That article seems to make valid points and so do you. But both of you, one perhaps wilfully, the other I don't know, ignore the spiritual element which is not any less true than the physical reality, like it or not.
What happened is insane. I hope they crush every hamas member, every terrorist member, like cockaroaches.
But it is also true that the deeper trouble is a spiritual one, like it or not. If you don't like it, so don't read Tanach which is FULL of choice and consequence and forget Judiasm. Or maybe be just culturally Jewish. Matzah balls and jokes.
We must come close to Hashem and Torah. Keeping Shabbat and more must be front and center.
Like it or not, ignore it if you will, but it's a fact. Israel MUST crush its enemies.
But the problems will NEVER be resolved permanently without including the spiritual component in the resolution. It's completely impossible.
Oh, I agree. Though I suspect that we have very different ideas as to which spiritual components of Klal Yisrael are the ones that need the greatest work. Note that, for example, while you highlight specifically Shabbos, that does not reflect the general trend of what the Neviim or Chazal point to as the causes of the previous Destructions.
There is a whole perek in Yirmiyah about Shabbos...if they keep it they remain, if not the land will be destroyed.
The biggest cause by far, throughout Tanach, is idol worship. But Rambam is very clear that kfira is even WORSE than idols.
Does everyone need to get better? Sure.
But don't do the whole "non religious is better than this or that religious" garbage. If your not religious you don't keep shabbos and usually you don't beleive in ikrei emunah.
Therefore what is said throughout Tanach is speaking to us very loudly today.
You will push your own ideas of what's wrong...but even if you are right in some cases....that doesn't mean you are being intellectualy honest by yelling much louder about a lesser problem than a much more critical spiritual problem. The fundamentals of Judiasm are the most critical of all, no matter how you try to weasel it.
we have no guarantee to our staying in Israel. E.Y. spits out those who act in certain ways against the Torah. I hope and pray that we continue to stay, and safely, but we definitely need a religious awakening. and we can't all point fingers, but this starts with ourselves. we all know our shortcomings and how to improve. those who have been lax in their entire religious commitments need to strengthen that. those who have been strong with faults need to work on those faults. one thing we ALL must do is come together and grow as God's nation
Up in the north where we live there are probably 100 or more hyraxes that surround our yeshuv. Unfortunately, many carry a disease that is quite harmful to humans. They also like to eat the gardens of many of our residents. I'm possibly the only person here who thinks they are cute.
"Hamas .... are making some crucial mistakes.... they have .... caused Israel to unite in understanding that Hamas ..... cannot be tolerated."
Yes, this is lovely.... And it's also truly heartwarming to see how most sectors of Israel have united in understanding we are, ultimately, all one people. The Achdut is truly heartwarming.
But... Wouldnt it be EVEN better if Israel would also unite in understanding:
- that the catastrophic failure of Israel's much vaunted intelligence dispels the reliance on Kochi VeOtzem Yodi and demonstrates crystal clear how indeed we are so reliant on Hashem alone,
- that the losses were suffered primarily by secular Jews, and that some secular Jews made a shocking Chilul Hashem on the holiest part of the holiest day of the year?
A public Atzeres Teshuva and Tefiloh, in the heart of Tel Aviv, the site of that chilul hashem, including all sectors of Israeli Jewry UNITED in spirituality, would be perhaps be even more meaningful than any new political understanding of the nature of Hamas?
NB, Apologies if this post offends, I am striving to find meaningufl ways of building upon these tragic events
How wonderful to be part of a community in which you and your loved ones never need to risk your lives for Am Yisrael, everyone else always has to do it for you, and you also get to blame them for their own deaths. And no doubt you're also shocked and appalled when people resent charedim.
Natan. I am frum, open minded, ex-Yeshivish, NOT Charedi. I daven in heavily Charedi shuls (due to my locale), but I make sure to remind the Shatz to always say Tehillim after Davening for the Chayalim, and i was upset when the Rabbi in some doesn't.. I am very supporitve of the Chayalim and extremrely grateful for their Mesirus Guf Vonefesh.
However.
What i wrote has NOTHING to do with the Chayalim v Charedim argument, and i have zero idea why you are resorting to beating this tired old drum again. Please dont deflect.
Well, what does your cockeyed reasoning validate? That reliance on Hashem is a miserable endeavor almost guaranteed to fail if you consider all the horrors visited on Yidden through the last two millennia — the churban of bayit rishon and shaini, all the pogroms, inquisitions, massacres. and of course the Holocaust. Dependence on Hashem to protect from cruel evil is a joke. When it comes to God’s sanctuary from evil, you must recognize that When Hashem doesn’t kill you completely, it doesn’t make you stronger, it means he will try again to finish the job. Let’s hope he doesn’t succeed this time.
How dare I for what? Criticize you for your hashkafic misinterpretation and corruption of Hashem’s imperatives ? When you start screaming Na zi, you’ve already lost the argument. As for hating me, you’re right up there with the bloodthirsty Muslims who’ll kill you just for drawing a picture of their prophet.
But since you brought up hate, here is why Hashem might harbor ill will towards you.
Jeremiah 6-20
לָמָּה-זֶּה לִי לְבוֹנָה כ
מִשְּׁבָא תָבוֹא, וְקָנֶה הַטּוֹב מֵאֶרֶץ מֶרְחָק; עֹלוֹתֵיכֶם לֹא לְרָצוֹן, וְזִבְחֵיכֶם לֹא-עָרְבוּ לִי. 20 To what purpose is to Me the frankincense that cometh from Sheba, and the sweet cane, from a far country? Your burnt-offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices pleasing unto Me.
Isaiah 1, 11-15
לָמָּה-לִּי רֹב-זִבְחֵיכֶם יֹאמַר יְהוָה, שָׂבַעְתִּי עֹלוֹת אֵילִים וְחֵלֶב מְרִיאִים; וְדַם פָּרִים וּכְבָשִׂים וְעַתּוּדִים, לֹא חָפָצְתִּי. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? saith the LORD; I am full of the burnt-offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats.
יב כִּי תָבֹאוּ, לֵרָאוֹת פָּנָי--מִי-בִקֵּשׁ זֹאת מִיֶּדְכֶם, רְמֹס חֲצֵרָי. 12 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts?
יג לֹא תוֹסִיפוּ, הָבִיא מִנְחַת-שָׁוְא--קְטֹרֶת תּוֹעֵבָה הִיא, לִי; חֹדֶשׁ וְשַׁבָּת קְרֹא מִקְרָא, לֹא-אוּכַל אָוֶן וַעֲצָרָה. 13 Bring no more vain oblations; it is an offering of abomination unto Me; new moon and sabbath, the holding of convocations--I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly.
יד חָדְשֵׁיכֶם וּמוֹעֲדֵיכֶם שָׂנְאָה נַפְשִׁי, הָיוּ עָלַי לָטֹרַח; נִלְאֵיתִי, נְשֹׂא. 14 Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hateth; they are a burden unto Me; I am weary to bear them.
טו וּבְפָרִשְׂכֶם כַּפֵּיכֶם, אַעְלִים עֵינַי מִכֶּם--גַּם כִּי-תַרְבּוּ תְפִלָּה, אֵינֶנִּי שֹׁמֵעַ: יְדֵיכֶם, דָּמִים מָלֵאוּ. 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood.
טז רַחֲצוּ, הִזַּכּוּ--הָסִירוּ רֹעַ מַעַלְלֵיכֶם, מִנֶּגֶד עֵינָי: חִדְלוּ, הָרֵעַ. 16 Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil;
Amos 5-21
כא שָׂנֵאתִי מָאַסְתִּי, חַגֵּיכֶם; וְלֹא אָרִיחַ, בְּעַצְּרֹתֵיכֶם. 21 I hate, I despise your feasts, and I will take no delight in your solemn assemblies.
Uriah's Wife is an atheist who doesn't belong on this blog. Best not to respond to it. Nosson has become "krum" through his oppression, but he's not an atheist.
Hear that Rav Nosson? You’re a “krum” oppressor but not an atheist. To Sender, the logical extension is that you’re a camouflaged proselytizer disguised as an ordained Rov.
Maybe the lesson is that the IDF needs to be larger and better funded, and we need to stop directing billions of shekels towards financing the lives of those who profess to believe that we are reliant on Hashem alone, and let them just actually live off their bitachon? Maybe the lesson is that they need to stop shirking their responsibilities, and join the IDF so that there can be more soldiers on patrol?
"Maybe the lesson is that the IDF needs to be larger and better funded,"
Is there any evidence whatsoever that that's what caused the security breakdowns? If every charedi joined the army, is there any reason whatsoever to suppose Hamas couldn't have breached the fence, used drones to disable communication towers, and killed IDF soldiers while they were still in bed? https://substack.com/@shaulshapira/note/c-41871170
Even on your own terms, you aren't being rationalist. Just demagogic.
At least מילואים has too many people. I was sent home along with some of my friends. I dont think the army is too small or underfunded. There was large oversight and strategy issues (such as Netanyahu twidling his thumbs for 20 years has hamas got stronger and stronger).
Do you think the lessons you listed - an expanded army tougher than we have now is your very first reason - are logically higher in order of importance, on the list of spiritual reasons, from a religious Jewish perspective...than lessons such as believing in the 13 ikri emunah ...or keeping shabbos or taharat mishpacha? If you do, you have real issues.
You have to understand that from a religious, non-charedi perspective, the fact that the charedi community does not serve in the army is a tremendous RELIGIOUS failing.
But my main point was that EB's explanation as to why this tragedy happened was sheer speculation with absolutely no reason to believe that it's true, and one could just as easily speculate the exact opposite.
Sorry but IMO the 5 hour delay in dealing with 1000 terrorists is so shocking - bordering on overt Nissim (albeit upsetting ones) one can, and should, only look for spiritual causes.
What would Rambam think of your comment "the IDF needs to be better funded". Sorry but not only is this not factual, it's borderline Kefira.
Clearly you have no idea what Rambam writes about the churban. He says that it happened because the Jewish People did not pay sufficient attention to military effort.
Yes and instead, RMBM says they focused on silly things like placating idols...
So they went after idols, one terrible thing that is problem enough, and to make matters worse they became stupid by worrying about imaginary forces instead of real things like an army ..
But Israel DOES have a world class army. Does that mean that things possibly shouldn't have been tighter? Does that mean that serious investigations are not necessary and appropriate actions taken? Of course not.
But if Rambam was around today, I don't think he would discount a tougher army...but there is no way he would consider that the main spiritual reason...thats crazy.
You're inferring a big חידוש in the רמב"ם, since the vast majority of the population pays attention to the military effort. Is the רמב"ם referring to the חרדי minority who don't pay attention to the military effort (by enlisting)? And what about חרדים who like you & I are finding otherwise to support the military effort?
Whether the IDF failures were due to a lack of funding is something which has to be investigated and determined. I suspect that if there was less חרדים welfare and more money available to the IDF, the money would still go elsewhere.
From Rambam Letter on Astrology: "[T]his kind of involvement in false astrological works whose notions are essentially pagan led to the loss of our kingdom, the destruction of our Holy Temple and extended the duration of the exile to the present day. Our ancestors sinned and disappeared, for as we explained they strayed after false notions, ascribing to them purposeful ends, while neglecting the arts of martial defense and government. No wonder the prophets referred to them as ignorant and foolish. They were surely correct in this, for they pursued "vain things which cannot profit nor deliver because they are vain" (Samuel 12:21)
If they didn't stray after imaginary gods they wouldn't have weakend their government and army.
But if somehow they were idiotic enough...not due to idol indoctrination....to one day just close down their government and army...that would have been a wanton act of self destruction....sure......especially after the times when a king and govenment was instituted by Shmuel....but TODAY that is clearly not the main problem even if things need to be fixed up.
I'm not sure why you think that citation from Rambam is remotely relevant. Are you claiming that when charedi Gedolim say that religious Zionist rabbonim are deeply misguided that they are committing bizuy talmidei chachamim?
I'm not sure why you think one line from a letter in the Rambam is grounds to dismiss thousands of lines in Nevi'im and Chazal that give very different reasons for the Churban.
I don't think when Talmidei Chachamim argue with each other, that is bizui talmidei chachamim. But I have no doubt that what you do is.
So, being a hater of Hashem is not free of consequences.
It seems to me, sadly, that the Rambam has become the last refuge of scoundrels, even though he clearly doesn't say what the rationalists think he says. Even without knowing Natan's source for his claim, I am certain of this.
Natan, I don't know why you constantly misconstrue and misinterpret, but you do. You see what you want to see, and you conclude what you want to conclude.
Even now, you won't stop venting your hatred about Charedim. It's very sad. Do you think being wronged, in your eyes, grants you license to say what you say about a group that you rejected, and which in turn rejected you? What is the point?
Mostly true. But there's no doubt that once we have הלכות and obligations regarding מלחמת מצוה, that military effort become a spiritual activity. As such, ignoring the military effort becomes a sin, and not just wrong השתדלות.
"That the catastrophic failure of Israel's much vaunted intelligence dispels the reliance on Kochi VeOtzem Yodi and demonstrates crystal clear how indeed we are so reliant on Hashem alone". Obvious failures in intelligence in planning associated with the attack prove the importance of intelligence and planning. You seem to have it backwards.
If they were so obvious, why didn't you point them out? Why didn't Slifkin point them out? Why didn't anybody consequential point them out, *publicly*? Why wasn't the Israeli press screaming about it? It was so obvious, right? משיב חֲכָמִים אָחוֹר וְדַעְתָּם יְסַכֵּל
Obvious to the experts in retrospect as admitted by the experts. There is no perfect system. The Gaza wall stopped the second intifada and was wonderfully effective. But all systems fail and need to be improved. This is one the system should have caught signals were ignored, distractions occurred, and the enemy had some new tricks up their sleeves. It will be fixed.
"That the catastrophic failure of Israel's much vaunted intelligence dispels the reliance on Kochi VeOtzem Yodi and demonstrates crystal clear how indeed we are so reliant on Hashem alone"- he is right. When Hashem shows us how weak we are without His support, we should internalize the message, not say things like "no perfect system" and "obvious in retrospect". That's exactly what the Rambam is talking about when he says אֲבָל אִם לֹא יִזְעֲקוּ וְלֹא יָרִיעוּ אֶלָּא יֹאמְרוּ דָּבָר זֶה מִמִּנְהַג הָעוֹלָם אֵרַע לָנוּ וְצָרָה זוֹ נִקְרָה נִקְרֵית. הֲרֵי זוֹ דֶּרֶךְ אַכְזָרִיּוּת וְגוֹרֶמֶת לָהֶם לְהִדַּבֵּק בְּמַעֲשֵׂיהֶם הָרָעִים.
I have no clue what you are talking about. When something goes wrong you analyze the failure and improve. That's why there used to be many more plane crashes than there are now; every time there is an accident or near miss they figure out what was wrong with the system and improve it. In fact that is how all human driven improvement in all areas has ever worked. Your Rambam quote is wholly inapplicable. The chief of Israeli military intelligence didn't say that things just happen. He accepted that he had failed and been one of the causes of the tragedy.
Of course you analyze and improve. But you specifically were rejecting EB's statement. You said "Obvious failures in intelligence in planning associated with the attack prove the importance of intelligence and planning. You seem to have it backwards." seemingly negating the importance of Hashem's role and assigning the failure to humans missing the obvious, and then when I pressed you on the obviousness, you said "no system is perfect" which is דָּבָר זֶה מִמִּנְהַג הָעוֹלָם אֵרַע לָנוּ וְצָרָה זוֹ נִקְרָה נִקְרֵית.
But if you didn't mean that, then I have no problem.
"that the losses were suffered primarily by secular Jews, and that some secular Jews made a shocking Chilul Hashem on the holiest part of the holiest day of the year?" This is absurd and offensive on so many levels. Offensive because we don't blame the victims of an attack for being impacted. We look at practical remediations and our own moral failings. And quite absurd: because you disagree with actions of a group of people, a complete different group of people who appear similar to you were killed, along with lots of others in the same geographical area? Also absurd, because if you studied our history and use the same logic, then we have been punished again and again for observing the mitzvos and should be trying something else.
People of all camps do indefensible things all the time (if we grant that it was indefensible). Usually (always?) the just result is not mass slaughter of the people who did them, let alone the slaughter of others who weren't there but some portion of whom have the same outlook. That was all your invention.
Some Jews look white or have a white complexion but we are not white. The fact that Jews have always have a middle eastern identity, a unique cultural language (Hebrew), a unique religion (Torah and Judaism) and a unique history is proof that Jews did not originate in Europe despite living in Europe for some time. Besides, throughout history, Jews have never been considered "European" by the Europeans. Jews were attacked but pushed away, kick around from country to country in Europe. How can we be European?
The so-called Arab Palestinians, are not native. The so-called Palestinians do not originate in the land of Israel but outside and sounding it. They were Arabs and they were imported into Israel. Thus Jews are the original Palestinians. But since Palestine was a name given to s by the Romans, the real colonizers from Europe, I prefer to call us Israelites, after the true name of our territory, the land of Israel.
"Hamas’ strategy is based on the belief that we are European colonialists. "
Is it? I don't mean that rhetorically. (I know that the hijackers during the seventies were Marxist leftist anti-colonialist types. But Hamas isn't that.) I would appreciate sources either way.
Hamas needs to justify its own existence. They call themselves freedom fighters. They are thugs and evil men. They lie and pretend that Jews are not native to the land. But dig in Israel and you will find Jewish coins and Jewish ruins. You will never find Arab coins and Arab ruins.
I am Neturei Karta. Not the lunatic Moshe Hirsh variant, but Reb Amram's Neturei Karta, which decries and condemns Zionism's transformation of Judaism, but loves all Jews. Every Jew must pray for and donate tzedakah money for Jews in need and soldiers who fight barbarian murderers.
Thanks for your question. I never met the Satmar Rav. He was a man surrounded by thousands of chasidim. But I used to go over to Reb Amram's house and sit and shmues with him for hours. Rebbetzin Ruth Blau used to stay at my house on occasion when she visited Baltimore. Both were outstanding people. One time I was on my way up to Reb Amram's house and coming down the steps was an Israeli with a kipa seruga. I asked him if was coming from Reb Amram, and he said he was. I said to him (he was some prominent fellow in the government, I don't remember his name) You appear like a religious zionist, why would meet with Reb Amram. He then said that as far as he was concerned, Reb Amram was from the greatest Tzadikim he ever met, and the greatest and most sincere Ohev Yisroel alive!
I first met Reb Amram in Bayit Vegan at a Shalom Zachor in 1969 at the house of his stepson Uriel Davidson, Ruth's son. Uriel is an engineer and went to bene akivah yeshivos and university; his mother became Mizrachi when they first converted in France. But Uriel became very fond of Reb Amram. There's a lot more to tell, but I think I've said enough. I named my firstborn son after reb Amram. The Chazon Ish held Reb Amram in very high esteem.
Thanks. The reason I asked is because most anti-Zionists I know of were influenced by Satmar (I live in US) and was wondering why you picked Rav Amram. But from what you say that makes a lot of sense. I am well aware of Rav Amrams Ahavas Yisrael and that he was held in great esteem, also by the Brisker Rav, though I am not sure he always agreed with him.
Have you heard the famous story about the Brisker Rav and Reb Amram? The Brisker Rav told Reb Amram, "You are a Zionist!"
"Me?" said Reb Amram.
"Yes, you! You lead all those public protests against the zionist regime about chilul shabbos, pritzus, and all of their nevalos. But you go into the street believing in them they won't kill you, therefore you must also be a zionist. But I would never go to a protest because I tremble in fear and know with certainty they those goons would kill me."
when Reb Amram was put in the Ramle Prison for protesting the zionist public chilul shabbos, the Chazon Ish came to visit him. He came to the front desk to check in and the sergeant asked for his visitors permit. He said he didn't have one but still insisted he wanted to see Reb Amram. The sergeant told him all visitors had to fill out a form and get it approved by the government to visit prisoners. The Chazon Ish wouldn't budge and said he didn't need a permit. The sergeant called the warden and the warden knew who the Chazon Ish was and let him in. After an hour when he came out, he told his students gathered around him, "Shabbos Kodesh was sitting in jail." they asked him why he refused to get a permit. "Normally I have no problem getting a government permit when required, but out of Kavod for Reb Amram who doesn't recognize the government, I didn't get one."
How are hyraxes biologically similar to elephants? Are they like both manatees and elephants and have teeth that extend from a crypt at the back of the jaws and move forwards?
That was a nice reference and explanation of the relationship between hyraxes and elephants. The pictures were adorable. And the two types of animals look so much alike :).
It seems like a superficial comparison. Anatomically, elephants stand on their tiptoes, as I believe this blog has pointed out. Female elephants also have very human-like breasts, not udders.
What about walruses, they have similar dentation but aren't considered "related." I ask: if you believe in evolution, then why can't it just be there was a little parallel evolution (in the teeth) in the ancestors of hyraxes and elephants, but in no way are they related or come from one original source?
It's not my area of expertise, but I doubt it's yours either. In any case I looked it up online and according to the information I saw, there are some similarities. But I see you are the type of person to get all bent out of shape over meaningless nonsense. Perhaps you should seek professional help.
That article seems to make valid points and so do you. But both of you, one perhaps wilfully, the other I don't know, ignore the spiritual element which is not any less true than the physical reality, like it or not.
What happened is insane. I hope they crush every hamas member, every terrorist member, like cockaroaches.
But it is also true that the deeper trouble is a spiritual one, like it or not. If you don't like it, so don't read Tanach which is FULL of choice and consequence and forget Judiasm. Or maybe be just culturally Jewish. Matzah balls and jokes.
We must come close to Hashem and Torah. Keeping Shabbat and more must be front and center.
Like it or not, ignore it if you will, but it's a fact. Israel MUST crush its enemies.
But the problems will NEVER be resolved permanently without including the spiritual component in the resolution. It's completely impossible.
Oh, I agree. Though I suspect that we have very different ideas as to which spiritual components of Klal Yisrael are the ones that need the greatest work. Note that, for example, while you highlight specifically Shabbos, that does not reflect the general trend of what the Neviim or Chazal point to as the causes of the previous Destructions.
There is a whole perek in Yirmiyah about Shabbos...if they keep it they remain, if not the land will be destroyed.
The biggest cause by far, throughout Tanach, is idol worship. But Rambam is very clear that kfira is even WORSE than idols.
Does everyone need to get better? Sure.
But don't do the whole "non religious is better than this or that religious" garbage. If your not religious you don't keep shabbos and usually you don't beleive in ikrei emunah.
Therefore what is said throughout Tanach is speaking to us very loudly today.
You will push your own ideas of what's wrong...but even if you are right in some cases....that doesn't mean you are being intellectualy honest by yelling much louder about a lesser problem than a much more critical spiritual problem. The fundamentals of Judiasm are the most critical of all, no matter how you try to weasel it.
Your cavalier way of writing...two dudes...one dude killed his mother....demonstrates you are a lightweight, insincere Jew, at best.
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/a-voice-from-the-front-2
Idolatry? https://ishayirashashem.substack.com/p/smash-burn-crash
Or baseless hatred?
https://ishayirashashem.substack.com/p/stop-baseless-hatred
we have no guarantee to our staying in Israel. E.Y. spits out those who act in certain ways against the Torah. I hope and pray that we continue to stay, and safely, but we definitely need a religious awakening. and we can't all point fingers, but this starts with ourselves. we all know our shortcomings and how to improve. those who have been lax in their entire religious commitments need to strengthen that. those who have been strong with faults need to work on those faults. one thing we ALL must do is come together and grow as God's nation
Just read or re-read Job . It makes the argument we know nothing how God works to reward or punish.
Up in the north where we live there are probably 100 or more hyraxes that surround our yeshuv. Unfortunately, many carry a disease that is quite harmful to humans. They also like to eat the gardens of many of our residents. I'm possibly the only person here who thinks they are cute.
It was a beautiful posting. Well said.
Curious which disease
I like this! Are they similar to rabbits?
I guess you weren't around for the great Hyrax/Rabbit shafan debates. They are not.
Well thanks for teaching me, since I didn't know.
At this time, articles lke this one are what we need. Thank you Rabbi!
Yours,
Irwin (Yitzchak) Rubin
"Hamas .... are making some crucial mistakes.... they have .... caused Israel to unite in understanding that Hamas ..... cannot be tolerated."
Yes, this is lovely.... And it's also truly heartwarming to see how most sectors of Israel have united in understanding we are, ultimately, all one people. The Achdut is truly heartwarming.
But... Wouldnt it be EVEN better if Israel would also unite in understanding:
- that the catastrophic failure of Israel's much vaunted intelligence dispels the reliance on Kochi VeOtzem Yodi and demonstrates crystal clear how indeed we are so reliant on Hashem alone,
- that the losses were suffered primarily by secular Jews, and that some secular Jews made a shocking Chilul Hashem on the holiest part of the holiest day of the year?
A public Atzeres Teshuva and Tefiloh, in the heart of Tel Aviv, the site of that chilul hashem, including all sectors of Israeli Jewry UNITED in spirituality, would be perhaps be even more meaningful than any new political understanding of the nature of Hamas?
NB, Apologies if this post offends, I am striving to find meaningufl ways of building upon these tragic events
How wonderful to be part of a community in which you and your loved ones never need to risk your lives for Am Yisrael, everyone else always has to do it for you, and you also get to blame them for their own deaths. And no doubt you're also shocked and appalled when people resent charedim.
Natan. I am frum, open minded, ex-Yeshivish, NOT Charedi. I daven in heavily Charedi shuls (due to my locale), but I make sure to remind the Shatz to always say Tehillim after Davening for the Chayalim, and i was upset when the Rabbi in some doesn't.. I am very supporitve of the Chayalim and extremrely grateful for their Mesirus Guf Vonefesh.
However.
What i wrote has NOTHING to do with the Chayalim v Charedim argument, and i have zero idea why you are resorting to beating this tired old drum again. Please dont deflect.
@EB,
Well, what does your cockeyed reasoning validate? That reliance on Hashem is a miserable endeavor almost guaranteed to fail if you consider all the horrors visited on Yidden through the last two millennia — the churban of bayit rishon and shaini, all the pogroms, inquisitions, massacres. and of course the Holocaust. Dependence on Hashem to protect from cruel evil is a joke. When it comes to God’s sanctuary from evil, you must recognize that When Hashem doesn’t kill you completely, it doesn’t make you stronger, it means he will try again to finish the job. Let’s hope he doesn’t succeed this time.
Your people live and die for their religion and faith...how dare you. You talk like a nazi. I hate you.
How dare I for what? Criticize you for your hashkafic misinterpretation and corruption of Hashem’s imperatives ? When you start screaming Na zi, you’ve already lost the argument. As for hating me, you’re right up there with the bloodthirsty Muslims who’ll kill you just for drawing a picture of their prophet.
But since you brought up hate, here is why Hashem might harbor ill will towards you.
Jeremiah 6-20
לָמָּה-זֶּה לִי לְבוֹנָה כ
מִשְּׁבָא תָבוֹא, וְקָנֶה הַטּוֹב מֵאֶרֶץ מֶרְחָק; עֹלוֹתֵיכֶם לֹא לְרָצוֹן, וְזִבְחֵיכֶם לֹא-עָרְבוּ לִי. 20 To what purpose is to Me the frankincense that cometh from Sheba, and the sweet cane, from a far country? Your burnt-offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices pleasing unto Me.
Isaiah 1, 11-15
לָמָּה-לִּי רֹב-זִבְחֵיכֶם יֹאמַר יְהוָה, שָׂבַעְתִּי עֹלוֹת אֵילִים וְחֵלֶב מְרִיאִים; וְדַם פָּרִים וּכְבָשִׂים וְעַתּוּדִים, לֹא חָפָצְתִּי. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? saith the LORD; I am full of the burnt-offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats.
יב כִּי תָבֹאוּ, לֵרָאוֹת פָּנָי--מִי-בִקֵּשׁ זֹאת מִיֶּדְכֶם, רְמֹס חֲצֵרָי. 12 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts?
יג לֹא תוֹסִיפוּ, הָבִיא מִנְחַת-שָׁוְא--קְטֹרֶת תּוֹעֵבָה הִיא, לִי; חֹדֶשׁ וְשַׁבָּת קְרֹא מִקְרָא, לֹא-אוּכַל אָוֶן וַעֲצָרָה. 13 Bring no more vain oblations; it is an offering of abomination unto Me; new moon and sabbath, the holding of convocations--I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly.
יד חָדְשֵׁיכֶם וּמוֹעֲדֵיכֶם שָׂנְאָה נַפְשִׁי, הָיוּ עָלַי לָטֹרַח; נִלְאֵיתִי, נְשֹׂא. 14 Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hateth; they are a burden unto Me; I am weary to bear them.
טו וּבְפָרִשְׂכֶם כַּפֵּיכֶם, אַעְלִים עֵינַי מִכֶּם--גַּם כִּי-תַרְבּוּ תְפִלָּה, אֵינֶנִּי שֹׁמֵעַ: יְדֵיכֶם, דָּמִים מָלֵאוּ. 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood.
טז רַחֲצוּ, הִזַּכּוּ--הָסִירוּ רֹעַ מַעַלְלֵיכֶם, מִנֶּגֶד עֵינָי: חִדְלוּ, הָרֵעַ. 16 Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil;
Amos 5-21
כא שָׂנֵאתִי מָאַסְתִּי, חַגֵּיכֶם; וְלֹא אָרִיחַ, בְּעַצְּרֹתֵיכֶם. 21 I hate, I despise your feasts, and I will take no delight in your solemn assemblies.
Yea, he's talking to people like you.
Uriah's Wife is an atheist who doesn't belong on this blog. Best not to respond to it. Nosson has become "krum" through his oppression, but he's not an atheist.
Hear that Rav Nosson? You’re a “krum” oppressor but not an atheist. To Sender, the logical extension is that you’re a camouflaged proselytizer disguised as an ordained Rov.
Maybe the lesson is that the IDF needs to be larger and better funded, and we need to stop directing billions of shekels towards financing the lives of those who profess to believe that we are reliant on Hashem alone, and let them just actually live off their bitachon? Maybe the lesson is that they need to stop shirking their responsibilities, and join the IDF so that there can be more soldiers on patrol?
"Maybe the lesson is that the IDF needs to be larger and better funded,"
Is there any evidence whatsoever that that's what caused the security breakdowns? If every charedi joined the army, is there any reason whatsoever to suppose Hamas couldn't have breached the fence, used drones to disable communication towers, and killed IDF soldiers while they were still in bed? https://substack.com/@shaulshapira/note/c-41871170
Even on your own terms, you aren't being rationalist. Just demagogic.
At least מילואים has too many people. I was sent home along with some of my friends. I dont think the army is too small or underfunded. There was large oversight and strategy issues (such as Netanyahu twidling his thumbs for 20 years has hamas got stronger and stronger).
Do you think the lessons you listed - an expanded army tougher than we have now is your very first reason - are logically higher in order of importance, on the list of spiritual reasons, from a religious Jewish perspective...than lessons such as believing in the 13 ikri emunah ...or keeping shabbos or taharat mishpacha? If you do, you have real issues.
You have to understand that from a religious, non-charedi perspective, the fact that the charedi community does not serve in the army is a tremendous RELIGIOUS failing.
But my main point was that EB's explanation as to why this tragedy happened was sheer speculation with absolutely no reason to believe that it's true, and one could just as easily speculate the exact opposite.
Sorry but IMO the 5 hour delay in dealing with 1000 terrorists is so shocking - bordering on overt Nissim (albeit upsetting ones) one can, and should, only look for spiritual causes.
What would Rambam think of your comment "the IDF needs to be better funded". Sorry but not only is this not factual, it's borderline Kefira.
Clearly you have no idea what Rambam writes about the churban. He says that it happened because the Jewish People did not pay sufficient attention to military effort.
Yes and instead, RMBM says they focused on silly things like placating idols...
So they went after idols, one terrible thing that is problem enough, and to make matters worse they became stupid by worrying about imaginary forces instead of real things like an army ..
But Israel DOES have a world class army. Does that mean that things possibly shouldn't have been tighter? Does that mean that serious investigations are not necessary and appropriate actions taken? Of course not.
But if Rambam was around today, I don't think he would discount a tougher army...but there is no way he would consider that the main spiritual reason...thats crazy.
You're inferring a big חידוש in the רמב"ם, since the vast majority of the population pays attention to the military effort. Is the רמב"ם referring to the חרדי minority who don't pay attention to the military effort (by enlisting)? And what about חרדים who like you & I are finding otherwise to support the military effort?
Whether the IDF failures were due to a lack of funding is something which has to be investigated and determined. I suspect that if there was less חרדים welfare and more money available to the IDF, the money would still go elsewhere.
can you please provide a quote for this?
Please provide citation.
From Rambam Letter on Astrology: "[T]his kind of involvement in false astrological works whose notions are essentially pagan led to the loss of our kingdom, the destruction of our Holy Temple and extended the duration of the exile to the present day. Our ancestors sinned and disappeared, for as we explained they strayed after false notions, ascribing to them purposeful ends, while neglecting the arts of martial defense and government. No wonder the prophets referred to them as ignorant and foolish. They were surely correct in this, for they pursued "vain things which cannot profit nor deliver because they are vain" (Samuel 12:21)
If they didn't stray after imaginary gods they wouldn't have weakend their government and army.
But if somehow they were idiotic enough...not due to idol indoctrination....to one day just close down their government and army...that would have been a wanton act of self destruction....sure......especially after the times when a king and govenment was instituted by Shmuel....but TODAY that is clearly not the main problem even if things need to be fixed up.
Rambam Hilchos Talmud Torah 6:11
עָוֹן גָּדוֹל הוּא לְבַזּוֹת אֶת הַחֲכָמִים אוֹ לִשְׂנוֹאתָן. לֹא חָרְבָה יְרוּשָׁלַיִם עַד שֶׁבִּזּוּ בָּהּ תַּלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (דברי הימים ב לו טז) "וַיִּהְיוּ מַלְעִבִים בְּמַלְאֲכֵי הָאֱלֹהִים וּבוֹזִים דְּבָרָיו וּמִתַּעְתְּעִים בִּנְבִאָיו". כְּלוֹמַר בּוֹזִים מְלַמְּדֵי דְּבָרָיו. וְכֵן זֶה שֶׁאָמְרָה תּוֹרָה (ויקרא כו טו) "אִם בְּחֻקֹּתַי תִּמְאָסוּ", מְלַמְּדֵי חֻקּוֹתַי תִּמְאֲסוּ. וְכָל הַמְבַזֶּה אֶת הַחֲכָמִים אֵין לוֹ חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא וַהֲרֵי הוּא בִּכְלַל (במדבר טו לא) "כִּי דְבַר ה' בָּזָה":
I'm not sure why you think that citation from Rambam is remotely relevant. Are you claiming that when charedi Gedolim say that religious Zionist rabbonim are deeply misguided that they are committing bizuy talmidei chachamim?
I'm not sure why you think one line from a letter in the Rambam is grounds to dismiss thousands of lines in Nevi'im and Chazal that give very different reasons for the Churban.
I don't think when Talmidei Chachamim argue with each other, that is bizui talmidei chachamim. But I have no doubt that what you do is.
So, being a hater of Hashem is not free of consequences.
It seems to me, sadly, that the Rambam has become the last refuge of scoundrels, even though he clearly doesn't say what the rationalists think he says. Even without knowing Natan's source for his claim, I am certain of this.
Natan, I don't know why you constantly misconstrue and misinterpret, but you do. You see what you want to see, and you conclude what you want to conclude.
Even now, you won't stop venting your hatred about Charedim. It's very sad. Do you think being wronged, in your eyes, grants you license to say what you say about a group that you rejected, and which in turn rejected you? What is the point?
Mostly true. But there's no doubt that once we have הלכות and obligations regarding מלחמת מצוה, that military effort become a spiritual activity. As such, ignoring the military effort becomes a sin, and not just wrong השתדלות.
"That the catastrophic failure of Israel's much vaunted intelligence dispels the reliance on Kochi VeOtzem Yodi and demonstrates crystal clear how indeed we are so reliant on Hashem alone". Obvious failures in intelligence in planning associated with the attack prove the importance of intelligence and planning. You seem to have it backwards.
I am wondering if you are even Jewish
If they were so obvious, why didn't you point them out? Why didn't Slifkin point them out? Why didn't anybody consequential point them out, *publicly*? Why wasn't the Israeli press screaming about it? It was so obvious, right? משיב חֲכָמִים אָחוֹר וְדַעְתָּם יְסַכֵּל
Obvious to the experts in retrospect as admitted by the experts. There is no perfect system. The Gaza wall stopped the second intifada and was wonderfully effective. But all systems fail and need to be improved. This is one the system should have caught signals were ignored, distractions occurred, and the enemy had some new tricks up their sleeves. It will be fixed.
"That the catastrophic failure of Israel's much vaunted intelligence dispels the reliance on Kochi VeOtzem Yodi and demonstrates crystal clear how indeed we are so reliant on Hashem alone"- he is right. When Hashem shows us how weak we are without His support, we should internalize the message, not say things like "no perfect system" and "obvious in retrospect". That's exactly what the Rambam is talking about when he says אֲבָל אִם לֹא יִזְעֲקוּ וְלֹא יָרִיעוּ אֶלָּא יֹאמְרוּ דָּבָר זֶה מִמִּנְהַג הָעוֹלָם אֵרַע לָנוּ וְצָרָה זוֹ נִקְרָה נִקְרֵית. הֲרֵי זוֹ דֶּרֶךְ אַכְזָרִיּוּת וְגוֹרֶמֶת לָהֶם לְהִדַּבֵּק בְּמַעֲשֵׂיהֶם הָרָעִים.
I have no clue what you are talking about. When something goes wrong you analyze the failure and improve. That's why there used to be many more plane crashes than there are now; every time there is an accident or near miss they figure out what was wrong with the system and improve it. In fact that is how all human driven improvement in all areas has ever worked. Your Rambam quote is wholly inapplicable. The chief of Israeli military intelligence didn't say that things just happen. He accepted that he had failed and been one of the causes of the tragedy.
Of course you analyze and improve. But you specifically were rejecting EB's statement. You said "Obvious failures in intelligence in planning associated with the attack prove the importance of intelligence and planning. You seem to have it backwards." seemingly negating the importance of Hashem's role and assigning the failure to humans missing the obvious, and then when I pressed you on the obviousness, you said "no system is perfect" which is דָּבָר זֶה מִמִּנְהַג הָעוֹלָם אֵרַע לָנוּ וְצָרָה זוֹ נִקְרָה נִקְרֵית.
But if you didn't mean that, then I have no problem.
"that the losses were suffered primarily by secular Jews, and that some secular Jews made a shocking Chilul Hashem on the holiest part of the holiest day of the year?" This is absurd and offensive on so many levels. Offensive because we don't blame the victims of an attack for being impacted. We look at practical remediations and our own moral failings. And quite absurd: because you disagree with actions of a group of people, a complete different group of people who appear similar to you were killed, along with lots of others in the same geographical area? Also absurd, because if you studied our history and use the same logic, then we have been punished again and again for observing the mitzvos and should be trying something else.
It's not a matter of me, EB, disagreeing with the actions of this group.
They did something that noone can agree with, preventing Tefillos on Neilah.
Unless you think it was defensible?
The jews in the south who were atacked are traditional and respect Torah
sure, some.
but most of the ravers on Shabbos werent .
i am NOT saying they deserved any of what happened CH"V
im saying if any spiritual lessons are to be learned, perhaps the sector most affected should be the ones having the most thought about it
People of all camps do indefensible things all the time (if we grant that it was indefensible). Usually (always?) the just result is not mass slaughter of the people who did them, let alone the slaughter of others who weren't there but some portion of whom have the same outlook. That was all your invention.
One step at a time
Thank you. We must crush the terrorists physically in every possible way....and along with that...we must unite in teshuva. It's critical.
What an original, but strange, way of making your point - again.
It's not "Hamas' mistake". It's Hamas' lie. They know perfectly well that we are not European.
Some Jews look white or have a white complexion but we are not white. The fact that Jews have always have a middle eastern identity, a unique cultural language (Hebrew), a unique religion (Torah and Judaism) and a unique history is proof that Jews did not originate in Europe despite living in Europe for some time. Besides, throughout history, Jews have never been considered "European" by the Europeans. Jews were attacked but pushed away, kick around from country to country in Europe. How can we be European?
The so-called Arab Palestinians, are not native. The so-called Palestinians do not originate in the land of Israel but outside and sounding it. They were Arabs and they were imported into Israel. Thus Jews are the original Palestinians. But since Palestine was a name given to s by the Romans, the real colonizers from Europe, I prefer to call us Israelites, after the true name of our territory, the land of Israel.
We are not indigenous.
Abraham came from Ur.
Joshua conquered the Canaanites.
According to evolutionists, everyone came from Africa. The world should be returned to birds, the supposed descendants of the dinosaurs.
whats a shankbone?
Great post. We agree that the Land of Israel is our ancestral home. We are here to stay.
It's calledl leishmaniasis.
"Hamas’ strategy is based on the belief that we are European colonialists. "
Is it? I don't mean that rhetorically. (I know that the hijackers during the seventies were Marxist leftist anti-colonialist types. But Hamas isn't that.) I would appreciate sources either way.
Hamas needs to justify its own existence. They call themselves freedom fighters. They are thugs and evil men. They lie and pretend that Jews are not native to the land. But dig in Israel and you will find Jewish coins and Jewish ruins. You will never find Arab coins and Arab ruins.
I am Neturei Karta. Not the lunatic Moshe Hirsh variant, but Reb Amram's Neturei Karta, which decries and condemns Zionism's transformation of Judaism, but loves all Jews. Every Jew must pray for and donate tzedakah money for Jews in need and soldiers who fight barbarian murderers.
" Neturei Karta, which decries and condemns Zionism's transformation of Judaism,"
I condemn Neturei Karta's transformation and distortion of Judaism.
You don't come up to the dust under Reb Amram Blau's feet
Just curious, was he influential to you in any way or you simply agree with him? Is there a reason you pick him and not, let's say the Satmar Rav?
Thanks for your question. I never met the Satmar Rav. He was a man surrounded by thousands of chasidim. But I used to go over to Reb Amram's house and sit and shmues with him for hours. Rebbetzin Ruth Blau used to stay at my house on occasion when she visited Baltimore. Both were outstanding people. One time I was on my way up to Reb Amram's house and coming down the steps was an Israeli with a kipa seruga. I asked him if was coming from Reb Amram, and he said he was. I said to him (he was some prominent fellow in the government, I don't remember his name) You appear like a religious zionist, why would meet with Reb Amram. He then said that as far as he was concerned, Reb Amram was from the greatest Tzadikim he ever met, and the greatest and most sincere Ohev Yisroel alive!
I first met Reb Amram in Bayit Vegan at a Shalom Zachor in 1969 at the house of his stepson Uriel Davidson, Ruth's son. Uriel is an engineer and went to bene akivah yeshivos and university; his mother became Mizrachi when they first converted in France. But Uriel became very fond of Reb Amram. There's a lot more to tell, but I think I've said enough. I named my firstborn son after reb Amram. The Chazon Ish held Reb Amram in very high esteem.
I am definitely not a supporter of Neturei Karta, but those are fascinating stories. Reb Amram Blau was a very complex person.
Thanks. The reason I asked is because most anti-Zionists I know of were influenced by Satmar (I live in US) and was wondering why you picked Rav Amram. But from what you say that makes a lot of sense. I am well aware of Rav Amrams Ahavas Yisrael and that he was held in great esteem, also by the Brisker Rav, though I am not sure he always agreed with him.
Have you heard the famous story about the Brisker Rav and Reb Amram? The Brisker Rav told Reb Amram, "You are a Zionist!"
"Me?" said Reb Amram.
"Yes, you! You lead all those public protests against the zionist regime about chilul shabbos, pritzus, and all of their nevalos. But you go into the street believing in them they won't kill you, therefore you must also be a zionist. But I would never go to a protest because I tremble in fear and know with certainty they those goons would kill me."
when Reb Amram was put in the Ramle Prison for protesting the zionist public chilul shabbos, the Chazon Ish came to visit him. He came to the front desk to check in and the sergeant asked for his visitors permit. He said he didn't have one but still insisted he wanted to see Reb Amram. The sergeant told him all visitors had to fill out a form and get it approved by the government to visit prisoners. The Chazon Ish wouldn't budge and said he didn't need a permit. The sergeant called the warden and the warden knew who the Chazon Ish was and let him in. After an hour when he came out, he told his students gathered around him, "Shabbos Kodesh was sitting in jail." they asked him why he refused to get a permit. "Normally I have no problem getting a government permit when required, but out of Kavod for Reb Amram who doesn't recognize the government, I didn't get one."
You’re nothing but dust and ashes….
Halavai I should be like Avraham Avinu.
you don't come to any dust.
We need more sincere types to counter balance the harm that the small group of mentally deranged ones cause.
The truth is the small group that publicly associate with Arabs don't do too much damage. They are too far away in left field
How are hyraxes biologically similar to elephants? Are they like both manatees and elephants and have teeth that extend from a crypt at the back of the jaws and move forwards?
Hyraxes are not similar to elephants, but they are biologically related. See here:
https://kathykarn.com/blog/2021/4/7/the-elephant-and-the-hyrax#:~:text=The%20elephant%20and%20the%20hyrax%20are%20both%20descended%20from%20a,hyrax%20has%20vampire%20like%20incisors.
That was a nice reference and explanation of the relationship between hyraxes and elephants. The pictures were adorable. And the two types of animals look so much alike :).
It seems like a superficial comparison. Anatomically, elephants stand on their tiptoes, as I believe this blog has pointed out. Female elephants also have very human-like breasts, not udders.
What about walruses, they have similar dentation but aren't considered "related." I ask: if you believe in evolution, then why can't it just be there was a little parallel evolution (in the teeth) in the ancestors of hyraxes and elephants, but in no way are they related or come from one original source?
You are completely ignorant of dentition similarities.
It's not my area of expertise, but I doubt it's yours either. In any case I looked it up online and according to the information I saw, there are some similarities. But I see you are the type of person to get all bent out of shape over meaningless nonsense. Perhaps you should seek professional help.