I am really impressed with this letter of Reb Dov's. You see the לשון חכמים מרפא, how he is careful to make his point without adding to it.
Hamas is רשעי אומות העולם, they are evil.
However, the אנשי השלטון are not evil, their plans are מזימות רשע, with a segol under the ר and a pasach under the ש.
Sadly, the uninformed have power and are liable to close down the Yeshivos as we know them. They are so ignorant, mostly, that they do not realize the dangers of these plans. But they must be thwarted anyway.
I don't understand. If there was a burden placed by the government unfairly on the Charedim, like extra taxes, of course they would be protesting that injustice. So, fairness is certainly a value. Why is it evil when other people demand fairness from Charedim?
If it was, the world could not exist. Should we put everyone in equal chance of death in battle, regardless of capability, in the name of some value called 'fairness'?
Fairness is a value, but not the most important one. שלא תשתכח תורה מישראל is more important. Yeshivos are more important.
First of all, I think it's important to be very careful when making that argument. When a situation is unfair, and the person benefitting from that disparity is trying to explain why fairness isn't an important enough value, that person may be too biased to be making an honest argument.
I think fairness is more important than you think. Treating others like you want to be treated is one of the most fundamental principles of the Torah. And no one wants to be treated unfairly. No one wants to put their lives at risk for those who are unwilling to make similar sacrifices for them.
In terms of fairness vs. ensuring Torah isn't lost... Going to the army won't cause Torah to be lost as we see from hesder yeshivos. I think that's a gross exaggeration used to rationalize a very difficult position.
Additionally, once we acknowledge that treating others the way we want to be treated is a fundamental value... Is Torah that causes us to abandon that value really Torah? Derech Eretz kadma leTorah and without that prerequisite, the very Torah we are trying to save becomes fundamentally flawed.
What does fairness have to do with 'treating others like you want to be treated'?
If a guest comes to my house, I serve them the food they want, not the food I want. 'Nobody wants to be treated unfairly' is an untrue argument. First among my requests is not 'fairness' but as I wish to be treated.
And you may not understand why Torah will be lost if the opportunity isn't granted to people to spend their formative years learning solely. But your lack of understanding does not change anything at all.
Btw, anyone who wants to spend his formative years learning instead of joining the army, may do so. It is perfectly fair.
Fairness is not a value nor possible on an individual level, even within a family. Not all my kids are doing the same number of days of Miluim, and that's fine.
But fairness *is* a value on a community level. A single community cannot decide that they are exempt from a communal responsibility, placing a greater and almost unbearable burden on everyone else.
It's really a beautiful letter, שפתים ישק. But I don't think there is any danger of the seculars shutting down yeshivos. To the contrary, it is pathetic that they are focusing so much of their energy on shutting down yeshivos, a battle they can never win- all in the middle of a war against Hamas, and in a war for for global public opinion, which they are losing badly. It makes one feel sorry for them- how deluded can they be? We should daven that the seculars should emerge from their stupor and see the light of the Torah. And I think that is included in Rav Dov's letter also, ויזכנו לקבל את התורה באהבה ובשמחה- this is going on the seculars as well!
The money is taken (by implied threat of violence) from the Israeli taxpayer. It is not the automatic right of the yeshivot, or the charedim, to get that money. The charedim made a decision at some point that their institutions and society would survive thanks to the generosity, or freyer-dom, of the Israeli government and citizen. Good: Now they can live with that decision.
He wasn't talking about money. Yeshivos can survive without money from the seculars. He is talking about people who want to shut down the chareidi yeshiva system- היה לא תהיה
I don't think they want to shut down the Charedi yeshiva system either. They want Charedim to serve in the army with their Dati LeUmi and secular brothers to defend against a common genocidal enemy.
A demand to draft yeshiva bochurim for years is a demand to shut down the chareidi yeshiva system, which is all about uninterrupted learning. It would be like demanding 5 hours of college in the middle of the yeshiva day.
That is certainly part of the Charedi system, but not the only part. I don't think obligating all people who benefit from the protection of the army to also do their share in protecting Klal Yisroel, would tank the Charedi system. It may need to be modified to account for this new factor, but it's not all or nothing. We can adapt to real world situations and obligations and still survive and thrive.
Again, the “switching-around-the-words-in-my-comments” thing is getting old…
But, as it happens, the answer to this particular question couldn’t be more simple: “rationalists” (as you call them) act the way we do b/c we believe there is a fundamental value of shared achrayus in Jewish society, and there is ample evidence at every level of our shared tradition (from Tana”ch, through the Talmud, through the rishonim, etc, etc) to support our belief.
I want to add that we already saw the tremendous empathy that Rav Dov had for our secular brothers and sisters in the conversation he had with the poor, afflicted soldier. https://matzav.com/watch-rav-landau-to-idf-officer-our-protection-derives-solely-from-torah/ He had such patience and repeatedly emphasized his concern for the plight of the captives. We can learn from our Gedolim how to relate to our brothers and sisters who have not yet seen the light of the Torah.
Empathy (lip service) is not enough. And in the absence of meaningful action, performative empathy is a bizayon: "oy, I have such empathy that your sons are dying on behalf of all of us..."
If you don't find empathy meaningful, then you are not a human being. You are a monster. I sincerely hope that most other seculars have at least a semblance of humanity, even if they have no great love for the Torah.
The point is, empathy might be nice, but it costs nothing. If you want to impress me, don’t tell me how empathetic chareidim are, tell me what they are sacrificing on behalf of k’lal yisrael.
Only somebody who has no human feelings whatsoever would put all human-feelings, like empathy, sympathy, love, on a cost-benefit basis. If you can't value empathy that doesn't pass your arbitrary cost-benefit test, then you are probably a psychopath.
Ironically, you cannot free yourself of that charge, as you weren't breathing nitrogen when you typed that. Neither was Nasrallah when he shot the rockets yesterday. You are all connected.
For an (anonymous) troll who's ostensibly such a believer in the value of Torah study, you spend quite a lot of time in the comments on this blog. If you think this a more worthy use of your time then shteiging in bais midrash, I'd like to understand why you don't think picking up a gun in defense of your brethren is an equally worthy use of such time.
Maybe let's start by agreeing to the simple proposition that chareidim who claim an exemption who spend their time commenting on blogs and engaged in similar trivialities should join the army.
And, for the record, you're a coward, hiding behind a fake identity and unwilling to actually take a position under your own name, but I suppose it's no surprise, given the general cowardly, sinful, and nauseating conduct of the Israeli charedim that you defend.
You may have saved a life with the Torah protection from that extra "20 minutes" per week, so I venture that you're lacking emunah in your own supposed beliefs. Real soldiers don't stop in middle of battle to comment on blogs.
You say that “the uninformed have power and are liable to close down the Yeshivos as we know them.” What makes you believe this? Is the government actually threatening their closure? The only question that I heard raised relates to government funding, and yeshivos can certainly operate without government funding, as they do everywhere else in the world.
It doesn't say רשעי אומות העולם. It says רשעת אומות העולם. It's protesting the evil of the nations and the evil of the government. It certainly looks like the two are comparable.
Rav Landau has forfeited his claim to be the Gadol Hador. A true Gadol would seek to foster dialogue and understanding among Jews. Instead he seeks to instigate and promote sinat chinam. The pronouncements of the "Charedi Gedolim" have been destructive and pathetic. We need the Charedi masses to speak out and take action, even against the advice of their Gedolim.
The whole point of a Gadol is that someone who dedicates his life to Torah learns things about the world that the layman doesn't necessarily understand, and leads according to that knowledge.
Specifically, they see and connect to Hashem, Master of the universe, in ways that most of us can only dream of. Learning many hours straight with the proper yiraas Shamayim, and compounding that by years and years of such inhumane devotion to Hashem and His word opens up literal worlds of understanding about how this world really works.
The average charedi understands this model, and these Gedolim are his role models in life, and appreciates their leadership.
That being said, we don't follow them blindly, rather we have our own Rabbeim who lead us in the proper direction. I doubt my rabbeim would be exactly on the same page as Reb Dov in a lot of these details, and wouldn't necessarily defer to him in every situation. But that doesn't take away from his chashivus or greatness, and these posts and comments are the worse Lashon Hara possible as they reduce the reality of what's really important in this world which is unequivically: Avodas Hashem. As per the oft quoted Rabbeinu Yonah in Shaarei Teshuva 3:146(?), amongst dozens of other obvious statements about what Judaism is really about.
The proper forum for all these (important, yes important) grievances is not really supposed to be on social media, but with personal relationships with a truly great Rebbi who is like a Malach in your eyes (which is a personal feeling- everyone needs their own personal Rebbi). But social media has value to make change in larger waves. I just wished people like Natan would do this with the proper respect because the conservative ideology necessary to charediism needs outspoken people like him to fix the problems. But yet again, the posts and comments are those of an outsider who appreciates not what charedim stand for to begin with; hence all points made, despite their importance are unfortunately obsolete. I imagine if I sat down with anyone on the opposing side, we would see eye to eye on so many of the raging issues. But instead we're just fighting. It's just sad really.
".... opens up literal worlds of understanding about how this world really works." Yeah, I also used to believe that. Then I started looking at what the evidence actually shows (and what rabbinic literature itself actually claims).
I think this would be a great discussion to have. It would get down to the root of and sort out a lot of our disagreements.
My only question to you is, and I'm genuinely curious to hear the other side: what evidence and literature have you examined? Because my myriads of sources are pretty clear.
(From my POV I'd suggest that those who don't share the personal experience of kedusha and yiraah which comes from being heavily involved in עיון התורה and עבודת המוסר (and this takes hours upon hours ברציפות and years and years of detaching one's self from the all encompassing תאוות גוף and connecting with the other worldly הקב"ה), the sources are, by their very nature, hard to understand as the Rambam points out in the hakdama to his Moreh. But nonetheless they are actually quite clear. But I understand that my POV can be wrong.)
Tell me, let's consider the Gerrer Rebbe, whom many if not all of his chassidim consider him to be the epitome of da'as torah and all that goes with it.
Can you, "hand on heart" say, he is the epitome of 'personal experience of kedusha and yiraah which comes from being heavily involved in עיון התורה and עבודת המוסר (and this takes hours upon hours ברציפות and years and years of detaching one's self from the all encompassing תאוות גוף and connecting with the other worldly הקב"ה)". Even with his Rolls Royce and real estate dealings?
What about the Squarer Rebbe who eats with solid silver cutlery?
The number of people around to day that meet that definition is, zero give or take a few? So practically speaking, its all non-applicable, anyway.
The Rambam who says you need knowledge of the natural sciences? And that an old person should not be on the Sanhedrin? And who is against magic and mysticism? That's the authority you're quoting to defend the contemporary charedi idea of Daas Torah?
yes. the rambam's ultimate goal of removing one's self from body and entering the world of the neshama is very much in line with the chareidi goal. i'm not sure there is a single other group on the planet that is as close to the rambam's version of judaism as charedim try to be. there are plenty of disagreements on plenty of (even significant) details, but as far as what we are trying to get to with out torah and yiraah, sure, the rambam would be on the same page for much of that.
that being said, the issues in the chareidi world are numerous and there are many important things that need to change, in which we'd probably agree and a large percentage of items. but the core of chareidi ideology, that it's literally all about getting closer to Hashem (which is most effective through being immersed in His torah), and not just following the commandments and being good people, but living a life where His presence can at least somewhat be felt (think of your best shmoneh esrei), that was the rambam's strongest core, and that is the chareidi's strongest core.
i'm not going to pretend that there are plenty of chareidim who don't even come close to fitting this bill, and that non-chareidim don't have people of this nature. and i think if we'd all come together sharing all our maalos, we'd all go a long way. but people like you don't feel that feeling close to Hashem is the strongest value. if you did, you'd probably not have such a hard time understanding why we need a yeshiva system of "kulo torah". not because everyone there is going to live their max, but (a) a system which allows those who try to live to the max, which absolutely is a hundred times harder in an exposed enviroment, and (b) it allow our young ideologues to pursue and appreciate what such a life means so that if they should ever enter the outside world (as many should eventually), they will be equipped with the proper chashivus for every moment of torah and avoda. these messages are very hard to soak in with other messages being floated around.
and again, this does not mean that the system should stay as is (unless for political reasons, give a bit and they'll take too much). there are too many kollelim where the guys aren't learning as they should and especially when there is a war like this, things probably should change. but in context of appreciating what we're about.
one last remark, many argue that we are not about getting close to Hashem; we are just about the old academics of torah learning, and others would even say that we are wasting tie with piilpul (see test's comments about these things). and i agree that there is even a large percentage who take these paths. but at the top, that isn't the message. and anyone in the yeshivos who is serious about their growth knows this, and at least in america, this approach is the standard; you can ask anyone here.
I can assure, yet again (assuming that they say what you claim they say), that there is probably nobody alive today who meets the standard set out in those rishonim and acharonim. It's all meant theoretically, not practically.
"The whole point of a Gadol is that someone who dedicates his life to Torah learns things about the world that the layman doesn't necessarily understand, and leads according to that knowledge."
"... opens up literal worlds of understanding about how this world really works..."
Until it doesn't, and then its 'a time of hester ponim', or 'the unfathomable ways of Hashem', 'tzadik v'ra lo' and suchlike......
The contradiction between 'its the unfathomable ways of Hashem' and 'opens up literal worlds of understanding about how this world really works..." should be self-evident to any thinker!
is that supposed to be a "gotcha"? i'm not here for games.
what avraham did is not at all inconsistent with that pasuk, or with the rambam's idea that the ultimate goal of olam hazeh is dveikus with Hashem. where are you trying to say, that the rambam doesn't say what I say he says? i mean, its an open book, you can read it. and you can then refute him from the gemara with avraham if you feel so strongly about this... לא עלי תלונותיכם
Why is closing Yeshivos a "balabatish" issue? Imho, I would think the yardstick of how important the Yeshivos are is something those who appreciate the proper worth of Torah are to know.
yah but maybe they don't fully appreciate the sakana and/or needs of the army and so on.
personally, i agree with you, because i think the need of the chareidi yeshiva system of כולו תורה will be destroyed slowly if we give in- we give them a finger they take a hand- but I strongly hear @just curious's point...
It's odd, because just the other day the lawyer representing the charedi view told the court that charedim are entitled to get food from the government just as terrorists in jail get food from the government. The fact that he made an equivalence between charedim and terrorists did not go unnoticed in the press.
(Yes, I know, he was making a kal v'chomer. Of course, if you're going to make a kal v'chomer like that you can also have pointed out to you that non-charedim who aren't in jail don't get food from the government.)
I wouldn't say that charedim want to see Israel destroyed. But the fact remains that the existence of Israel poses a very serious theological challenge to them, one which would not exist if Israel weren't there. Which can make one wonder what subconscious influence that may have on them.
(It should be pointed out that the existence of the State of Israel poses theological challenges, or similar challenges, to Christians, to Muslims, to secular types, and to various stripes of secular Jews both in and, especially, outside of Israel. So the charedim have a lot of company.)
" just the other day the lawyer representing the charedi view told the court that charedim are entitled to get food from the government just as terrorists in jail get food from the government. The fact that he made an equivalence between charedim and terrorists did not go unnoticed in the press.... Yes, I know, he was making a kal v'chomer."
Incorrect. Withholding such food from imprisoned terrorists would be against international "law" and would thus be a violation of the שלש שבועות - שלא ימרדו באומות. Furthermore, violating the oath is ייהרג ואל יעבור. The same can't be said for withholding food from able body Yeshiva students. The קל וחומר would thus be in the other direction.
Yes, the irony has been remarked upon that charedim today owe their very existence to two rather leftist ideas, namely multiculturalism (it's OK if you decided to dress in a black hat and long peyot, we're all different) and the welfare state.
In no other country in which chareidim reside are they (and all their coreligionists) under ongoing existential threat, necessitating compulsory military service to provide for the common defense.
Also, in no other country in the world (even in the welfare states of Europe) do chareidim live like their Israeli counterparts. In fact, I have frequently heard a sharp distinction drawn btwn native Israeli chareidim and “Anglo-chareidim” (even those who have made aliyah).
I didn't seriously think you would ban or delete the comment but I was surprised that you didn't at least flag the comment with a warning like you have done in the past when the same commentor made similar hateful statements. His comment was hateful and borders on incitement. I was going to say that it is just one step short of calling charedim rodfim (which IS incitement, as Yigal Amir has shown), but I see he beat me to it and actually DID call charedim rodfim in the comments below. You didn't delete that either so I guess you changed your policy to allow all comments including calls for genocide - as long as charedim are the target.
Calling something evil is not anywhere close to the same thing. It is not hate speech and is not anywhere close to incitement. And your comment about equating two things by putting them in the same sentence is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard - sorry.
How would you feel its the opposite? If people would protest "the evil of the Hamas massacre and the evil of not serving in the army with the rest of Klal Yisroel". You wouldn't find that sentence incredibly inappropriate?
No I don't find it inappropriate and it is what I would expect. I would even expect an unhinged lunatic to suggest that all charedim are rodfim worse than Hamas, implying that they should all be killed. What I wouldn't expect is for such a comment to go almost unnoticed. NS didn't even flag it and the only pushback was "Perhaps with that in mind, the intensely hateful rhetoric sometimes expressed here can be toned down a bit." (Ya think?) and "I don't know if Avi Rosenthal really meant that they are literally rodfim in the sense that we should be killing them though." Well no, you wouldn't want to spend the rest of your life in jail. Just hate them more than Hamas but don't actually commit mass murder...
I don't find that sentence inappropriate at all. It would be the view of somebody who doesn't want to call chareidim evil, but finds their resistance to service evil. Much less inappropriate than thousands of stuff on this blog, and making the main focus of the war your chareidi enemies.
You ascribe an infallibility to Gedolim that is wholly undeserved. Charedi community members need to see past the self serving smokescreen of their "leadership" and assert Torah values of kol Yisrael areivim zeh bazeh. Remember Moshe Rabbeinu's admonition to the two tribes who wished to settle in Ever Hayarden. Take responsibility for ALL your brothers.
Hamas wants to destroy Israel but can’t make it happen, whereas the Haredim do not want to destroy Israel but could enable it to happen.
Powerful line. I wonder what it would take for a change in awareness amongst Haredi leaders to see that nobody is trying to destroy Torah, but that there is an existential threat
The fundamental problem is, no one is actually “trying to destroy Torah” and chareidi leaders know it.
If they were honest, they would admit that their recalcitrance is not about preservation of “Torah”, but rather about the preservation of the modern chareidi lifestyle, which is is dependent upon gov’t handouts and exemptions (but it is impolitic to say that out loud).
Regarding the existential threat: as long as it’s someone else’s son in the line of fire, why should they care? (and if they do happen to have any pangs of conscience about it, they can make themselves feel better by tying tzitzis for the soldiers…)
I think that may be the case about some, but many actually do feel that way. Either because of denial, or magical thinking. That doesn't make it any less problematic, (in some ways it's more difficult to deal with) but it's not the same as not believing it
As R' Slifkin has perceptively pointed out in the past, they may *believe* that they believe it, but when it comes to tachlis that all goes out the window.
(For example, they love to hock on "Torah protects", but when rockets threaten their yeshivos, they don't respond by learning harder, they move like anyone else would).
It reads like a political statement and very unbecoming of a תלמיד חכם.
Normally, in שאלות ותשובות Seforim, there are a few lines of the שאלה and then a long תשובה, bringing all sorts of sources that the פוסק has used to arrive at his decision. This record is extremely useful for later פוסקים to understand how the Rov weighed up all the pros and cons before arriving at his decision. This is often used by later פוסקים to extrapolate to a question that is not identical, but has some similarities.
When will someone address the fact that so many of these bochurim are not actually doing serious learning and that many of these yeshivas are way stations? The system that has developed creates a large cadre of young men, 18-21, who are doing nothing with their lives, neither learning, nor studying, nor serving. Yet so many of these discussions (such as in this thread), presume that the vast majority (or even all) of the charedi draft dodging bochurim are serious learners, which is farcical.
Both the post and the comments so far misunderstood key phrases. He's almost certainly not taking about Hamas and he does not say a word about "shutting down yeshivos." He points to the "evil of the nations" (not the evil nations) and the plural nations almost certainly means the anti semitic and yes anti Israel stances of governments around the world. If he were talking about Hamas he would have said enemy or something but would not have dignified them with "nation." And his concern is students being uprooted from yeshivos - not shutting them down - and the obvious harm to the community he expects will follow. The prayers are a response to governments around the world, including Israel, being the "others" who are oblivious to Gd's will and the purpose of Creation and are now threatening it. This was his point. Disagree all you want, but at least try to understand.
"Hamas wants to destroy Israel but can’t make it happen, whereas the Haredim do not want to destroy Israel but could enable it to happen." I plead guilty to having left the first comment. I thank Rav Slifkin for not deleting it and for not banning me from commenting. As far as I am concerned, intent is irrelevant. A Rodef does not have to have malicious intent to be a Rodef.
Hey Avi - Just curious - have you gunned down any Haredim today yet? Do you execute the Rabbis first, or last. Are women included in the rodfim category? After all, they are enabling the men to be rodef you. What about children - the future rodfim ?
Where do you live? I want to make sure I don't accidently stumble into your neighborhood wearing my black hat...
It is true that one's actions towards a rodef without malicious intent are at times meant to be the same as when he has such intent, as can be seen from sanhedrin 72b and Rambam's psak on that sugya of rodef katan in hilchos rotze'ach 1,6. However, it is seemingly reasonable to assume that one's perspective towards the person should be different, as can seemingly be seen from what yad rama writes in sanhedrin there: "לאו משום חיובא דידיה הוא דקטל ליה, אלא משום הצלה דהיאך". Perhaps with that in mind, the intensely hateful rhetoric sometimes expressed here can be toned down a bit. (Not to excuse hateful rhetoric on the other side of course.)
Seems to me, imputing murderous intent, the authentic meaning of רודף ,into Chareidi logistics is not wise. Use רודף in the sense it was meant, say a madman coming after you with a knife or a Hamas like terrorist org. trying to destroy your country.
Chareidim who refuse to serve in the military or refuse to support their families, while at the same time demanding monetary governmental support, should be deemed selfish ingrates. Calling Chareidim רודפים abridges their perfidy.
Two main relevant sugyas to the ideas you brought up are seemingly mesira and what Rambam talks about in yesodei hatorah 5,5 (which is based on a yerushalmi in terumos, see kesef mishne there, and is a machlokes rishonim how to poskin, see for example Rama yoreh de'ah157, towards the end of sif 1).
I don't know if Avi Rosenthal really meant that they are literally rodfim in the sense that we should be killing them though.
I am really impressed with this letter of Reb Dov's. You see the לשון חכמים מרפא, how he is careful to make his point without adding to it.
Hamas is רשעי אומות העולם, they are evil.
However, the אנשי השלטון are not evil, their plans are מזימות רשע, with a segol under the ר and a pasach under the ש.
Sadly, the uninformed have power and are liable to close down the Yeshivos as we know them. They are so ignorant, mostly, that they do not realize the dangers of these plans. But they must be thwarted anyway.
Why is having an equal draft "evil"? I can understand that from your perspective it is dangerous. But why evil?
My penultimate sentence dealt with your questions.
I don't understand. If there was a burden placed by the government unfairly on the Charedim, like extra taxes, of course they would be protesting that injustice. So, fairness is certainly a value. Why is it evil when other people demand fairness from Charedim?
Why is 'fairness certainly a value'?
And why is it the overriding value?
If it was, the world could not exist. Should we put everyone in equal chance of death in battle, regardless of capability, in the name of some value called 'fairness'?
Fairness is a value, but not the most important one. שלא תשתכח תורה מישראל is more important. Yeshivos are more important.
But charedi yeshivos are obviously not important to non-charedim. So why are they evil for wanting charedim to do the same as everyone else?
They are important on an absolute level. Like smoking is dangerous on an absolute level.
The fact that some people are ignorant doesn't change any facts. Facts do not depend on your knowledge of them,
First of all, I think it's important to be very careful when making that argument. When a situation is unfair, and the person benefitting from that disparity is trying to explain why fairness isn't an important enough value, that person may be too biased to be making an honest argument.
I think fairness is more important than you think. Treating others like you want to be treated is one of the most fundamental principles of the Torah. And no one wants to be treated unfairly. No one wants to put their lives at risk for those who are unwilling to make similar sacrifices for them.
In terms of fairness vs. ensuring Torah isn't lost... Going to the army won't cause Torah to be lost as we see from hesder yeshivos. I think that's a gross exaggeration used to rationalize a very difficult position.
Additionally, once we acknowledge that treating others the way we want to be treated is a fundamental value... Is Torah that causes us to abandon that value really Torah? Derech Eretz kadma leTorah and without that prerequisite, the very Torah we are trying to save becomes fundamentally flawed.
What does fairness have to do with 'treating others like you want to be treated'?
If a guest comes to my house, I serve them the food they want, not the food I want. 'Nobody wants to be treated unfairly' is an untrue argument. First among my requests is not 'fairness' but as I wish to be treated.
And you may not understand why Torah will be lost if the opportunity isn't granted to people to spend their formative years learning solely. But your lack of understanding does not change anything at all.
Btw, anyone who wants to spend his formative years learning instead of joining the army, may do so. It is perfectly fair.
Fairness is not a value nor possible on an individual level, even within a family. Not all my kids are doing the same number of days of Miluim, and that's fine.
But fairness *is* a value on a community level. A single community cannot decide that they are exempt from a communal responsibility, placing a greater and almost unbearable burden on everyone else.
So 'others' have to be fair, but you can't.
How convenient!
It's really a beautiful letter, שפתים ישק. But I don't think there is any danger of the seculars shutting down yeshivos. To the contrary, it is pathetic that they are focusing so much of their energy on shutting down yeshivos, a battle they can never win- all in the middle of a war against Hamas, and in a war for for global public opinion, which they are losing badly. It makes one feel sorry for them- how deluded can they be? We should daven that the seculars should emerge from their stupor and see the light of the Torah. And I think that is included in Rav Dov's letter also, ויזכנו לקבל את התורה באהבה ובשמחה- this is going on the seculars as well!
No one is trying to shut down yeshivot.
The money is taken (by implied threat of violence) from the Israeli taxpayer. It is not the automatic right of the yeshivot, or the charedim, to get that money. The charedim made a decision at some point that their institutions and society would survive thanks to the generosity, or freyer-dom, of the Israeli government and citizen. Good: Now they can live with that decision.
He wasn't talking about money. Yeshivos can survive without money from the seculars. He is talking about people who want to shut down the chareidi yeshiva system- היה לא תהיה
You love saying “the seculars,” don’t you?
For the record, I daven three times a day, and I pay plenty in taxes, including to support your precious yeshivot. So take your “seculars” and…
I don't think they want to shut down the Charedi yeshiva system either. They want Charedim to serve in the army with their Dati LeUmi and secular brothers to defend against a common genocidal enemy.
A demand to draft yeshiva bochurim for years is a demand to shut down the chareidi yeshiva system, which is all about uninterrupted learning. It would be like demanding 5 hours of college in the middle of the yeshiva day.
That is certainly part of the Charedi system, but not the only part. I don't think obligating all people who benefit from the protection of the army to also do their share in protecting Klal Yisroel, would tank the Charedi system. It may need to be modified to account for this new factor, but it's not all or nothing. We can adapt to real world situations and obligations and still survive and thrive.
If yeshivos don’t need money from “the seculars”, why are they so makpid about getting/taking it? 🤔
Again, the “switching-around-the-words-in-my-comments” thing is getting old…
But, as it happens, the answer to this particular question couldn’t be more simple: “rationalists” (as you call them) act the way we do b/c we believe there is a fundamental value of shared achrayus in Jewish society, and there is ample evidence at every level of our shared tradition (from Tana”ch, through the Talmud, through the rishonim, etc, etc) to support our belief.
I want to add that we already saw the tremendous empathy that Rav Dov had for our secular brothers and sisters in the conversation he had with the poor, afflicted soldier. https://matzav.com/watch-rav-landau-to-idf-officer-our-protection-derives-solely-from-torah/ He had such patience and repeatedly emphasized his concern for the plight of the captives. We can learn from our Gedolim how to relate to our brothers and sisters who have not yet seen the light of the Torah.
Empathy (lip service) is not enough. And in the absence of meaningful action, performative empathy is a bizayon: "oy, I have such empathy that your sons are dying on behalf of all of us..."
If you don't find empathy meaningful, then you are not a human being. You are a monster. I sincerely hope that most other seculars have at least a semblance of humanity, even if they have no great love for the Torah.
I’m a monster 👹
The point is, empathy might be nice, but it costs nothing. If you want to impress me, don’t tell me how empathetic chareidim are, tell me what they are sacrificing on behalf of k’lal yisrael.
Only somebody who has no human feelings whatsoever would put all human-feelings, like empathy, sympathy, love, on a cost-benefit basis. If you can't value empathy that doesn't pass your arbitrary cost-benefit test, then you are probably a psychopath.
The seculars? There are plenty of frum guys in the IDF who are leaving their families and risking their lives.
Rav Dov wasn't talking about the frum guys in the IDF, he was talking about the seculars trying to destroy chareidi yeshivos.
No one is trying to close down yeshivot. Stop over dramatizing, you sound like a 13-year-old girl.
Find out the difference between 'liable' and 'trying'. You may sound more knowledgeable and less sexist.
To be fair, not all 13-year-old girls use hysterical exaggeration the way you do.
He uses the שורש of ר-ש-ע. And he puts both "threats" in one letter. That's enough.
He also breathed oxygen while writing both.
Ironically, you cannot free yourself of that charge, as you weren't breathing nitrogen when you typed that. Neither was Nasrallah when he shot the rockets yesterday. You are all connected.
That's enough.
" you weren't breathing nitrogen when you typed that."
Yes he was. And so did you. We all do as nitrogen accounts for a majority of the air we breathe.
And so was Yihye Sinwar
That makes no sense, quite apart from the point Ephraim made about nitrogen.
For an (anonymous) troll who's ostensibly such a believer in the value of Torah study, you spend quite a lot of time in the comments on this blog. If you think this a more worthy use of your time then shteiging in bais midrash, I'd like to understand why you don't think picking up a gun in defense of your brethren is an equally worthy use of such time.
Maybe let's start by agreeing to the simple proposition that chareidim who claim an exemption who spend their time commenting on blogs and engaged in similar trivialities should join the army.
And, for the record, you're a coward, hiding behind a fake identity and unwilling to actually take a position under your own name, but I suppose it's no surprise, given the general cowardly, sinful, and nauseating conduct of the Israeli charedim that you defend.
I did the math and its probably about 20 minutes per week.
But you're right, it's more than it's worth.
"I did the math and its probably about 20 minutes per week."
Is that 'per pseudonym?' https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-holocaust-and-israel/comment/55715087
You may have saved a life with the Torah protection from that extra "20 minutes" per week, so I venture that you're lacking emunah in your own supposed beliefs. Real soldiers don't stop in middle of battle to comment on blogs.
You say that “the uninformed have power and are liable to close down the Yeshivos as we know them.” What makes you believe this? Is the government actually threatening their closure? The only question that I heard raised relates to government funding, and yeshivos can certainly operate without government funding, as they do everywhere else in the world.
"and yeshivos can certainly operate without government funding, as they do everywhere else in the world. "
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/2285023/major-crisis-school-shuts-down-others-raise-tuition-as-financial-woes-slam-the-chinuch-system.html
How does Hamas represent the "Umos Haolam"? I'm not quite clear on that.
It doesn't say רשעי אומות העולם. It says רשעת אומות העולם. It's protesting the evil of the nations and the evil of the government. It certainly looks like the two are comparable.
Rav Landau has forfeited his claim to be the Gadol Hador. A true Gadol would seek to foster dialogue and understanding among Jews. Instead he seeks to instigate and promote sinat chinam. The pronouncements of the "Charedi Gedolim" have been destructive and pathetic. We need the Charedi masses to speak out and take action, even against the advice of their Gedolim.
With all due respect, who made Rav Landau Gadol Hador? I don't remember that ever happening . . .
AFAIK Moshe Gafni.
I didn’t vote for him
The whole point of a Gadol is that someone who dedicates his life to Torah learns things about the world that the layman doesn't necessarily understand, and leads according to that knowledge.
Specifically, they see and connect to Hashem, Master of the universe, in ways that most of us can only dream of. Learning many hours straight with the proper yiraas Shamayim, and compounding that by years and years of such inhumane devotion to Hashem and His word opens up literal worlds of understanding about how this world really works.
The average charedi understands this model, and these Gedolim are his role models in life, and appreciates their leadership.
That being said, we don't follow them blindly, rather we have our own Rabbeim who lead us in the proper direction. I doubt my rabbeim would be exactly on the same page as Reb Dov in a lot of these details, and wouldn't necessarily defer to him in every situation. But that doesn't take away from his chashivus or greatness, and these posts and comments are the worse Lashon Hara possible as they reduce the reality of what's really important in this world which is unequivically: Avodas Hashem. As per the oft quoted Rabbeinu Yonah in Shaarei Teshuva 3:146(?), amongst dozens of other obvious statements about what Judaism is really about.
The proper forum for all these (important, yes important) grievances is not really supposed to be on social media, but with personal relationships with a truly great Rebbi who is like a Malach in your eyes (which is a personal feeling- everyone needs their own personal Rebbi). But social media has value to make change in larger waves. I just wished people like Natan would do this with the proper respect because the conservative ideology necessary to charediism needs outspoken people like him to fix the problems. But yet again, the posts and comments are those of an outsider who appreciates not what charedim stand for to begin with; hence all points made, despite their importance are unfortunately obsolete. I imagine if I sat down with anyone on the opposing side, we would see eye to eye on so many of the raging issues. But instead we're just fighting. It's just sad really.
".... opens up literal worlds of understanding about how this world really works." Yeah, I also used to believe that. Then I started looking at what the evidence actually shows (and what rabbinic literature itself actually claims).
I think this would be a great discussion to have. It would get down to the root of and sort out a lot of our disagreements.
My only question to you is, and I'm genuinely curious to hear the other side: what evidence and literature have you examined? Because my myriads of sources are pretty clear.
(From my POV I'd suggest that those who don't share the personal experience of kedusha and yiraah which comes from being heavily involved in עיון התורה and עבודת המוסר (and this takes hours upon hours ברציפות and years and years of detaching one's self from the all encompassing תאוות גוף and connecting with the other worldly הקב"ה), the sources are, by their very nature, hard to understand as the Rambam points out in the hakdama to his Moreh. But nonetheless they are actually quite clear. But I understand that my POV can be wrong.)
Tell me, let's consider the Gerrer Rebbe, whom many if not all of his chassidim consider him to be the epitome of da'as torah and all that goes with it.
Can you, "hand on heart" say, he is the epitome of 'personal experience of kedusha and yiraah which comes from being heavily involved in עיון התורה and עבודת המוסר (and this takes hours upon hours ברציפות and years and years of detaching one's self from the all encompassing תאוות גוף and connecting with the other worldly הקב"ה)". Even with his Rolls Royce and real estate dealings?
What about the Squarer Rebbe who eats with solid silver cutlery?
The number of people around to day that meet that definition is, zero give or take a few? So practically speaking, its all non-applicable, anyway.
"Learning many hours straight with the proper yiraas Shamayim ... opens up literal worlds of understanding about how this world really works."
How do you know this?
there are tons of sources from rishonim and achronim who describe this. the rambam does it pretty well in the endish of part 3 of moreh, to list one
The Rambam who says you need knowledge of the natural sciences? And that an old person should not be on the Sanhedrin? And who is against magic and mysticism? That's the authority you're quoting to defend the contemporary charedi idea of Daas Torah?
yes. the rambam's ultimate goal of removing one's self from body and entering the world of the neshama is very much in line with the chareidi goal. i'm not sure there is a single other group on the planet that is as close to the rambam's version of judaism as charedim try to be. there are plenty of disagreements on plenty of (even significant) details, but as far as what we are trying to get to with out torah and yiraah, sure, the rambam would be on the same page for much of that.
that being said, the issues in the chareidi world are numerous and there are many important things that need to change, in which we'd probably agree and a large percentage of items. but the core of chareidi ideology, that it's literally all about getting closer to Hashem (which is most effective through being immersed in His torah), and not just following the commandments and being good people, but living a life where His presence can at least somewhat be felt (think of your best shmoneh esrei), that was the rambam's strongest core, and that is the chareidi's strongest core.
i'm not going to pretend that there are plenty of chareidim who don't even come close to fitting this bill, and that non-chareidim don't have people of this nature. and i think if we'd all come together sharing all our maalos, we'd all go a long way. but people like you don't feel that feeling close to Hashem is the strongest value. if you did, you'd probably not have such a hard time understanding why we need a yeshiva system of "kulo torah". not because everyone there is going to live their max, but (a) a system which allows those who try to live to the max, which absolutely is a hundred times harder in an exposed enviroment, and (b) it allow our young ideologues to pursue and appreciate what such a life means so that if they should ever enter the outside world (as many should eventually), they will be equipped with the proper chashivus for every moment of torah and avoda. these messages are very hard to soak in with other messages being floated around.
and again, this does not mean that the system should stay as is (unless for political reasons, give a bit and they'll take too much). there are too many kollelim where the guys aren't learning as they should and especially when there is a war like this, things probably should change. but in context of appreciating what we're about.
one last remark, many argue that we are not about getting close to Hashem; we are just about the old academics of torah learning, and others would even say that we are wasting tie with piilpul (see test's comments about these things). and i agree that there is even a large percentage who take these paths. but at the top, that isn't the message. and anyone in the yeshivos who is serious about their growth knows this, and at least in america, this approach is the standard; you can ask anyone here.
"the rambam's ultimate goal of removing one's self from body and entering the world of the neshama is very much in line with the chareidi goal. "
1) No it isn't. Marriage, for example, is all about money.
2) Even if it is, that has nothing to do with charedi gedolim allegedly having a deeper insight into the world.
"the rambam's ultimate goal of removing one's self from body and entering the world of the neshama is very much in line with the chareidi goal"
Anybody can have goals. You think the 'goals' of religious zionism is not as equally valid? What about the 'goals' of chardalim?
The point is, that charedi life 99% of the time for 99% of its adherents is nowhere near those goals, so you are just waffling meaninglessly.
"and at least in america, this approach is the standard; you can ask anyone here."
As evidenced by the ads for all those luxuries in the charedi american press. Not.
" the rambam's ultimate goal of removing one's self from body and entering the world of the neshama is very much in line with the chareidi goal."
Goal.
But what about the means?
How does his parable of the King's palace square with Charedi hashkafa? (Bonus spoiler question: How does it square with other Torah perspectives?)
I can assure, yet again (assuming that they say what you claim they say), that there is probably nobody alive today who meets the standard set out in those rishonim and acharonim. It's all meant theoretically, not practically.
"The whole point of a Gadol is that someone who dedicates his life to Torah learns things about the world that the layman doesn't necessarily understand, and leads according to that knowledge."
That's it?
"... opens up literal worlds of understanding about how this world really works..."
Until it doesn't, and then its 'a time of hester ponim', or 'the unfathomable ways of Hashem', 'tzadik v'ra lo' and suchlike......
The contradiction between 'its the unfathomable ways of Hashem' and 'opens up literal worlds of understanding about how this world really works..." should be self-evident to any thinker!
Ummmm...
lol…inhumane devotion….do you actually think that is what HaShem wants from us…? To be inhumane and cling only to Him…???
ואהבת את ה"א בכל לבבך ובכל נפשך ובכל מאדך
I guess that’s why Abraham interrupted his conversation and dveikus to and with HaShem to offer hospitality to 3 idolators…..
?
is that supposed to be a "gotcha"? i'm not here for games.
what avraham did is not at all inconsistent with that pasuk, or with the rambam's idea that the ultimate goal of olam hazeh is dveikus with Hashem. where are you trying to say, that the rambam doesn't say what I say he says? i mean, its an open book, you can read it. and you can then refute him from the gemara with avraham if you feel so strongly about this... לא עלי תלונותיכם
"is that supposed to be a "gotcha"?"
Maybe. Why not answer it?
"where are you trying to say, that the rambam doesn't say what I say he says? i mean, its an open book, you can read it. "
Why not answer his question?
דעת בעלי בתים איז די הפך פון דעת תורה
I mean, perhaps this aphorism is not wrong, but what if “דעת בעלי בתים” is what’s needed on “balabtish” issues?
Why is closing Yeshivos a "balabatish" issue? Imho, I would think the yardstick of how important the Yeshivos are is something those who appreciate the proper worth of Torah are to know.
yah but maybe they don't fully appreciate the sakana and/or needs of the army and so on.
personally, i agree with you, because i think the need of the chareidi yeshiva system of כולו תורה will be destroyed slowly if we give in- we give them a finger they take a hand- but I strongly hear @just curious's point...
I’m not referring to “closing Yeshivos” as a balabatish issue, and *no one* is talking about closing yeshivos mikol makom!
But I would consider allocation of government resources, military manpower, and the like to be “balabatish issues”.
Someones living in a fantasy
You have been nebach brainwashed.
It's odd, because just the other day the lawyer representing the charedi view told the court that charedim are entitled to get food from the government just as terrorists in jail get food from the government. The fact that he made an equivalence between charedim and terrorists did not go unnoticed in the press.
(Yes, I know, he was making a kal v'chomer. Of course, if you're going to make a kal v'chomer like that you can also have pointed out to you that non-charedim who aren't in jail don't get food from the government.)
I wouldn't say that charedim want to see Israel destroyed. But the fact remains that the existence of Israel poses a very serious theological challenge to them, one which would not exist if Israel weren't there. Which can make one wonder what subconscious influence that may have on them.
(It should be pointed out that the existence of the State of Israel poses theological challenges, or similar challenges, to Christians, to Muslims, to secular types, and to various stripes of secular Jews both in and, especially, outside of Israel. So the charedim have a lot of company.)
" just the other day the lawyer representing the charedi view told the court that charedim are entitled to get food from the government just as terrorists in jail get food from the government. The fact that he made an equivalence between charedim and terrorists did not go unnoticed in the press.... Yes, I know, he was making a kal v'chomer."
Incorrect. Withholding such food from imprisoned terrorists would be against international "law" and would thus be a violation of the שלש שבועות - שלא ימרדו באומות. Furthermore, violating the oath is ייהרג ואל יעבור. The same can't be said for withholding food from able body Yeshiva students. The קל וחומר would thus be in the other direction.
Yes, the irony has been remarked upon that charedim today owe their very existence to two rather leftist ideas, namely multiculturalism (it's OK if you decided to dress in a black hat and long peyot, we're all different) and the welfare state.
Lots of them. The US. The UK. Australia. In no counties where chareidim live are they forced to serve in the army.
In no other country in which chareidim reside are they (and all their coreligionists) under ongoing existential threat, necessitating compulsory military service to provide for the common defense.
Also, in no other country in the world (even in the welfare states of Europe) do chareidim live like their Israeli counterparts. In fact, I have frequently heard a sharp distinction drawn btwn native Israeli chareidim and “Anglo-chareidim” (even those who have made aliyah).
uh, yeah, they live better in chutz l'aretz because they are more educated and work!
There are plenty of really poor Charedim (more chassidim than others) in the US as well.
I didn't seriously think you would ban or delete the comment but I was surprised that you didn't at least flag the comment with a warning like you have done in the past when the same commentor made similar hateful statements. His comment was hateful and borders on incitement. I was going to say that it is just one step short of calling charedim rodfim (which IS incitement, as Yigal Amir has shown), but I see he beat me to it and actually DID call charedim rodfim in the comments below. You didn't delete that either so I guess you changed your policy to allow all comments including calls for genocide - as long as charedim are the target.
Calling something evil is not anywhere close to the same thing. It is not hate speech and is not anywhere close to incitement. And your comment about equating two things by putting them in the same sentence is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard - sorry.
How would you feel its the opposite? If people would protest "the evil of the Hamas massacre and the evil of not serving in the army with the rest of Klal Yisroel". You wouldn't find that sentence incredibly inappropriate?
No I don't find it inappropriate and it is what I would expect. I would even expect an unhinged lunatic to suggest that all charedim are rodfim worse than Hamas, implying that they should all be killed. What I wouldn't expect is for such a comment to go almost unnoticed. NS didn't even flag it and the only pushback was "Perhaps with that in mind, the intensely hateful rhetoric sometimes expressed here can be toned down a bit." (Ya think?) and "I don't know if Avi Rosenthal really meant that they are literally rodfim in the sense that we should be killing them though." Well no, you wouldn't want to spend the rest of your life in jail. Just hate them more than Hamas but don't actually commit mass murder...
I don't find that sentence inappropriate at all. It would be the view of somebody who doesn't want to call chareidim evil, but finds their resistance to service evil. Much less inappropriate than thousands of stuff on this blog, and making the main focus of the war your chareidi enemies.
You ascribe an infallibility to Gedolim that is wholly undeserved. Charedi community members need to see past the self serving smokescreen of their "leadership" and assert Torah values of kol Yisrael areivim zeh bazeh. Remember Moshe Rabbeinu's admonition to the two tribes who wished to settle in Ever Hayarden. Take responsibility for ALL your brothers.
Is that meant for me?
Hamas wants to destroy Israel but can’t make it happen, whereas the Haredim do not want to destroy Israel but could enable it to happen.
Powerful line. I wonder what it would take for a change in awareness amongst Haredi leaders to see that nobody is trying to destroy Torah, but that there is an existential threat
The fundamental problem is, no one is actually “trying to destroy Torah” and chareidi leaders know it.
If they were honest, they would admit that their recalcitrance is not about preservation of “Torah”, but rather about the preservation of the modern chareidi lifestyle, which is is dependent upon gov’t handouts and exemptions (but it is impolitic to say that out loud).
Regarding the existential threat: as long as it’s someone else’s son in the line of fire, why should they care? (and if they do happen to have any pangs of conscience about it, they can make themselves feel better by tying tzitzis for the soldiers…)
I think that may be the case about some, but many actually do feel that way. Either because of denial, or magical thinking. That doesn't make it any less problematic, (in some ways it's more difficult to deal with) but it's not the same as not believing it
As R' Slifkin has perceptively pointed out in the past, they may *believe* that they believe it, but when it comes to tachlis that all goes out the window.
(For example, they love to hock on "Torah protects", but when rockets threaten their yeshivos, they don't respond by learning harder, they move like anyone else would).
It reads like a political statement and very unbecoming of a תלמיד חכם.
Normally, in שאלות ותשובות Seforim, there are a few lines of the שאלה and then a long תשובה, bringing all sorts of sources that the פוסק has used to arrive at his decision. This record is extremely useful for later פוסקים to understand how the Rov weighed up all the pros and cons before arriving at his decision. This is often used by later פוסקים to extrapolate to a question that is not identical, but has some similarities.
Is this still the case in contemporary chareidi שאלות ותשובות sefarim?
When will someone address the fact that so many of these bochurim are not actually doing serious learning and that many of these yeshivas are way stations? The system that has developed creates a large cadre of young men, 18-21, who are doing nothing with their lives, neither learning, nor studying, nor serving. Yet so many of these discussions (such as in this thread), presume that the vast majority (or even all) of the charedi draft dodging bochurim are serious learners, which is farcical.
Why are all these comments by "Shower Food" being removed?
Not by me
I didn’t think so. But it’s odd, typically when someone deletes his own comment, I think it says “deleted” rather than “Removed”.
I think it would be it very constructive if we could disentangle "Lithuanian" from "Yeshiva world".
What do you mean?
Both the post and the comments so far misunderstood key phrases. He's almost certainly not taking about Hamas and he does not say a word about "shutting down yeshivos." He points to the "evil of the nations" (not the evil nations) and the plural nations almost certainly means the anti semitic and yes anti Israel stances of governments around the world. If he were talking about Hamas he would have said enemy or something but would not have dignified them with "nation." And his concern is students being uprooted from yeshivos - not shutting them down - and the obvious harm to the community he expects will follow. The prayers are a response to governments around the world, including Israel, being the "others" who are oblivious to Gd's will and the purpose of Creation and are now threatening it. This was his point. Disagree all you want, but at least try to understand.
No, אומות in chareidi speak just means goyim. I dont think rav landau differentiates between hamas and other countries.
"... whereas the Haredim do not want to destroy Israel but could enable it to happen. And they are determinedly on the way to doing so."
----------------------
Pogo comes to Israel.
It's like the Christians pretending to be Jewish
Let's throw them out
Where's the thumbs down icon?
"Hamas wants to destroy Israel but can’t make it happen, whereas the Haredim do not want to destroy Israel but could enable it to happen." I plead guilty to having left the first comment. I thank Rav Slifkin for not deleting it and for not banning me from commenting. As far as I am concerned, intent is irrelevant. A Rodef does not have to have malicious intent to be a Rodef.
Hey Avi - Just curious - have you gunned down any Haredim today yet? Do you execute the Rabbis first, or last. Are women included in the rodfim category? After all, they are enabling the men to be rodef you. What about children - the future rodfim ?
Where do you live? I want to make sure I don't accidently stumble into your neighborhood wearing my black hat...
It is true that one's actions towards a rodef without malicious intent are at times meant to be the same as when he has such intent, as can be seen from sanhedrin 72b and Rambam's psak on that sugya of rodef katan in hilchos rotze'ach 1,6. However, it is seemingly reasonable to assume that one's perspective towards the person should be different, as can seemingly be seen from what yad rama writes in sanhedrin there: "לאו משום חיובא דידיה הוא דקטל ליה, אלא משום הצלה דהיאך". Perhaps with that in mind, the intensely hateful rhetoric sometimes expressed here can be toned down a bit. (Not to excuse hateful rhetoric on the other side of course.)
@Moshe Averick,
Seems to me, imputing murderous intent, the authentic meaning of רודף ,into Chareidi logistics is not wise. Use רודף in the sense it was meant, say a madman coming after you with a knife or a Hamas like terrorist org. trying to destroy your country.
Chareidim who refuse to serve in the military or refuse to support their families, while at the same time demanding monetary governmental support, should be deemed selfish ingrates. Calling Chareidim רודפים abridges their perfidy.
Pretty sure you're talking to the wrong person. Unless you're saying that I should not have accepted Avi's premise when responding to him.
By definition, a רודף is not a שב ואל תעשה.
Now, the question remains: what's the din of a רודף בשינוי?
Or how about a רודף בגרמא?
Two main relevant sugyas to the ideas you brought up are seemingly mesira and what Rambam talks about in yesodei hatorah 5,5 (which is based on a yerushalmi in terumos, see kesef mishne there, and is a machlokes rishonim how to poskin, see for example Rama yoreh de'ah157, towards the end of sif 1).
I don't know if Avi Rosenthal really meant that they are literally rodfim in the sense that we should be killing them though.