If they believe Hashem will help win the war even without an army, then Hashem can also help with funding their yeshivas. That should be the response when they denand financial support
I read your post, and by the end I couldn’t tell if you were flogging a dead horse or auditioning to be the jockey of the Apocalypse. You say you’re “so sick of it all,” yet you gallop on for miles — spurring every poor equine metaphor into the glue factory. If you were truly done flogging that horse, maybe you’d stop mounting it every week for another dramatic ride through Outrage Meadow.
Now, Slifkin, I admire your stamina. Truly, you’ve got more endurance than a prize stallion on race day. But maybe, just maybe, you’ve confused righteous indignation with neigh-saying for sport. You seem less interested in dialogue and more in showing off how high your moral saddle sits.
You mock the idea that Torah study gives spiritual horsepower to the IDF — fine. But you write as though you alone know which kind of power keeps the country’s cart rolling. You might want to loosen those reins of certainty before you pull a muscle patting yourself on the back.
And that story about the horse at Ateres Shlomo — I get it, you needed an easy punchline. “Poor horse, suffering from a bunch of asses.” Cute. But honestly, Slifkin, when it comes to mixing moral outrage with barnyard imagery, you’ve cornered the market on horse manure. You’re shoveling it faster than anyone else in the field.
You sneer at a community you clearly don’t understand, while pretending you’re just asking “honest questions.” Please. You’re not a curious colt — you’re a one-trick pony. Every post trots out the same tired routine: outrage, condescension, and a final whinny about hypocrisy.
If you want to keep neigh-splaining how everyone but you has lost their moral compass, that’s your right. Just know that from over here, it looks less like moral clarity and more like a man circling the same paddock, yelling at the hay.
So do us all a favor, Slifkin: hitch your high horse to a fence post, take off the blinders, and maybe — just maybe — listen before galloping into your next tirade. Otherwise, the only thing getting exercised here is your ego.
Using all those paragraphs to say absolutely nothing, presenting no arguments, facts, defenses, mitigators.....you're only confirming Rabbi Slifkin's opinion of you and yours.
Funny thing — you keep saying you’re “waiting for substance,” but every time someone trots in with a well-fed argument, Slifkin bolts the stable door and sends them out to pasture. Meaning, he bans them. Always, without fail. It’s starting to look less like a debate and more like a one-horse show. He parades around the track, neighing about how no one else can ride at his level, but the moment someone saddles up with facts, he kicks them out of the ring for scuffing the sand.
You can’t keep claiming to want a real race when you keep disqualifying every other rider before the starting bell. At some point, people stop believing you’re after substance — and start realizing you just enjoy the sound of your own hooves echoing in an empty arena.
Once again, nice wordplay. But it seems that your comments remain up which I assume means you have a chance to make your arguments here - but you don't - ? Confused.
Keep it up, Rav Slifkin! Sooner or later there will be a reckoning, and your blog will be entered into evidence that all along it should have been understood what was at stake. No one will be able to say they didn't realize or couldn't have realized how thoroughly rotten the entire chareidi leadership had become.
The day after the rally, my daughter told us that my son-in-law had been called up to the northern border for his SIXTH round of reserve duty since this war broke out.
(In case anyone has forgotten, the October 7 war is not over -- and not just in Gaza. The northern borders still need extra defense given the unstable situations in both Lebanon and Syria.)
This will be the second pregnancy during which my daughter will be forced to juggle her nursing shifts and her other children in her husband's absence.
Please note: We support draft deferrals for those who are truly learning Torah. I'm just putting this out there as a reminder that there are real people suffering real burdens from the refusal of Haredi leaders to allow those NOT in yeshiva to be drafted and share in the nation's defense.
I'm genuinely curious: Why did you feel obligated to throw in that "We support..." note at the end? Why is it necessary to always throw in the equivocation? (And who is "we"?)
More importantly, *why* should that be the case? Why should there be *any* deferrals? Why can't Torah be learned before, during, and after service? And morally, why should charedim be treated differently? And do you not realize, if only on a practical level, how this would be abused?
First of all, because that's how we (my husband and I) genuinely feel. I have a 19-year-old grandson in yeshiva -- a dati-leumi yeshiva gevoha, as it happens -- and as long as he is learning seriously, I believe he is defending our nation.
Those who don't believe this naturally would not support any deferrals. From their perspective, they are right.
But *practically* speaking?
Let's start from a place where we can defend the demand for service from what *should* be the charedi perspective, which is that all young men not in yeshiva should be in the army. That was in fact the opinion of *numerous* Charedi gedolim of the post-state era, which has seemingly been abandoned by many of the rabbis speaking on behalf of the community now.
This is the pressure point we should be pressing on, firmly and consistently. So I think that passing a draft law that makes the distinction between learners and non-learners is the most practical way to get this integration started.
Of course, safeguards must be built in to guard against the abuse you refer to, which is in fact the situation that has prevailed to date, with many of the non-learners officially registered in some yeshiva but not actually learning there.
Yep. R' Chaim's total innovation about the nature of Torah, completely against Jewish tradition until that point, had seriously damaging long-term ramifications.
Withhold funding for the Charedim and when they protest, counter they need to study and pray more and Hashem will then provide. It is due to lack of devotion to Torah and Talmud that causes them to lose funding. Stick with it. deport them to Gaza to set up Yeshiva in Gaza. With proper prayer and study, Hashem will protect them. I have no doubt.
>>>I almost was not going to write another post about the charedi army refusal this week, because I am just so sick of it all and it feels like flogging a dead horse.
This rings hollow, as there is really little here that should have changed your mind. Specifically, Mishpacha has done a surprisingly good job for a generally charedi publication of taking all your concerns seriously. They are stuck when it comes to reporting on a major Charedi event such as this when their only option is to be supportive. They are isn't a polar bear's chance in the Negev (tried to think of a variation of the "snowball" you'd approve of. Any good?) that even the most klal Yisrael minded yeshivish publication is going to do what you wish they would. The balance is found among different issues. You have plenty to rightly complain about but picking on Mishpacha, which has taken an heroic step towards a greater klal Yisrael, is the wrong move and certainly not the thing to make yourself sick about.
I was at the rally and walked around much of the periphary to get a sense of the goings on. It was calm and utterly without venom. There were a few people I saw who were from different streams of Judaism and everyone was treated the same. Obviously there must have been pockets of idiots somewhere, but that goes for all rallys (I did walk past after the rally had finished and there were rowdy Bochurim who were annoying the police). Same goes for an idiot hitting a horse. There will always be idiots, maybe the Charedi system breeds more perhaps, but to use that as a reason to insult the Charedim is obviously incorrect.
Anyways I had a friend from a Mizrachi Yeshiva who visiting Meah Shearim looking for action once, he came back with torn Tzitzis. I had no sympathy for him, he clearly was looking for action. I know of someone else who had a similar experience, I have seen many protests in Meah Shearim where anyone can walk past and they are ignored. I am not accusing anyone of delibarely looking for trouble, but...
The story is true. That has been my experience and gives me a perspective on these events, if you have had a different experience then please share, but randomly insulting does seem to indicate you have no particular expertise or insight on this.
I used to read Mishpacha earnestly every Shabbos. Something changed recently and I am no longer interested. Part of that relates to never addressing R. Slifkin's concerns and presenting a strictly one-sided view of the happenings in Israel. with regards to Charedim and the draft.
If the Haredim had the same birth rate as the non-Orthodox population, who then would be blamed for the manpower shortage? Does the fact that they have larger families inherently place a greater obligation on them?
The unwillingness of the non-Haredi population to prioritize family growth and ensure the future of the country is just as ethically questionable as the Haredim’s reluctance to adapt.
Dati families certainly prioritize family growth, and as a family and community we have celebrated many births over the past two years, but it hasn't been easy.
We know young couples desperately trying to conceive, where every month is a lifetime, who basically lost two years of attempts, as the husband was away in miluim.
We know young families in which the husband witnessed unbearable horrors, but in the midst of it all, managed to bring new life into the world
We know families in which the wife/mother was called to miluim, and was away from her young children for days/weeks on end
and we know young men who were injured, mentally or physically, and will not be ready any time soon to establish or expand their families.
So please don't talk about the Chareidi monopoly on "family growth".
..and in answer to your question, obligation is individual. Our family and many others repeatedly had 3-4-5 and more of their children serving at once. Number of siblings whether low or high doesn't give any free passes
"Does the fact that they have larger families inherently place a greater obligation on them?"
Perhaps, because they have more skin in the game.
Maybe you should ask the converse: Does having smaller families place a greater obligation?
I'm not sure that there is obligation that is inversely proportional to family size. The converse is arguably (not my argument) true, as in נר לכל אחד ואחד, but that's not really the core obligation.
"is just as ethically questionable"
That's an audacious claim. Can you back that up? And do you real want the other 80% of the population to increase at the same rate as Charedim? How many seats will UTJ/Shas have in the Knesset under your demographic program?
They are constantly writing about supporting the soldiers, they have had a weekly War Diaries section in Family First almost throughout the last two years, most of which include parents of soldiers or deeply relating to the plight of soldiers and their families. They routinely directly treat the war as "our problem" and not "their problem" and they are highly appreciative of the state overall in their approach to the issue. They are charedi and come from that perspective but it is everything one can expect to see from a charedi publication pushing all the boundaries towards more klal Yisrael consciousness in particular and engaging the modern world on it's own term in particular - the latter being one of the key obstacles to Israeli charedim taking the army or the state seriously in the first place.
That's exactly why Charedim should show hishtadlut and join the IDF. But they insist on not serving and relying on the siyata dishmaya of Torah learning. Therefore we got to R. Slifkin's argument, "The IDF would only need 15 soldiers..."
Still, I understand that they must be scared to join the army. I would be personally.
If they believe Hashem will help win the war even without an army, then Hashem can also help with funding their yeshivas. That should be the response when they denand financial support
Dear Slifkin,
I read your post, and by the end I couldn’t tell if you were flogging a dead horse or auditioning to be the jockey of the Apocalypse. You say you’re “so sick of it all,” yet you gallop on for miles — spurring every poor equine metaphor into the glue factory. If you were truly done flogging that horse, maybe you’d stop mounting it every week for another dramatic ride through Outrage Meadow.
Now, Slifkin, I admire your stamina. Truly, you’ve got more endurance than a prize stallion on race day. But maybe, just maybe, you’ve confused righteous indignation with neigh-saying for sport. You seem less interested in dialogue and more in showing off how high your moral saddle sits.
You mock the idea that Torah study gives spiritual horsepower to the IDF — fine. But you write as though you alone know which kind of power keeps the country’s cart rolling. You might want to loosen those reins of certainty before you pull a muscle patting yourself on the back.
And that story about the horse at Ateres Shlomo — I get it, you needed an easy punchline. “Poor horse, suffering from a bunch of asses.” Cute. But honestly, Slifkin, when it comes to mixing moral outrage with barnyard imagery, you’ve cornered the market on horse manure. You’re shoveling it faster than anyone else in the field.
You sneer at a community you clearly don’t understand, while pretending you’re just asking “honest questions.” Please. You’re not a curious colt — you’re a one-trick pony. Every post trots out the same tired routine: outrage, condescension, and a final whinny about hypocrisy.
If you want to keep neigh-splaining how everyone but you has lost their moral compass, that’s your right. Just know that from over here, it looks less like moral clarity and more like a man circling the same paddock, yelling at the hay.
So do us all a favor, Slifkin: hitch your high horse to a fence post, take off the blinders, and maybe — just maybe — listen before galloping into your next tirade. Otherwise, the only thing getting exercised here is your ego.
With stable regards,
A Concerned Mare 🐴
"You sneer at a community you clearly don’t understand" On the contrary, I spent many years in that community, and I understand it perfectly.
I know people "in that community" for "many years" and they don't understand it. In that regard, you are not necessarily any different than them.
Using all those paragraphs to say absolutely nothing, presenting no arguments, facts, defenses, mitigators.....you're only confirming Rabbi Slifkin's opinion of you and yours.
AI generated drivel
ChatGPT?
Nice wordplay, but waiting to hear some substance.
Funny thing — you keep saying you’re “waiting for substance,” but every time someone trots in with a well-fed argument, Slifkin bolts the stable door and sends them out to pasture. Meaning, he bans them. Always, without fail. It’s starting to look less like a debate and more like a one-horse show. He parades around the track, neighing about how no one else can ride at his level, but the moment someone saddles up with facts, he kicks them out of the ring for scuffing the sand.
You can’t keep claiming to want a real race when you keep disqualifying every other rider before the starting bell. At some point, people stop believing you’re after substance — and start realizing you just enjoy the sound of your own hooves echoing in an empty arena.
Oh cut it out. You're not as clever as you think.
Apparently you aren't banned or I would not be able to read your comments. Hmmm...
Once again, nice wordplay. But it seems that your comments remain up which I assume means you have a chance to make your arguments here - but you don't - ? Confused.
Very sharply put, but all correct, alas.
דִּבְרֵ֤י חֲכָמִים֙ כַּדָּ֣רְבֹנ֔וֹת וּֽכְמַשְׂמְר֥וֹת נְטוּעִ֖ים בַּעֲלֵ֣י אֲסֻפּ֑וֹת
Keep it up, Rav Slifkin! Sooner or later there will be a reckoning, and your blog will be entered into evidence that all along it should have been understood what was at stake. No one will be able to say they didn't realize or couldn't have realized how thoroughly rotten the entire chareidi leadership had become.
The day after the rally, my daughter told us that my son-in-law had been called up to the northern border for his SIXTH round of reserve duty since this war broke out.
(In case anyone has forgotten, the October 7 war is not over -- and not just in Gaza. The northern borders still need extra defense given the unstable situations in both Lebanon and Syria.)
This will be the second pregnancy during which my daughter will be forced to juggle her nursing shifts and her other children in her husband's absence.
Please note: We support draft deferrals for those who are truly learning Torah. I'm just putting this out there as a reminder that there are real people suffering real burdens from the refusal of Haredi leaders to allow those NOT in yeshiva to be drafted and share in the nation's defense.
I'm genuinely curious: Why did you feel obligated to throw in that "We support..." note at the end? Why is it necessary to always throw in the equivocation? (And who is "we"?)
More importantly, *why* should that be the case? Why should there be *any* deferrals? Why can't Torah be learned before, during, and after service? And morally, why should charedim be treated differently? And do you not realize, if only on a practical level, how this would be abused?
First of all, because that's how we (my husband and I) genuinely feel. I have a 19-year-old grandson in yeshiva -- a dati-leumi yeshiva gevoha, as it happens -- and as long as he is learning seriously, I believe he is defending our nation.
Those who don't believe this naturally would not support any deferrals. From their perspective, they are right.
But *practically* speaking?
Let's start from a place where we can defend the demand for service from what *should* be the charedi perspective, which is that all young men not in yeshiva should be in the army. That was in fact the opinion of *numerous* Charedi gedolim of the post-state era, which has seemingly been abandoned by many of the rabbis speaking on behalf of the community now.
This is the pressure point we should be pressing on, firmly and consistently. So I think that passing a draft law that makes the distinction between learners and non-learners is the most practical way to get this integration started.
Of course, safeguards must be built in to guard against the abuse you refer to, which is in fact the situation that has prevailed to date, with many of the non-learners officially registered in some yeshiva but not actually learning there.
"and as long as he is learning seriously, I believe he is defending our nation."
How?
"Of course, safeguards must be built in"
You know like I do there won't be any safeguards and can't be.
""and as long as he is learning seriously, I believe he is defending our nation."
How?"
Answer: Nefesh HaChaim Shaar 4.
(If you are asking "how", then you really don't get the charedim.
Yep. R' Chaim's total innovation about the nature of Torah, completely against Jewish tradition until that point, had seriously damaging long-term ramifications.
Why should we support draft deferrals for those who are truly learning. How many hesder boys are seriously learning? Thousands.
And Ms. Ackerman might not mind if they get deferrals. You can disagree with her if you like, but you seem to be assuming that she agrees with you.
Withhold funding for the Charedim and when they protest, counter they need to study and pray more and Hashem will then provide. It is due to lack of devotion to Torah and Talmud that causes them to lose funding. Stick with it. deport them to Gaza to set up Yeshiva in Gaza. With proper prayer and study, Hashem will protect them. I have no doubt.
Charedim have a real problem with animals in general, almost like they're not living things.
"One wonders how this squares with the number of soldiers that were required in Torah times."
Easy: No one was learning then. :-) Of course, charedim believe they were, so they got some 'splainin to do, if they cared.
"Easy: No one was learning then."
עתניאל and עדינו העצני were learning back then....
And fighting.
You want more examples of learners back then?
בניהו and יהושע.
The last line should have been the title. It perfectly describes this article.
>>>I almost was not going to write another post about the charedi army refusal this week, because I am just so sick of it all and it feels like flogging a dead horse.
This rings hollow, as there is really little here that should have changed your mind. Specifically, Mishpacha has done a surprisingly good job for a generally charedi publication of taking all your concerns seriously. They are stuck when it comes to reporting on a major Charedi event such as this when their only option is to be supportive. They are isn't a polar bear's chance in the Negev (tried to think of a variation of the "snowball" you'd approve of. Any good?) that even the most klal Yisrael minded yeshivish publication is going to do what you wish they would. The balance is found among different issues. You have plenty to rightly complain about but picking on Mishpacha, which has taken an heroic step towards a greater klal Yisrael, is the wrong move and certainly not the thing to make yourself sick about.
huh? I am a mishpacha reader and when have they ever raised R. Slifkin's concerns?
I was at the rally and walked around much of the periphary to get a sense of the goings on. It was calm and utterly without venom. There were a few people I saw who were from different streams of Judaism and everyone was treated the same. Obviously there must have been pockets of idiots somewhere, but that goes for all rallys (I did walk past after the rally had finished and there were rowdy Bochurim who were annoying the police). Same goes for an idiot hitting a horse. There will always be idiots, maybe the Charedi system breeds more perhaps, but to use that as a reason to insult the Charedim is obviously incorrect.
Anyways I had a friend from a Mizrachi Yeshiva who visiting Meah Shearim looking for action once, he came back with torn Tzitzis. I had no sympathy for him, he clearly was looking for action. I know of someone else who had a similar experience, I have seen many protests in Meah Shearim where anyone can walk past and they are ignored. I am not accusing anyone of delibarely looking for trouble, but...
Mizrachi? I didn't realize there were specifically Iraqi yeshivot.
Your post is contemptible. "Looking for action"? What is wrong with your morals?
The story is true. That has been my experience and gives me a perspective on these events, if you have had a different experience then please share, but randomly insulting does seem to indicate you have no particular expertise or insight on this.
It hasn't been your experience. You wrote "clearly", which means you actually *don't* know.
I used to read Mishpacha earnestly every Shabbos. Something changed recently and I am no longer interested. Part of that relates to never addressing R. Slifkin's concerns and presenting a strictly one-sided view of the happenings in Israel. with regards to Charedim and the draft.
Haredim do seem to act like complete asses…
If the Haredim had the same birth rate as the non-Orthodox population, who then would be blamed for the manpower shortage? Does the fact that they have larger families inherently place a greater obligation on them?
The unwillingness of the non-Haredi population to prioritize family growth and ensure the future of the country is just as ethically questionable as the Haredim’s reluctance to adapt.
Pretty much everyone in Israel prioritizes family growth. It's why Israel has a far higher birthrate than any other Western country.
In any event, the two have nothing to do with each other. Charedi men serving from the ages of 18-21 is not going to affect birthrate.
Yes indeed.
There's even a societal expectation for gay people to have at least two or three kids.
Let me tell you about birthrate.
Dati families certainly prioritize family growth, and as a family and community we have celebrated many births over the past two years, but it hasn't been easy.
We know young couples desperately trying to conceive, where every month is a lifetime, who basically lost two years of attempts, as the husband was away in miluim.
We know young families in which the husband witnessed unbearable horrors, but in the midst of it all, managed to bring new life into the world
We know families in which the wife/mother was called to miluim, and was away from her young children for days/weeks on end
and we know young men who were injured, mentally or physically, and will not be ready any time soon to establish or expand their families.
So please don't talk about the Chareidi monopoly on "family growth".
..and in answer to your question, obligation is individual. Our family and many others repeatedly had 3-4-5 and more of their children serving at once. Number of siblings whether low or high doesn't give any free passes
Are they willing to forego government benefits on a per-person basis?
"Does the fact that they have larger families inherently place a greater obligation on them?"
Perhaps, because they have more skin in the game.
Maybe you should ask the converse: Does having smaller families place a greater obligation?
I'm not sure that there is obligation that is inversely proportional to family size. The converse is arguably (not my argument) true, as in נר לכל אחד ואחד, but that's not really the core obligation.
"is just as ethically questionable"
That's an audacious claim. Can you back that up? And do you real want the other 80% of the population to increase at the same rate as Charedim? How many seats will UTJ/Shas have in the Knesset under your demographic program?
They are constantly writing about supporting the soldiers, they have had a weekly War Diaries section in Family First almost throughout the last two years, most of which include parents of soldiers or deeply relating to the plight of soldiers and their families. They routinely directly treat the war as "our problem" and not "their problem" and they are highly appreciative of the state overall in their approach to the issue. They are charedi and come from that perspective but it is everything one can expect to see from a charedi publication pushing all the boundaries towards more klal Yisrael consciousness in particular and engaging the modern world on it's own term in particular - the latter being one of the key obstacles to Israeli charedim taking the army or the state seriously in the first place.
🎯
Yes.
That's exactly why Charedim should show hishtadlut and join the IDF. But they insist on not serving and relying on the siyata dishmaya of Torah learning. Therefore we got to R. Slifkin's argument, "The IDF would only need 15 soldiers..."
Still, I understand that they must be scared to join the army. I would be personally.