"Contrary to this person’s accusations, there are no "schemes" against Torah. There is a country of millions in which hundreds of thousands of men (including deeply religious men and hesder yeshiva students and rabbanim) are sacrificing their Torah studies, their jobs, their family life, sometimes their health, and sometimes their very lives (or their children’s lives) in order to keep everyone in Israel safe. And there is a sub-community of over a million people which refuses to share in this national burden, and instead drains the economy and weakens the country against its enemies."
Unfortunately, the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of young men sacrificing their lives doesn't mean there isn't a scheme against the Torah. There obviously is a scheme against the Torah on the part of the enemies of the Torah. I would have liked the young investment banker to acknowledge the sacrifices of the young men for their country, along with his acknowledgement of the great sacrifices of the chareidi community in their commitment to Torah, but I understand why he didn't do that. The point of his comment wasn't to compliment the brave young men in the army, but to criticize the enemies of the Torah. Sometimes the situation calls for some heavy-handed criticism, which I'm glad the young banker took upon himself to present. At the same time, he made sure to recognize the great benefit that the chareidi community provides to the country, by keeping the Torah ideals alive, which is much more important than being a tech founder or even a brave young soldier.
So, the ONLY possible explanation for the law is that they are "scheming against Torah"? Maybe they want 1/5 of the country to help out more with national defense, like every other country on planet earth? Or maybe they're making an honest mistake? Using the hysterical and infantile language like "scheming against the Torah" (all to common from that side) cheapens their argument and makes them sound silly.
Maybe this, maybe that, maybe the other thing. The facts are that the chilonim have been scheming against the Torah from day 1, from before the founding of the State. Making the Jewish people like any other non-Jewish country on earth is literally scheming against the Torah. But I think the reason why you find such language "hysterical or infantile" (ironic you are complaining about that on Slifkin's blog) is because you don't see secularism as being against the Torah in any way. Secularism "like every other country" is just the default, and Torah is a nice cultural extra as long as it's totally compatible with secular Zionist ideals.
Hey dear sir, did you know that Irrationalist Modoxism wrote about the scheme against the Torah? Or as he calls it, "the war against the Torah"? Enjoy! https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/
Yes of course I saw it. And I quote: "The current threatened violent interference with Torah education is an unprecedented escalation in the secularist war against the Torah, and should be taken seriously as such." Lol. He takes this way too seriously. I prefer Mordechai Hartman's take. Give me some schwarma and "Hi-tek"!
I meant it's obvious to anybody who know what Torah is. To people who think Torah is the equivalent of or lower than schwarma and "Hi-tek", you are quite correct.
The typical criticism is that schwarma is actually more important than Torah, and why can't chareidim understand that, and then comes along Ephraim and shifts the criticism to "The army has no "schwarma is better than Torah" policy." But nobody said that's the army's policy, Hartman was saying that's the ideology of non-chareidi society. He may be exaggerating a bit, and I wouldn't have necessarily said it that way, but his point is solid.
"...he made suret to recognize the great benefit that the Chareidi community provides to the country by keeping the Torah ideals alive which is more important than being a tech founder or being a brave young soldier".
"...a brave young soldier".doesn't contradict keeping Torah ideals alive. In fact we are in a war where protecting lives is supreme in living a Torah life. We do it to protect the Torah by fulfilling a basic obligation of gemilat chasadim , Lo tamod al dom reacha. Milchemet mitzvah,l to save the lives of our fellow Jews including our "Learners". To deny saving lives as part of the Torah is to reject the Torah. Just as the "banker has a plart of the reward for learning Torah by his high tech etc..
Schwarma is a rather simple and cheap fast food. Not the kind of food favored by those VCs who insist on the premium steakhouses.
The dissonant juxtaposition of cheap fast food with a high tech executive betrays how off base and tone deaf his comment is. I know no one who fits the description of whom he's criticizing.
And it's all nonsense. Because the typical criticism of life in Israel, was always how poor the country is and how the Teaneck/Rockland/Brooklyn high life is out of reach here. But mention the high tech miracle and then the criticism shifts to "there's more to life than money". If one forgets to recall the fish and melons of Egypt, they can always complain about the bumper fruit harvest of Israel.
Indeed, past complaints of others in the past do not negate the legitimacy of present complaints. Both complaints remain independently illegitimate and evoke the מתלוננים and מרגלים.
Maybe it was over the top of me to conflate his whining with other whiners. Maybe he's just offering an anti-thesis (too much גשמיות in Israel) to the thesis (Israel is poor), the צד השוה is is just complaining.
Compare:
Thesis: The draft of Charedim is wrong because the army doesn't need them; given advances of a high-tech army there is sufficient manpower.
Anti-thesis: It's not the fault of Charedim that the army over-relied on high-tech advances instead of increasing manpower. The Charedim should not be responsible to solve the army's self-created problem.
So the New York banker who works extreme hours and has little time to learn Torah himself wants to vicariously attach himself to those who claim they learn 24/7 even during a national emergency when they are needed elsewhere (except during Bein Hazmanim which is a Halacha L'Moshe Misinai) in order to save his own soul because he learned about bitul Torah when he was in yeshiva and feels somewhat guilty about the life he is living. As a banker, perhaps he should do the sums and realize that even if he becomes CEO of the bank, he won't have enough money to fund "a charedi-governed country."
When challenged, he responded that charedim would make the best soldiers and best venture capitalists if they were only given the chance. He clearly hasn't thought this through very well. He went to some parlor meeting, got all pumped up, and vented without thinking.
Well, here's what the head of the OU- the OU!- had to say:
"There is a genuine internal crisis in Israel over finding the way forward on the haredi enlistment issue. This war has taken a very heavy toll of death, injury, and profound stress on the soldiers and reservists of Tzahal and their families. Haredim have legitimate fears about the impact of enlistment on their cherished way of life. Neither side may cavalierly dismiss the concerns of the other. Many – though certainly not all – of the leaders and decision makers on both sides, including Gedolei Yisrael and army leaders, are working diligently to find ways to include haredim in the material efforts for Israel’s defense in a manner that respects and preserves their haredi way of life and that does not force enlistment of those who are Toraso Umnaso, full-time yeshiva students. Both sides understand that this issue can no longer be kicked down the road and that they must acknowledge the problems and work together quietly and productively to address them."
I'm sorry, that's sickening. A bit of the "both sides," a healthy dollop of fantasy, and some worse elements.
What a beautiful, inspiring message, Rabbi Nachum! We need the protection of Torah more than ever, and I'm glad that we can agree on that despite our divisions. That's what achdus is all about.
"Neither side may cavalierly dismiss the concerns of the other. "
Not accurate. The Charedi side has dismissed Charedi concerns. They've had such concerns for years, and they, for the most part have not sought out solutions. Instead they've put all their eggs in one basket: complete avoidance of the concern by avoiding the draft- even for the great many of men who are not learning full time and in no way meet the criteria for being שבט לוי.
" who are Toraso Umnaso, full-time yeshiva students."
What about non-full-time Yeshiva students? And this isn't an accurate definition of תורתו אומנותו!
" "אם יש לו מעט אומנות או מעט משא ומתן להתפרנס בו כדי חייו ולא להתעשר, ובכל שעה שהוא פנוי מעסקיו חוזר על דברי תורה ולומד תדיר, נקרא תורתו אומנותו".
A poor laborer who only has time on שבת to learn, when not sleeping from exhaustion meets the definition of תורתו אומנותו.
This article and attitude is very not nuanced (what's a better word for that?). The reason they are called haters of torah is more systemic than active. If you appreciate the chareidi values, it's not quite so hard to understand why they wouldn't join the army. It's not a place for a young Jewish adult, and all those who say that "they should stop being such delicate flowers" or whatever, clearly don't appreciate that the issues at hands aren't trivial to a chareidi. Mainly taiva and the issurei kares which conflict any young raging-hormone male will be confounded in a secular environment. Just because in the other community they are more "open" and are less careful in these areas and have been desensitized, that doesn't make the chareidi youth less at risk.
This is besides the is that it is the klal yisroel who follows the torah to this high standard, despite the many flaws we have, that Hashem allows us to keep going. Again, is your don't believe that, fine, but that will lead to a systemic hate for a person with a different value system because you *know* that your way is right prior and as such, absent these high values, all you see is childishness and selfishness.
I think we have a lot to learn from the other side which is why I frequent this blog - the focus on torah can diminish the proper respect for other very important values - but we have a lot to offer as well when it comes to caring about Hashem's laws, a truly noble value indeed, from a basic religious perspective. They ignore that which creates this systemic - yes - hate.
Reb Dave, I notice that you refer to "the chareidi values", much like "Evil Sorcerer of Dvinsk" made reference y'day to "chareidi ideology".
Shouldn't "chareidi values" and "ideology" be TORAH values and ideology?
If the whole chareidi "edifice" is just a social construct with its own unique sociocultural (rather than halachic) values and ideology, how then can it be justified, when fanatical adherence to that construct may, in fact, contravene many important mitzvos?
I would call it "torah values" but the people I'm speaking to or about on this blog aren't on the same page. I think it would be insulting and perhaps arrogant to pretend like I'm the only keeper of torah with my values. So I call it "chareidi values."
I also understand will that the chareidi values need help from the other side to be perfected. A lot of important things are ignored amongst the chareidi masses at the expense of instilling the values of the importance of torah. I wish we'd all come together and learn from each other. For this nuance as well I don't want to paint a brush and pretend that chareidim are the perfect "torah Jews" and that the others are not, even though I think the chareidim have the core in place
The real reason is not exactly kashrus and women, those are just symptoms of the real problem that the army is a כור היתוך לישראלית, which would spell the end of the Torah community if most of its young men went there. I've always said if you want chareidim to join the army, it needs to be separate non-Zionist army, controlled by chareidi rabbis and without even the Zionist flag. A separate chareidi militia. You wouldn't get the learners, but you would get most of the non-learners for sure. You would get most chassidim. That's the holy grail solution.
How can two allied armies fight alongside each other with common goals? Is that your question? And why do you assume that the chareidi militia needs its own airforce? Why can't it be allied with the Israeli airforce?
Of course chareidi rabbis would need to be the ones ultimately in charge of the chareidi army. It would need to develop its own military leaders through training and experience.
Since nobody has any real objections to my idea, I'll assume the only reason it hasn't been tried is because nobody has thought of it yet. (ESD smugly pats himself on the back.)
How would your "holy grail solution" possibly be coherently implemented? Who would the rabbis answer to? Would they be answering directly to the Defense Minister, or to a general?
I don’t think the issue at this point is individuals. It’s the politics. By now, the Charedi leaders had plenty of time to make a position known that would be consistent with their beliefs while acknowledging and respecting the rest of society’s legitimate needs. If the army wouldn’t accept it, fine. But they took an approach of vilifying the whole country and standing on their maximalist demands and that’s how they’re approaching this, too. Now, however upsetting this has been, during war time, it’s so much worse. All it would take would be some recognition that they are part of the country and have to find a way to act like it.
Over 50,000 Israelis are still displaced from their homes. Missiles from the north are killing and injuring civilians daily. Much of Hamas still remains. Soldiers in "Sadir" units have been fighting non-stop for months. Miluim soldiers are being called back for their 2nd or 3rd "round".
Of course the army should try (and does try) to accommodate Hareidi requirements...but this is a war. No one is there for their comfort or enjoyment
I agree with a lot of that. It's not summer camp. It's not a joke. And there is a really bad attitude permeating through my society that I really despise and condemn.
But your last line "comfort and enjoyments" says it all. You don't appreciate what it means to be nichshal in one issur even derabanan.
I recommend watching this hearing. (or at least the last half hour or so.) It's quite obvious that there is more going on than a simple need for manpower. Meirav Michaeli wants to ensure that women's rights aren't harmed, the guy from Yisrael chofshi wants to make clear that the Charedim need to comply because the state says so, and the actual charedi military guy is left to point out the obvious: There are a whole bunch of agendas at play here; shoring up manpower clearly isn't at the top of the list.
לדבריו, "כשתיבנה תורת הכלל בשלמות זה יהיה סיפור אחר. אנחנו, הציבור הדתי-לאומי, צריכים להוות באמת דוגמא שאפשר לחבר את העולמות בלי דתל"שים בעשרות אחוזים. אם רבים מהבנים והבנות לא מדקדקים קלה כבחמורה בגלל ההשתלבות, אז בגלל הרצון לבנות את תורת הכלל הם מפסידים בתורת הפרט. תאר לעצמך שכולם היו ציונים דתיים, מה היה נשאר מהתורה?
Please explain. I think that if they aren't willing to accommodate chareidim, it goes to show how much they truly need chareidim (not that much), and that their true agenda isn't because of those needs to begin with. If this is something that is legitimately important to a chareidi from as religious perspective, they should try to accommodate and not make a second pair of enemies. Lowers instead put aside our differences, work together and fight our common enemy.
They're not. they just care more about these things. Anyone is entitled to care and make demands that the army accommodate their religious needs (which is what chareidim should do)
To an extent. But it's irrelevant because they don't make these demands, they just whine like you about how the army is a toxic place as an excuse to not enlist like everyone else.
Which is where I agree with you that they should come to the table and discuss their demands. Incidentally, I think the reason they don't is because it became political and the other side isn't willing to listen either.
I'm not very familiar but the people I talk to that are very very familiar, or that I hear from on this blog, our the news that I hear (which may be biased) it seems like they are pretty bad at accommodating even small religious requests
Just look at the comments on yesterday's post. The other side is definitely not willing to listen to anything at all, just responding sarcastically, for example:
Natan Slifkin
Jul 10
Author
Yep, definitely more important to avoid army than to chas v'shalom have to train to carry an injured person.
From a torah perspective the whole mitzva of yefat toar addresses the issue telling us that even though we know that war is a Nissayon for the yetzer, we still have to go to war when it is a mitzvah. but from a practical approach, the army will , wants and knows that it must accommodate the needs of all frum Jews whether Charedi or Dati Leumi or stam shomrei torah. if these would all enlist and the leaders supported them, there is enough political clout to turn the army halachik lemahedrin. your arguments are fallacious and i would challenge any Talmid Chacham to show us in a teshuvah, based on legitimate sources that can support the Chareidi approach. this is really a shaming of the torah and a great chilul hashem as Rambam makes it clear in Hilchot Talmud torah about those who learn relying on others
Natan, he took that post down and so you might consider blacking out his name so he has the freedom not to be stained by a momentary single post. I think it's gracious to allow people to be forgotten if they've publicly stood down from their positions and this memorializes Mr. H in a way that doesn't allow this.
I happen to be a good friend of his, and while I detest this absolutely silly position, I do not reduce is generally wonderful character to one incident of verbal spit up.
If someone makes a statement on social media, s/he has every right to delete. We have all “typed before thinking” at some point or another.
But as an informational point, the words themselves stand (even if the individual has taken the post down) as a direct example of the twisted logic in the community.
(I personally believe that if he took the post down, and especially if he no longer holds such views, his name and face should be blocked out, but his twisted words should remain as testimony to the intellectual cancer that has infected much of the Chareidi community.)
I also hear both sides. But my feeling is that just as it's important to know that everything is recorded in Shamayim unless you do teshuvah, it's also important to know that things are recorded down here.
Even—or perhaps, especially—those who “spout off” w/o thinking and then regret it (after being taken to task) need to learn sooner or later that “the internet is forever”.
This guy Mordechai Hartman, just because he has a full time job at a bank does not make him open minded. He can still argue that the Medina wants to DISTROY Torah even though factually there is more learning in Israel then any other time in our history. Fanaticism and close-mindedness cut across all all sectors. It is a free country to think how you want.
Also, it is possible, as he brings in the Gidolim that came collecting, it might be that other put him up to it as a poster boy , to show look a successful beardless Jew - agrees with them. Why take down the post if you really believe it?
When a situation turns much worse than anyone would have expected - and I say this acknowledging everything written here (more or less) - one has to wonder how this all could have happened. The charedim of the earlier generations of the state were (more or less) people of integrity and midos and dedication to emes. Sure, there was a yawning gap between them and the modern state (and yes even the dati leumi) but their opposition to that world was deeply principled, and was practiced in a more or less appropriate way. I wonder if the cause of the current mess was their decision to get into politics. Their position was openly that they denied the legitimacy of the state outright and got involved solely to serve their own interests, which they had a right to do like any other consituency. Not all elements of the charedim agreed with this and stay out of politics to this day. But this cynicsm, I suspect, led to increasing disdain and disrespect for the rest of the country - whose politics also became overrun with cynical self-interest - to the point that they forgot there were real people on the other end of things. It became ok to use the state for their own needs and ignore not just the evil medina, which they justified as the correct belief, but the real people who live there, whose existence they pretty much deny, which absolutely cannot be justified. Part of the blame is Israeli politics, which really has lost whatever idealism it once had. This has also now destroyed the US. I don’t know how this can be fixed - on either side of the ocean.
The "gedolim" have been raising money, apparently very successfully in the Five Towns (very affluent orthodox neighborhoods in suburban NY). You may be interested in the coverage in the local newsletter. Of course, there is no hint that the money would be going to support Charedim to avoid the draft and shirk their responsibilities to society: https://5townscentral.com/2024/06/27/gedolim-visiting-us-raises-80-million-to-support-yeshivos-in-eretz-yisrael/
Looming? I run tuition for a larger day school. Looming was 40 years ago. Inflation and explosive housing and food prices are now. And the gvirim are sending more money to EY than to local schools.
"A financial crisis is rocking the chinuch system... money woes are not isolated to one particular... area, with mosdos chinuch spread throughout the U.S. suffering from far fewer big donors and a growing number of parents who are unable to pay full tuition."
Someone in the know - told me they never raised the amount they claim. It is a "first" that they had to admit, that so many of the "greatest" the "shpitz" came knocking at doors, and they did not reach their goals. How is that possible??
He said the handlers that took the Gidolim to these people, this amount was what they requesting, or demanded, or felt they could afford , The Giverim just looked at them saying we will try, or we will do our best . They were specifically not looking to push them for a full commitments during the visit. That is why so many agreed to meet them .
Lets see how much of that $$ actually shows up.
If you go to their website, you will see loads of "charity groups" looking to raise money in a community and see a goal of 100,000 (that a group set) and so far they raised $1,758 of that amount. The 100, 000 is wishful thinking. All of them are just like this.
Maybe the person who told me what transpired is correct - it is just a smoke screen.
I personally hope they raise the $107 million , as now the poor hard working Israeli is "off the hook" .The kolelim get their support form charity giving,, That is the way it should be, not FORCING other to separate from their hard earned money.
רשע מה הוא אומר, מה העבודה הזאת לכם, לכם ולא לו, ולפי שהוציא את עצמו מן הכלל כפר בעיקר, ואף אתה הקהה את שיניו ואמור לו בעבור זה עשה ה' לי בצאתי ממצרים לי ולא לו, אילו היה שם לא היה נגאל . Sorry to say this but it seems that the so called Olam Hatorah has gone off the derech, and as such it is high time we disconnect from it. B"H the true Olam Hatorah V'Hamitzvot has established a deep line of Talmedai Chachmim and we no longer have to feel ashamed or second best.
"Evil Sorcerer," I think I will institute a policy that people who insult me or my readers can only do so if they submit their comment under their real name.
No. The NYT has no problem with a well handled undead president. The pills, the IVs, the ECMOs and (just to be sure) continuous chiropractic adjustments are all okay. As long as he gets re-elected.
But if the polls are down, even if Biden would suddenly recover and become spry, alert and virile- it's still time to invoke the 25th.
"Contrary to this person’s accusations, there are no "schemes" against Torah. There is a country of millions in which hundreds of thousands of men (including deeply religious men and hesder yeshiva students and rabbanim) are sacrificing their Torah studies, their jobs, their family life, sometimes their health, and sometimes their very lives (or their children’s lives) in order to keep everyone in Israel safe. And there is a sub-community of over a million people which refuses to share in this national burden, and instead drains the economy and weakens the country against its enemies."
Unfortunately, the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of young men sacrificing their lives doesn't mean there isn't a scheme against the Torah. There obviously is a scheme against the Torah on the part of the enemies of the Torah. I would have liked the young investment banker to acknowledge the sacrifices of the young men for their country, along with his acknowledgement of the great sacrifices of the chareidi community in their commitment to Torah, but I understand why he didn't do that. The point of his comment wasn't to compliment the brave young men in the army, but to criticize the enemies of the Torah. Sometimes the situation calls for some heavy-handed criticism, which I'm glad the young banker took upon himself to present. At the same time, he made sure to recognize the great benefit that the chareidi community provides to the country, by keeping the Torah ideals alive, which is much more important than being a tech founder or even a brave young soldier.
So, the ONLY possible explanation for the law is that they are "scheming against Torah"? Maybe they want 1/5 of the country to help out more with national defense, like every other country on planet earth? Or maybe they're making an honest mistake? Using the hysterical and infantile language like "scheming against the Torah" (all to common from that side) cheapens their argument and makes them sound silly.
Maybe this, maybe that, maybe the other thing. The facts are that the chilonim have been scheming against the Torah from day 1, from before the founding of the State. Making the Jewish people like any other non-Jewish country on earth is literally scheming against the Torah. But I think the reason why you find such language "hysterical or infantile" (ironic you are complaining about that on Slifkin's blog) is because you don't see secularism as being against the Torah in any way. Secularism "like every other country" is just the default, and Torah is a nice cultural extra as long as it's totally compatible with secular Zionist ideals.
Hey dear sir, did you know that Irrationalist Modoxism wrote about the scheme against the Torah? Or as he calls it, "the war against the Torah"? Enjoy! https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/
Yes of course I saw it. And I quote: "The current threatened violent interference with Torah education is an unprecedented escalation in the secularist war against the Torah, and should be taken seriously as such." Lol. He takes this way too seriously. I prefer Mordechai Hartman's take. Give me some schwarma and "Hi-tek"!
" There obviously is a scheme against the Torah "
If it were obvious, you wouldn't have to say it.
Now that it's clear that it's not obvious, I'll add that it's not true.
I meant it's obvious to anybody who know what Torah is. To people who think Torah is the equivalent of or lower than schwarma and "Hi-tek", you are quite correct.
" To people who think Torah is the equivalent of or lower than schwarma"
Who are these people who think that Torah is less than schwarma? Even a secularist like Ben Yehudah respected Torah!
You're making things up. The army has no "schwarma is better than Torah" policy.
The typical criticism is that schwarma is actually more important than Torah, and why can't chareidim understand that, and then comes along Ephraim and shifts the criticism to "The army has no "schwarma is better than Torah" policy." But nobody said that's the army's policy, Hartman was saying that's the ideology of non-chareidi society. He may be exaggerating a bit, and I wouldn't have necessarily said it that way, but his point is solid.
Israel is not a materialistic country.
Depends on your perspective. From a certain perspective, it's very materialistic.
You wouldn’t recognize Torah if it came upon you and bit you on your butt…
Where does it say I'm banned? What are you talking about?
"...he made suret to recognize the great benefit that the Chareidi community provides to the country by keeping the Torah ideals alive which is more important than being a tech founder or being a brave young soldier".
"...a brave young soldier".doesn't contradict keeping Torah ideals alive. In fact we are in a war where protecting lives is supreme in living a Torah life. We do it to protect the Torah by fulfilling a basic obligation of gemilat chasadim , Lo tamod al dom reacha. Milchemet mitzvah,l to save the lives of our fellow Jews including our "Learners". To deny saving lives as part of the Torah is to reject the Torah. Just as the "banker has a plart of the reward for learning Torah by his high tech etc..
"You might discover there's more to life than schwarma, being a tech founder, or serving in 8200" lectures the guy working in VC in New York
I previously tore this guy apart, especially over that line, but now I pity him more than anything.
Schwarma is a rather simple and cheap fast food. Not the kind of food favored by those VCs who insist on the premium steakhouses.
The dissonant juxtaposition of cheap fast food with a high tech executive betrays how off base and tone deaf his comment is. I know no one who fits the description of whom he's criticizing.
And it's all nonsense. Because the typical criticism of life in Israel, was always how poor the country is and how the Teaneck/Rockland/Brooklyn high life is out of reach here. But mention the high tech miracle and then the criticism shifts to "there's more to life than money". If one forgets to recall the fish and melons of Egypt, they can always complain about the bumper fruit harvest of Israel.
Cheap, but increasingly expensive for many Israelis. This man clearly has a, shall we say, distorted view of Israel.
So which criticism meets with your approval?
a) You miss the fish and melons of Egypt
b) You fear the material achievements of Israel
Indeed, past complaints of others in the past do not negate the legitimacy of present complaints. Both complaints remain independently illegitimate and evoke the מתלוננים and מרגלים.
Maybe it was over the top of me to conflate his whining with other whiners. Maybe he's just offering an anti-thesis (too much גשמיות in Israel) to the thesis (Israel is poor), the צד השוה is is just complaining.
Compare:
Thesis: The draft of Charedim is wrong because the army doesn't need them; given advances of a high-tech army there is sufficient manpower.
Anti-thesis: It's not the fault of Charedim that the army over-relied on high-tech advances instead of increasing manpower. The Charedim should not be responsible to solve the army's self-created problem.
Ephraim, brilliant insight!
I thought that's exactly his point...
So the New York banker who works extreme hours and has little time to learn Torah himself wants to vicariously attach himself to those who claim they learn 24/7 even during a national emergency when they are needed elsewhere (except during Bein Hazmanim which is a Halacha L'Moshe Misinai) in order to save his own soul because he learned about bitul Torah when he was in yeshiva and feels somewhat guilty about the life he is living. As a banker, perhaps he should do the sums and realize that even if he becomes CEO of the bank, he won't have enough money to fund "a charedi-governed country."
When challenged, he responded that charedim would make the best soldiers and best venture capitalists if they were only given the chance. He clearly hasn't thought this through very well. He went to some parlor meeting, got all pumped up, and vented without thinking.
They already collected $83 Million from these people!
A fool and his money are soon parted….Ben Franklin
Are you saying the Israeli taxpayers were fools all these years?
Well, here's what the head of the OU- the OU!- had to say:
"There is a genuine internal crisis in Israel over finding the way forward on the haredi enlistment issue. This war has taken a very heavy toll of death, injury, and profound stress on the soldiers and reservists of Tzahal and their families. Haredim have legitimate fears about the impact of enlistment on their cherished way of life. Neither side may cavalierly dismiss the concerns of the other. Many – though certainly not all – of the leaders and decision makers on both sides, including Gedolei Yisrael and army leaders, are working diligently to find ways to include haredim in the material efforts for Israel’s defense in a manner that respects and preserves their haredi way of life and that does not force enlistment of those who are Toraso Umnaso, full-time yeshiva students. Both sides understand that this issue can no longer be kicked down the road and that they must acknowledge the problems and work together quietly and productively to address them."
I'm sorry, that's sickening. A bit of the "both sides," a healthy dollop of fantasy, and some worse elements.
(He makes two other points that I also am troubled by in various ways, but they're not the topic here: https://www.ou.org/this-erev-shabbos-am-yisraels-response-to-crisis/ )
Great message from the OU. I'm glad even a modern orthodox organization can see how important the Torah study is, especially in our trying times.
R. Hauer can always be counted on for words of wisdom, and while he heads the OU he is certainly not Modern Orthodox.
What a beautiful, inspiring message, Rabbi Nachum! We need the protection of Torah more than ever, and I'm glad that we can agree on that despite our divisions. That's what achdus is all about.
"Neither side may cavalierly dismiss the concerns of the other. "
Not accurate. The Charedi side has dismissed Charedi concerns. They've had such concerns for years, and they, for the most part have not sought out solutions. Instead they've put all their eggs in one basket: complete avoidance of the concern by avoiding the draft- even for the great many of men who are not learning full time and in no way meet the criteria for being שבט לוי.
" who are Toraso Umnaso, full-time yeshiva students."
What about non-full-time Yeshiva students? And this isn't an accurate definition of תורתו אומנותו!
" "אם יש לו מעט אומנות או מעט משא ומתן להתפרנס בו כדי חייו ולא להתעשר, ובכל שעה שהוא פנוי מעסקיו חוזר על דברי תורה ולומד תדיר, נקרא תורתו אומנותו".
A poor laborer who only has time on שבת to learn, when not sleeping from exhaustion meets the definition of תורתו אומנותו.
This guy sounds like a Kool-Aid drinking fool to me . . . he almost sounds like a caricature, down to his silly spelling of "oilam".
Oy, that is a whole lotta "yeshivish" shtupped into one LinkedIn (or whatever) post... Gevalt!
This article and attitude is very not nuanced (what's a better word for that?). The reason they are called haters of torah is more systemic than active. If you appreciate the chareidi values, it's not quite so hard to understand why they wouldn't join the army. It's not a place for a young Jewish adult, and all those who say that "they should stop being such delicate flowers" or whatever, clearly don't appreciate that the issues at hands aren't trivial to a chareidi. Mainly taiva and the issurei kares which conflict any young raging-hormone male will be confounded in a secular environment. Just because in the other community they are more "open" and are less careful in these areas and have been desensitized, that doesn't make the chareidi youth less at risk.
This is besides the is that it is the klal yisroel who follows the torah to this high standard, despite the many flaws we have, that Hashem allows us to keep going. Again, is your don't believe that, fine, but that will lead to a systemic hate for a person with a different value system because you *know* that your way is right prior and as such, absent these high values, all you see is childishness and selfishness.
I think we have a lot to learn from the other side which is why I frequent this blog - the focus on torah can diminish the proper respect for other very important values - but we have a lot to offer as well when it comes to caring about Hashem's laws, a truly noble value indeed, from a basic religious perspective. They ignore that which creates this systemic - yes - hate.
Reb Dave, I notice that you refer to "the chareidi values", much like "Evil Sorcerer of Dvinsk" made reference y'day to "chareidi ideology".
Shouldn't "chareidi values" and "ideology" be TORAH values and ideology?
If the whole chareidi "edifice" is just a social construct with its own unique sociocultural (rather than halachic) values and ideology, how then can it be justified, when fanatical adherence to that construct may, in fact, contravene many important mitzvos?
I would call it "torah values" but the people I'm speaking to or about on this blog aren't on the same page. I think it would be insulting and perhaps arrogant to pretend like I'm the only keeper of torah with my values. So I call it "chareidi values."
I also understand will that the chareidi values need help from the other side to be perfected. A lot of important things are ignored amongst the chareidi masses at the expense of instilling the values of the importance of torah. I wish we'd all come together and learn from each other. For this nuance as well I don't want to paint a brush and pretend that chareidim are the perfect "torah Jews" and that the others are not, even though I think the chareidim have the core in place
The real reason is not exactly kashrus and women, those are just symptoms of the real problem that the army is a כור היתוך לישראלית, which would spell the end of the Torah community if most of its young men went there. I've always said if you want chareidim to join the army, it needs to be separate non-Zionist army, controlled by chareidi rabbis and without even the Zionist flag. A separate chareidi militia. You wouldn't get the learners, but you would get most of the non-learners for sure. You would get most chassidim. That's the holy grail solution.
How exactly would that work?
And when they need air support, would they call a non-Zionist airforce?
Who would be the commander-in-chief, a Chareidi rabbi (who of course would have years of military experience)
How can two allied armies fight alongside each other with common goals? Is that your question? And why do you assume that the chareidi militia needs its own airforce? Why can't it be allied with the Israeli airforce?
Of course chareidi rabbis would need to be the ones ultimately in charge of the chareidi army. It would need to develop its own military leaders through training and experience.
Since nobody has any real objections to my idea, I'll assume the only reason it hasn't been tried is because nobody has thought of it yet. (ESD smugly pats himself on the back.)
Or maybe it's so obviously ridiculous we aren't bothering.
If it's so obviously ridiculous, you ought to be able to think of at least one compelling objection. But you can't.
How would your "holy grail solution" possibly be coherently implemented? Who would the rabbis answer to? Would they be answering directly to the Defense Minister, or to a general?
The details would have to be ironed out. That doesn't seem like an insurmountable obstacle.
Possibly true. I personally don't agree but I think a lot of chareidim will feel that way
I don’t think the issue at this point is individuals. It’s the politics. By now, the Charedi leaders had plenty of time to make a position known that would be consistent with their beliefs while acknowledging and respecting the rest of society’s legitimate needs. If the army wouldn’t accept it, fine. But they took an approach of vilifying the whole country and standing on their maximalist demands and that’s how they’re approaching this, too. Now, however upsetting this has been, during war time, it’s so much worse. All it would take would be some recognition that they are part of the country and have to find a way to act like it.
I don't think we disagree
"It's not a place for a young Jewish adult"
Why don't you go explain that to Hamas. I'm sure they'll be very understanding.
That's nothing but an emotional talking point
This isn't summer camp.
Over 50,000 Israelis are still displaced from their homes. Missiles from the north are killing and injuring civilians daily. Much of Hamas still remains. Soldiers in "Sadir" units have been fighting non-stop for months. Miluim soldiers are being called back for their 2nd or 3rd "round".
Of course the army should try (and does try) to accommodate Hareidi requirements...but this is a war. No one is there for their comfort or enjoyment
I agree with a lot of that. It's not summer camp. It's not a joke. And there is a really bad attitude permeating through my society that I really despise and condemn.
But your last line "comfort and enjoyments" says it all. You don't appreciate what it means to be nichshal in one issur even derabanan.
"You don't appreciate what it means to be nichshal in one issur even derabanan. "
You fail to acknowledge that there are practical halachic distinctions between super חומרות and מעיקר הדין requirements.
Some do. I don't.
You guys have the same problem the other way.
"Of course the army should try (and does try) to accommodate Hareidi requirements...but this is a war. No one is there for their comfort or enjoyment"
https://www.knesset.tv/committees/foreign-affairs-and-defense-committee/video/69176
I recommend watching this hearing. (or at least the last half hour or so.) It's quite obvious that there is more going on than a simple need for manpower. Meirav Michaeli wants to ensure that women's rights aren't harmed, the guy from Yisrael chofshi wants to make clear that the Charedim need to comply because the state says so, and the actual charedi military guy is left to point out the obvious: There are a whole bunch of agendas at play here; shoring up manpower clearly isn't at the top of the list.
The head of mechinat eli:
https://www.kipa.co.il/%D7%97%D7%93%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/1180509-0/
לדבריו, "כשתיבנה תורת הכלל בשלמות זה יהיה סיפור אחר. אנחנו, הציבור הדתי-לאומי, צריכים להוות באמת דוגמא שאפשר לחבר את העולמות בלי דתל"שים בעשרות אחוזים. אם רבים מהבנים והבנות לא מדקדקים קלה כבחמורה בגלל ההשתלבות, אז בגלל הרצון לבנות את תורת הכלל הם מפסידים בתורת הפרט. תאר לעצמך שכולם היו ציונים דתיים, מה היה נשאר מהתורה?
That's one of the most bizarre things you could have written. Think about it a second.
Please explain. I think that if they aren't willing to accommodate chareidim, it goes to show how much they truly need chareidim (not that much), and that their true agenda isn't because of those needs to begin with. If this is something that is legitimately important to a chareidi from as religious perspective, they should try to accommodate and not make a second pair of enemies. Lowers instead put aside our differences, work together and fight our common enemy.
The army is not a place for any young adult. Why are their concerns so much more special than everyone else's?
They're not. they just care more about these things. Anyone is entitled to care and make demands that the army accommodate their religious needs (which is what chareidim should do)
To an extent. But it's irrelevant because they don't make these demands, they just whine like you about how the army is a toxic place as an excuse to not enlist like everyone else.
Which is where I agree with you that they should come to the table and discuss their demands. Incidentally, I think the reason they don't is because it became political and the other side isn't willing to listen either.
No, the other side is very much willing to listen. I don't think you are familiar with the situation.
I'm not very familiar but the people I talk to that are very very familiar, or that I hear from on this blog, our the news that I hear (which may be biased) it seems like they are pretty bad at accommodating even small religious requests
Just look at the comments on yesterday's post. The other side is definitely not willing to listen to anything at all, just responding sarcastically, for example:
Natan Slifkin
Jul 10
Author
Yep, definitely more important to avoid army than to chas v'shalom have to train to carry an injured person.
Dave shulman is correct.
Maybe raise them to be real men and the army won’t be such a challenge. Physically or spiritually.
From a torah perspective the whole mitzva of yefat toar addresses the issue telling us that even though we know that war is a Nissayon for the yetzer, we still have to go to war when it is a mitzvah. but from a practical approach, the army will , wants and knows that it must accommodate the needs of all frum Jews whether Charedi or Dati Leumi or stam shomrei torah. if these would all enlist and the leaders supported them, there is enough political clout to turn the army halachik lemahedrin. your arguments are fallacious and i would challenge any Talmid Chacham to show us in a teshuvah, based on legitimate sources that can support the Chareidi approach. this is really a shaming of the torah and a great chilul hashem as Rambam makes it clear in Hilchot Talmud torah about those who learn relying on others
Natan, he took that post down and so you might consider blacking out his name so he has the freedom not to be stained by a momentary single post. I think it's gracious to allow people to be forgotten if they've publicly stood down from their positions and this memorializes Mr. H in a way that doesn't allow this.
I happen to be a good friend of his, and while I detest this absolutely silly position, I do not reduce is generally wonderful character to one incident of verbal spit up.
Does he stand by the accusations that he wrote or did he issue an apology/ retraction?
It's a fair question, I don't know 🤷
If someone makes a statement on social media, s/he has every right to delete. We have all “typed before thinking” at some point or another.
But as an informational point, the words themselves stand (even if the individual has taken the post down) as a direct example of the twisted logic in the community.
(I personally believe that if he took the post down, and especially if he no longer holds such views, his name and face should be blocked out, but his twisted words should remain as testimony to the intellectual cancer that has infected much of the Chareidi community.)
Wow. Is that how you learned to speak in Yeshiva?
I suggest you study a bit of Mussar as a reminder of how to conduct yourself in a modest, mentchlach way.
No one takes someone who spouts such ridiculous bile seriously. You do not know me. You should be ashamed of yourself.
But if it's a private position at this point, I'm not sure that the public retraction standard is the right one, though I hear both sides.
I also hear both sides. But my feeling is that just as it's important to know that everything is recorded in Shamayim unless you do teshuvah, it's also important to know that things are recorded down here.
Even—or perhaps, especially—those who “spout off” w/o thinking and then regret it (after being taken to task) need to learn sooner or later that “the internet is forever”.
The chillul hashem happening now makes the chillul hashem that happened when Natan's books were banned look like child's play.
This guy Mordechai Hartman, just because he has a full time job at a bank does not make him open minded. He can still argue that the Medina wants to DISTROY Torah even though factually there is more learning in Israel then any other time in our history. Fanaticism and close-mindedness cut across all all sectors. It is a free country to think how you want.
Also, it is possible, as he brings in the Gidolim that came collecting, it might be that other put him up to it as a poster boy , to show look a successful beardless Jew - agrees with them. Why take down the post if you really believe it?
" the Medina "
Is the term "מדינה" still a thing?
If one has to look it up, it's already archaic. I meant its use by people in normal everyday conversation.
So 1970s.
When a situation turns much worse than anyone would have expected - and I say this acknowledging everything written here (more or less) - one has to wonder how this all could have happened. The charedim of the earlier generations of the state were (more or less) people of integrity and midos and dedication to emes. Sure, there was a yawning gap between them and the modern state (and yes even the dati leumi) but their opposition to that world was deeply principled, and was practiced in a more or less appropriate way. I wonder if the cause of the current mess was their decision to get into politics. Their position was openly that they denied the legitimacy of the state outright and got involved solely to serve their own interests, which they had a right to do like any other consituency. Not all elements of the charedim agreed with this and stay out of politics to this day. But this cynicsm, I suspect, led to increasing disdain and disrespect for the rest of the country - whose politics also became overrun with cynical self-interest - to the point that they forgot there were real people on the other end of things. It became ok to use the state for their own needs and ignore not just the evil medina, which they justified as the correct belief, but the real people who live there, whose existence they pretty much deny, which absolutely cannot be justified. Part of the blame is Israeli politics, which really has lost whatever idealism it once had. This has also now destroyed the US. I don’t know how this can be fixed - on either side of the ocean.
The "gedolim" have been raising money, apparently very successfully in the Five Towns (very affluent orthodox neighborhoods in suburban NY). You may be interested in the coverage in the local newsletter. Of course, there is no hint that the money would be going to support Charedim to avoid the draft and shirk their responsibilities to society: https://5townscentral.com/2024/06/27/gedolim-visiting-us-raises-80-million-to-support-yeshivos-in-eretz-yisrael/
Great news
So much for year one.
What about next year?
What about the looming tuition crisis in the US?
Looming? I run tuition for a larger day school. Looming was 40 years ago. Inflation and explosive housing and food prices are now. And the gvirim are sending more money to EY than to local schools.
Are you experiences the exception?
Or is the following story sensationalizing?
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/2285023/major-crisis-school-shuts-down-others-raise-tuition-as-financial-woes-slam-the-chinuch-system.html
"A financial crisis is rocking the chinuch system... money woes are not isolated to one particular... area, with mosdos chinuch spread throughout the U.S. suffering from far fewer big donors and a growing number of parents who are unable to pay full tuition."
Someone in the know - told me they never raised the amount they claim. It is a "first" that they had to admit, that so many of the "greatest" the "shpitz" came knocking at doors, and they did not reach their goals. How is that possible??
He said the handlers that took the Gidolim to these people, this amount was what they requesting, or demanded, or felt they could afford , The Giverim just looked at them saying we will try, or we will do our best . They were specifically not looking to push them for a full commitments during the visit. That is why so many agreed to meet them .
Lets see how much of that $$ actually shows up.
If you go to their website, you will see loads of "charity groups" looking to raise money in a community and see a goal of 100,000 (that a group set) and so far they raised $1,758 of that amount. The 100, 000 is wishful thinking. All of them are just like this.
Maybe the person who told me what transpired is correct - it is just a smoke screen.
I personally hope they raise the $107 million , as now the poor hard working Israeli is "off the hook" .The kolelim get their support form charity giving,, That is the way it should be, not FORCING other to separate from their hard earned money.
Straight out of middle school.
Truth hurts - but it shouldn't! Calm down it is not the end of these collections.
they all know.
Somebody who is a yored should keep his mouth shut!
“Yeshivas that are under medinah occupation”. That may be the most offensive, insensitive and thoughtless term I have ever read in my life.
This is a very powerful post in it's blunt trueness.
The pain of those sacrificing and losing family members is searing, and the Charedi position is truly unforgivable.
רשע מה הוא אומר, מה העבודה הזאת לכם, לכם ולא לו, ולפי שהוציא את עצמו מן הכלל כפר בעיקר, ואף אתה הקהה את שיניו ואמור לו בעבור זה עשה ה' לי בצאתי ממצרים לי ולא לו, אילו היה שם לא היה נגאל . Sorry to say this but it seems that the so called Olam Hatorah has gone off the derech, and as such it is high time we disconnect from it. B"H the true Olam Hatorah V'Hamitzvot has established a deep line of Talmedai Chachmim and we no longer have to feel ashamed or second best.
"Evil Sorcerer," I think I will institute a policy that people who insult me or my readers can only do so if they submit their comment under their real name.
The policy should be that name calling or insulting is simply not allowed, IMO.
Grow up. This name calling stuff is tedious for the rest of us. Is that the level of discourse at your yeshiva?
That's' what the NYT is telling Biden now, anyway.
No. The NYT has no problem with a well handled undead president. The pills, the IVs, the ECMOs and (just to be sure) continuous chiropractic adjustments are all okay. As long as he gets re-elected.
But if the polls are down, even if Biden would suddenly recover and become spry, alert and virile- it's still time to invoke the 25th.
Heh. Biden reminds me of the robots in the Disney Hall of Presidents.