah-study not combined with work will in the end cease and leads to sin. All who occupy themselves with the affairs of the community shall be engaged with them for the sake of Heaven, for the merit of their Fathers assists them and their righteousness endures forever.”
——Pirkei Avot—chapter 2. Perek 4. “…Hillel said: Do not separate yourself from the community; do not be sure of yourself until the day you die; do not condemn your fellow man until you have stood in his place.”
——Pirkei Avot—chapter 2. Perek 8. “Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakkai received the oral tradition from Hillel and Shammai. He used to say: If you have learned much Torah, do not claim special credit for yourself.”
—Extra thought—
[Many people believe their relationship with H”S” is a quid pro quo. Emunah seems like a tool to serve themselves.*
Some people feel undeserving of an earned reward, and so see everything they receive as a generous gift. This attitude leads directly to Hallel thanks to H”S” for His kindnesses.*]
Pray to Hashem , this exit from Israel will happen in our days. It will be a win / win for everyone . These people would not have to be labeled Draft Dodgers, and the rest of society won't have to support them with billions any longer.
And if they do leave, the remaining Zionist yeshivot would actually be able to agree on objective criteria for selecting the best candidates for an atuda of lomdim and potential future gedolim to be supported in a worthy manner. No more running after cheaters, no more violent demonstrations from lishkat ha-giyus going out to block the light rail.
The more I think about this, the better it sounds.
After years of searching for reasons to blame 'those guys' for stuff, this is what you came up with? This is the culmination of millions of years of evolution?
So you claim the yeshiva boys and Am Hatorah only take the credit. We have no right to blame them when they fail.
Another guy I saw came up with another bright one. Really it should have been much worse, Hamas should have killed 2 -3 thousand and the "shtarka learning" of yeshiva boys kept it down to 1,200.
It is so beautiful to see people having fantasies abut themselves. Kol Ha'Kovid
Yerushalmi Chagigah 1:7 relays that Judah HaNasi sent R Hiyya, R Assi, and R Immi to tour the towns of Eretz Yisrael and make sure that each one had scriptural and Mishnaic teachers, as these were considered the watchmen of the towns. In Makkot 10a, the Bavli relays an understanding of Psalms 122:2 that the inhabitants of Jerusalem were protected because the Jerusalemites engaged in Torah study. It does not say that Jerusalem was protected by the Torah studied in, say, Hebron, or anywhere else in Eretz Yisrael for that matter, just Jerusalem.
The towns are viewed separately from each other. How much more so someone studying literally an ocean away from the battle?
It would require a painful cultural change. There's no denying that. There really is a different culture in active military service versus Haredi daily lifestyle. It must be done but it's not to be dismissed
Pass a law that requires their service in one form or another AND a second law requiring able bodied men to work. Let them adapt or leave. Israel will be better off either way.
"The real reason why they don’t serve is ... They feel no sense of national obligation."
If you mean national obligation you mean obligation to the state, then this is true.
(2)
"And they want it to be this way, because their whole identity is based on not being part of the nation."
(2a) This is false. Opposition to the state is not the identity or raison-d'etre of the Charedi community.
(2b) The Charedi community is loyal to G-d and His Torah.
The Charedi opposition to the state is because the state claims to represent the Jewish people.
But in fact, the state is a completely secular entity. And with a puppet rabbinate and a משרד הדתות ministry of religionS (yes that is religionS in plural), the state is in no way loyal to G-d or to the Torah, or to the Jewish people.
You want to be talking about the nation, but you are actually talking about the state.
The people who don't want to be part of the nation of klal Yisroel are the people who separate themselves from G-d by (a) not keeping the Torah or (b) being mevazeh / disparaging (or disrespecting in any way) the Chachmey HaTorah and the mesorah that they received (and Yiftach b'doro k;Shmuel b'doro), or (c) by some other method.
The Charedim (as a whole, and some individuals notwithstanding) are NOT the people seprating themselves from the nation. But you and others like you ARE part of those people separating themselves from the nation. And to add insult to injury you claim that you have the real Torah (just like notzrim and muslims).
No, the people are being attacked, and the people have an enormous burden of army service, and the charedim are not interested in changing their lives to help in any way. You efforts to ignore and deflect from this are transparent and silly.
The people are being attacked. And the leaders of the Torah observant people in Eretz Yisroel have given their instructions. They may be unconventional, but Am Yisroel (as much as you don't want to admit it) is rather unconventional.
If you would like to follow the leaders who have a century (or so) old tradition of compromising the Torah for non-jewish national values, that is your choice.
"If you mean national obligation you mean obligation to the state"
Nonsense. Like כוחי ועוצם ידי, this is a fallacy that is trotted out repeatedly in this debate. It's stupid and shouldn't require a response. The definition of this מלחמת מצוה is defending Jewish lives from an attack upon us. The notion that the definition depends on the kind of gov't is stupid.
It is (in your word) "stupid" to say that the Charedim are attempting to be not part of the Jewish nation.
Whether the Charedim are right or wrong, you know very well that Charedim view themselves as being the part of the nation that is most correct, and that it is the non-observant and the shomer-Shabbos-zionists who are voluntarily departing from the Jewish nation. So to say "their whole identity is based on not being part of the nation" is just dumb.
The only way that statement can be understood is if by the word "nation" he meant "the state".
There may be soldiers whose intention is to defend the Jewish people. But the IDF as represented by its highest commanders care about the state and do not care about the Jewish people.
Therefore, while those individual soldiers might care about the Jewish people, their actions (as guided by the IDF) are in defense of the state and not the interests of Jewish people.
But I know that you will be unable to separate the two because you live in a physical and rational world only and therefore, in your eyes, the well being of those who live in Eretz Yisroel is determined only by the physical well-being of the state which happens to be governing over Eretz Yisroel.
Once again, there is an unacknowledged difference in premises.
The reason I wrote that is because his (and apparently your) perception of our "nation" is that it is inherently bound up with the state, and you(s) are unable to separate the two.
The Charedi perception of the nation does not include the state. To Charedim, the nation are "the Jewish people to whom G-d gave the Torah to observe", and as such, the leaders who tell us how to conduct ourselves are the Chachmey HaTorah and not the Knesset etc.
While you may counter with "there are other Chachmey HaTorah (in the zionist camp", we don't see it as such since the "Torah" they teach has been corrupted by secular nationalist values.
"The reason I wrote that is because his (and apparently your) perception of our "nation" is that it is inherently bound up with the state"
You've lost the plot. You talked about defending the State. I said it's about defending the people. And then you insist that I'm talking about defending the State. That's your mistake, not mine.
So pay attention: The people are under attack, they have been kidnapped, killed, maimed, exiled, and have their livelihoods destroyed. The State has not been kidnapped, killed, maimed or exiled. And the State's "income" will be restored by debt and more taxes.
So why are YOU talking about defending the State? Why aren't you talking about defending the nation?
" your perception of our "nation" is that it is inherently bound up with the state""
I think it's you who is conflating the nation with the State. Or least the defense thereof.
"So why are YOU talking about defending the State? Why aren't you talking about defending the nation?"
"I think it's you who is conflating the nation with the State. Or least the defense thereof."
Because I am responding to you. And as much as you would like to deny it, your mind can not separate the nation-state from Torah-nation.
You can point to the Jewish people who are suffering. But the fact is, as I have mentioned before, the IDF is not acting on behalf or for the benefit of for the Jewish people.
Even IF the IDF (as directed by its high commanders) is coincidentally defending Jewish people (read: children of Avraham Yitzchok and Yaakov and who received the Torah at Sinai), that is a side effect and not their goal. And while you might say: "So what - help them save Jews even if they are doing it coincidentally", the fact is that the state and IDF are also doing lots of harm (in ways you don't even think of or acknowledge), and as long as the Gdoley and Poskey hador make the shikul between the harm and the good and say that we do not get involved, we do not get involved.
No it's not. Replace "completely" with "partially" and you have what to talk about. Also, the use of the term "entity" in this context is tasteless as it's the term used by our enemies when they don't want to say "Israel". As such it might be אבק חוקות הגויים to use the word. Instead use a traditional term like ממשלת זדון.
The state is in fact completely secular. The Jewish character of the political state is cultural and not religious. The although rabbinate may include some serious Talmidey Chachamim, it is in fact a puppet rabbinate as it can only do what the state will allow. The state allows much religious character so that the state will look Jewish, but things like "reform conversions" etc. would never be discussed if the rabbinate was not a puppet.
I apologize for using the word entity. The Arabs use it to avoid calling it a state. I was saying that "the state is a..." and I could not find another noun. I realize that I didn't need a noun, I could have just said "the state is secular".
A 150-person forum including secular mayors, females, politicians and various different rabbis (so far no reform ones but this may not continue in the future). These are by far not the great Talmidei Chachamim appointing between them a spiritual leader for the Jewish state's rabbinate.
Ironically, the people who pushed for the worst candidates were the charedi "Gedolim." R. Elyashiv pushed for Metzger, despite having been told about his problems
You seem to object that females should have a say in who delineates Halacha, do you feel women have no halachic rights to be concerned about like inheritance, divorce, female health and status in the courts?
"Opposition to the state is not the identity or raison-d'etre of the Charedi community."
You've lost the plot. RNS wrote "their whole identity is based on not being part of the nation", he didn't mention "the state". Don't change the topic.
It is (in your word) "stupid" to say that the Charedim are attempting to be not part of the Jewish nation.
Whether the Charedim are right or wrong, you know very well that Charedim view themselves as being the part of the nation that is most correct, and that it is the non-observant and the shomer-Shabbos-zionists who are voluntarily departing from the Jewish nation. So to say "their whole identity is based on not being part of the nation" is just dumb.
The only way that statement can be understood is if by the word "nation" he meant "the state".
Please specify whom you are quoting. I can not be responsible for what all Charedim say. L'tzaareinu , not all Charedim know what they are talking about.
(2)
"... separation is what it means to be a Charedi."
In any case, the quote might be correct if its intention would be explicit. Separation from what?
You're misquoting/misremembering Rav Yitzchak Yosef. He said that if the government is successful at closing the yeshivos, the country will be in danger, so there's no point in staying. So they'll preemptively leave, before that happens.
My interpretation is more likely than Dr. Slifkin's.
"יש בחורים שהולכים שם למילואים, לא כולם זוכים ללמוד תורה. כולם זכו להיות אברכים שפטורים מהצבא? אבל שבט לוי פטור מהצבא. לא לוקחים אותם, בשום פנים ואופן. יהיה מה שיהיה. אם יכריחו אותנו ללכת לצבא – ניסע כולנו לחוץ לארץ. נקנה כרטיסים... אין דבר כזה".
"כל החילונים האלו שלא מבינים את זה, הם צריכים להבין שבלי התורה, בלי הכוללים, בלי הישיבות – לא היה קיום, לא הייתה הצלחה לצבא", הוסיף הרב הראשי הספרדי. "מה שמצליחים, הצבא, זה רק בזכות החיילים... סליחה, בני התורה (הטעות במקור). החיילים מצליחים בזכות בני התורה. רבותיי, כל אחד צריך לומר את זה בגאווה. כן, אנחנו עוסקים בתורה, והתורה היא זו שמגינה עלינו".
Perhaps a 'go fund me' for all the charedim who want to leave. One problem might be: Who will be willing to take them? Don't forget Cardal. The state will be free of supporting masses of free-loaders. There will be no dearth of exceptional Torah scholars from the Hesder yeshivot. There may even be some Charedim who will desire to stay and actually become part of the Jewish people. That would include serving in the Tzava. Don't forget Chardal.
I'm sorry you don't like my reaction but that's exactly how I see this post. You can do what you want as far as banning me, it's your blog, but you can't expect everyone to drink your words when you say things that are really shallow.
You straw-man the Charedi position into as nothingburger and knock this faux opponent down at ease. Your post, once again, ignores all nuance of the Charedi position.
I do not believe you understand the term "strawman". He has spilled many, many electrons giving examples of statements like these from the lips and pens of the gedolim and their followers
He hasn't once acknowledged that there are myriads of sources supporting the Charedi appreciation for torah, something they believe in a very different way than he does. I am on his side in many of his critiques but understanding the root of it is a huge deal, especially given that the alternative is a dangerous position for the spiritual continuity of our beautiful nation.
While I may appreciate 'myriads of sources supporting the Charedi appreciation for torah (sic), I don't feel that I have an obligation to support a lifestyle that is antithetical to what I believe in, that is, the people of Israel.
The alternative is a dark mechanical world which is too rational for is own good. Good bye nissim, good bye strong connections with Hashem and His torah, good bye tehilim and zchusim, good bye Hashem creating the world for our nation and how our zchusim and connection to him is what *really* controls the world, good bye importance of avodas Hashem as the reason why we're here.
It's dangerous because our strength is often from doing what we need to do despite little thinking we're wrong. Opening the door is dangerous because there are a lot of loud voices outside the beis midrash and it distracts from our focus as a nation on our Father and His will
Not to make too light of serious things, but if the yeshivas are tasked with protecting Israel, I think it's reasonable to ask about their failure to prevent the attacks of Oct 7. Have they released the reports on what went wrong? Was it too much Rashi, not enough Tosfot? Will Roshei Yeshiva be held to account for failure to run the defense system properly? What changes are they implementing, and how would these changes have prevented the attacks?
Of course they took responsibility! Every schmooze is about how we're not learning shtark enough!
Using something as an opportunity to strengthen your message is not called "taking responsibility."
You love to twist things, don't you? I think you even believe your own misrepresentations. Nebach.
All you have are venomous insults. You never address what he says or entertain the possibility you might be wrong.
What is there to address? He said something shallow and one sided as always. Yes, assuming the Charedim are wrong or hypocritical in their hashkafa, their promoting their stupid ideas is not taking responsibility. But if they do believe what they say, how is this not called taking responsibility?
NS made a very valid point. At no point did any chareidi say, this was all due to us not learning strongly enough. Schmuzzen about strengthening learning is NOT the same thing.
You failed to address that point.
"We"? You're not a yeshiva student. And if you are, you shouldn't be here. Take a pic: You're a wannabe poser, or you're a slacker. You don't have a third option.
I don't think I should be here either. I have a thing called a yetzer hara. I'm not sure why this standard doesn't apply to you tho. Look in the mirror.
He's not a talmid yeshiva. Exceedingly few of whom appear to take that responsibility with anywhere near the seriousness, not to mention the hours and loss of sleep, put in by most kravi soldiers. Even jobnikim lose more sleep doing guard duty than you do on mishmar.
But after all, there's very little accountability for yeshiva students, as everyone already knows.
I'm not either a yeshiva student. I work. But I should be learning in my spare time, all us men should
Then don't write "Every schmooze is about how we're not learning shtark enough!" in present tense.
Brilliant!!!
They would say that thanks to the study a bigger tragedy was prevented.
That's also true at the same time assisting to them, yes.
Here is something else to consider: By denying to participate in the war against our mortal enemies, the Haredim are denying the validity of the Mitzvah of Milchemet Mitzvah. Thus, they only accept 612 Mitzvot. Thus, they are all "Kofer Be'ikar." See Rambam, Hilchot Teshuvah 3:8.
It's not just people learning in Lakewood or wherever in chu"l. (And let's be honest, when American charedim make aliyah they're treated as sug bet. Competition for resources, maybe.) Well over 90% of Israeli Jews aren't charedi yeshiva students, and the charedi world shows no interest in signing them up.
I'm not 100% post like these are productive. We all *know* charedim in Israel never even think of themselves as "protecting," let along believe it. It's a show made up for gullible American charedim, some chardalim, and masorati Israelis and Likud politicians. Are you trying to convince them? OK, so maybe a little value. But to shame charedim? They're shameless. They don't even think about it.
Behavioral obligation to HS & one’s country
—To HaShem
——Tehillim 147:11 “H”S” wants those who fear Him, those who keep on hoping for His Chessed.”
——Tehillim 128: 1. Ashrei (fortunate) are all who fear HKBH, who walk in His ways.”
—To one’s country
——Pirkei Avot—chapter 2. Perek 2. “Rabban Gamliel, the son of Rabbi Judah HaNassi, said: It is good to combine the study of Torah with an occupation, for the effort required by them both keeps sin out of mind; while all Torah-study not combined with work will in the end cease and leads to sin. All who occupy themselves with the affairs of the community shall be engaged with them for the sake of Heaven, for the merit of their Fathers assists them and their righteousness endures forever.”
——Pirkei Avot—chapter 2. Perek 4. “…Hillel said: Do not separate yourself from the community; do not be sure of yourself until the day you die; do not condemn your fellow man until you have stood in his place.”
——Pirkei Avot—chapter 2. Perek 8. “Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakkai received the oral tradition from Hillel and Shammai. He used to say: If you have learned much Torah, do not claim special credit for yourself.”
—Extra thought—
[Many people believe their relationship with H”S” is a quid pro quo. Emunah seems like a tool to serve themselves.*
Some people feel undeserving of an earned reward, and so see everything they receive as a generous gift. This attitude leads directly to Hallel thanks to H”S” for His kindnesses.*]
_____________
*Verses for Zion, Rabbi Pesach Wolicki
Maybe it's time to outsource more full time haredi learning to חו"ל.
"Rav Yitzchak Yosef threatened that if the draft is enforced, the charedim will leave Israel, which will be in great danger without their Torah."
It would be tragic if the door closing hit anyone on the way out
Pray to Hashem , this exit from Israel will happen in our days. It will be a win / win for everyone . These people would not have to be labeled Draft Dodgers, and the rest of society won't have to support them with billions any longer.
Hope we see this yeshuah in our days! AMEN
Yes, but it would be a loss for any society that accepts them. Therefore, no society would willingly do so
And if they do leave, the remaining Zionist yeshivot would actually be able to agree on objective criteria for selecting the best candidates for an atuda of lomdim and potential future gedolim to be supported in a worthy manner. No more running after cheaters, no more violent demonstrations from lishkat ha-giyus going out to block the light rail.
The more I think about this, the better it sounds.
זקני עם הארץ כל זמן שמזקינין, דעתם מטרפת עליהם
After years of searching for reasons to blame 'those guys' for stuff, this is what you came up with? This is the culmination of millions of years of evolution?
It's almost as if you didn't want to understand.
So you claim the yeshiva boys and Am Hatorah only take the credit. We have no right to blame them when they fail.
Another guy I saw came up with another bright one. Really it should have been much worse, Hamas should have killed 2 -3 thousand and the "shtarka learning" of yeshiva boys kept it down to 1,200.
It is so beautiful to see people having fantasies abut themselves. Kol Ha'Kovid
Dreamers.
You are projecting.
Nobody takes credit for anything. We try our best, that's all.
But you should demand that all people strengthen their commitment to learning, and that encompasses from Kollel Yungeleit thru Naor Narkiss.
כל הפוסל במומו פוסל
ואינו מדבר בשבחא
Who says they need to be in Israel for their torah study to protect it?
Yerushalmi Chagigah 1:7 relays that Judah HaNasi sent R Hiyya, R Assi, and R Immi to tour the towns of Eretz Yisrael and make sure that each one had scriptural and Mishnaic teachers, as these were considered the watchmen of the towns. In Makkot 10a, the Bavli relays an understanding of Psalms 122:2 that the inhabitants of Jerusalem were protected because the Jerusalemites engaged in Torah study. It does not say that Jerusalem was protected by the Torah studied in, say, Hebron, or anywhere else in Eretz Yisrael for that matter, just Jerusalem.
The towns are viewed separately from each other. How much more so someone studying literally an ocean away from the battle?
It would require a painful cultural change. There's no denying that. There really is a different culture in active military service versus Haredi daily lifestyle. It must be done but it's not to be dismissed
Pass a law that requires their service in one form or another AND a second law requiring able bodied men to work. Let them adapt or leave. Israel will be better off either way.
You (chareidim) can truly believe in something totally false. Are they taking responsibility for foolishness or for a lie?
A flawless argument.
(1)
"The real reason why they don’t serve is ... They feel no sense of national obligation."
If you mean national obligation you mean obligation to the state, then this is true.
(2)
"And they want it to be this way, because their whole identity is based on not being part of the nation."
(2a) This is false. Opposition to the state is not the identity or raison-d'etre of the Charedi community.
(2b) The Charedi community is loyal to G-d and His Torah.
The Charedi opposition to the state is because the state claims to represent the Jewish people.
But in fact, the state is a completely secular entity. And with a puppet rabbinate and a משרד הדתות ministry of religionS (yes that is religionS in plural), the state is in no way loyal to G-d or to the Torah, or to the Jewish people.
You're talking about the state. I'm talking about the nation - the people. The state is completely irrelevant to any of this.
You want to be talking about the nation, but you are actually talking about the state.
The people who don't want to be part of the nation of klal Yisroel are the people who separate themselves from G-d by (a) not keeping the Torah or (b) being mevazeh / disparaging (or disrespecting in any way) the Chachmey HaTorah and the mesorah that they received (and Yiftach b'doro k;Shmuel b'doro), or (c) by some other method.
The Charedim (as a whole, and some individuals notwithstanding) are NOT the people seprating themselves from the nation. But you and others like you ARE part of those people separating themselves from the nation. And to add insult to injury you claim that you have the real Torah (just like notzrim and muslims).
No, the people are being attacked, and the people have an enormous burden of army service, and the charedim are not interested in changing their lives to help in any way. You efforts to ignore and deflect from this are transparent and silly.
The people are being attacked. And the leaders of the Torah observant people in Eretz Yisroel have given their instructions. They may be unconventional, but Am Yisroel (as much as you don't want to admit it) is rather unconventional.
If you would like to follow the leaders who have a century (or so) old tradition of compromising the Torah for non-jewish national values, that is your choice.
I think you mean *Christians* and Muslims, right? Be a big boy, I know you can do it.
Say something intelligent about the actual issues being discussed. Be a big boy, I know you can do it.
WADR, אין אומתינו אומה ....
"If you mean national obligation you mean obligation to the state"
Nonsense. Like כוחי ועוצם ידי, this is a fallacy that is trotted out repeatedly in this debate. It's stupid and shouldn't require a response. The definition of this מלחמת מצוה is defending Jewish lives from an attack upon us. The notion that the definition depends on the kind of gov't is stupid.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair
His whole ideology depends on his argument being stupid. Only a small % of people are willing to challenge their own beliefs.
It is (in your word) "stupid" to say that the Charedim are attempting to be not part of the Jewish nation.
Whether the Charedim are right or wrong, you know very well that Charedim view themselves as being the part of the nation that is most correct, and that it is the non-observant and the shomer-Shabbos-zionists who are voluntarily departing from the Jewish nation. So to say "their whole identity is based on not being part of the nation" is just dumb.
The only way that statement can be understood is if by the word "nation" he meant "the state".
"It is (in your word) "stupid" to say that the Charedim are attempting to be not part of the Jewish nation."
What I referred to as stupid is to argue about defending the State, when in fact the soldiers are defending the Jewish people.
I don't know what you're referring to, but it seems like you're changing the topic.
There may be soldiers whose intention is to defend the Jewish people. But the IDF as represented by its highest commanders care about the state and do not care about the Jewish people.
Therefore, while those individual soldiers might care about the Jewish people, their actions (as guided by the IDF) are in defense of the state and not the interests of Jewish people.
But I know that you will be unable to separate the two because you live in a physical and rational world only and therefore, in your eyes, the well being of those who live in Eretz Yisroel is determined only by the physical well-being of the state which happens to be governing over Eretz Yisroel.
Once again, there is an unacknowledged difference in premises.
The reason I wrote that is because his (and apparently your) perception of our "nation" is that it is inherently bound up with the state, and you(s) are unable to separate the two.
The Charedi perception of the nation does not include the state. To Charedim, the nation are "the Jewish people to whom G-d gave the Torah to observe", and as such, the leaders who tell us how to conduct ourselves are the Chachmey HaTorah and not the Knesset etc.
While you may counter with "there are other Chachmey HaTorah (in the zionist camp", we don't see it as such since the "Torah" they teach has been corrupted by secular nationalist values.
"The reason I wrote that is because his (and apparently your) perception of our "nation" is that it is inherently bound up with the state"
You've lost the plot. You talked about defending the State. I said it's about defending the people. And then you insist that I'm talking about defending the State. That's your mistake, not mine.
So pay attention: The people are under attack, they have been kidnapped, killed, maimed, exiled, and have their livelihoods destroyed. The State has not been kidnapped, killed, maimed or exiled. And the State's "income" will be restored by debt and more taxes.
So why are YOU talking about defending the State? Why aren't you talking about defending the nation?
" your perception of our "nation" is that it is inherently bound up with the state""
I think it's you who is conflating the nation with the State. Or least the defense thereof.
"So why are YOU talking about defending the State? Why aren't you talking about defending the nation?"
"I think it's you who is conflating the nation with the State. Or least the defense thereof."
Because I am responding to you. And as much as you would like to deny it, your mind can not separate the nation-state from Torah-nation.
You can point to the Jewish people who are suffering. But the fact is, as I have mentioned before, the IDF is not acting on behalf or for the benefit of for the Jewish people.
Even IF the IDF (as directed by its high commanders) is coincidentally defending Jewish people (read: children of Avraham Yitzchok and Yaakov and who received the Torah at Sinai), that is a side effect and not their goal. And while you might say: "So what - help them save Jews even if they are doing it coincidentally", the fact is that the state and IDF are also doing lots of harm (in ways you don't even think of or acknowledge), and as long as the Gdoley and Poskey hador make the shikul between the harm and the good and say that we do not get involved, we do not get involved.
(2)
" the state is a completely secular entity. "
No it's not. Replace "completely" with "partially" and you have what to talk about. Also, the use of the term "entity" in this context is tasteless as it's the term used by our enemies when they don't want to say "Israel". As such it might be אבק חוקות הגויים to use the word. Instead use a traditional term like ממשלת זדון.
" And with a puppet rabbinate"
Who are the chief rabbis? Who put them there?
The state is in fact completely secular. The Jewish character of the political state is cultural and not religious. The although rabbinate may include some serious Talmidey Chachamim, it is in fact a puppet rabbinate as it can only do what the state will allow. The state allows much religious character so that the state will look Jewish, but things like "reform conversions" etc. would never be discussed if the rabbinate was not a puppet.
I apologize for using the word entity. The Arabs use it to avoid calling it a state. I was saying that "the state is a..." and I could not find another noun. I realize that I didn't need a noun, I could have just said "the state is secular".
A 150-person forum including secular mayors, females, politicians and various different rabbis (so far no reform ones but this may not continue in the future). These are by far not the great Talmidei Chachamim appointing between them a spiritual leader for the Jewish state's rabbinate.
Ironically, the people who pushed for the worst candidates were the charedi "Gedolim." R. Elyashiv pushed for Metzger, despite having been told about his problems
Probably because of them.
You seem to object that females should have a say in who delineates Halacha, do you feel women have no halachic rights to be concerned about like inheritance, divorce, female health and status in the courts?
Chareidim don't generally accept the idea that halacha is man made.
They also tend to believe there to be a religious prohibition on women serving in positions of authority.
Ploni has concerns about the country however Ploni is not a descendant of King David and cannot be King.
A non Cohen has concerns about the temple service yet cannot serve.
Traditional Judaism has classes and hierarchies determined by birth.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ultra-orthodox-backed-kalman-ber-chosen-as-ashkenazi-chief-rabbi-in-runoff/
"Opposition to the state is not the identity or raison-d'etre of the Charedi community."
You've lost the plot. RNS wrote "their whole identity is based on not being part of the nation", he didn't mention "the state". Don't change the topic.
It is (in your word) "stupid" to say that the Charedim are attempting to be not part of the Jewish nation.
Whether the Charedim are right or wrong, you know very well that Charedim view themselves as being the part of the nation that is most correct, and that it is the non-observant and the shomer-Shabbos-zionists who are voluntarily departing from the Jewish nation. So to say "their whole identity is based on not being part of the nation" is just dumb.
The only way that statement can be understood is if by the word "nation" he meant "the state".
" So to say "their whole identity is based on not being part of the nation" is just dumb."
And yet Charedim has said that separation is what it means to be a Charedi.
(1)
"And yet Charedim has said that..."
Please specify whom you are quoting. I can not be responsible for what all Charedim say. L'tzaareinu , not all Charedim know what they are talking about.
(2)
"... separation is what it means to be a Charedi."
In any case, the quote might be correct if its intention would be explicit. Separation from what?
This a completely incoherent post. When did they claim that for Torah to protect, the Learners need to be located in Israel?
1) They claim that Bnei Brak is protected because of the Torah there
2) When Grodno yeshiva relocated to Beit Shemesh, they claimed that it would protect Beit Shemesh
3) Rav Yosef claimed that if charedim leave Israel, it will be unprotected
4) There are many more examples of such statements.
https://www.jdn.co.il/blog/1725840/
You're misquoting/misremembering Rav Yitzchak Yosef. He said that if the government is successful at closing the yeshivos, the country will be in danger, so there's no point in staying. So they'll preemptively leave, before that happens.
אם יכריחו אותנו ללכת לצבא – ניסע כולנו לחוץ לארץ.
https://www.inn.co.il/news/631475
I suspect you are imposing your own interpretation on what RYY said.
My interpretation is more likely than Dr. Slifkin's.
"יש בחורים שהולכים שם למילואים, לא כולם זוכים ללמוד תורה. כולם זכו להיות אברכים שפטורים מהצבא? אבל שבט לוי פטור מהצבא. לא לוקחים אותם, בשום פנים ואופן. יהיה מה שיהיה. אם יכריחו אותנו ללכת לצבא – ניסע כולנו לחוץ לארץ. נקנה כרטיסים... אין דבר כזה".
"כל החילונים האלו שלא מבינים את זה, הם צריכים להבין שבלי התורה, בלי הכוללים, בלי הישיבות – לא היה קיום, לא הייתה הצלחה לצבא", הוסיף הרב הראשי הספרדי. "מה שמצליחים, הצבא, זה רק בזכות החיילים... סליחה, בני התורה (הטעות במקור). החיילים מצליחים בזכות בני התורה. רבותיי, כל אחד צריך לומר את זה בגאווה. כן, אנחנו עוסקים בתורה, והתורה היא זו שמגינה עלינו".
Perhaps a 'go fund me' for all the charedim who want to leave. One problem might be: Who will be willing to take them? Don't forget Cardal. The state will be free of supporting masses of free-loaders. There will be no dearth of exceptional Torah scholars from the Hesder yeshivot. There may even be some Charedim who will desire to stay and actually become part of the Jewish people. That would include serving in the Tzava. Don't forget Chardal.
You can quote him, but your interpretation is not warranted by his words.
Perfect - leave!
Yet again, your comment had absolutely zero content and just wastes people's time. Next time I will ban you.
Meanwhile my inane comment is deleted. Apologies
I'm sorry you don't like my reaction but that's exactly how I see this post. You can do what you want as far as banning me, it's your blog, but you can't expect everyone to drink your words when you say things that are really shallow.
You straw-man the Charedi position into as nothingburger and knock this faux opponent down at ease. Your post, once again, ignores all nuance of the Charedi position.
I'm happy to have an honest discussion
I do not believe you understand the term "strawman". He has spilled many, many electrons giving examples of statements like these from the lips and pens of the gedolim and their followers
Love the electrons line:)
He hasn't once acknowledged that there are myriads of sources supporting the Charedi appreciation for torah, something they believe in a very different way than he does. I am on his side in many of his critiques but understanding the root of it is a huge deal, especially given that the alternative is a dangerous position for the spiritual continuity of our beautiful nation.
While I may appreciate 'myriads of sources supporting the Charedi appreciation for torah (sic), I don't feel that I have an obligation to support a lifestyle that is antithetical to what I believe in, that is, the people of Israel.
Okay, sure, but what kind of conversation are you going to have that isn't just sinaas chinam then?
What alternative are you referring to?
and why is it a dangerous position for the continuity of our beautiful nation?
The alternative is a dark mechanical world which is too rational for is own good. Good bye nissim, good bye strong connections with Hashem and His torah, good bye tehilim and zchusim, good bye Hashem creating the world for our nation and how our zchusim and connection to him is what *really* controls the world, good bye importance of avodas Hashem as the reason why we're here.
It's dangerous because our strength is often from doing what we need to do despite little thinking we're wrong. Opening the door is dangerous because there are a lot of loud voices outside the beis midrash and it distracts from our focus as a nation on our Father and His will